I thought it was ironic that the threat from Haredim was to leave en masse, and on the flip side the secular Zionists flew back in droves to be called up in reserves after the terrorist attack.
The claim has been that Zionism has been shown to be “empty” and “עבודה זרה” and the falsity of “כחי ועצום ידי”; yet many of those who grew up in that system flew back from around the world to risk death and permanent injury for the land and other Jews. The Haredim threaten “We will die and not be drafted”(which the Arab enemies would love to see happen), and what they really mean is that we will run from Eretz Yisroel rather than defend it and other Jews.
My daughter told me about a conversation between a Charedi woman and Gadi Eisenkot. The woman said something to the effect, "We're afraid to send our children to the army, because it might influence them that they won't come back as observant Jews."
Gadi Eisenkot responded: "I just lost a son in Gaza. You're concerned that your son might not come back as an observant Jew. Other mothers are concerned that their son might not come back at all."
"One can imagine what Rav Yosef, or his apologists, would respond. They would say that they are not, chas v’shalom, negating the hesder path, but rather they are saying that Israel also needs people who learn undisturbed forever. But why? Do the years of dedication to learning Torah by Amitai and countless others like him, coupled with their mesirat nefesh, not provide sufficient merit for the Jewish People to deserve protection?! Once you claim that endless tens of thousands of permanent yeshiva students are all necessary to provide protection, with no limits as to how many people can choose that path, you are saying that the hesder path does not provide as much protection, and those who take it are making a mistake with harmful repercussions."
Obviously, because Rav Yosef holds that hesder is not the optimal path. It is still a good path, and maybe better for certain people, but not as good as the full-time yeshiva path. There is a concept in life that some things may be good, and some things may be better. This is not hard to understand. The hesder path is good to a certain extent, but the full-time yeshiva path is better.
"It’s the ultimate cruel insult to parents whose children dedicate themselves to both Torah and the Jewish People. It’s a chilul Hashem of the highest order."
That's just nuts. It's not an insult at all. His son died al Kiddush Hashem. Just because we disagree with his hashkafos doesn't mean we are insulting him or his son. Your statement is flat-out insane. Get help.
"It’s a perversion of Torah, which is fundamentally about chesed and societal responsibility. And it’s a recipe for national catastrophe.""
When we are interested in following your secular, Reform-Judaism version of Torah, we will tell you.
"They have no interest in anyone checking the yeshivos to see who is really learning. They have no interest in developing charedi-appropriate army frameworks for such boys."
Obviously. Proof of the pudding: They maintain "dropout yeshivot"- funded by the taxpayer!- specifically so that "boys" that aren't learning can be kept on the rolls, out of uniform, and on the dole.
Wow. Just watched the whole drasha from Rab Granot. Balanced, articulate, respectful, demanding....many other things..wrapped up in one amazing package...spoken from the heart
I think it's a מצוה לפרסם in all newspapers, charedi or not. If I had the time or skills I would translate to English and submit it .
I don't know where I get this from but my hunch is that the average Hesder/mizrachi learner is more committed and serious about his learning than the average Charedi learner. I went through the charedi yeshivos and the amount of batoloh, coffee breaks, mucking around (not to mention averos chamuros, ודי לחכימא), that occurs with a lot of boys, as they kill time til shiduchim, was fairly widespread. In general, normative charedi yeshivish lifestyle is often very shallow, davening learning middos and yiras shamayim just a facade where the ikkar is social standing and money. Ive always felt the mizrachi were far more sincere about their yiddishket. Small kipppot and girlfriend notwithstanding.
You know, you'd think the fine bnei torah who troll on this site would have looked at that photo and thought, "You know, maybe I *don't* have to comment on this blog with all my usual 'clever' remarks. Maybe this isn't the place."
The linked English translation of Rav Yitzchak Sheilat’s Open Letter (https://cross-currents.com/2024/03/11/20704/) has a lot of mistakes and inaccuracies. ChatGPT4 overall gives a better translation.
For example:
>"the guardians of the Torah" - better translated as " holders of the Torah" (תופשי התורה)
>" the Gilyon commentary there cites the Aruch" - better translated as " the gloss there cites the Aruch" ( ומובא שם בגיליון בשם ה'ערוך)
>"the Panim Me’irot explains: - should be: " the Pnei Moshe explaines (ופירש הפנ"מ: "אפילו רבן בן רבן יצא)
There's a decent chance that Zionism will collapse and Gaza war will be seen 50 years from now as one of modernity's major crimes against humanity. If that happens, you'll be glad that Charedim not serving in the army give the Jewish people some plausible deniability about being complicit in the the whole thing. Even if that doesn't happen, though, the truth is that Kookian Religious Zionism (which is 90% of religious Zionism) is legitimately an absolutely crazy belief system that is also clearly very different from historical Judaism. If Zionism does stabilise and endure, it will be in part because it found some way to get rid of Religious Zionism. I don't see the purpose of a 'Rationalist' trying to emotionally blackmail Charedim into believing in this deadend lunatic ideology.
For charedim who claim that Bnei Yeshiva get a Levite exemption, I wonder how they explain why Shevet Yissacher had to serve in the army.
I thought it was ironic that the threat from Haredim was to leave en masse, and on the flip side the secular Zionists flew back in droves to be called up in reserves after the terrorist attack.
The claim has been that Zionism has been shown to be “empty” and “עבודה זרה” and the falsity of “כחי ועצום ידי”; yet many of those who grew up in that system flew back from around the world to risk death and permanent injury for the land and other Jews. The Haredim threaten “We will die and not be drafted”(which the Arab enemies would love to see happen), and what they really mean is that we will run from Eretz Yisroel rather than defend it and other Jews.
My daughter told me about a conversation between a Charedi woman and Gadi Eisenkot. The woman said something to the effect, "We're afraid to send our children to the army, because it might influence them that they won't come back as observant Jews."
Gadi Eisenkot responded: "I just lost a son in Gaza. You're concerned that your son might not come back as an observant Jew. Other mothers are concerned that their son might not come back at all."
The latest post has been fixed to allow comments from everyone.
"One can imagine what Rav Yosef, or his apologists, would respond. They would say that they are not, chas v’shalom, negating the hesder path, but rather they are saying that Israel also needs people who learn undisturbed forever. But why? Do the years of dedication to learning Torah by Amitai and countless others like him, coupled with their mesirat nefesh, not provide sufficient merit for the Jewish People to deserve protection?! Once you claim that endless tens of thousands of permanent yeshiva students are all necessary to provide protection, with no limits as to how many people can choose that path, you are saying that the hesder path does not provide as much protection, and those who take it are making a mistake with harmful repercussions."
Obviously, because Rav Yosef holds that hesder is not the optimal path. It is still a good path, and maybe better for certain people, but not as good as the full-time yeshiva path. There is a concept in life that some things may be good, and some things may be better. This is not hard to understand. The hesder path is good to a certain extent, but the full-time yeshiva path is better.
"It’s the ultimate cruel insult to parents whose children dedicate themselves to both Torah and the Jewish People. It’s a chilul Hashem of the highest order."
That's just nuts. It's not an insult at all. His son died al Kiddush Hashem. Just because we disagree with his hashkafos doesn't mean we are insulting him or his son. Your statement is flat-out insane. Get help.
"It’s a perversion of Torah, which is fundamentally about chesed and societal responsibility. And it’s a recipe for national catastrophe.""
When we are interested in following your secular, Reform-Judaism version of Torah, we will tell you.
Obviously, Haredim disagree with religious Zionism. Pulling emotional strings about tragically losing a child does nothing to change those facts.
"They have no interest in anyone checking the yeshivos to see who is really learning. They have no interest in developing charedi-appropriate army frameworks for such boys."
Obviously. Proof of the pudding: They maintain "dropout yeshivot"- funded by the taxpayer!- specifically so that "boys" that aren't learning can be kept on the rolls, out of uniform, and on the dole.
My side is the correct one, and anyone who disagrees is disgraceful.
Look at those disgraceful people, not only are they disgraceful, they also have the gall to have a different opinion to me.
And they even have the spineless attitude that they should live according to their opinions, and not kowtow to mine.
How dare they?!
Wow. Just watched the whole drasha from Rab Granot. Balanced, articulate, respectful, demanding....many other things..wrapped up in one amazing package...spoken from the heart
I think it's a מצוה לפרסם in all newspapers, charedi or not. If I had the time or skills I would translate to English and submit it .
I don't know where I get this from but my hunch is that the average Hesder/mizrachi learner is more committed and serious about his learning than the average Charedi learner. I went through the charedi yeshivos and the amount of batoloh, coffee breaks, mucking around (not to mention averos chamuros, ודי לחכימא), that occurs with a lot of boys, as they kill time til shiduchim, was fairly widespread. In general, normative charedi yeshivish lifestyle is often very shallow, davening learning middos and yiras shamayim just a facade where the ikkar is social standing and money. Ive always felt the mizrachi were far more sincere about their yiddishket. Small kipppot and girlfriend notwithstanding.
Here is Rav Uri Sharky answering the question about drafting the charedim.
https://youtube.com/shorts/9wDqUwbJibM?si=tGeOl8fWN2dfN45l
Slifkin is just a מסית ומדיח as usual.
First of all thank you for taking the time and energy to write this. It hurts a lot, but it's backed by logic and needs to be said. Seccond, things are moving very quickly. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2268999/historic-changes-for-the-1st-time-gedolim-agree-to-quotas-targets-for-new-draft-law.html
I wonder if they will actually check the beis medresh now to see who is really learning. But if they do, it is a step in the right direction.
I say let them go
Maybe North Korea is a good place
You know, you'd think the fine bnei torah who troll on this site would have looked at that photo and thought, "You know, maybe I *don't* have to comment on this blog with all my usual 'clever' remarks. Maybe this isn't the place."
But trolls have no middot.
The linked English translation of Rav Yitzchak Sheilat’s Open Letter (https://cross-currents.com/2024/03/11/20704/) has a lot of mistakes and inaccuracies. ChatGPT4 overall gives a better translation.
For example:
>"the guardians of the Torah" - better translated as " holders of the Torah" (תופשי התורה)
>" the Gilyon commentary there cites the Aruch" - better translated as " the gloss there cites the Aruch" ( ומובא שם בגיליון בשם ה'ערוך)
>"the Panim Me’irot explains: - should be: " the Pnei Moshe explaines (ופירש הפנ"מ: "אפילו רבן בן רבן יצא)
There's a decent chance that Zionism will collapse and Gaza war will be seen 50 years from now as one of modernity's major crimes against humanity. If that happens, you'll be glad that Charedim not serving in the army give the Jewish people some plausible deniability about being complicit in the the whole thing. Even if that doesn't happen, though, the truth is that Kookian Religious Zionism (which is 90% of religious Zionism) is legitimately an absolutely crazy belief system that is also clearly very different from historical Judaism. If Zionism does stabilise and endure, it will be in part because it found some way to get rid of Religious Zionism. I don't see the purpose of a 'Rationalist' trying to emotionally blackmail Charedim into believing in this deadend lunatic ideology.