There's a former Satmar Chassid, R. Yissoschor Katz, whom I follow on Facebook. He's still religious, and quite learned, but just modern Orthodox in his values (sort of the process Rabbi Slifkin underwent, but just starting out Satmar instead of Litvish.)
He wrote in a recent post that, instead of writing why the Charedim should serve in the army, the burden of proof should be placed on them, to properly defend their position of why they feel all full-time Torah-studying Charedim should be exempt.
Who cares what this OO guy thinks? Why is he better than Slifkin? As far as chareidim are concerned, both are beyond the pale in terms of their religious beliefs.
The BANdana virus will soon run its course via Herd Immunity to his malevolent toxins. After a day or two of exposure to his infected prattle, we should easily recuperate with the help of a few doses of anti-Gadol pills.
Not really: One of the Charedi concerns about army service is that, they worked so hard to raise their child to be frum, who knows how frum he'll be after 2.5 years of army?
The only people who can assuage such concerns are people who care deeply about their children being frum, and nonetheless have no qualms about them serving in the IDF.
He's definitely a contender (I know a student of his from back in his BP days), and I wouldn't blame anyone for ignoring him. To be fair, RYK is not as radical as much of the OO crowd. He even implicitly denounced a OO figure as a heretic.
>"Time and again, we hear charedi voices claiming that it’s all about people hating charedim and wanting to erase Torah [...]
It’s just bizarre. Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion?"
This fits a very common pattern in culture war issues, where people ascribe hidden hatred to the other side, and assume that the explicit claims are in bad faith, and not the true reasons
It's not hidden hatred, it's quite explicit. Attributing evil intentions to an entire population is hatred of that population, getting obsessed with these "criticisms" is a higher level of hatred, in fact it is precisely the type of hatred that most regular anti-semites engage in. On the other hand, what you are describing as "assume that the explicit claims are in bad faith" is EXACTLY what Slifkin does with the chareidim.
"Attributing evil intentions" - who attributed evil intentions? Citation needed.
"getting obsessed with these "criticisms" is a higher level of hatred" - there's no indication that it's hatred, as opposed to frustration. Anti semites believe in objective falsehoods, unlike R' Slifkin, so there's no analogy
-"assume that the explicit claims are in bad faith" is EXACTLY what Slifkin does with the chareidim" - 1) in my reading, he doesn't say that it's in bad faith, rather that they don't truly believe it, and are deceiving themselves. 2) he doesn't assume it, he proves it, based on their actions: asking the army for protection
Saying an entire population is selfish is attributing evil intentions, and is precisely the primary claim of anti-semites about Jews
"there's no indication that it's hatred, as opposed to frustration."
You can say that about any anti-semites, even Nazis? Maybe the anti-semites are just frustrated with Jewish selfishness? The Erez Nehederet clip was as bad as anything from Goebbels.
" Anti semites believe in objective falsehoods"
Not necessarily at all. Most of their stuff is based objective truths, like the Jews are primarily interested in the welfare of other Jews, or the welfare Israel, or that Jews have disproportionate control of the economy and politics, and wield that power for the benefit of other Jews or Israel. These are truths that are subject to interpretation, and the anti semites interpret them in the worst possible light. Precisely the same way anti chareidim interpret chareidi behavior.
"he doesn't assume it, he proves it, based on their actions: asking the army for protection"
He doesn't prove anything of the sort. It is much easier to prove anti-chareidi hatred than to prove what Slifkin thinks he is proving.
-"Saying an entire population is selfish is attributing evil intentions". No it's not, evil and selfish are two very different things. 'evil' is "Intending to harm" (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/evil) . R' Slifkin never said that they're intending to do harm; rather, harm is the unintended consequence of selfishness.
-"These are truths that are subject to interpretation, and the anti semites interpret them in the worst possible light." - you're strongly misrepresenting the amount of objective falsehoods that the avg anti-Semite today believes. They don't simply believe "that Jews have disproportionate control of the economy and politics" (an objective truth), they typically believe much more than that: that these powerful (overwhelmingly secular) Jews conspire together to the detriment of non -Jews.
-"he doesn't prove anything of the sort". Actually, he does. See the previous post he linked to, about whether chareidim actually believe that Torah protects
"you're strongly misrepresenting the amount of objective falsehoods that the avg anti-Semite today believes."
I don't think so. Citation? But to be clear, you are ok with all the anti-semites who constantly point out the "selfishness" of the Jews (in that they are mostly concerned with the welfare of Israel or fellow Jews and use political and economic power to that effect)?
" that these powerful (overwhelmingly secular) Jews conspire together to the detriment of non -Jews."
Most of them claim that Jews collaborate with other Jews for the benefit of Jews as opposed to gentiles, a true fact. Calling it a "conspiracy" is an example of interpreting it in the worst possible light.
" Actually, he does."
Actually, he doesn't. His stupid, ignorant interpretation of something does not make a proof.
Re points #1 and #2, you're conflating American orthodox Jews and American secular Jews. Re #1, Orthodox Jews are indeed objectively (and proudly) "selfish", in the sense of mostly caring about their community, more so than secular Jews. I don't think it's anti semitic to point this out.
Re #2, American secular Jews don't secretly collaborate to promote Jewish interests, contrary to what the avg anti semites thinks.
Re #3, R' Slifkin indeed argues extensively, in great detail, that this isn't a true belief by the chareidim. Meaning (in my reading), that they're deceiving themselves. The strongest indication of this (in my opinion) is, in R' Slifkin's words: "charedim are not willing to stake anything at all on their purported belief that Torah protects" (https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah)
So unfortunately, from an analytical perspective, it's not 'bizarre', it's perfectly understandable.
From a psychological perspective, this phenomenon is primarily due to "fundamental attribution error", which is " a cognitive attribution bias where observers underemphasize situational and environmental factors for the behavior of an actor while overemphasizing dispositional or personality factors. In other words, observers tend to overattribute the behaviors of others to their personality (e.g., he is late because he's selfish) and underattribute them to the situation or context (e.g., he is late because he got stuck in traffic
What I find bizarre is how hypersensitive haredim like Banana are. Anything less than total fandom is lethal, scathing hatred. How on earth can an adult human being survive with such a thin skin? More like a junior high school girl than a mature grown up.
"It’s just bizarre. Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion? Is it really so difficult to understand that when most of the country is living at a time of funerals and hospitalizations and hundreds of thousands of men being away from their families and jobs and risking their lives, and the IDF declares that there is still a manpower shortage and people will have to spend additional months and years in the army beyond what they already contribute, that people want change from a community that absolves itself of sharing any such responsibility (and moreover demands to be paid for it)?!'
I made this point previously, but it seems the less religious people are, the more obsessed they are with chareidim. The blog Irrationalist Modoxim has articles from a soldier who makes this very point and claims that the more Torahdike the community, the less this is an issue for them and the more they appreciate the contribution that chareidim actually make. The most obsessed are the seculars, who of course hate chareidi society and everything it stands for, even besides the army issue. This includes you Slifkin. As I pointed out, you are far more obsessed with hatred of chareidim than with hatred of Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinians, Lebanes, Egyptians, etc. This indicates that your hatred stems from deep religious guilt more than the alleged fact that chareidim are putting an additional burden on you.
"Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion?"
What does your point "the less religious people are, the more obsessed they are with chareidim." have to do with that, other than implying those dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers are low on the scale of religious service?
My comment addresses that. What's "all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva"? It depends on the level of observance. Those that are more goyishe tend to have more inflammatory rhetoric and obsession with chareidim. My observation. Coincidence?
It's a bit sad you think you have actually dealt with the point.
There are DL rabbonim who can knock the socks off most of Lakewood, yet believe chareidim should do something to assist - are they or are they not motivated by hatred for the charedi system?
"There are DL rabbonim who can knock the socks off most of Lakewood'
Whataboutism.
"yet believe chareidim should do something to assist..are they or are they not motivated by hatred for the charedi system?"
Probably not hatred. But the most inflammatory voices definitely are. And those voices just tend to belong to the most secular people out there (with exceptions, of course). Coincidence?
"I think that I’ve covered most of the issues relating to this..." Ya think?
You should be very proud of yourself rabbi doctor! Fully covering one side of an issue! What an accomplishment!
Just remember folks, this is the same naar (fool) who thinks he's a bar plugta of Rashi, knows better than all the gedoei olam throughout the doros who unequivocally accepted the Zohar (again, he knows better than all of them), and doesn't understand why male masturbation is wrong.
But oh, we should take his word on this matter very strongly. *This time* he got it right!
They (and "they" includes Bibi) just thought that they could keep pushing it off. It even got pushed off (or, better, nothing got done about it) when Bennett and then Lapid were in charge. Maybe it just can't be pushed off any longer. We'll see.
"and that’s why ArtScroll will publish a book about the heroism of Hatzala medics"
Leaving aside the question of taste (publishing a book stressing "miracles" when so many were murdered- but then there are "miracle" books even about the Holocaust), let's be frank here: They also wouldn't publish a book about Magen David Adom. Hatzala is seen as "safe" because it is seen as not part of the "Zionist entity" and even "charedi". (In fact, Mada is also not a government body, Hatzala is also connected to the government as much as Mada is, and Hatzala is not, in fact, charedi- they even have Arab medics- but I am talking about public perception, especially among American Jews to whom "Hatzala" means something very specific.)
I'll take it a step further: There's a prominent family in my shul, Israelis and not charedim, who are very connected to Hatzala. A few years back "kochot habitachon" was added to the tefillah for Tzahal, to include I guess the Mossad and Police and so on. Fair enough, I suppose. Anyway, the members of this family have recently been adding more and more items to the tefillah, up to "anshei Hatzala." It was frankly getting a little ridiculous and political, but what really put it over the top for me was when they started adding "lomdei Torah" to the list.
Yeah, lomdei Torah really need protection from harm.
wait? they are actually now asking US to pray to God that he protect the Lomdei Torah from harm???? I thought that the whole self-exemption was based on the presumptive FACT that the Lomdei Torah are the ones protecting US from harm?!?! do these people even understand how twisted their rationale has become. That's it - I will no longer recite the first יקום פורקן. I had always thought we need to remove בבל only because it was obviously no longer relevant. But according to Charedi hashkafa, on a practical level, the entire tefilla is irrelevant as Torah Study is meant to protect and provide for EVERYTHING included in that prayer!!
That's an excellent point. Aside from the offensiveness of putting lomdei Torah in that tefillah, and the fact that they don't NEED protection, surely their whole claim is that THEY are the ones providing protection!
Not sure lomdei torah need a new prayer, or that the principle of there being such a prayer is offensive - there is already a pretty comprehensive prayer, namely Yekum Purkan, which asks for the protection, success, health, etc of lomdei torah amongst others:
What a stupid comment. If so, the tefilah for the IDF also makes no sense, since the Zionists believe the IDF is really who provides the protection. But of course yeshiva students will pray for themselves and other yeshiva students, etc. Really shows how utterly clueless you are.
Uhm, religious Zionists who serve i the army pray because they believe in prayer. Many secular Zionists do so as well - as the saying goes “there are no atheists in foxholes” and every soldier understands that divine providence is needed.
The point is that charedim believe that Torah study is the SOLE method for achieving divine providence and protection. So why would they need to say this prayer? They should just continue on to the next tosafot or Rashi.
You really have no idea that all Religious Zionists, and a very large part of the non-dati population of Israel, believes that God protects our soldiers? Really?
Everyone needs protection from harm. The Mi Sheberach for Tzahal is clearly intended as a request for God to protect specifically those people (soldiers, maybe some others) who consciously put themselves into the line of fire. Yeshiva students don't. That's not a dig against yeshiva students. Lots of people don't. And they don't belong in the tefillah either.
yes. but according to normative Charedi hashkafa, this prayer is unnecessary!!! it's even offensive as it's asking God to provide things that Charedim believe God provides by virtue of their Torah study!
If it makes you feel better, Sephardim don't recite either Yekum Purkan, as they were written (despite the reference to Bavel and the Aramaic) in Ashkenaz.
I think Sephardim (with the usual caveat that there is no single "Sephardim") only recite the Mi Sheberach for the Kahal on Shabbat Mevarchim, which is also the only time they recite the four Yehi Ratzons Ashkenazim say every Monday and Thursday. Sephardim of course never say Av HaRachamim, and their Mevarchim HaChodesh is basically one line. If only they wouldn't say every word out loud (a practice they actually got from Ashkenazim before Ashkenazim themselves dropped it) their tefillah would be really quick.
OK, so now what? It's the right thing for them to go, you have torah backing your argument (it's your interpritation and the gedolim will obvioulsy disagree), and the law will require it but guess what, fewer charedim will join as this will radecalize them even more. The approach is flawed and everyone knows it. You as an outsider cannot influence them and there is no leader amongst them who will stand up and demand change. This leads to the ONLY solution. $.
Correct, the only solution is $. And the only way that happens is if they are out of the government. And the only way that happens is if they become politically undesirable.
Exactly. Non-Charedim created this status quo by preferring that their politicians fund Charedim than that they form coalitions with non-Charedi ideological oppenents. If they didn't, it wouldn't keep happening. It's also difficult to change, because the short term cost of funding Charedim is often more tolerable than joining up with ideological opponents who differ on what are frequently matters of life and death, but if it doesn't change, the Charedi status quo won't either.
Nobody needs to coerce Charedim to do anything. If, for example, yeshivos whose talmidim do not serve in the army were denied government support, schools that do not teach a full secular studies curriculum were not funded by the government (as is the case in most countries), and those in kollel were denied financial incentives such as arnona discounts, change would come very quickly. Some Charedim might leave (if they are able to), whereas others would adjust. It is simply a matter of the rest of Israel having the stomach and stamina to impose these changes for an extended period.
The hatred of Bibi is so extreme, yes, they would.
One of the "pro-hostage" demonstration leaders was recently asked, after he said that the hostages should be freed "at all costs," if that included the possibility of Bibi staying in power for a few more years if they were freed. He said no.
Which is not the same as saying that they support it - and as long as they calm down before the next elections there will be no consequences for going against the will of their voters.
Raise army wages. Lower stipends for learning. The less adept learners can earn a salary in the IDF and give most of it to their brethren who are learning. In other words, the learners can come around to their homes to beg, instead of to the homes of people who are not earning their normal income because they are serving.
Except most of those who claim not to take money from the State of course do.
Not to mention that they use State money pretty much every second, when they turn on their lights, open a faucet, walk on the sidewalk, go to the hospital...and benefit from the protection of the military.
That's the argument put forth by Moshe Ber Beck in his oddly titled קומי צאי מתוך ההפכה. Not only is it a cardinal sin to live in Israel because of הנאה you mention, there's also the issue of paying taxes to the ממשלת זדון which is unavoidable when it comes to the sales tax.
"My answer was that they don’t have a vision or plan or anything.... Plans, like laws, are for goyim."
No. They simply don't relate to the concept of plans. The widescale abandonment of ישוב ארץ ישראל and leaving it to the secular is one of the causes of our woes today. Plans are not somehow חוקות הגויים. Plans are complex and require in depth evaluation with a vision for generations beyond immediate expediency. And the consequences of deciding incorrectly can be enormous. Plans involve compromises, contingencies, risks and the inevitable choice between rock and a hard place when real world constraints roll in like a juggernaut. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.) So it's best to avoid making plans and trot out the good ol' reliable שב ועל תעשה. That way no wrong has actively been done, and there's the delectable fringe benefit of blaming someone else when all goes to pot.
What will UTJ do now? Well, that's going to take some planning.
Charedi insouciance about the fate of Israel is not merely a reluctance to plan ahead, but also a feeling that they could ultimately get by somewhere else.
You can lead a perfectly Charedi life in Lakewood, Kiryas Yoel, Antwerp, or Stamford Hill. Whether or not it would be feasible for hundreds of thousands of Charedim to move elsewhere is open to question, but if Israel did collapse, and its remaining Jewish residents faced the threat of imminent massacre, it is plausible that they would find refuge somewhere, just as many Syrian refugees did.
While Charedim are happy to live in Israel and to benefit from all the funding and other resources the state provides, they are mostly not invested in the success of the state, or the Zionist enterprise in general. They're invested in keeping the Charedi enterprise going, and that can be done elsewhere.
What the non-Charedi majority should do about this is another question, but recognising the basis of Charedi opposition to what Israeli non-Charedim consider fundamental civic duties is a start.
>"Charedi insouciance about the fate of Israel is not merely a reluctance to plan ahead, but also a feeling that they could ultimately get by somewhere else."
That claim was indeed made by R' Yosef recently, and was analyzed by R' Slifkin in a different post. Bottom line, it's not a very serious argument, for a variety of reasons. Chareidim are in fact objectively far less mobile than the rest of Israeli society, primarily due to their poverty, large families, and lack of marketable skills
"Chareidim are in fact objectively far less mobile than the rest of Israeli society, primarily due to their poverty, large families, and lack of marketable skills"
Maybe on an individual level, but on a communal level, they are far better at working systems and taking advantage of loopholes than most other populations. I wrote previously that probably thousands could take advantage of Poland's right to citizenship for those with Polish ancestry (which as far as I can tell, doesn't require marketable skills). There's a good chance they could argue for refugee status for religious persecution to get into the US (and there are plenty of chareidi lawyers who would be willing to help them).
"they are far better at working systems and taking advantage of loopholes than most other populations. "
Sounds like a slur against Charedim. One can never pierce the anonymity of the blog comment section, but that comment betrays you as a cynical OTDer posing as Charedi. (Or it could be a case of justified paranoia)
This is not an insult. There is nothing wrong with working systems or using loopholes for legitimate purposes, this is literally what a large portion of most economies are built on.
Those are interesting points and speculations. I recently read a very good book on migration. He makes the point that as a general rule, only a very small percentage of people migrate, even in fairly extreme circumstances. My guess is that even charedim getting drafted wouldn't be extreme enough to have much of an impact on charedi emigration. Some equilibrium will be found, practically and ideologically.
Another point: this isn't a perfect analogy, but the reality is that during the Holocaust, the Orthodox were probably the most affected. Of course, the American orthodox population is now far larger and more powerful, but I think you may be overrating just how relevant "working systems and loopholes" would be relevant in case of migration
It is speculation, but no less speculation than the speculation that chareidim will allow themselves to be drafted. As for the Holocaust, that's a good point, but I think most of the Orthodox didn't want to leave until it was too late.
Why do you think only 1% of chareidim have Polish ancestry? Does this sound like a reasonable assumption? Just based on a quick mental survey of chareidim I know (which doesn't include many chassidim) it's probably closer to 50%. I would be interested in accurate numbers though. But for the rest there is my other suggestion, which I think has a strong chance of success.
"They didn't leave when Paula Ben Gurion was running things, and they won't leave now."
They didn't threaten to leave when Ben Gurion was running things, and they had just recently suffered the Holocaust and were trying to rebuild. In 2024 it is a matter of the seculars trying to destroy everything the chareidim built, the entire yeshiva world, their entire chinuch system. Chareidim will do whatever they can to preserve it. If they don't emigrate, they will find a different way to not have their children conscripted. They will go to jail rather than enlist. Or... what would happen, for example, if a bunch of chareidi bochurim were forcibly drafted and highly resented this, and something really bad happened in that unit, and the chilonim had second thoughts about conscripting chareidim? Just thinking aloud here.
"Or... what would happen, for example, if a bunch of chareidi bochurim were forcibly drafted and highly resented this, and something really bad happened in that unit,..." You mean what if they allowed themselves to be slaughtered by the enemy? Their choice, I suppose, but sounds a lot like suicide.
"Why do you think only 1% of chareidim have Polish ancestry?"
You've lost the plot. YOU wrote "thousands". You should used another number.
" If they don't emigrate..."
You've lost the plot. The topic was whether there will be a mass emigration of Charedim. You insist there will be and you've only come up with Poland. And who is going to guarantee that they won't be drafted in Poland? There was compulsive service until recently. With the region heating up, polls show poles want a return to the draft.
So again. It's a fantasy, drushed up by Rav Yosef (and some years ago by the Brisker) and cherished by secularists. But it's not going to happen.
I'm not sure the relative immobility of Charedim is sufficient to generate an ideological commitment to Israel's success.
To their minds, they've managed until now, and, if push comes to shove, they'll manage elsewhere. And I'm not sure they're wrong either: perhaps America would take them in if Israel failed and they were on the verge of being exterminated by the Palestinians and their Iranian backers.
I'm also not convinced that the majority of Charedim would leave Israel merely due to the draft issue, though it's unlikely that the rest of Israel has the stomach to force yeshiva bochurim into the army en masse in any case.
I think you're overrating how much thought the chareidim put into the future consequences of the status quo. This is a point made by R' Slifkin in a previous post about R' Steinman, about the myth of a secret "plan". Chareidim have no plan, they just want to continue the status quo
Right, but part of the reason they are so invested in the status quo is their lack of commitment to Israel's success as non-Charedim see it, in terms of it having a flourishing economy or Jewish self-determination more broadly.
"Charedi insouciance about the fate of Israel is not merely a reluctance to plan ahead, but also a feeling that they could ultimately get by somewhere else. "
More like lack of a feeling that they couldn't make it elsewhere. The implication would be that there's plenty of countries freely offering visas/citizenship, an Emma Lazarus poem and a guaranteed fifteen percent representation in an evenly split legislature. ליורד בחומה, is nothing but fanciful אגדה. And we all know what Herzl said about אגדות.
"Whether or not it would be feasible for hundreds of thousands of Charedim to move elsewhere is open to question"
It's a closed question whose answer is "no".
"They're invested in keeping the Charedi enterprise going, and that can be done elsewhere."
The Charedi enterprise elsewhere is anathema to the Charedi enterprise here.
Regarding 2, yes there is no plan. Charedim oppose the idea of building a Jewish state in the land of Israel, or anywhere else, and therefore do not have a plan for how to make this state work. Maybe Charedim are wrong and building a country surrounded by hundreds of millions of incensed low IQ crazy people who want to murder you, being an international pariah state, and fighting wars for ever is actually a really good idea. But Charedim do not agree, and thus do not have to form a plan for how to make this thing work.
" Charedim oppose the idea of building a Jewish state in the land of Israel, or anywhere else"
Palm Tree?
"and therefore do not have a plan for how to make this state work."
The prohibition of grilling a cheeseburger does not negate the knowledge to do so. A Charedi minister in charge of safety standards would be required to exercise his duties faithfully whether the regulations he implements apply to a בית מדרש or a movie theater or a mixed swimming pool. What you are attempting to excuse is any incompetence or even any malevolent sabotage. Not only is what your claiming nonsensical, it doesn't reflect Charedi thinking.
" Maybe Charedim are wrong and building a country surrounded by hundreds of millions of incensed low IQ crazy people who want to murder you, being an international pariah state, and fighting wars for ever is actually a really good idea."
I doubt you're representing Charedim with that statement.
As to your first point, Kiryas Yoel is not an independent state, it is a semi-autonomous area of Jewish settlement. This is the principle model by which Jews have lived for 2,000 years. Many people claimed that in the modern era such a model was unsustainable, but it turned out they were wrong and, when the facts change, rational people change their mind.
Your second point is ridiculous. Of course, it doesn't *preclude* knowing how to make a cheeseburger, but if someone demanded of me that I gave them a good cheeseburger recipe, it would be completely reasonable for me to respond that, this having no relevance to my life in any way, I have never given the issue any thought.
Your third point though is correct. Many Haredim, and among under 40s a clear majority, have become de facto Zionists with incoherent and unprincipled reasons why they don't have to do the whole package. The correct response, however, is not for Charedim to go all in in the failed ideology of Zionism (still less the literally crazy ideology of Religious Zionism), but to return to the authentic way of the Hazon Ish.
Interesting discussion in the comments. But, as the Shegetz mentioned, up until 6 months ago the plan was for a small, smart military force, the army service was shortened, there was a talk about Israel abolishing the draft and switching to a professional army and now suddenly there is a manpower crisis? What does it say about the leadership both civilian and military of the country? In my layman's opinion they have demonstrated their incompetence. The response since Oct. 7 was another failure. Drafting the charedim, which will not happen, will not solve the flaws of the Israeli political system. Can Israel succesfully deal with the current crisis? I don't think it can. Simon Peres' and Slifkin's 'The New Middle East' is upon us.
Israel is facing a lot of challenges in light of the failures that leads to Oct. 7 drafting charedim will not solve all of these problems. But it will help with the radically increased in man power needs of the IDF. That would be one less problem. If you think Israel is doomed one way or another and any actions are futile, fine. are you advocating that we all leave Israel?
I advocate rational thinking. Charedi draft, which will not happen, should be put off until the present crisis is resolved. Chaos, civil unrest, government collapse, elections, a new government, which will be no less incompetent and unable to deal with the issues facing the country are in the interest of the Israeli enemies and give them stregth.
Slifkin is an irrational hate monger and rabble rouser. Just like he lionized Peres and Rabin, who were telling us that Arafat was going to fight terrorism in the New Middle East, he is now irrationaly obsessed with the charedi draft. The results will be
Well, you did visit the 'elder statesman' and wrote a lauding post about him, but I don't remember exactly. If you say that you didn't, so be it and I take my words back.
"While I certainly don't agree with Peres' political views, and I was never happy with him as a politician, I think that he is excellent and invaluable to Israel as a president. "
On that sentiment, it would profit us if we had 120 presidents.
We should try talking in terminology familiar to the Haredim: "Loshon Hora".
It is Loshon Hora to say "the reason non-religious people want me to get drafted is because they hate me".
It is Loshon Hora to pick a few defects of the non-Haredi world, or let's say a few nasty things said by deceitful non-Haredi politicians, and make sweeping generalizations and claim that the *whole* non-Haredi world is anti-Torah, corrupted, and united against the Haredim.
The problem with the deadline idea is that successive govts have been kicking the can down the road for years now. At most, the stipends will be reduced or removed over a period of time and I have a feeling that won't stand politically. We'll see.
A question for those who believe that the desire to draft the Chareidim is primarily due to hatred/a desire to destroy the Chareidi lifestyle: How would you explain the motivations of the approximately twenty-nine percent of the *Chareidi* public who support enlistment? Or the approximately seventy percent who support military or other national service for those not actively learning?
I don't know about the quality of this poll, but speaking for myself and the people I know, granted we are a rebellious bunch, many of us, myself included, think that serving in the army and getting basic education would have been a good idea for the charedim. The way things are it should not happen, it cannot happen and it will not happen. Slifkins rabble rousers dominate the discourse and the voices of reason are not listened to.
That's sort of like asking "for those who believe that opposition to Israel's behavior is primarily rooted in anti-semitism, how would you explain the motivations of the percentage of *Jews* who oppose Israel's behavior?"
First, I wouldn’t equate the two, because while self-identification as Jewish is, in the polls, primarily a function of descent rather than behavior or belief, self-identification as Chareidi is connected with a particular set of behaviors and beliefs.
Second, I think that a person to whom your second question would apply would either respond that there are many antisemitic Jews or that the anti-Israel Jews are for some reason the exception.
Anyway, is it your position that something like twenty-nine percent of Chareidim hate the Chareidi community writ large, or wish to destroy the Chareidi lifestyle? And if not, what percentage would you put it at?
'For the people defending the charedi position, what’s their vision for how Am Yisrael should conduct itself? Meaning if they could snap their fingers and everyone fell into line, would all adult males be learning full-time in kollel? Would it be an all-female workforce? Have they worked out the economic viability of this ideal?"
Of course they haven't. And anyway, that arrangement has never existed in the entire history of the Jewish people.
"That’s the whole problem - they have a shtetl mentality, and they don’t know how to scale up for being a large and growing proportion of the country. They don’t even think about it. The whole idea of having a large-scale vision or plan is alien to their way of thinking. Plans, like laws, are for goyim."
Spot on. They simply have no conception of what it takes to run a society and civilization. Golus is probably mostly to blame, except they haven't noticed that it's not Poland in 1547 anymore. A few years ago, I read a (mild) rebuke to this effect in a frum publication with regard to the haphazard and thoughtless way Lakewood was being developed, though maybe it's better now.
So now a Sepharadi Chareidi Rosh Yeshiva is saying that even Chareidim who don't really learn also shouldn't be drafted, as even they provide protection in their sometimes learning, and sometimes davening, and sometimes not sinning.
There's a former Satmar Chassid, R. Yissoschor Katz, whom I follow on Facebook. He's still religious, and quite learned, but just modern Orthodox in his values (sort of the process Rabbi Slifkin underwent, but just starting out Satmar instead of Litvish.)
He wrote in a recent post that, instead of writing why the Charedim should serve in the army, the burden of proof should be placed on them, to properly defend their position of why they feel all full-time Torah-studying Charedim should be exempt.
Who cares what this OO guy thinks? Why is he better than Slifkin? As far as chareidim are concerned, both are beyond the pale in terms of their religious beliefs.
Sigh. The BANdana virus still hasn't run its course here, I see . . .
@Weaver,
The BANdana virus will soon run its course via Herd Immunity to his malevolent toxins. After a day or two of exposure to his infected prattle, we should easily recuperate with the help of a few doses of anti-Gadol pills.
Defining anyone who effectively counters your arguments as an invalid disputant is a last resort for people who hsve lost the argument.
Not really: One of the Charedi concerns about army service is that, they worked so hard to raise their child to be frum, who knows how frum he'll be after 2.5 years of army?
The only people who can assuage such concerns are people who care deeply about their children being frum, and nonetheless have no qualms about them serving in the IDF.
Wow, I didn't know that about R. Katz. Rabbi Slifkin certainly wouldn't go that far to the left.
He is a bit on the extreme, but I do think he is a serious talmid chacham. I wouldn't reject out of hand anything just because he said it.
He's definitely a contender (I know a student of his from back in his BP days), and I wouldn't blame anyone for ignoring him. To be fair, RYK is not as radical as much of the OO crowd. He even implicitly denounced a OO figure as a heretic.
>"Time and again, we hear charedi voices claiming that it’s all about people hating charedim and wanting to erase Torah [...]
It’s just bizarre. Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion?"
This fits a very common pattern in culture war issues, where people ascribe hidden hatred to the other side, and assume that the explicit claims are in bad faith, and not the true reasons
It's not hidden hatred, it's quite explicit. Attributing evil intentions to an entire population is hatred of that population, getting obsessed with these "criticisms" is a higher level of hatred, in fact it is precisely the type of hatred that most regular anti-semites engage in. On the other hand, what you are describing as "assume that the explicit claims are in bad faith" is EXACTLY what Slifkin does with the chareidim.
"Attributing evil intentions" - who attributed evil intentions? Citation needed.
"getting obsessed with these "criticisms" is a higher level of hatred" - there's no indication that it's hatred, as opposed to frustration. Anti semites believe in objective falsehoods, unlike R' Slifkin, so there's no analogy
-"assume that the explicit claims are in bad faith" is EXACTLY what Slifkin does with the chareidim" - 1) in my reading, he doesn't say that it's in bad faith, rather that they don't truly believe it, and are deceiving themselves. 2) he doesn't assume it, he proves it, based on their actions: asking the army for protection
"who attributed evil intentions? Citation needed."
Saying an entire population is selfish is attributing evil intentions, and is precisely the primary claim of anti-semites about Jews
"there's no indication that it's hatred, as opposed to frustration."
You can say that about any anti-semites, even Nazis? Maybe the anti-semites are just frustrated with Jewish selfishness? The Erez Nehederet clip was as bad as anything from Goebbels.
" Anti semites believe in objective falsehoods"
Not necessarily at all. Most of their stuff is based objective truths, like the Jews are primarily interested in the welfare of other Jews, or the welfare Israel, or that Jews have disproportionate control of the economy and politics, and wield that power for the benefit of other Jews or Israel. These are truths that are subject to interpretation, and the anti semites interpret them in the worst possible light. Precisely the same way anti chareidim interpret chareidi behavior.
"he doesn't assume it, he proves it, based on their actions: asking the army for protection"
He doesn't prove anything of the sort. It is much easier to prove anti-chareidi hatred than to prove what Slifkin thinks he is proving.
Oh, did somebody mention anti semitism? I have just the post for you! A film review! Enjoy!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-review-of-jud-su-veit-harlan-1940
-"Saying an entire population is selfish is attributing evil intentions". No it's not, evil and selfish are two very different things. 'evil' is "Intending to harm" (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/evil) . R' Slifkin never said that they're intending to do harm; rather, harm is the unintended consequence of selfishness.
-"These are truths that are subject to interpretation, and the anti semites interpret them in the worst possible light." - you're strongly misrepresenting the amount of objective falsehoods that the avg anti-Semite today believes. They don't simply believe "that Jews have disproportionate control of the economy and politics" (an objective truth), they typically believe much more than that: that these powerful (overwhelmingly secular) Jews conspire together to the detriment of non -Jews.
-"he doesn't prove anything of the sort". Actually, he does. See the previous post he linked to, about whether chareidim actually believe that Torah protects
"you're strongly misrepresenting the amount of objective falsehoods that the avg anti-Semite today believes."
I don't think so. Citation? But to be clear, you are ok with all the anti-semites who constantly point out the "selfishness" of the Jews (in that they are mostly concerned with the welfare of Israel or fellow Jews and use political and economic power to that effect)?
" that these powerful (overwhelmingly secular) Jews conspire together to the detriment of non -Jews."
Most of them claim that Jews collaborate with other Jews for the benefit of Jews as opposed to gentiles, a true fact. Calling it a "conspiracy" is an example of interpreting it in the worst possible light.
" Actually, he does."
Actually, he doesn't. His stupid, ignorant interpretation of something does not make a proof.
Re points #1 and #2, you're conflating American orthodox Jews and American secular Jews. Re #1, Orthodox Jews are indeed objectively (and proudly) "selfish", in the sense of mostly caring about their community, more so than secular Jews. I don't think it's anti semitic to point this out.
Re #2, American secular Jews don't secretly collaborate to promote Jewish interests, contrary to what the avg anti semites thinks.
Re #3, R' Slifkin indeed argues extensively, in great detail, that this isn't a true belief by the chareidim. Meaning (in my reading), that they're deceiving themselves. The strongest indication of this (in my opinion) is, in R' Slifkin's words: "charedim are not willing to stake anything at all on their purported belief that Torah protects" (https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah)
So unfortunately, from an analytical perspective, it's not 'bizarre', it's perfectly understandable.
From a psychological perspective, this phenomenon is primarily due to "fundamental attribution error", which is " a cognitive attribution bias where observers underemphasize situational and environmental factors for the behavior of an actor while overemphasizing dispositional or personality factors. In other words, observers tend to overattribute the behaviors of others to their personality (e.g., he is late because he's selfish) and underattribute them to the situation or context (e.g., he is late because he got stuck in traffic
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
What I find bizarre is how hypersensitive haredim like Banana are. Anything less than total fandom is lethal, scathing hatred. How on earth can an adult human being survive with such a thin skin? More like a junior high school girl than a mature grown up.
The hatred is not hidden. Frum internet fora are full of hate mongering against Medinat Yisrael and the IDF.
I'm referring to the supposed hatred discussed in the post: the supposed hatred of non-charedim for charedim
"It’s just bizarre. Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion? Is it really so difficult to understand that when most of the country is living at a time of funerals and hospitalizations and hundreds of thousands of men being away from their families and jobs and risking their lives, and the IDF declares that there is still a manpower shortage and people will have to spend additional months and years in the army beyond what they already contribute, that people want change from a community that absolves itself of sharing any such responsibility (and moreover demands to be paid for it)?!'
I made this point previously, but it seems the less religious people are, the more obsessed they are with chareidim. The blog Irrationalist Modoxim has articles from a soldier who makes this very point and claims that the more Torahdike the community, the less this is an issue for them and the more they appreciate the contribution that chareidim actually make. The most obsessed are the seculars, who of course hate chareidi society and everything it stands for, even besides the army issue. This includes you Slifkin. As I pointed out, you are far more obsessed with hatred of chareidim than with hatred of Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinians, Lebanes, Egyptians, etc. This indicates that your hatred stems from deep religious guilt more than the alleged fact that chareidim are putting an additional burden on you.
How exactly have you responded to his point?
"Are all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers who are calling for charedim to share the burden motivated by a hatred of religion?"
What does your point "the less religious people are, the more obsessed they are with chareidim." have to do with that, other than implying those dati-leumi roshei yeshiva and rabbanim and Torah-teaching mothers of soldiers are low on the scale of religious service?
My comment addresses that. What's "all the dati-leumi roshei yeshiva"? It depends on the level of observance. Those that are more goyishe tend to have more inflammatory rhetoric and obsession with chareidim. My observation. Coincidence?
It's a bit sad you think you have actually dealt with the point.
There are DL rabbonim who can knock the socks off most of Lakewood, yet believe chareidim should do something to assist - are they or are they not motivated by hatred for the charedi system?
"test," realize that this guy doesn't actually know people in the DL community, that's why he can make such ridiculous claims.
It's beyond "not knowing people in the Dati community".
It's not acknowledging the community's existence, and believing that those who claim to be DL are not really religious
Some of them are and some are not. Like, Slifkin is for sure not.
"There are DL rabbonim who can knock the socks off most of Lakewood'
Whataboutism.
"yet believe chareidim should do something to assist..are they or are they not motivated by hatred for the charedi system?"
Probably not hatred. But the most inflammatory voices definitely are. And those voices just tend to belong to the most secular people out there (with exceptions, of course). Coincidence?
"I think that I’ve covered most of the issues relating to this..." Ya think?
You should be very proud of yourself rabbi doctor! Fully covering one side of an issue! What an accomplishment!
Just remember folks, this is the same naar (fool) who thinks he's a bar plugta of Rashi, knows better than all the gedoei olam throughout the doros who unequivocally accepted the Zohar (again, he knows better than all of them), and doesn't understand why male masturbation is wrong.
But oh, we should take his word on this matter very strongly. *This time* he got it right!
They (and "they" includes Bibi) just thought that they could keep pushing it off. It even got pushed off (or, better, nothing got done about it) when Bennett and then Lapid were in charge. Maybe it just can't be pushed off any longer. We'll see.
"and that’s why ArtScroll will publish a book about the heroism of Hatzala medics"
Leaving aside the question of taste (publishing a book stressing "miracles" when so many were murdered- but then there are "miracle" books even about the Holocaust), let's be frank here: They also wouldn't publish a book about Magen David Adom. Hatzala is seen as "safe" because it is seen as not part of the "Zionist entity" and even "charedi". (In fact, Mada is also not a government body, Hatzala is also connected to the government as much as Mada is, and Hatzala is not, in fact, charedi- they even have Arab medics- but I am talking about public perception, especially among American Jews to whom "Hatzala" means something very specific.)
I'll take it a step further: There's a prominent family in my shul, Israelis and not charedim, who are very connected to Hatzala. A few years back "kochot habitachon" was added to the tefillah for Tzahal, to include I guess the Mossad and Police and so on. Fair enough, I suppose. Anyway, the members of this family have recently been adding more and more items to the tefillah, up to "anshei Hatzala." It was frankly getting a little ridiculous and political, but what really put it over the top for me was when they started adding "lomdei Torah" to the list.
Yeah, lomdei Torah really need protection from harm.
wait? they are actually now asking US to pray to God that he protect the Lomdei Torah from harm???? I thought that the whole self-exemption was based on the presumptive FACT that the Lomdei Torah are the ones protecting US from harm?!?! do these people even understand how twisted their rationale has become. That's it - I will no longer recite the first יקום פורקן. I had always thought we need to remove בבל only because it was obviously no longer relevant. But according to Charedi hashkafa, on a practical level, the entire tefilla is irrelevant as Torah Study is meant to protect and provide for EVERYTHING included in that prayer!!
That's an excellent point. Aside from the offensiveness of putting lomdei Torah in that tefillah, and the fact that they don't NEED protection, surely their whole claim is that THEY are the ones providing protection!
Not sure lomdei torah need a new prayer, or that the principle of there being such a prayer is offensive - there is already a pretty comprehensive prayer, namely Yekum Purkan, which asks for the protection, success, health, etc of lomdei torah amongst others:
יְקוּם פּוּרְקָן מִן שְׁמַיָּא חִנָּא וְחִסְדָּא וְרַחֲמֵי וְחַיֵי אֲרִיכֵי וּמְזונֵי רְוִיחֵי וְסִיַּעְתָּא דִשְׁמַיָּא וּבַרְיוּת גּוּפָא וּנְהורָא מַעַלְיָא. זַרְעָא חַיָּא וְקַיָּמָא זַרְעָא דִּי לָא יִפְסוק וְדִי לָא יִבְטול מִפִּתְגָּמֵי אורַיְתָא. לְמָרָנָן וְרַבָּנָן חֲבוּרָתָא קַדִּישָׁתָא דִּי בְּאַרְעָא דְיִשרָאֵל וְדִּי בְּבָבֶל לְרֵישֵׁי כַלָּה וּלְרֵישֵׁי גַּלְוָתָא וּלְרֵישֵׁי מְתִיבָתָא וּלְדַיָּנֵי דִי בָבָא. לְכָל תַּלְמִידֵיהון וּלְכָל תַּלְמִידֵי תַּלְמִידֵיהון וּלְכָל מַאן דְּעָסְקִין בְּאורַיְתָא. מַלְכָּא דְּעָלְמָא יְבָרֵךְ יַתְהון יַפִּישׁ חַיֵּיהון וְיַסְגֵּא יומֵיהון וְיִתֵּן אַרְכָא לִשְׁנֵיהון. וְיִתְפָּרְקוּן וְיִשְׁתֵּזְבוּן מִן כָּל עָקָא וּמִן כָּל מַרְעִין בִּישִׁין. מָרָן דִּי בִשְׁמַיָא יְהֵא בְסַעְדְּהון כָּל זְמַן וְעִדָּן. וְנאמַר אָמֵן:
The point is, according to a charedi perspective, this tefillah makes no sense. It's like a soldier asking a kid to protect him.
What a stupid comment. If so, the tefilah for the IDF also makes no sense, since the Zionists believe the IDF is really who provides the protection. But of course yeshiva students will pray for themselves and other yeshiva students, etc. Really shows how utterly clueless you are.
Uhm, religious Zionists who serve i the army pray because they believe in prayer. Many secular Zionists do so as well - as the saying goes “there are no atheists in foxholes” and every soldier understands that divine providence is needed.
The point is that charedim believe that Torah study is the SOLE method for achieving divine providence and protection. So why would they need to say this prayer? They should just continue on to the next tosafot or Rashi.
You really have no idea that all Religious Zionists, and a very large part of the non-dati population of Israel, believes that God protects our soldiers? Really?
You really don't know any Zionists, do you?
Reverse it. If Zionists say the prayer it means that they don't believe that it's the IDF that really provides the protection.
Everyone needs protection from harm. The Mi Sheberach for Tzahal is clearly intended as a request for God to protect specifically those people (soldiers, maybe some others) who consciously put themselves into the line of fire. Yeshiva students don't. That's not a dig against yeshiva students. Lots of people don't. And they don't belong in the tefillah either.
yes. but according to normative Charedi hashkafa, this prayer is unnecessary!!! it's even offensive as it's asking God to provide things that Charedim believe God provides by virtue of their Torah study!
If it makes you feel better, Sephardim don't recite either Yekum Purkan, as they were written (despite the reference to Bavel and the Aramaic) in Ashkenaz.
I think Sephardim (with the usual caveat that there is no single "Sephardim") only recite the Mi Sheberach for the Kahal on Shabbat Mevarchim, which is also the only time they recite the four Yehi Ratzons Ashkenazim say every Monday and Thursday. Sephardim of course never say Av HaRachamim, and their Mevarchim HaChodesh is basically one line. If only they wouldn't say every word out loud (a practice they actually got from Ashkenazim before Ashkenazim themselves dropped it) their tefillah would be really quick.
OK, so now what? It's the right thing for them to go, you have torah backing your argument (it's your interpritation and the gedolim will obvioulsy disagree), and the law will require it but guess what, fewer charedim will join as this will radecalize them even more. The approach is flawed and everyone knows it. You as an outsider cannot influence them and there is no leader amongst them who will stand up and demand change. This leads to the ONLY solution. $.
Correct, the only solution is $. And the only way that happens is if they are out of the government. And the only way that happens is if they become politically undesirable.
Exactly. Non-Charedim created this status quo by preferring that their politicians fund Charedim than that they form coalitions with non-Charedi ideological oppenents. If they didn't, it wouldn't keep happening. It's also difficult to change, because the short term cost of funding Charedim is often more tolerable than joining up with ideological opponents who differ on what are frequently matters of life and death, but if it doesn't change, the Charedi status quo won't either.
Nobody needs to coerce Charedim to do anything. If, for example, yeshivos whose talmidim do not serve in the army were denied government support, schools that do not teach a full secular studies curriculum were not funded by the government (as is the case in most countries), and those in kollel were denied financial incentives such as arnona discounts, change would come very quickly. Some Charedim might leave (if they are able to), whereas others would adjust. It is simply a matter of the rest of Israel having the stomach and stamina to impose these changes for an extended period.
Not the rest of Israel - all of the politicians.
You don't think Liberman and Lapid would jump to make a coalition with the charedim at the drop of a (black) hat?
If they would do so, it's because their voters are prepared to tolerate it and prefer it to the alternative.
The hatred of Bibi is so extreme, yes, they would.
One of the "pro-hostage" demonstration leaders was recently asked, after he said that the hostages should be freed "at all costs," if that included the possibility of Bibi staying in power for a few more years if they were freed. He said no.
Which is not the same as saying that they support it - and as long as they calm down before the next elections there will be no consequences for going against the will of their voters.
Raise army wages. Lower stipends for learning. The less adept learners can earn a salary in the IDF and give most of it to their brethren who are learning. In other words, the learners can come around to their homes to beg, instead of to the homes of people who are not earning their normal income because they are serving.
In a way, I respect Satmar more, because while they don't recognize the State, at least they refuse to take money from it either.
Except most of those who claim not to take money from the State of course do.
Not to mention that they use State money pretty much every second, when they turn on their lights, open a faucet, walk on the sidewalk, go to the hospital...and benefit from the protection of the military.
That's the argument put forth by Moshe Ber Beck in his oddly titled קומי צאי מתוך ההפכה. Not only is it a cardinal sin to live in Israel because of הנאה you mention, there's also the issue of paying taxes to the ממשלת זדון which is unavoidable when it comes to the sales tax.
Nebach. But of course he's correct,
"My answer was that they don’t have a vision or plan or anything.... Plans, like laws, are for goyim."
No. They simply don't relate to the concept of plans. The widescale abandonment of ישוב ארץ ישראל and leaving it to the secular is one of the causes of our woes today. Plans are not somehow חוקות הגויים. Plans are complex and require in depth evaluation with a vision for generations beyond immediate expediency. And the consequences of deciding incorrectly can be enormous. Plans involve compromises, contingencies, risks and the inevitable choice between rock and a hard place when real world constraints roll in like a juggernaut. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.) So it's best to avoid making plans and trot out the good ol' reliable שב ועל תעשה. That way no wrong has actively been done, and there's the delectable fringe benefit of blaming someone else when all goes to pot.
What will UTJ do now? Well, that's going to take some planning.
Charedi insouciance about the fate of Israel is not merely a reluctance to plan ahead, but also a feeling that they could ultimately get by somewhere else.
You can lead a perfectly Charedi life in Lakewood, Kiryas Yoel, Antwerp, or Stamford Hill. Whether or not it would be feasible for hundreds of thousands of Charedim to move elsewhere is open to question, but if Israel did collapse, and its remaining Jewish residents faced the threat of imminent massacre, it is plausible that they would find refuge somewhere, just as many Syrian refugees did.
While Charedim are happy to live in Israel and to benefit from all the funding and other resources the state provides, they are mostly not invested in the success of the state, or the Zionist enterprise in general. They're invested in keeping the Charedi enterprise going, and that can be done elsewhere.
What the non-Charedi majority should do about this is another question, but recognising the basis of Charedi opposition to what Israeli non-Charedim consider fundamental civic duties is a start.
>"Charedi insouciance about the fate of Israel is not merely a reluctance to plan ahead, but also a feeling that they could ultimately get by somewhere else."
That claim was indeed made by R' Yosef recently, and was analyzed by R' Slifkin in a different post. Bottom line, it's not a very serious argument, for a variety of reasons. Chareidim are in fact objectively far less mobile than the rest of Israeli society, primarily due to their poverty, large families, and lack of marketable skills
"Chareidim are in fact objectively far less mobile than the rest of Israeli society, primarily due to their poverty, large families, and lack of marketable skills"
Maybe on an individual level, but on a communal level, they are far better at working systems and taking advantage of loopholes than most other populations. I wrote previously that probably thousands could take advantage of Poland's right to citizenship for those with Polish ancestry (which as far as I can tell, doesn't require marketable skills). There's a good chance they could argue for refugee status for religious persecution to get into the US (and there are plenty of chareidi lawyers who would be willing to help them).
"they are far better at working systems and taking advantage of loopholes than most other populations. "
Sounds like a slur against Charedim. One can never pierce the anonymity of the blog comment section, but that comment betrays you as a cynical OTDer posing as Charedi. (Or it could be a case of justified paranoia)
or a real charedi who doesnt knowhow bad he is making charedim look. common phenomenon
This is not an insult. There is nothing wrong with working systems or using loopholes for legitimate purposes, this is literally what a large portion of most economies are built on.
Those are interesting points and speculations. I recently read a very good book on migration. He makes the point that as a general rule, only a very small percentage of people migrate, even in fairly extreme circumstances. My guess is that even charedim getting drafted wouldn't be extreme enough to have much of an impact on charedi emigration. Some equilibrium will be found, practically and ideologically.
Another point: this isn't a perfect analogy, but the reality is that during the Holocaust, the Orthodox were probably the most affected. Of course, the American orthodox population is now far larger and more powerful, but I think you may be overrating just how relevant "working systems and loopholes" would be relevant in case of migration
It is speculation, but no less speculation than the speculation that chareidim will allow themselves to be drafted. As for the Holocaust, that's a good point, but I think most of the Orthodox didn't want to leave until it was too late.
"I wrote previously that probably thousands could take advantage of Poland's right to citizenship "
Ok. You've managed to evacuate thousands. What about the other 99%?
Nonsense. There will be no en masse Charedi emigration. They didn't leave when Paula Ben Gurion was running things, and they won't leave now.
Why do you think only 1% of chareidim have Polish ancestry? Does this sound like a reasonable assumption? Just based on a quick mental survey of chareidim I know (which doesn't include many chassidim) it's probably closer to 50%. I would be interested in accurate numbers though. But for the rest there is my other suggestion, which I think has a strong chance of success.
"They didn't leave when Paula Ben Gurion was running things, and they won't leave now."
They didn't threaten to leave when Ben Gurion was running things, and they had just recently suffered the Holocaust and were trying to rebuild. In 2024 it is a matter of the seculars trying to destroy everything the chareidim built, the entire yeshiva world, their entire chinuch system. Chareidim will do whatever they can to preserve it. If they don't emigrate, they will find a different way to not have their children conscripted. They will go to jail rather than enlist. Or... what would happen, for example, if a bunch of chareidi bochurim were forcibly drafted and highly resented this, and something really bad happened in that unit, and the chilonim had second thoughts about conscripting chareidim? Just thinking aloud here.
"Or... what would happen, for example, if a bunch of chareidi bochurim were forcibly drafted and highly resented this, and something really bad happened in that unit,..." You mean what if they allowed themselves to be slaughtered by the enemy? Their choice, I suppose, but sounds a lot like suicide.
Not what I had in mind, but sure, nothing good will come of drafting people who see the draft as shmad.
"Why do you think only 1% of chareidim have Polish ancestry?"
You've lost the plot. YOU wrote "thousands". You should used another number.
" If they don't emigrate..."
You've lost the plot. The topic was whether there will be a mass emigration of Charedim. You insist there will be and you've only come up with Poland. And who is going to guarantee that they won't be drafted in Poland? There was compulsive service until recently. With the region heating up, polls show poles want a return to the draft.
So again. It's a fantasy, drushed up by Rav Yosef (and some years ago by the Brisker) and cherished by secularists. But it's not going to happen.
"You insist there will be "
False. You enjoy lying, don't you? Almost an addiction at this point?
"You insist there will be and you've only come up with Poland"
Also false. I also suggested they could argue for religious persecution, which they there is a good chance they could successfully pull off.
" It's a fantasy"
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. But it's a much bigger fantasy to think the chareidim will be drafted en masse.
I'm not sure the relative immobility of Charedim is sufficient to generate an ideological commitment to Israel's success.
To their minds, they've managed until now, and, if push comes to shove, they'll manage elsewhere. And I'm not sure they're wrong either: perhaps America would take them in if Israel failed and they were on the verge of being exterminated by the Palestinians and their Iranian backers.
I'm also not convinced that the majority of Charedim would leave Israel merely due to the draft issue, though it's unlikely that the rest of Israel has the stomach to force yeshiva bochurim into the army en masse in any case.
I think you're overrating how much thought the chareidim put into the future consequences of the status quo. This is a point made by R' Slifkin in a previous post about R' Steinman, about the myth of a secret "plan". Chareidim have no plan, they just want to continue the status quo
Right, but part of the reason they are so invested in the status quo is their lack of commitment to Israel's success as non-Charedim see it, in terms of it having a flourishing economy or Jewish self-determination more broadly.
"Charedi insouciance about the fate of Israel is not merely a reluctance to plan ahead, but also a feeling that they could ultimately get by somewhere else. "
More like lack of a feeling that they couldn't make it elsewhere. The implication would be that there's plenty of countries freely offering visas/citizenship, an Emma Lazarus poem and a guaranteed fifteen percent representation in an evenly split legislature. ליורד בחומה, is nothing but fanciful אגדה. And we all know what Herzl said about אגדות.
"Whether or not it would be feasible for hundreds of thousands of Charedim to move elsewhere is open to question"
It's a closed question whose answer is "no".
"They're invested in keeping the Charedi enterprise going, and that can be done elsewhere."
The Charedi enterprise elsewhere is anathema to the Charedi enterprise here.
Regarding 2, yes there is no plan. Charedim oppose the idea of building a Jewish state in the land of Israel, or anywhere else, and therefore do not have a plan for how to make this state work. Maybe Charedim are wrong and building a country surrounded by hundreds of millions of incensed low IQ crazy people who want to murder you, being an international pariah state, and fighting wars for ever is actually a really good idea. But Charedim do not agree, and thus do not have to form a plan for how to make this thing work.
" Charedim oppose the idea of building a Jewish state in the land of Israel, or anywhere else"
Palm Tree?
"and therefore do not have a plan for how to make this state work."
The prohibition of grilling a cheeseburger does not negate the knowledge to do so. A Charedi minister in charge of safety standards would be required to exercise his duties faithfully whether the regulations he implements apply to a בית מדרש or a movie theater or a mixed swimming pool. What you are attempting to excuse is any incompetence or even any malevolent sabotage. Not only is what your claiming nonsensical, it doesn't reflect Charedi thinking.
" Maybe Charedim are wrong and building a country surrounded by hundreds of millions of incensed low IQ crazy people who want to murder you, being an international pariah state, and fighting wars for ever is actually a really good idea."
I doubt you're representing Charedim with that statement.
As to your first point, Kiryas Yoel is not an independent state, it is a semi-autonomous area of Jewish settlement. This is the principle model by which Jews have lived for 2,000 years. Many people claimed that in the modern era such a model was unsustainable, but it turned out they were wrong and, when the facts change, rational people change their mind.
Your second point is ridiculous. Of course, it doesn't *preclude* knowing how to make a cheeseburger, but if someone demanded of me that I gave them a good cheeseburger recipe, it would be completely reasonable for me to respond that, this having no relevance to my life in any way, I have never given the issue any thought.
Your third point though is correct. Many Haredim, and among under 40s a clear majority, have become de facto Zionists with incoherent and unprincipled reasons why they don't have to do the whole package. The correct response, however, is not for Charedim to go all in in the failed ideology of Zionism (still less the literally crazy ideology of Religious Zionism), but to return to the authentic way of the Hazon Ish.
wasn't Chazon Ish a quasi Zionist?
Interesting discussion in the comments. But, as the Shegetz mentioned, up until 6 months ago the plan was for a small, smart military force, the army service was shortened, there was a talk about Israel abolishing the draft and switching to a professional army and now suddenly there is a manpower crisis? What does it say about the leadership both civilian and military of the country? In my layman's opinion they have demonstrated their incompetence. The response since Oct. 7 was another failure. Drafting the charedim, which will not happen, will not solve the flaws of the Israeli political system. Can Israel succesfully deal with the current crisis? I don't think it can. Simon Peres' and Slifkin's 'The New Middle East' is upon us.
Israel is facing a lot of challenges in light of the failures that leads to Oct. 7 drafting charedim will not solve all of these problems. But it will help with the radically increased in man power needs of the IDF. That would be one less problem. If you think Israel is doomed one way or another and any actions are futile, fine. are you advocating that we all leave Israel?
I advocate rational thinking. Charedi draft, which will not happen, should be put off until the present crisis is resolved. Chaos, civil unrest, government collapse, elections, a new government, which will be no less incompetent and unable to deal with the issues facing the country are in the interest of the Israeli enemies and give them stregth.
Slifkin is an irrational hate monger and rabble rouser. Just like he lionized Peres and Rabin, who were telling us that Arafat was going to fight terrorism in the New Middle East, he is now irrationaly obsessed with the charedi draft. The results will be
the opposite of what he thinks.
When did I lionize Peres and Rabin?
Well, you did visit the 'elder statesman' and wrote a lauding post about him, but I don't remember exactly. If you say that you didn't, so be it and I take my words back.
Here's what he wrote:
"While I certainly don't agree with Peres' political views, and I was never happy with him as a politician, I think that he is excellent and invaluable to Israel as a president. "
On that sentiment, it would profit us if we had 120 presidents.
Ok ok, I was wrong, my appologies.
"The resolution allowing charedim to avoid the draft is expiring..."
What? Again? Yawn. This headline has been repeated like every year or so over the last 25 years.....
We should try talking in terminology familiar to the Haredim: "Loshon Hora".
It is Loshon Hora to say "the reason non-religious people want me to get drafted is because they hate me".
It is Loshon Hora to pick a few defects of the non-Haredi world, or let's say a few nasty things said by deceitful non-Haredi politicians, and make sweeping generalizations and claim that the *whole* non-Haredi world is anti-Torah, corrupted, and united against the Haredim.
They will goute you the chafetz chaim who says the issur of LH doesnt apply to those who hate Torah. You are in a "No True Scottsman" loop.
The problem with the deadline idea is that successive govts have been kicking the can down the road for years now. At most, the stipends will be reduced or removed over a period of time and I have a feeling that won't stand politically. We'll see.
A question for those who believe that the desire to draft the Chareidim is primarily due to hatred/a desire to destroy the Chareidi lifestyle: How would you explain the motivations of the approximately twenty-nine percent of the *Chareidi* public who support enlistment? Or the approximately seventy percent who support military or other national service for those not actively learning?
The source for this data is https://machon.org.il/en/expressing-identification-with-israeli-society-and-supporting-increased-enlistment-to-the-idf-survey-results/ . Earlier, pre-October 7 surveys generally showed somewhat smaller percentages in favor.
I don't know about the quality of this poll, but speaking for myself and the people I know, granted we are a rebellious bunch, many of us, myself included, think that serving in the army and getting basic education would have been a good idea for the charedim. The way things are it should not happen, it cannot happen and it will not happen. Slifkins rabble rousers dominate the discourse and the voices of reason are not listened to.
That's sort of like asking "for those who believe that opposition to Israel's behavior is primarily rooted in anti-semitism, how would you explain the motivations of the percentage of *Jews* who oppose Israel's behavior?"
Hopefully you can answer the question yourself.
"That's sort of like asking.. " a different question.
Or not. But you were asked to answer. Not to reduce it to an already unsolved problem on a completely different topic.
First, I wouldn’t equate the two, because while self-identification as Jewish is, in the polls, primarily a function of descent rather than behavior or belief, self-identification as Chareidi is connected with a particular set of behaviors and beliefs.
Second, I think that a person to whom your second question would apply would either respond that there are many antisemitic Jews or that the anti-Israel Jews are for some reason the exception.
Anyway, is it your position that something like twenty-nine percent of Chareidim hate the Chareidi community writ large, or wish to destroy the Chareidi lifestyle? And if not, what percentage would you put it at?
'For the people defending the charedi position, what’s their vision for how Am Yisrael should conduct itself? Meaning if they could snap their fingers and everyone fell into line, would all adult males be learning full-time in kollel? Would it be an all-female workforce? Have they worked out the economic viability of this ideal?"
Of course they haven't. And anyway, that arrangement has never existed in the entire history of the Jewish people.
"That’s the whole problem - they have a shtetl mentality, and they don’t know how to scale up for being a large and growing proportion of the country. They don’t even think about it. The whole idea of having a large-scale vision or plan is alien to their way of thinking. Plans, like laws, are for goyim."
Spot on. They simply have no conception of what it takes to run a society and civilization. Golus is probably mostly to blame, except they haven't noticed that it's not Poland in 1547 anymore. A few years ago, I read a (mild) rebuke to this effect in a frum publication with regard to the haphazard and thoughtless way Lakewood was being developed, though maybe it's better now.
So now a Sepharadi Chareidi Rosh Yeshiva is saying that even Chareidim who don't really learn also shouldn't be drafted, as even they provide protection in their sometimes learning, and sometimes davening, and sometimes not sinning.
https://www.ynet.co.il/judaism/article/bk9t9czy0
In his world the Chayyalim are some sort of "other", and the DL community doesn't seem to exist