That was already answered by Rav Ahron Kotler. He was preceded by the כתב סופר quoting his father the חתם סופר who said essentially the same thing:
א״כ למה הקדים ארון לשולחן? ונ״ל ליישב דיש שני מיני ת״ח דצדיק גמור כמו ר׳ חנינא בן דוסא לא צריך למחזיק כי כל העולם ניזון בשבילו והוא מוקדם בוודאי לכל סוחרי הארץ. וא״צ להם והם צריכים לזכותו. אבל מי שלא בא למדרגה זו הוא צריך לזבולון שיפרנסו, וזבולון המחזיק קודם לו. ומעתה א״ש ארון הקדש שבו הלוחות מונחים ועמד בקדשי קדשים מרמז על ת״ח כרחב״ד שהוא קודש קדשים ואינו נהנה מעוה״ז די לו בקב חרובים זה מוקדם לכל שולחן ולמנורה. אבל מנורה מרמז על ת״ח שאינו במדרג הזו ולא נכנס עדיין לפני ולפנים וצריך להמחזיק השולחן קודם לו כנ״ל נכון וק״ל)
(כתב סופר על פרשת תרומה)
To summarize: Bnei Yeshiva who are supported by others are not in the category of שבט לוי as defined by the רמב"ם, they are categorized as שבט יששכר and have to serve. (And that may even be in a מלחמת רשות.)
My daughter told me about a conversation between a Charedi woman and Gadi Eisenkot. The woman said something to the effect, "We're afraid to send our children to the army, because it might influence them that they won't come back as observant Jews."
Gadi Eisenkot responded: "I just lost a son in Gaza. You're concerned that your son might not come back as an observant Jew. Other mothers are concerned that their son might not come back at all."
Thank you for bringing Eisenkot's comment. I believe this is a very important comment, and highlights what is probably the biggest difference between the chareidi value system and the religious Zionist value system. For chareidim, the Torah is life itself. The prospect of their children going off the derech (assuming they don't come back) is worse than their children losing their lives. For religious Zionists, it seems their children going off the derech is not such a big deal, as long as they are loyal citizens of Israel and serve in the army. There could hardly be a starker contrast in values.
But besides for highlighting this distinction in value systems, the comment is very, very much mistaken for the following reason. When one tragically loses his life fighting for his country, he has achieved the ultimate accomplishment in the eyes of his people. This is why people are willing to risk their lives to fight- because even if they die, it's all worth it. Imagine if instead of fallen soldiers being respected, they would be spat upon. Nobody, NOBODY would join the army. When one loses his religion in service of a secular army he has....what? From the chareidi perspective, he has lost everything. Nobody would join the army under such circumstances.
This religious Zionist attitude towards losing religion itself explains chareidim's aversion to the their ideology and why they don't hold of the religious Zionist's army service as a good example to emulate.
This is where you and all the comments are so off-base. The fact that a chareidi bachur would come out of tzahal in 2024 and go off the derech is pure speculation and either: a) not going to happen, (see: hesder students who go back to yeshiva after service), b) the bachur was weak to begin with (nothing to do with tzahal), c) implies that dati l'umi parents do not care about their child's ruchnius ... so spare the rest of us the crying wolf about going off the derech. It's a shallow, easy straw man argument. the chareidi woman does not know enough about the army to make such a claim .... come up with something else or say the real reasons that chareidim do not want to fight (which I can understand)
I don't agree that hesder students prove anything, as I said there. There are huge differences in dati and chareidi ideology. That is obvious from Slifkin's posts and most of the comments (including the comment from YehudaP in the name of Eisenkot). Chareidim would find the dati ideology as expressed by them completely unacceptable. I have nothing more to add.
About c), there is no such implication, except to the extent that actual dati people, like the commenter I am responding to and Slifkin, pretty much say that explicitly.
This is the real reason why chareidim do not want to fight. You won't get a more real reason than this.
Indeed that is the real reason. Not torah protects or their gemoros (and babies) are bullets.
But I must take issue with another point. Chareidim all over the world happily interact in 'goyshe' offices,.with 'goyim' and with organisations and peoples with ideology that they find deeply unacceptable. Nobody bats and eyelid. So why should the army be any different? It's just another excuse to avoid risking their lives and getting off their backsides.
If the army would be run like an office (9-5 job, you can quit whenever you want, no expectation to adhere to a certain ideology, no requirement to sing patriotic secular songs), I'm sure they would have almost no problem with it. I get it. You think chareidim are just lazy and cowardly. But about this you are so deeply deluded, I believe there must be something deeply wrong with you, mentally. Get help.
Chareidim will not even open discussions about helping the army in a more office type role. So that argument doesn't wash either. And I know if chareidim moved into more officy type roles, they would still be acused of not risking their lives. But the point is your ideology argument is, like 'our gemoros are bullets' just an excuse. Again, charedi idiology must be pretty weak if working with chilonim so dangerous. All of the world pleny of orthodox Jews at all levels, work with 'goyim', young women (who are not all ugly and do not follow Lakewood tzniys standards), gays, the lot. They travel on public transport. Do they lose their idilology? Or is just ok when making money is involved?
And of course anyone that resorts to insults like you do, shows he is on the back-foot here. Winning, self-confident people don't need to insult.
PS Bandana now wasting time reviewing all my comments to show where I may have offered the odd insult......
It's the holier than thou attitude ("unacceptable") you are attributing to chareidim that is causing a lot of agmas nefesh and non-chareidim wanting them to take achrayus.
The attitude that you are calling "holier than thou" (but that's really a misdiagnosis) is a fundamental of chareidi identity. You will sooner get them to accept gay weddings than you will get them to change that. Once the non-chareidim realize this, this should help the agmas nefesh dissipate. They are trying to strip chareidim of their deepest identity, and then feeling agmas nefesh that chareidim are not agreeing to it. Isn't that absurd?
"I believe this is a very important comment, and highlights what is probably the biggest difference between the chareidi value system and the religious Zionist value system."
You've lost the plot. The woman was clueless about the possibility that her son, if he would serve, would not come back alive. She was disconnected from that reality and Eisenkot corrected her.
Where do you see "the woman was clueless about the possibility that her son, if he would serve, would not come back alive"?? What is suggested is that this is what Eisenkot thought, because otherwise why would she bring up the minor (to his mind) issue of her son leaving observance, rather than the major issue of him dying? But in reality, she was well aware that people die in the army, but was concerned about the major issue of leaving observance.
Why is there this claim that charedi children will go off in the army? What is the evidence for this? Whys should they? It's just another feeble excuse. Maybe a small percentage will, but then again that small percentage may well go off anyway? Many charedi families in Israel have at least one child that has 'chosen a different path'.
If enough chareidim joined the army, even assuming there is a risk there is would be further reduced. Besides chareidim will not even think about assisting in non-combat roles. What is the excuse for that?
What's the evidence it's just another feeble excuse? What's the evidence that it's just a small percentage? What's the evidence that if enough chareidim joined the army, even assuming there is a risk there is would be further reduced? Oh, you don't need evidence for all that? You get to say whatever you want evidence-free?
"The woman said something to the effect, "We're afraid to send our children to the army, because it might influence them that they won't come back as observant Jews.""
Onus probandi actori incumbit.
Oh, and it doesn't say much for the charedi method of chinuch, if they are so frightened that their kids will go off in the army.
I don't think your assertions are correct. We don't think our caution is excessive at all. With all due respect, we don't agree with Rabbi Teichtal. We would like a solution, but so far nobody has come up with a good one yet.
"They have no interest in anyone checking the yeshivos to see who is really learning. They have no interest in developing charedi-appropriate army frameworks for such boys."
Obviously. Proof of the pudding: They maintain "dropout yeshivot"- funded by the taxpayer!- specifically so that "boys" that aren't learning can be kept on the rolls, out of uniform, and on the dole.
"One can imagine what Rav Yosef, or his apologists, would respond. They would say that they are not, chas v’shalom, negating the hesder path, but rather they are saying that Israel also needs people who learn undisturbed forever. But why? Do the years of dedication to learning Torah by Amitai and countless others like him, coupled with their mesirat nefesh, not provide sufficient merit for the Jewish People to deserve protection?! Once you claim that endless tens of thousands of permanent yeshiva students are all necessary to provide protection, with no limits as to how many people can choose that path, you are saying that the hesder path does not provide as much protection, and those who take it are making a mistake with harmful repercussions."
Obviously, because Rav Yosef holds that hesder is not the optimal path. It is still a good path, and maybe better for certain people, but not as good as the full-time yeshiva path. There is a concept in life that some things may be good, and some things may be better. This is not hard to understand. The hesder path is good to a certain extent, but the full-time yeshiva path is better.
"It’s the ultimate cruel insult to parents whose children dedicate themselves to both Torah and the Jewish People. It’s a chilul Hashem of the highest order."
That's just nuts. It's not an insult at all. His son died al Kiddush Hashem. Just because we disagree with his hashkafos doesn't mean we are insulting him or his son. Your statement is flat-out insane. Get help.
"It’s a perversion of Torah, which is fundamentally about chesed and societal responsibility. And it’s a recipe for national catastrophe.""
When we are interested in following your secular, Reform-Judaism version of Torah, we will tell you.
Hesder and all its Roshei Yeshiva say the exact same thing which you described as secular and Reform-like. They all say that Torah is fundamentally about chesed and societal responsibility.
Yeah, sounds pretty Reform. Checks out with "Avraham"s description in response to "Joel" below. And you expect chareidim to emulate Reform Judaism? Are you absolutely insane?
your view of yiddishkeit is a real perversion of Jewish belief. your view of Torah is a double perversion of the real Torah and that includes all your lilliputtian gedolim.
Who says it is a "better path"? Maybe for the future Gedolei HaDor, sure. But the guys just sitting for the sake of sitting it is surely not, as compared to militarily, academically and spiritually dedicated hesder guys. That is what is being lost here. It's about the individual guys, not just the respective systems they are in.
But this is the problem: making things political means that we are enemies, not friends. The I would like to see this conversation go is that we each acknowledge the *strengths* of the opposing community. The Chareidi world has some seriously needed fixing. The fact that *elite* became the cultural *norm* and you are *less* if you don't follow those norms, not *more* if you are priveleged enough to live such a lifestyle has led to a number of problems, including a general sense of entitlement (antithetical to the torah) and looking down on those who don't follow these norms. It's become a *given* to learn and therefore shameful not to, even though it's only acceptable to learn if you appreciate your priveleged you are. And when the elite becomes the society "no one is special" and basic human gratitude and courteously ends up being taken for granted. This needs to be acknowledged. Living life as a taker because you are learning is a highly esteemed privilege.
But the other side also needs to acknowledge that we are trying to keep our values on check, where those priveleged enough actually appreciate their value and do their thing. Torah and yiraas Shamayim are the *highest* priorities in Jewish life and they are not so easy to find today outside is the BM. We can't lose that appreciation which is, with all the problems, given over way better in the Chareidi world. We need to acknowledge these facts as well. Instead, we find each side hyping up their community and bashing the chesronos of the other. No one will be the wiser.
The ones that focus solely on these matters (unfortunately sometimes to the detriment of other ideals)
Like the Rambam and many many others say over and over again, these investments (of mastering the torah and growing in yiraas Shamayim) take *full time attention*.
You so completely miss the point of his passionate speech, and in quite an offensive and cruel manner. He didn't lose a child. His son wasn't ill or run over in an accident. Amittai died protecting the nation - all of the nation, not just his sector.
None really. Unfortunately many dont see their halachik observance as integral to their Jewish identity. Its enough to them to live in Israel, believe in Hashem, and live the story of their people.
I think it might be an issue in that I would imagine that many people would respond that their goal for their children is to be the bes teved hashem they can be. For example, is it better for a parent to have a disengaged child who pay slip service to their parent's Yeshivish approach, or one who is deeply engaged with a somewhat chassidish approach. Might be a child who could stay in learning full-time, but felt the need to give back to the community as a whole (e.g. through the army, or some other service) fall into a similar category. If one could maximize the probability by not joining in the pain of klal yisrael, is that preferred? bsorot tovot
Chareidim think that their way *is* the best way to be an eved Hashem, shortcomings non withstanding. They truly don't want their kids to pay lip service, Rl. They want to instill the proper values with geshmake and pride!
Closing down Yeshivos, changing their character, or bringing new ideals to the lifestyle of a young man is Dinei Nefashos, and should not be dealt with frivolously, or decided by people who do not have a background in Torah, including all 48 Kinyanei Hatorah.
Those zoologists, tollbooth operators, rocket scientists, and high school janitors who think their opinion should count in this topic are no different to the ladies from Monsey who offer up opinions and pamphlets against vaccinations, based on their Google activity.
He he. Good chapp. But seriously, there are hesder bachurim making the ultimate sacrifice (not just the ones that die al kiddush hashem) and chareidi bachurim are not yet doing so. and no one is asking chareidi bachurim to change their lifestyle, just to join acheinu beis yisrael in national defense and service for a year or two.
"Closing down yeshivos" - Man D'Kar Shmei? Go to any great Hesder yeshiva and see if it feels shut down because some of the guys are temporarily in tzahal defending am yisrael.
Ah ok, so only a Rosh Yeshiva can opine on these matters . Good to know that even learned non-Gedolim should not have a say in anything relevant to topics close to home.
But have it your way. Apparently some of the chareidi Roshei Yeshivos are talking about tzahal service so that is a good sign.
Wow. Just watched the whole drasha from Rab Granot. Balanced, articulate, respectful, demanding....many other things..wrapped up in one amazing package...spoken from the heart
I think it's a מצוה לפרסם in all newspapers, charedi or not. If I had the time or skills I would translate to English and submit it .
So you heard how he accurately quoted the Charedi position and disproved it? Or merely expressed his own opinion without any option for dissent?
Because I heard one side and one side only. The State is for all of us, and we all have to take part. No place for those who don't accept the State as ours.
I don't know where I get this from but my hunch is that the average Hesder/mizrachi learner is more committed and serious about his learning than the average Charedi learner. I went through the charedi yeshivos and the amount of batoloh, coffee breaks, mucking around (not to mention averos chamuros, ודי לחכימא), that occurs with a lot of boys, as they kill time til shiduchim, was fairly widespread. In general, normative charedi yeshivish lifestyle is often very shallow, davening learning middos and yiras shamayim just a facade where the ikkar is social standing and money. Ive always felt the mizrachi were far more sincere about their yiddishket. Small kipppot and girlfriend notwithstanding.
To whatever extent what you say is accurate, it is because almost every single Charedi boy goes to Yeshiva - which (after HS) is not the case by the Nat. Religious. It is comparing the elite with the general population.
That's the old dilemma. Chareidi ritual and routine, however shallow, can be better transmitted to the next generation. Even without understanding, sincerity and even if most of it is externals, walking the walk and talking the talk.
Inspiration and dedication, is much harder to transmit to the next generation. Some kids will have it, some won't but its not something that can be taught. So you can have a very observant, very dedicated and very inspirational modox couple, but without the obsession with ritual (shacharis b'yechidus is not so terrible) typical of the chareidi world, it may not transmit so easily to their kids.
Mechanchim grapple with this dilemma. Do we prefer shallow thoughtless ritual (chassidish boys/men must batel a Friday night at a tisch, swaying and schockling watching the Rebbe eat fish, obsession with minyan means davening post zeman at 11.30am with a minyan is preferred over davening 30 minutes b'yechidus at the right time and going back to bed), or focus on less ritualistic way of action but more understanding. A relatively small number of chareidim can manage both.
Summary: Rav Sherky affirms that the Charedi exemption in against הלכה, but that nevertheless a halachic dispute is not an excuse for demagoguery & negating the Charedi community.
You left out an important part. Rav Sherky said that the campaign against the charedim is political in nature and that he doughts that Tzahal intends to draft the charedim.
You know, you'd think the fine bnei torah who troll on this site would have looked at that photo and thought, "You know, maybe I *don't* have to comment on this blog with all my usual 'clever' remarks. Maybe this isn't the place."
And no bigger troll than faux secular sabra Nahum (all the Israelis laugh at him every time he pulls out his little patriotic israeli flag and starts belting out hatikva as authentically as a Texas cowboy, all proud of himself).
You know, you'd think the fine rationalists who troll on this site would have looked at that photo and thought, "You know, maybe I *don't* have to use this opportunity to attack my favorite enemies. Maybe this isn't the place?"
The linked English translation of Rav Yitzchak Sheilat’s Open Letter (https://cross-currents.com/2024/03/11/20704/) has a lot of mistakes and inaccuracies. ChatGPT4 overall gives a better translation.
For example:
>"the guardians of the Torah" - better translated as " holders of the Torah" (תופשי התורה)
>" the Gilyon commentary there cites the Aruch" - better translated as " the gloss there cites the Aruch" ( ומובא שם בגיליון בשם ה'ערוך)
>"the Panim Me’irot explains: - should be: " the Pnei Moshe explaines (ופירש הפנ"מ: "אפילו רבן בן רבן יצא)
It might make more sense in English, but it's not a good translation. A better translation, that also makes sense in English, would be "those who embrace the Torah"
There's a decent chance that Zionism will collapse and Gaza war will be seen 50 years from now as one of modernity's major crimes against humanity. If that happens, you'll be glad that Charedim not serving in the army give the Jewish people some plausible deniability about being complicit in the the whole thing. Even if that doesn't happen, though, the truth is that Kookian Religious Zionism (which is 90% of religious Zionism) is legitimately an absolutely crazy belief system that is also clearly very different from historical Judaism. If Zionism does stabilise and endure, it will be in part because it found some way to get rid of Religious Zionism. I don't see the purpose of a 'Rationalist' trying to emotionally blackmail Charedim into believing in this deadend lunatic ideology.
Here is my question to those who accept the view that Torah study should exempt people from a milchemet mitzvah, because the Torah study protects us: The Halakhah requires a bride and groom to leave the chupa to fight in a milchemet mitzvah. If Torah study outweighs the mitzvah to fight, and the mitzvah to fight outweighs getting married, then Torah study during a milchemet mitzvah must, logically, also outweigh the mitzvah to get married (if A>B and B>C, then A>C). So my question is, how many chareidi weddings have been postponed due to the overriding, life-saving, nation-saving demand to study Torah during this time? Have any? I know of numerous weddings of fighting soldiers that have been postponed in the this way.
For charedim who claim that Bnei Yeshiva get a Levite exemption, I wonder how they explain why Shevet Yissacher had to serve in the army.
That was already answered by Rav Ahron Kotler. He was preceded by the כתב סופר quoting his father the חתם סופר who said essentially the same thing:
א״כ למה הקדים ארון לשולחן? ונ״ל ליישב דיש שני מיני ת״ח דצדיק גמור כמו ר׳ חנינא בן דוסא לא צריך למחזיק כי כל העולם ניזון בשבילו והוא מוקדם בוודאי לכל סוחרי הארץ. וא״צ להם והם צריכים לזכותו. אבל מי שלא בא למדרגה זו הוא צריך לזבולון שיפרנסו, וזבולון המחזיק קודם לו. ומעתה א״ש ארון הקדש שבו הלוחות מונחים ועמד בקדשי קדשים מרמז על ת״ח כרחב״ד שהוא קודש קדשים ואינו נהנה מעוה״ז די לו בקב חרובים זה מוקדם לכל שולחן ולמנורה. אבל מנורה מרמז על ת״ח שאינו במדרג הזו ולא נכנס עדיין לפני ולפנים וצריך להמחזיק השולחן קודם לו כנ״ל נכון וק״ל)
(כתב סופר על פרשת תרומה)
To summarize: Bnei Yeshiva who are supported by others are not in the category of שבט לוי as defined by the רמב"ם, they are categorized as שבט יששכר and have to serve. (And that may even be in a מלחמת רשות.)
Or Shevet Levi. :-)
Certainly many kohanim and Leviim serve today. I guess that's an example of taking a drash so far you lose sight of the original meaning.
What makes you think Shevet Yissacher were Bnei Yeshiva?
I don't think that they were. But many Charedim seem to think so.
Oh boy, what are "many chareidim" going to do now? Slifkin the lamdan has them in a chokehold. They'll never recover from this.
Bnei Yeshiva must serve! THe army is kosher! There is no excuse!
My daughter told me about a conversation between a Charedi woman and Gadi Eisenkot. The woman said something to the effect, "We're afraid to send our children to the army, because it might influence them that they won't come back as observant Jews."
Gadi Eisenkot responded: "I just lost a son in Gaza. You're concerned that your son might not come back as an observant Jew. Other mothers are concerned that their son might not come back at all."
Thank you for bringing Eisenkot's comment. I believe this is a very important comment, and highlights what is probably the biggest difference between the chareidi value system and the religious Zionist value system. For chareidim, the Torah is life itself. The prospect of their children going off the derech (assuming they don't come back) is worse than their children losing their lives. For religious Zionists, it seems their children going off the derech is not such a big deal, as long as they are loyal citizens of Israel and serve in the army. There could hardly be a starker contrast in values.
But besides for highlighting this distinction in value systems, the comment is very, very much mistaken for the following reason. When one tragically loses his life fighting for his country, he has achieved the ultimate accomplishment in the eyes of his people. This is why people are willing to risk their lives to fight- because even if they die, it's all worth it. Imagine if instead of fallen soldiers being respected, they would be spat upon. Nobody, NOBODY would join the army. When one loses his religion in service of a secular army he has....what? From the chareidi perspective, he has lost everything. Nobody would join the army under such circumstances.
This religious Zionist attitude towards losing religion itself explains chareidim's aversion to the their ideology and why they don't hold of the religious Zionist's army service as a good example to emulate.
This is where you and all the comments are so off-base. The fact that a chareidi bachur would come out of tzahal in 2024 and go off the derech is pure speculation and either: a) not going to happen, (see: hesder students who go back to yeshiva after service), b) the bachur was weak to begin with (nothing to do with tzahal), c) implies that dati l'umi parents do not care about their child's ruchnius ... so spare the rest of us the crying wolf about going off the derech. It's a shallow, easy straw man argument. the chareidi woman does not know enough about the army to make such a claim .... come up with something else or say the real reasons that chareidim do not want to fight (which I can understand)
Oh, we already had this discussion https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/is-there-a-different-genocide-facing/comment/51509610
I don't agree that hesder students prove anything, as I said there. There are huge differences in dati and chareidi ideology. That is obvious from Slifkin's posts and most of the comments (including the comment from YehudaP in the name of Eisenkot). Chareidim would find the dati ideology as expressed by them completely unacceptable. I have nothing more to add.
About c), there is no such implication, except to the extent that actual dati people, like the commenter I am responding to and Slifkin, pretty much say that explicitly.
This is the real reason why chareidim do not want to fight. You won't get a more real reason than this.
Indeed that is the real reason. Not torah protects or their gemoros (and babies) are bullets.
But I must take issue with another point. Chareidim all over the world happily interact in 'goyshe' offices,.with 'goyim' and with organisations and peoples with ideology that they find deeply unacceptable. Nobody bats and eyelid. So why should the army be any different? It's just another excuse to avoid risking their lives and getting off their backsides.
If the army would be run like an office (9-5 job, you can quit whenever you want, no expectation to adhere to a certain ideology, no requirement to sing patriotic secular songs), I'm sure they would have almost no problem with it. I get it. You think chareidim are just lazy and cowardly. But about this you are so deeply deluded, I believe there must be something deeply wrong with you, mentally. Get help.
Chareidim will not even open discussions about helping the army in a more office type role. So that argument doesn't wash either. And I know if chareidim moved into more officy type roles, they would still be acused of not risking their lives. But the point is your ideology argument is, like 'our gemoros are bullets' just an excuse. Again, charedi idiology must be pretty weak if working with chilonim so dangerous. All of the world pleny of orthodox Jews at all levels, work with 'goyim', young women (who are not all ugly and do not follow Lakewood tzniys standards), gays, the lot. They travel on public transport. Do they lose their idilology? Or is just ok when making money is involved?
And of course anyone that resorts to insults like you do, shows he is on the back-foot here. Winning, self-confident people don't need to insult.
PS Bandana now wasting time reviewing all my comments to show where I may have offered the odd insult......
It's the holier than thou attitude ("unacceptable") you are attributing to chareidim that is causing a lot of agmas nefesh and non-chareidim wanting them to take achrayus.
The attitude that you are calling "holier than thou" (but that's really a misdiagnosis) is a fundamental of chareidi identity. You will sooner get them to accept gay weddings than you will get them to change that. Once the non-chareidim realize this, this should help the agmas nefesh dissipate. They are trying to strip chareidim of their deepest identity, and then feeling agmas nefesh that chareidim are not agreeing to it. Isn't that absurd?
No it's not, because no one is "stripping" anyone of anything, by asking for help in a milchemes mitzva. But let's just leave it here for now.
"I believe this is a very important comment, and highlights what is probably the biggest difference between the chareidi value system and the religious Zionist value system."
You've lost the plot. The woman was clueless about the possibility that her son, if he would serve, would not come back alive. She was disconnected from that reality and Eisenkot corrected her.
(Though, did this conversation really happen?)
Where do you see "the woman was clueless about the possibility that her son, if he would serve, would not come back alive"?? What is suggested is that this is what Eisenkot thought, because otherwise why would she bring up the minor (to his mind) issue of her son leaving observance, rather than the major issue of him dying? But in reality, she was well aware that people die in the army, but was concerned about the major issue of leaving observance.
Why is there this claim that charedi children will go off in the army? What is the evidence for this? Whys should they? It's just another feeble excuse. Maybe a small percentage will, but then again that small percentage may well go off anyway? Many charedi families in Israel have at least one child that has 'chosen a different path'.
If enough chareidim joined the army, even assuming there is a risk there is would be further reduced. Besides chareidim will not even think about assisting in non-combat roles. What is the excuse for that?
What's the evidence it's just another feeble excuse? What's the evidence that it's just a small percentage? What's the evidence that if enough chareidim joined the army, even assuming there is a risk there is would be further reduced? Oh, you don't need evidence for all that? You get to say whatever you want evidence-free?
"The woman said something to the effect, "We're afraid to send our children to the army, because it might influence them that they won't come back as observant Jews.""
Onus probandi actori incumbit.
Oh, and it doesn't say much for the charedi method of chinuch, if they are so frightened that their kids will go off in the army.
"Onus probandi actori incumbit."
Accusator est qui postulat ut chareidim militarent.
"Oh, and it doesn't say much for the charedi method of chinuch, if they are so frightened that their kids will go off in the army."
Hoc stultus non-sequitur et claudicatio. Non est utilis exercitus si chareidim eget.
I don't think your assertions are correct. We don't think our caution is excessive at all. With all due respect, we don't agree with Rabbi Teichtal. We would like a solution, but so far nobody has come up with a good one yet.
The latest post has been fixed to allow comments from everyone.
"They have no interest in anyone checking the yeshivos to see who is really learning. They have no interest in developing charedi-appropriate army frameworks for such boys."
Obviously. Proof of the pudding: They maintain "dropout yeshivot"- funded by the taxpayer!- specifically so that "boys" that aren't learning can be kept on the rolls, out of uniform, and on the dole.
"One can imagine what Rav Yosef, or his apologists, would respond. They would say that they are not, chas v’shalom, negating the hesder path, but rather they are saying that Israel also needs people who learn undisturbed forever. But why? Do the years of dedication to learning Torah by Amitai and countless others like him, coupled with their mesirat nefesh, not provide sufficient merit for the Jewish People to deserve protection?! Once you claim that endless tens of thousands of permanent yeshiva students are all necessary to provide protection, with no limits as to how many people can choose that path, you are saying that the hesder path does not provide as much protection, and those who take it are making a mistake with harmful repercussions."
Obviously, because Rav Yosef holds that hesder is not the optimal path. It is still a good path, and maybe better for certain people, but not as good as the full-time yeshiva path. There is a concept in life that some things may be good, and some things may be better. This is not hard to understand. The hesder path is good to a certain extent, but the full-time yeshiva path is better.
"It’s the ultimate cruel insult to parents whose children dedicate themselves to both Torah and the Jewish People. It’s a chilul Hashem of the highest order."
That's just nuts. It's not an insult at all. His son died al Kiddush Hashem. Just because we disagree with his hashkafos doesn't mean we are insulting him or his son. Your statement is flat-out insane. Get help.
"It’s a perversion of Torah, which is fundamentally about chesed and societal responsibility. And it’s a recipe for national catastrophe.""
When we are interested in following your secular, Reform-Judaism version of Torah, we will tell you.
Hesder and all its Roshei Yeshiva are a secular, reform Judaism version of Torah?
Do all of hesder and all its Roshei Yeshiva espouse your secular, reform ideology? Then yes.
Hesder and all its Roshei Yeshiva say the exact same thing which you described as secular and Reform-like. They all say that Torah is fundamentally about chesed and societal responsibility.
Yeah, sounds pretty Reform. Checks out with "Avraham"s description in response to "Joel" below. And you expect chareidim to emulate Reform Judaism? Are you absolutely insane?
your view of yiddishkeit is a real perversion of Jewish belief. your view of Torah is a double perversion of the real Torah and that includes all your lilliputtian gedolim.
Who says it is a "better path"? Maybe for the future Gedolei HaDor, sure. But the guys just sitting for the sake of sitting it is surely not, as compared to militarily, academically and spiritually dedicated hesder guys. That is what is being lost here. It's about the individual guys, not just the respective systems they are in.
Obviously, Haredim disagree with religious Zionism. Pulling emotional strings about tragically losing a child does nothing to change those facts.
There are logical and factual arguments alongside the emotional grievance.
Agreed but this article was wholly an appeal to emotion to make your opponents look bad.
They do look bad.
Agreed.
But this is the problem: making things political means that we are enemies, not friends. The I would like to see this conversation go is that we each acknowledge the *strengths* of the opposing community. The Chareidi world has some seriously needed fixing. The fact that *elite* became the cultural *norm* and you are *less* if you don't follow those norms, not *more* if you are priveleged enough to live such a lifestyle has led to a number of problems, including a general sense of entitlement (antithetical to the torah) and looking down on those who don't follow these norms. It's become a *given* to learn and therefore shameful not to, even though it's only acceptable to learn if you appreciate your priveleged you are. And when the elite becomes the society "no one is special" and basic human gratitude and courteously ends up being taken for granted. This needs to be acknowledged. Living life as a taker because you are learning is a highly esteemed privilege.
But the other side also needs to acknowledge that we are trying to keep our values on check, where those priveleged enough actually appreciate their value and do their thing. Torah and yiraas Shamayim are the *highest* priorities in Jewish life and they are not so easy to find today outside is the BM. We can't lose that appreciation which is, with all the problems, given over way better in the Chareidi world. We need to acknowledge these facts as well. Instead, we find each side hyping up their community and bashing the chesronos of the other. No one will be the wiser.
"they are not so easy to find today outside is the BM."
Nonsense. The State of Israel is full of people with Torah and Yirat Shamayim who don't wear black hats.
BH that is so true! But by definition it is not even close to the scale that can be reached by those who fully engross themselves in these matters.
"Torah and yiraas Shamayim are the *highest* priorities in Jewish life and they are not so easy to find today outside is the BM"
That doesn't put 50% of Chareidiland in a particulary good light. But let them read Ami, Mishpacha and Binoh magazine.
" Torah and yiraas Shamayim are the *highest* priorities in Jewish life and they are not so easy to find today outside is the BM"
But whose BM? And who defines how those highest priorities manifest? There lies the rub.
I passionately agree with your last sentence.
The ones that focus solely on these matters (unfortunately sometimes to the detriment of other ideals)
Like the Rambam and many many others say over and over again, these investments (of mastering the torah and growing in yiraas Shamayim) take *full time attention*.
You so completely miss the point of his passionate speech, and in quite an offensive and cruel manner. He didn't lose a child. His son wasn't ill or run over in an accident. Amittai died protecting the nation - all of the nation, not just his sector.
In what way did he miss that?
From Rabbi Slifkin's comments on facebook, this eloquent poem:
"Rav Granot is a true Rav, a true Spiritual leader, and a true example of truth and justice.
It is a wish of mine to shake the hand of Rav Granot one day.
The soul of Rav Granot's son has a higher place in heaven than any Charedi I know. Probably higher than any Charedi alive.
There is no Charedi alive that I know, that reaches the Spiritual level of Rav Granot and his Wife and their son, the holy sacrifice.
The Religious-Nationalist community is the most noble, most valuable and most honorable community of all of the Jewish Nation.
Both the spiritual pillar and the security pillar of the Nation.
They do just about everything right.
The true Jewish Patriots.
Charedi leaders are the most disgraceful of the Nation.
I do not know how they sleep at night."
Huh? I didn't write that
He is trying to satirize.
Maybe he meant comments responding to you?
Very mean thing to say! This is not how you get them on our side. But chareidim must serve!
They didn't "tragically lose their child" of natural causes or a random car accident.
Their son, who apparently took his Judaism and learning very seriously, died fighting in a war so all of us can continue to live here.
That gives his parents the moral right to express an opinion about the CR's very unfortunate statement.
User
is it likely a child being a chareidi is the most important thing to a chareidi parent
ChatGPT
For many Chareidi parents, raising their child within the framework of Chareidi beliefs and practices is indeed a top priority.
I think this may be part of the issue
Bsorot tovot
For "Dati leumi" people raising their children in the framework of "Dati Leumi" beliefs is also a top propriety.
And I think that applies to every segment of society. This comment makes no sense.
So are you saying that dati leumi people would rather their child go OTD rather than become yeshivish or chadish? Bsorot tovot
I learned in a hesder yeshiva. Yes, many of my friends would rather their child be an OTD officer than an avrech in bnei brak.
If that is representative, then I stand corrected. What is the halachic argument for preferring OTD? Bsorot tovot
None really. Unfortunately many dont see their halachik observance as integral to their Jewish identity. Its enough to them to live in Israel, believe in Hashem, and live the story of their people.
What!?
Of course chareidim would rather their child serve than go off the derech.
Why would you assume it to be different
Then chareidim must serve!
Why is this at all relevant to what I was pointing out?
What the heck is the issue with that?
Anyone who has values and priorities wants their kids to learn their way to a better life (and thereafter)!
Amen to the beracha!
I think it might be an issue in that I would imagine that many people would respond that their goal for their children is to be the bes teved hashem they can be. For example, is it better for a parent to have a disengaged child who pay slip service to their parent's Yeshivish approach, or one who is deeply engaged with a somewhat chassidish approach. Might be a child who could stay in learning full-time, but felt the need to give back to the community as a whole (e.g. through the army, or some other service) fall into a similar category. If one could maximize the probability by not joining in the pain of klal yisrael, is that preferred? bsorot tovot
Chareidim think that their way *is* the best way to be an eved Hashem, shortcomings non withstanding. They truly don't want their kids to pay lip service, Rl. They want to instill the proper values with geshmake and pride!
Otherwise I agree to the rest of your points.
My side is the correct one, and anyone who disagrees is disgraceful.
Look at those disgraceful people, not only are they disgraceful, they also have the gall to have a different opinion to me.
And they even have the spineless attitude that they should live according to their opinions, and not kowtow to mine.
How dare they?!
straw-man. we are dealing with dinei nefashos, not baseball teams or nusachim in tefila.
I fully agree.
Closing down Yeshivos, changing their character, or bringing new ideals to the lifestyle of a young man is Dinei Nefashos, and should not be dealt with frivolously, or decided by people who do not have a background in Torah, including all 48 Kinyanei Hatorah.
Those zoologists, tollbooth operators, rocket scientists, and high school janitors who think their opinion should count in this topic are no different to the ladies from Monsey who offer up opinions and pamphlets against vaccinations, based on their Google activity.
He he. Good chapp. But seriously, there are hesder bachurim making the ultimate sacrifice (not just the ones that die al kiddush hashem) and chareidi bachurim are not yet doing so. and no one is asking chareidi bachurim to change their lifestyle, just to join acheinu beis yisrael in national defense and service for a year or two.
"Closing down yeshivos" - Man D'Kar Shmei? Go to any great Hesder yeshiva and see if it feels shut down because some of the guys are temporarily in tzahal defending am yisrael.
Ah ok, so only a Rosh Yeshiva can opine on these matters . Good to know that even learned non-Gedolim should not have a say in anything relevant to topics close to home.
But have it your way. Apparently some of the chareidi Roshei Yeshivos are talking about tzahal service so that is a good sign.
Wow. Just watched the whole drasha from Rab Granot. Balanced, articulate, respectful, demanding....many other things..wrapped up in one amazing package...spoken from the heart
I think it's a מצוה לפרסם in all newspapers, charedi or not. If I had the time or skills I would translate to English and submit it .
Balanced?
So you heard how he accurately quoted the Charedi position and disproved it? Or merely expressed his own opinion without any option for dissent?
Because I heard one side and one side only. The State is for all of us, and we all have to take part. No place for those who don't accept the State as ours.
I don't know where I get this from but my hunch is that the average Hesder/mizrachi learner is more committed and serious about his learning than the average Charedi learner. I went through the charedi yeshivos and the amount of batoloh, coffee breaks, mucking around (not to mention averos chamuros, ודי לחכימא), that occurs with a lot of boys, as they kill time til shiduchim, was fairly widespread. In general, normative charedi yeshivish lifestyle is often very shallow, davening learning middos and yiras shamayim just a facade where the ikkar is social standing and money. Ive always felt the mizrachi were far more sincere about their yiddishket. Small kipppot and girlfriend notwithstanding.
To whatever extent what you say is accurate, it is because almost every single Charedi boy goes to Yeshiva - which (after HS) is not the case by the Nat. Religious. It is comparing the elite with the general population.
I'm not entirely clear what your point is.
That's the old dilemma. Chareidi ritual and routine, however shallow, can be better transmitted to the next generation. Even without understanding, sincerity and even if most of it is externals, walking the walk and talking the talk.
Inspiration and dedication, is much harder to transmit to the next generation. Some kids will have it, some won't but its not something that can be taught. So you can have a very observant, very dedicated and very inspirational modox couple, but without the obsession with ritual (shacharis b'yechidus is not so terrible) typical of the chareidi world, it may not transmit so easily to their kids.
Mechanchim grapple with this dilemma. Do we prefer shallow thoughtless ritual (chassidish boys/men must batel a Friday night at a tisch, swaying and schockling watching the Rebbe eat fish, obsession with minyan means davening post zeman at 11.30am with a minyan is preferred over davening 30 minutes b'yechidus at the right time and going back to bed), or focus on less ritualistic way of action but more understanding. A relatively small number of chareidim can manage both.
Here is Rav Uri Sharky answering the question about drafting the charedim.
https://youtube.com/shorts/9wDqUwbJibM?si=tGeOl8fWN2dfN45l
Slifkin is just a מסית ומדיח as usual.
Summary: Rav Sherky affirms that the Charedi exemption in against הלכה, but that nevertheless a halachic dispute is not an excuse for demagoguery & negating the Charedi community.
It's not a halachic dispute. Charedim don't avoid army because of halacha; they avoid it because of ideology.
But Rav Sherki's point was such a dispute should not be the cause of negating an entire community.
And where does their ideology come from?
You left out an important part. Rav Sherky said that the campaign against the charedim is political in nature and that he doughts that Tzahal intends to draft the charedim.
Maybe I did. But you should summarize what you link.
First of all thank you for taking the time and energy to write this. It hurts a lot, but it's backed by logic and needs to be said. Seccond, things are moving very quickly. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2268999/historic-changes-for-the-1st-time-gedolim-agree-to-quotas-targets-for-new-draft-law.html
I wonder if they will actually check the beis medresh now to see who is really learning. But if they do, it is a step in the right direction.
"Any bochur who wishes to learn full-time will still be exempt from the draft."
That's the only important line in the whole piece, which in turn makes the whole piece meaningless.
1. *Everyone* will say they want to learn full-time.
2. Pity the poor people not born into the right community who don't have that option. (Not that they want it.)
I say let them go
Maybe North Korea is a good place
You know, you'd think the fine bnei torah who troll on this site would have looked at that photo and thought, "You know, maybe I *don't* have to comment on this blog with all my usual 'clever' remarks. Maybe this isn't the place."
But trolls have no middot.
You realize that this blog is just one big trolling game, don't you?
Trolls can't complain when they get trolled
And no bigger troll than faux secular sabra Nahum (all the Israelis laugh at him every time he pulls out his little patriotic israeli flag and starts belting out hatikva as authentically as a Texas cowboy, all proud of himself).
I spell my name Nachum, and Hatikva should be capitalized.
You know, you'd think the fine rationalists who troll on this site would have looked at that photo and thought, "You know, maybe I *don't* have to use this opportunity to attack my favorite enemies. Maybe this isn't the place?"
Yeah, here's another one.
Ooops!
https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2021/05/the-truth-becomes-clear-but-who-will.html
https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2021/05/the-horses-of-chelm.html
https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2021/05/denying-reality-of-physics.html
https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2021/05/foxholes-and-fatalists.html
Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands. Haven't cracked open a Gemara lately, I see.
So... you can say whatever you want and as long as you attach a tragedy to it, noone can respond?
Let me introduce you to a concept called "common decency."
So yes ?
The linked English translation of Rav Yitzchak Sheilat’s Open Letter (https://cross-currents.com/2024/03/11/20704/) has a lot of mistakes and inaccuracies. ChatGPT4 overall gives a better translation.
For example:
>"the guardians of the Torah" - better translated as " holders of the Torah" (תופשי התורה)
>" the Gilyon commentary there cites the Aruch" - better translated as " the gloss there cites the Aruch" ( ומובא שם בגיליון בשם ה'ערוך)
>"the Panim Me’irot explains: - should be: " the Pnei Moshe explaines (ופירש הפנ"מ: "אפילו רבן בן רבן יצא)
"Holders of the Torah" is a literal translation. "the guardians of the Torah" makes more sense in English. Agree with the others.
It might make more sense in English, but it's not a good translation. A better translation, that also makes sense in English, would be "those who embrace the Torah"
There's a decent chance that Zionism will collapse and Gaza war will be seen 50 years from now as one of modernity's major crimes against humanity. If that happens, you'll be glad that Charedim not serving in the army give the Jewish people some plausible deniability about being complicit in the the whole thing. Even if that doesn't happen, though, the truth is that Kookian Religious Zionism (which is 90% of religious Zionism) is legitimately an absolutely crazy belief system that is also clearly very different from historical Judaism. If Zionism does stabilise and endure, it will be in part because it found some way to get rid of Religious Zionism. I don't see the purpose of a 'Rationalist' trying to emotionally blackmail Charedim into believing in this deadend lunatic ideology.
Here is my question to those who accept the view that Torah study should exempt people from a milchemet mitzvah, because the Torah study protects us: The Halakhah requires a bride and groom to leave the chupa to fight in a milchemet mitzvah. If Torah study outweighs the mitzvah to fight, and the mitzvah to fight outweighs getting married, then Torah study during a milchemet mitzvah must, logically, also outweigh the mitzvah to get married (if A>B and B>C, then A>C). So my question is, how many chareidi weddings have been postponed due to the overriding, life-saving, nation-saving demand to study Torah during this time? Have any? I know of numerous weddings of fighting soldiers that have been postponed in the this way.
Looks like you don't understand the chareidi exemption at all. See my comments above.