I once witnessed a certain individual ignore his Mother's pleas for a little help Erev Shabbes.
"Just set the cutlery on the table." After five requests , the mother gave up and did it herself. The son showed up about 40 minutes later and seeing the table was completely set declared:
צדיקים מלאכתם נעשית בידי אחרים
Until that moment, I was never sure if hell was a real place or just a mashal.
I know this is often stated as a joke with a sense of irony and maybe even self-deprecation. But after the 50th time you hear it from the same "tzadik", it isn't funny anymore.
אמר להן, כך מקובלני מבית אבי אבא: לעולם ישכיר אדם עצמו לעבודה זרה ואל יצטרך לבריות. והוא סבר: לעבודה זרה ממש. ולא היא, אלא עבודה זרה – עבודה שזרה לו, ...
What really bothered me is that the editors apologized for posting the original letter. There was nothing wrong with it! I don't think the American kollel system is bad, and for many it is very good, and if someone wants to go into it consciously, that's fine with me. But it's OK for others to have an opinion about the financial stability thereof! It was a letter, for goodness sakes, not an official statement by the editors! The fact they felt the need to apologize was Orwellian to the extreme and reeks of "The Emperor has no Clothes."
For me the best part was the unintentional irony of him writing
"A notion as critical as the one the letter writer wrote, that bnei Torah should be encouraged to engage in a side occupation to help sustain themselves, should be discussed and decided upon not by some armchair da'as Torah sending an email to the local paper."
he thereby disqualifies himself too, yet another armchair daas torah
He gives an eclectic variety of suggestions of possible income:
- a wife who works extremely hard to support him
- sometimes parents/in-laws who assist financially
- Often a Rich Uncle helps out
- Discounts, second-hand items, hand-me-downs.
- Cars that last far longer than their natural life expectancies.
- unexpected grants,
- sometimes a yerushah suddenly appears...
- the list of grasshoppers that bnei Torah witness is endless.
One could take issue with many of his points (acc to him, parents helping out is less common than rich uncles!?)
But noteworthy in this long list is he omits the two biggest elephants in the room
1. He pays no mention to the fact that the kollel world exists financially due to the generosity of Jewish donors . Astonishingly this is completed omitted. As if to suggest their source of income is entirely godly grasshoppers!
2. Likewise no mention of govt support, whether legitimate or otherwise
Someone could do a pie chart showing the proportion of income provided by Jewish donors / govt support / all the godly grasshoppers. It would make for interesting reading
#1 is explicitly in the article: "One outstanding case in point is a philanthropist from Monsey who supported Mosdos Breslov for much of his adult life, until one fine day he decided, for no apparent reason, to spearhead a radical and audacious plan to raise the kollel checks in BMG"
The same could be said of someone in the ghetto living off a welfare check. Somehow they get by month-to-month, but that doesn't mean their lifestyle is sanctioned by God! It proves nothing, other than that society won't let them starve.
In an upside down world of immortality and broken families, it is extremely refreshing to witness idealistic, religious people who embrace healthy family values which emphasise the importance in raising children and not only thinking of ourselves and our materialistic gains.
I like the subdued tone of this article, no all out hate, no all out scorn for Torah. Strange thing for the Voice to do, and proper response from a dissenting view - a view which I think many people in Lakewood agree to.
Interesting article. I wonder if there might be a future sociology PhD student that would be interested in researching the financial reality of kollel learners as a dissertation subject. Everything everyone says about this subject is anecdotal. Kollelite are actually suffering, they are actually making it, etc., etc. As far as I know, no one has actually, properly researched the subject. Maybe I'm wrrong. Can someone forward me a link to such research?
There is that saying in Israel, when you ask someone how are you making it, how did you buy your house, etc., people frequently say that they have no idea how it all worked out but somehow, it did. (For the record, my wife and I also say the same thing. We built our house in the North; and we still can't believe we did it.) Miracles do happen but, I think, mostly in Israel. But again, that's all anecdotal. And, by the way, until recently, I worked full-time.
You say "thank your wife", which sounds great! But then you say, "not God".
When something good happens to us, isn't it proper to thank BOTH the messenger (e.g. wife who works hard, donors, doctors, etc) and God?
I personally don't see the contradiction that these people see the hand of God in enabling bachurim to continue learning in Kollel, and acknowledge that the enablement is via natural means.
My impression reading the original article was, "Kollel is beneficial, so though not everyone is fortunate enough to end up having sufficient money to make it work, it often does, so it's worth trying to go to Kollel the traditional way for as long as you reasonably can."
Based on Facebook comments,
1) I guess many are bothered by the concept of "end up having," as if to imply there's nobody to thank in such situations. I personally didn't think he implied that, but instead didn't say so explicitly because it was just out of scope from his thesis. Obvious, even, that they would appreciate in the instance.
2) It seems the other issue is whether it's laudable to go to Kollel without being sure in advance how they'll manage living expenses. I personally don't see that as relying on a miracle (tangentially, if miracles are so rare as to be entirely unexpected, what the avreich/bachur is hoping for doesn't seem to qualify as one). Isn't it allowed to *try* to do something valuable even without knowing if or how it'll work out? Would we say a determined, but poor, person shouldn't go to college until they have 4 years of financing planned out? To me, the issue with relying on a miracle is when the consequences of failure is bad. Here, the consequence is cessation of the valuable thing. No harm done.
Whose learning is more "lishma."? The yungerman getting a kollel stipend, or that baal habayit who gets up early and goes to bed late in order to get in a couple of sedarim while working full time?
Intent is the secondary consideration. Action is the primary one.
But the issue only begins after we know what circumstances allow. If for instance the working person is (financially, emotionally etc.) able to learn the whole day but goes to work instead, that's Bitul Torah, despite the advantage that his intent during his early morning and his evening learning may be purer. He Batteled from 9 to 5. He's better in his intent but worse in his action.
It also isn't clear that the Yungerman isn't learning Lishmah. If he wants money he can get a job, whether it's one which requires schooling or not. He can get a job at the grocery and make more than he gets from Kollel. The BM"G "raise" to 1k a month comes to less than $50 a day. Does receiving much less than minimum wage qualify as a Shelo Lishmah?
Ultimately, and as Yakov points out, it depends on the individual, and whether they're maximizing their time within their capabilities and circumstances. Regarding Lishma, I'd say they're both very Lishmah, with the worker perhaps a tad higher.
I really don't get why your so obsessed with an obscure paper in Lakewood. You were זוכה to make Aliyah where you can raise your kids in an atmosphere where nobody knows a thing about BMG and has never heard of Rav Malkiel. Our focus should be on building up the jews here in Israel who will continue to thrive (we just need to merit it as the land was given to us על תנאי). As for those גלות jews who don't work- If Hashem gives them success, fine. If He doesn't and they end up going to work, also fine. Maybe they'll make Aliya and join us on the world's front lines! Who know? They should be poor if they don't work! Why should the welfare of those who choose poverty concern us? We have dozens of our own institutions to support!
As for the charedim in Israel, they're going to work slowly but surely. The more religious the government and society becomes the less reason they'll have to stay in their 4 אמות.
When I learned for a short period in a Mifal HaShas kollel, we were learning a single track of 8 daf of Choshen Mishpat a month, with Tur, Beis Yosef, Shach, סמ"ע, and Ketzos. It took us all day to cover all that material in a month.
Our Rosh Kollel was learning two tracks of Mifal HaShas: the Choshen Mishpat one of the kollel, and Yoreh Deah. But he was exceptionally disciplined.
It made me think that--and this is purely my own conjecture--if we were given only 4 hours a day to learn the material, we'd learn more intensely during those 4 hours, because we know we don't have any time to learn after that. When you start the day knowing that you have 8 hours, you tend to stretch it out.
In such a case, a person could learn only in a half-day kollel, and work the other part of the day (if they can find such a type of parnassah).
can you elaborate on how you guys learned and made chazoros ? I'm contemplating of joining the mifal hashas exams. I'm just scared I won't be able to also cover the big amount and make enough chazores
Dirshu Kinyan Halachah may be more for you. The pace is really meant for someone who has already learned the material once, but it's not overwhelming. The bechinos are comprehensive yet fair.
Well, when I learned in Mifal HaShas, at first, the Rosh Kollel (Rabbi Moshe Trachtman שליט"א) said that maybe 8 daf a month of Choshen Mishpat was too much for me, and that 6 is how much I could handle.
But later, at one point, before the monthly exam, I said, "If only I had three more days to review the material!" (I used to just finish the quota of material in the course of the month.)
My Rosh Kollel answered, "You come 1 hour late every day. [I used to have to take my son to cheder, etc.] If you would come on time, you would have three extra days to review the material!"
In short, he was of the opinion that the quota of learning is within a person's grasp, if he has the right amount of background, and doesn't goof off during seder. He felt that a person should be doing review of the material all the time, not just at the end of the month.
I went today and it was the 500th exam. They did a lechaim and I spoke with some people. basically its about dedication. And as you say, about using time wisely. It will take me a while to get into the right rhythm
also i want to add the kiddush hashem to see a group of people, of all backrounds, litvaks, chasidim, sefardim and dati leumi sitting together and being bounded by the fact that took upon themselves to toil on our Holy Toirah.
I believe it's the main point that this blog misses. Slifkin might have some good arguments and important criticism against the Charedi world. But as long he doesn't understand that life which is dedicated to something bigger then fulfilling our egoistic needs. It's a life that pays a big price and isn't attractive from the outside, but it gives a satisfaction that is unmatchable.
"sometimes a yerushah suddenly appears..."
Feeling so warm that HK"BH would knock off a rich relative just for my benefit.
Wait a Sec! Maybe I'm the rich relative. Aggg,.... Rosebud...
I once witnessed a certain individual ignore his Mother's pleas for a little help Erev Shabbes.
"Just set the cutlery on the table." After five requests , the mother gave up and did it herself. The son showed up about 40 minutes later and seeing the table was completely set declared:
צדיקים מלאכתם נעשית בידי אחרים
Until that moment, I was never sure if hell was a real place or just a mashal.
Hell is a place where there is no sense of humour
I know this is often stated as a joke with a sense of irony and maybe even self-deprecation. But after the 50th time you hear it from the same "tzadik", it isn't funny anymore.
אמר להן, כך מקובלני מבית אבי אבא: לעולם ישכיר אדם עצמו לעבודה זרה ואל יצטרך לבריות. והוא סבר: לעבודה זרה ממש. ולא היא, אלא עבודה זרה – עבודה שזרה לו, ...
One's man halachic obligation is another man's עבודה זרה.
What was he doing instead of helping?
Does it matter? His mother asked him; that should have been enough to fulfill Kibbud Av VaEm and listen ti her.
What really bothered me is that the editors apologized for posting the original letter. There was nothing wrong with it! I don't think the American kollel system is bad, and for many it is very good, and if someone wants to go into it consciously, that's fine with me. But it's OK for others to have an opinion about the financial stability thereof! It was a letter, for goodness sakes, not an official statement by the editors! The fact they felt the need to apologize was Orwellian to the extreme and reeks of "The Emperor has no Clothes."
For me the best part was the unintentional irony of him writing
"A notion as critical as the one the letter writer wrote, that bnei Torah should be encouraged to engage in a side occupation to help sustain themselves, should be discussed and decided upon not by some armchair da'as Torah sending an email to the local paper."
he thereby disqualifies himself too, yet another armchair daas torah
He gives an eclectic variety of suggestions of possible income:
- a wife who works extremely hard to support him
- sometimes parents/in-laws who assist financially
- Often a Rich Uncle helps out
- Discounts, second-hand items, hand-me-downs.
- Cars that last far longer than their natural life expectancies.
- unexpected grants,
- sometimes a yerushah suddenly appears...
- the list of grasshoppers that bnei Torah witness is endless.
One could take issue with many of his points (acc to him, parents helping out is less common than rich uncles!?)
But noteworthy in this long list is he omits the two biggest elephants in the room
1. He pays no mention to the fact that the kollel world exists financially due to the generosity of Jewish donors . Astonishingly this is completed omitted. As if to suggest their source of income is entirely godly grasshoppers!
2. Likewise no mention of govt support, whether legitimate or otherwise
Someone could do a pie chart showing the proportion of income provided by Jewish donors / govt support / all the godly grasshoppers. It would make for interesting reading
#1 is explicitly in the article: "One outstanding case in point is a philanthropist from Monsey who supported Mosdos Breslov for much of his adult life, until one fine day he decided, for no apparent reason, to spearhead a radical and audacious plan to raise the kollel checks in BMG"
Sounds like a plague of grasshoppers….
The same could be said of someone in the ghetto living off a welfare check. Somehow they get by month-to-month, but that doesn't mean their lifestyle is sanctioned by God! It proves nothing, other than that society won't let them starve.
Think if there are differences between a Kollel check & a welfare check.
Ok, any poor person who lives month-to-month if that makes you happy. My point stands.
In an upside down world of immortality and broken families, it is extremely refreshing to witness idealistic, religious people who embrace healthy family values which emphasise the importance in raising children and not only thinking of ourselves and our materialistic gains.
Natan, do you read all the other ladies papers in Lakewood as well?!
Coming back with a bang after 5 low reader interest posts. 250 comments coming soon lol
I like the subdued tone of this article, no all out hate, no all out scorn for Torah. Strange thing for the Voice to do, and proper response from a dissenting view - a view which I think many people in Lakewood agree to.
Interesting article. I wonder if there might be a future sociology PhD student that would be interested in researching the financial reality of kollel learners as a dissertation subject. Everything everyone says about this subject is anecdotal. Kollelite are actually suffering, they are actually making it, etc., etc. As far as I know, no one has actually, properly researched the subject. Maybe I'm wrrong. Can someone forward me a link to such research?
There is that saying in Israel, when you ask someone how are you making it, how did you buy your house, etc., people frequently say that they have no idea how it all worked out but somehow, it did. (For the record, my wife and I also say the same thing. We built our house in the North; and we still can't believe we did it.) Miracles do happen but, I think, mostly in Israel. But again, that's all anecdotal. And, by the way, until recently, I worked full-time.
Interesting documents. Thanks for finding them. It'll give me something to read when I'm bored.
You say "thank your wife", which sounds great! But then you say, "not God".
When something good happens to us, isn't it proper to thank BOTH the messenger (e.g. wife who works hard, donors, doctors, etc) and God?
I personally don't see the contradiction that these people see the hand of God in enabling bachurim to continue learning in Kollel, and acknowledge that the enablement is via natural means.
My impression reading the original article was, "Kollel is beneficial, so though not everyone is fortunate enough to end up having sufficient money to make it work, it often does, so it's worth trying to go to Kollel the traditional way for as long as you reasonably can."
Based on Facebook comments,
1) I guess many are bothered by the concept of "end up having," as if to imply there's nobody to thank in such situations. I personally didn't think he implied that, but instead didn't say so explicitly because it was just out of scope from his thesis. Obvious, even, that they would appreciate in the instance.
2) It seems the other issue is whether it's laudable to go to Kollel without being sure in advance how they'll manage living expenses. I personally don't see that as relying on a miracle (tangentially, if miracles are so rare as to be entirely unexpected, what the avreich/bachur is hoping for doesn't seem to qualify as one). Isn't it allowed to *try* to do something valuable even without knowing if or how it'll work out? Would we say a determined, but poor, person shouldn't go to college until they have 4 years of financing planned out? To me, the issue with relying on a miracle is when the consequences of failure is bad. Here, the consequence is cessation of the valuable thing. No harm done.
Whose learning is more "lishma."? The yungerman getting a kollel stipend, or that baal habayit who gets up early and goes to bed late in order to get in a couple of sedarim while working full time?
Intent is the secondary consideration. Action is the primary one.
But the issue only begins after we know what circumstances allow. If for instance the working person is (financially, emotionally etc.) able to learn the whole day but goes to work instead, that's Bitul Torah, despite the advantage that his intent during his early morning and his evening learning may be purer. He Batteled from 9 to 5. He's better in his intent but worse in his action.
It also isn't clear that the Yungerman isn't learning Lishmah. If he wants money he can get a job, whether it's one which requires schooling or not. He can get a job at the grocery and make more than he gets from Kollel. The BM"G "raise" to 1k a month comes to less than $50 a day. Does receiving much less than minimum wage qualify as a Shelo Lishmah?
Ultimately, and as Yakov points out, it depends on the individual, and whether they're maximizing their time within their capabilities and circumstances. Regarding Lishma, I'd say they're both very Lishmah, with the worker perhaps a tad higher.
Indeed. The ba'al habayit gets far more sechar.
It obviously depends on the individual.
A friend of mine responds:
https://daastorah.substack.com/p/the-voice-of-reason
I really don't get why your so obsessed with an obscure paper in Lakewood. You were זוכה to make Aliyah where you can raise your kids in an atmosphere where nobody knows a thing about BMG and has never heard of Rav Malkiel. Our focus should be on building up the jews here in Israel who will continue to thrive (we just need to merit it as the land was given to us על תנאי). As for those גלות jews who don't work- If Hashem gives them success, fine. If He doesn't and they end up going to work, also fine. Maybe they'll make Aliya and join us on the world's front lines! Who know? They should be poor if they don't work! Why should the welfare of those who choose poverty concern us? We have dozens of our own institutions to support!
As for the charedim in Israel, they're going to work slowly but surely. The more religious the government and society becomes the less reason they'll have to stay in their 4 אמות.
When I learned for a short period in a Mifal HaShas kollel, we were learning a single track of 8 daf of Choshen Mishpat a month, with Tur, Beis Yosef, Shach, סמ"ע, and Ketzos. It took us all day to cover all that material in a month.
Our Rosh Kollel was learning two tracks of Mifal HaShas: the Choshen Mishpat one of the kollel, and Yoreh Deah. But he was exceptionally disciplined.
It made me think that--and this is purely my own conjecture--if we were given only 4 hours a day to learn the material, we'd learn more intensely during those 4 hours, because we know we don't have any time to learn after that. When you start the day knowing that you have 8 hours, you tend to stretch it out.
In such a case, a person could learn only in a half-day kollel, and work the other part of the day (if they can find such a type of parnassah).
can you elaborate on how you guys learned and made chazoros ? I'm contemplating of joining the mifal hashas exams. I'm just scared I won't be able to also cover the big amount and make enough chazores
Dirshu Kinyan Halachah may be more for you. The pace is really meant for someone who has already learned the material once, but it's not overwhelming. The bechinos are comprehensive yet fair.
big parts of kinyan halacha I already learned via the exams of the Rabanut
Well, when I learned in Mifal HaShas, at first, the Rosh Kollel (Rabbi Moshe Trachtman שליט"א) said that maybe 8 daf a month of Choshen Mishpat was too much for me, and that 6 is how much I could handle.
But later, at one point, before the monthly exam, I said, "If only I had three more days to review the material!" (I used to just finish the quota of material in the course of the month.)
My Rosh Kollel answered, "You come 1 hour late every day. [I used to have to take my son to cheder, etc.] If you would come on time, you would have three extra days to review the material!"
In short, he was of the opinion that the quota of learning is within a person's grasp, if he has the right amount of background, and doesn't goof off during seder. He felt that a person should be doing review of the material all the time, not just at the end of the month.
I went today and it was the 500th exam. They did a lechaim and I spoke with some people. basically its about dedication. And as you say, about using time wisely. It will take me a while to get into the right rhythm
also i want to add the kiddush hashem to see a group of people, of all backrounds, litvaks, chasidim, sefardim and dati leumi sitting together and being bounded by the fact that took upon themselves to toil on our Holy Toirah.
I believe it's the main point that this blog misses. Slifkin might have some good arguments and important criticism against the Charedi world. But as long he doesn't understand that life which is dedicated to something bigger then fulfilling our egoistic needs. It's a life that pays a big price and isn't attractive from the outside, but it gives a satisfaction that is unmatchable.
“… It starts of course with a wife who works extremely hard to support him,…”
I didn’t recall ever seeing that in a ketubah…must be that new progressive liberal one that’s all the rage in Lakewood these days….