I've heard the argument made that sure if you work more you'll make more money but the "bracha" won't be there. God preordains how much "bracha" (ill-defined word) you will experience from your money but not necessarily how much money you will receive.
So while person A does minimal hishtadlus and person B does more - and perhaps makes more money - that extra money ostensibly goes to lawyers and bills etc.
Of course there is no evidence to support this assertion but c'mon "I know tons of people..."
I remember being very perturbed by this whilst studying in yeshiva. I finally summoned the courage to ask a certain Rav Moshe Stav. Expecting some profound explanation, his answer was short and simple: ‘we see it doesn’t quite work this way’, and off he strode. I felt very sheepish at having asked such a dumb question, but it was an important life lesson.
I wonder if we can really claim a factual correlation between hishtadlus and parnasa. I think that many, even irreligious people, would claim that the world is a very unfair place, and some with little effort do incredibly well, whilst other who work really hard, see little success.
“I’m sure that creative Gemara minds can come up with some sort of intellectual gymnastics to resolve it. But have they even thought about it?”
In this paragraph, you’ve conceded that you’re approaching this with bad faith, and have already made up your mind that you’re not willing to take the other side seriously.
This actually could have been a normal post, had it not been framed as a "chareidi" question. I mean, how to modern orthodox deal with this question? Do they think parnassa comes only from your hishtadlus? What do they do about all the מאמרי חז"ל that say the exact opposite?
Anyhow, to answer the question itself, I think most chareidim would tell you that there is no correlation between the amount of hishtadlus and the amount of money you will get, exactly as you quoted in the name of Rav Shteinman. The chovos halevovos elaborates on this.
Now there is obviously more to say about this. The Chovos Halevovos says you do need to do some hishtadlus, and the alter of Novahrdok famously disagrees. I wouls think you need to be on a high madreiga to get parnassa with zero hishtadlus, because that would be the equivalent of having a miracle happen for you. And generally the rule is that Hashem does not do miracles, עולם כמנהגו נוהג.
I don't see the problem with this approach. Defintiely in my own personal life I see little correlation between my hishtadlus and my parnassa. I can't speak on Natan's behalf.
In the charedi world maybe it's divinely granted. In the real world it's a combination of preparation, hard work, connections, and other factors that where magical thinking has no measurable effect. Ever since Adam and Eve left Gan Edan we have earned our bread by the sweat of our brows just like Hashem said
Back in my more charedi days I gave this a lot of thought. I fully bought into 1, so 2 definitely bothered me. A lot. Where I ended up was something like this:
The axis that you are measuring "parnasa" for 1 and 2 are fundamentally different. 1 would be parnasa in the sense of life satisfaction, having what you need when you need it, being happy with what you have. For 2 you have parnasa in the sense of wealth. So you can have a correlation between chasing money and having money, while at the same time having no correlation between chasing money and getting where you are "meant to be".
While I can see reasons why that's not a satisfying answer for some, and you could argue that being more economically productive and driven is a good thing for society at large, ultimately there is some truth in it - at least in the modern welfare state world we live in. And it doesn't just apply to charedim either. Some people have a simpler attitude to life where they don't stress about money, and basically just make do with what they have. For such people, you could argue "maavirin memenu ol malchus veol derech eretz" (obviously in a sense). I am not one of those people, but I sometimes wish I was.
While the official 'party line' may be that the answer to 1 is yes, if you speak to the average common man sitting in a random row in shul, there's a really good chance he'll say the answer is no, or he'll say that while parnasa is ultimately in Hashem's hands, what we do certainly makes a difference in large part. People are not as single-minded as they seem from the pages of Mishpacha or the latest shul lecha dodi dvar torah pamphlet. And even many chareidi rabbis understand that practically speaking, there is nuance, and we must take the real world reality into account.
Many people will speak of the truth of the abstract idea of Hashem controlling the world; some might also point out situations where someone did or didn't do hishtadlus and the outcome was different than expected; and a smaller number of people might also mention as an abstract idea that a person with pure, absolute emuna would require very minimal hishtadlus, but even many in the last group probably understand that in practical reality this is almost non-existent, or perhaps there might be a small number of people where this idea is a partial reality for them, but not entirely, since almost no one is on the level of Rashbi (Berachot 35b).
For most people it's not a matter of intellectual gymnastics. They don't think very deeply, nor in stark black and white terms, and are comfortable with the abstract idea of control of the world by Hashem while they think of a large amount of the day to day facts on the ground as being due to worldly cause and effect, and to what they themselves do to bring about some of the effect.
You claim "classical Judaism would generally disagree with the first point" ((viz, that "parnasa is completely determined by Hashem based on spiritual reasons, and utterly unaffected by physical hishtadlus."
Leave aside the false straw man dichotomies, so typical of this blog, framing things in simplistic black and white. ("completely determined", "Utterly unaffected") Ask it the way a normal person would, whether the PRIMARY determinant is spiritual or toil. Of course, like most things in Judaism, there are enough sources to support either side of the debate, if a debate there is. And in no way, shape, or form does classical Judaism disagree that parnasah is primarily pre-determined by God.
In fact, if you're interested in surveys, don't ask about Charedim, which the readership of this blog can't help you with anyway. Ask it about modox. Try to determine their beliefs, and if it turns out they think its primarily hishtadlus based, ask how they reconcile their beliefs with the many contrary statements found in both the Bible and Chazal. I’m sure that creative doctors, lawyers, and accountants can come up with some sort of intellectual gymnastics to resolve it. But have they even thought about it?
You left out a 3rd possibility that is mentioned in chazal. The Gemara in Moed Katan 28a states: . אָמַר רָבָא: חַיֵּי, בְּנֵי וּמְזוֹנֵי, לָא בִּזְכוּתָא תַּלְיָא מִילְּתָא, אֶלָּא בְּמַזָּלָא תַּלְיָא מִילְּתָא.
Tosafos at the end of kiddushin takes this very seriously. The Mishna 82a states: רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר לְעוֹלָם יְלַמֵּד אָדָם אֶת בְּנוֹ אוּמָּנוּת נְקִיָּה וְקַלָּה וְיִתְפַּלֵּל לְמִי שֶׁהָעוֹשֶׁר וְהַנְּכָסִים שֶׁלּוֹ שֶׁאֵין אוּמָּנוּת שֶׁאֵין בָּהּ עֲנִיּוּת וַעֲשִׁירוּת שֶׁלֹּא עֲנִיּוּת מִן הָאוּמָּנוּת וְלֹא עֲשִׁירוּת מִן הָאוּמָּנוּת אֶלָּא הַכֹּל לְפִי זְכוּתוֹ
Tosafos there comments: אלא הכל לפי זכותו - פירוש לפי מזלו דבני וחיי ומזוני לאו בזכותא תליא מילתא אלא במזלא תליא מילתא:
So in fact there is an opinion that your livelihood is based not in your hishtadlus and not on your spiritual accomplishments but rather on your mazal. Some people are decreed to be rich and some poor.
I'll introduce another wrinkle - what about the concept of "Hashem leads one along the path they choose" and bechira in general?
Consider the following common scenario: a bright yeshiva guy is meeting with his rosh yeshiva to discuss his future life plans. He is torn between pursuing kollel/chinuch or medical school. The pros and cons of both options are weighed. One of which is very obviously money. The simple truth is that this person has the option of CHOOSING to make more money or LESS money.
It seems like when people say "It doesn't matter what you do, you'll make the make same either way" it's in the context of encouraging people to focus more of their efforts on spiritual pursuits, and less on working, not to make an airtight philosophical statement. I think deep down, everyone knows the more you work, the more money you make.
I don’t know much about the mindset of the Israeli chareidi community but they can’t be lumped together with the American yeshivish community in general and particularly in regards to this issue. Many ( perhaps even most) members of the Yeshivish community are a lot more practical than you give them credit for.
I’ll try: those who stay in learning are on a higher madreigah. They are thus judged more harshly for their misdeeds. Also they are rewarded for their ameilus by having all of their punishment extracted in Olam Hazeh so as to preserve their Olam Haba. Finally, for them, less Parnassah is a reward because it keeps them focused on Torah and not cars. R Steinman knew all this, but he also knew not to say it because those starting out would be on a lower level and would not understand and might be discouraged from pursuing this righteous path.
Hashem decides. However, sometimes, He takes into consideration whether the person did the amount of hishtadlut expected of him.
It could actually be that someone on a high spiritual level will receive less as he is not so interested in material things. Once, a man asked Rav Aryeh Levine if he should look for a better paying job. He told Rav Aryeh, who had a much lower salary, how much he earned and that it was before taxes. Rav Aryeh said "that is not enough for you". On the other hand, another man was told that in his present job he had honor, which Rav Aryeh did not want at all for himself,
I've heard the argument made that sure if you work more you'll make more money but the "bracha" won't be there. God preordains how much "bracha" (ill-defined word) you will experience from your money but not necessarily how much money you will receive.
So while person A does minimal hishtadlus and person B does more - and perhaps makes more money - that extra money ostensibly goes to lawyers and bills etc.
Of course there is no evidence to support this assertion but c'mon "I know tons of people..."
I remember being very perturbed by this whilst studying in yeshiva. I finally summoned the courage to ask a certain Rav Moshe Stav. Expecting some profound explanation, his answer was short and simple: ‘we see it doesn’t quite work this way’, and off he strode. I felt very sheepish at having asked such a dumb question, but it was an important life lesson.
See happygolucky's take on this post here:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/its-all-greek-to-me
I wonder if we can really claim a factual correlation between hishtadlus and parnasa. I think that many, even irreligious people, would claim that the world is a very unfair place, and some with little effort do incredibly well, whilst other who work really hard, see little success.
“I’m sure that creative Gemara minds can come up with some sort of intellectual gymnastics to resolve it. But have they even thought about it?”
In this paragraph, you’ve conceded that you’re approaching this with bad faith, and have already made up your mind that you’re not willing to take the other side seriously.
This actually could have been a normal post, had it not been framed as a "chareidi" question. I mean, how to modern orthodox deal with this question? Do they think parnassa comes only from your hishtadlus? What do they do about all the מאמרי חז"ל that say the exact opposite?
Anyhow, to answer the question itself, I think most chareidim would tell you that there is no correlation between the amount of hishtadlus and the amount of money you will get, exactly as you quoted in the name of Rav Shteinman. The chovos halevovos elaborates on this.
Now there is obviously more to say about this. The Chovos Halevovos says you do need to do some hishtadlus, and the alter of Novahrdok famously disagrees. I wouls think you need to be on a high madreiga to get parnassa with zero hishtadlus, because that would be the equivalent of having a miracle happen for you. And generally the rule is that Hashem does not do miracles, עולם כמנהגו נוהג.
I don't see the problem with this approach. Defintiely in my own personal life I see little correlation between my hishtadlus and my parnassa. I can't speak on Natan's behalf.
In the charedi world maybe it's divinely granted. In the real world it's a combination of preparation, hard work, connections, and other factors that where magical thinking has no measurable effect. Ever since Adam and Eve left Gan Edan we have earned our bread by the sweat of our brows just like Hashem said
To borrow from a classic Muslim story:
"I don't understand. My camel ran away!"
"Did you tie it up?"
"I trusted in G-d."
"Trust in G-d, but first tether your camel."
Back in my more charedi days I gave this a lot of thought. I fully bought into 1, so 2 definitely bothered me. A lot. Where I ended up was something like this:
The axis that you are measuring "parnasa" for 1 and 2 are fundamentally different. 1 would be parnasa in the sense of life satisfaction, having what you need when you need it, being happy with what you have. For 2 you have parnasa in the sense of wealth. So you can have a correlation between chasing money and having money, while at the same time having no correlation between chasing money and getting where you are "meant to be".
While I can see reasons why that's not a satisfying answer for some, and you could argue that being more economically productive and driven is a good thing for society at large, ultimately there is some truth in it - at least in the modern welfare state world we live in. And it doesn't just apply to charedim either. Some people have a simpler attitude to life where they don't stress about money, and basically just make do with what they have. For such people, you could argue "maavirin memenu ol malchus veol derech eretz" (obviously in a sense). I am not one of those people, but I sometimes wish I was.
While the official 'party line' may be that the answer to 1 is yes, if you speak to the average common man sitting in a random row in shul, there's a really good chance he'll say the answer is no, or he'll say that while parnasa is ultimately in Hashem's hands, what we do certainly makes a difference in large part. People are not as single-minded as they seem from the pages of Mishpacha or the latest shul lecha dodi dvar torah pamphlet. And even many chareidi rabbis understand that practically speaking, there is nuance, and we must take the real world reality into account.
Many people will speak of the truth of the abstract idea of Hashem controlling the world; some might also point out situations where someone did or didn't do hishtadlus and the outcome was different than expected; and a smaller number of people might also mention as an abstract idea that a person with pure, absolute emuna would require very minimal hishtadlus, but even many in the last group probably understand that in practical reality this is almost non-existent, or perhaps there might be a small number of people where this idea is a partial reality for them, but not entirely, since almost no one is on the level of Rashbi (Berachot 35b).
For most people it's not a matter of intellectual gymnastics. They don't think very deeply, nor in stark black and white terms, and are comfortable with the abstract idea of control of the world by Hashem while they think of a large amount of the day to day facts on the ground as being due to worldly cause and effect, and to what they themselves do to bring about some of the effect.
You claim "classical Judaism would generally disagree with the first point" ((viz, that "parnasa is completely determined by Hashem based on spiritual reasons, and utterly unaffected by physical hishtadlus."
Leave aside the false straw man dichotomies, so typical of this blog, framing things in simplistic black and white. ("completely determined", "Utterly unaffected") Ask it the way a normal person would, whether the PRIMARY determinant is spiritual or toil. Of course, like most things in Judaism, there are enough sources to support either side of the debate, if a debate there is. And in no way, shape, or form does classical Judaism disagree that parnasah is primarily pre-determined by God.
In fact, if you're interested in surveys, don't ask about Charedim, which the readership of this blog can't help you with anyway. Ask it about modox. Try to determine their beliefs, and if it turns out they think its primarily hishtadlus based, ask how they reconcile their beliefs with the many contrary statements found in both the Bible and Chazal. I’m sure that creative doctors, lawyers, and accountants can come up with some sort of intellectual gymnastics to resolve it. But have they even thought about it?
You left out a 3rd possibility that is mentioned in chazal. The Gemara in Moed Katan 28a states: . אָמַר רָבָא: חַיֵּי, בְּנֵי וּמְזוֹנֵי, לָא בִּזְכוּתָא תַּלְיָא מִילְּתָא, אֶלָּא בְּמַזָּלָא תַּלְיָא מִילְּתָא.
Tosafos at the end of kiddushin takes this very seriously. The Mishna 82a states: רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר לְעוֹלָם יְלַמֵּד אָדָם אֶת בְּנוֹ אוּמָּנוּת נְקִיָּה וְקַלָּה וְיִתְפַּלֵּל לְמִי שֶׁהָעוֹשֶׁר וְהַנְּכָסִים שֶׁלּוֹ שֶׁאֵין אוּמָּנוּת שֶׁאֵין בָּהּ עֲנִיּוּת וַעֲשִׁירוּת שֶׁלֹּא עֲנִיּוּת מִן הָאוּמָּנוּת וְלֹא עֲשִׁירוּת מִן הָאוּמָּנוּת אֶלָּא הַכֹּל לְפִי זְכוּתוֹ
Tosafos there comments: אלא הכל לפי זכותו - פירוש לפי מזלו דבני וחיי ומזוני לאו בזכותא תליא מילתא אלא במזלא תליא מילתא:
So in fact there is an opinion that your livelihood is based not in your hishtadlus and not on your spiritual accomplishments but rather on your mazal. Some people are decreed to be rich and some poor.
I'll introduce another wrinkle - what about the concept of "Hashem leads one along the path they choose" and bechira in general?
Consider the following common scenario: a bright yeshiva guy is meeting with his rosh yeshiva to discuss his future life plans. He is torn between pursuing kollel/chinuch or medical school. The pros and cons of both options are weighed. One of which is very obviously money. The simple truth is that this person has the option of CHOOSING to make more money or LESS money.
It seems like when people say "It doesn't matter what you do, you'll make the make same either way" it's in the context of encouraging people to focus more of their efforts on spiritual pursuits, and less on working, not to make an airtight philosophical statement. I think deep down, everyone knows the more you work, the more money you make.
The Ramchal writes #1. How would he answer #2? Was the correlation less obvious in his day?
I don’t know much about the mindset of the Israeli chareidi community but they can’t be lumped together with the American yeshivish community in general and particularly in regards to this issue. Many ( perhaps even most) members of the Yeshivish community are a lot more practical than you give them credit for.
I’ll try: those who stay in learning are on a higher madreigah. They are thus judged more harshly for their misdeeds. Also they are rewarded for their ameilus by having all of their punishment extracted in Olam Hazeh so as to preserve their Olam Haba. Finally, for them, less Parnassah is a reward because it keeps them focused on Torah and not cars. R Steinman knew all this, but he also knew not to say it because those starting out would be on a lower level and would not understand and might be discouraged from pursuing this righteous path.
Hashem decides. However, sometimes, He takes into consideration whether the person did the amount of hishtadlut expected of him.
It could actually be that someone on a high spiritual level will receive less as he is not so interested in material things. Once, a man asked Rav Aryeh Levine if he should look for a better paying job. He told Rav Aryeh, who had a much lower salary, how much he earned and that it was before taxes. Rav Aryeh said "that is not enough for you". On the other hand, another man was told that in his present job he had honor, which Rav Aryeh did not want at all for himself,