There's a former Satmar Chassid, R. Yissoschor Katz, whom I follow on Facebook. He's still religious, and quite learned, but just modern Orthodox in his values (sort of the process Rabbi Slifkin underwent, but just starting out Satmar instead of Litvish.)
He wrote in a recent post that, instead of writing why the Charedim should serve in the army, the burden of proof should be placed on them, to properly defend their position of why they feel all full-time Torah-studying Charedim should be exempt.
>"Time and again, we hear charedi voices claiming that it’s all about people hating charedim and wanting to erase Torah [...]
It’s just bizarre. Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion?"
This fits a very common pattern in culture war issues, where people ascribe hidden hatred to the other side, and assume that the explicit claims are in bad faith, and not the true reasons
"It’s just bizarre. Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion? Is it really so difficult to understand that when most of the country is living at a time of funerals and hospitalizations and hundreds of thousands of men being away from their families and jobs and risking their lives, and the IDF declares that there is still a manpower shortage and people will have to spend additional months and years in the army beyond what they already contribute, that people want change from a community that absolves itself of sharing any such responsibility (and moreover demands to be paid for it)?!'
I made this point previously, but it seems the less religious people are, the more obsessed they are with chareidim. The blog Irrationalist Modoxim has articles from a soldier who makes this very point and claims that the more Torahdike the community, the less this is an issue for them and the more they appreciate the contribution that chareidim actually make. The most obsessed are the seculars, who of course hate chareidi society and everything it stands for, even besides the army issue. This includes you Slifkin. As I pointed out, you are far more obsessed with hatred of chareidim than with hatred of Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinians, Lebanes, Egyptians, etc. This indicates that your hatred stems from deep religious guilt more than the alleged fact that chareidim are putting an additional burden on you.
"I think that I’ve covered most of the issues relating to this..." Ya think?
You should be very proud of yourself rabbi doctor! Fully covering one side of an issue! What an accomplishment!
Just remember folks, this is the same naar (fool) who thinks he's a bar plugta of Rashi, knows better than all the gedoei olam throughout the doros who unequivocally accepted the Zohar (again, he knows better than all of them), and doesn't understand why male masturbation is wrong.
But oh, we should take his word on this matter very strongly. *This time* he got it right!
They (and "they" includes Bibi) just thought that they could keep pushing it off. It even got pushed off (or, better, nothing got done about it) when Bennett and then Lapid were in charge. Maybe it just can't be pushed off any longer. We'll see.
"and that’s why ArtScroll will publish a book about the heroism of Hatzala medics"
Leaving aside the question of taste (publishing a book stressing "miracles" when so many were murdered- but then there are "miracle" books even about the Holocaust), let's be frank here: They also wouldn't publish a book about Magen David Adom. Hatzala is seen as "safe" because it is seen as not part of the "Zionist entity" and even "charedi". (In fact, Mada is also not a government body, Hatzala is also connected to the government as much as Mada is, and Hatzala is not, in fact, charedi- they even have Arab medics- but I am talking about public perception, especially among American Jews to whom "Hatzala" means something very specific.)
I'll take it a step further: There's a prominent family in my shul, Israelis and not charedim, who are very connected to Hatzala. A few years back "kochot habitachon" was added to the tefillah for Tzahal, to include I guess the Mossad and Police and so on. Fair enough, I suppose. Anyway, the members of this family have recently been adding more and more items to the tefillah, up to "anshei Hatzala." It was frankly getting a little ridiculous and political, but what really put it over the top for me was when they started adding "lomdei Torah" to the list.
Yeah, lomdei Torah really need protection from harm.
OK, so now what? It's the right thing for them to go, you have torah backing your argument (it's your interpritation and the gedolim will obvioulsy disagree), and the law will require it but guess what, fewer charedim will join as this will radecalize them even more. The approach is flawed and everyone knows it. You as an outsider cannot influence them and there is no leader amongst them who will stand up and demand change. This leads to the ONLY solution. $.
"My answer was that they don’t have a vision or plan or anything.... Plans, like laws, are for goyim."
No. They simply don't relate to the concept of plans. The widescale abandonment of ישוב ארץ ישראל and leaving it to the secular is one of the causes of our woes today. Plans are not somehow חוקות הגויים. Plans are complex and require in depth evaluation with a vision for generations beyond immediate expediency. And the consequences of deciding incorrectly can be enormous. Plans involve compromises, contingencies, risks and the inevitable choice between rock and a hard place when real world constraints roll in like a juggernaut. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.) So it's best to avoid making plans and trot out the good ol' reliable שב ועל תעשה. That way no wrong has actively been done, and there's the delectable fringe benefit of blaming someone else when all goes to pot.
What will UTJ do now? Well, that's going to take some planning.
Charedi insouciance about the fate of Israel is not merely a reluctance to plan ahead, but also a feeling that they could ultimately get by somewhere else.
You can lead a perfectly Charedi life in Lakewood, Kiryas Yoel, Antwerp, or Stamford Hill. Whether or not it would be feasible for hundreds of thousands of Charedim to move elsewhere is open to question, but if Israel did collapse, and its remaining Jewish residents faced the threat of imminent massacre, it is plausible that they would find refuge somewhere, just as many Syrian refugees did.
While Charedim are happy to live in Israel and to benefit from all the funding and other resources the state provides, they are mostly not invested in the success of the state, or the Zionist enterprise in general. They're invested in keeping the Charedi enterprise going, and that can be done elsewhere.
What the non-Charedi majority should do about this is another question, but recognising the basis of Charedi opposition to what Israeli non-Charedim consider fundamental civic duties is a start.
Regarding 2, yes there is no plan. Charedim oppose the idea of building a Jewish state in the land of Israel, or anywhere else, and therefore do not have a plan for how to make this state work. Maybe Charedim are wrong and building a country surrounded by hundreds of millions of incensed low IQ crazy people who want to murder you, being an international pariah state, and fighting wars for ever is actually a really good idea. But Charedim do not agree, and thus do not have to form a plan for how to make this thing work.
Interesting discussion in the comments. But, as the Shegetz mentioned, up until 6 months ago the plan was for a small, smart military force, the army service was shortened, there was a talk about Israel abolishing the draft and switching to a professional army and now suddenly there is a manpower crisis? What does it say about the leadership both civilian and military of the country? In my layman's opinion they have demonstrated their incompetence. The response since Oct. 7 was another failure. Drafting the charedim, which will not happen, will not solve the flaws of the Israeli political system. Can Israel succesfully deal with the current crisis? I don't think it can. Simon Peres' and Slifkin's 'The New Middle East' is upon us.
We should try talking in terminology familiar to the Haredim: "Loshon Hora".
It is Loshon Hora to say "the reason non-religious people want me to get drafted is because they hate me".
It is Loshon Hora to pick a few defects of the non-Haredi world, or let's say a few nasty things said by deceitful non-Haredi politicians, and make sweeping generalizations and claim that the *whole* non-Haredi world is anti-Torah, corrupted, and united against the Haredim.
The problem with the deadline idea is that successive govts have been kicking the can down the road for years now. At most, the stipends will be reduced or removed over a period of time and I have a feeling that won't stand politically. We'll see.
A question for those who believe that the desire to draft the Chareidim is primarily due to hatred/a desire to destroy the Chareidi lifestyle: How would you explain the motivations of the approximately twenty-nine percent of the *Chareidi* public who support enlistment? Or the approximately seventy percent who support military or other national service for those not actively learning?
'For the people defending the charedi position, what’s their vision for how Am Yisrael should conduct itself? Meaning if they could snap their fingers and everyone fell into line, would all adult males be learning full-time in kollel? Would it be an all-female workforce? Have they worked out the economic viability of this ideal?"
Of course they haven't. And anyway, that arrangement has never existed in the entire history of the Jewish people.
"That’s the whole problem - they have a shtetl mentality, and they don’t know how to scale up for being a large and growing proportion of the country. They don’t even think about it. The whole idea of having a large-scale vision or plan is alien to their way of thinking. Plans, like laws, are for goyim."
Spot on. They simply have no conception of what it takes to run a society and civilization. Golus is probably mostly to blame, except they haven't noticed that it's not Poland in 1547 anymore. A few years ago, I read a (mild) rebuke to this effect in a frum publication with regard to the haphazard and thoughtless way Lakewood was being developed, though maybe it's better now.
So now a Sepharadi Chareidi Rosh Yeshiva is saying that even Chareidim who don't really learn also shouldn't be drafted, as even they provide protection in their sometimes learning, and sometimes davening, and sometimes not sinning.
There's a former Satmar Chassid, R. Yissoschor Katz, whom I follow on Facebook. He's still religious, and quite learned, but just modern Orthodox in his values (sort of the process Rabbi Slifkin underwent, but just starting out Satmar instead of Litvish.)
He wrote in a recent post that, instead of writing why the Charedim should serve in the army, the burden of proof should be placed on them, to properly defend their position of why they feel all full-time Torah-studying Charedim should be exempt.
>"Time and again, we hear charedi voices claiming that it’s all about people hating charedim and wanting to erase Torah [...]
It’s just bizarre. Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion?"
This fits a very common pattern in culture war issues, where people ascribe hidden hatred to the other side, and assume that the explicit claims are in bad faith, and not the true reasons
"It’s just bizarre. Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion? Is it really so difficult to understand that when most of the country is living at a time of funerals and hospitalizations and hundreds of thousands of men being away from their families and jobs and risking their lives, and the IDF declares that there is still a manpower shortage and people will have to spend additional months and years in the army beyond what they already contribute, that people want change from a community that absolves itself of sharing any such responsibility (and moreover demands to be paid for it)?!'
I made this point previously, but it seems the less religious people are, the more obsessed they are with chareidim. The blog Irrationalist Modoxim has articles from a soldier who makes this very point and claims that the more Torahdike the community, the less this is an issue for them and the more they appreciate the contribution that chareidim actually make. The most obsessed are the seculars, who of course hate chareidi society and everything it stands for, even besides the army issue. This includes you Slifkin. As I pointed out, you are far more obsessed with hatred of chareidim than with hatred of Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinians, Lebanes, Egyptians, etc. This indicates that your hatred stems from deep religious guilt more than the alleged fact that chareidim are putting an additional burden on you.
"I think that I’ve covered most of the issues relating to this..." Ya think?
You should be very proud of yourself rabbi doctor! Fully covering one side of an issue! What an accomplishment!
Just remember folks, this is the same naar (fool) who thinks he's a bar plugta of Rashi, knows better than all the gedoei olam throughout the doros who unequivocally accepted the Zohar (again, he knows better than all of them), and doesn't understand why male masturbation is wrong.
But oh, we should take his word on this matter very strongly. *This time* he got it right!
They (and "they" includes Bibi) just thought that they could keep pushing it off. It even got pushed off (or, better, nothing got done about it) when Bennett and then Lapid were in charge. Maybe it just can't be pushed off any longer. We'll see.
"and that’s why ArtScroll will publish a book about the heroism of Hatzala medics"
Leaving aside the question of taste (publishing a book stressing "miracles" when so many were murdered- but then there are "miracle" books even about the Holocaust), let's be frank here: They also wouldn't publish a book about Magen David Adom. Hatzala is seen as "safe" because it is seen as not part of the "Zionist entity" and even "charedi". (In fact, Mada is also not a government body, Hatzala is also connected to the government as much as Mada is, and Hatzala is not, in fact, charedi- they even have Arab medics- but I am talking about public perception, especially among American Jews to whom "Hatzala" means something very specific.)
I'll take it a step further: There's a prominent family in my shul, Israelis and not charedim, who are very connected to Hatzala. A few years back "kochot habitachon" was added to the tefillah for Tzahal, to include I guess the Mossad and Police and so on. Fair enough, I suppose. Anyway, the members of this family have recently been adding more and more items to the tefillah, up to "anshei Hatzala." It was frankly getting a little ridiculous and political, but what really put it over the top for me was when they started adding "lomdei Torah" to the list.
Yeah, lomdei Torah really need protection from harm.
OK, so now what? It's the right thing for them to go, you have torah backing your argument (it's your interpritation and the gedolim will obvioulsy disagree), and the law will require it but guess what, fewer charedim will join as this will radecalize them even more. The approach is flawed and everyone knows it. You as an outsider cannot influence them and there is no leader amongst them who will stand up and demand change. This leads to the ONLY solution. $.
"My answer was that they don’t have a vision or plan or anything.... Plans, like laws, are for goyim."
No. They simply don't relate to the concept of plans. The widescale abandonment of ישוב ארץ ישראל and leaving it to the secular is one of the causes of our woes today. Plans are not somehow חוקות הגויים. Plans are complex and require in depth evaluation with a vision for generations beyond immediate expediency. And the consequences of deciding incorrectly can be enormous. Plans involve compromises, contingencies, risks and the inevitable choice between rock and a hard place when real world constraints roll in like a juggernaut. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.) So it's best to avoid making plans and trot out the good ol' reliable שב ועל תעשה. That way no wrong has actively been done, and there's the delectable fringe benefit of blaming someone else when all goes to pot.
What will UTJ do now? Well, that's going to take some planning.
Charedi insouciance about the fate of Israel is not merely a reluctance to plan ahead, but also a feeling that they could ultimately get by somewhere else.
You can lead a perfectly Charedi life in Lakewood, Kiryas Yoel, Antwerp, or Stamford Hill. Whether or not it would be feasible for hundreds of thousands of Charedim to move elsewhere is open to question, but if Israel did collapse, and its remaining Jewish residents faced the threat of imminent massacre, it is plausible that they would find refuge somewhere, just as many Syrian refugees did.
While Charedim are happy to live in Israel and to benefit from all the funding and other resources the state provides, they are mostly not invested in the success of the state, or the Zionist enterprise in general. They're invested in keeping the Charedi enterprise going, and that can be done elsewhere.
What the non-Charedi majority should do about this is another question, but recognising the basis of Charedi opposition to what Israeli non-Charedim consider fundamental civic duties is a start.
Regarding 2, yes there is no plan. Charedim oppose the idea of building a Jewish state in the land of Israel, or anywhere else, and therefore do not have a plan for how to make this state work. Maybe Charedim are wrong and building a country surrounded by hundreds of millions of incensed low IQ crazy people who want to murder you, being an international pariah state, and fighting wars for ever is actually a really good idea. But Charedim do not agree, and thus do not have to form a plan for how to make this thing work.
Interesting discussion in the comments. But, as the Shegetz mentioned, up until 6 months ago the plan was for a small, smart military force, the army service was shortened, there was a talk about Israel abolishing the draft and switching to a professional army and now suddenly there is a manpower crisis? What does it say about the leadership both civilian and military of the country? In my layman's opinion they have demonstrated their incompetence. The response since Oct. 7 was another failure. Drafting the charedim, which will not happen, will not solve the flaws of the Israeli political system. Can Israel succesfully deal with the current crisis? I don't think it can. Simon Peres' and Slifkin's 'The New Middle East' is upon us.
"The resolution allowing charedim to avoid the draft is expiring..."
What? Again? Yawn. This headline has been repeated like every year or so over the last 25 years.....
We should try talking in terminology familiar to the Haredim: "Loshon Hora".
It is Loshon Hora to say "the reason non-religious people want me to get drafted is because they hate me".
It is Loshon Hora to pick a few defects of the non-Haredi world, or let's say a few nasty things said by deceitful non-Haredi politicians, and make sweeping generalizations and claim that the *whole* non-Haredi world is anti-Torah, corrupted, and united against the Haredim.
The problem with the deadline idea is that successive govts have been kicking the can down the road for years now. At most, the stipends will be reduced or removed over a period of time and I have a feeling that won't stand politically. We'll see.
A question for those who believe that the desire to draft the Chareidim is primarily due to hatred/a desire to destroy the Chareidi lifestyle: How would you explain the motivations of the approximately twenty-nine percent of the *Chareidi* public who support enlistment? Or the approximately seventy percent who support military or other national service for those not actively learning?
The source for this data is https://machon.org.il/en/expressing-identification-with-israeli-society-and-supporting-increased-enlistment-to-the-idf-survey-results/ . Earlier, pre-October 7 surveys generally showed somewhat smaller percentages in favor.
'For the people defending the charedi position, what’s their vision for how Am Yisrael should conduct itself? Meaning if they could snap their fingers and everyone fell into line, would all adult males be learning full-time in kollel? Would it be an all-female workforce? Have they worked out the economic viability of this ideal?"
Of course they haven't. And anyway, that arrangement has never existed in the entire history of the Jewish people.
"That’s the whole problem - they have a shtetl mentality, and they don’t know how to scale up for being a large and growing proportion of the country. They don’t even think about it. The whole idea of having a large-scale vision or plan is alien to their way of thinking. Plans, like laws, are for goyim."
Spot on. They simply have no conception of what it takes to run a society and civilization. Golus is probably mostly to blame, except they haven't noticed that it's not Poland in 1547 anymore. A few years ago, I read a (mild) rebuke to this effect in a frum publication with regard to the haphazard and thoughtless way Lakewood was being developed, though maybe it's better now.
So now a Sepharadi Chareidi Rosh Yeshiva is saying that even Chareidim who don't really learn also shouldn't be drafted, as even they provide protection in their sometimes learning, and sometimes davening, and sometimes not sinning.
https://www.ynet.co.il/judaism/article/bk9t9czy0
In his world the Chayyalim are some sort of "other", and the DL community doesn't seem to exist