Why do they have to close the Gemaras if they travel to Washington? It’s a very long drive. They can learn on the bus just as well as they can learn in the Beis Medrash.
I'm sorry you can't learn on aa bus, and need more plush surroundings. There are 250,000 Jews displaced (or half a million), and you're kvetching about learning on a bus.
Let's posit arguendo that Marty Bluke is exaggerating and they might not learn "as well" for that day as the would without the trip. That is still not closing up their Gemaras for a day. People who are very serious about learning bring their learning along with them to weddings, trips, appointments, commutes, etc.
Sorry. We are talking about a bus from the yeshiva. We are not talking about a city bus or the subway. The only people on the bus would be the yeshiva students and the rabbeim. Under those circumstances you would think that they could learn pretty well.
I think that your messages (all of them) miss one important point. The people that you criticize have been very successful at educating their youth, building Yeshivos, and expanding the educational reach of the Yeshivos. You have not demonstrated any expertise at all in these areas. You can have your opinion, and you can try to knock down theirs, but ultimately, until you build your own Yeshiva, shul or Torah community, your words are just vindictive and meaningless.
Your big problem here is that you think all chareidim hold the exact same thing because they all wear black hats. You have a very superficial understanding of chareidim, like a two year old who thinks that anything red is a fire truck. Rabbi Bender is entitled to his opinion, so is Rabbi Brown, so is Rabbi Wein.
You are 100% right....but unfortunately there are segments on both sides that don't only see all black hatters the same but also obligate them to hold the same opinions
This was about Rabbi Bender. It would only be hypocritical if you showed Rabbi Bender himself supported other rallies. Which he didn't even remotely try to show.
In general you might be right, but R' Bender is not a bar shitah about this, and was expressing what he saw as the mainstream view in his world. He follows R' Brudny et al.
So Rav Bender is a hypocrite because Rav Brudny supported some other rally somewhere else? More accurately, people with black hats are hypocrites because one rabbi with a black hat said something is the mesorah, and a different black-hatted rabbi said some other black-hatted rabbis 60 years ago did something else, and a different black hatted rabbi complained about some other black hatted rabbis who refused to participate in a different rally 40 years ago. I have yet to hear a coherent complaint that doesn't sound like it's coming from a 2-year old.
I don't think you're listening at all, but I'll give it a try: R Bender expressed the mainstream yeshivishe view on the subject, based in part on "mesorah." This aligns with the claim of mesorah in the Lakewood letter. Now, mainstream yeshivishe in America trace their views to earlier mainstream yeshivishe view ("mesorah"), which in the previous dor would be to R Elya Svei, R Shmuel, and R Gifter, among others. They, among others, held we should go to such events. That belies the claim that there is a mesorah in this community for *not* going to such events.
That sounds like a more coherent complaint. The complaint is not just about what Rabbi Bender said, but why didn't all yeshivas send their talmidim, if they did in 1967? That may be a good question, but your solution is that there is actually no mesorah from R' Elya to the current yeshivish world? That doesn't make sense at all. Come up with a better answer.
This is getting confusing. Rabbi Dr. Natan says that the mesorah is actually to go to rallies.
But in the recording from Rabbi Wein, he says "they don't learn their lesson", referring to chareidi gedolim. He cites Soviet rallies as an example, that the gedolin were always opposed to rallies. So whats the mesorah? I'm a bit confused
That's a lukewarm endorsement, not leading one way or another. From what I remember reading, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as Russian as you can get, did not support the rally.
That was in that case. I hear that from Rabbanim all the time. There were times he was strong about his opinion, there were times he wasn't. I am very for a person thinking for himself but you need to know when to ask sometimes.
That's ironic, because the letter from the Moetzes made no mention of the interruption of learning, only that they didn't like the speakers and the "mixing in" with non-frum Jews etc. Which somehow high school Bais Yaakov girls can do without a problem, but the delicate Lakewood yeshiva bochurim can't. Maybe the wind would mess up their scarves. What a debacle.
Again, Chofetz Chaim admirably bucked the trend and went.
This is the only right thing you've said since the war began.* Yes - those rabbis who opposed going were 100% wrong. But it's a confidence booster in the collective wisdom of Jews, who didn't listen to those voices, and frankly didnt listen to any voices (including the many rabbis who DID encourage going), other than their own innate common sense. הנח לישראל, אם אין נביאים הם בני נביאים הם.
(* I mean about those rabbis who wrongly opposed going. The attempt to cast this as "changing masorah", so as to lump this in with all your usual ranting, is an obvious ploy and will be dismissed.)
I'm not remotely defending R' Bender's position, but I do want to explain what his position is. Charedim believe that they have a unique role to play within society. When society or the Jewish nation face a challenge, there are some people who are called to practical action and some - the Charedim and, particularly, yeshiva students - who are called to greater intensity in the spiritual sphere. Only when an issue is a uniquely Charedi cause - such as the draft - are the Charedim themselves called to take up the task of practical action, including attending rallies.
That logic seems suspect because the effect of the rally is at least proportional to the turnout. You are trying to convince politicians that it is in their interest to support this issue because of the intensity of support among the public. So it doesn’t make a difference if others will also turn out.
Good point. Additionally, 10 years ago when Aguda made a big Atzeres Tefilla for the Israeli draft, Brooklyn Yeshivas went but not one Lakewood mesivta did.
You can't have it both ways, although there is room for criticism the other way. You have argued IIRC that mesorah should be flexible as circumstances change. Here, when the charedim are doing that, you attack them for it. The bottom line is just that you don't agree with when they apply flexibility and when they continue as things have been. This is the really the central challenge of the modern, constantly-changing world facing everyone and is even at the core of the conservative-liberal divide. Sure, there's lots to disagree about but why weaponize this? Just express your disagreement, even claim that they seem inconsistent in applying flexibility or even that they sometimes pretend nothing's changed, but don't you pretend they are not flexible. That's absurd.
R' Aryeh Levin referred to the soldiers as מלאכים.
"If we make soldiers heroes now, it's going to be very hard to demote them from being heroes later."
We have no power to make soldiers heroes. They are, whether we like it or not. I don't understand why he's denigrating soldiers who engaging in real מסירת נפש, and are doing real מצות. Why not be positive and say that there are heroes in the battlefield and there are heroes in the בית מדרש.
And there are both:
עדינו העצני – כשהיה יושב ועוסק בתורה היה מעדן עצמו כתולעת, ובשעה שיוצא למלחמה היה מקשה עצמו כעץ
As the Rambam instructs the soldier:
ומאחר שיכנס בקשרי המלחמה ישען על מקוה ישראל ומושיעו בעת צרה וידע שעל יחוד השם הוא עושה מלחמה וישים נפשו בכפו ולא יירא ולא יפחד ולא יחשוב לא באשתו ולא בבניו אלא ימחה זכרונם מלבו ויפנה מכל דבר למלחמה
Can one read this Rambam, and not call the soldiers heroes?!
He claims that writing letters to soldiers doesn't help. He's wrong. My kids sent goodies to the soldiers, and it certainly boosted morale. The soldiers really appreciated it. When I was a little kid, we would craft רפואה שלימה cards to our classmates. We wouldn't told that it was useless and we should only recite תהילים and learn. Was my anti-Zionist חינוך lacking?
I don't think he understands the gravity of the situation. We don't know what the economic and political fallout will be. Both can have severe repercussions for the budgets of the Yeshivot here.
I don't have any issues with it, but if you are ambivalent about the Zionist vision then there could be issues. A major point for early opponents to Zionism was that they saw significant parallels with secular nationalistic movements of the period. Their fear was that God would be replaced by the state. Making soldiers, politicians, diplomats, civil servants, and the like into religiously admired figures runs the risk of them supplanting actual religious leaders. American and Israeli Haredi leaders still view Zionism through this late 19th century lens.
I agree with you, and it is for us the living to be dedicated to their unfinished work. The actions of the soldiers speak with themselves. Haredi leadership doesn't want to emphasize this though.
Rav Natan, I think that the Agudah had no choice but to "unendorse" participation in the rally. Agudah simply cannot endorse an event that has a pastor speaking.
That said, I was at the rally an I can assure you that there were many "black hats" in attendance.
Here is a description of a letter that R' Aharon Kotler sent to R' Gedalya Schorr after R' Aharon found out that R' Schorr was going back to America. This letter was written in the summer of 1939. (source Hamodia magazine)
...he could calmly remain in Kletzk and that he did not have to worry about a war in the near future
WWII broke out less then 2 months later and if R' Schorr had followed R' Aharon's advice he most probably would not have survived.
The question we need to ask is what is the lesson we need to take from here? The answer IMHO is that no one is infallible. Yes, RAK was a great talmid chacham but he (and almost all of the Gedolim in pre-war Europe) completely misread the situation before WWII.
RYBS said that R' Chaim thought that there would be Jews living in Brisk in 1979 just like they lived there in 1879 and therefore he didn't see the need for changes like secular education etc.
Today, the world is changing so fast that חדש אסור מן התורה doesn't work.
RAK didn't have רוח הקודש, but רבקה אמנו did. But even she misread the situation and told יעקב that there little to worry about and after a few days עשו would calm down.
I don't think anyone should assume RAK had more prophectic vision than רבקה.
In Israel our brothers and sisters lives are on the line. Currently in Gaza our troops are in the belly of the beast. I find these rulings incomprehensible
Why do they have to close the Gemaras if they travel to Washington? It’s a very long drive. They can learn on the bus just as well as they can learn in the Beis Medrash.
You can learn on the bus just as well as the Beis Medrash? I admire you, most people can't.
I'm sorry you can't learn on aa bus, and need more plush surroundings. There are 250,000 Jews displaced (or half a million), and you're kvetching about learning on a bus.
seriously?
I was saying I admire Marty Bluke, and this is your response. You need help.
You're right. I misread your comment.Sorry about that.
Let's posit arguendo that Marty Bluke is exaggerating and they might not learn "as well" for that day as the would without the trip. That is still not closing up their Gemaras for a day. People who are very serious about learning bring their learning along with them to weddings, trips, appointments, commutes, etc.
Sorry. We are talking about a bus from the yeshiva. We are not talking about a city bus or the subway. The only people on the bus would be the yeshiva students and the rabbeim. Under those circumstances you would think that they could learn pretty well.
It almost makes you wonder why there are batei medrash in the first place, right? Either way, I still admire you.
lol
I think that your messages (all of them) miss one important point. The people that you criticize have been very successful at educating their youth, building Yeshivos, and expanding the educational reach of the Yeshivos. You have not demonstrated any expertise at all in these areas. You can have your opinion, and you can try to knock down theirs, but ultimately, until you build your own Yeshiva, shul or Torah community, your words are just vindictive and meaningless.
There are plenty of non-charedi yeshivot.
So therefore? How does that answer what I have written?
You mean the one with the maharats and open orthodox rabbis supporting LGBTQ? Yeah, they sure as heck didn't build that. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
You really are great at building straw man arguments, I'll give you that.
Great letter by an anonymous Agudist: https://daastorah.substack.com/p/rally-revolution
Your big problem here is that you think all chareidim hold the exact same thing because they all wear black hats. You have a very superficial understanding of chareidim, like a two year old who thinks that anything red is a fire truck. Rabbi Bender is entitled to his opinion, so is Rabbi Brown, so is Rabbi Wein.
You are 100% right....but unfortunately there are segments on both sides that don't only see all black hatters the same but also obligate them to hold the same opinions
The answer is everyone needs to do their own homework.
I don't think he denies that they are entitled to their opinion. He just argues that their guidance is wrong and seemingly hypocritical.
This was about Rabbi Bender. It would only be hypocritical if you showed Rabbi Bender himself supported other rallies. Which he didn't even remotely try to show.
In general you might be right, but R' Bender is not a bar shitah about this, and was expressing what he saw as the mainstream view in his world. He follows R' Brudny et al.
So Rav Bender is a hypocrite because Rav Brudny supported some other rally somewhere else? More accurately, people with black hats are hypocrites because one rabbi with a black hat said something is the mesorah, and a different black-hatted rabbi said some other black-hatted rabbis 60 years ago did something else, and a different black hatted rabbi complained about some other black hatted rabbis who refused to participate in a different rally 40 years ago. I have yet to hear a coherent complaint that doesn't sound like it's coming from a 2-year old.
I don't think you're listening at all, but I'll give it a try: R Bender expressed the mainstream yeshivishe view on the subject, based in part on "mesorah." This aligns with the claim of mesorah in the Lakewood letter. Now, mainstream yeshivishe in America trace their views to earlier mainstream yeshivishe view ("mesorah"), which in the previous dor would be to R Elya Svei, R Shmuel, and R Gifter, among others. They, among others, held we should go to such events. That belies the claim that there is a mesorah in this community for *not* going to such events.
That sounds like a more coherent complaint. The complaint is not just about what Rabbi Bender said, but why didn't all yeshivas send their talmidim, if they did in 1967? That may be a good question, but your solution is that there is actually no mesorah from R' Elya to the current yeshivish world? That doesn't make sense at all. Come up with a better answer.
This is getting confusing. Rabbi Dr. Natan says that the mesorah is actually to go to rallies.
But in the recording from Rabbi Wein, he says "they don't learn their lesson", referring to chareidi gedolim. He cites Soviet rallies as an example, that the gedolin were always opposed to rallies. So whats the mesorah? I'm a bit confused
As to the rallies for Soviet Jewry R.M. Feinstein Za"Tzal said follow your conscious.
That's a lukewarm endorsement, not leading one way or another. From what I remember reading, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as Russian as you can get, did not support the rally.
Correct. The answer was use your judgement! I.E.not.the judgemen of Rabbonim.
per se.
That was in that case. I hear that from Rabbanim all the time. There were times he was strong about his opinion, there were times he wasn't. I am very for a person thinking for himself but you need to know when to ask sometimes.
That's ironic, because the letter from the Moetzes made no mention of the interruption of learning, only that they didn't like the speakers and the "mixing in" with non-frum Jews etc. Which somehow high school Bais Yaakov girls can do without a problem, but the delicate Lakewood yeshiva bochurim can't. Maybe the wind would mess up their scarves. What a debacle.
Again, Chofetz Chaim admirably bucked the trend and went.
Moetzes was talking about baalei batim, last minute change. Yeshiva bochurim were never expected to join by the moetzes.
In the Lakewood worldview CC don't count as genuine Bnei Torah. They are some sort of hybrid of Yeshivish and Modox.
not true at all. no one thinks their modox at all. they just think they don't know how to learn
modx is specifically reserved for people with 'outside' hashkafos
We know when to learn. And when not to learn 😉
hahahaha 😂
This is the only right thing you've said since the war began.* Yes - those rabbis who opposed going were 100% wrong. But it's a confidence booster in the collective wisdom of Jews, who didn't listen to those voices, and frankly didnt listen to any voices (including the many rabbis who DID encourage going), other than their own innate common sense. הנח לישראל, אם אין נביאים הם בני נביאים הם.
(* I mean about those rabbis who wrongly opposed going. The attempt to cast this as "changing masorah", so as to lump this in with all your usual ranting, is an obvious ploy and will be dismissed.)
I'm not remotely defending R' Bender's position, but I do want to explain what his position is. Charedim believe that they have a unique role to play within society. When society or the Jewish nation face a challenge, there are some people who are called to practical action and some - the Charedim and, particularly, yeshiva students - who are called to greater intensity in the spiritual sphere. Only when an issue is a uniquely Charedi cause - such as the draft - are the Charedim themselves called to take up the task of practical action, including attending rallies.
That logic seems suspect because the effect of the rally is at least proportional to the turnout. You are trying to convince politicians that it is in their interest to support this issue because of the intensity of support among the public. So it doesn’t make a difference if others will also turn out.
Doesn't work that way. Law of diminishing returns. You maximize efficiency by finding the right balance.
Good point. Additionally, 10 years ago when Aguda made a big Atzeres Tefilla for the Israeli draft, Brooklyn Yeshivas went but not one Lakewood mesivta did.
You can't have it both ways, although there is room for criticism the other way. You have argued IIRC that mesorah should be flexible as circumstances change. Here, when the charedim are doing that, you attack them for it. The bottom line is just that you don't agree with when they apply flexibility and when they continue as things have been. This is the really the central challenge of the modern, constantly-changing world facing everyone and is even at the core of the conservative-liberal divide. Sure, there's lots to disagree about but why weaponize this? Just express your disagreement, even claim that they seem inconsistent in applying flexibility or even that they sometimes pretend nothing's changed, but don't you pretend they are not flexible. That's absurd.
Feldman says, "If we make soldiers heroes now, it's going to be very hard to demote them from being heroes later."
I'm not gonna say another word.
Weren't Shaul and David Hamelech heroes because of their military achievements?
The women used to chant how Shaul killed thousands and Daivd tens of thousands, and that was the original source of Shaul's jealousy towards David.
R' Aryeh Levin referred to the soldiers as מלאכים.
"If we make soldiers heroes now, it's going to be very hard to demote them from being heroes later."
We have no power to make soldiers heroes. They are, whether we like it or not. I don't understand why he's denigrating soldiers who engaging in real מסירת נפש, and are doing real מצות. Why not be positive and say that there are heroes in the battlefield and there are heroes in the בית מדרש.
And there are both:
עדינו העצני – כשהיה יושב ועוסק בתורה היה מעדן עצמו כתולעת, ובשעה שיוצא למלחמה היה מקשה עצמו כעץ
As the Rambam instructs the soldier:
ומאחר שיכנס בקשרי המלחמה ישען על מקוה ישראל ומושיעו בעת צרה וידע שעל יחוד השם הוא עושה מלחמה וישים נפשו בכפו ולא יירא ולא יפחד ולא יחשוב לא באשתו ולא בבניו אלא ימחה זכרונם מלבו ויפנה מכל דבר למלחמה
Can one read this Rambam, and not call the soldiers heroes?!
He claims that writing letters to soldiers doesn't help. He's wrong. My kids sent goodies to the soldiers, and it certainly boosted morale. The soldiers really appreciated it. When I was a little kid, we would craft רפואה שלימה cards to our classmates. We wouldn't told that it was useless and we should only recite תהילים and learn. Was my anti-Zionist חינוך lacking?
I don't think he understands the gravity of the situation. We don't know what the economic and political fallout will be. Both can have severe repercussions for the budgets of the Yeshivot here.
What is the problem with that?
I don't have any issues with it, but if you are ambivalent about the Zionist vision then there could be issues. A major point for early opponents to Zionism was that they saw significant parallels with secular nationalistic movements of the period. Their fear was that God would be replaced by the state. Making soldiers, politicians, diplomats, civil servants, and the like into religiously admired figures runs the risk of them supplanting actual religious leaders. American and Israeli Haredi leaders still view Zionism through this late 19th century lens.
A lens that even in the 19th century was of the wrong prescription.
"A major point for early opponents to Zionism was that they saw significant parallels with secular nationalistic movements of the period."
Why didn't they create their own Zionist movement that would be distinct from secular nationalism and would be in consonance with Torah values?
Oh, give me a break. The soldiers are heroes far above your or his poor power to add or detract.
I agree with you, and it is for us the living to be dedicated to their unfinished work. The actions of the soldiers speak with themselves. Haredi leadership doesn't want to emphasize this though.
An occasional mention is not emphasis.
The way to deal with this issue is one word - decompartmentalization.
Rav Natan, I think that the Agudah had no choice but to "unendorse" participation in the rally. Agudah simply cannot endorse an event that has a pastor speaking.
That said, I was at the rally an I can assure you that there were many "black hats" in attendance.
Rav Moshe Brown, by the way, is my rebbe!
Rav Yaakov Bender suggests prayers and letters, but not sending money to Israel ? Talk is cheap and G-d knows it.
פורשים מן הציבור
Very in keeping with the Mesorah... not.
https://etzion.org.il/he/talmud/seder-moed/massekhet-taanit/%D7%AA%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%93%D7%A3-%D7%99%D7%90-%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A2%D7%9D-%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A8-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%AA-%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%94
The fact that the letters make the soldiers feel good is enough of a reason to send them. Regardless of morale/efficacy benefits.
As rabbi Wein said the people in Lakewood have no understanding of what is going on America. It reminds me of something I wrote.
https://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2009/06/what-did-r-aharon-kotler-advise.html
Here is a description of a letter that R' Aharon Kotler sent to R' Gedalya Schorr after R' Aharon found out that R' Schorr was going back to America. This letter was written in the summer of 1939. (source Hamodia magazine)
...he could calmly remain in Kletzk and that he did not have to worry about a war in the near future
WWII broke out less then 2 months later and if R' Schorr had followed R' Aharon's advice he most probably would not have survived.
The question we need to ask is what is the lesson we need to take from here? The answer IMHO is that no one is infallible. Yes, RAK was a great talmid chacham but he (and almost all of the Gedolim in pre-war Europe) completely misread the situation before WWII.
RYBS said that R' Chaim thought that there would be Jews living in Brisk in 1979 just like they lived there in 1879 and therefore he didn't see the need for changes like secular education etc.
Today, the world is changing so fast that חדש אסור מן התורה doesn't work.
RAK didn't have רוח הקודש, but רבקה אמנו did. But even she misread the situation and told יעקב that there little to worry about and after a few days עשו would calm down.
I don't think anyone should assume RAK had more prophectic vision than רבקה.
Not sure what you are trying to say here.
In Israel our brothers and sisters lives are on the line. Currently in Gaza our troops are in the belly of the beast. I find these rulings incomprehensible