I've heard the argument made that sure if you work more you'll make more money but the "bracha" won't be there. God preordains how much "bracha" (ill-defined word) you will experience from your money but not necessarily how much money you will receive.
So while person A does minimal hishtadlus and person B does more - and perhaps makes more money - that extra money ostensibly goes to lawyers and bills etc.
Of course there is no evidence to support this assertion but c'mon "I know tons of people..."
I remember being very perturbed by this whilst studying in yeshiva. I finally summoned the courage to ask a certain Rav Moshe Stav. Expecting some profound explanation, his answer was short and simple: ‘we see it doesn’t quite work this way’, and off he strode. I felt very sheepish at having asked such a dumb question, but it was an important life lesson.
Intellectual honestly, in a nutshell. Accept a plain reality, even if it disagrees with one’s instruction manual for how God ought to run the world. Forget the acrobatics… and move on with life.
I find it curious that one can observe this as a fact, but then stop there. If we don't know how something works, it's possible that it's a so called "black box".
In other words, input is entered and output exits and we're unsure as to why a given stimulus generated a given response. It could be that there's a good reason why X produces X' why Y produces Y' and it could be that there's no good reason, and we just need more information to figure it out. Or it could be that there is no good reason, and that the correlation is absent. A third possibility is that there's a good reason but that the information necessary to figure it out is so astronomically massive that virtually no amount of information would give us sufficient basis for then figuring out the pattern. So if we were unfamiliar with pi, let's say, and when a digit was entered (let's say 192) the corresponding digit in pi (the 192nd digit in pi) was generated, how long would it take us to figure this out? Well, I'm not a mathematician, but I suppose there are infinite examples of infinitely repeating decimal sequences, we might never be able to figure out a given pattern, even though it's an actual pattern.
So maybe we can figure things out and maybe we can't and maybe when we can't, it can be because we can't yet or because we won't ever, either because the time commitment is too large (and so the pattern is indiscernible) or because there's actually no pattern. With AI, we may have a chance to figure out previously indiscernible patterns, but maybe another level of AI is necessary to figure out the next level of indiscernible things.
I wonder that more people don't consider things this way.
That post avoids the discussion in what some might say a typical charedi fashion of ad homenium attack instead of a substantive argument. As the things stand now - RNS touche!
I explained that the premise of the discussion is a mistake. There is nothing substantive in RNS's post to argue about. I believe you may be thinking of classic legitimate questions such as צדיק ורע לו רשע וטוב לו.
I disagree that there's nothing substantive to discuss, but I agree that it was written in an inflammatory manner.
Now whether it was needlessly inflammatory, that's editorializing. Perhaps Slifkin's point here is to be inflammatory, and thus be thought provoking and to stimulate a discussion. And perhaps not.
I wonder if we can really claim a factual correlation between hishtadlus and parnasa. I think that many, even irreligious people, would claim that the world is a very unfair place, and some with little effort do incredibly well, whilst other who work really hard, see little success.
Hishtadlus is not worth much if you are not any good at what you are doing. Hard well directed work results in profit. Badly directed work is unlikely to.
“I’m sure that creative Gemara minds can come up with some sort of intellectual gymnastics to resolve it. But have they even thought about it?”
In this paragraph, you’ve conceded that you’re approaching this with bad faith, and have already made up your mind that you’re not willing to take the other side seriously.
I question your framing of their position. Do they really believe that physical movements geared toward making parnassa are just random movements that have no correlation with parnassa? If so, do you have a source for this? Or is their position more in line with say, how David responded to Goliath: “And all this assembly shall know that not with sword and javelin does the Lord save, for the battle is the Lord's, and He will deliver you into our hand,” and proceeded to kill him without armor, and a mere slingshot? A so-called “rationalist” understanding of hishtadlus would lead people to call David crazy for undertaking this endeavor.
Speaking of which, how do you reconcile your understanding of physical action with the story of David (and many other stories throughout Tanach)?
This actually could have been a normal post, had it not been framed as a "chareidi" question. I mean, how to modern orthodox deal with this question? Do they think parnassa comes only from your hishtadlus? What do they do about all the מאמרי חז"ל that say the exact opposite?
Anyhow, to answer the question itself, I think most chareidim would tell you that there is no correlation between the amount of hishtadlus and the amount of money you will get, exactly as you quoted in the name of Rav Shteinman. The chovos halevovos elaborates on this.
Now there is obviously more to say about this. The Chovos Halevovos says you do need to do some hishtadlus, and the alter of Novahrdok famously disagrees. I wouls think you need to be on a high madreiga to get parnassa with zero hishtadlus, because that would be the equivalent of having a miracle happen for you. And generally the rule is that Hashem does not do miracles, עולם כמנהגו נוהג.
I don't see the problem with this approach. Defintiely in my own personal life I see little correlation between my hishtadlus and my parnassa. I can't speak on Natan's behalf.
I think part of the confusion here is the idea that one can measure hishtadlus in any sort of way that makes sense beyond "doing nothing" vs. "doing something".
What is more hishtadlus, applying for food stamps or getting a job that pays as much as foodstamps? What is more hishtadlus, spending 4 years getting a BA in History, or spending 4 years working in sales? What is more hishtadlus, leaving yeshiva before one gets married to start a career, or marrying a girl who already has one and staying in kollel for several years?
NS would probably say something like going to college vs. not going, but is there empirical evidence that WITHIN the chareidi community, the college goers have better parnassa than say, the people who went into real estate?
In the charedi world maybe it's divinely granted. In the real world it's a combination of preparation, hard work, connections, and other factors that where magical thinking has no measurable effect. Ever since Adam and Eve left Gan Edan we have earned our bread by the sweat of our brows just like Hashem said
Back in my more charedi days I gave this a lot of thought. I fully bought into 1, so 2 definitely bothered me. A lot. Where I ended up was something like this:
The axis that you are measuring "parnasa" for 1 and 2 are fundamentally different. 1 would be parnasa in the sense of life satisfaction, having what you need when you need it, being happy with what you have. For 2 you have parnasa in the sense of wealth. So you can have a correlation between chasing money and having money, while at the same time having no correlation between chasing money and getting where you are "meant to be".
While I can see reasons why that's not a satisfying answer for some, and you could argue that being more economically productive and driven is a good thing for society at large, ultimately there is some truth in it - at least in the modern welfare state world we live in. And it doesn't just apply to charedim either. Some people have a simpler attitude to life where they don't stress about money, and basically just make do with what they have. For such people, you could argue "maavirin memenu ol malchus veol derech eretz" (obviously in a sense). I am not one of those people, but I sometimes wish I was.
While the official 'party line' may be that the answer to 1 is yes, if you speak to the average common man sitting in a random row in shul, there's a really good chance he'll say the answer is no, or he'll say that while parnasa is ultimately in Hashem's hands, what we do certainly makes a difference in large part. People are not as single-minded as they seem from the pages of Mishpacha or the latest shul lecha dodi dvar torah pamphlet. And even many chareidi rabbis understand that practically speaking, there is nuance, and we must take the real world reality into account.
Many people will speak of the truth of the abstract idea of Hashem controlling the world; some might also point out situations where someone did or didn't do hishtadlus and the outcome was different than expected; and a smaller number of people might also mention as an abstract idea that a person with pure, absolute emuna would require very minimal hishtadlus, but even many in the last group probably understand that in practical reality this is almost non-existent, or perhaps there might be a small number of people where this idea is a partial reality for them, but not entirely, since almost no one is on the level of Rashbi (Berachot 35b).
For most people it's not a matter of intellectual gymnastics. They don't think very deeply, nor in stark black and white terms, and are comfortable with the abstract idea of control of the world by Hashem while they think of a large amount of the day to day facts on the ground as being due to worldly cause and effect, and to what they themselves do to bring about some of the effect.
From my expirience in real life most chareidi rabbies hustle like everyone else. As someone has already pointed out, this could have been a good discussion of the subject unrelated to charedim because there is a problem in reconciling the various oppinions of Hazal and the reality of life. But on this blog a discussion of a most interesting and fundamental topic becomes a waste of time.
You claim "classical Judaism would generally disagree with the first point" ((viz, that "parnasa is completely determined by Hashem based on spiritual reasons, and utterly unaffected by physical hishtadlus."
Leave aside the false straw man dichotomies, so typical of this blog, framing things in simplistic black and white. ("completely determined", "Utterly unaffected") Ask it the way a normal person would, whether the PRIMARY determinant is spiritual or toil. Of course, like most things in Judaism, there are enough sources to support either side of the debate, if a debate there is. And in no way, shape, or form does classical Judaism disagree that parnasah is primarily pre-determined by God.
In fact, if you're interested in surveys, don't ask about Charedim, which the readership of this blog can't help you with anyway. Ask it about modox. Try to determine their beliefs, and if it turns out they think its primarily hishtadlus based, ask how they reconcile their beliefs with the many contrary statements found in both the Bible and Chazal. I’m sure that creative doctors, lawyers, and accountants can come up with some sort of intellectual gymnastics to resolve it. But have they even thought about it?
You left out a 3rd possibility that is mentioned in chazal. The Gemara in Moed Katan 28a states: . אָמַר רָבָא: חַיֵּי, בְּנֵי וּמְזוֹנֵי, לָא בִּזְכוּתָא תַּלְיָא מִילְּתָא, אֶלָּא בְּמַזָּלָא תַּלְיָא מִילְּתָא.
Tosafos at the end of kiddushin takes this very seriously. The Mishna 82a states: רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר לְעוֹלָם יְלַמֵּד אָדָם אֶת בְּנוֹ אוּמָּנוּת נְקִיָּה וְקַלָּה וְיִתְפַּלֵּל לְמִי שֶׁהָעוֹשֶׁר וְהַנְּכָסִים שֶׁלּוֹ שֶׁאֵין אוּמָּנוּת שֶׁאֵין בָּהּ עֲנִיּוּת וַעֲשִׁירוּת שֶׁלֹּא עֲנִיּוּת מִן הָאוּמָּנוּת וְלֹא עֲשִׁירוּת מִן הָאוּמָּנוּת אֶלָּא הַכֹּל לְפִי זְכוּתוֹ
Tosafos there comments: אלא הכל לפי זכותו - פירוש לפי מזלו דבני וחיי ומזוני לאו בזכותא תליא מילתא אלא במזלא תליא מילתא:
So in fact there is an opinion that your livelihood is based not in your hishtadlus and not on your spiritual accomplishments but rather on your mazal. Some people are decreed to be rich and some poor.
You also have the Gemara in Nidda 16b which states: דדריש ר' חנינא בר פפא אותו מלאך הממונה על ההריון לילה שמו ונוטל טפה ומעמידה לפני הקב"ה ואומר לפניו רבש"ע טפה זו מה תהא עליה גבור או חלש חכם או טיפש עשיר או עני
This Gemara also seems to say that how much money a person will have is decreed before he is born.
All very true. Al derech niglah, you see many people who just don't have the intelligence/personality/life skills to succeed financially - we all know they won't and they usually do not.
I'll introduce another wrinkle - what about the concept of "Hashem leads one along the path they choose" and bechira in general?
Consider the following common scenario: a bright yeshiva guy is meeting with his rosh yeshiva to discuss his future life plans. He is torn between pursuing kollel/chinuch or medical school. The pros and cons of both options are weighed. One of which is very obviously money. The simple truth is that this person has the option of CHOOSING to make more money or LESS money.
It seems like when people say "It doesn't matter what you do, you'll make the make same either way" it's in the context of encouraging people to focus more of their efforts on spiritual pursuits, and less on working, not to make an airtight philosophical statement. I think deep down, everyone knows the more you work, the more money you make.
. . . Not to mention there are entire periods of history that are poorer or wealthier than others. How does that effect the gezaira on an individual? Someone born now will be far richer and more comfortable than someone born 500 years ago.
הנה, הטפול והטרדה כבר דברנו מהם למעלה, כי בהיות האדם טרוד בעניני עולמו, הנה מחשבותיו אסורות בזיקי המשא אשר עליהם, ואי אפשר להם לתת לב אל המעשה. והחכמים עליהם השלום, בראותם זה אמרו (אבות ד, י): הוי ממעט בעסק ועסוק בתורה. כי הנה העסק מוכרח הוא לאדם לצורך פרנסתו, אך ריבוי העסק אינו מוכרח שיהיה כל כך גדול עד שלא יניח לו מקום אל עבודתו, על כן נצטוינו לקבוע עתים לתורה,
פרק ה' בבאור מפסידי הזהירות
Occupying oneself to obtain a livelihood is indeed necessary but it is not necessary to occupy oneself to such an extent that he has no room left for service [of G-d]. For this we were commanded to fix times for Torah study.
אמנם מה שיוכל לשמור את האדם ולהצילו מן המפסידים האלה הוא הבטחון, והוא שישליך יהבו על ה' לגמרי, כאשר ידע כי ודאי אי אפשר שיחסר לאדם מה שנקצב לו, וכמו שאז"ל במאמריהם (ביצה ט"ז א): כל מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו מראש השנה וגו', וכן אמרו (יומא ל"ח ב): אין אדם נוגע במוכן לחבירו אפילו כמלא נימא.
However, that which can protect a person and save him from these detriments is trust in G-d. Namely, that a person casts his burden entirely upon G-d, knowing that it is certainly impossible for a man to lack what was designated for him, as our sages taught: "all of a person's sustenance [for the year] is fixed for him from Rosh Hashana [to Yom Kippur]" (Beitzah 16a). Likewise, they said: "no man can touch what was prepared for his fellow even to the extent of a hair's breadth" (Yomah 38b).
וכבר היה אדם יכול להיות יושב ובטל והגזירה (גזירת קיצבת מזונות שקצבו לו בראש השנה) היתה מתקיימת, אם לא שקדם הקנס לכל בני אדם, (בראשית ג:יט): בזעת אפך תאכל לחם, אשר על כן חייב אדם להשתדל איזה השתדלות לצורך פרנסתו, שכן גזר המלך העליון.
A person could have sat idle and the decree would have been fulfilled (his designated portion would have come to him), had it not been preceded by the fine imposed on every human being: "by the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread" (Gen.3:19), whereby a person is required to make some effort for obtaining his livelihood, for thus the exalted King decreed.
והרי זה כמס שפורע כל המין האנושי אשר אין להמלט ממנו. על כן (הואיל וכך גזר המלך) אמרו (ספרי): יכול אפילו יושב ובטל (יראה סימן ברכה) תלמוד לומר: בכל משלח ידך אשר תעשה (דברים כח:כ).
This is like a tax imposed on the human race which one cannot escape from paying. Therefore, our sages, of blessed memory, said (Sifri 15:18): "I might think one can sit idle, but scripture says (Devarim 28:20): 'in all that you set your hand to do' ".
אך לא שההשתדלות הוא המועיל, אלא שהשתדלות מוכרח, וכיון שהשתדל הרי יצא ידי חובתו, וכבר יש מקום לברכת שמים שתשרה עליו ואינו צריך לבלות ימיו בחריצות והשתדלות, הוא מה שכתב דוד המלך ע"ה (תהלים עה:ז-ח): כי לא ממוצא וממערב ולא וגו', כי אלהים שופט וגו' ושלמה המלך ע"ה אמר (משלי כג:ד): "אל תיגע להעשיר מבינתך חדל".
Only that it is not the efforts (hishtadlut) that help. Rather, the efforts are necessary, but once one has put in some effort, he has already discharged his obligation and there is place for the blessing of Heaven to rest upon him, and he need not consume his days in exertion and labor. This is what king David said: "For not from the east or from the west, nor from... but it is G-d who executes judgment, [putting down one and lifting up another]" (Tehilim 75:7-8), and king Shlomo said: "Do not weary yourself to grow rich; cease applying your understanding" (Mishlei 23:4).
אלא הדרך האמיתי הוא דרכם של החסידים הראשונים עושים תורתן עיקר ומלאכתן טפלה, וזה וזה נתקיים בידם, כי כיון שעשה אדם קצת מלאכה משם והלאה אין לו אלא לבטוח בקונו ולא להצטער על שום דבר עולמי, אז תשאר דעתו פנויה ולבו מוכן לחסידות האמיתי ולעבודה התמימה.
Rather, the true path is that of the "early Pious ones", who made their Torah primary and their work secondary, and succeeded in both (Berachot 35b). For once a man does a little work, from then on, he need only trust in his Master, and not be distressed by any worldly matters. Then his mind will be free and his heart ready for true Chasidut and perfect divine service.
There is a difference between Chapter 5 Zehirus (Watchfulness) and chapter 21 Chasiddus. Divine Providence is dependent on the level of the individual. הרבה עשו כי רבי שמעון ולא עלתה בידם... because they were not on the level of Rabbi Shimon. תורה מה תהיה עליה? They are LIVING the Torah by engaging with the world in accordance with Torah's legal and moral framework. This is Torah. לא כל אחד זוכה לשתי שולחנות.
The Ramchal is chapter 21 is also promoting hishtadlus. RSHBY promoted doing NO hishtadlus. And even the followers of his disputant R' Yishmael discouraged an excessive amount of hishtadlus. But then again, they were advising how to maximize one's life for limud HaTorah and not giving advise on how to get rich.
I don’t know much about the mindset of the Israeli chareidi community but they can’t be lumped together with the American yeshivish community in general and particularly in regards to this issue. Many ( perhaps even most) members of the Yeshivish community are a lot more practical than you give them credit for.
I’ll try: those who stay in learning are on a higher madreigah. They are thus judged more harshly for their misdeeds. Also they are rewarded for their ameilus by having all of their punishment extracted in Olam Hazeh so as to preserve their Olam Haba. Finally, for them, less Parnassah is a reward because it keeps them focused on Torah and not cars. R Steinman knew all this, but he also knew not to say it because those starting out would be on a lower level and would not understand and might be discouraged from pursuing this righteous path.
Hashem decides. However, sometimes, He takes into consideration whether the person did the amount of hishtadlut expected of him.
It could actually be that someone on a high spiritual level will receive less as he is not so interested in material things. Once, a man asked Rav Aryeh Levine if he should look for a better paying job. He told Rav Aryeh, who had a much lower salary, how much he earned and that it was before taxes. Rav Aryeh said "that is not enough for you". On the other hand, another man was told that in his present job he had honor, which Rav Aryeh did not want at all for himself,
I've heard the argument made that sure if you work more you'll make more money but the "bracha" won't be there. God preordains how much "bracha" (ill-defined word) you will experience from your money but not necessarily how much money you will receive.
So while person A does minimal hishtadlus and person B does more - and perhaps makes more money - that extra money ostensibly goes to lawyers and bills etc.
Of course there is no evidence to support this assertion but c'mon "I know tons of people..."
I remember being very perturbed by this whilst studying in yeshiva. I finally summoned the courage to ask a certain Rav Moshe Stav. Expecting some profound explanation, his answer was short and simple: ‘we see it doesn’t quite work this way’, and off he strode. I felt very sheepish at having asked such a dumb question, but it was an important life lesson.
I'm probably slightly dense, but what was the important life-lesson?
Intellectual honestly, in a nutshell. Accept a plain reality, even if it disagrees with one’s instruction manual for how God ought to run the world. Forget the acrobatics… and move on with life.
The truth is, I don't think anyone really knows, rishon, acharon or otherwise.
I remember a Pnei Yehoshua in Shabbos discussing schar v'onesh and saying that nobody actually knows how it works.
I find it curious that one can observe this as a fact, but then stop there. If we don't know how something works, it's possible that it's a so called "black box".
In other words, input is entered and output exits and we're unsure as to why a given stimulus generated a given response. It could be that there's a good reason why X produces X' why Y produces Y' and it could be that there's no good reason, and we just need more information to figure it out. Or it could be that there is no good reason, and that the correlation is absent. A third possibility is that there's a good reason but that the information necessary to figure it out is so astronomically massive that virtually no amount of information would give us sufficient basis for then figuring out the pattern. So if we were unfamiliar with pi, let's say, and when a digit was entered (let's say 192) the corresponding digit in pi (the 192nd digit in pi) was generated, how long would it take us to figure this out? Well, I'm not a mathematician, but I suppose there are infinite examples of infinitely repeating decimal sequences, we might never be able to figure out a given pattern, even though it's an actual pattern.
So maybe we can figure things out and maybe we can't and maybe when we can't, it can be because we can't yet or because we won't ever, either because the time commitment is too large (and so the pattern is indiscernible) or because there's actually no pattern. With AI, we may have a chance to figure out previously indiscernible patterns, but maybe another level of AI is necessary to figure out the next level of indiscernible things.
I wonder that more people don't consider things this way.
It's the famous question of tzadik v'ra lo. It's the message of sefer Iyov.
See happygolucky's take on this post here:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/its-all-greek-to-me
That post avoids the discussion in what some might say a typical charedi fashion of ad homenium attack instead of a substantive argument. As the things stand now - RNS touche!
I explained that the premise of the discussion is a mistake. There is nothing substantive in RNS's post to argue about. I believe you may be thinking of classic legitimate questions such as צדיק ורע לו רשע וטוב לו.
I disagree that there's nothing substantive to discuss, but I agree that it was written in an inflammatory manner.
Now whether it was needlessly inflammatory, that's editorializing. Perhaps Slifkin's point here is to be inflammatory, and thus be thought provoking and to stimulate a discussion. And perhaps not.
I wonder if we can really claim a factual correlation between hishtadlus and parnasa. I think that many, even irreligious people, would claim that the world is a very unfair place, and some with little effort do incredibly well, whilst other who work really hard, see little success.
Hishtadlus is not worth much if you are not any good at what you are doing. Hard well directed work results in profit. Badly directed work is unlikely to.
“I’m sure that creative Gemara minds can come up with some sort of intellectual gymnastics to resolve it. But have they even thought about it?”
In this paragraph, you’ve conceded that you’re approaching this with bad faith, and have already made up your mind that you’re not willing to take the other side seriously.
Actually I already tested these questions on people.
I question your framing of their position. Do they really believe that physical movements geared toward making parnassa are just random movements that have no correlation with parnassa? If so, do you have a source for this? Or is their position more in line with say, how David responded to Goliath: “And all this assembly shall know that not with sword and javelin does the Lord save, for the battle is the Lord's, and He will deliver you into our hand,” and proceeded to kill him without armor, and a mere slingshot? A so-called “rationalist” understanding of hishtadlus would lead people to call David crazy for undertaking this endeavor.
Speaking of which, how do you reconcile your understanding of physical action with the story of David (and many other stories throughout Tanach)?
100%. Bad faith may as well be his second name.
This actually could have been a normal post, had it not been framed as a "chareidi" question. I mean, how to modern orthodox deal with this question? Do they think parnassa comes only from your hishtadlus? What do they do about all the מאמרי חז"ל that say the exact opposite?
Anyhow, to answer the question itself, I think most chareidim would tell you that there is no correlation between the amount of hishtadlus and the amount of money you will get, exactly as you quoted in the name of Rav Shteinman. The chovos halevovos elaborates on this.
Now there is obviously more to say about this. The Chovos Halevovos says you do need to do some hishtadlus, and the alter of Novahrdok famously disagrees. I wouls think you need to be on a high madreiga to get parnassa with zero hishtadlus, because that would be the equivalent of having a miracle happen for you. And generally the rule is that Hashem does not do miracles, עולם כמנהגו נוהג.
I don't see the problem with this approach. Defintiely in my own personal life I see little correlation between my hishtadlus and my parnassa. I can't speak on Natan's behalf.
Note the contradiction between what you claim most people believe and what the comment above by Josephs claims that most people believe.
I think part of the confusion here is the idea that one can measure hishtadlus in any sort of way that makes sense beyond "doing nothing" vs. "doing something".
What is more hishtadlus, applying for food stamps or getting a job that pays as much as foodstamps? What is more hishtadlus, spending 4 years getting a BA in History, or spending 4 years working in sales? What is more hishtadlus, leaving yeshiva before one gets married to start a career, or marrying a girl who already has one and staying in kollel for several years?
NS would probably say something like going to college vs. not going, but is there empirical evidence that WITHIN the chareidi community, the college goers have better parnassa than say, the people who went into real estate?
In the charedi world maybe it's divinely granted. In the real world it's a combination of preparation, hard work, connections, and other factors that where magical thinking has no measurable effect. Ever since Adam and Eve left Gan Edan we have earned our bread by the sweat of our brows just like Hashem said
To borrow from a classic Muslim story:
"I don't understand. My camel ran away!"
"Did you tie it up?"
"I trusted in G-d."
"Trust in G-d, but first tether your camel."
Back in my more charedi days I gave this a lot of thought. I fully bought into 1, so 2 definitely bothered me. A lot. Where I ended up was something like this:
The axis that you are measuring "parnasa" for 1 and 2 are fundamentally different. 1 would be parnasa in the sense of life satisfaction, having what you need when you need it, being happy with what you have. For 2 you have parnasa in the sense of wealth. So you can have a correlation between chasing money and having money, while at the same time having no correlation between chasing money and getting where you are "meant to be".
While I can see reasons why that's not a satisfying answer for some, and you could argue that being more economically productive and driven is a good thing for society at large, ultimately there is some truth in it - at least in the modern welfare state world we live in. And it doesn't just apply to charedim either. Some people have a simpler attitude to life where they don't stress about money, and basically just make do with what they have. For such people, you could argue "maavirin memenu ol malchus veol derech eretz" (obviously in a sense). I am not one of those people, but I sometimes wish I was.
While the official 'party line' may be that the answer to 1 is yes, if you speak to the average common man sitting in a random row in shul, there's a really good chance he'll say the answer is no, or he'll say that while parnasa is ultimately in Hashem's hands, what we do certainly makes a difference in large part. People are not as single-minded as they seem from the pages of Mishpacha or the latest shul lecha dodi dvar torah pamphlet. And even many chareidi rabbis understand that practically speaking, there is nuance, and we must take the real world reality into account.
Many people will speak of the truth of the abstract idea of Hashem controlling the world; some might also point out situations where someone did or didn't do hishtadlus and the outcome was different than expected; and a smaller number of people might also mention as an abstract idea that a person with pure, absolute emuna would require very minimal hishtadlus, but even many in the last group probably understand that in practical reality this is almost non-existent, or perhaps there might be a small number of people where this idea is a partial reality for them, but not entirely, since almost no one is on the level of Rashbi (Berachot 35b).
For most people it's not a matter of intellectual gymnastics. They don't think very deeply, nor in stark black and white terms, and are comfortable with the abstract idea of control of the world by Hashem while they think of a large amount of the day to day facts on the ground as being due to worldly cause and effect, and to what they themselves do to bring about some of the effect.
Note the contradiction between what you claim most people believe and what the comment below by מרכבות פריה claims that most people believe,
From my expirience in real life most chareidi rabbies hustle like everyone else. As someone has already pointed out, this could have been a good discussion of the subject unrelated to charedim because there is a problem in reconciling the various oppinions of Hazal and the reality of life. But on this blog a discussion of a most interesting and fundamental topic becomes a waste of time.
You claim "classical Judaism would generally disagree with the first point" ((viz, that "parnasa is completely determined by Hashem based on spiritual reasons, and utterly unaffected by physical hishtadlus."
Leave aside the false straw man dichotomies, so typical of this blog, framing things in simplistic black and white. ("completely determined", "Utterly unaffected") Ask it the way a normal person would, whether the PRIMARY determinant is spiritual or toil. Of course, like most things in Judaism, there are enough sources to support either side of the debate, if a debate there is. And in no way, shape, or form does classical Judaism disagree that parnasah is primarily pre-determined by God.
In fact, if you're interested in surveys, don't ask about Charedim, which the readership of this blog can't help you with anyway. Ask it about modox. Try to determine their beliefs, and if it turns out they think its primarily hishtadlus based, ask how they reconcile their beliefs with the many contrary statements found in both the Bible and Chazal. I’m sure that creative doctors, lawyers, and accountants can come up with some sort of intellectual gymnastics to resolve it. But have they even thought about it?
You left out a 3rd possibility that is mentioned in chazal. The Gemara in Moed Katan 28a states: . אָמַר רָבָא: חַיֵּי, בְּנֵי וּמְזוֹנֵי, לָא בִּזְכוּתָא תַּלְיָא מִילְּתָא, אֶלָּא בְּמַזָּלָא תַּלְיָא מִילְּתָא.
Tosafos at the end of kiddushin takes this very seriously. The Mishna 82a states: רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר לְעוֹלָם יְלַמֵּד אָדָם אֶת בְּנוֹ אוּמָּנוּת נְקִיָּה וְקַלָּה וְיִתְפַּלֵּל לְמִי שֶׁהָעוֹשֶׁר וְהַנְּכָסִים שֶׁלּוֹ שֶׁאֵין אוּמָּנוּת שֶׁאֵין בָּהּ עֲנִיּוּת וַעֲשִׁירוּת שֶׁלֹּא עֲנִיּוּת מִן הָאוּמָּנוּת וְלֹא עֲשִׁירוּת מִן הָאוּמָּנוּת אֶלָּא הַכֹּל לְפִי זְכוּתוֹ
Tosafos there comments: אלא הכל לפי זכותו - פירוש לפי מזלו דבני וחיי ומזוני לאו בזכותא תליא מילתא אלא במזלא תליא מילתא:
So in fact there is an opinion that your livelihood is based not in your hishtadlus and not on your spiritual accomplishments but rather on your mazal. Some people are decreed to be rich and some poor.
You also have the Gemara in Nidda 16b which states: דדריש ר' חנינא בר פפא אותו מלאך הממונה על ההריון לילה שמו ונוטל טפה ומעמידה לפני הקב"ה ואומר לפניו רבש"ע טפה זו מה תהא עליה גבור או חלש חכם או טיפש עשיר או עני
This Gemara also seems to say that how much money a person will have is decreed before he is born.
All very true. Al derech niglah, you see many people who just don't have the intelligence/personality/life skills to succeed financially - we all know they won't and they usually do not.
I'll introduce another wrinkle - what about the concept of "Hashem leads one along the path they choose" and bechira in general?
Consider the following common scenario: a bright yeshiva guy is meeting with his rosh yeshiva to discuss his future life plans. He is torn between pursuing kollel/chinuch or medical school. The pros and cons of both options are weighed. One of which is very obviously money. The simple truth is that this person has the option of CHOOSING to make more money or LESS money.
It seems like when people say "It doesn't matter what you do, you'll make the make same either way" it's in the context of encouraging people to focus more of their efforts on spiritual pursuits, and less on working, not to make an airtight philosophical statement. I think deep down, everyone knows the more you work, the more money you make.
. . . Not to mention there are entire periods of history that are poorer or wealthier than others. How does that effect the gezaira on an individual? Someone born now will be far richer and more comfortable than someone born 500 years ago.
The Ramchal writes #1. How would he answer #2? Was the correlation less obvious in his day?
This is what Ramchal writes:
הנה, הטפול והטרדה כבר דברנו מהם למעלה, כי בהיות האדם טרוד בעניני עולמו, הנה מחשבותיו אסורות בזיקי המשא אשר עליהם, ואי אפשר להם לתת לב אל המעשה. והחכמים עליהם השלום, בראותם זה אמרו (אבות ד, י): הוי ממעט בעסק ועסוק בתורה. כי הנה העסק מוכרח הוא לאדם לצורך פרנסתו, אך ריבוי העסק אינו מוכרח שיהיה כל כך גדול עד שלא יניח לו מקום אל עבודתו, על כן נצטוינו לקבוע עתים לתורה,
פרק ה' בבאור מפסידי הזהירות
Occupying oneself to obtain a livelihood is indeed necessary but it is not necessary to occupy oneself to such an extent that he has no room left for service [of G-d]. For this we were commanded to fix times for Torah study.
מסילת ישרים פרק כא
Translation from Sefaria
אמנם מה שיוכל לשמור את האדם ולהצילו מן המפסידים האלה הוא הבטחון, והוא שישליך יהבו על ה' לגמרי, כאשר ידע כי ודאי אי אפשר שיחסר לאדם מה שנקצב לו, וכמו שאז"ל במאמריהם (ביצה ט"ז א): כל מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו מראש השנה וגו', וכן אמרו (יומא ל"ח ב): אין אדם נוגע במוכן לחבירו אפילו כמלא נימא.
However, that which can protect a person and save him from these detriments is trust in G-d. Namely, that a person casts his burden entirely upon G-d, knowing that it is certainly impossible for a man to lack what was designated for him, as our sages taught: "all of a person's sustenance [for the year] is fixed for him from Rosh Hashana [to Yom Kippur]" (Beitzah 16a). Likewise, they said: "no man can touch what was prepared for his fellow even to the extent of a hair's breadth" (Yomah 38b).
וכבר היה אדם יכול להיות יושב ובטל והגזירה (גזירת קיצבת מזונות שקצבו לו בראש השנה) היתה מתקיימת, אם לא שקדם הקנס לכל בני אדם, (בראשית ג:יט): בזעת אפך תאכל לחם, אשר על כן חייב אדם להשתדל איזה השתדלות לצורך פרנסתו, שכן גזר המלך העליון.
A person could have sat idle and the decree would have been fulfilled (his designated portion would have come to him), had it not been preceded by the fine imposed on every human being: "by the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread" (Gen.3:19), whereby a person is required to make some effort for obtaining his livelihood, for thus the exalted King decreed.
והרי זה כמס שפורע כל המין האנושי אשר אין להמלט ממנו. על כן (הואיל וכך גזר המלך) אמרו (ספרי): יכול אפילו יושב ובטל (יראה סימן ברכה) תלמוד לומר: בכל משלח ידך אשר תעשה (דברים כח:כ).
This is like a tax imposed on the human race which one cannot escape from paying. Therefore, our sages, of blessed memory, said (Sifri 15:18): "I might think one can sit idle, but scripture says (Devarim 28:20): 'in all that you set your hand to do' ".
אך לא שההשתדלות הוא המועיל, אלא שהשתדלות מוכרח, וכיון שהשתדל הרי יצא ידי חובתו, וכבר יש מקום לברכת שמים שתשרה עליו ואינו צריך לבלות ימיו בחריצות והשתדלות, הוא מה שכתב דוד המלך ע"ה (תהלים עה:ז-ח): כי לא ממוצא וממערב ולא וגו', כי אלהים שופט וגו' ושלמה המלך ע"ה אמר (משלי כג:ד): "אל תיגע להעשיר מבינתך חדל".
Only that it is not the efforts (hishtadlut) that help. Rather, the efforts are necessary, but once one has put in some effort, he has already discharged his obligation and there is place for the blessing of Heaven to rest upon him, and he need not consume his days in exertion and labor. This is what king David said: "For not from the east or from the west, nor from... but it is G-d who executes judgment, [putting down one and lifting up another]" (Tehilim 75:7-8), and king Shlomo said: "Do not weary yourself to grow rich; cease applying your understanding" (Mishlei 23:4).
אלא הדרך האמיתי הוא דרכם של החסידים הראשונים עושים תורתן עיקר ומלאכתן טפלה, וזה וזה נתקיים בידם, כי כיון שעשה אדם קצת מלאכה משם והלאה אין לו אלא לבטוח בקונו ולא להצטער על שום דבר עולמי, אז תשאר דעתו פנויה ולבו מוכן לחסידות האמיתי ולעבודה התמימה.
Rather, the true path is that of the "early Pious ones", who made their Torah primary and their work secondary, and succeeded in both (Berachot 35b). For once a man does a little work, from then on, he need only trust in his Master, and not be distressed by any worldly matters. Then his mind will be free and his heart ready for true Chasidut and perfect divine service.
There is a difference between Chapter 5 Zehirus (Watchfulness) and chapter 21 Chasiddus. Divine Providence is dependent on the level of the individual. הרבה עשו כי רבי שמעון ולא עלתה בידם... because they were not on the level of Rabbi Shimon. תורה מה תהיה עליה? They are LIVING the Torah by engaging with the world in accordance with Torah's legal and moral framework. This is Torah. לא כל אחד זוכה לשתי שולחנות.
The Ramchal is chapter 21 is also promoting hishtadlus. RSHBY promoted doing NO hishtadlus. And even the followers of his disputant R' Yishmael discouraged an excessive amount of hishtadlus. But then again, they were advising how to maximize one's life for limud HaTorah and not giving advise on how to get rich.
I don’t know much about the mindset of the Israeli chareidi community but they can’t be lumped together with the American yeshivish community in general and particularly in regards to this issue. Many ( perhaps even most) members of the Yeshivish community are a lot more practical than you give them credit for.
I’ll try: those who stay in learning are on a higher madreigah. They are thus judged more harshly for their misdeeds. Also they are rewarded for their ameilus by having all of their punishment extracted in Olam Hazeh so as to preserve their Olam Haba. Finally, for them, less Parnassah is a reward because it keeps them focused on Torah and not cars. R Steinman knew all this, but he also knew not to say it because those starting out would be on a lower level and would not understand and might be discouraged from pursuing this righteous path.
Hashem decides. However, sometimes, He takes into consideration whether the person did the amount of hishtadlut expected of him.
It could actually be that someone on a high spiritual level will receive less as he is not so interested in material things. Once, a man asked Rav Aryeh Levine if he should look for a better paying job. He told Rav Aryeh, who had a much lower salary, how much he earned and that it was before taxes. Rav Aryeh said "that is not enough for you". On the other hand, another man was told that in his present job he had honor, which Rav Aryeh did not want at all for himself,