There are a couple of major flaws in this article:
1. The poskim simply disagree with the Tiferes Yisroel's invocation of חיי שעה, and consider it retzicha. So even if a braindead person can't do teshuva, it's still forbidden (this is besides the fact that according to the article that someone linked on last post, up to 40% (!) of braindead people have some degree of consciousness).
2. How the heck does a braindead person give up his life voluntarily?? He can't exactly tell us that he wants to pull the plug! And relying on an organ donor card wouldn't quite cut it either, being that he may still have some degree of consciousness.
An excellent [additional] demonstration on why serious halacha shailos should be left to talmidei chachamim with yiras shamayim and shikul hada'as, not cultural propogandists with a search engine....
"R. Yehudah HaChassid states that it is praiseworthy for an am ha’aretz to choose to sacrifice his life in order to save the life of a Torah scholar who is needed by the community."
Interesting article. However, I think the more sensible approach is to convince more poskim of the overwhelming scientific evidence about brain death—so they can rule (as Rav Tendler and the Israeli Rabbanut ruled years ago) that brain death is halachic death. Which solves the problem without relying on loopholes or minority opinions.
The arrogance in equating brain death with death is self-evident if you have even a basic education on brain function.
I took a one year course in neural anatomy focusing on vision and hearing as part of my major (Cognitive Science) in 1989. The way the course progressed was this.
It was basically delineating one segment of the brain after another, and the professor, a typically arrogant example of the type, laughed nervously as he admitted, we don't really know what it does or how it works. We just know it's there and it's distinct. The lone exception I remember was "V1" which is where the optic nerves fed into, and which seemed to have comparatively simple functioning compared to every other area. This was literally the entire course. The material on the hearing of bats and owls was interesting, but our understanding of what they do is still on the level of "stone knives and bear skins."
I actually thought to look into the topic recently to see if anything had changed in the intervening decades. No, not really. The ignorance is still near total.
So, we don't how the brain works, with vision or much else for that matter, but we still understand enough to make judgement calls about things like "brain death?" This makes sense only if you are a retard.
The only proper way for Jews to approach issues surrounding death is through our mesorah. Medical insights can provide color to improve decision making, but making decisions solely on the basis of what doctors with white lab coats say is ridiculous. And often what they say is also ridiculous.
I love this! I also came to the same basic idea on logic years ago. Basically, I decided that, for argument's sake, if I was in a situation where I was "brain dead" but somehow aware of what was going on, I would gladly choose to sacrifice whatever "life" I had left to live to save others. Combine that was "Yesh Al L'Smoch" and we're good to go.
In Chutz La'aretz, the organs will almost certainly go to a Non-Jew and quite likely to anti-semites. Does this make it less permissible to donate organs?
Usually, you are very careful about accuracy, but in this post, you erred twice in the same sentence. First, Papus and Lulianus were not killed in Lod but in לודקיא, a major city (Midrash Tehillim 79:1), far from the Land of Israel (Bava Metzia 84a, Y. Ma'asrot 3:4, et al.), known in aggadic lore for its lavish wealth (Menachot 85b, Pesikta 23, et al.). The correct identification is undoubtedly the ancient city of Laodicea in Syria, near modern-day Latakia. Although Rashi's assertion (Ta'anit 18b s.v. B'ludkia) that Papus and Lulianus are to be identified with the "הרוגי לוד" (Pesachim 50a) may have slight support from Kohelet Rabbah 9:10, this would only mean that לוד sometimes refers to Laodicea.
Second, you incorrectly attributed the story about the ruler's daughter (you wrote Emperor's daughter, but why?) to the Talmud when the actual source is Rashi's comment. The true story (or legend) of Papus and Lulianus is shrouded in mystery and has never been satisfactorily solved (see Hebrew Wikipedia). What we can deduce with reasonable certainty is that Papus and Lulianus were notable wealthy patrons of their Jewish brethren (Sifra Behukotai 5:2, Bereishit Rabbah 64:10) who were killed by Trajan. Were they killed in the Kitos war (the Jewish uprisings in Cyrene, Cyprus, Mesopotamia, and Egypt)? The only direct reference in Chazal to the reason for their execution is the cryptic statement in Y. Sanhedrin 3:5 "אבל ברבים, אפילו על מצוה קלה על ישמע לו [ויהרג ועל יעבור]. כגון פפוס ולוליינוס אחיו שנתנו להן מים בכלי זכוכית צבועה ולא קיבלו מהן."
"The reason usually advanced as to why even a few moments of a suffering or dying person’s life are precious is that “a single moment of repentance and good deeds in this world is worth more than all the life of the World-to-Come.”"
Hi rabbi,
Can I trouble you to provide a source for this reason. Thanks!
I do not check the organ donation box on my driver's license, nor do I have an organ donation card. I don't want some unscrupulous doctor to hasten my demise to harvest my organs. My family knows I want to donate whatever another person needs. Since my family will be consulted in such an event...
There are a couple of major flaws in this article:
1. The poskim simply disagree with the Tiferes Yisroel's invocation of חיי שעה, and consider it retzicha. So even if a braindead person can't do teshuva, it's still forbidden (this is besides the fact that according to the article that someone linked on last post, up to 40% (!) of braindead people have some degree of consciousness).
2. How the heck does a braindead person give up his life voluntarily?? He can't exactly tell us that he wants to pull the plug! And relying on an organ donor card wouldn't quite cut it either, being that he may still have some degree of consciousness.
An excellent [additional] demonstration on why serious halacha shailos should be left to talmidei chachamim with yiras shamayim and shikul hada'as, not cultural propogandists with a search engine....
"R. Yehudah HaChassid states that it is praiseworthy for an am ha’aretz to choose to sacrifice his life in order to save the life of a Torah scholar who is needed by the community."
Thanks, this is a good source!!!!
Interesting article. However, I think the more sensible approach is to convince more poskim of the overwhelming scientific evidence about brain death—so they can rule (as Rav Tendler and the Israeli Rabbanut ruled years ago) that brain death is halachic death. Which solves the problem without relying on loopholes or minority opinions.
The arrogance in equating brain death with death is self-evident if you have even a basic education on brain function.
I took a one year course in neural anatomy focusing on vision and hearing as part of my major (Cognitive Science) in 1989. The way the course progressed was this.
It was basically delineating one segment of the brain after another, and the professor, a typically arrogant example of the type, laughed nervously as he admitted, we don't really know what it does or how it works. We just know it's there and it's distinct. The lone exception I remember was "V1" which is where the optic nerves fed into, and which seemed to have comparatively simple functioning compared to every other area. This was literally the entire course. The material on the hearing of bats and owls was interesting, but our understanding of what they do is still on the level of "stone knives and bear skins."
I actually thought to look into the topic recently to see if anything had changed in the intervening decades. No, not really. The ignorance is still near total.
So, we don't how the brain works, with vision or much else for that matter, but we still understand enough to make judgement calls about things like "brain death?" This makes sense only if you are a retard.
The only proper way for Jews to approach issues surrounding death is through our mesorah. Medical insights can provide color to improve decision making, but making decisions solely on the basis of what doctors with white lab coats say is ridiculous. And often what they say is also ridiculous.
A complete demolition of this post is found here: https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/on-knowing-how-to-learn-part-iii
I love this! I also came to the same basic idea on logic years ago. Basically, I decided that, for argument's sake, if I was in a situation where I was "brain dead" but somehow aware of what was going on, I would gladly choose to sacrifice whatever "life" I had left to live to save others. Combine that was "Yesh Al L'Smoch" and we're good to go.
A fee questions:
Has anyone discussed the issue of someone in a persistent vegetative state?
Can one mourn for a relative whois brain-dead but whose body is being kept functioning until a recipient for his organs can be found?
In Chutz La'aretz, the organs will almost certainly go to a Non-Jew and quite likely to anti-semites. Does this make it less permissible to donate organs?
Natan, if you're going to phone it in, why not do it for real and have ChatGPT write your material? It may even be more accurate.
Usually, you are very careful about accuracy, but in this post, you erred twice in the same sentence. First, Papus and Lulianus were not killed in Lod but in לודקיא, a major city (Midrash Tehillim 79:1), far from the Land of Israel (Bava Metzia 84a, Y. Ma'asrot 3:4, et al.), known in aggadic lore for its lavish wealth (Menachot 85b, Pesikta 23, et al.). The correct identification is undoubtedly the ancient city of Laodicea in Syria, near modern-day Latakia. Although Rashi's assertion (Ta'anit 18b s.v. B'ludkia) that Papus and Lulianus are to be identified with the "הרוגי לוד" (Pesachim 50a) may have slight support from Kohelet Rabbah 9:10, this would only mean that לוד sometimes refers to Laodicea.
Second, you incorrectly attributed the story about the ruler's daughter (you wrote Emperor's daughter, but why?) to the Talmud when the actual source is Rashi's comment. The true story (or legend) of Papus and Lulianus is shrouded in mystery and has never been satisfactorily solved (see Hebrew Wikipedia). What we can deduce with reasonable certainty is that Papus and Lulianus were notable wealthy patrons of their Jewish brethren (Sifra Behukotai 5:2, Bereishit Rabbah 64:10) who were killed by Trajan. Were they killed in the Kitos war (the Jewish uprisings in Cyrene, Cyprus, Mesopotamia, and Egypt)? The only direct reference in Chazal to the reason for their execution is the cryptic statement in Y. Sanhedrin 3:5 "אבל ברבים, אפילו על מצוה קלה על ישמע לו [ויהרג ועל יעבור]. כגון פפוס ולוליינוס אחיו שנתנו להן מים בכלי זכוכית צבועה ולא קיבלו מהן."
"The reason usually advanced as to why even a few moments of a suffering or dying person’s life are precious is that “a single moment of repentance and good deeds in this world is worth more than all the life of the World-to-Come.”"
Hi rabbi,
Can I trouble you to provide a source for this reason. Thanks!
This is nothing to do with this post but since your name is in the title, it's only respectful that I send you a link, enjoy!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-challenge-of-slifkin
"[7] Rishon Letziyon (Istanbul 1750), Yoreh De’ah 247:1 (p. 103a). For further sources, see the articles cited above."
Can I trouble you to post a picture of this page from R' Chaim ben Atar? I can't find it online.
Big talker Natan, let's see your organ donor card....
I do not check the organ donation box on my driver's license, nor do I have an organ donation card. I don't want some unscrupulous doctor to hasten my demise to harvest my organs. My family knows I want to donate whatever another person needs. Since my family will be consulted in such an event...