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מכרכר בכל עוז's avatar

There are a couple of major flaws in this article:

1. The poskim simply disagree with the Tiferes Yisroel's invocation of חיי שעה, and consider it retzicha. So even if a braindead person can't do teshuva, it's still forbidden (this is besides the fact that according to the article that someone linked on last post, up to 40% (!) of braindead people have some degree of consciousness).

2. How the heck does a braindead person give up his life voluntarily?? He can't exactly tell us that he wants to pull the plug! And relying on an organ donor card wouldn't quite cut it either, being that he may still have some degree of consciousness.

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Happy's avatar

He also quotes another kofer, Michoel Avraham as a rabbinic authority, lol

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Happy's avatar

Gotta love the way he writes, with such arrogance

. זה כמובן בניגוד לדעת כל הפוסקים (כמעט עד האחרון). אבל זו דעתי, ואם אתה שואל אותי אני לא רק מתיר אלא אף מחייב. בפרט לאור ההערות הקודמות.

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Sholom's avatar

Yes.

So, so sad when people write with such arrogance.

LOL, happygoluckypersonage .

רבי נתן אומר: מום שבך אל תאמר לחברך

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Ash's avatar

Brain dead people cannot be conscious by definition. There are some wrongly misdiagnosed, but definitely not 40%. The article linked was an ad for a malpractice lawyer, hardly a reliable source.

When the AAN's criteria were followed, there has not been a single case of recovery or improvement. However, often doctors mess up the diagnosis and don't follow the guidelines, which is the true danger of brain death.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7223748/

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Shimshon's avatar

"Brain dead people cannot be conscious by definition."

Would that definition happen to be tautological?

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Frankie's avatar

An excellent [additional] demonstration on why serious halacha shailos should be left to talmidei chachamim with yiras shamayim and shikul hada'as, not cultural propogandists with a search engine....

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David Ilan's avatar

You mean the people who have zero scientific education or knowledge of what they pontificate upon?

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Frankie's avatar

I guess you got me there.

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Happy's avatar

"R. Yehudah HaChassid states that it is praiseworthy for an am ha’aretz to choose to sacrifice his life in order to save the life of a Torah scholar who is needed by the community."

Thanks, this is a good source!!!!

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Michael Feldstein's avatar

Interesting article. However, I think the more sensible approach is to convince more poskim of the overwhelming scientific evidence about brain death—so they can rule (as Rav Tendler and the Israeli Rabbanut ruled years ago) that brain death is halachic death. Which solves the problem without relying on loopholes or minority opinions.

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Michael S. Lipkin's avatar

I love this! I also came to the same basic idea on logic years ago. Basically, I decided that, for argument's sake, if I was in a situation where I was "brain dead" but somehow aware of what was going on, I would gladly choose to sacrifice whatever "life" I had left to live to save others. Combine that was "Yesh Al L'Smoch" and we're good to go.

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Scott Smith's avatar

A fee questions:

Has anyone discussed the issue of someone in a persistent vegetative state?

Can one mourn for a relative whois brain-dead but whose body is being kept functioning until a recipient for his organs can be found?

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Scott Smith's avatar

That should be "a few questions." Pardon the fat fingers.

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Rationalist Rabbi's avatar

In Chutz La'aretz, the organs will almost certainly go to a Non-Jew and quite likely to anti-semites. Does this make it less permissible to donate organs?

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Michael S. Lipkin's avatar

What a bizarre statement.

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Shimshon's avatar

Natan, if you're going to phone it in, why not do it for real and have ChatGPT write your material? It may even be more accurate.

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Yeshaya's avatar

Usually, you are very careful about accuracy, but in this post, you erred twice in the same sentence. First, Papus and Lulianus were not killed in Lod but in לודקיא, a major city (Midrash Tehillim 79:1), far from the Land of Israel (Bava Metzia 84a, Y. Ma'asrot 3:4, et al.), known in aggadic lore for its lavish wealth (Menachot 85b, Pesikta 23, et al.). The correct identification is undoubtedly the ancient city of Laodicea in Syria, near modern-day Latakia. Although Rashi's assertion (Ta'anit 18b s.v. B'ludkia) that Papus and Lulianus are to be identified with the "הרוגי לוד" (Pesachim 50a) may have slight support from Kohelet Rabbah 9:10, this would only mean that לוד sometimes refers to Laodicea.

Second, you incorrectly attributed the story about the ruler's daughter (you wrote Emperor's daughter, but why?) to the Talmud when the actual source is Rashi's comment. The true story (or legend) of Papus and Lulianus is shrouded in mystery and has never been satisfactorily solved (see Hebrew Wikipedia). What we can deduce with reasonable certainty is that Papus and Lulianus were notable wealthy patrons of their Jewish brethren (Sifra Behukotai 5:2, Bereishit Rabbah 64:10) who were killed by Trajan. Were they killed in the Kitos war (the Jewish uprisings in Cyrene, Cyprus, Mesopotamia, and Egypt)? The only direct reference in Chazal to the reason for their execution is the cryptic statement in Y. Sanhedrin 3:5 "אבל ברבים, אפילו על מצוה קלה על ישמע לו [ויהרג ועל יעבור]. כגון פפוס ולוליינוס אחיו שנתנו להן מים בכלי זכוכית צבועה ולא קיבלו מהן."

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Leib Shachar's avatar

You seem well read, let me just add the Kaftor Vaferach in Chapter 11 also identifies Ludkiah as the city you mentioned.

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Yeshaya's avatar

Wow. Cool.

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Shaul Shlomo Daus's avatar

"The reason usually advanced as to why even a few moments of a suffering or dying person’s life are precious is that “a single moment of repentance and good deeds in this world is worth more than all the life of the World-to-Come.”"

Hi rabbi,

Can I trouble you to provide a source for this reason. Thanks!

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Scott Smith's avatar

mAvot 4:17. Pirkei Avot in the siddur might have a different number for the mishna.

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דוד's avatar

This is nothing to do with this post but since your name is in the title, it's only respectful that I send you a link, enjoy!

https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-challenge-of-slifkin

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Just Curious's avatar

Dude, the commenter on this blog who goes by the moniker “happygoluckypersonage” writes that blog. He comments here like every 15 seconds. He is well-known to be obsessive in his opposition to R’ Slifkin (indeed, his entire blog is devoted to it).

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Lou C. Yaskilu's avatar

Dude, you so missed this one.

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Shaul Shlomo Daus's avatar

"[7] Rishon Letziyon (Istanbul 1750), Yoreh De’ah 247:1 (p. 103a). For further sources, see the articles cited above."

Can I trouble you to post a picture of this page from R' Chaim ben Atar? I can't find it online.

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Building Worlds's avatar

Big talker Natan, let's see your organ donor card....

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Natan Slifkin's avatar

Strange thing to say. It's in my wallet.

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Building Worlds's avatar

With a DNR?

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Natan Slifkin's avatar

It doesn't say. But I'm not even sure what you mean. A brain-dead person cannot be resuscitated out of that state.

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Building Worlds's avatar

So then The organ donation card is meaningless! The only practical nafka minah, is if someone is God forbid in a car accident - The DNR then goes along with the organ donation card and they "kill" the person for his organs.

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Just Curious's avatar

Inquire, it is clear that you do not know what you’re talking about. Please stop.

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Todd Ellner's avatar

I have been an organ donor my entire adult life and have directives in place including a durable power of medical attorney. In brief, under normal circumstances I get regular medical care. But if, in the opinion of my physician and family, I am in certain irreversible conditions that care becomes palliative only. In other much graver ones like brain death no measures are to be taken, and my organs are to be harvested as needed. This is not new legal or ethical ground for those Se of us who live in the real world

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Jeffrey's avatar

I am not sure what you mean when you say you “have been an organ donor [your] entire life”

It sounds a little exaggerated, but maybe your parents harvested your placenta at birth to provide to someone else?

I have had a signed organ donor card in my wallet for the last 25 years; I have been on the bone marrow registry for about as long and have donated whole blood, red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets roughly 120 times during my lifetime. And I have helped to coordinate American Red Cross blood drives at my shul and encouraged others to donate. One thing I have not done is actually donate a vital organ.

There is a very interesting article from the university of Chicago divinity school which seems to suggest that most organs currently donated in Israel are donated by the “Ultra-Orthodox” (as living donors rather than after brain-death)

https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sightings/articles/paradox-organ-donations-among-ultra-orthodox-jews-israel

I realize that it is not possible to safely donate certain organs (such as the heart) prior to brain-death; I also cannot speak to the accuracy of the cited article, but living donations are a very important part of any discussion.

Wishing everyone health.

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Todd Ellner's avatar

A lot of the organs are very perishable. Minutes let alone hours are crucial. I am perfectly willing to accept a small amount of time off the end of biological activity after the "me" has checked out if it means a heart, liver, lungs, bone marrow and the rest will save lives.

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Todd Ellner's avatar

My organ donor card and later the indication on my license have been in place since I was 18. That is the commonly accepted meaning of the term.

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Frank Garnick's avatar

I do not check the organ donation box on my driver's license, nor do I have an organ donation card. I don't want some unscrupulous doctor to hasten my demise to harvest my organs. My family knows I want to donate whatever another person needs. Since my family will be consulted in such an event...

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Eitan Barningham's avatar

I am an organ procurement transplant coordinator. While there may be other halachic reasons to not register as a donor, concerns for physicians “hastening” anyone’s demise should not be one of them.

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מכרכר בכל עוז's avatar

Which country do you live in? Perhaps you and Frank are describing two different healthcare systems. But here in the US, they DEFINITELY try to end the life of anyone they feel won't have maximum "quality of life".

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Sholom's avatar

Interesting.

Everyone who enters a US hospital and is certain to not exit with maximum "quality of life will" definitely be killed off?

By the staff, I presume?

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זכרון דברים's avatar

As they did in England to that girl Alta Fixler הי"ד, who was murdered on the altar of freedom of belief

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Sholom's avatar

You're talking about ONE case.

מכרכר is saying that it definitely happens to EVERYONE.

EVERYONE.

Which of you two should I believe?

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זכרון דברים's avatar

I guess this needs to be spelled out for some.

The Fixler story was not a private one about a bloodthirsty nurse who killed someone coldheartedly. It was more than that. It exposed a system that has grabbed the decision making away from parents and placed it in the grubby hands of a filthy cold-blooded cynical judge, who gets to kill people, or sentence them to death, with impunity. Alistair McDonald sr"y murdered a child, with backing from the State.

This means that we are all in danger and we are all in the hands of this mindset. At least those who live in such countries. Which is why it is a macro issue, not a localized one.

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Frank Garnick's avatar

Maybe you're a bit less cynical than I am concerning the "healthcare" field. My family knows to give away anything that will help another.

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May 6, 2023
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David Staum's avatar

"This makes sense only if you are a retard."

Do you realize that using hurtful and outdated schoolyard words makes the reader of your comment reevaluate your entire point. Until that, you came across as intelligent. But once I read that sentence, I began to realize the source was flawed.

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Shimshon's avatar

The Genetic Fallacy doesn't mean what you think it means.

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