I once witnessed a certain individual ignore his Mother's pleas for a little help Erev Shabbes.
"Just set the cutlery on the table." After five requests , the mother gave up and did it herself. The son showed up about 40 minutes later and seeing the table was completely set declared:
צדיקים מלאכתם נעשית בידי אחרים
Until that moment, I was never sure if hell was a real place or just a mashal.
I know this is often stated as a joke with a sense of irony and maybe even self-deprecation. But after the 50th time you hear it from the same "tzadik", it isn't funny anymore.
אמר להן, כך מקובלני מבית אבי אבא: לעולם ישכיר אדם עצמו לעבודה זרה ואל יצטרך לבריות. והוא סבר: לעבודה זרה ממש. ולא היא, אלא עבודה זרה – עבודה שזרה לו, ...
What really bothered me is that the editors apologized for posting the original letter. There was nothing wrong with it! I don't think the American kollel system is bad, and for many it is very good, and if someone wants to go into it consciously, that's fine with me. But it's OK for others to have an opinion about the financial stability thereof! It was a letter, for goodness sakes, not an official statement by the editors! The fact they felt the need to apologize was Orwellian to the extreme and reeks of "The Emperor has no Clothes."
For me the best part was the unintentional irony of him writing
"A notion as critical as the one the letter writer wrote, that bnei Torah should be encouraged to engage in a side occupation to help sustain themselves, should be discussed and decided upon not by some armchair da'as Torah sending an email to the local paper."
he thereby disqualifies himself too, yet another armchair daas torah
"And with Bibi's days being numbered, the charedim will lose a lot of political power, which is what they need to extract money from the rest of the country."
It’s only true under the last 2 gov’ts. Prior, charedi parties joined any coalition, even left of center ones as long as they obtained financial support. their institutions were supported, even when they were in the opposition of course, under the current outburst of demonstrations by the left, there is no guarantee what the future holds.
He gives an eclectic variety of suggestions of possible income:
- a wife who works extremely hard to support him
- sometimes parents/in-laws who assist financially
- Often a Rich Uncle helps out
- Discounts, second-hand items, hand-me-downs.
- Cars that last far longer than their natural life expectancies.
- unexpected grants,
- sometimes a yerushah suddenly appears...
- the list of grasshoppers that bnei Torah witness is endless.
One could take issue with many of his points (acc to him, parents helping out is less common than rich uncles!?)
But noteworthy in this long list is he omits the two biggest elephants in the room
1. He pays no mention to the fact that the kollel world exists financially due to the generosity of Jewish donors . Astonishingly this is completed omitted. As if to suggest their source of income is entirely godly grasshoppers!
2. Likewise no mention of govt support, whether legitimate or otherwise
Someone could do a pie chart showing the proportion of income provided by Jewish donors / govt support / all the godly grasshoppers. It would make for interesting reading
#1 is explicitly in the article: "One outstanding case in point is a philanthropist from Monsey who supported Mosdos Breslov for much of his adult life, until one fine day he decided, for no apparent reason, to spearhead a radical and audacious plan to raise the kollel checks in BMG"
He is listing the unexpected reasons and methods. If someone were to ask, "How can you survive on just your Kollel check and the government?", the answer is eclectic.
The same could be said of someone in the ghetto living off a welfare check. Somehow they get by month-to-month, but that doesn't mean their lifestyle is sanctioned by God! It proves nothing, other than that society won't let them starve.
So Kollel Yungeleit are holding up stores, dealing with drugs, impregnating random teenagers and then leaving, and just not paying their rent, relying on uber-liberal tenants' rights laws to prevent any eviction?
In an upside down world of immortality and broken families, it is extremely refreshing to witness idealistic, religious people who embrace healthy family values which emphasise the importance in raising children and not only thinking of ourselves and our materialistic gains.
Slifkin has no problem with learning, he isn't one of those that עיניהם צרה בתלמידי חכמים, he doesn't think מאי אהני לן רבנן. He merely has a problem with the fact that Israeli Kollel Yungeleit force the public to support them. He has no problem with the US Kollel system at all, where nobody is forced to support anyone.
Then articles like this emerge, telling us his true opinions. And this is not just about him, but about his supporters too. Instead of seeing the hundreds and thousands of people אשר פרקו מעליהם עול חשבונות הרבים as a beautiful, inspired, dedication to something above themselves, all he sees is the dirt on the inside of his glasses.
Many Bnei Torah, especially those of the 50+ generation, had uncles and neighbors who would try to give them mussar, "How will you survive? Where is your responsibility?"
Then, some years later, they saw those relatives and neighbors and how they spent their retirement in empty boredom, and their own survival and purpose-filled lives do not require any answers.
Please. 99.9% of kollel people run around after money just like everybody else. That is not porku me'aleihem. You see what happens if their stipend is late.
In the Kollel I attended, nothing at all happened. The Yungeleit understood that it was difficult for the Rosh Kollel, and somehow they survived the months long wait for their money.
But even if some Yungeleit do 'run after money', that is not relevant here. The שנאת עם הארץ לתלמיד חכם is pointed towards those who do not. The haters have a problem with the learning and the elevated spiritual stature, not the unsavory parts. Our own host has decried the 'too great an emphasis on spiritual pursuits'. I presume you disagree with him on that.
The issue with those Yungeleit that do not chase after money. They are not free from the vitriol written by you, Slifkin, and others who have an overabundance of hate in their hearts.
I like the subdued tone of this article, no all out hate, no all out scorn for Torah. Strange thing for the Voice to do, and proper response from a dissenting view - a view which I think many people in Lakewood agree to.
Interesting article. I wonder if there might be a future sociology PhD student that would be interested in researching the financial reality of kollel learners as a dissertation subject. Everything everyone says about this subject is anecdotal. Kollelite are actually suffering, they are actually making it, etc., etc. As far as I know, no one has actually, properly researched the subject. Maybe I'm wrrong. Can someone forward me a link to such research?
There is that saying in Israel, when you ask someone how are you making it, how did you buy your house, etc., people frequently say that they have no idea how it all worked out but somehow, it did. (For the record, my wife and I also say the same thing. We built our house in the North; and we still can't believe we did it.) Miracles do happen but, I think, mostly in Israel. But again, that's all anecdotal. And, by the way, until recently, I worked full-time.
"I wonder if there might be a future sociology PhD student that would be interested in researching the financial reality of kollel learners as a dissertation subject....Can someone forward me a link to such research?"
I googled around a bit. Found a few things which look interesting. I haven't read them and have no idea what level quality they are.
You say "thank your wife", which sounds great! But then you say, "not God".
When something good happens to us, isn't it proper to thank BOTH the messenger (e.g. wife who works hard, donors, doctors, etc) and God?
I personally don't see the contradiction that these people see the hand of God in enabling bachurim to continue learning in Kollel, and acknowledge that the enablement is via natural means.
My impression reading the original article was, "Kollel is beneficial, so though not everyone is fortunate enough to end up having sufficient money to make it work, it often does, so it's worth trying to go to Kollel the traditional way for as long as you reasonably can."
Based on Facebook comments,
1) I guess many are bothered by the concept of "end up having," as if to imply there's nobody to thank in such situations. I personally didn't think he implied that, but instead didn't say so explicitly because it was just out of scope from his thesis. Obvious, even, that they would appreciate in the instance.
2) It seems the other issue is whether it's laudable to go to Kollel without being sure in advance how they'll manage living expenses. I personally don't see that as relying on a miracle (tangentially, if miracles are so rare as to be entirely unexpected, what the avreich/bachur is hoping for doesn't seem to qualify as one). Isn't it allowed to *try* to do something valuable even without knowing if or how it'll work out? Would we say a determined, but poor, person shouldn't go to college until they have 4 years of financing planned out? To me, the issue with relying on a miracle is when the consequences of failure is bad. Here, the consequence is cessation of the valuable thing. No harm done.
Whose learning is more "lishma."? The yungerman getting a kollel stipend, or that baal habayit who gets up early and goes to bed late in order to get in a couple of sedarim while working full time?
Intent is the secondary consideration. Action is the primary one.
But the issue only begins after we know what circumstances allow. If for instance the working person is (financially, emotionally etc.) able to learn the whole day but goes to work instead, that's Bitul Torah, despite the advantage that his intent during his early morning and his evening learning may be purer. He Batteled from 9 to 5. He's better in his intent but worse in his action.
It also isn't clear that the Yungerman isn't learning Lishmah. If he wants money he can get a job, whether it's one which requires schooling or not. He can get a job at the grocery and make more than he gets from Kollel. The BM"G "raise" to 1k a month comes to less than $50 a day. Does receiving much less than minimum wage qualify as a Shelo Lishmah?
Ultimately, and as Yakov points out, it depends on the individual, and whether they're maximizing their time within their capabilities and circumstances. Regarding Lishma, I'd say they're both very Lishmah, with the worker perhaps a tad higher.
I really don't get why your so obsessed with an obscure paper in Lakewood. You were זוכה to make Aliyah where you can raise your kids in an atmosphere where nobody knows a thing about BMG and has never heard of Rav Malkiel. Our focus should be on building up the jews here in Israel who will continue to thrive (we just need to merit it as the land was given to us על תנאי). As for those גלות jews who don't work- If Hashem gives them success, fine. If He doesn't and they end up going to work, also fine. Maybe they'll make Aliya and join us on the world's front lines! Who know? They should be poor if they don't work! Why should the welfare of those who choose poverty concern us? We have dozens of our own institutions to support!
As for the charedim in Israel, they're going to work slowly but surely. The more religious the government and society becomes the less reason they'll have to stay in their 4 אמות.
"sometimes a yerushah suddenly appears..."
Feeling so warm that HK"BH would knock off a rich relative just for my benefit.
Wait a Sec! Maybe I'm the rich relative. Aggg,.... Rosebud...
I once witnessed a certain individual ignore his Mother's pleas for a little help Erev Shabbes.
"Just set the cutlery on the table." After five requests , the mother gave up and did it herself. The son showed up about 40 minutes later and seeing the table was completely set declared:
צדיקים מלאכתם נעשית בידי אחרים
Until that moment, I was never sure if hell was a real place or just a mashal.
Hell is a place where there is no sense of humour
I know this is often stated as a joke with a sense of irony and maybe even self-deprecation. But after the 50th time you hear it from the same "tzadik", it isn't funny anymore.
אמר להן, כך מקובלני מבית אבי אבא: לעולם ישכיר אדם עצמו לעבודה זרה ואל יצטרך לבריות. והוא סבר: לעבודה זרה ממש. ולא היא, אלא עבודה זרה – עבודה שזרה לו, ...
One's man halachic obligation is another man's עבודה זרה.
What was he doing instead of helping?
Does it matter? His mother asked him; that should have been enough to fulfill Kibbud Av VaEm and listen ti her.
What really bothered me is that the editors apologized for posting the original letter. There was nothing wrong with it! I don't think the American kollel system is bad, and for many it is very good, and if someone wants to go into it consciously, that's fine with me. But it's OK for others to have an opinion about the financial stability thereof! It was a letter, for goodness sakes, not an official statement by the editors! The fact they felt the need to apologize was Orwellian to the extreme and reeks of "The Emperor has no Clothes."
For me the best part was the unintentional irony of him writing
"A notion as critical as the one the letter writer wrote, that bnei Torah should be encouraged to engage in a side occupation to help sustain themselves, should be discussed and decided upon not by some armchair da'as Torah sending an email to the local paper."
he thereby disqualifies himself too, yet another armchair daas torah
I don't understand why you need to keep whining about a phenomenon which was already dying 3 years ago.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/kollel-1943-2020
That prophecy has been said again and again, and for some reason, it doesn't end up happening.
Every time the Kollel system's obituary is written, it comes back to life. But the grasshopper phenomenon is still a joke to them.
Nobody is as blind as someone who willfully blinds himself.
From that post, LOL.
"And with Bibi's days being numbered, the charedim will lose a lot of political power, which is what they need to extract money from the rest of the country."
It’s only true under the last 2 gov’ts. Prior, charedi parties joined any coalition, even left of center ones as long as they obtained financial support. their institutions were supported, even when they were in the opposition of course, under the current outburst of demonstrations by the left, there is no guarantee what the future holds.
He gives an eclectic variety of suggestions of possible income:
- a wife who works extremely hard to support him
- sometimes parents/in-laws who assist financially
- Often a Rich Uncle helps out
- Discounts, second-hand items, hand-me-downs.
- Cars that last far longer than their natural life expectancies.
- unexpected grants,
- sometimes a yerushah suddenly appears...
- the list of grasshoppers that bnei Torah witness is endless.
One could take issue with many of his points (acc to him, parents helping out is less common than rich uncles!?)
But noteworthy in this long list is he omits the two biggest elephants in the room
1. He pays no mention to the fact that the kollel world exists financially due to the generosity of Jewish donors . Astonishingly this is completed omitted. As if to suggest their source of income is entirely godly grasshoppers!
2. Likewise no mention of govt support, whether legitimate or otherwise
Someone could do a pie chart showing the proportion of income provided by Jewish donors / govt support / all the godly grasshoppers. It would make for interesting reading
#1 is explicitly in the article: "One outstanding case in point is a philanthropist from Monsey who supported Mosdos Breslov for much of his adult life, until one fine day he decided, for no apparent reason, to spearhead a radical and audacious plan to raise the kollel checks in BMG"
You're missing his point totally.
He is listing the unexpected reasons and methods. If someone were to ask, "How can you survive on just your Kollel check and the government?", the answer is eclectic.
As any long-term Kollel yungerman can attest.
The same could be said of someone in the ghetto living off a welfare check. Somehow they get by month-to-month, but that doesn't mean their lifestyle is sanctioned by God! It proves nothing, other than that society won't let them starve.
Think if there are differences between a Kollel check & a welfare check.
So Kollel Yungeleit are holding up stores, dealing with drugs, impregnating random teenagers and then leaving, and just not paying their rent, relying on uber-liberal tenants' rights laws to prevent any eviction?
Ok, any poor person who lives month-to-month if that makes you happy. My point stands.
Of course. Because they have money to live month to month and the Kollel Yungerman does not. Yet he manages.
That was kinda the point, for those who read it.
Sounds like a plague of grasshoppers….
In an upside down world of immortality and broken families, it is extremely refreshing to witness idealistic, religious people who embrace healthy family values which emphasise the importance in raising children and not only thinking of ourselves and our materialistic gains.
The truth always emerges.
Slifkin has no problem with learning, he isn't one of those that עיניהם צרה בתלמידי חכמים, he doesn't think מאי אהני לן רבנן. He merely has a problem with the fact that Israeli Kollel Yungeleit force the public to support them. He has no problem with the US Kollel system at all, where nobody is forced to support anyone.
Then articles like this emerge, telling us his true opinions. And this is not just about him, but about his supporters too. Instead of seeing the hundreds and thousands of people אשר פרקו מעליהם עול חשבונות הרבים as a beautiful, inspired, dedication to something above themselves, all he sees is the dirt on the inside of his glasses.
Many Bnei Torah, especially those of the 50+ generation, had uncles and neighbors who would try to give them mussar, "How will you survive? Where is your responsibility?"
Then, some years later, they saw those relatives and neighbors and how they spent their retirement in empty boredom, and their own survival and purpose-filled lives do not require any answers.
פרקו מעליהם עול חשבונות הרבים
Please. 99.9% of kollel people run around after money just like everybody else. That is not porku me'aleihem. You see what happens if their stipend is late.
What happens when their stipend is late?
In the Kollel I attended, nothing at all happened. The Yungeleit understood that it was difficult for the Rosh Kollel, and somehow they survived the months long wait for their money.
But even if some Yungeleit do 'run after money', that is not relevant here. The שנאת עם הארץ לתלמיד חכם is pointed towards those who do not. The haters have a problem with the learning and the elevated spiritual stature, not the unsavory parts. Our own host has decried the 'too great an emphasis on spiritual pursuits'. I presume you disagree with him on that.
"But even if some Yungeleit do 'run after money', that is not relevant here."
It's very relevant dear. It is not פרקו מעליהם עול חשבונות הרבים if they run after money.
Not sure what haters have to do with anything here.
The issue with those Yungeleit that do not chase after money. They are not free from the vitriol written by you, Slifkin, and others who have an overabundance of hate in their hearts.
Yes, of course. Anybody who dares to point out an issue is a 'hater'. Typical actions of a cult.
Natan, do you read all the other ladies papers in Lakewood as well?!
Coming back with a bang after 5 low reader interest posts. 250 comments coming soon lol
I like the subdued tone of this article, no all out hate, no all out scorn for Torah. Strange thing for the Voice to do, and proper response from a dissenting view - a view which I think many people in Lakewood agree to.
Interesting article. I wonder if there might be a future sociology PhD student that would be interested in researching the financial reality of kollel learners as a dissertation subject. Everything everyone says about this subject is anecdotal. Kollelite are actually suffering, they are actually making it, etc., etc. As far as I know, no one has actually, properly researched the subject. Maybe I'm wrrong. Can someone forward me a link to such research?
There is that saying in Israel, when you ask someone how are you making it, how did you buy your house, etc., people frequently say that they have no idea how it all worked out but somehow, it did. (For the record, my wife and I also say the same thing. We built our house in the North; and we still can't believe we did it.) Miracles do happen but, I think, mostly in Israel. But again, that's all anecdotal. And, by the way, until recently, I worked full-time.
"I wonder if there might be a future sociology PhD student that would be interested in researching the financial reality of kollel learners as a dissertation subject....Can someone forward me a link to such research?"
I googled around a bit. Found a few things which look interesting. I haven't read them and have no idea what level quality they are.
https://fips.huji.ac.il/sites/default/files/floersheimer/files/cohen_economic_hardship_in_haredi_society_english.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Amiram-Gonen/publication/292784250_Between_Torah_Learning_and_Earning_A_Society_of_Learners_and_Providers_in_London/links/56b1339708ae56d7b069fe20/Between-Torah-Learning-and-Earning-A-Society-of-Learners-and-Providers-in-London.pdf
http://tesi.luiss.it/28502/1/637392_ZONETTI_MARIAELENA.pdf
There's also a bunch of shorter articles here:
https://iyun.org.il/en/search-results/?q=kollel+economics&cx=2032b2c8218554af6&ie=UTF-8
Interesting documents. Thanks for finding them. It'll give me something to read when I'm bored.
You say "thank your wife", which sounds great! But then you say, "not God".
When something good happens to us, isn't it proper to thank BOTH the messenger (e.g. wife who works hard, donors, doctors, etc) and God?
I personally don't see the contradiction that these people see the hand of God in enabling bachurim to continue learning in Kollel, and acknowledge that the enablement is via natural means.
My impression reading the original article was, "Kollel is beneficial, so though not everyone is fortunate enough to end up having sufficient money to make it work, it often does, so it's worth trying to go to Kollel the traditional way for as long as you reasonably can."
Based on Facebook comments,
1) I guess many are bothered by the concept of "end up having," as if to imply there's nobody to thank in such situations. I personally didn't think he implied that, but instead didn't say so explicitly because it was just out of scope from his thesis. Obvious, even, that they would appreciate in the instance.
2) It seems the other issue is whether it's laudable to go to Kollel without being sure in advance how they'll manage living expenses. I personally don't see that as relying on a miracle (tangentially, if miracles are so rare as to be entirely unexpected, what the avreich/bachur is hoping for doesn't seem to qualify as one). Isn't it allowed to *try* to do something valuable even without knowing if or how it'll work out? Would we say a determined, but poor, person shouldn't go to college until they have 4 years of financing planned out? To me, the issue with relying on a miracle is when the consequences of failure is bad. Here, the consequence is cessation of the valuable thing. No harm done.
Whose learning is more "lishma."? The yungerman getting a kollel stipend, or that baal habayit who gets up early and goes to bed late in order to get in a couple of sedarim while working full time?
Intent is the secondary consideration. Action is the primary one.
But the issue only begins after we know what circumstances allow. If for instance the working person is (financially, emotionally etc.) able to learn the whole day but goes to work instead, that's Bitul Torah, despite the advantage that his intent during his early morning and his evening learning may be purer. He Batteled from 9 to 5. He's better in his intent but worse in his action.
It also isn't clear that the Yungerman isn't learning Lishmah. If he wants money he can get a job, whether it's one which requires schooling or not. He can get a job at the grocery and make more than he gets from Kollel. The BM"G "raise" to 1k a month comes to less than $50 a day. Does receiving much less than minimum wage qualify as a Shelo Lishmah?
Ultimately, and as Yakov points out, it depends on the individual, and whether they're maximizing their time within their capabilities and circumstances. Regarding Lishma, I'd say they're both very Lishmah, with the worker perhaps a tad higher.
Indeed. The ba'al habayit gets far more sechar.
It obviously depends on the individual.
A friend of mine responds:
https://daastorah.substack.com/p/the-voice-of-reason
I really don't get why your so obsessed with an obscure paper in Lakewood. You were זוכה to make Aliyah where you can raise your kids in an atmosphere where nobody knows a thing about BMG and has never heard of Rav Malkiel. Our focus should be on building up the jews here in Israel who will continue to thrive (we just need to merit it as the land was given to us על תנאי). As for those גלות jews who don't work- If Hashem gives them success, fine. If He doesn't and they end up going to work, also fine. Maybe they'll make Aliya and join us on the world's front lines! Who know? They should be poor if they don't work! Why should the welfare of those who choose poverty concern us? We have dozens of our own institutions to support!
As for the charedim in Israel, they're going to work slowly but surely. The more religious the government and society becomes the less reason they'll have to stay in their 4 אמות.