While I appreciate these talmidei chachamim speaking to our community in a reasonable way, I think they would be better off focusing on the problems in their own community, which are far worse. The fact is that they have failed to balance both the Torah and Zionism while upholding the integrity of the Torah. Zionism is a far greater value to them, which is why these communities have much worse observance and a much greater OTD rate than chareidim. Let them rectify their own problems before they preach to us.
"While I appreciate these talmidei chachamim speaking to our community in a reasonable way, I think they would be better off focusing on the problems in their own community, which are far worse. The fact is that they have failed to balance both the Torah and Zionism while upholding the integrity of the Torah. Zionism is a far greater value to them, which is why these communities have much worse observance and a much greater OTD rate than chareidim. Let them rectify their own problems before they preach to us."
The only reason why I am not deleting this comment is that you do such an excellent job of illustrating the utter moral, intellectual and religious bankrupcy of the charedi world.
In general, I would agree with you. Why try to solve the problems of someone else's kehilla when we should look inwards to solve our own issues? But that's not the case here... this isn't a limited Charedi issue, it's affecting Klal Yisroel as a whole. This is creating yesomim and almanos. This is giving sonei Yisroel an advantage. This is destroying parnassah and families. The decisions of the Charedim are not just affecting the Charedim, are not just problems for themselves... but in a very tangible way it is causing great harm to everyone.
And it seems you agree... because the last line of defense against criticism, when you have no rebuttal against the content themselves, then you obfuscate and misdirect and ignore the truth by saying "well, you shouldn't be saying it anyways."
BH... the truth is coming out, and Charedim are finding it more and more difficult to defend the current situation... slowly slowly we are all recognizing that this is not only unfair and unsustainable, but it is not the Torah and Halacha way. IyH change will happen before too many almanos and yesomum are create. Hashem yeracheim aleinu.
I would argue that chareidim are helping prevent yesomim and almanos, because in the zechus of their Torah, they are protecting the army. Rav Dov Landau said this. I really doubt that there would be less future yesomim and almanos if 50,000 chareidim joined the army today, but there would definitely be massive harm to Judaism.
Ein somchin al haneis. We do have a Mesorah that zechus of Talmud Torah is essential to the war effort but we don't know how it works. Is it one to one? Every single person learning adds protection? The strong learners and the weak ones? Or do we need a minimum, a constant kol Torah of some individuals, maybe just the strongest individuals to support the hamon am who are serving? Or maybe we davka need the zechus of Torah in the soldiers themselves... we need the learners to be the ones on the front lines! I guarantee you'll find sources for any of these approaches.
But ein safek yotzi midei vadai... we know more soldiers will mean fewer fathers will have to serve .We know more soldiers will mean that each indivdual soldier will be able to spend less time on the front. That the individual soldiers will have the time to return to their families, to save their business, and yes... return to the Beis Medrash. The more soldiers there are means the fewer exhausted and drained soldiers we have. We will have better fighters, a stronger front, and fewer deaths.
Torah protects, but unless we know exactly how it works, we cannot abandon our base obligations to fight for Klal Yisroel when our enemy is at the gates. We can't abandon teva and assume that the situation will only get worse if we change what we do. We can't be someich and the neis of Talmud Torah. We wouldn't do that if someone was sick and needs to go to the hospital, we wouldn't do it if someone is in acute and critical danger, and that is the situation now..
It's not somchin al haneis if there is an army. True, we don't know exactly how talmud Torah protects. It's definitely not necessarily the zechus of the Torah of the soldiers themselves. But we don't know exactly how the army protects either. Does every additional soldier mean one more dead enemy? Or one less casualty? Or one day closer to complete victory? We have no clue.
And what's the sofek here and what's the vadai? The sofek is that adding thousands of more chareidi soldiers pulled from the Bais Medrash will decrease casualties and increase victories. I find that dubious in the extreme. The vadai is massive and irreparable damage on the yeshiva system and Judaism as a whole. But I agree that 100% we should push the non-learners to serve in a suitable religious environment. And there are thousands of non-learning chareidim.
You just don't get it. It's a VADAY that the dati men won't have to spend so long away from their learning and jons and wives and kids! It's a VADAY that the risks of injury and worse will be evenly spread across the entire nation, instead of all being on one community!
Neither of those are really a vadai, but even more than that, the vadai of destroying the yeshiva system is much more dangerous. I know you don't value the Torah at all, but even somebody like that ought to understand that this is a real danger to those who do value the Torah.
The truth is, I think you're right. I don't know if more soldiers will prevent death (the only argument I have is that it will allow existing soldiers to take more breaks and be less exhausted on the front`... will that save lives? It's logical but I don't know).
But there are other vadais associated with more soldiers. More soldiers will mean current soldiers will have to serve less and they will be able to save their failing businesses. More soldiers will mean current soldiers will have to serve less and relieve the stress on living widows and orphans who have been running a household by themselves without their husbands. And more soldiers can even mean more Torah... Charedim leaving the yeshiva and going to the army will mean that hesder students can go back to the yeshiva for part of the year.
I don't think the vadai is that the army will be stronger and we will have more success against our enemies. I think the vadai is that our soldiers who sacrifice and risk so much will be much better off when that terrible burden is able to be shared among more of us.
And your vadai... that it will cause irreparable damage to the yeshiva system? I think that's dubious. Bnei Torah who go to the army will come back to the yeshiva. Just like Hesder talmidim. Has the Hesder yeshiva system been irreparably damaged by the war? I guess we'll see when the war is over, but I highly doubt it... and if done properly, the Charedi yeshiva system won't suffer irreparable damage either.
There are some chareidi hesder yeshivas already. I guess we will see how the products of those turn out. Not just them personally but their children. If they manage to hold onto their strict chareidi observance and Torah values, then I can see many other chareidim being attracted to this and joining them.
As long as the yesomim and almanos only come from the evil dati leumi and chiloni community right? Really convenient that the essential work of charedim also means their sons are safe from dying in service of protecting the nation.
Don't you realise how selfish and cowardly these arguments sound?
"Sound"? To what extent should we care how we "sound" to people who are very far from the Torah? To people who are "Reformed Hegelians"? To people who have absolutely no clue? Should soldiers care how they "sound" to the protesters at Columbia University? Maybe we should care a little, but definitely not live our lives by that.
So first of all, I've spent several years in Yeshiva, first high school then hesder. Not exactly "absolutely no clue".
But fine, reasons the charedi world needs to care about how they're perceived by the non-charedi world:
1. Politics
The Charedi parties rely on cooperation and coalitions from the dati leumim and the traditional sephardi communities. Both historical were critical allies for charedi political power and both overrepresented in the army (and in war fatalities). As these communities lose their respect and patience for charedim their politicians will rightfully stop seeing them as political partners but rather rivals and will prefer making coalitions with people like Yair Lapid and Leiberman screwing over the charedim.
2. Kiruv:
The average secular jew is far less likely to embrace a life of torah and mitzvot if they perceive the charedi world as selfish and cowardly. Especially if they've lost friends and family in recent wars.
3. Chinuch:
Haredi children aren't blind and can tell how pathetic and cowardly the refusal to serve appears to the rest of Israel. Now that it's clear how short on manpower the army is, their love and respect for their community and way of life is taking a serious hit. Expect many more children leaving the derech.
For those same reasons you should also care about how you're perceived by the Columbia protesters.
. But clearly there are much more important priorities, right? As for your prophecy about many chareidi children leaving the derech, the chilonim have been screaming the same complaints for the last 70 years and chareidim only grew.
Then why did the Charedi political leadership insist that Yeshiva students abandon their studies to join the army while at the same time non-learners in their community continue to shirk their duty?
Fishburg: Don't you know that every single non-religious jew in the world whether in Israel or in the diaspora has yichus from truly religious ancestors. Where did they the holy ancestors go wrong? The Chaffetz Chaim Rabbi Akiva Eiger, Rashi, Rambam have irreligious offspring. As does the Baal Shem tov, the Magid and Rav Chaim Volozhiner and the Gaon. Your statement differentiating between sectors of Shomrei Torah is not a valid one.
Ok? And what's your point? That we should set up a chinuch system in which 50% of our youth go OTD, like most of the Dati community has? No, we are not doing that.
That we should set up a chinuch system in which 50% of our youth go OTD, like most of the Dati community has? -- Made up statistics and Motzei Shem Rah of an entire community. A Bizayon.
I appreciate your passion for this topic and your commitment to your beliefs. However, I feel that our discussion might benefit from a more analytical approach. Torah study and the concept of pikuach nefesh (preservation of life) are indeed serious matters that require careful consideration.
It's important to recognize that there are diverse interpretations among Jewish scholars and students of Torah. When discussing such significant issues, it's crucial to approach them with a balance of intellectual rigor and respect for different viewpoints.
Perhaps we could revisit this topic by focusing on specific textual references or scholarly interpretations. This approach might lead to a more productive dialogue and help us both gain new insights. I'm open to hearing your perspective if you'd like to share any particular sources or reasoning that inform your position.
Let's continue this conversation in a spirit of mutual learning and respect for the complexity of Torah study.
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The problem is that you think the communities are separate. Instead of recognizing "our problems", you denigrate a groups of Jews that you think are beneath you. We are all ovdei hashem and our fates and tied together within the State of Israel. Your behavior is preventing the coming of Mashiach. May G-d grant you the wisdom to do Teshuvah.
"I think they would be better off focusing on the problems in their own community"
I take it that you've been following these רבנים very closely, reading their writings and listening to their lectures. After doing so, you have categorized the topics and have determine that they indeed have not sufficiently dealt with problems in their own community. Please share the statistics of your findings with us.
The debate currently going on is that the Charedim want to get their subsidies while staying in Yeshiva and not drafting. The Charedi parties don't want to give up the subsidies.
Then why don't they demand there constituents join the army right now, so they all get full benefits? Right now they live in poverty and get a smidgeon. They could be so much more wealthy!
I didn't listen to the audio yet, but on the first letter, it's so simple that there is milchemes mitzvah today? (It's not.) And even if it does apply (it very much may), does that mean there are no other legitimate reasons within a Torah framework to navigate the system carefully and not act to hasty at risk of jeopardizing charedi values? There are clear halachos on how the chachmei hatorah of every generation have the right to make decisions to uphold the upkeep of Torah. I'm not sure why it's a "distortion of Torah" just because things are more complicated and grey.
That said, most people here know position that there absolutely needs to be a change within the Charedi community and it's truly not right that they are living a different life and not sharing the burden. But the lack of understanding, while understandable from the hamon am (I can even justify anger on their part), from a Rosh Yeshiva who is representing torah, is sad.
What this means to me is that we need to work on a compromise much faster. Honestly, if the army was full of people like Rav Tamir, that would make things a lot simpler. While we probably still wouldn't dive in headfirst due to many impactful complications, major compromises would be made. The honest truth, however, is that the army is not full of people like him and that slows down the process.
I want to clarify two things:
1. There’s some confusion here because not all gedolim are in complete agreement. Some firmly believe that compromise is still not an option. Reb Shmuel zt”l and his followers hold this view, and honestly, it’s possible we need their stance to ensure we don't compromise too far. Many others, probably most, feel differently but understand that we can’t just abandon core principles. That leads to the second point -
2. Unlike in a monarchy where decisions are made swiftly—קסם על שפתי מלך—in a democracy, we’re all familiar with the painstaking layers of red tape. Changes at the highest levels happen slowly as everyone’s voice is considered. Until October 7, 2023, it wasn’t clear there was a pressing need for change; the charedi way of life had its vital role. Now it’s evident things have shifted (or were this way all along), and it’s time for the charedi community to consider prioritizing certain values over others that may have been easier to ignore in the past. But change is incremental, and while it can be frustrating, it’s the only sustainable way forward. Recordings like this are part of this internal process, and people should listen and share. But at the same time, they need to understand that societies don’t change overnight. (The same could be said about the DL community, which has strengthened its Torah commitment gradually over years. The founding of the Hesder Yeshivos and the growth of talmidei chachamim are major achievements. But this progress has taken decades. If it went faster everyone would be chareidi!) To the contrary, rapid change could have unintended negative effects. And changes and discussions are taking place in the Knesset at the highest levels, coming from the charedi gedolim like Reb Moshe Hillel Hirsch.
So please keep sharing these recordings, as they will help—albeit slowly—to inspire change. And it's true that many charedim are ignorant of how dire the situation is. But it’s crucial for people to understand that this process takes time. The values charedim are upholding matter deeply, and any transition has to be handled with delicacy.
After this weekend, something snapped in the DL community, and I think in general Israeli society.
One of the teachers who was killed is my son's neighbor.
The soldier from Tzefat, a friend of another son.
I've heard horrible anecdotal stories about the numbers of divorces among families where the husband was away in Miluim for much of the year.
Last winter, the readjustments of families when the husband came home after 3 months were the subject of cute videos and spoofs. Now, no one is laughing, as the cost are becoming clear.
If the Hareidim were "just" weighing down the Israeli economy, we could take the slow approach to get them into the workforce.
But now, their refusal to serve is destroying too many Jewish families.
They have shown that they are simply not our brothers, and we will vote with our pocketbooks and at the ballot box to make that clear.
If the reality is that Oct 7 didn't wake up the Haredi world to dramatically change their attitude and policy maybe they're truly lost. Time is literally running out for them to prove they care about anyone but themselves. Why isn't this considered a crisis?
The sad truth is that it's not the people. They were simply betrayed by their blind rabbinic leaders and nobody's willing to admit that.
Yes. You don't save someone from a raging current if you don't know how to swim. You'll have to learn first. Risks yes, and some fail. But not suicide.
"The founding of the Hesder Yeshivos and the growth of talmidei chachamim are major achievements. But this progress has taken decades. If it went faster everyone would be chareidi!"
I am not sure this is true, but I do think that the assumption behind it is at the root of the argument.
If you're talking about the fact that if it went faster everyone would be charedi, I was mostly kidding. Point is societies can't and shouldn't just change on a dime.
It’s not just the rate of change. I don’t think the DL community or its religious leadership, no matter how observant or learned - would ever want to be charedi.
What do you think it means to be charedi? To me it's a hierarchy of values. People in this conversation (not you) who don't even know what the charedi values are have no business here. But if charedi values, like torah biyun because knowing what Hashem wants from up is the most important thing in the world, and dikduk bhalacha because caring about every detail of where He wants from us is the most important thing in the world, and the other such values, which although they are in no way exclusive to the charedim nor can we claim that all or maybe even to most charedim (idk the numbers at all. My personal opinion is that is working pretty well...), but as a society we are the protectors of these ideals. It comes with all kinds of problems and shortcomings including an elite ideal becoming a standard for the masses, and we absolutely must deal with our problems, but that hierarchy is not so hard to teach young people. If that were the direction people took to effect change, it would probably be at the expense of the other important DL values, no doubt.
So I guess to your point, the negatives of charedi society, sure, I'm not proud of them either. But the positives are things that, today, many DL communities have incorporated very strongly. Saying that "they would never want to be charedi," means they disagree with the package, and some worldview differences but at the heart we aren't all as different as people think.
Did you go through the sugya? The Ramban (shikchas halavin pg. 412 frankel Rambam) almost certainly holds that it does not apply today, Rabbeinu Yonah (sanhedrin 16a) has two clear צדדים (technically I personally think the Ramban could be interpreted like either of the צדדים of Rabbeinu Yonah which is why I said "almost" about the Ramban), and the Rambam's comments in his hakdama to sefer hamitzvos (pg. 202 frankel) may shed light on what his opinion is where (at least according to the Frankel גירסא) he says we don't have milchemes mitzvah today, even if we can only speculate as to why that would be so.
I'm not saying it's simple one way or the other but it's definitely not simple. If you want a more current posek who wasn't sure if it applies, Reb Moshe in CM vol. 2 siman 78 seems to hold it doesn't, and only when it's a sakana where there other factors such as lo saamod etc. do we go to war (the perspective of the link you shared is in conflict with Reb Moshe's assertion about Amalek btw). See there for yourself as there are others who (IMO mistakenly) read Reb Moshe differently.
Also take a look at the Tur, BY, Bach, SA Harav in OC beginning of siman 249 and Aruch Hashulchan there where the consensus seems to be that there is no milchemes mitzvah today. Again, don't quote me, look up the sources and we can have a proper debate. Each source needs time and discussion. And Reb Elyashiv is entitled to his opinion, as is Reb Moshe. But this is far from weird skepticism, denial and kvetchiness,
Well, I figured. It's easy to make chakiras about whether we're in a milchemet mitzvah when you didn't spend Erev Rosh Hashana in a bomb shelter because people are actively trying to kill you and your family.
You may have something there. The whole חקירה on מלחמת מצוה is so bizarre. It would be interesting to track down who exactly came with the notion that goes against Rav Elyashiv. Maybe you're right, and it came from some who is physically and emotionally distant from the danger.
Thanks. I only had a moment to look at the Ramban. In the context of his count of the 613, he's discussing whether there's a מצוה to consult with the אורים ותומים. The definition of what constitutes a מלחמת מצוה is at most tangential to the matter at hand. He doesn't say that there's no מלחמת מצוה today; that's the result of some latter-day tortured דיוק. You're phrase " almost certainly holds", despite its equivocation remains overreach. There is no "certainty" to a tortured דיוק on matters only tangential to the topic.
before I start I will say that wherever human pain and suffering is involved all talk might be insensitive but ההכרח לא יגונה so here goes
It seems like there is something fundamental missing in all these discussions about drafting charedim
notwithstanding all the official reasons the charedim don't join the army the simple truth and one that every charedi knows is the crux of the matter is that the way charedi society is structured for better or for worse is simply incompatible with intergration in to the military
intergration of the charedim into the army would cause deep fundamental change in the society as a whole as anybody who has an understanding of the society knows
and even a lot of charedim who are critical of charedi society still consider it for all kinds of reasons the society most alingned all in all with authentic judiasm and the most likely to preseve authentic judiasm because of that charedim just don't see going to the army as a realistic choice
I also want to point out that the fact is that no one in the charedi community forced the dati community to go to the army
from the charedi perspective the dati community decided based on their ideology that to serve in the army is a value and were always very enthusiastic about it while the charedim always considered that a mistaken view and thought that they too should not be in the army
I don't want to lengthen this with an analogy so think of one on your own
the point is to come running and say what's with you we're getting killed etc. a charedi would say get out of there why are you there in the first place
and don't answer with the tired arguement if not for us then who because then it would be a different situation and who knows
(for example it may be that then the religious would be so vital to the army that they would have more power to change the structure in ways that would be accomodating to the extent that it wouldn't impact the society the same way something impossible currently)
there is much more to be said and I am sure every point can be argued and counterargued just doing my part to bring clarity to this issue
"The misconception that learning Torah exempts one from army service is nothing less than a distortion of the halacha" contradicts the Gemara Nedarim 32a which says
מפני מה נענש אברהם אבינו ונשתעבדו בניו למצרים מאתים ועשר שנים מפני שעשה אנגרייא בתלמידי חכמים
"Why was Avraham our forefather punished and his children enslaved to Egypt for 210 years? Because he made angaria (Rashi: brought out to war) talmiday chachamim."
And that is about Eliezer who was an EVED KNAANI talmid chacham!
(2)
"...legislation that permanently exempts Torah students from military service is a betrayal of the values of religious Zionism"
Straight from his own mouth: It is a "betrayal of the values of RELIGIOUS ZIONISM". But it is not a betrayal of the values of the religion of the Torah, only a betrayal of the values of those who force Zionism into their Torah.
Please bring halachic sources. It is a debate in Rishonim if Avraham Avinu has the law of Jew! Certainly not the law of Am Yisroel the nation of Yisrael. The Halachic sources are clear, with some disputes. There is no clear basis for a draft for True Talmidei chachamim when there no war or threat of war.. However All talmidei Chachamim, Rabanim, Rosh Yeshivos and Shovavim must fight an actual milchemes Mitzva. This is not disputed in halachic sources.
There is no halachic source that everybody must fight in a milchemes mitzvah. If that's what הכל יוצאין meant, it wouldn't be only Israelis. All Jews in chu"l would be obligated also. Clearly, even you don't take your own unsourced statements seriously.
Contemporary authorities? You want to rely on contemporary authorities? All my contemporary authorities for the past 70 years have said yeshiva students are exempt from the draft.
You asked about Jews in חו"ל and I answered. Your reliance on certtain authorities in regards to the Yeshiva draft in no way refutes the fact that contemporary authorities discuss the obligation of Jews in חו"ל. And it's not particularly relevant since they're addressing a different question. Stay focused and don't lose the plot.
No, the question was not about contemporary authorities but was about what classical halachic sources say. You moved the discussion to contemporary authorities. Reading comprehension, dude.
You are actually bringing up a good point. This point too is discussed in rishonim! The obligation of מִלְחֶמֶת מִצְוָה applies when וְעֶזְרַת יִשְׂרָאֵל מִיַּד צָר שֶׁבָּא עֲלֵיהֶם the place of צָר is in eretz yisroel and requires those in that predicament to fight the מִלְחֶמֶת מִצְוָה because they are able to join the war. See Rambam shabbos 2 , אם באו על עסקי נפשות, או שערכו מלחמה, או שצרו סתם, יוצאין עליהן בכלי זין ומחללין עליהם את השבת. ומצוה על כל ישראל שיכולין לבוא, לצאתא ולעזור לאחיהם שבמצור ולהצילן מיד הגויים בשבת,
see the words שיכולין לבוא who are able to come. Many righteous sensitive souls in Ch"ul who were able to come have contributed either by fighting or supplying material necessities. Supplying prayers , or dapay gemara just does not cut i if one is able "שיכולין לבוא"
You just made that up also. It never says "those in that predicament". The gemara and Rambam never makes an exception for those living in chu"l. Since when are people living in America not able to come?? It's literally a 12 hr flight! What a stupid excuse that shows how little substance your arguments have. The real truth is that הכל יוצאין doesn't mean everybody is obligated to join the battle,but just means those three categories of peturim are not pattur. But of course the king decides who joins and who doesn't, and we see he is punished if he drafts yeshiva students. Kal vchomer when there is no king but a government of kofrim.
Of course you don't need a melech, but there is also no rule that every single person in the city must join. Only those who are necessary.
The issues involved with chareidim are much more involved than modern Orthodox Americans by many orders of magnitude. I almost certainly know much more halacha than you, but this doesn't matter. If you want to appeal to vague "psak halacha" without giving your reasoning, then the discussion is over already. Because all chareidi poskim say yeshiva students are pattur.
Again please study the halacha. You seem to be not familiar with the sugya and are writing emotionally . This applies all over the world in Galus with no king at all.
Adraba. If there is a punishment for doing that with one pupil of a Torah chacham, kal vachomer there will be a punishment for doing it with lots of pupils of Torah chachamim.
The halacha limits מלחמת מצוה to attacks on ישראל, not ancestors of yet non-existing to-be converts.
You can do whatever you want with drush, and indeed I've seen that particular drasha elsewhere- if I recall correctly it was in שפע חיים by the Klausenberger Rebbe.
That's not fair. Ben-Gvir and his party have always been opposed to charedi exemptions, and yesterday MK Sukkot of Smotrich's party came out very strongly against them as well. Maybe it's a horrible result of what happened over the weekend, but one way or another, I'll take it. The exemption bill is dead; UTJ backed down. R' Goldberg's wife told off Amar at the shiva, bless her. If all they have left is daycare subsidies (which, yes, should also go), that's showing they're toast.
Yeah. Lying about someone, even if you don't particularly like them, to win an argument or make a point shouldn't be the way to go. Certainly not what I think of as the Jewish way.
There’s quite a differ between not drafting Israeli Arabs as a group due to (1) security reasons and (2) genuine conflicts between family ties to people one may be shooting at if drafted, on the one hand, and chareidi selfishness and timidity that a demands blanket exemption.
And of course many non-Jewish Israelis DO serve, whether as a group (Druze, Circassian) or as individuals or something in between (Bedouins of particular “tribes”).
And my impression is that the latter do not demand or get the same type of public support and benefits that chareidim do.
In fairness, Druze aren't Arabs, or at least don't see themselves as such. And they and Bedouin and Palestinian Christians and Muslims who serve (and God bless each and every one of them) are a very small percentage of Israeli Arabs.
I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I have a simple question. I agree that Rav Tamir Granot's video is very powerful. Has he attempted to discuss this directly with chareidim in leadership positions? If yes, what has the response been? If not, why not?
That statistic is a lie, it's way less, and in the header yeshivot less than 10%. If the chareidi community would bring in a few thousand soldiers the army would set up a brigade (or similar unit) for them giving them whatever reasonable religious conditions they wanted. The header yeshivot and similar programs are not perfect, nothing is, but are a very good model of how the chareidim could find a way to do the army. The current very low participation of the chareidim is highly irresponsible, irreligious and immoral
If slifkin would speak with the love and respect that these people speak with, maybe people would actually hear his message. Coming from a place of hate never works.
I'm sorry, apart from the completely inappropriate "Yes, but..." (which is *always* an even less appropriate whataboutism), this is nonsense on stilts. There's no way "more Tel Avivians dodge the draft than charedim" for the simple reason that charedim get a *blanket* exemption and secular Israelis don't. You can't get higher than 100%. (And even counting actual service, very few charedim do.)
In fact- and this is the most important point- secular Israelis (male and female) get *no* exemption at all, as a group, which is the whole issue here. Even if some secular people can't serve, or pretend not to be able to, that's something the IDF can and does deal with on an individual level. (Even dati women are considered individually.) This is beside the point, it's deflection, it's untrue, and it's apples and oranges.
It makes no difference to me whether you are measuring population percentage or persons. The problem of avoidance or exemption is there.
If clarification is needed, I said at the start of my original comment that I'm all for Haredim serving in the IDF. So you apparently have a problem with my comment's second sentence. What exactly is it? I want a level playing field, meaning there should be no special laws for anyone (except for Arabs). What do you want instead?
BTW, this shouldn't require passing new legislation. This should simply require annulling Ben Gurion's fixer-upper.
While I appreciate these talmidei chachamim speaking to our community in a reasonable way, I think they would be better off focusing on the problems in their own community, which are far worse. The fact is that they have failed to balance both the Torah and Zionism while upholding the integrity of the Torah. Zionism is a far greater value to them, which is why these communities have much worse observance and a much greater OTD rate than chareidim. Let them rectify their own problems before they preach to us.
"While I appreciate these talmidei chachamim speaking to our community in a reasonable way, I think they would be better off focusing on the problems in their own community, which are far worse. The fact is that they have failed to balance both the Torah and Zionism while upholding the integrity of the Torah. Zionism is a far greater value to them, which is why these communities have much worse observance and a much greater OTD rate than chareidim. Let them rectify their own problems before they preach to us."
The only reason why I am not deleting this comment is that you do such an excellent job of illustrating the utter moral, intellectual and religious bankrupcy of the charedi world.
Great, I'm glad your deluded little mind thinks that. Win win!
You are so far off base with your inane comments, it's very sad.
Truth hurts, right?
In general, I would agree with you. Why try to solve the problems of someone else's kehilla when we should look inwards to solve our own issues? But that's not the case here... this isn't a limited Charedi issue, it's affecting Klal Yisroel as a whole. This is creating yesomim and almanos. This is giving sonei Yisroel an advantage. This is destroying parnassah and families. The decisions of the Charedim are not just affecting the Charedim, are not just problems for themselves... but in a very tangible way it is causing great harm to everyone.
And it seems you agree... because the last line of defense against criticism, when you have no rebuttal against the content themselves, then you obfuscate and misdirect and ignore the truth by saying "well, you shouldn't be saying it anyways."
BH... the truth is coming out, and Charedim are finding it more and more difficult to defend the current situation... slowly slowly we are all recognizing that this is not only unfair and unsustainable, but it is not the Torah and Halacha way. IyH change will happen before too many almanos and yesomum are create. Hashem yeracheim aleinu.
I would argue that chareidim are helping prevent yesomim and almanos, because in the zechus of their Torah, they are protecting the army. Rav Dov Landau said this. I really doubt that there would be less future yesomim and almanos if 50,000 chareidim joined the army today, but there would definitely be massive harm to Judaism.
Ein somchin al haneis. We do have a Mesorah that zechus of Talmud Torah is essential to the war effort but we don't know how it works. Is it one to one? Every single person learning adds protection? The strong learners and the weak ones? Or do we need a minimum, a constant kol Torah of some individuals, maybe just the strongest individuals to support the hamon am who are serving? Or maybe we davka need the zechus of Torah in the soldiers themselves... we need the learners to be the ones on the front lines! I guarantee you'll find sources for any of these approaches.
But ein safek yotzi midei vadai... we know more soldiers will mean fewer fathers will have to serve .We know more soldiers will mean that each indivdual soldier will be able to spend less time on the front. That the individual soldiers will have the time to return to their families, to save their business, and yes... return to the Beis Medrash. The more soldiers there are means the fewer exhausted and drained soldiers we have. We will have better fighters, a stronger front, and fewer deaths.
Torah protects, but unless we know exactly how it works, we cannot abandon our base obligations to fight for Klal Yisroel when our enemy is at the gates. We can't abandon teva and assume that the situation will only get worse if we change what we do. We can't be someich and the neis of Talmud Torah. We wouldn't do that if someone was sick and needs to go to the hospital, we wouldn't do it if someone is in acute and critical danger, and that is the situation now..
It's not somchin al haneis if there is an army. True, we don't know exactly how talmud Torah protects. It's definitely not necessarily the zechus of the Torah of the soldiers themselves. But we don't know exactly how the army protects either. Does every additional soldier mean one more dead enemy? Or one less casualty? Or one day closer to complete victory? We have no clue.
And what's the sofek here and what's the vadai? The sofek is that adding thousands of more chareidi soldiers pulled from the Bais Medrash will decrease casualties and increase victories. I find that dubious in the extreme. The vadai is massive and irreparable damage on the yeshiva system and Judaism as a whole. But I agree that 100% we should push the non-learners to serve in a suitable religious environment. And there are thousands of non-learning chareidim.
You just don't get it. It's a VADAY that the dati men won't have to spend so long away from their learning and jons and wives and kids! It's a VADAY that the risks of injury and worse will be evenly spread across the entire nation, instead of all being on one community!
Neither of those are really a vadai, but even more than that, the vadai of destroying the yeshiva system is much more dangerous. I know you don't value the Torah at all, but even somebody like that ought to understand that this is a real danger to those who do value the Torah.
"But we don't know exactly how the army protects either. "
They take a weapon and kill the terrorist.
The truth is, I think you're right. I don't know if more soldiers will prevent death (the only argument I have is that it will allow existing soldiers to take more breaks and be less exhausted on the front`... will that save lives? It's logical but I don't know).
But there are other vadais associated with more soldiers. More soldiers will mean current soldiers will have to serve less and they will be able to save their failing businesses. More soldiers will mean current soldiers will have to serve less and relieve the stress on living widows and orphans who have been running a household by themselves without their husbands. And more soldiers can even mean more Torah... Charedim leaving the yeshiva and going to the army will mean that hesder students can go back to the yeshiva for part of the year.
I don't think the vadai is that the army will be stronger and we will have more success against our enemies. I think the vadai is that our soldiers who sacrifice and risk so much will be much better off when that terrible burden is able to be shared among more of us.
And your vadai... that it will cause irreparable damage to the yeshiva system? I think that's dubious. Bnei Torah who go to the army will come back to the yeshiva. Just like Hesder talmidim. Has the Hesder yeshiva system been irreparably damaged by the war? I guess we'll see when the war is over, but I highly doubt it... and if done properly, the Charedi yeshiva system won't suffer irreparable damage either.
There are some chareidi hesder yeshivas already. I guess we will see how the products of those turn out. Not just them personally but their children. If they manage to hold onto their strict chareidi observance and Torah values, then I can see many other chareidim being attracted to this and joining them.
As long as the yesomim and almanos only come from the evil dati leumi and chiloni community right? Really convenient that the essential work of charedim also means their sons are safe from dying in service of protecting the nation.
Don't you realise how selfish and cowardly these arguments sound?
"Sound"? To what extent should we care how we "sound" to people who are very far from the Torah? To people who are "Reformed Hegelians"? To people who have absolutely no clue? Should soldiers care how they "sound" to the protesters at Columbia University? Maybe we should care a little, but definitely not live our lives by that.
So first of all, I've spent several years in Yeshiva, first high school then hesder. Not exactly "absolutely no clue".
But fine, reasons the charedi world needs to care about how they're perceived by the non-charedi world:
1. Politics
The Charedi parties rely on cooperation and coalitions from the dati leumim and the traditional sephardi communities. Both historical were critical allies for charedi political power and both overrepresented in the army (and in war fatalities). As these communities lose their respect and patience for charedim their politicians will rightfully stop seeing them as political partners but rather rivals and will prefer making coalitions with people like Yair Lapid and Leiberman screwing over the charedim.
2. Kiruv:
The average secular jew is far less likely to embrace a life of torah and mitzvot if they perceive the charedi world as selfish and cowardly. Especially if they've lost friends and family in recent wars.
3. Chinuch:
Haredi children aren't blind and can tell how pathetic and cowardly the refusal to serve appears to the rest of Israel. Now that it's clear how short on manpower the army is, their love and respect for their community and way of life is taking a serious hit. Expect many more children leaving the derech.
I could honestly go on.
For those same reasons you should also care about how you're perceived by the Columbia protesters.
. But clearly there are much more important priorities, right? As for your prophecy about many chareidi children leaving the derech, the chilonim have been screaming the same complaints for the last 70 years and chareidim only grew.
Then why did the Charedi political leadership insist that Yeshiva students abandon their studies to join the army while at the same time non-learners in their community continue to shirk their duty?
They never said that. You're just lying.
They didn't say it explicitly, but they insisted on it happening and made it happen.
Nonsense. They didn't insist on anything.
Maybe he and his followers are hurting the army because of their sinful ways.
What an evil little git.
David Ohsie, the mask is off. Fess up.
Big git.
It's an expression. Evil little gits don't deserve more.
My knowledge of English expressions is just fine, thank you. You were applying אפילו. I was pointing out a קל וחומר.
It's clear you see it as two communities.
Well, I think you are correct. The Haredim have made it clear they are not part of our community: the Jewish People.
Fishburg: Don't you know that every single non-religious jew in the world whether in Israel or in the diaspora has yichus from truly religious ancestors. Where did they the holy ancestors go wrong? The Chaffetz Chaim Rabbi Akiva Eiger, Rashi, Rambam have irreligious offspring. As does the Baal Shem tov, the Magid and Rav Chaim Volozhiner and the Gaon. Your statement differentiating between sectors of Shomrei Torah is not a valid one.
Ok? And what's your point? That we should set up a chinuch system in which 50% of our youth go OTD, like most of the Dati community has? No, we are not doing that.
That we should set up a chinuch system in which 50% of our youth go OTD, like most of the Dati community has? -- Made up statistics and Motzei Shem Rah of an entire community. A Bizayon.
Unfortunately, when the truth hurts, your strategy is to deny it
the numbers don't lie
https://a7.org/?file=20200908170404.pdf
Slifkin admits not 50%, but 25% which is still very bad, but he says it's worth it-of course!
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/why-risk-your-kids
Avraham Marcus, a religious dati, unlike Slifkin, admits it's a big problem
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-exodus-disgrace-called-out/comment/51699221
But you would rather stick your head in the sand
I appreciate your passion for this topic and your commitment to your beliefs. However, I feel that our discussion might benefit from a more analytical approach. Torah study and the concept of pikuach nefesh (preservation of life) are indeed serious matters that require careful consideration.
It's important to recognize that there are diverse interpretations among Jewish scholars and students of Torah. When discussing such significant issues, it's crucial to approach them with a balance of intellectual rigor and respect for different viewpoints.
Perhaps we could revisit this topic by focusing on specific textual references or scholarly interpretations. This approach might lead to a more productive dialogue and help us both gain new insights. I'm open to hearing your perspective if you'd like to share any particular sources or reasoning that inform your position.
Let's continue this conversation in a spirit of mutual learning and respect for the complexity of Torah study.
Related
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I used AI to tone down my heated response!
The point is כל הפּוסל בּמומו פּוסל
reign in you haughtiness Gaaveh!
The problem is that you think the communities are separate. Instead of recognizing "our problems", you denigrate a groups of Jews that you think are beneath you. We are all ovdei hashem and our fates and tied together within the State of Israel. Your behavior is preventing the coming of Mashiach. May G-d grant you the wisdom to do Teshuvah.
"I think they would be better off focusing on the problems in their own community"
I take it that you've been following these רבנים very closely, reading their writings and listening to their lectures. After doing so, you have categorized the topics and have determine that they indeed have not sufficiently dealt with problems in their own community. Please share the statistics of your findings with us.
Or you could be speculating.
Probably a good idea
So why are they fighting so hard for them?
Oh, right, because they *also* refuse to work or even get an education. Sweet deal.
If they really wanted all the subsidies they would just join the army. Seems like the subsidies aren't worth it.
The debate currently going on is that the Charedim want to get their subsidies while staying in Yeshiva and not drafting. The Charedi parties don't want to give up the subsidies.
Do the gedolim agree with you? I haven't heard any of them call to reject Zionist money.
Then why don't they demand there constituents join the army right now, so they all get full benefits? Right now they live in poverty and get a smidgeon. They could be so much more wealthy!
Didn't answer my question
I answered it with another question. Try to think for more than 30 seconds.
I didn't listen to the audio yet, but on the first letter, it's so simple that there is milchemes mitzvah today? (It's not.) And even if it does apply (it very much may), does that mean there are no other legitimate reasons within a Torah framework to navigate the system carefully and not act to hasty at risk of jeopardizing charedi values? There are clear halachos on how the chachmei hatorah of every generation have the right to make decisions to uphold the upkeep of Torah. I'm not sure why it's a "distortion of Torah" just because things are more complicated and grey.
That said, most people here know position that there absolutely needs to be a change within the Charedi community and it's truly not right that they are living a different life and not sharing the burden. But the lack of understanding, while understandable from the hamon am (I can even justify anger on their part), from a Rosh Yeshiva who is representing torah, is sad.
Things are neither complicated nor grey. Watch the video.
Just listened, very powerful!
What this means to me is that we need to work on a compromise much faster. Honestly, if the army was full of people like Rav Tamir, that would make things a lot simpler. While we probably still wouldn't dive in headfirst due to many impactful complications, major compromises would be made. The honest truth, however, is that the army is not full of people like him and that slows down the process.
I want to clarify two things:
1. There’s some confusion here because not all gedolim are in complete agreement. Some firmly believe that compromise is still not an option. Reb Shmuel zt”l and his followers hold this view, and honestly, it’s possible we need their stance to ensure we don't compromise too far. Many others, probably most, feel differently but understand that we can’t just abandon core principles. That leads to the second point -
2. Unlike in a monarchy where decisions are made swiftly—קסם על שפתי מלך—in a democracy, we’re all familiar with the painstaking layers of red tape. Changes at the highest levels happen slowly as everyone’s voice is considered. Until October 7, 2023, it wasn’t clear there was a pressing need for change; the charedi way of life had its vital role. Now it’s evident things have shifted (or were this way all along), and it’s time for the charedi community to consider prioritizing certain values over others that may have been easier to ignore in the past. But change is incremental, and while it can be frustrating, it’s the only sustainable way forward. Recordings like this are part of this internal process, and people should listen and share. But at the same time, they need to understand that societies don’t change overnight. (The same could be said about the DL community, which has strengthened its Torah commitment gradually over years. The founding of the Hesder Yeshivos and the growth of talmidei chachamim are major achievements. But this progress has taken decades. If it went faster everyone would be chareidi!) To the contrary, rapid change could have unintended negative effects. And changes and discussions are taking place in the Knesset at the highest levels, coming from the charedi gedolim like Reb Moshe Hillel Hirsch.
So please keep sharing these recordings, as they will help—albeit slowly—to inspire change. And it's true that many charedim are ignorant of how dire the situation is. But it’s crucial for people to understand that this process takes time. The values charedim are upholding matter deeply, and any transition has to be handled with delicacy.
Sorry, the time is up for gradual change.
After this weekend, something snapped in the DL community, and I think in general Israeli society.
One of the teachers who was killed is my son's neighbor.
The soldier from Tzefat, a friend of another son.
I've heard horrible anecdotal stories about the numbers of divorces among families where the husband was away in Miluim for much of the year.
Last winter, the readjustments of families when the husband came home after 3 months were the subject of cute videos and spoofs. Now, no one is laughing, as the cost are becoming clear.
If the Hareidim were "just" weighing down the Israeli economy, we could take the slow approach to get them into the workforce.
But now, their refusal to serve is destroying too many Jewish families.
They have shown that they are simply not our brothers, and we will vote with our pocketbooks and at the ballot box to make that clear.
Agree. Something snapped this week.
This week? What about two months ago? https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-dati-community-is-furious
What about 5 months ago? https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-antisemitic-cartoon
What about. Year ago? What about 2006..? What about ever since the charedim decided they have a good thing going not working and not serving..?
I agree to much of the sentiment, and as I said, I understand if the hamon am is angry.
Time for revenge! Enjoy your little revenge party, but I predict it won't last too long. Maybe one election cycle, if that.
No one I know is enjoying much of anything right now
They should at least enjoy the death of Nasrallah and Sinwar
Your neighbor is drowning NOW and your response is “change takes time?”
I'm just explaining the reality. I'm not justifying anything.
If the reality is that Oct 7 didn't wake up the Haredi world to dramatically change their attitude and policy maybe they're truly lost. Time is literally running out for them to prove they care about anyone but themselves. Why isn't this considered a crisis?
The sad truth is that it's not the people. They were simply betrayed by their blind rabbinic leaders and nobody's willing to admit that.
It depends which leaders. Reb Moshe Hillel Hirsch seems to be involved in negotiations. One example of many: https://vinnews.com/2024/10/01/rabbi-moshe-hillel-hirsch-charedi-youths-who-are-not-in-yeshiva-should-enlist-in-idf/ Maybe it's taking time but we're making headway.
Yes. You don't save someone from a raging current if you don't know how to swim. You'll have to learn first. Risks yes, and some fail. But not suicide.
"the charedi way of life had its vital role"
Which is? And don't tell me about charedim- the word "role" implies a contribution to the rest of society.
The haredi world cannot sustain itself.
The dati world cannot sustain itself. Actually the State of Israel also can't sustain itself.
You've changed the topic which was the sustainability of the Charedi world. Before going into other issues, do you disagree?
k...?
"The founding of the Hesder Yeshivos and the growth of talmidei chachamim are major achievements. But this progress has taken decades. If it went faster everyone would be chareidi!"
I am not sure this is true, but I do think that the assumption behind it is at the root of the argument.
If you're talking about the fact that if it went faster everyone would be charedi, I was mostly kidding. Point is societies can't and shouldn't just change on a dime.
But you think that "charedi" is a natural progression from "religious," and that's simply not true.
No I think it's a natural progression of a focus on a certain part of "religious," and I am openly critical about the problems it causes.
It’s actually regressive from the advancement of humanity and israel in particular
It’s not just the rate of change. I don’t think the DL community or its religious leadership, no matter how observant or learned - would ever want to be charedi.
Because they follow the Torah and do as they are supposed to. Combine Torah and Derech Eretz, working and serving in addition to Learning.
What do you think it means to be charedi? To me it's a hierarchy of values. People in this conversation (not you) who don't even know what the charedi values are have no business here. But if charedi values, like torah biyun because knowing what Hashem wants from up is the most important thing in the world, and dikduk bhalacha because caring about every detail of where He wants from us is the most important thing in the world, and the other such values, which although they are in no way exclusive to the charedim nor can we claim that all or maybe even to most charedim (idk the numbers at all. My personal opinion is that is working pretty well...), but as a society we are the protectors of these ideals. It comes with all kinds of problems and shortcomings including an elite ideal becoming a standard for the masses, and we absolutely must deal with our problems, but that hierarchy is not so hard to teach young people. If that were the direction people took to effect change, it would probably be at the expense of the other important DL values, no doubt.
So I guess to your point, the negatives of charedi society, sure, I'm not proud of them either. But the positives are things that, today, many DL communities have incorporated very strongly. Saying that "they would never want to be charedi," means they disagree with the package, and some worldview differences but at the heart we aren't all as different as people think.
I plan on it, but yes they are
"it's so simple that there is milchemes mitzvah today? (It's not.) "
Yes, it's simple. You see even גדולי ישראל who oppose the draft agree it's a מלחמת מצוה. See here:
https://olamot.net/shiurim/%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95-%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%9B%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%95/
The weird skepticism and denial that it's a מלחמת מצוה is a recent kvetchy "discovery".
Did you go through the sugya? The Ramban (shikchas halavin pg. 412 frankel Rambam) almost certainly holds that it does not apply today, Rabbeinu Yonah (sanhedrin 16a) has two clear צדדים (technically I personally think the Ramban could be interpreted like either of the צדדים of Rabbeinu Yonah which is why I said "almost" about the Ramban), and the Rambam's comments in his hakdama to sefer hamitzvos (pg. 202 frankel) may shed light on what his opinion is where (at least according to the Frankel גירסא) he says we don't have milchemes mitzvah today, even if we can only speculate as to why that would be so.
I'm not saying it's simple one way or the other but it's definitely not simple. If you want a more current posek who wasn't sure if it applies, Reb Moshe in CM vol. 2 siman 78 seems to hold it doesn't, and only when it's a sakana where there other factors such as lo saamod etc. do we go to war (the perspective of the link you shared is in conflict with Reb Moshe's assertion about Amalek btw). See there for yourself as there are others who (IMO mistakenly) read Reb Moshe differently.
Also take a look at the Tur, BY, Bach, SA Harav in OC beginning of siman 249 and Aruch Hashulchan there where the consensus seems to be that there is no milchemes mitzvah today. Again, don't quote me, look up the sources and we can have a proper debate. Each source needs time and discussion. And Reb Elyashiv is entitled to his opinion, as is Reb Moshe. But this is far from weird skepticism, denial and kvetchiness,
When's the last time you had to run to a shelter?
I live in America.
Well, I figured. It's easy to make chakiras about whether we're in a milchemet mitzvah when you didn't spend Erev Rosh Hashana in a bomb shelter because people are actively trying to kill you and your family.
Figured you would say that. I'm an extremely sympathetic person. Respond to the points.
You may have something there. The whole חקירה on מלחמת מצוה is so bizarre. It would be interesting to track down who exactly came with the notion that goes against Rav Elyashiv. Maybe you're right, and it came from some who is physically and emotionally distant from the danger.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-dati-roshei-yeshiva-speak-out/comment/74765695
You commented, " If you want a more current posek who wasn't sure if [מלחמת מצוה] applies, Reb Moshe in CM vol. 2 siman 78 seems to hold it doesn't"
He is very clear that the מלחמת מצוה due to an attack does apply. You're conflating that sub-type מלחמת מצוה of with מלחמת עמלק and כיבוש הארץ.
Thanks. I only had a moment to look at the Ramban. In the context of his count of the 613, he's discussing whether there's a מצוה to consult with the אורים ותומים. The definition of what constitutes a מלחמת מצוה is at most tangential to the matter at hand. He doesn't say that there's no מלחמת מצוה today; that's the result of some latter-day tortured דיוק. You're phrase " almost certainly holds", despite its equivocation remains overreach. There is no "certainty" to a tortured דיוק on matters only tangential to the topic.
before I start I will say that wherever human pain and suffering is involved all talk might be insensitive but ההכרח לא יגונה so here goes
It seems like there is something fundamental missing in all these discussions about drafting charedim
notwithstanding all the official reasons the charedim don't join the army the simple truth and one that every charedi knows is the crux of the matter is that the way charedi society is structured for better or for worse is simply incompatible with intergration in to the military
intergration of the charedim into the army would cause deep fundamental change in the society as a whole as anybody who has an understanding of the society knows
and even a lot of charedim who are critical of charedi society still consider it for all kinds of reasons the society most alingned all in all with authentic judiasm and the most likely to preseve authentic judiasm because of that charedim just don't see going to the army as a realistic choice
I also want to point out that the fact is that no one in the charedi community forced the dati community to go to the army
from the charedi perspective the dati community decided based on their ideology that to serve in the army is a value and were always very enthusiastic about it while the charedim always considered that a mistaken view and thought that they too should not be in the army
I don't want to lengthen this with an analogy so think of one on your own
the point is to come running and say what's with you we're getting killed etc. a charedi would say get out of there why are you there in the first place
and don't answer with the tired arguement if not for us then who because then it would be a different situation and who knows
(for example it may be that then the religious would be so vital to the army that they would have more power to change the structure in ways that would be accomodating to the extent that it wouldn't impact the society the same way something impossible currently)
there is much more to be said and I am sure every point can be argued and counterargued just doing my part to bring clarity to this issue
Just two of the problems in his vort:
(1)
"The misconception that learning Torah exempts one from army service is nothing less than a distortion of the halacha" contradicts the Gemara Nedarim 32a which says
מפני מה נענש אברהם אבינו ונשתעבדו בניו למצרים מאתים ועשר שנים מפני שעשה אנגרייא בתלמידי חכמים
"Why was Avraham our forefather punished and his children enslaved to Egypt for 210 years? Because he made angaria (Rashi: brought out to war) talmiday chachamim."
And that is about Eliezer who was an EVED KNAANI talmid chacham!
(2)
"...legislation that permanently exempts Torah students from military service is a betrayal of the values of religious Zionism"
Straight from his own mouth: It is a "betrayal of the values of RELIGIOUS ZIONISM". But it is not a betrayal of the values of the religion of the Torah, only a betrayal of the values of those who force Zionism into their Torah.
Please bring halachic sources. It is a debate in Rishonim if Avraham Avinu has the law of Jew! Certainly not the law of Am Yisroel the nation of Yisrael. The Halachic sources are clear, with some disputes. There is no clear basis for a draft for True Talmidei chachamim when there no war or threat of war.. However All talmidei Chachamim, Rabanim, Rosh Yeshivos and Shovavim must fight an actual milchemes Mitzva. This is not disputed in halachic sources.
There is no halachic source that everybody must fight in a milchemes mitzvah. If that's what הכל יוצאין meant, it wouldn't be only Israelis. All Jews in chu"l would be obligated also. Clearly, even you don't take your own unsourced statements seriously.
" If that's what הכל יוצאין meant, it wouldn't be only Israelis. All Jews in chu"l would be obligated also. "
It's discussed among contemporary authorities. Turn off the intellectual fog machine.
Contemporary authorities? You want to rely on contemporary authorities? All my contemporary authorities for the past 70 years have said yeshiva students are exempt from the draft.
You asked about Jews in חו"ל and I answered. Your reliance on certtain authorities in regards to the Yeshiva draft in no way refutes the fact that contemporary authorities discuss the obligation of Jews in חו"ל. And it's not particularly relevant since they're addressing a different question. Stay focused and don't lose the plot.
No, the question was not about contemporary authorities but was about what classical halachic sources say. You moved the discussion to contemporary authorities. Reading comprehension, dude.
You are actually bringing up a good point. This point too is discussed in rishonim! The obligation of מִלְחֶמֶת מִצְוָה applies when וְעֶזְרַת יִשְׂרָאֵל מִיַּד צָר שֶׁבָּא עֲלֵיהֶם the place of צָר is in eretz yisroel and requires those in that predicament to fight the מִלְחֶמֶת מִצְוָה because they are able to join the war. See Rambam shabbos 2 , אם באו על עסקי נפשות, או שערכו מלחמה, או שצרו סתם, יוצאין עליהן בכלי זין ומחללין עליהם את השבת. ומצוה על כל ישראל שיכולין לבוא, לצאתא ולעזור לאחיהם שבמצור ולהצילן מיד הגויים בשבת,
see the words שיכולין לבוא who are able to come. Many righteous sensitive souls in Ch"ul who were able to come have contributed either by fighting or supplying material necessities. Supplying prayers , or dapay gemara just does not cut i if one is able "שיכולין לבוא"
You just made that up also. It never says "those in that predicament". The gemara and Rambam never makes an exception for those living in chu"l. Since when are people living in America not able to come?? It's literally a 12 hr flight! What a stupid excuse that shows how little substance your arguments have. The real truth is that הכל יוצאין doesn't mean everybody is obligated to join the battle,but just means those three categories of peturim are not pattur. But of course the king decides who joins and who doesn't, and we see he is punished if he drafts yeshiva students. Kal vchomer when there is no king but a government of kofrim.
More am haratzus!. The halacha brought in shulchan aruch also applies in any city in galus and chutz laaretz. One does not need a melech.
And the issue is much more than a 12 hour flight. haved you never been involved in Psak halacha?
Of course you don't need a melech, but there is also no rule that every single person in the city must join. Only those who are necessary.
The issues involved with chareidim are much more involved than modern Orthodox Americans by many orders of magnitude. I almost certainly know much more halacha than you, but this doesn't matter. If you want to appeal to vague "psak halacha" without giving your reasoning, then the discussion is over already. Because all chareidi poskim say yeshiva students are pattur.
Yes now I know you are an am Haaretz. I am too old to serve but my children do. And in a milchemes mitzva
מִלְחֶמֶת מִצְוָה אֵינוֹ צָרִיךְ לִטּל בָּהּ רְשׁוּת בֵּית דִּין. אֶלָּא יוֹצֵא מֵעַצְמוֹ בְּכָל עֵת. וְכוֹפֶה הָעָם לָצֵאת
אֲבָל בְּמִלְחֶמֶת מִצְוָה הַכּל יוֹצְאִין וַאֲפִלּוּ חָתָן מֵחַדְרוֹ וְכַלָּה מֵחֻפָּתָהּ:
Since when did the knesset become a מלך? Which navi coronated them? You guys just make stuff up out of thin air, right?
Who said anything about a מלך?
Again please study the halacha. You seem to be not familiar with the sugya and are writing emotionally . This applies all over the world in Galus with no king at all.
Paskening from a medrash?
Tsk.
Right. It's a midrash, not a halachic source.
Look. We don't ignore midrash, even if it doesn't carry the same weight as halacha.
The problem is that we have centuries of a lacuna of sources. So the aggada has been elevated to a higher level than it would otherwise have.
In any case, it wasn't a מלחמת מצוה from the strict definition of the term.
There's a difference between talmidei chachamim and a blanket exemption of an entire community though.
Adraba. If there is a punishment for doing that with one pupil of a Torah chacham, kal vachomer there will be a punishment for doing it with lots of pupils of Torah chachamim.
We are all pupils of משה רבינו- we call him רבינו which makes us pupils.
There is no הלכה that confers an exemption from אנגריא or מלחמת מצוה to a pupil.
Angarya is not milchemes mitzva.
Really? He wasn't going to save Lot's life? The same Lot from whom Dovid HaMelech descends?
Don't confuse halacha with drush.
The halacha limits מלחמת מצוה to attacks on ישראל, not ancestors of yet non-existing to-be converts.
You can do whatever you want with drush, and indeed I've seen that particular drasha elsewhere- if I recall correctly it was in שפע חיים by the Klausenberger Rebbe.
"Likud and Religious Zionism and Otzma Yehudit"
That's not fair. Ben-Gvir and his party have always been opposed to charedi exemptions, and yesterday MK Sukkot of Smotrich's party came out very strongly against them as well. Maybe it's a horrible result of what happened over the weekend, but one way or another, I'll take it. The exemption bill is dead; UTJ backed down. R' Goldberg's wife told off Amar at the shiva, bless her. If all they have left is daycare subsidies (which, yes, should also go), that's showing they're toast.
The daycare subsidy law is also enabling the charedi evasion.
It's also rank dishonesty and shtick. The purpose of the daycare subsidy was to get women into the workforce, not to remove men from the workforce.
All subsidies to everyone in this country should cease.
Well, yeah. But once we leave our libertarian utopia, let's deal with reality, shall we?
אם תרצו....
Yeah. Lying about someone, even if you don't particularly like them, to win an argument or make a point shouldn't be the way to go. Certainly not what I think of as the Jewish way.
It appears that Smotrich has changed his tune.
Not likely. He's tone deaf.
Charedi and Arab populations do not serve in the IDF for the same reason - they do not support the values of the State of Israel.
There’s quite a differ between not drafting Israeli Arabs as a group due to (1) security reasons and (2) genuine conflicts between family ties to people one may be shooting at if drafted, on the one hand, and chareidi selfishness and timidity that a demands blanket exemption.
And of course many non-Jewish Israelis DO serve, whether as a group (Druze, Circassian) or as individuals or something in between (Bedouins of particular “tribes”).
And my impression is that the latter do not demand or get the same type of public support and benefits that chareidim do.
You’ve just insulted thousands of Druze and Muslims….and the small number of Charedim who serve…
In fairness, Druze aren't Arabs, or at least don't see themselves as such. And they and Bedouin and Palestinian Christians and Muslims who serve (and God bless each and every one of them) are a very small percentage of Israeli Arabs.
You wrote "the charedi parties UTJ and Shas". I thought the English word for שודדי ים is "pirates", not "parties".
ואי זו היא מלחמת מצוה, זו מלחמת שבעה עממין, ומלחמת עמלק, ועזרת ישראל מצר שבא עליהן
אבל במלחמת מצוה הכל יוצאין, אפילו חתן מחדרו וכלה מחופתה
Doesn't seem to be an exemption for yeshiva students
No exception for people living in Chu"l either. You guys don't even take your own sources seriously.
It's been discussed by contemporary authorities.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-dati-roshei-yeshiva-speak-out/comment/74907874
In short, do nothing, kick the can down the road, and keep doing what hasn't worked. Being reasonable only works with reasonable people
Following Rav Slifkin's advice, I created sub-titles for Rav Granot's video. It may be seen at
https://youtu.be/wsnJ9FqOqFg
I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I have a simple question. I agree that Rav Tamir Granot's video is very powerful. Has he attempted to discuss this directly with chareidim in leadership positions? If yes, what has the response been? If not, why not?
That statistic is a lie, it's way less, and in the header yeshivot less than 10%. If the chareidi community would bring in a few thousand soldiers the army would set up a brigade (or similar unit) for them giving them whatever reasonable religious conditions they wanted. The header yeshivot and similar programs are not perfect, nothing is, but are a very good model of how the chareidim could find a way to do the army. The current very low participation of the chareidim is highly irresponsible, irreligious and immoral
If slifkin would speak with the love and respect that these people speak with, maybe people would actually hear his message. Coming from a place of hate never works.
I'm all for Haredim serving in the IDF. I'm also for Tel Avivians serving in the IDF:
https://x.com/moshefeiglin/status/1851133374041059648
More than one thing is rotten here.
I'm sorry, apart from the completely inappropriate "Yes, but..." (which is *always* an even less appropriate whataboutism), this is nonsense on stilts. There's no way "more Tel Avivians dodge the draft than charedim" for the simple reason that charedim get a *blanket* exemption and secular Israelis don't. You can't get higher than 100%. (And even counting actual service, very few charedim do.)
In fact- and this is the most important point- secular Israelis (male and female) get *no* exemption at all, as a group, which is the whole issue here. Even if some secular people can't serve, or pretend not to be able to, that's something the IDF can and does deal with on an individual level. (Even dati women are considered individually.) This is beside the point, it's deflection, it's untrue, and it's apples and oranges.
It makes no difference to me whether you are measuring population percentage or persons. The problem of avoidance or exemption is there.
If clarification is needed, I said at the start of my original comment that I'm all for Haredim serving in the IDF. So you apparently have a problem with my comment's second sentence. What exactly is it? I want a level playing field, meaning there should be no special laws for anyone (except for Arabs). What do you want instead?
BTW, this shouldn't require passing new legislation. This should simply require annulling Ben Gurion's fixer-upper.
I assume that the title should read "The Dati-Leumi Roshei . ."
Or not. :-)