This is not my style (more like a BANana vibe), but sometimes perspective helps. I write this with mad respect for the awesome writer of this letter who is clearly hurt, and is probably a truly righteous and caring woman. No hate intended, but here is a Haredi take of this political battle:
An Open Letter to our Hiloni Brethren:
We know that some of you have shared in our grief and bereavement over the Shechinah for many years and especially in the difficult days since the founding of the state of Israel. In the last seventy years, we have seen the help and solidarity efforts of many Hilonim in a variety of ways to help our mission of restoring the glory of God and abiding by His laws. We know that many have joined our cause, have done Teshuvah, and have made God a real presence in their lives.
We are also aware that you, like the whole of Hiloni society, attach great importance to secular values and misplaced spirituality (such as the importance of this land), and see in it a supreme value and even assistance in the continuity the people of Israel. But none of these can replace the study of Torah and adherence to its laws. This is the moral and civil duty of any Jew. The absence of that standard constitutes a distinction between caring about what God cares about and not caring. This reality is no longer bearable.
For those who think that they are not suited for a life of Torah, we say: Many of us are not suited to this life. None of us are suited to give up our every whim for a Higher Power. None of us are suited to sitting over these old , boring books in place of the lives every human inclination desires. We all do this because it is impossible to live without Torah, and we are all responsible for maintaining God’s presence: it cannot be that their lives are completely devoid of Torah, when I and my children bear the entire responsibility. My blood is not redder than theirs.
We don't even need you all to become Haredi. We just want you to pitch in and share the burden, or at least not complain about our shortcomings so much. They exist, no doubt, but they should be criticized only in context of appreciating our values.
We have given up hope in the leaders of the Hiloni society, the heads of governement, heads of universities, politicians and bloggers.
Call on *yourselves* to enlist in Yeshiva. To at least begin a Seder of Torah study. To keep the Mitzvot with more devotion. To start to care about the importance of the Mitzvot
We pledge to support you. We would be happy to meet to talk, and think together about how we will act towards this step.
It is thanks to Torah adherence that Israel was redeemed. May it be that thanks to you and thanks to the sons who will do Teshuvah, that He who makes will make peace in the highest places will make peace for us and for all of Israel.
This "parody" is inane. Dati Jews are already engaged in Torah and mitzvot, whereas Chiloni Jews don't care. The original letter, on the other hand, is talking about something that even Charedim agree to be crucial, but simply want to leave to others to do instead.
Rabbi Slifkin, don't listen to these trolls. Dr. Elitzur's poignant and touching letter resonates with all Jewish women of all creeds. It doesn't matter how religious you are, you have the same responsibility. You can't just abandon that responsibility. The blood of these chareidim is not redder than ours and the situation cannot remain as is! 😡😡😡
Sexist loser. You probably can't look a woman in the eye in real life. You guys have a real problem with strong, assertive women, so you oppress your women and turn them into doormats.
No pressure but I'm open to listening to you venting your frustrations at my community (which I agree allows for misogyny and sexism), if you want a listening ear, and I promise, I love everyone and don't judge, ask anyone who's gotten to know me here in these last few months.
No pressure if course and if you don't want to talk to me because I'm a religious chareidi man, I totally understand.
Actually, if you think that it is remotely appropriate to compare chilonim not learning Torah to charedim not serving in the army while hundreds of young men are dying from every other community, then there is something seriously wrong with you.
This is the big problem Slifkin. You are saying that ANY Torah is not as important as fighting in the army. You are saying chilonim who are mechallel Shabbos are better as long as they serve in the army. This is a completely secular, Reform Judaism attitude, and one that you are trying to push on chareidim at the same time that you try to convince them of army service. You are basically announcing that you want to shmad them. And of course they pick up on it right away.
I can't imagine a worse approach to getting them to serve. But it's obvious you are not really interested in their army service in the first place, but in completely changing their ideology to your version of Reform Judaism.
Kiruv organizations in Israel are doing their part in that arena already. Now it is time for Charedim to do a cheshbon hanefesh and see what they can learn from the hesder yeshiva students.
I understood what you said , the reasons WHY they don't participate is irrelevant . If anything not seeing a value in it at all, is potentially even worse.
The residents of Modiin Ilit feared a security issue and went straight to the ....army for help. They didn't run to the batei midrash to learn more Torah
Because Torah protects from army service not from the real bad guys.
I strongly disagree. He (of course it's *always* a "he") completely missed Dr. Elitzur's point. Now is not the time to be talking about Ahavat Yisrael, when hareidim are abdicating their basic responsibility. What do secluded, separatist, MISOGYNIST hareidim know about Ahavat Yisrael anyways?
To be crystal with you, we do need to be more empathetic and appreciate their concerns and value their efforts waaay more. These women have children whose lives are at real risk, and something needs to change on the Haredi side - more devotion in the Beit Midrash, or a bit of spreading the burden, but we cannot one side this battle.
Telling your yeshiva students and seminary girls not to act in public like spoiled selfish infantile beasts at places like the Pitmaster restaurant, especially while a war is going on and body bags are being sent back at a rate of half a dozen a day, might go a little way to indicating just a bit of true empathy.
I checked out this Pitmaster place, and it doesn't look like the kind of place yeshiva bochurim and sem girls should be going to anyway. I'm very surprised that they do.
You're worried about Chilul Hashem now? It's a bigger Chilul Hashem when someone writes on a blog about one of the Gedolei Hador that he had "verbal diarrhea".
I hope I am not being obtuse, but I do understand this response. The point of the Elitzur letter is that all Israeli men should serve in the IDF. On its face, this seems to be a reasonable and moral position.
Your post suggests “a Haredi take of this political battle”, but does not seem to address the point at all. Rather, it appears to be an exhortation to “our Hiloni Brethren” to see the value of Torah learning and observance. I have no argument with that. But how does it address Elitzur’s point that all men should serve? It does not appear that serving in the IDF and Torah observance are mutually inconsistent.
Wasn't trying to respond to her points. I was just saying that we should be just as mad at the Chilonim. Why all this focus on the Charedim? Feels like there's something deeper here at play...
The woman who wrote the letter is not secular. Did you read it? Plenty of young men who can learn Torah as well as Charedim and are shomer mitzvot have been killed in this war. How dare you pretend to not understand who is writing this letter.
the point he is making is that frum torah jews serve and die in the army. a signficant majority of soldier deaths are religious. would you still have written your comment above if the letter was written by only torah religious mothers? What does being chiloni have to do with anything. your comment seems out of place.
Yo, God didn’t make them secular. What do you think? Millions of charedi women in Lithuania, Hungary, Poland, Russia and elsewhere all drank at magically poisoned water wells and, poof! out came millions of secular Jewish babies?
Most of them were born into secular families and communities and think these technologically ignorant black hatters are stuck in the past, living like it's the 5th century.
"misplaced spirituality (such as the importance of this land)"
This is where chardim really fail. The land is as important as the Am, Torah, Shabbos, etc.
It would be as absurd as saying "misplaced spirituality such as the importance of shabbos" or "misplaced spirituality such as the importance of torah learning"
focusing on just torah and mitzvos and ignoring the importance of the land is like a half baked cake. charedim are half-baked
Now become an idf soldier and go and sacrifice yourselves for the am and for the land and understand what it truly means to be a yid living in eretz yisrael.
Yeah, this is totally messed up. If the choice was keeping the Torah in chu"l or being chiloni in EY, you are saying the latter. And this is how you want to convince chareidim? How deluded can you possibly be?
no one is suggesting this. please reread my comment instead of twisted my words. as an aside you obviously cant grasp the significance of eretz yisrael and how its an integral part of yiddishkeit.
eretz yisrael is every part of yidishkeit as is wearing tefilin, tzitzis etc
like i said before you cant separate shabbos from torah you cant separate eretz yisrael from torah. and if you seriously ask me for sources to back this up then you need to go to back to yeshiva or maybe your hashkafa is tainted. (fyi I'm not referring to zionism or zionistic ideologies.)
That's a machlokes I thought. Your right you can't separate Eretz Yisreal from the Torah but you can't say that makes chilonim holier, that's ridiculous. Plus we are talking about chareidim who live in Eretz Yisrael.
We love Eretz Yisroel, no doubt. And Rashi says that the keeping of the Mitzvot out of EY is only Minhag. True all that. But at the end of the day, living in EY during Galut is not the tippy top priority, bro. It is a Mitzvah Kiyumit, Not Chiyuvit. If it cameto a point that we onl could learn Torah properly out side of EY, Charedim would prioritize Torah.
Well, it’s not shocking to see such corrosive whataboutism in defense of the Shechina. While Chiloni, Hesder and Druze mothers’ lives are forever shattered by the death of their children in defense of their homeland, callous chareidim wail over their impotent Shechina. Whatsamatter? The Shechina can’t take care of itself? It must rely on you to protect its holy mercurial and transformable temperment? So go ahead and wring your hands. The Torah will protect you — as long as you can employ it as a stratagem to justify your ultra-chareidi cowardice.
U's W, my dear friend, you are showing vibes of some serious frustration from our last chat. I meant no ill; I was just pointing out a criticism. But I can't control how you feel about me and if you wanna be mad, that's cool.
To your point, "callous chareidim wail over their impotent Shechina" - the callous part is fair, and we all should seriously work on our empathy game. But once again, you are showing nothing but your ignorance about the Shechinah. If you're down to a deep convo about the whole God thing, we can go there, but to the matter at hand, if there *is* a God, He wants us to give a hoot about His place on this world, because He loves us. He created a world in which He "needs" us to make His presence known, and when we care about Him beyond ourselves we are partnering with Him to make the world a better place.
This probably seems way out to you, being that you're not even sold on that He exists, but if you are calling us names and hating us, you should first fact check your premises, 'cause if the truth's on our side, you have the whole script flipped.
Exactly 💯! Hareidim are idol worshippers with their Gadolim and Rebbes. How dare they lecture us about religion! It gets me so incensed every time they speak to me in that patronizing tone, like "woman, get back in the kitchen", while I have rabbinical ordination and know ten times the Torah they do.
Yah, I'll probably get hurt if I take it too hard. But I do love hearing another perspective! I wonder what someone could think is pagan about that comment?
Your lost your argument on the first line. You addressed your letter to "Chiloni Bretheren" But you are reesponding to letter from Religious Zionist parents. Many of their kids in combat are just as big masmidim and lamdanim as anyone learning in charedi yeshivos. Your letter is incoherent if addressed to Religoious Zionist. You have no coherent response to us and our rabbanonim.
"You have no coherent response to us and our rabbanonim."
Sure we do. You just don't like it, so you call it "no coherent response". First address the major problems in your own communities before complaining about other communities.
you have not presented a coherent response. instead we get a letter addressed to hilonim which ignores our existence. As for complaining about chareidim- In America you might be right- live and let live. But here in Israel - the fact that your refuse to serve in the army give your boys even the most basic secular education and have very low particpation rate in the workforce, and use you very significan to politcal power to make sure no of this changes and to demand that the goverment support this- directly impacts every Israeli- you are asking me to pay for this in taxes (the charedi community as whole recieves far far more tax money than it pays in) and in our kids spending more time in the Army. You are asking our kids to risk their lives for you. So yes you owe us explanations. we owe you none- we are not demand that you support and defend us.
Wow. A whole laundry list of complaints. So this was never really about the army in the first place, but just "I don't like those icky stinky primitive hareidim". And of course, not the least attempt to understand their position, which leads to laughable blunders like thinking some feminist Talmud professor who teaches a women's semicha program will convince them.
If you are who I think you are, I am actually shocked that you never saw the chareidi arguments for exemptions for Torah students.
We are not asking your kids to risk their lives. We would rather they learn in yeshiva and receive an exemption too. Too bad you don't want to give them that opportunity. Torah is the backbone and endurance of the Jewish nation, and it's a shame you can't acknowledge that.
if all of our kids who learn in Yeshiva never left ot go to the army- we would not have a functional army and we would all be dead. Of course I am aware of the charedi arguments- but Charedim never respond to the challenges possed to these arguments by talmidei chachamim who do not buy into your worldview (and as we have seen this includes among others R. Gustman zt"l) you act as if our rabbis and our communities dont exist. Of course I agree that Torah is the backbone of the endurence of the Jewish nation. We are only debating how to apply Torah not that God has restored us to independance in eretz yisrael and the place of Talmud Torah in that scheme. But again you cannot acknowledge this.
If this, if that, if the other thing. There are currently unfortunately far too many kids who do not want to learn at all, and who want to serve. The ones who are interested in learning (and I give credit to those communities which actually produce kids who are interested in learning) should be encouraged to stay in learning. It's a crying shame that you take that opportunity away from them.
We do not need to respond to challenges posed by a different worldview. How about you respond to the challenges to your ideology posed by the chareidi worldview? Or better yet, the Satmar/Neturei Karta worldview? Does that sound fair?
If you agree Torah is the backbone of the Jewish nation, you should appreciate chareidim's limud Torah and how it protects the entire Jewish nation, even if you disagree with their exemption.
There are many chilonim who are moser nefesh to klal yisroel and devote themselves to yishuv haaretz- there are many chareidim who dont have much to to their credit, others who are mamash rishoim. I hvae no doubt in my mind that Herzl and Ben Gurion- who get the schar for all mitzos preformed by Jews in Eretz Yisrael- as none of would be here with out them- recieve great reward in Olam haba.
Ok, it works the other way around also , noone is saying every Charedi is a tzadik gammur and every chiloni is a a rasha ad maod. I don't see any relevance to this point here.
The Charedim are very happy to admit their system isn't perfect.
The person making the claims in the response letter above (the claims of how Torah works in the world) is making claims of the non falsifiable kind. It’s how all religions operate. Make a claim that cannot be verified. Cannot be proven or disproven. One that we cannot make heads or tails of. It's the realm of the charlatan, too.
Those kinds of claims constitute errors in logic. In this sense, they are not an argument. They are often used to manipulate those who are not wise to their logical weakness. They are persuasive sounding - but have no place, logically, in persuading people.
Those who protect life with their lives in the army make the falsifiable claim. If they don’t kill and die for the people, the people will be killed. The rave party goers who were slaughtered needed soldiers to kill and die to protect them. Hours after many were killed, such soldiers showed up and did just that. The threat was neutralized this way. Quod erat demonstatum.
The haredi want to use false, error filled, thinking to make their case, and rely wholly on that which cannot be proven or disproven. Charlatans use this kind of trick thinking as well. It works on some. Particularly young people.
The haredi should make claims that are logically valid. Or at least stop using this chicanery to trick people with bad logic.
It’s not a good look. It’s not a valid form of real persuasion. It is designed to trick those who don’t know better about logic.
it's not a question of belief. these are logical fallacies. it is called the unfalsifiable statement fallacy. It cannot be proven right (or wrong.) It is not a serious argument. it is dismissed based on faulty logic.
The argument about whether soldiers with guns killing and dying actually saves lives can be evaluated. It is a falsifiable statement. It shows itself to be true in a case like Oct 7 (which is why all societies have police, and armed forces. To respond, and neutralize attacks.)
The argument about the value of the IDF is logical. It can't dismissed for its lack of logic.
There is a religious saying (in other religions.) "Faith can move mountains." If someone says they have faith, but can't move mountains, the answer from the religious leader is "you just don't have enough faith." This is a slightly different version of a non-falsifiable statement.
It's logically gobildigook. Usually used to guilt people, or scare people, or prey on people. It can make people feel inadequate - for their lack of faith, for their doubts about the assertion. This is an added plus if you are trying to control someone. Which is why charlatans use it. Cult leaders.
That hypothetical open letter was awash in it. As far as the logic of his arguments go, it must be dismissed.
The falsifiable assertion that the IDF risks lives and saves lives can be fairly easily evaluated, and found to hold water as an assertion.
But the guy making the religious claims knows there is no way to test its validity (which is why it is fun to use on those who don't pick up on the persuasive sounding but facile argument. It works well on young people, sometimes.) It's the provenance of charlatans.
Another reason religious authority figures use it, is due to another fallacy, the false authority fallacy. Some people naturally believe things a religious authority claims are true, even when there is no way make heads or tails of its truth content.
This stuff both has a way of sounding true, but are actually logically weak, and also are the kind of arguments made by authority figures, who know that some people believe what authority figures say.
It's a thinking error, and should be avoided when seeking to make a solid, logical, grounded, and honest, and genuinely persuasive argument.
i'm not a believer in using belief in arguments. Religious beliefs do tend to be of the non-falsifiable kind. They're not an argument. They're an article of faith. They're not proofs - they're a different category.
The reason religious people and cults use them is because (while not actually persuasive) they can sound persuasive, especially coming from an authority figure, or a "learned" person.
It's a kind of abuse of logic, a form of flim flam. People who use logical fallacies are trying to sneak one past you, not persuade you. It's pretty disrespectful, but it's very common in religions, and cults, and cons. Politics too, actually.
Falsifiable is kinda a scam. Like when you think something is true you call it falsifiably but when it gets falsified you find an excuse. Like evolution.
But this is a religious argument , if you put religion aside , of course they cant prove it logically and of course going to the army makes sense .
If there was a clear passuk in the Torah exempting chareidim , it would be illogical but noone here would argue.
There are many things in Torah that cant be proved logically ( the 2 examples I gave above).The argument here is based on an undersanding of Torah , not some external logic.
Yo! You should write for IM!!! This was a great parody - Irrationalist Modoxism: A lighthearted parody/critique of Rationalist Judaism) - although probably too respectful for their taste:)
At the point where you said "Hiloni" where the letter was obviously written by someone who isn't Hiloni, I knew I was in for an awful comment. But I didn't realize how callous and vile it would be.
This may qualify as a cogent response, if it the recipient were not secular Jews.
" We just want you to pitch in and share the burden"
Wrong message. A better reply, would be "we too are chipping in; we too share in the burden, even if such a burden doesn't involve the same risks and sacrifice."
To demand from someone who's sending their child to the front lines, that they should do more is tone deaf.
I think that's a mean thing to say. I think the sacrifice and ordeals of soldiers and their families is too frequently not on their radar. To be sure, there are plenty of Charedim who do respect the soldiers- R' Aryen Levin's calling them מלאכים, and R' Osher Weiss referring to supporting soldiers as קודש קדשים. But those voices and attitudes must be the mainstream.
We have seen very little of that here in the comments.
This is a complete joke. You really thought that some female rabbi who has a women's Talmud institute and advocates for "religious pluralism" is going to convince chareidi women to abandon the daas Torah that is their mother's milk???!
How. Delusional. Can. You. Be.
Completely untethered from reality.
In terms of the question itself, it was already explained there are two type of people who call themselves "National Religious". There are those who have similar beliefs in the Torah as chareidim, and there are those who are primarily secularists with a bit of Jewish flavor. It is the latter who promote hatred for the chareidim, while the former may disagree with chareidim, but appreciate them.
Right, it's delusional to think that anyone in the charedi community will listen to a plain truth that the situation is utterly unfair and intolerable. After all, if they wouldn't listen to it from Moshe Rabbeinu, they certainly won't listen to it from someone that they consider not even properly frum! Heck, her kids are expendable.
Yes, yes, the Torah is all about slogans! Just listen to Erez Eshel and some female rabbi! Why not add Rabbi Sally to the bandwagon? This will certainly convince all those chareidim women!
Disgusting and misogynistic. You guys can't hold a CANDLE to Rabbi Sally Preisand! She could learn circles around all your Gadolim and Rebbes. Guess what guys, it's not 5th cent ad anymore. Women can best you in anything, including rabbinics! Time you got the message!
I'm sorry, you are exactly what I was talking about with Elitzur (although she is probably not as bad). Some feminist female rabbi promoting Reform Judaism. And this is what you are using to convince chareidim to serve?! Are you out of your mind?
Aren't you ashamed of mocking the memory of a righteous man and great Jewish leader like R. Schneerson, זצ''ל?
Putting his image and saying stupid things like the last clause of your sentence? Are you an ignorant non Jew or do you have some psychological issues that explain this foolish behaviour?
The letter and the tears of widows, mothers who lost sons, and children without fathers should open the hearts of people who have hardened their hearts. Drip drip drip it will sink in.
Yes for most but it makes them uncomfortable. And discomfort can be a catalyst to change. They know they are wrong. Huge defense mechanisms to distract and project.
It does make us uncomfortable. Who wouldn't be uncomfortable when their brothers are dying. But thankfully, we are able to distinguish between emotions and facts. And the fact is that most of you guys don't appreciate the importance of Torah. Many of you, like Slifkin, openly display contempt for Torah. So we are the ones protecting Klal Yisrael.
Well, according to BANana, Chareidim will unfortunately ignore tears of widows and mothers who lost sons because they're not dressed completely tznius. Oh well
This letter was not written by a widow (which would at least be understandable). It was written by a feminist Academic Talmud professor who teaches a mixed female semikha program, telling chareidi women to stop listening to all those rabbis. This not even making the slightest effort to understand the intended audience. It's a joke, and shows how fundamentally unserious the chareidi haters are.
She is not a charedi hater. there is no hatred in the letter. (she is also not an academic Talmud scholar but a talmidat chachamim who wote a doctorate on the Rosh under Harav Professor Yaakov Blidstein tz"l- a talmid muvhak of the Rav and tremendous yerei shamayim) It is also true that she is not a widow. But she lives in constant fear of becoming a widow, he daughter becoming a widow of of losing one of her sons. That should be enough to make her letter understandable. You have no concept to the sacrifices and suffering of that RZ (and other Israeli) mothers and wives make so that we can live in this Land, while charedi women sleep soundly with their husband and sons never leaving kollel- even if they are not learning. It is you who have not and cannot make the slightest effort to understand the author and the many other women who signed the letter. If you did you might come to question the "gedolim". So you choose a hardened heart lest your "emunah" be shaken.
you really know nothing about the Relgious Zionsit community. you assume that anyone who criticizes the charedim are "primarily secularist." Criticism of the Charedi community especially for its refusal to sends it children to the army come from the RZ communities greatest Talmidei chachamim. Our criticism of the chrareid world comes precisely from our commitment to Torah study and observance.
Yeah, read the link I posted, if you are at all curious. I never said that RZ rabbis don't criticize chareidim, I said they don't express resentment and hatred. They understand the tremendous merit of Torah study and appreciate the chareidim's commitment, even if they disagree with them. This female rabbi is certainly not representative of the Torahdike Chardal community. If I am getting the right Moshe Shoshan, you yourself are a secularist, like Slifkin, and so of course you will try to attribute your opinions to the entire RZ world.
If you call RSRH, Rav Dov Zvi Hoffman, RYBS and the Seridei esh, not to mention the Rambam, secularlists, then yeah- I am a secularist, I acknowelge the value of engagement in the world outside the deled amot of the Beis medrash. in some cases it is an absolute obligation.
But what you are seeing here is not hatred it is anger. You have no concept of the suffering that the RZ community is going through these days precisely because of their commitment to כל מלאכת עבודת הבורא. Eretz yisrael niknes beyissurin. But your community has declared itself exempt from these yissurin, because אפשר לעשות על ידי אחרים. You can only keep you kids learning Torah in Eretz Yisrael at the expense not only of the bittul torah of others, (and Zahal would fall apart if the RZ adopted the charedi position on the Army) but of the suffering and death of others. so yes many people in DL community are reaching the breaking point on this selfish, self-seving ideology. and yes this anger exists in the the chardal world which you idealize. But you have made it clear you care not a whit about the suffering of other Jews, done on you behalf. I think it is fair to be angry at people like you. and at the many Rabbinic leaders of your community who speak with the same distain for those who keep you alive.
"It is clear that you don't care a whit about Torah or Hashem"
This - THIS - is why so many people find you abhorrent. Just because Moshe Shoshan doesn't share your charedi ideology, it means that he doesn't care one whit about Torah or Hashem?! Simply vile.
Flip this around , and thats exactly how every chareidi feels reading this blog. Whether intentional or not, its certainly the sentiment that comes across.
GUYS, STOP!!!!! Woah, I started going through the comments and didn't realize at first the level of vitriol going on here! STOP. STOP. STOP. ALL OF YOU. This is not how we are going to bring the geula! We need Ahavas Yisroel, as the Rebbe always taught us! Not this bickering! Moshiach is right around the corner, but this bickering is not going to help things at all. Y'all all have to stop, stop, stop. Immediately!
That's okay. I agree with you. In the meantime, whenever in doubt, I choose to err on the side of the rational.
If your shitah is already rational, or if when in doubt you prefer to err on the side of hislahavus, that's perfectly alright with me. I am not a "shitah inquisitor". Hashkafa is not the most important aspect of a yid.
Despite my approach of *presuming* rationality over the mesoirah of any particular cheilek of klal yisrael, I still believe in Moshiach Now.
See this video for what I mean. The Rebbe caused me to be born and I had the zchus of seeing him and experiencing him in this world.
I take the Rebbe very very seriously and in some of my videos you can even see his picture on the wall.
I consider what he might say to me if we were in yechidas. One can never know for sure but everyone knows d'veikus is good even after a tzaddik is nistaleik.
My point is that I am not one to ignore the Rebbe. I simply have a different understanding than the usual one about who the Rebbe was.
Nonetheless, my view is that the Rebbe not only *was* among the greatest leaders of a Malchus Shamayim here in the world, but that he is ASTONISHINGLY *still* the greatest "living" Rebbe of Kal Yisroel.
And I assumed that my earlier reply was a private reply to you in your private "notes" (whatever that is).
Understanding now my error, let me say that I don't believe in saying דבר שלא נשמע which is why I would not have recommended that you leave this group *within* the group itself, which of course is full of people who feel otherwise.
But once I apparently did, and you responded that you can not, because you are trying to bring the geulah, let me encourage your response.
I do not understand this generation or how internet conversations work in general, but if you believe that your chizuk for ahavas yisrael can have success here than I bless you with love and success.
The people here, both Nosson and his commentors are children of Israel and properly worthy of grand expectations.
I googled this Dr. Tehila Elitzur. My advice to her is, if she wants to have even half a percentage point of probability that any Charedi women take her seriously, she should stop wearing such low-cut blouses. It's very hard to take religious arguments from a secularist seriously. Just ask Natan Slifkin! He's been banging his head against a brick wall for the last 15 years and has got absolutely nowhere!
I guess you're assuming that chareidi women are so shallow and childlike that they would summarily dismiss a serious issue just because the person making it happens to be dressed in an untznius fashion.That's sad.
Well, a woman who goes around showing her chest off is showing pretty clearly that she's coming from a completely different value system than Charedi women are. So yes, I don't think they would take such a person seriously. The same way the Nshot of Gush Etzion would not take a letter from Nshei Bnois Yoiel of Monroe about the issur tzioines seriously.
Oh yes, it would be. But she's going to have to convince them that serving in the army is more important than the value of learning Torah, which they may have strong reason to suspect that she does not put heavy stock in anyway.
I have known Dr. Elitzur for many years. I have never seen her dressed in a way that could be construed as untzanua. She may not conform to charedi standards of tziniut, but if you have any knwoledge of hilchot tziut you would know that it is highly dependant on communal standards. There is no halakhic prohibition on a women wearign a shirt that exposes a few inches below the collar bone. IF she is coming from a completely different value system it is because she knows vasly more torah than 99.9% of chardei women and than vast majoirty of charedi men. Dr. ELitzur has faith in charedi women that they are not as shallow and simple minded as the men.
Chareidim have stricter standers of tzenius. And it doesn't help to say she knows more Torah. Chareidim don't buy that claim. But she's in pain, even if she was chiloni that's importatnt.
" The same way the Nshot of Gush Etzion would not take a letter from Nshei Bnois Yoiel of Monroe about the issur tzioines seriously."
A little discretion is in order. If word gets out that one of these N'shei B'nois Yoiel is taken seriously, they may be thrown out of the community. It's not modest for a woman to be taken seriously.
Great. Now, instead of sitting with your gemara, you are using Google to check out "immodestt" photos of other mens' wives. It would be more efficient, at the very least, to go straight to a porn site, do whatever it is you need to do, and go back to that masechet (after proper netilat yadayim).
If only you knew how this reveals you for the filthy-minded, out of control bottom feeder you are, but no, you are self-reporting. Fech.
She is not. She is related to many other great scholars of Judaism, incluidn gher grandfather E.E. Urbach and her grandfather in law Yudah Elitzur. They also contribued "something"
Nowhere? How do you know? I know of many young chareidim who have a different viewpoint due to him. Many have the sense not to publicize it, of course.
If he was genuinely getting nowhere you and your merry men wouldn't bother wasting a substantial amount of time here with your feeble leitzonus.
If he was out to change Israeli charedim he’d write this blog in Hebrew. It would seem to me that he is looking to ensure that Anglo charedim who move to Israel understand that by joining the Israeli charedi community they are entering a very different world than many of the moderate charedi communities in America, the UK and other locations.
He doesn't speak fluent Hebrew. He writes this blog in English because that's the only language that he's fluent in. He's trying to change Charedim, and the public perception of Charedim, in order to effect change in them. At least so he claims. And he has gotten nowhere. I don't think that he really has any noble goal other than the fact that he is extremely bitter and this is his venue to vent.
But you are also not communicating with Israeli chareidim? They don't speak this language (I won't be naive enough to add they have no internet access). So what is your point and purpose?
Clearly you believe he is also marketing to English speaking chareidim. And in that respect, yes, he is triggering thought amongst young English speaking chareidim.
It seems you don't really know what your objective is.
You’re the one coming across as bitter. What bothers you? Feeling like you’ve wasted away your life by not becoming a gadol and not really having many prospects?
I actually get a kick out of fighting with Natan and his guys. Definitely am not consumed with hate or lose sleep over it. Unlike other people, who have made knocking communities into a life's obsession.
yes. they make a choice to enter into an extremist community and abandon the values many of them were raised in. That is why the so called "moderate" anglo charedi community in Israel has much more to answer for than the tikokos shenishbau who grew up here.
I'm not sure where Natan plays a role in all this. I don't know whether or not the Yeshivos have been suffering more since 10/7. It's possible, but I don't think that Natan played a role in it. Shai Graucher may have. Hence R' Landau's opposition to him.
NS had literally nothing to do with anything. The Mir is hurting now bc real estate is still in the gutter. There have indeed been some reallocations of funds, but this is not due to anyone in particular, just the feeling that right now funds are more important in X than Y.
If that is happening it would be wonderful. This Rabbi Landau fellow should have paid heed to the sages before having a bout of verbal diarrhea in public and on camera:
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
Achdut is not about forcing everyone to agree with you, or to behave in a certain situation as you would, achdut is about respecting each other and working together DESPITE disagreements, both parties are working towards the same goal. They just have different ways of doing so.
You just see no value in one parties efforts.That is your issue, give them some respect and you may get some in return, then we can discuss the best way about going about things together.
"You can’t talk about hurting achdut where there is no achdut" - NO, you can always make things worse.
He can still do teshuva! It is never too late for a Yid to do teshuva. R' Nosson, where do you live? I can arrange for someone to come put tefillin on you.
dont know about him, but his gids and grand kids are going to some of the hottest places in the counrty for their miltary service b"h. Some may be with my son in Gaza, which is super "hot" these days.
When the country is at war then learning Torah all day is a luxury. Only the very elite of scholars should do that. The rest need to join up. Or do something else like replace people who are at the front. It’s beyond ridiculous.
Torah is not a luxury. Having a Secular Jewish state in the Land of Israel is a luxury. It is only on the merit of those that study and keep the Torah that it happens.
"Having a Secular Jewish state in the Land of Israel is a luxury. It is only on the merit of those that study and keep the Torah that it happens."
1) Please clarify whether bringing up " Secular Jewish state" is a non sequitur or actually relevant to your point. (You could have brought up other luxuries, like recliners, striped toothpaste or wingtip shoes.) You seem to imply that what you call a "Secular Jewish state" survives on the merit of Torah study. It's an odd claim, that probably sounds more odd in Ponevezh than it would in Mercaz HaRav. It also implies a possible corollary claim that a Halachic State would not need so much merit, and could do with less Torah study.
2) You should listen more closely. Think about the connotation of the word "luxury" as uttered by NSYA, and how you use it. You mean it as something which is not needed. NSYA means it as something too leisurely, too comfortable as opposed to bare bones basics and spartan. The implication is that siting in a climate controlled Yeshiva, sleeping on clean beds, daily showers, regular meals, snacks and coffee, fresh underwear and no risk of injury death, nor no trauma is a relative luxury. But you're not understanding "luxury" in that connotation. You're using the wrong connotation because you've missed the context. And such, your response is not to the point because you don't even acknowledge the point you're replying too.
Pick your top learners and prayer. Just like in tne IDF not everyone is in an elite unit. You guys get an elite unit of learners and daveners. Like 10%. The rest. Serve.
This has nothing to do with sharing a burden. And nothing to do with achdus. Stick to the point, if you can.
כל ישראל ערבים זה לזה
Yes, that is a Halacha of arvus, that people are responsible for other people's mitzvos and aveiros. Again, nothing to do with achdus.
דעלך סני, לחברך לא תעביד
Yes, right. So you don't like letters publicized against you, don't do it to others. Nothing to do with achdus, serving in the army, or learning Torah.
האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה
Not relevant here. That is for the local Mitzvah of conquering Eretz Yisroel from the Canaanites. Not connected to this, unless you wish to make some kind of homiletic reference.
Basically, you have nothing. Diddly squat. But don't let that stop you. The less you have, the louder you yell.
If you can't see the idea of shared responsibility anywhere in these sources, AND if you represent the charedi perspective, then I can't think of a more powerful demonstration of how the charedi approach to Torah is utterly perverted.
Whether it's relevant here is a legitimate question. Rav Zevin certainly thought it relevant. But it should be relevant to everybody for at least some situations.
"That is for the local Mitzvah of conquering Eretz Yisroel from the Canaanites."
I must protest this attitude. It relegates narratives in the תורה to mere stories with no relevance but the historic context in which they occurred. Such an attitude means you can learn no lessons from "stories" in the תורה.
I also protest this attitude. I think it is important to draw parallels between Natan Slifkin and Korach, and if you don't do that, it relegates narratives in the תורה to mere stories with no relevance but the historic context in which they occurred. Such an attitude means you can learn no lessons from "stories" in the תורה.
R Mordechai Neugroschel pointed out that the pesukim explicitly say that Moshe Rabbeinu was talking to sheep herders. So there's that. https://youtu.be/vNpC7yUHrsM (10min mark.)
you are clearly an amhaaretz or a talmid chacham shein bo daas. to take one example, no less that Rav Gustman zt"l applied האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה to yeshiva bochrim going to the army.
So the authority of Rav Gustman and Rav Zevin is absolute, yet the Chazon Ish, the Tchebiner Rav, Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz, Rav Shach, and more, are all irrelevant.
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
Regarding the comments, some of the trolls are brilliant - and really entertaining (here's looking at you
בקרוב ממ"ש!) Some of the comments I'm not sure whether they are deliberately trolling, or really that oblivious to reality (which I assume is the ultimate objective of a troll)
Anyway, to save some of you guys the trouble coming up with irrelevant comments, there is now a bot that can do the trolling for you:
I think a troll's ultimate objective is just to start fights. You can therefore never really argue or reason with him, because he'll just change the topic or something like that to keep the fight going.
Ah, Natan Slifkin and his naive notions. Sending Charedi sons to the army, you say? How utterly preposterous! The Charedi community has a long-standing tradition of dedicating themselves to Torah study and religious observance. To suggest that they should abandon their sacred duties and join the army is nothing short of sacrilege.
The army is not a place for the Charedi community. Their focus should be on preserving their religious heritage and contributing to their communities through Torah learning and spiritual pursuits. The idea that they should be subjected to the secular environment and potentially compromise their values is simply unacceptable.
Furthermore, the army is a dangerous place, full of violence and uncertainty. It is not a suitable environment for individuals who have dedicated their lives to a path of peace and spirituality. It would only serve to expose them to unnecessary risks and challenges that are far removed from their way of life.
So, my dear interlocutor, let us not entertain such absurd thoughts. The Charedi community has a sacred duty to continue their traditions and contribute to society in their own unique way. The army is not the place for them, and we should respect and appreciate their commitment to their faith.
Uhm, did you read the commentators on the parsha yesterday? The bit about the women who refused to stop having babies even when the Gedolim and leaders said to stop having babies. Or were you out at the Kiddush club all day?
Chareidi mothers want their boys to marry Chareidi girls. Very few Chareidi girls will consider a bochur who has enlisted in the IDF. This initiative is doomed.
exactly. Charedim care about being charedi, not about following the Torah and doing the right thing. it just so happens that being charedi involves doing most mitzvos. but when push come to shove, shiduchim are more important than Torah. I have actually pointed this out once to a super chareidi women (from RBS B) she concured with me.
This post is based on an outsider's misunderstanding of the sub-cultures in Eretz Yisroel.
For many years, Mizrachi/Mafdal voters/Religious Zionists were the equivalent of the MO in Chutz La'aretz. They didn't have a coherent ideology, they were people who wished to live in this world while staying religious. Any possible heter was utilized, and if a mistake was made, it wasn't a real problem. Halacha and Torah were just another value in a list of personal goals, with no overriding importance. They believed in Zionism, but the Torah part was an afterthought.
Only a tiny minority were seriously committed, and they were not the face of the community at all.
This group cannot accept a community with values that override the secular surroundings. 'Be religious, but be normal at the same time', with normal a euphemism for 'following the surroundings, whatever they do'.
In the 80s and 90s, things changed. Merkaz Harav underwent some serious turmoil then, and the great leaders of their community - Reb Zvi Yehuda and Reb Moshe Zvi, passed away. But a new generation was born, different to their predecessors. These were seriously committed Charedim, devoted to learning and keeping Torah in the best way possible. But because they were ideological followers of Rav Kook, they considered settling the land and defending it an equal Mitzvah to others. They brought that zeal to their Zionism too. When misguided, it ended up in serious violence and total lack of discipline. But those who are not pir'ei adam are earnest about their Yiddishkeit, and they try and learn as much as possible. Some are serious Talmidei Chachamim, their flagship Yeshiva is Har Hamor, as well as Merkaz Harav, in a limited fashion.
When Charedim talk about the RZ who are unperturbed about their lack of service, they mean this second group. They know what living with ideals means, and they understand when others do so too, even when they disagree with them. They know that they have more in common with Charedim than they have disagreements about, and they respect their positions.
Exactly what chareidim do, when they have a particular desire to do (or not do) something.
Some classic examples;
Kiddush on a thimbleful of whiskey
Hetter Ista for non business personal loans
Mechiras chometz
Nursing Homes and other 24/7 businessess - relying on some flimsy bits of paper and sham arrangements (yeah, right the nursing home business is really sold to the non Jewish home manager every shabbos and pesach and bought back immediately afterwards - if the modox came up with that one, and chareidim didn't need the hetter, chareidim would be all over it). Numerous Amazon drop-shipping businessess operate throughout Yom Kippur - it's against Amazon rules to have any periods where the business is not operarable - chareidim are remarkabaly chilled about it (yes, I know its 'only' a d'rabbonon, other than chometz on pesach in those nursing homes)
Kullos in sirchos that are unknown to shulchan oruch and the key nosei keilim - some of those kullos arrived very late - this is a sofek do'erisoh of course.
This is not at all accurate history of RZ or of Mercaz Harav. You are correct though that there is a very small, extreme group of chardallnickim who are very close to charedim. Even most of those who identify with the Kav are not that extreme.
My nephew stationed in the north can learn Torah as well as any of you Charedim after several years in yeshiva. But he serves. He leaves his wife and kids. All of my nieces husbands serve. They are not secular. Charedim who don’t serve are outrageous.
Sadly, this letter will fall on deaf ears. The ultra-orthodox (charedi) will not budge or honor their moral obligations to Israeli society, or share any of the defence or economic burdens as long as they can freeload off the productive members of society.
"This is all the more true since October 7th, when hundreds of IDF soldiers have fallen and many others have been injured, including a large number from the national-religious community, but none from the charedi community. "
Well if the charedim actually served in the army then there would likely be some. But see - the charedi world today are the descendants of those charedim who ensured that the orphans and the poor and the children of widows were the ones grabbed to fill the quota of the cantonists in the Czar’s army, and even engaged the khappers to grab them so that their own children would not be taken. So it’s actually quite a long sordid history around the “privilege” of being the ones to go to yeshiva.
You weren't there, and you probably didn't read anything written by someone who was there. The canards of the secularists were written a generation later, for good reason. Nobody who was actually there assigned blame to the Rabbanim.
It seems you know as much about the ch(kh)appers and their history as you know about my sources. Not only do you know nothing about my sources, you also have no way of finding out.
Yet, here you are, making absolute statements. Why not? Who needs knowledge for that? Knowledge is for Charedim! A sheygetz has better ways of spending his time.
No problem. The Chofetz Chaim said that the Ukrainian pogroms in the 1920s during which over 100,000 Jews were slaughtered and hundreds thousands more raped, pillaged and injured, were God’s punishment for the Khappers and the communal abandonment of the cantonist children.
Why didn't the mothers of the cantonists write an open letter calling on the rich mothers to send their kids to the russian army? That would've done the trick.
Well, my grandfather was a chapper and my great uncle was a kapo. So....
But seriously, I don't think it's cruel to respond to Dr Slifkin's posting of this letter. Nor to comments like yours. Maybe don't go calling entire communities immoral and descendants of chappers if you want empathetic responses.
Fascinating - do you have a link to an article about the Chafetz Chaim's response to the pogroms? (Until I read this thread, I had never heard of the Khappers, but a quick search lead me to a Wikipedia page about them - isn't the internet amazing)
I have a good friend who served in the IDF and is a rabbi and תלמיד חכם. He has a copy of this Sefer which his grandfather kept with him when he served in the US Army during WWII. He took it with him when he served in the IDF 40 years later.
A lot of the cantonists kept their religion and after their release from the Czar’s army returned to the Jewish community - and even established their own Jewish communities outside the pale of settlement.
The modern charedi argument that serving in the IDF will spiritually weaken their youngsters and this is a reason to self-exempt is a complete fiction. It’s a sad reflection on the state of charedi educational output if that’s what their leadership believes. They have all of the tools and materials needed to maintain - and even improve - their childrens’ religiosity and spiritual levels while doing their duty to their people and serving in the armed forces.
Not all Charedim are chappers. Just a specific chassidus in New York, right off the bridge from Manhattan. But we won't go into details, in the spirit of ahavas yisroel.
Probably. I would have been khapped by the goons of a charedi rosh yeshiva and forced into 25 years of army service and a forced conversion to Christianity.
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
This post hits upon a raw, painful issue which has been a source of strife and contention for the entire 75-year existence of the state. Put simply, it is a classic דו שיח חרשים a discussion between deaf people which can go nowhere. It is indisputable that there are no Charedi casualties from the wars in the Batei Midrash. Its also indisputable that the Torah world (and Judaism in general) would be exceptionally poorer if not for the explosion of growth in the charedi yeshivos. As one who studied both in Hesder and Charedi yeshivos, there isn't just a qualitative difference in the learning, there is also a huge chasm in life outlook between the two worlds, a chasm which would be hard to close simply by forcing people into frameworks they cannot live in.
A youth who chooses to go to the army, especially if he enlists in a combat unit, cannot succeed as a soldier until he changes and morphs into a different person, a fighter and a killer. He is trained and honed to be different, and however gentle he may be by nature, he must disavow this side of him in the battlefield. He may return to the yeshiva and immerse himself once again in learning, but underneath there is a steely, harsh side which it is hard to eschew after being in a military milieu for so long.
Similarly, a youth who choose to go to yeshiva, especially the more serious and prominent ones, cannot succeed in studying full time until he changes and morphs into a Ben Torah, devoting his life and future to endless study. He is trained and honed to learn at all times and even when he leaves the yeshiva, there is a unique sense of commitment to comporting himself as a representative of Torah, in appearance, speech, technological permits and cultural lifestyle.
There are of course many in the middle- those who don't fit the yeshiva model or the army-yeshiva model in the national religious camp. Most of these will eventually find themselves serving in a non-combat role or in Shlav Bet frameworks enabling charedim to work.
It is true that many charedim who don't fit the yeshiva model could integrate into meaningful combat service and stay chareidi, but the price both for them and their community would be too high: It would threaten the model they have set as the ideal for their children, challenge the entire lifestyle of seclusion, of withdrawal from secularism, from Zionism etc. Thus in most cases those youths who enlisted left the community, abandoned their roots and searched for a place where they could be comfortable with integrating army service in their lives.
The attempts to find a Torah basis for adopting one specific way of life are ludicrous. Just as the Talmud concludes that most people can't be like Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai but a minority can, so most people cannot study day and night (and should go out to work, do some form of military service and maintain their various ideals) but some can and should study like that, and there is strong basis for exempting them from army service- just as the Leviim did not serve even in the wars conquering Canaan and David stayed in the Beis Midrash while Yoav was in the army.
I adopted this approach with my own children. If they showed aptitude for study, I would encourage them to continue as long as they wished, but if they wanted to serve in the IDF and combine it with their learning, I gave them my full backing. Most of them chose to serve (some in combat units), some chose to stay in yeshiva and each of them found meaning in the path they had chosen. I think they respect one another despite the very different life choices they have made, and the least I would expect would be that those studying devote their learning (and even mention by name) the ones who are putting their lives on the line to defend their brethren.
According to comments here and also according to the behavior of the ultra-Orthodox for a long time, it must be stated: the large part are convinced that they are the true "Israel" and anyone who is not ultra-Orthodox has withdrawn from Judaism. Therefore, they do not feel any strong enough emotional connection to cause them to act, towards the poor who are not from the community theirs, towards abductees not theirs and rapes not theirs. Emotionally, they have no reason to waste time and certainly not their lives on people who are not theirs. Therefore, they treat all references to them on this matter - according to the Halacha, the morals, the emotion, as the harassment of "Gentiles" There is absolutely no need to reply to them. Their idlers, make "fun" of laughing, insulting, humiliating and getting smart with these "heathens". So in this blog and other similar blogs.
Practically speaking: many ultra-Orthodox Minyanim do not count 10, "Zionist Jews"; The food of the Zionists is not kosher and so are the Rabbis, DAYANIM, Shochatim and SOFRIM. The books of their rabbis do not enter the homes and yeshiva of ultra-Orthodox. Haredim do not live among the Zionists, do not study with them and do not marry with them. Haredim don't give them work and, if possible, don't buy from them.
The fact that from the biological point of view, there is still much in common in DNA, does not make two distinct groups 100% one people. Rather, differentiation is a centrophagic force, a process that intensifies and strengthens; Distances these groups from each other, emotionally and socially.
Thank you for calling me a liar. Indeed, this is the level of your dialogue הפוסל, במומו פוסל (שו"ע א"ה ב).
"Zichron Moshe" ,Itzkowitz and Gur-nadlan Benei Barak. My own and my son's experiments. It has nothing to do with belief or Shemirat Shabat. It's the Kipah
Do you know the Zionists Hashgaha and Haredi personally? Or are you convinced that Zionist Hashgaha is always "weak" and your sectoral Haredi Badats are always 100%? How did you know that your Badats is Kosher?
You can't go around attacking me and my community with lies, and then whine victim.
It doesn't work like that.
I saw Sharansky daven at the amud in Zichron Moshe, with a full minyan. It is possible you acted your usual obnoxious self and thought you were ostracized for being a Zionist, I can't know.
The Rabbanut Hashgachos are underfunded, and no serious person can trust them. Not because of beliefs, but because of their structure.
This is not my style (more like a BANana vibe), but sometimes perspective helps. I write this with mad respect for the awesome writer of this letter who is clearly hurt, and is probably a truly righteous and caring woman. No hate intended, but here is a Haredi take of this political battle:
An Open Letter to our Hiloni Brethren:
We know that some of you have shared in our grief and bereavement over the Shechinah for many years and especially in the difficult days since the founding of the state of Israel. In the last seventy years, we have seen the help and solidarity efforts of many Hilonim in a variety of ways to help our mission of restoring the glory of God and abiding by His laws. We know that many have joined our cause, have done Teshuvah, and have made God a real presence in their lives.
We are also aware that you, like the whole of Hiloni society, attach great importance to secular values and misplaced spirituality (such as the importance of this land), and see in it a supreme value and even assistance in the continuity the people of Israel. But none of these can replace the study of Torah and adherence to its laws. This is the moral and civil duty of any Jew. The absence of that standard constitutes a distinction between caring about what God cares about and not caring. This reality is no longer bearable.
For those who think that they are not suited for a life of Torah, we say: Many of us are not suited to this life. None of us are suited to give up our every whim for a Higher Power. None of us are suited to sitting over these old , boring books in place of the lives every human inclination desires. We all do this because it is impossible to live without Torah, and we are all responsible for maintaining God’s presence: it cannot be that their lives are completely devoid of Torah, when I and my children bear the entire responsibility. My blood is not redder than theirs.
We don't even need you all to become Haredi. We just want you to pitch in and share the burden, or at least not complain about our shortcomings so much. They exist, no doubt, but they should be criticized only in context of appreciating our values.
We have given up hope in the leaders of the Hiloni society, the heads of governement, heads of universities, politicians and bloggers.
Call on *yourselves* to enlist in Yeshiva. To at least begin a Seder of Torah study. To keep the Mitzvot with more devotion. To start to care about the importance of the Mitzvot
We pledge to support you. We would be happy to meet to talk, and think together about how we will act towards this step.
It is thanks to Torah adherence that Israel was redeemed. May it be that thanks to you and thanks to the sons who will do Teshuvah, that He who makes will make peace in the highest places will make peace for us and for all of Israel.
Yo 😎
This "parody" is inane. Dati Jews are already engaged in Torah and mitzvot, whereas Chiloni Jews don't care. The original letter, on the other hand, is talking about something that even Charedim agree to be crucial, but simply want to leave to others to do instead.
Rabbi Slifkin, don't listen to these trolls. Dr. Elitzur's poignant and touching letter resonates with all Jewish women of all creeds. It doesn't matter how religious you are, you have the same responsibility. You can't just abandon that responsibility. The blood of these chareidim is not redder than ours and the situation cannot remain as is! 😡😡😡
You must be a troll or something. There is no way that chareidim would listen to a self-described "Maharat".
Sexist loser. You probably can't look a woman in the eye in real life. You guys have a real problem with strong, assertive women, so you oppress your women and turn them into doormats.
Whoa, Maharat! You must've had some really bad experiences with some terrible people. I'd absolutely love to hear your story!
Either here, or you can email me at davidschulmannn@gmail.com
No pressure but I'm open to listening to you venting your frustrations at my community (which I agree allows for misogyny and sexism), if you want a listening ear, and I promise, I love everyone and don't judge, ask anyone who's gotten to know me here in these last few months.
No pressure if course and if you don't want to talk to me because I'm a religious chareidi man, I totally understand.
I acctually really think he/she is really a troll.
Ok now you are resorting to ad hominems and insults. You know you are helping the chareidi side if this is who represents them
My dude, the point was that the Charedi side is to up the Torah. "Chiloni Jews don't care" - well, says the Charedi, they should!
Oh yes, whataboutism at its best. First remove the beam from your eye, I say! Justice for all. And there can be no justice without equality.
On the nose, once again! I was literally doing whataboutism. It has it's place, and I used it quite well, if I may say so myself.
Yo 😎
Actually, if you think that it is remotely appropriate to compare chilonim not learning Torah to charedim not serving in the army while hundreds of young men are dying from every other community, then there is something seriously wrong with you.
This is the big problem Slifkin. You are saying that ANY Torah is not as important as fighting in the army. You are saying chilonim who are mechallel Shabbos are better as long as they serve in the army. This is a completely secular, Reform Judaism attitude, and one that you are trying to push on chareidim at the same time that you try to convince them of army service. You are basically announcing that you want to shmad them. And of course they pick up on it right away.
I can't imagine a worse approach to getting them to serve. But it's obvious you are not really interested in their army service in the first place, but in completely changing their ideology to your version of Reform Judaism.
If you don't believe Torah protects, and that Aveirot cause harm in Israel, true!
You are just strengthening his point though , if it is equality you fight for and Torah you value , you should demand equality there also.
Kiruv organizations in Israel are doing their part in that arena already. Now it is time for Charedim to do a cheshbon hanefesh and see what they can learn from the hesder yeshiva students.
This comparison is not valid .
According to this just open "chareidi army kiruv organisations" and leave the chareidim themselves alone.
I will just argue the secular should do some deep thinking and consider why it is they fight for a Jewish state.And what they can learn from frum Jews
You keep flip flopping the chareidi position.
a)They dont care about anyone else and are short sited .
b)They Beleive Torah protects.Therefore no need for army.
c)Now they care they are just cowards.
Make up your mind.
They care about HAVING army protection, not PROVIDING it.
Ok , then that is no different to chilonim not caring , in both cases you are trying to convince someone to do something they dont feel they should.
Hilonim don't believe that Torah is needed. Haredim DO believe that army is needed.
I understood what you said , the reasons WHY they don't participate is irrelevant . If anything not seeing a value in it at all, is potentially even worse.
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/news/local/article/15075596
Today's Yisrael Hayom
The residents of Modiin Ilit feared a security issue and went straight to the ....army for help. They didn't run to the batei midrash to learn more Torah
Because Torah protects from army service not from the real bad guys.
"Hilonim don't believe that Torah is needed" - therein lies the problem!
Only because the Zionist state - an entity they never wanted nor asked for - made it necessary.
Yo, yo - that was amazing!
Such ahavas Yisroel! Beautiful!
I strongly disagree. He (of course it's *always* a "he") completely missed Dr. Elitzur's point. Now is not the time to be talking about Ahavat Yisrael, when hareidim are abdicating their basic responsibility. What do secluded, separatist, MISOGYNIST hareidim know about Ahavat Yisrael anyways?
In your view, Maharit, what does the Torah think about women's roles?
To be crystal with you, we do need to be more empathetic and appreciate their concerns and value their efforts waaay more. These women have children whose lives are at real risk, and something needs to change on the Haredi side - more devotion in the Beit Midrash, or a bit of spreading the burden, but we cannot one side this battle.
Telling your yeshiva students and seminary girls not to act in public like spoiled selfish infantile beasts at places like the Pitmaster restaurant, especially while a war is going on and body bags are being sent back at a rate of half a dozen a day, might go a little way to indicating just a bit of true empathy.
I checked out this Pitmaster place, and it doesn't look like the kind of place yeshiva bochurim and sem girls should be going to anyway. I'm very surprised that they do.
It's a great place to put tefillin on people!
You can't be serious. You must be a troll.
Pitmaster looks like a treif restaurant. Yeshiva students and seminary girls? You're bluffing.
Tell me Mr. Sheygitz, did you put on tefillin today?
Completely unrelated comment.
But now that you mention it, you can go shut down all the clubs in Tel Aviv while you are at it.
What clubs? You know something about clubs? Have you been to any?
Good, it seems you got my point.
Don't get your reference, but hell yea! That is really insensitive! Let's ditch that nonsense!
Of course! V'ahavta l'reacha kmocha.
It happens everyday and everywhere. Tremendous chilul Hashem.
That's messed up! The Haredim acting this way gotta up the sensitivity, like big time!
We must avoid a chilul Hashem and sinas chinam.
You're worried about Chilul Hashem now? It's a bigger Chilul Hashem when someone writes on a blog about one of the Gedolei Hador that he had "verbal diarrhea".
Mi k'amcha Yisrael. I can smell moshiach around the corner!
Oh, that's for sure!
So positive!
I hope I am not being obtuse, but I do understand this response. The point of the Elitzur letter is that all Israeli men should serve in the IDF. On its face, this seems to be a reasonable and moral position.
Your post suggests “a Haredi take of this political battle”, but does not seem to address the point at all. Rather, it appears to be an exhortation to “our Hiloni Brethren” to see the value of Torah learning and observance. I have no argument with that. But how does it address Elitzur’s point that all men should serve? It does not appear that serving in the IDF and Torah observance are mutually inconsistent.
Wasn't trying to respond to her points. I was just saying that we should be just as mad at the Chilonim. Why all this focus on the Charedim? Feels like there's something deeper here at play...
More whataboutism. You failed to respond to Dr. Elitzur's powerful points. You are a disgusting Orthodox misogynist.
You don't know me at all. I'm happy to have a discussion, and to be clear, I think more Charedim should be serving in the army.
I didn't "fail" to respond to her points, as I said earlier, I wasn't trying to. I was literally doing "whataboutism," as you so keenly picked up on.
Please, if you have specific arguments you wish to discuss, name them and I'll cordially respond.
Peace.
Don't listen to her/him. She's probably a troll.
The woman who wrote the letter is not secular. Did you read it? Plenty of young men who can learn Torah as well as Charedim and are shomer mitzvot have been killed in this war. How dare you pretend to not understand who is writing this letter.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, my friend. I have no problem with secular. God has no problem with secular - He made them secular.
All I'm pointing out is the Haredi perspective, showing how I understand the other side.
the point he is making is that frum torah jews serve and die in the army. a signficant majority of soldier deaths are religious. would you still have written your comment above if the letter was written by only torah religious mothers? What does being chiloni have to do with anything. your comment seems out of place.
Yo, God didn’t make them secular. What do you think? Millions of charedi women in Lithuania, Hungary, Poland, Russia and elsewhere all drank at magically poisoned water wells and, poof! out came millions of secular Jewish babies?
Most of them were born into secular families and communities and think these technologically ignorant black hatters are stuck in the past, living like it's the 5th century.
Yo, where do you think the secular families and communities came from?
Why does that matter? Wherever it comes from, they are not at fault.
"misplaced spirituality (such as the importance of this land)"
This is where chardim really fail. The land is as important as the Am, Torah, Shabbos, etc.
It would be as absurd as saying "misplaced spirituality such as the importance of shabbos" or "misplaced spirituality such as the importance of torah learning"
focusing on just torah and mitzvos and ignoring the importance of the land is like a half baked cake. charedim are half-baked
Now become an idf soldier and go and sacrifice yourselves for the am and for the land and understand what it truly means to be a yid living in eretz yisrael.
The land is as important as Torah? If you had to choose, you'd consider picking the land first?
If you had to choose between Torah and Shabbos which one would you consider picking first? Or between bein adam l'chaveiro and bein adam lmakom?
Torah and Eretz Yisrael are inseparable and it pains me that many charedim dont grasp this.
Yeah, this is totally messed up. If the choice was keeping the Torah in chu"l or being chiloni in EY, you are saying the latter. And this is how you want to convince chareidim? How deluded can you possibly be?
no one is suggesting this. please reread my comment instead of twisted my words. as an aside you obviously cant grasp the significance of eretz yisrael and how its an integral part of yiddishkeit.
Can you please clarify , Shabbos ,EY are part of Torah , they are not equal but seperate entities.
It's not that they don't grasp this. They disagree with this.
They disagree with chazal?
eretz yisrael is every part of yidishkeit as is wearing tefilin, tzitzis etc
like i said before you cant separate shabbos from torah you cant separate eretz yisrael from torah. and if you seriously ask me for sources to back this up then you need to go to back to yeshiva or maybe your hashkafa is tainted. (fyi I'm not referring to zionism or zionistic ideologies.)
That's a machlokes I thought. Your right you can't separate Eretz Yisreal from the Torah but you can't say that makes chilonim holier, that's ridiculous. Plus we are talking about chareidim who live in Eretz Yisrael.
We love Eretz Yisroel, no doubt. And Rashi says that the keeping of the Mitzvot out of EY is only Minhag. True all that. But at the end of the day, living in EY during Galut is not the tippy top priority, bro. It is a Mitzvah Kiyumit, Not Chiyuvit. If it cameto a point that we onl could learn Torah properly out side of EY, Charedim would prioritize Torah.
@ yo shemesh,
Well, it’s not shocking to see such corrosive whataboutism in defense of the Shechina. While Chiloni, Hesder and Druze mothers’ lives are forever shattered by the death of their children in defense of their homeland, callous chareidim wail over their impotent Shechina. Whatsamatter? The Shechina can’t take care of itself? It must rely on you to protect its holy mercurial and transformable temperment? So go ahead and wring your hands. The Torah will protect you — as long as you can employ it as a stratagem to justify your ultra-chareidi cowardice.
U's W, my dear friend, you are showing vibes of some serious frustration from our last chat. I meant no ill; I was just pointing out a criticism. But I can't control how you feel about me and if you wanna be mad, that's cool.
To your point, "callous chareidim wail over their impotent Shechina" - the callous part is fair, and we all should seriously work on our empathy game. But once again, you are showing nothing but your ignorance about the Shechinah. If you're down to a deep convo about the whole God thing, we can go there, but to the matter at hand, if there *is* a God, He wants us to give a hoot about His place on this world, because He loves us. He created a world in which He "needs" us to make His presence known, and when we care about Him beyond ourselves we are partnering with Him to make the world a better place.
This probably seems way out to you, being that you're not even sold on that He exists, but if you are calling us names and hating us, you should first fact check your premises, 'cause if the truth's on our side, you have the whole script flipped.
Wow, Mr. Yo. A1! You're a natural Chabadsker. The Rebbe would have been proud of you!
This is absolute utter rubbish. It’s basically pagan idol worship and a complete twisting of normative Judaism.
It's not idol worship, what does it have to do with idol worship? Your not making sense.
Exactly 💯! Hareidim are idol worshippers with their Gadolim and Rebbes. How dare they lecture us about religion! It gets me so incensed every time they speak to me in that patronizing tone, like "woman, get back in the kitchen", while I have rabbinical ordination and know ten times the Torah they do.
Hey whoever you are Iknow you are probably trolling but if your serious, no chareidim will take your claim of knowing so much Torah seriously
BRS, what's your name a reference to?
Dude, please explain!
Yo, here's some advice - don't take bitter trolls seriously.
Yah, I'll probably get hurt if I take it too hard. But I do love hearing another perspective! I wonder what someone could think is pagan about that comment?
Well, let's see what he says. But I wouldn't hold my breath for pearls of wisdom coming from someone with the name "Sheygitz".
Yea, what is that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheigetz
Is this guy not even Jewish?
Full disclosure, I didn't expect to amp up those likes! If there were a "dislike" button, I'd expect an equal amount of those.
As long as he doesn’t force me to eat the fried locust every day I’ll be more than happy to sit at his table.
Another bracha! To bring Moshiach!
And Yeshu hanoitzri.
He was the first Rabbi whose followers claimed he was the messiah. That turned out well for the Jewish people, no?
The difference is that he wasn't really the messiah! But the Rebbe is!
Your lost your argument on the first line. You addressed your letter to "Chiloni Bretheren" But you are reesponding to letter from Religious Zionist parents. Many of their kids in combat are just as big masmidim and lamdanim as anyone learning in charedi yeshivos. Your letter is incoherent if addressed to Religoious Zionist. You have no coherent response to us and our rabbanonim.
I was responding that a similar letter deserves to be sent to Chilonim and we should be equally frustrated about them.
"You have no coherent response to us and our rabbanonim."
Sure we do. You just don't like it, so you call it "no coherent response". First address the major problems in your own communities before complaining about other communities.
you have not presented a coherent response. instead we get a letter addressed to hilonim which ignores our existence. As for complaining about chareidim- In America you might be right- live and let live. But here in Israel - the fact that your refuse to serve in the army give your boys even the most basic secular education and have very low particpation rate in the workforce, and use you very significan to politcal power to make sure no of this changes and to demand that the goverment support this- directly impacts every Israeli- you are asking me to pay for this in taxes (the charedi community as whole recieves far far more tax money than it pays in) and in our kids spending more time in the Army. You are asking our kids to risk their lives for you. So yes you owe us explanations. we owe you none- we are not demand that you support and defend us.
Wow. A whole laundry list of complaints. So this was never really about the army in the first place, but just "I don't like those icky stinky primitive hareidim". And of course, not the least attempt to understand their position, which leads to laughable blunders like thinking some feminist Talmud professor who teaches a women's semicha program will convince them.
If you are who I think you are, I am actually shocked that you never saw the chareidi arguments for exemptions for Torah students.
We are not asking your kids to risk their lives. We would rather they learn in yeshiva and receive an exemption too. Too bad you don't want to give them that opportunity. Torah is the backbone and endurance of the Jewish nation, and it's a shame you can't acknowledge that.
if all of our kids who learn in Yeshiva never left ot go to the army- we would not have a functional army and we would all be dead. Of course I am aware of the charedi arguments- but Charedim never respond to the challenges possed to these arguments by talmidei chachamim who do not buy into your worldview (and as we have seen this includes among others R. Gustman zt"l) you act as if our rabbis and our communities dont exist. Of course I agree that Torah is the backbone of the endurence of the Jewish nation. We are only debating how to apply Torah not that God has restored us to independance in eretz yisrael and the place of Talmud Torah in that scheme. But again you cannot acknowledge this.
If this, if that, if the other thing. There are currently unfortunately far too many kids who do not want to learn at all, and who want to serve. The ones who are interested in learning (and I give credit to those communities which actually produce kids who are interested in learning) should be encouraged to stay in learning. It's a crying shame that you take that opportunity away from them.
We do not need to respond to challenges posed by a different worldview. How about you respond to the challenges to your ideology posed by the chareidi worldview? Or better yet, the Satmar/Neturei Karta worldview? Does that sound fair?
If you agree Torah is the backbone of the Jewish nation, you should appreciate chareidim's limud Torah and how it protects the entire Jewish nation, even if you disagree with their exemption.
"Many of their kids in combat are just as big masmidim and lamdanim as anyone learning in charedi yeshivos"
Replace 'many' with 'some'.
you dont get it. Many chilonim are already on a higher spiritual plane than many charedim. certainly entitled to more olam haba
Chilonim on a higher spiritual plane? Dude get real.
Please explain?
By virtue of their being chilonim, they are automatically on a higher spiritual plane.
The less mitzvos a person keeps, the higher his spiritual level.
I thought that was self-understood.
There are many chilonim who are moser nefesh to klal yisroel and devote themselves to yishuv haaretz- there are many chareidim who dont have much to to their credit, others who are mamash rishoim. I hvae no doubt in my mind that Herzl and Ben Gurion- who get the schar for all mitzos preformed by Jews in Eretz Yisrael- as none of would be here with out them- recieve great reward in Olam haba.
"I hvae no doubt in my mind that Herzl and Ben Gurion"
Well Ben Gurion definitely gets schar for agreeing to exempt the lomdei torah from serving....
Dude, I totally agree with your first sentence.
Ok, it works the other way around also , noone is saying every Charedi is a tzadik gammur and every chiloni is a a rasha ad maod. I don't see any relevance to this point here.
The Charedim are very happy to admit their system isn't perfect.
The Charedim are very happy to admit their system isn't perfect. - Really? Let's see more Chareidi leaders make that point
Alot of them do all the time. Do admit your system isn't perfect? Generally first fix your own flaws.
The person making the claims in the response letter above (the claims of how Torah works in the world) is making claims of the non falsifiable kind. It’s how all religions operate. Make a claim that cannot be verified. Cannot be proven or disproven. One that we cannot make heads or tails of. It's the realm of the charlatan, too.
Those kinds of claims constitute errors in logic. In this sense, they are not an argument. They are often used to manipulate those who are not wise to their logical weakness. They are persuasive sounding - but have no place, logically, in persuading people.
Those who protect life with their lives in the army make the falsifiable claim. If they don’t kill and die for the people, the people will be killed. The rave party goers who were slaughtered needed soldiers to kill and die to protect them. Hours after many were killed, such soldiers showed up and did just that. The threat was neutralized this way. Quod erat demonstatum.
The haredi want to use false, error filled, thinking to make their case, and rely wholly on that which cannot be proven or disproven. Charlatans use this kind of trick thinking as well. It works on some. Particularly young people.
The haredi should make claims that are logically valid. Or at least stop using this chicanery to trick people with bad logic.
It’s not a good look. It’s not a valid form of real persuasion. It is designed to trick those who don’t know better about logic.
Do you beleive in schar veonesh and olam haba?
it's not a question of belief. these are logical fallacies. it is called the unfalsifiable statement fallacy. It cannot be proven right (or wrong.) It is not a serious argument. it is dismissed based on faulty logic.
The argument about whether soldiers with guns killing and dying actually saves lives can be evaluated. It is a falsifiable statement. It shows itself to be true in a case like Oct 7 (which is why all societies have police, and armed forces. To respond, and neutralize attacks.)
The argument about the value of the IDF is logical. It can't dismissed for its lack of logic.
There is a religious saying (in other religions.) "Faith can move mountains." If someone says they have faith, but can't move mountains, the answer from the religious leader is "you just don't have enough faith." This is a slightly different version of a non-falsifiable statement.
It's logically gobildigook. Usually used to guilt people, or scare people, or prey on people. It can make people feel inadequate - for their lack of faith, for their doubts about the assertion. This is an added plus if you are trying to control someone. Which is why charlatans use it. Cult leaders.
That hypothetical open letter was awash in it. As far as the logic of his arguments go, it must be dismissed.
The falsifiable assertion that the IDF risks lives and saves lives can be fairly easily evaluated, and found to hold water as an assertion.
But the guy making the religious claims knows there is no way to test its validity (which is why it is fun to use on those who don't pick up on the persuasive sounding but facile argument. It works well on young people, sometimes.) It's the provenance of charlatans.
Another reason religious authority figures use it, is due to another fallacy, the false authority fallacy. Some people naturally believe things a religious authority claims are true, even when there is no way make heads or tails of its truth content.
This stuff both has a way of sounding true, but are actually logically weak, and also are the kind of arguments made by authority figures, who know that some people believe what authority figures say.
It's a thinking error, and should be avoided when seeking to make a solid, logical, grounded, and honest, and genuinely persuasive argument.
So you dont beleive in anything that cant be logically proven?
schar veonesh for example?Or Olam haba?
i'm not a believer in using belief in arguments. Religious beliefs do tend to be of the non-falsifiable kind. They're not an argument. They're an article of faith. They're not proofs - they're a different category.
The reason religious people and cults use them is because (while not actually persuasive) they can sound persuasive, especially coming from an authority figure, or a "learned" person.
It's a kind of abuse of logic, a form of flim flam. People who use logical fallacies are trying to sneak one past you, not persuade you. It's pretty disrespectful, but it's very common in religions, and cults, and cons. Politics too, actually.
Falsifiable is kinda a scam. Like when you think something is true you call it falsifiably but when it gets falsified you find an excuse. Like evolution.
But this is a religious argument , if you put religion aside , of course they cant prove it logically and of course going to the army makes sense .
If there was a clear passuk in the Torah exempting chareidim , it would be illogical but noone here would argue.
There are many things in Torah that cant be proved logically ( the 2 examples I gave above).The argument here is based on an undersanding of Torah , not some external logic.
No, he does not. He's an atheist.
atheist adjacent is how i describe myself.
Yo! You should write for IM!!! This was a great parody - Irrationalist Modoxism: A lighthearted parody/critique of Rationalist Judaism) - although probably too respectful for their taste:)
I just checked it out. Beautiful!
LOL bro, I actually tried to email them but I'm not sure I have the right contact info
At the point where you said "Hiloni" where the letter was obviously written by someone who isn't Hiloni, I knew I was in for an awful comment. But I didn't realize how callous and vile it would be.
We're screwed, as a people.
We're the best people alive today Y'know why? Cuz we have a Torah.
Yeah, but he has a point that your not responding to the person who sent the letter.
Agreed. I already responded to that above to Maharat or whatever.
If you truly feel that way, then pack up and leave. Do your holy study contribution from some other country.
This may qualify as a cogent response, if it the recipient were not secular Jews.
" We just want you to pitch in and share the burden"
Wrong message. A better reply, would be "we too are chipping in; we too share in the burden, even if such a burden doesn't involve the same risks and sacrifice."
To demand from someone who's sending their child to the front lines, that they should do more is tone deaf.
saying we too are sharing the burden is also tone deaf. ארץ ישראל נקנית ביסורין. they want Eretz yisrael with other people suffering the yissurin
I think that's a mean thing to say. I think the sacrifice and ordeals of soldiers and their families is too frequently not on their radar. To be sure, there are plenty of Charedim who do respect the soldiers- R' Aryen Levin's calling them מלאכים, and R' Osher Weiss referring to supporting soldiers as קודש קדשים. But those voices and attitudes must be the mainstream.
We have seen very little of that here in the comments.
I would prefer that you not suffer any yissurim on my behalf.
Yo, you're bringing the geula!
This is a complete joke. You really thought that some female rabbi who has a women's Talmud institute and advocates for "religious pluralism" is going to convince chareidi women to abandon the daas Torah that is their mother's milk???!
How. Delusional. Can. You. Be.
Completely untethered from reality.
In terms of the question itself, it was already explained there are two type of people who call themselves "National Religious". There are those who have similar beliefs in the Torah as chareidim, and there are those who are primarily secularists with a bit of Jewish flavor. It is the latter who promote hatred for the chareidim, while the former may disagree with chareidim, but appreciate them.
See here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2
Right, it's delusional to think that anyone in the charedi community will listen to a plain truth that the situation is utterly unfair and intolerable. After all, if they wouldn't listen to it from Moshe Rabbeinu, they certainly won't listen to it from someone that they consider not even properly frum! Heck, her kids are expendable.
Yes, yes, the Torah is all about slogans! Just listen to Erez Eshel and some female rabbi! Why not add Rabbi Sally to the bandwagon? This will certainly convince all those chareidim women!
Disgusting and misogynistic. You guys can't hold a CANDLE to Rabbi Sally Preisand! She could learn circles around all your Gadolim and Rebbes. Guess what guys, it's not 5th cent ad anymore. Women can best you in anything, including rabbinics! Time you got the message!
I'm sorry, you are exactly what I was talking about with Elitzur (although she is probably not as bad). Some feminist female rabbi promoting Reform Judaism. And this is what you are using to convince chareidim to serve?! Are you out of your mind?
Stop responding, she/he is for sure a troll.
No doubt
How about arm wrestling
You did not answer the question (the message/plea of the letter is the ikkar not the messenger) - what do you mean about slogans?
You really aren't going to convince anyone by continuing to make comparisons between the IDF and Moshe Rabeinu. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21529672
Moshe's first recorded act was "joining the army" to defend his wayward brother.
(אין משיבין על הדרוש)
So you agree this letter is pointless , and will only cause further animosity.
I suggest you take it down then.
No, I think it could accomplish things, as I explained in the post.
R' Nosson, no, it only accomplishes sinas chinam. Stop. In the name of Moshiach.
The normal phrase is "in the name of God." Do you believe that Moshiach is even more powerful?
He's obviously trolling, how do you not see that???
No, I meant to stop for the sake of bringing Moshiach. As in, "Stop in the name of peace".
Aren't you ashamed of mocking the memory of a righteous man and great Jewish leader like R. Schneerson, זצ''ל?
Putting his image and saying stupid things like the last clause of your sentence? Are you an ignorant non Jew or do you have some psychological issues that explain this foolish behaviour?
Agreed, it's disrespectful trolling.
The letter and the tears of widows, mothers who lost sons, and children without fathers should open the hearts of people who have hardened their hearts. Drip drip drip it will sink in.
Reading some of the comments here, apparently not.
Yes for most but it makes them uncomfortable. And discomfort can be a catalyst to change. They know they are wrong. Huge defense mechanisms to distract and project.
It does make us uncomfortable. Who wouldn't be uncomfortable when their brothers are dying. But thankfully, we are able to distinguish between emotions and facts. And the fact is that most of you guys don't appreciate the importance of Torah. Many of you, like Slifkin, openly display contempt for Torah. So we are the ones protecting Klal Yisrael.
It has nothing to do with a lack of empathy, which is exactly why people get so frustrated with you.
You use this to build a picture of chareidim as unempathetic selfish beings with no regard to anything that is happening around them.
Right, the commentators here are really showing empathy.
No, the commenters are doing a great job of that.
Well, according to BANana, Chareidim will unfortunately ignore tears of widows and mothers who lost sons because they're not dressed completely tznius. Oh well
This letter was not written by a widow (which would at least be understandable). It was written by a feminist Academic Talmud professor who teaches a mixed female semikha program, telling chareidi women to stop listening to all those rabbis. This not even making the slightest effort to understand the intended audience. It's a joke, and shows how fundamentally unserious the chareidi haters are.
She is not a charedi hater. there is no hatred in the letter. (she is also not an academic Talmud scholar but a talmidat chachamim who wote a doctorate on the Rosh under Harav Professor Yaakov Blidstein tz"l- a talmid muvhak of the Rav and tremendous yerei shamayim) It is also true that she is not a widow. But she lives in constant fear of becoming a widow, he daughter becoming a widow of of losing one of her sons. That should be enough to make her letter understandable. You have no concept to the sacrifices and suffering of that RZ (and other Israeli) mothers and wives make so that we can live in this Land, while charedi women sleep soundly with their husband and sons never leaving kollel- even if they are not learning. It is you who have not and cannot make the slightest effort to understand the author and the many other women who signed the letter. If you did you might come to question the "gedolim". So you choose a hardened heart lest your "emunah" be shaken.
Listen man I agree with you but you need more sensitivity this womans in pain.
That's really terrible. The charedim must start serving more. But no sinas chinam please!
"Her kids are expendable" - Noone said that.
you really know nothing about the Relgious Zionsit community. you assume that anyone who criticizes the charedim are "primarily secularist." Criticism of the Charedi community especially for its refusal to sends it children to the army come from the RZ communities greatest Talmidei chachamim. Our criticism of the chrareid world comes precisely from our commitment to Torah study and observance.
Yeah, read the link I posted, if you are at all curious. I never said that RZ rabbis don't criticize chareidim, I said they don't express resentment and hatred. They understand the tremendous merit of Torah study and appreciate the chareidim's commitment, even if they disagree with them. This female rabbi is certainly not representative of the Torahdike Chardal community. If I am getting the right Moshe Shoshan, you yourself are a secularist, like Slifkin, and so of course you will try to attribute your opinions to the entire RZ world.
If you call RSRH, Rav Dov Zvi Hoffman, RYBS and the Seridei esh, not to mention the Rambam, secularlists, then yeah- I am a secularist, I acknowelge the value of engagement in the world outside the deled amot of the Beis medrash. in some cases it is an absolute obligation.
But what you are seeing here is not hatred it is anger. You have no concept of the suffering that the RZ community is going through these days precisely because of their commitment to כל מלאכת עבודת הבורא. Eretz yisrael niknes beyissurin. But your community has declared itself exempt from these yissurin, because אפשר לעשות על ידי אחרים. You can only keep you kids learning Torah in Eretz Yisrael at the expense not only of the bittul torah of others, (and Zahal would fall apart if the RZ adopted the charedi position on the Army) but of the suffering and death of others. so yes many people in DL community are reaching the breaking point on this selfish, self-seving ideology. and yes this anger exists in the the chardal world which you idealize. But you have made it clear you care not a whit about the suffering of other Jews, done on you behalf. I think it is fair to be angry at people like you. and at the many Rabbinic leaders of your community who speak with the same distain for those who keep you alive.
"It is clear that you don't care a whit about Torah or Hashem"
This - THIS - is why so many people find you abhorrent. Just because Moshe Shoshan doesn't share your charedi ideology, it means that he doesn't care one whit about Torah or Hashem?! Simply vile.
In fact I've had enough of your vile insults to people here. Banned.
Flip this around , and thats exactly how every chareidi feels reading this blog. Whether intentional or not, its certainly the sentiment that comes across.
https://open.substack.com/pub/rationalistjudaism/p/the-letter-of-the-mothers?r=2zgqeu&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=46849905
There is a huge spectrum between "resentment" and "hatred."
Not really. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/why-do-people-hate-charedim
Delusional like believing in the reform ideology of "daas torah"?
Daas Torah isn't reform, it has alot of sources.
h. Homeless (brainless)
Dr. T.. Elitzur is not a Rabbi or claim to be one..Nor does she advocate pluralism.
Your ad hominem argument is a lie. Do Teshuva!
She's not a rabbi, nor does she make the claim to being one.
GUYS, STOP!!!!! Woah, I started going through the comments and didn't realize at first the level of vitriol going on here! STOP. STOP. STOP. ALL OF YOU. This is not how we are going to bring the geula! We need Ahavas Yisroel, as the Rebbe always taught us! Not this bickering! Moshiach is right around the corner, but this bickering is not going to help things at all. Y'all all have to stop, stop, stop. Immediately!
יחי אדוננו מורינו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד
I recommend not reading that blog or engaging with its comments.
I tried it and it was a dirtifying experience. If you feel that way as well, please extricate yourself from that morass before it is too late.
No! I cannot stop. We must bring Moshiach! Now!
I agree. It simply can not be dependent upon our assumption of the Rebbe's prior return.
The Rebbe will reveal himself to the world at the proper time. Moshiach now!
That's okay. I agree with you. In the meantime, whenever in doubt, I choose to err on the side of the rational.
If your shitah is already rational, or if when in doubt you prefer to err on the side of hislahavus, that's perfectly alright with me. I am not a "shitah inquisitor". Hashkafa is not the most important aspect of a yid.
Despite my approach of *presuming* rationality over the mesoirah of any particular cheilek of klal yisrael, I still believe in Moshiach Now.
See this video for what I mean. The Rebbe caused me to be born and I had the zchus of seeing him and experiencing him in this world.
I take the Rebbe very very seriously and in some of my videos you can even see his picture on the wall.
I consider what he might say to me if we were in yechidas. One can never know for sure but everyone knows d'veikus is good even after a tzaddik is nistaleik.
My point is that I am not one to ignore the Rebbe. I simply have a different understanding than the usual one about who the Rebbe was.
https://youtu.be/7siS5unTpQU?feature=shared
Nonetheless, my view is that the Rebbe not only *was* among the greatest leaders of a Malchus Shamayim here in the world, but that he is ASTONISHINGLY *still* the greatest "living" Rebbe of Kal Yisroel.
I thought that you had left your comment here
https://ydydy.substack.com/p/theodore-herzl-was-a-one-eyed-one/comments
and was responding to that.
And I assumed that my earlier reply was a private reply to you in your private "notes" (whatever that is).
Understanding now my error, let me say that I don't believe in saying דבר שלא נשמע which is why I would not have recommended that you leave this group *within* the group itself, which of course is full of people who feel otherwise.
But once I apparently did, and you responded that you can not, because you are trying to bring the geulah, let me encourage your response.
I do not understand this generation or how internet conversations work in general, but if you believe that your chizuk for ahavas yisrael can have success here than I bless you with love and success.
The people here, both Nosson and his commentors are children of Israel and properly worthy of grand expectations.
Yedidya (YDYDY)
We need Ahavas Yisroel because it's all we've got. Moshiach now!
Halevai we had Ahavas anything or anyone my dear brother. May you be a shaliach to arouse us all to Ahavas Reim, and more.
Moshiach Now
I googled this Dr. Tehila Elitzur. My advice to her is, if she wants to have even half a percentage point of probability that any Charedi women take her seriously, she should stop wearing such low-cut blouses. It's very hard to take religious arguments from a secularist seriously. Just ask Natan Slifkin! He's been banging his head against a brick wall for the last 15 years and has got absolutely nowhere!
They really are clueless. Totally clueless. I hope these are not the same people in charge of the hasbara department.
Do you have any connection to Hashkafic halfway house? Great photo, by the way - it actually made me laugh out loud!
I am he. Just changed my name.
I guess you're assuming that chareidi women are so shallow and childlike that they would summarily dismiss a serious issue just because the person making it happens to be dressed in an untznius fashion.That's sad.
Well, a woman who goes around showing her chest off is showing pretty clearly that she's coming from a completely different value system than Charedi women are. So yes, I don't think they would take such a person seriously. The same way the Nshot of Gush Etzion would not take a letter from Nshei Bnois Yoiel of Monroe about the issur tzioines seriously.
I would think not wanting your children to be killed would be a shared value
Oh yes, it would be. But she's going to have to convince them that serving in the army is more important than the value of learning Torah, which they may have strong reason to suspect that she does not put heavy stock in anyway.
But you have to be more sensitive to this womaan. Shes in pain.
I have known Dr. Elitzur for many years. I have never seen her dressed in a way that could be construed as untzanua. She may not conform to charedi standards of tziniut, but if you have any knwoledge of hilchot tziut you would know that it is highly dependant on communal standards. There is no halakhic prohibition on a women wearign a shirt that exposes a few inches below the collar bone. IF she is coming from a completely different value system it is because she knows vasly more torah than 99.9% of chardei women and than vast majoirty of charedi men. Dr. ELitzur has faith in charedi women that they are not as shallow and simple minded as the men.
Chareidim have stricter standers of tzenius. And it doesn't help to say she knows more Torah. Chareidim don't buy that claim. But she's in pain, even if she was chiloni that's importatnt.
" The same way the Nshot of Gush Etzion would not take a letter from Nshei Bnois Yoiel of Monroe about the issur tzioines seriously."
A little discretion is in order. If word gets out that one of these N'shei B'nois Yoiel is taken seriously, they may be thrown out of the community. It's not modest for a woman to be taken seriously.
Great. Now, instead of sitting with your gemara, you are using Google to check out "immodestt" photos of other mens' wives. It would be more efficient, at the very least, to go straight to a porn site, do whatever it is you need to do, and go back to that masechet (after proper netilat yadayim).
If only you knew how this reveals you for the filthy-minded, out of control bottom feeder you are, but no, you are self-reporting. Fech.
Uh, googled her name out of curiosity. It did not even occur to me that the Rabba would not be dressed modestly!
You are basically forcing all of us to do the same as you ;)
Is she related to Shulamit Elitzur? Because she actually contributed something to scholarship.
She is not. She is related to many other great scholars of Judaism, incluidn gher grandfather E.E. Urbach and her grandfather in law Yudah Elitzur. They also contribued "something"
Nowhere? How do you know? I know of many young chareidim who have a different viewpoint due to him. Many have the sense not to publicize it, of course.
If he was genuinely getting nowhere you and your merry men wouldn't bother wasting a substantial amount of time here with your feeble leitzonus.
I have nothing more to say.
Hey Watermelon, you ain't sposed 2 look at women, especially those aren't dressed properly.
His intended objective for Charedi bashing is to change Charedim, specifically Israeli Charedim. And he has gotten absolutely nowhere with it.
If he was out to change Israeli charedim he’d write this blog in Hebrew. It would seem to me that he is looking to ensure that Anglo charedim who move to Israel understand that by joining the Israeli charedi community they are entering a very different world than many of the moderate charedi communities in America, the UK and other locations.
He doesn't speak fluent Hebrew. He writes this blog in English because that's the only language that he's fluent in. He's trying to change Charedim, and the public perception of Charedim, in order to effect change in them. At least so he claims. And he has gotten nowhere. I don't think that he really has any noble goal other than the fact that he is extremely bitter and this is his venue to vent.
"....to change Charedim, specifically Israeli Charedim..."
But you are also not communicating with Israeli chareidim? They don't speak this language (I won't be naive enough to add they have no internet access). So what is your point and purpose?
Clearly you believe he is also marketing to English speaking chareidim. And in that respect, yes, he is triggering thought amongst young English speaking chareidim.
It seems you don't really know what your objective is.
You’re the one coming across as bitter. What bothers you? Feeling like you’ve wasted away your life by not becoming a gadol and not really having many prospects?
Bitter is in the eyes of the beholder.
I actually get a kick out of fighting with Natan and his guys. Definitely am not consumed with hate or lose sleep over it. Unlike other people, who have made knocking communities into a life's obsession.
yes. they make a choice to enter into an extremist community and abandon the values many of them were raised in. That is why the so called "moderate" anglo charedi community in Israel has much more to answer for than the tikokos shenishbau who grew up here.
I'm not sure where Natan plays a role in all this. I don't know whether or not the Yeshivos have been suffering more since 10/7. It's possible, but I don't think that Natan played a role in it. Shai Graucher may have. Hence R' Landau's opposition to him.
NS had literally nothing to do with anything. The Mir is hurting now bc real estate is still in the gutter. There have indeed been some reallocations of funds, but this is not due to anyone in particular, just the feeling that right now funds are more important in X than Y.
If that is happening it would be wonderful. This Rabbi Landau fellow should have paid heed to the sages before having a bout of verbal diarrhea in public and on camera:
״מכאן אמרו חכמים ״יפה שתיקה לחכמים קל וחומר לטפשים״ שנאמר (משלי יז) ״אויל מחריש חכם יחשב" ״ (מסכת פסחים פרק ט, דף צ"ט ע"א)
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
״אַבְטַלְיוֹן אוֹמֵר:
חֲכָמִים,
הִזָּהֲרוּ בְּדִבְרֵיכֶם;
שֶׁמָּא תָּחוֹבוּ חוֹבַת גָּלוּת,
וְתִגְלוּ לִמְקוֹם מַיִם הָרָעִים,
וְיִשְׁתּוּ הַתַּלְמִידִים הַבָּאִים אַחֲרֵיכֶם וְיָמוּתוּ,
וְנִמְצָא שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם מִתְחַלֵּל״ (משנה אבות א יא)
Dude, this is irrelevant.
Achdut is not about forcing everyone to agree with you, or to behave in a certain situation as you would, achdut is about respecting each other and working together DESPITE disagreements, both parties are working towards the same goal. They just have different ways of doing so.
You just see no value in one parties efforts.That is your issue, give them some respect and you may get some in return, then we can discuss the best way about going about things together.
"You can’t talk about hurting achdut where there is no achdut" - NO, you can always make things worse.
No, achdut is about sharing responsibilities. And EVERYONE, including charedim, agrees that we need an army.
Sharing responsibilities doesn't always mean everyone does everything.
Again, you just don't see learning as a responsibility. As long as that is true, you will never get anywhere in this fight of yours.
Sure, learning is a responsibility. But not full-time learning to the exclusion of other responsibilities.
You missed the first line of my comment.
He can still do teshuva! It is never too late for a Yid to do teshuva. R' Nosson, where do you live? I can arrange for someone to come put tefillin on you.
not sure if you are joking or not?
Was warming a typo?
Lol
dont know about him, but his gids and grand kids are going to some of the hottest places in the counrty for their miltary service b"h. Some may be with my son in Gaza, which is super "hot" these days.
When the country is at war then learning Torah all day is a luxury. Only the very elite of scholars should do that. The rest need to join up. Or do something else like replace people who are at the front. It’s beyond ridiculous.
Torah is not a luxury. Having a Secular Jewish state in the Land of Israel is a luxury. It is only on the merit of those that study and keep the Torah that it happens.
The Rebbe said that we need to have a state too. The Charedi soldiers can learn חת"ת in the tanks.
"Having a Secular Jewish state in the Land of Israel is a luxury. It is only on the merit of those that study and keep the Torah that it happens."
1) Please clarify whether bringing up " Secular Jewish state" is a non sequitur or actually relevant to your point. (You could have brought up other luxuries, like recliners, striped toothpaste or wingtip shoes.) You seem to imply that what you call a "Secular Jewish state" survives on the merit of Torah study. It's an odd claim, that probably sounds more odd in Ponevezh than it would in Mercaz HaRav. It also implies a possible corollary claim that a Halachic State would not need so much merit, and could do with less Torah study.
2) You should listen more closely. Think about the connotation of the word "luxury" as uttered by NSYA, and how you use it. You mean it as something which is not needed. NSYA means it as something too leisurely, too comfortable as opposed to bare bones basics and spartan. The implication is that siting in a climate controlled Yeshiva, sleeping on clean beds, daily showers, regular meals, snacks and coffee, fresh underwear and no risk of injury death, nor no trauma is a relative luxury. But you're not understanding "luxury" in that connotation. You're using the wrong connotation because you've missed the context. And such, your response is not to the point because you don't even acknowledge the point you're replying too.
1) It's not an odd claim, it's a basic Jewish claim. Torah protects the entire land.
2) Right, he was redefining the word "luxury" to fit his rhetorical point. I was redefining it further to show the right perspective.
Pick your top learners and prayer. Just like in tne IDF not everyone is in an elite unit. You guys get an elite unit of learners and daveners. Like 10%. The rest. Serve.
No. I have a better proposal. Pick 50% of the soldiers and send them to yeshiva. No need for such a big army.
Show me one source that achdus (or achdut for Sefardim) is about sharing responsibilities.
Show me one source that the commandment to love our fellow Jew does not apply to those who have different opinions to you.
Show me one source that publicly berating people who will never listen to you is acceptable under any rules.
I know you won't listen to me either. But the message is for the innocent reader here. They should see the truth behind these posts.
לא תעמוד על דם רעיך
כל ישראל ערבים זה לזה
דעלך סני, לחברך לא תעביד
האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה
As for your second point, nobody is talking about not loving charedim.
As to your third point, I explained why I think this can bring about change.
לא תעמוד על דם רעיך
This has nothing to do with sharing a burden. And nothing to do with achdus. Stick to the point, if you can.
כל ישראל ערבים זה לזה
Yes, that is a Halacha of arvus, that people are responsible for other people's mitzvos and aveiros. Again, nothing to do with achdus.
דעלך סני, לחברך לא תעביד
Yes, right. So you don't like letters publicized against you, don't do it to others. Nothing to do with achdus, serving in the army, or learning Torah.
האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה
Not relevant here. That is for the local Mitzvah of conquering Eretz Yisroel from the Canaanites. Not connected to this, unless you wish to make some kind of homiletic reference.
Basically, you have nothing. Diddly squat. But don't let that stop you. The less you have, the louder you yell.
If you can't see the idea of shared responsibility anywhere in these sources, AND if you represent the charedi perspective, then I can't think of a more powerful demonstration of how the charedi approach to Torah is utterly perverted.
You have a singular ability and talent to distract from the argument and drei a kop.
You still have not quoted one source that achdus is 'shared responsibility', and your sources prove your activities wrong.
מאי דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד
Did you enjoy letters that were publicized against you? Why are you doing to others that which you did not enjoy done to you?
"האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה
Not relevant here..."
Whether it's relevant here is a legitimate question. Rav Zevin certainly thought it relevant. But it should be relevant to everybody for at least some situations.
"That is for the local Mitzvah of conquering Eretz Yisroel from the Canaanites."
I must protest this attitude. It relegates narratives in the תורה to mere stories with no relevance but the historic context in which they occurred. Such an attitude means you can learn no lessons from "stories" in the תורה.
I also protest this attitude. I think it is important to draw parallels between Natan Slifkin and Korach, and if you don't do that, it relegates narratives in the תורה to mere stories with no relevance but the historic context in which they occurred. Such an attitude means you can learn no lessons from "stories" in the תורה.
R Mordechai Neugroschel pointed out that the pesukim explicitly say that Moshe Rabbeinu was talking to sheep herders. So there's that. https://youtu.be/vNpC7yUHrsM (10min mark.)
you are clearly an amhaaretz or a talmid chacham shein bo daas. to take one example, no less that Rav Gustman zt"l applied האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה to yeshiva bochrim going to the army.
So the authority of Rav Gustman and Rav Zevin is absolute, yet the Chazon Ish, the Tchebiner Rav, Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz, Rav Shach, and more, are all irrelevant.
Strange way of thinking.
תורה מגנא ומצלא
לא ימוש ספר התורה מפיך
כל המבטל מדברי תורה מאכילים אותו גחלי רתמים
See, we are even better at coming up with slogans than you!
Maybe. Or maybe not 🤔
״מכאן אמרו חכמים ״יפה שתיקה לחכמים קל וחומר לטפשים״ שנאמר (משלי יז) ״אויל מחריש חכם יחשב" ״ (מסכת פסחים פרק ט, דף צ"ט ע"א)
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
״אַבְטַלְיוֹן אוֹמֵר:
חֲכָמִים,
הִזָּהֲרוּ בְּדִבְרֵיכֶם;
שֶׁמָּא תָּחוֹבוּ חוֹבַת גָּלוּת,
וְתִגְלוּ לִמְקוֹם מַיִם הָרָעִים,
וְיִשְׁתּוּ הַתַּלְמִידִים הַבָּאִים אַחֲרֵיכֶם וְיָמוּתוּ,
וְנִמְצָא שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם מִתְחַלֵּל״ (משנה אבות א יא)
If there was a competition for who could copy and paste the same thing over and over again, you would win a metal!
ויעשו כולם אגודה אחת
שפיל לסיפיה דקרא
The end of his passuk says לעשות רצון הרבי שבשמים
Some forget the כולם.
Great letter.
Regarding the comments, some of the trolls are brilliant - and really entertaining (here's looking at you
בקרוב ממ"ש!) Some of the comments I'm not sure whether they are deliberately trolling, or really that oblivious to reality (which I assume is the ultimate objective of a troll)
Anyway, to save some of you guys the trouble coming up with irrelevant comments, there is now a bot that can do the trolling for you:
https://poe.com/trollerGPT77
I think a troll's ultimate objective is just to start fights. You can therefore never really argue or reason with him, because he'll just change the topic or something like that to keep the fight going.
It's best not to even engage with them directly.
Quiz - was this written by a person or a bot:
Ah, Natan Slifkin and his naive notions. Sending Charedi sons to the army, you say? How utterly preposterous! The Charedi community has a long-standing tradition of dedicating themselves to Torah study and religious observance. To suggest that they should abandon their sacred duties and join the army is nothing short of sacrilege.
The army is not a place for the Charedi community. Their focus should be on preserving their religious heritage and contributing to their communities through Torah learning and spiritual pursuits. The idea that they should be subjected to the secular environment and potentially compromise their values is simply unacceptable.
Furthermore, the army is a dangerous place, full of violence and uncertainty. It is not a suitable environment for individuals who have dedicated their lives to a path of peace and spirituality. It would only serve to expose them to unnecessary risks and challenges that are far removed from their way of life.
So, my dear interlocutor, let us not entertain such absurd thoughts. The Charedi community has a sacred duty to continue their traditions and contribute to society in their own unique way. The army is not the place for them, and we should respect and appreciate their commitment to their faith.
I'm convinced!
"Throughout the generations, women in Israel have known how to act with courage and sacrifice, where Gedolim and leaders failed."
Money quote right there
Yeah , would love an example.
Uhm, did you read the commentators on the parsha yesterday? The bit about the women who refused to stop having babies even when the Gedolim and leaders said to stop having babies. Or were you out at the Kiddush club all day?
How about the עגל, when the women refused to contribute their jewellery?
Wasn't soroh schnerirer originally told by gedolim to stop her efforts?
I don't know for sure what is fact and what is fable in that history. Maybr Marc Shapiro knows.
Chareidi mothers want their boys to marry Chareidi girls. Very few Chareidi girls will consider a bochur who has enlisted in the IDF. This initiative is doomed.
exactly. Charedim care about being charedi, not about following the Torah and doing the right thing. it just so happens that being charedi involves doing most mitzvos. but when push come to shove, shiduchim are more important than Torah. I have actually pointed this out once to a super chareidi women (from RBS B) she concured with me.
Pretty sure someone got banned for saying this to you.
"Charedim care about being charedi, not about following the Torah and doing the right thing"
R Slifkin?
They will consider him if he is wealthy or from a wealthy family.
This post is based on an outsider's misunderstanding of the sub-cultures in Eretz Yisroel.
For many years, Mizrachi/Mafdal voters/Religious Zionists were the equivalent of the MO in Chutz La'aretz. They didn't have a coherent ideology, they were people who wished to live in this world while staying religious. Any possible heter was utilized, and if a mistake was made, it wasn't a real problem. Halacha and Torah were just another value in a list of personal goals, with no overriding importance. They believed in Zionism, but the Torah part was an afterthought.
Only a tiny minority were seriously committed, and they were not the face of the community at all.
This group cannot accept a community with values that override the secular surroundings. 'Be religious, but be normal at the same time', with normal a euphemism for 'following the surroundings, whatever they do'.
In the 80s and 90s, things changed. Merkaz Harav underwent some serious turmoil then, and the great leaders of their community - Reb Zvi Yehuda and Reb Moshe Zvi, passed away. But a new generation was born, different to their predecessors. These were seriously committed Charedim, devoted to learning and keeping Torah in the best way possible. But because they were ideological followers of Rav Kook, they considered settling the land and defending it an equal Mitzvah to others. They brought that zeal to their Zionism too. When misguided, it ended up in serious violence and total lack of discipline. But those who are not pir'ei adam are earnest about their Yiddishkeit, and they try and learn as much as possible. Some are serious Talmidei Chachamim, their flagship Yeshiva is Har Hamor, as well as Merkaz Harav, in a limited fashion.
When Charedim talk about the RZ who are unperturbed about their lack of service, they mean this second group. They know what living with ideals means, and they understand when others do so too, even when they disagree with them. They know that they have more in common with Charedim than they have disagreements about, and they respect their positions.
"Any possible heter was utilized"
Exactly what chareidim do, when they have a particular desire to do (or not do) something.
Some classic examples;
Kiddush on a thimbleful of whiskey
Hetter Ista for non business personal loans
Mechiras chometz
Nursing Homes and other 24/7 businessess - relying on some flimsy bits of paper and sham arrangements (yeah, right the nursing home business is really sold to the non Jewish home manager every shabbos and pesach and bought back immediately afterwards - if the modox came up with that one, and chareidim didn't need the hetter, chareidim would be all over it). Numerous Amazon drop-shipping businessess operate throughout Yom Kippur - it's against Amazon rules to have any periods where the business is not operarable - chareidim are remarkabaly chilled about it (yes, I know its 'only' a d'rabbonon, other than chometz on pesach in those nursing homes)
Kullos in sirchos that are unknown to shulchan oruch and the key nosei keilim - some of those kullos arrived very late - this is a sofek do'erisoh of course.
"Kiddush on a thimbleful of whiskey"
This is not a universal practice. Some (many? most?) are מקפיד to make קידוש on a רביעית.
Did I say it was 'universal'?
This is not at all accurate history of RZ or of Mercaz Harav. You are correct though that there is a very small, extreme group of chardallnickim who are very close to charedim. Even most of those who identify with the Kav are not that extreme.
"These were seriously committed Charedim"
They were seriously committed (to Torah), but they weren't "Charedim", because they believed in the value of helping people outside their camp.
And they didn't drown puppies, or drink chiloni blood at the Pesach Seder.
My nephew stationed in the north can learn Torah as well as any of you Charedim after several years in yeshiva. But he serves. He leaves his wife and kids. All of my nieces husbands serve. They are not secular. Charedim who don’t serve are outrageous.
Good for them. A great mesiras nefesh. But full time Torah scholars are the spiritual backbone of the nation!
Pick the best and brightest.
We already did.
Hey, if you tell me where you live, I can arrange for someone to come put tefillin on you.
the RZ yeshivos are full of full time torah scholars. when they go to the army others take their place.
Great! That's amazing! The more Torah study, the better!
Please forward this letter.
There may be some people who aren't looking for people to blame, and now we will give them someone to blame without them looking for it.
Sadly, this letter will fall on deaf ears. The ultra-orthodox (charedi) will not budge or honor their moral obligations to Israeli society, or share any of the defence or economic burdens as long as they can freeload off the productive members of society.
Hey Cary! If you let me know which city you live in, I can arrange for someone to come put tefillin on you.
Gaza, Israel
"This is all the more true since October 7th, when hundreds of IDF soldiers have fallen and many others have been injured, including a large number from the national-religious community, but none from the charedi community. "
How many dead charedim would satisfy you?
Well if the charedim actually served in the army then there would likely be some. But see - the charedi world today are the descendants of those charedim who ensured that the orphans and the poor and the children of widows were the ones grabbed to fill the quota of the cantonists in the Czar’s army, and even engaged the khappers to grab them so that their own children would not be taken. So it’s actually quite a long sordid history around the “privilege” of being the ones to go to yeshiva.
No, the kidnappers were the forerunner of today's professors of Talmud. They have similar hashkafos.
have you ever met a professor of Talmud?
No. The Khappers were hired by the communal leaders and the rabbonim. And not necessarily the ״רב מטעם״
You can make up whatever story you want.
You weren't there, and you probably didn't read anything written by someone who was there. The canards of the secularists were written a generation later, for good reason. Nobody who was actually there assigned blame to the Rabbanim.
It’s difficult to argue with someone who’s knowledge of history is at best based on mostly ahistorical hagiography 🤷🏻♂️
It seems you know as much about the ch(kh)appers and their history as you know about my sources. Not only do you know nothing about my sources, you also have no way of finding out.
Yet, here you are, making absolute statements. Why not? Who needs knowledge for that? Knowledge is for Charedim! A sheygetz has better ways of spending his time.
Oh, really. Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
No problem. The Chofetz Chaim said that the Ukrainian pogroms in the 1920s during which over 100,000 Jews were slaughtered and hundreds thousands more raped, pillaged and injured, were God’s punishment for the Khappers and the communal abandonment of the cantonist children.
Why didn't the mothers of the cantonists write an open letter calling on the rich mothers to send their kids to the russian army? That would've done the trick.
You seem to be a very cruel and non empathetic person. Are you married? Do you have children?
Well, my grandfather was a chapper and my great uncle was a kapo. So....
But seriously, I don't think it's cruel to respond to Dr Slifkin's posting of this letter. Nor to comments like yours. Maybe don't go calling entire communities immoral and descendants of chappers if you want empathetic responses.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/idf-exemptions-the-crucial-distinction/comment/42498235
Fascinating - do you have a link to an article about the Chafetz Chaim's response to the pogroms? (Until I read this thread, I had never heard of the Khappers, but a quick search lead me to a Wikipedia page about them - isn't the internet amazing)
The Chofetz Chaim wrote a small pocket sefer for the children who were impressed into the army.
https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/49460
I have a good friend who served in the IDF and is a rabbi and תלמיד חכם. He has a copy of this Sefer which his grandfather kept with him when he served in the US Army during WWII. He took it with him when he served in the IDF 40 years later.
A lot of the cantonists kept their religion and after their release from the Czar’s army returned to the Jewish community - and even established their own Jewish communities outside the pale of settlement.
The modern charedi argument that serving in the IDF will spiritually weaken their youngsters and this is a reason to self-exempt is a complete fiction. It’s a sad reflection on the state of charedi educational output if that’s what their leadership believes. They have all of the tools and materials needed to maintain - and even improve - their childrens’ religiosity and spiritual levels while doing their duty to their people and serving in the armed forces.
Not all Charedim are chappers. Just a specific chassidus in New York, right off the bridge from Manhattan. But we won't go into details, in the spirit of ahavas yisroel.
Probably. I would have been khapped by the goons of a charedi rosh yeshiva and forced into 25 years of army service and a forced conversion to Christianity.
Oh, is that how you ended up where you are now? Now I get it.
The only appropriate reaction is - בדיל ויעבור
More nonsense, more stupidities, more proof to Chazal's dictum אין חכמה לנשים אלא בפלך
Right, they are really stupid for being upset that their sons risk their lives for others who aren't interested in reciprocating. Such nonsense!
There is no toichen to the letter, and no chance it will work.
Just noise.
מפטירין כדאתמול
But you have to more sypathetic
Zundel, you like dicta of chazal? Here are a few - special for you!!
״מכאן אמרו חכמים ״יפה שתיקה לחכמים קל וחומר לטפשים״ שנאמר (משלי יז) ״אויל מחריש חכם יחשב" ״ (מסכת פסחים פרק ט, דף צ"ט ע"א)
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
״אַבְטַלְיוֹן אוֹמֵר:
חֲכָמִים,
הִזָּהֲרוּ בְּדִבְרֵיכֶם;
שֶׁמָּא תָּחוֹבוּ חוֹבַת גָּלוּת,
וְתִגְלוּ לִמְקוֹם מַיִם הָרָעִים,
וְיִשְׁתּוּ הַתַּלְמִידִים הַבָּאִים אַחֲרֵיכֶם וְיָמוּתוּ,
וְנִמְצָא שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם מִתְחַלֵּל״ (משנה אבות א יא)
Each comment of yours gets progressively dumber and dumber. It's really quite remarkable.
Careful. We want to avoid sinas chinam.
This post hits upon a raw, painful issue which has been a source of strife and contention for the entire 75-year existence of the state. Put simply, it is a classic דו שיח חרשים a discussion between deaf people which can go nowhere. It is indisputable that there are no Charedi casualties from the wars in the Batei Midrash. Its also indisputable that the Torah world (and Judaism in general) would be exceptionally poorer if not for the explosion of growth in the charedi yeshivos. As one who studied both in Hesder and Charedi yeshivos, there isn't just a qualitative difference in the learning, there is also a huge chasm in life outlook between the two worlds, a chasm which would be hard to close simply by forcing people into frameworks they cannot live in.
A youth who chooses to go to the army, especially if he enlists in a combat unit, cannot succeed as a soldier until he changes and morphs into a different person, a fighter and a killer. He is trained and honed to be different, and however gentle he may be by nature, he must disavow this side of him in the battlefield. He may return to the yeshiva and immerse himself once again in learning, but underneath there is a steely, harsh side which it is hard to eschew after being in a military milieu for so long.
Similarly, a youth who choose to go to yeshiva, especially the more serious and prominent ones, cannot succeed in studying full time until he changes and morphs into a Ben Torah, devoting his life and future to endless study. He is trained and honed to learn at all times and even when he leaves the yeshiva, there is a unique sense of commitment to comporting himself as a representative of Torah, in appearance, speech, technological permits and cultural lifestyle.
There are of course many in the middle- those who don't fit the yeshiva model or the army-yeshiva model in the national religious camp. Most of these will eventually find themselves serving in a non-combat role or in Shlav Bet frameworks enabling charedim to work.
It is true that many charedim who don't fit the yeshiva model could integrate into meaningful combat service and stay chareidi, but the price both for them and their community would be too high: It would threaten the model they have set as the ideal for their children, challenge the entire lifestyle of seclusion, of withdrawal from secularism, from Zionism etc. Thus in most cases those youths who enlisted left the community, abandoned their roots and searched for a place where they could be comfortable with integrating army service in their lives.
The attempts to find a Torah basis for adopting one specific way of life are ludicrous. Just as the Talmud concludes that most people can't be like Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai but a minority can, so most people cannot study day and night (and should go out to work, do some form of military service and maintain their various ideals) but some can and should study like that, and there is strong basis for exempting them from army service- just as the Leviim did not serve even in the wars conquering Canaan and David stayed in the Beis Midrash while Yoav was in the army.
I adopted this approach with my own children. If they showed aptitude for study, I would encourage them to continue as long as they wished, but if they wanted to serve in the IDF and combine it with their learning, I gave them my full backing. Most of them chose to serve (some in combat units), some chose to stay in yeshiva and each of them found meaning in the path they had chosen. I think they respect one another despite the very different life choices they have made, and the least I would expect would be that those studying devote their learning (and even mention by name) the ones who are putting their lives on the line to defend their brethren.
You're not looking at what the *country* needs. The country needs more soldiers.
According to comments here and also according to the behavior of the ultra-Orthodox for a long time, it must be stated: the large part are convinced that they are the true "Israel" and anyone who is not ultra-Orthodox has withdrawn from Judaism. Therefore, they do not feel any strong enough emotional connection to cause them to act, towards the poor who are not from the community theirs, towards abductees not theirs and rapes not theirs. Emotionally, they have no reason to waste time and certainly not their lives on people who are not theirs. Therefore, they treat all references to them on this matter - according to the Halacha, the morals, the emotion, as the harassment of "Gentiles" There is absolutely no need to reply to them. Their idlers, make "fun" of laughing, insulting, humiliating and getting smart with these "heathens". So in this blog and other similar blogs.
Practically speaking: many ultra-Orthodox Minyanim do not count 10, "Zionist Jews"; The food of the Zionists is not kosher and so are the Rabbis, DAYANIM, Shochatim and SOFRIM. The books of their rabbis do not enter the homes and yeshiva of ultra-Orthodox. Haredim do not live among the Zionists, do not study with them and do not marry with them. Haredim don't give them work and, if possible, don't buy from them.
The fact that from the biological point of view, there is still much in common in DNA, does not make two distinct groups 100% one people. Rather, differentiation is a centrophagic force, a process that intensifies and strengthens; Distances these groups from each other, emotionally and socially.
Charedi tzedaka organizations help anyone, religious or not.
Any Shomer Shabbos is counted lechatchila towards a Minyan, whatever his beliefs. In Zichron Moshe, Itzkowitz, Shomrei Shabbos, and Kol Shimshon.
The food supervised by a weak, badly funded Hashgacha is not considered Kosher, whether Zionist or NK.
Your list of lies says more about you than it says about any community.
Thank you for calling me a liar. Indeed, this is the level of your dialogue הפוסל, במומו פוסל (שו"ע א"ה ב).
"Zichron Moshe" ,Itzkowitz and Gur-nadlan Benei Barak. My own and my son's experiments. It has nothing to do with belief or Shemirat Shabat. It's the Kipah
Do you know the Zionists Hashgaha and Haredi personally? Or are you convinced that Zionist Hashgaha is always "weak" and your sectoral Haredi Badats are always 100%? How did you know that your Badats is Kosher?
You can't go around attacking me and my community with lies, and then whine victim.
It doesn't work like that.
I saw Sharansky daven at the amud in Zichron Moshe, with a full minyan. It is possible you acted your usual obnoxious self and thought you were ostracized for being a Zionist, I can't know.
The Rabbanut Hashgachos are underfunded, and no serious person can trust them. Not because of beliefs, but because of their structure.