Haredim were rioting almost daily in Ramat Bet Shemesh 20 years ago and my 10 year old daughter was returning home from school on the 14 bus on Nachal HaYarden when mobs of rioting Haredim surrounded the bus and began to rock it back and forth, trying to overturn it. She made it home in tears. From that point we had to drive her to and from school every day. For a long time she spoke about those very bad people. That trauma was a factor in her moving away from observance. Today she has a Masters Degree in Nursing, and for a time she worked in Mayanei HaYeshua hospital. Her contact with the Haredi community there did not change her attitude about Haredim for the positive. Those Haredim who traumatized her will have much to answer for if they ever make it to their Olam Habah. I imagine that the eye that sees and the ear that hears and everything is recorded in a book will prove to be quite an embarrassment, if they do indeed make it there.
The videos are really tragic. They unfortunately demonstrate what has become increasingly clear over the years in that charedim simply don’t represent anything like true jewish values.
It seems to me that while you do a good job of rationally explaining the shortcomings of that community, there should also be a religious response. There should be a clear movement that says effectively “given their clear disregard for jewish and halachic principles we cannot trust the charedi establishment’s religious rulings”.
This means that we should not trust their hechsherim (unless they are accompanied by a reliable hechsher, and even then it is preferable to avoid food covered by their hechsherim altogether), we can not trust their rulings in marriage, conversion, etc. should not carry in their eiruvin, should not consider their semicha to be valid etc.)
I think this is important for a few reasons:
1 - it is intellectually honest. If a community won’t even make a simple statement denouncing its own members who openly physically attack people and property in the street, how can you rely on that same communities judgement in other areas of halacha.
2 - it fights fire with fire. For years the charedi establishment has been seen (by itself and thus by others too) as the “de-facto” ultimate arbiters of halacha and what it means to be “frum”. This has effectively immunised them from a lot of criticism and means that many traditional people would fear to castigate them to a far higher degree than someone in the “dati-leumi” rabbinate. It’s surely time to flip that script and use the weapon of religious superiority that they have wielded so effectively against them.
3 - it hits them where it hurts most - in their pockets. When a restaurant fears getting an eida charedis hechsher not just because of its cost, but because they will lose customers who simply refuse to eat it, that will change the dynamic significantly.
I will agree that the situation is ad extremus in the Chareidi Circles as you have noted, but let it be said that unlawful child care facilities are a ubiquitous problem here in the United States and suspect elsewhere too. It is simply too easy and tempting to try and circumvent the rules. Sadly it is our most precious possession that we endanger.
These people are basically cowards. All it would take is for a few Anglo guys getting off a blocked bus out out of their blocked cars grab a few of those idiots by their lapels, knock them to the ground and they will run away. Demonstation over. They have no physical stamina and no bravery. They are a mob and have a mob mentality
Just to be fair, these violent extremists are not representative of the mast majority of Charedim, nor do the Charedi politicians represent them. That said, there seems to be a big fear in the mainstream Charedi world of confronting the extremists and their leaders.
Just to be fair they are indeed representative. Most don’t work. Thousands demonstrate violently and even those who don’t silently agree with thier views.
Massively incorrect. The Charedi congregation reflects cheating on torah and the public purse (those charedim who claim to be learning but are really working), lack of hakoras hatov (soldiers who have lost lives or been injured protecting Israelis, or who have sacrificed months of their lives and earnings they have foregone by their service in the IDF).
Further in my town there were extensive charedi communities who cheated on their legal and Torah required obligations to maintain isolation and not to mix in shul, schools, or anywhere during Covid.
The Shas party - a major Charedi party is headed by Arie Deeri who has an alleged crooked record: According to Wikipedia Deri was convicted of taking $155,000 in bribes while serving as the interior minister, and was given a three-year jail sentence in 2000.
Having a criminal or crook at the top of a main Charedi party says it all. As the yiddish saying has it:
“פֿון קאָפּ אָן שטינקט דער פֿיש” Fun kop on shtinkt der fish
Literal translation: “From the head, the fish stinks.”
Meaning: When something is corrupt, dysfunctional, or morally rotten, the problem starts at the top — leadership is to blame.
A few helpful notes:
It’s often described as Yiddish, but the proverb exists across many cultures (Greek, Turkish, Russian, German). Yiddish absorbed and popularized it in Jewish communities of Eastern Europe.
In English it’s usually rendered as “The fish rots from the head.”
Of course there are many Charedim who are honest and upright and work for a living and are not parasites but it is the prevailing culture and practice that counts in assessing a community.
BTW all my grandparents were charedi and many of my family still is. On my Israeli family's semi charedi side there were 8 serving soldiers in the IDF - and I believe all of them subscribe to the disgust many of us have at the thuggery, greed, arrogance and corruption which is evident in substantial segments of charedi society.
Maybe they are not representative of the majority of Charedim but you wouldn't know it since no Charedi leaders publicly disassociate from them. And if, in fact, there is fear by the majority of Charedim (including their leaders) of these extremists, I think that too says a lot.
Chani Katz, mother of the toddler who died in the nursery: "The nanny does not deserve to go through what she is going through, she is a second mother to my children. They are innocent. It was a decree from heaven, my Ari should have died, he probably finished his job" (Yoeli Brim)
I really hope that she is saying this because of pressure from Chareidi community to protect the gananet. Because it's an attitude of completely denying the possibility of negligence, that there's nothing that could have been done, since it's always Hashem's will.
Haredim were rioting almost daily in Ramat Bet Shemesh 20 years ago and my 10 year old daughter was returning home from school on the 14 bus on Nachal HaYarden when mobs of rioting Haredim surrounded the bus and began to rock it back and forth, trying to overturn it. She made it home in tears. From that point we had to drive her to and from school every day. For a long time she spoke about those very bad people. That trauma was a factor in her moving away from observance. Today she has a Masters Degree in Nursing, and for a time she worked in Mayanei HaYeshua hospital. Her contact with the Haredi community there did not change her attitude about Haredim for the positive. Those Haredim who traumatized her will have much to answer for if they ever make it to their Olam Habah. I imagine that the eye that sees and the ear that hears and everything is recorded in a book will prove to be quite an embarrassment, if they do indeed make it there.
The videos are really tragic. They unfortunately demonstrate what has become increasingly clear over the years in that charedim simply don’t represent anything like true jewish values.
It seems to me that while you do a good job of rationally explaining the shortcomings of that community, there should also be a religious response. There should be a clear movement that says effectively “given their clear disregard for jewish and halachic principles we cannot trust the charedi establishment’s religious rulings”.
This means that we should not trust their hechsherim (unless they are accompanied by a reliable hechsher, and even then it is preferable to avoid food covered by their hechsherim altogether), we can not trust their rulings in marriage, conversion, etc. should not carry in their eiruvin, should not consider their semicha to be valid etc.)
I think this is important for a few reasons:
1 - it is intellectually honest. If a community won’t even make a simple statement denouncing its own members who openly physically attack people and property in the street, how can you rely on that same communities judgement in other areas of halacha.
2 - it fights fire with fire. For years the charedi establishment has been seen (by itself and thus by others too) as the “de-facto” ultimate arbiters of halacha and what it means to be “frum”. This has effectively immunised them from a lot of criticism and means that many traditional people would fear to castigate them to a far higher degree than someone in the “dati-leumi” rabbinate. It’s surely time to flip that script and use the weapon of religious superiority that they have wielded so effectively against them.
3 - it hits them where it hurts most - in their pockets. When a restaurant fears getting an eida charedis hechsher not just because of its cost, but because they will lose customers who simply refuse to eat it, that will change the dynamic significantly.
Agreed. They need to be considered like "Kofrim" in the same way they claim everyone else who opposes them is.
Or true mature human values.
I will agree that the situation is ad extremus in the Chareidi Circles as you have noted, but let it be said that unlawful child care facilities are a ubiquitous problem here in the United States and suspect elsewhere too. It is simply too easy and tempting to try and circumvent the rules. Sadly it is our most precious possession that we endanger.
These people are basically cowards. All it would take is for a few Anglo guys getting off a blocked bus out out of their blocked cars grab a few of those idiots by their lapels, knock them to the ground and they will run away. Demonstation over. They have no physical stamina and no bravery. They are a mob and have a mob mentality
Just to be fair, these violent extremists are not representative of the mast majority of Charedim, nor do the Charedi politicians represent them. That said, there seems to be a big fear in the mainstream Charedi world of confronting the extremists and their leaders.
Just to be fair they are indeed representative. Most don’t work. Thousands demonstrate violently and even those who don’t silently agree with thier views.
Massively incorrect. The Charedi congregation reflects cheating on torah and the public purse (those charedim who claim to be learning but are really working), lack of hakoras hatov (soldiers who have lost lives or been injured protecting Israelis, or who have sacrificed months of their lives and earnings they have foregone by their service in the IDF).
Further in my town there were extensive charedi communities who cheated on their legal and Torah required obligations to maintain isolation and not to mix in shul, schools, or anywhere during Covid.
The Shas party - a major Charedi party is headed by Arie Deeri who has an alleged crooked record: According to Wikipedia Deri was convicted of taking $155,000 in bribes while serving as the interior minister, and was given a three-year jail sentence in 2000.
Having a criminal or crook at the top of a main Charedi party says it all. As the yiddish saying has it:
“פֿון קאָפּ אָן שטינקט דער פֿיש” Fun kop on shtinkt der fish
Literal translation: “From the head, the fish stinks.”
Meaning: When something is corrupt, dysfunctional, or morally rotten, the problem starts at the top — leadership is to blame.
A few helpful notes:
It’s often described as Yiddish, but the proverb exists across many cultures (Greek, Turkish, Russian, German). Yiddish absorbed and popularized it in Jewish communities of Eastern Europe.
In English it’s usually rendered as “The fish rots from the head.”
Of course there are many Charedim who are honest and upright and work for a living and are not parasites but it is the prevailing culture and practice that counts in assessing a community.
BTW all my grandparents were charedi and many of my family still is. On my Israeli family's semi charedi side there were 8 serving soldiers in the IDF - and I believe all of them subscribe to the disgust many of us have at the thuggery, greed, arrogance and corruption which is evident in substantial segments of charedi society.
Maybe they are not representative of the majority of Charedim but you wouldn't know it since no Charedi leaders publicly disassociate from them. And if, in fact, there is fear by the majority of Charedim (including their leaders) of these extremists, I think that too says a lot.
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Chani Katz, mother of the toddler who died in the nursery: "The nanny does not deserve to go through what she is going through, she is a second mother to my children. They are innocent. It was a decree from heaven, my Ari should have died, he probably finished his job" (Yoeli Brim)
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I really hope that she is saying this because of pressure from Chareidi community to protect the gananet. Because it's an attitude of completely denying the possibility of negligence, that there's nothing that could have been done, since it's always Hashem's will.
Grieving people generally cannot articulate logically