DNS, first of all, a public apology. It pained me to see you so huffy in that DM. You get me confused sometimes. On the one hand, you seem to LOVE confrontation - posting provocative posts incessantly and allowing your critics pretty free reign. There is even a pesky little troll who frequents my blog with inanities and the only reason why I have not yet banned him is because of your inspiration. And I feel like a kindred spirit in this regard. On the other hand, you sometimes get pretty sensitive. So if I've insulted you, I ask forgiveness.
On another note, I was amazed to see a political post - with a Charedi twist! Wow, what a chiddush!
I'm inclined to be a little more charitable towards the Likud in the Deri debacle. During coalition negotiations, they had no choice but to make Deri a minister; without him (and Shas) there could be no government. And then we return to our endless cycle of indecisive elections, with no functioning government. Coalition politics almost invariably involves making some highly unpalatable decisions. I'm not saying I would have done the same in their shoes, but at least I can understand why they had to accept him.
Now that he's been disqualified, they're making a hue and cry about the "injustice" of the situation. Why? Well, if you accept my argument above, then you can also say that this is not out of any moral conviction that the court did the wrong thing; it's simply the politically expedient thing to do. Wring your hands, gnash your teeth, cry crocodile tears over the fact that our *dear* friend Aryeh Deri cannot server as a minister - but don't try *too* hard to get him reinstated. After all, we *are* a law-abiding government, and even if we disagree with the court's decision, we must respect it. This way Likud gets to keep Shas in the coalition, while scrubbing the optically appalling Deri from the Cabinet group photo.
I could even be more charitable and suggest it's possible that they anticipated this court case, and appointed Deri privately hoping that he would be disqualified. But even I'll admit that seems a bridge too far.
If we use Torah to understand the world, then the Deri case should be compared to a chazan (or any communal position) who sinned in Orach Chaim 53. Since Deri plead guilty, the main discussions of the poskim (rumors and kala delo pasik) are not relevant.
Biur Halacha citing Chasam Sofer discusses a case that the community wants the sinner to continue in his post. Chasam Sofer allows it, but adds that even if 1 congregant is opposed he can prevent it.
By the way, if anyone isn't willing/able to pay for their subscription, they are welcome to comment over at my blog. We keep a close eye on the goings-on at RJ there!
Estoppel would not apply since he fulfilled the terms of his agreement at the time of conviction. He did resign from the government. The agreement did not exclude him from running in the future. The time to challenge him on estoppel would have been as soon as his hat was thrown into the ring or as soon as he was elected but prior to being sworn in. Since no challenge was issued at that time. estoppel can not apply.
I'm not sure why the first issue is a Chillul Hashem.
As regards the second issue, here's what the רמב"ם says about the עבירה of חילול השם:
אע"פ שהתשובה מכפרת על הכל, ועצמו של יוה"כ מכפר, יש עבירות שהן מתכפרים לשעתן, ויש עבירות שאין מתכפרים אלא לאחר זמן.
המחלל את השם, אע"פ שעשה תשובה, והגיע יום הכפורים והוא עומד בתשובתו ובאו עליו יסורין, אינו מתכפר לו כפרה גמורה עד שימות. אלא תשובה, יוה"כ ויסורין - שלשתן תולין, ומיתה מכפרת, שנאמר: "ונגלה באזני ה' צבאות אם יכופר העון הזה לכם עד תמותון" (ישעיהו כב, יד).
I don't think making your blog subscrption-only is a good idea. The people you most want to reach are those whom you disagree with in your posts, which are also the ones least likely to make a subscription to the blog. With a subscription model you'll be preaching only to the converted.
Not at all. The agreement did not explicitly bar him from future political roles.
The Agreement was for 2 charges of not reporting income. He agreed to pay nis 180,000 in fines plus any taxes owed. Deri agreed to resign from the Knesset and the conviction will not carry moral turpitude, allowing the politician to continue in public life.
The agreement on the prior criminal charges against Deri did not disallow him from joining a future government. If the agreement the Deri reach in settlement of those charges were to stop him from joining in future governments in should have used the words "moral turpitude" which is defined in Israeli law as a reason for disbarment from running or serving in government. "Moral turpitude" was discussed during negotiations between the prosecutor and Deri's lawyers and were taken off the table and not included in the final agreement. So there is no basis in Israeli law to stop him from being a Minister. The HJC referenced British law to bar him from being a Minister.
And Common Sense is NOT law.
Yes, common sense would expect someone who has been charged and not acquitted of the crimes to be disallowed from serving as a member of government, but Israeli law is silent on this unless he serves time or agrees that his crime is one of "moral turpitude".
HJC overrode the Knesset law and use foreign law instead. That was bad for everyone not just Deri.
This is the bench creating its own rules of law. This is not what the bench should be allowed to do.
1. In all negotiations, one side asks for the Moon, the Sun and the stars and the other side offers nothing. Then, they start talking. However, I will note that it is really it is very difficult to get enough MKs to show up to get 61. Look at the votes. I am somewhat surprised at you, being that you are from the UK. There, Parliament can do whatever it pleases. No court can strike down any of its acts.
2.. I think that the support for Deri was really a way of thumbing their noses at Hayut & Co. They did not disqualify Deri because of his priors. Legally, he is qualified. They presumed to say that he is not worthy. That is a political decision.
I don't know too much about Deri and whether there is merit to the claims mentioned here or not. But I just want to explain why perhaps the Charedi public does not seem too disturbed by the charges (again, this is conjecture, as an outsider to these particular politics, but somewhat familiar with the Charedi mindset in Israel in general).
Quite simply, the Charedi public in Israel (rightfully) perceives themselves as a persecuted minority, standing up to tremendous abuse and harassment from the secular Israeli majority. One need to look no further than this very blog to see the crazed hostility and contempt in which they are held. So anything that the secular establishment does is 'them vs. us', and they give it very little weight. They view it as just another cynical ploy and abuse of power used by the secular state to fight them. So yes, it may possibly be a Chilul Hashem (I am not familiar with the specifics), but for anyone to ignore this reality is missing a crucial part of the puzzle.
If this was April 1st, I'd think this is an April fools joke!
Are you serious! A paywall? 8 dollars a month?
Your readership will drop to half or even less!
I mean, I loved your books. Your hashkofos explaining how to make peace between the worlds of science & Torah are great and helped me a lot!
I'm grateful for all that, but I'm NEVER going to pay to read a blog! Especially at this point where although I enjoy reading you, it's mostly repetitious, with minor tweak updates.
PLEASE not trying to insult you. But you seriously need to rethink this or it's goodbye, so sorry.
“…It was a disgrace and chillul Hashem of the first order to see the entire religious political establishment line up in full support of a repeated and unabashed criminal. (And Deri’s role in enabling the Meron tragedy makes his financial crimes look minor by comparison.) …”
It should come as no surprise that so many Orthodox Jews go OTD, seeing the immoral selection of Deri as a minister in the government. Deri’s selection demonstrates that the whole basis of halachic authenticity and truthfulness is a sham. The ENTIRE religious political establishment opts for a convicted criminal !? Abandoning Orthodoxy would be the smartest thing any chareidi person should opt for to totally distance him/herself from their criminally centered society.
I have been addicted to your blog. Making it paid will cure me from my addiction.
DNS, first of all, a public apology. It pained me to see you so huffy in that DM. You get me confused sometimes. On the one hand, you seem to LOVE confrontation - posting provocative posts incessantly and allowing your critics pretty free reign. There is even a pesky little troll who frequents my blog with inanities and the only reason why I have not yet banned him is because of your inspiration. And I feel like a kindred spirit in this regard. On the other hand, you sometimes get pretty sensitive. So if I've insulted you, I ask forgiveness.
On another note, I was amazed to see a political post - with a Charedi twist! Wow, what a chiddush!
I'm inclined to be a little more charitable towards the Likud in the Deri debacle. During coalition negotiations, they had no choice but to make Deri a minister; without him (and Shas) there could be no government. And then we return to our endless cycle of indecisive elections, with no functioning government. Coalition politics almost invariably involves making some highly unpalatable decisions. I'm not saying I would have done the same in their shoes, but at least I can understand why they had to accept him.
Now that he's been disqualified, they're making a hue and cry about the "injustice" of the situation. Why? Well, if you accept my argument above, then you can also say that this is not out of any moral conviction that the court did the wrong thing; it's simply the politically expedient thing to do. Wring your hands, gnash your teeth, cry crocodile tears over the fact that our *dear* friend Aryeh Deri cannot server as a minister - but don't try *too* hard to get him reinstated. After all, we *are* a law-abiding government, and even if we disagree with the court's decision, we must respect it. This way Likud gets to keep Shas in the coalition, while scrubbing the optically appalling Deri from the Cabinet group photo.
I could even be more charitable and suggest it's possible that they anticipated this court case, and appointed Deri privately hoping that he would be disqualified. But even I'll admit that seems a bridge too far.
Re Deri -
If we use Torah to understand the world, then the Deri case should be compared to a chazan (or any communal position) who sinned in Orach Chaim 53. Since Deri plead guilty, the main discussions of the poskim (rumors and kala delo pasik) are not relevant.
Biur Halacha citing Chasam Sofer discusses a case that the community wants the sinner to continue in his post. Chasam Sofer allows it, but adds that even if 1 congregant is opposed he can prevent it.
So there is what Daas Torah should be.
By the way, if anyone isn't willing/able to pay for their subscription, they are welcome to comment over at my blog. We keep a close eye on the goings-on at RJ there!
Slifkin and his silly blog are a:
Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem Chilul Hashem
Estoppel would not apply since he fulfilled the terms of his agreement at the time of conviction. He did resign from the government. The agreement did not exclude him from running in the future. The time to challenge him on estoppel would have been as soon as his hat was thrown into the ring or as soon as he was elected but prior to being sworn in. Since no challenge was issued at that time. estoppel can not apply.
Deri will be running things whether or not he has an official position.
His corrupting influence will be there either way.
Only difference will be the Chillul HASHEM of it being OFFICIAL.
Your Blog is about Chillul Hashem.
I'm not sure why the first issue is a Chillul Hashem.
As regards the second issue, here's what the רמב"ם says about the עבירה of חילול השם:
אע"פ שהתשובה מכפרת על הכל, ועצמו של יוה"כ מכפר, יש עבירות שהן מתכפרים לשעתן, ויש עבירות שאין מתכפרים אלא לאחר זמן.
המחלל את השם, אע"פ שעשה תשובה, והגיע יום הכפורים והוא עומד בתשובתו ובאו עליו יסורין, אינו מתכפר לו כפרה גמורה עד שימות. אלא תשובה, יוה"כ ויסורין - שלשתן תולין, ומיתה מכפרת, שנאמר: "ונגלה באזני ה' צבאות אם יכופר העון הזה לכם עד תמותון" (ישעיהו כב, יד).
I don't think making your blog subscrption-only is a good idea. The people you most want to reach are those whom you disagree with in your posts, which are also the ones least likely to make a subscription to the blog. With a subscription model you'll be preaching only to the converted.
Not at all. The agreement did not explicitly bar him from future political roles.
The Agreement was for 2 charges of not reporting income. He agreed to pay nis 180,000 in fines plus any taxes owed. Deri agreed to resign from the Knesset and the conviction will not carry moral turpitude, allowing the politician to continue in public life.
The agreement on the prior criminal charges against Deri did not disallow him from joining a future government. If the agreement the Deri reach in settlement of those charges were to stop him from joining in future governments in should have used the words "moral turpitude" which is defined in Israeli law as a reason for disbarment from running or serving in government. "Moral turpitude" was discussed during negotiations between the prosecutor and Deri's lawyers and were taken off the table and not included in the final agreement. So there is no basis in Israeli law to stop him from being a Minister. The HJC referenced British law to bar him from being a Minister.
And Common Sense is NOT law.
Yes, common sense would expect someone who has been charged and not acquitted of the crimes to be disallowed from serving as a member of government, but Israeli law is silent on this unless he serves time or agrees that his crime is one of "moral turpitude".
HJC overrode the Knesset law and use foreign law instead. That was bad for everyone not just Deri.
This is the bench creating its own rules of law. This is not what the bench should be allowed to do.
1. In all negotiations, one side asks for the Moon, the Sun and the stars and the other side offers nothing. Then, they start talking. However, I will note that it is really it is very difficult to get enough MKs to show up to get 61. Look at the votes. I am somewhat surprised at you, being that you are from the UK. There, Parliament can do whatever it pleases. No court can strike down any of its acts.
2.. I think that the support for Deri was really a way of thumbing their noses at Hayut & Co. They did not disqualify Deri because of his priors. Legally, he is qualified. They presumed to say that he is not worthy. That is a political decision.
I don't know too much about Deri and whether there is merit to the claims mentioned here or not. But I just want to explain why perhaps the Charedi public does not seem too disturbed by the charges (again, this is conjecture, as an outsider to these particular politics, but somewhat familiar with the Charedi mindset in Israel in general).
Quite simply, the Charedi public in Israel (rightfully) perceives themselves as a persecuted minority, standing up to tremendous abuse and harassment from the secular Israeli majority. One need to look no further than this very blog to see the crazed hostility and contempt in which they are held. So anything that the secular establishment does is 'them vs. us', and they give it very little weight. They view it as just another cynical ploy and abuse of power used by the secular state to fight them. So yes, it may possibly be a Chilul Hashem (I am not familiar with the specifics), but for anyone to ignore this reality is missing a crucial part of the puzzle.
If this was April 1st, I'd think this is an April fools joke!
Are you serious! A paywall? 8 dollars a month?
Your readership will drop to half or even less!
I mean, I loved your books. Your hashkofos explaining how to make peace between the worlds of science & Torah are great and helped me a lot!
I'm grateful for all that, but I'm NEVER going to pay to read a blog! Especially at this point where although I enjoy reading you, it's mostly repetitious, with minor tweak updates.
PLEASE not trying to insult you. But you seriously need to rethink this or it's goodbye, so sorry.
“…It was a disgrace and chillul Hashem of the first order to see the entire religious political establishment line up in full support of a repeated and unabashed criminal. (And Deri’s role in enabling the Meron tragedy makes his financial crimes look minor by comparison.) …”
It should come as no surprise that so many Orthodox Jews go OTD, seeing the immoral selection of Deri as a minister in the government. Deri’s selection demonstrates that the whole basis of halachic authenticity and truthfulness is a sham. The ENTIRE religious political establishment opts for a convicted criminal !? Abandoning Orthodoxy would be the smartest thing any chareidi person should opt for to totally distance him/herself from their criminally centered society.