Over 70 billion chickens are horrifically tortured every year, the kapparot are a drop in the ocean. This is about your stupid feud with the chareidim, not animal welfare. You don't care about the chickens at all. Not one bit.
There is no way to humanely grow and slaughter 70 billion chickens. This is why I'm vegan. I hope someday we will have artificial meat or a procedure to remove the chicken's cerebral cortex.
You should do some research on how animals are treated in modern intensive factory farms. Spoiler: you can't grow 70 billion chickens a year without making them extremely uncomfortable.
You just told Uriah's wife you wouldn't slaughter chickens at all, period, even if it could be done, as you define it, humanely. Which shows that this has nothing to do with the conditions surrounding shechita, just like to NS it has nothing to do with chickens at all.
You and NS are giving great chizuk to charedim (or you would, if they read this blog) and confirming that they are 1000% to refuse to give in. Because like the "circumcision is barbaric" gang in Germany, it's never REALLY about what they claim it is, isn't it?
No I'm not against eating animals in principle if they have lives worth living before being slaughtered. It's the torture, not the killing per se, that I'm against.
(I edited the comment because it conveyed the opposite of what I meant)
I wasn't thinking about shechitah. I'm not really thinking about slaughter in general tbh; slaughter is the least awful part of the whole process. Though now that you mention it, I suppose stunning should be required.
Well, OK, its your opinion, I can respect it without agreeing with it.
What really interests me tho is why is it we rarely see such concern from the left about actual human beings? There are nearly two million men locked up in prisons in the US, thankfully down from the millions of a few years ago. Even in the "best" of prisons, they are locked away for their entire lives in tiny little cells. This was unheard of for all of history till around the early 19th century. It's horrific, mind-bogglingly unspeakable. And yet the left of today seems to take no interest in this whatsoever. THIS is what a real liberal should be thinking about. And yet we hear nothing. What happened to liberals? When did they go off the rails so badly?
Right wing extremism is always provoked by left wing excess. So it's definitely true that the constant attack on authentic Judaism from the left causes the right to dig their heels in. But why then promote this patronizing claptrap of "gently* encouraging people use to money instead, i.e.. stop doing kapporos? Why do you on the left continue to think that all things can be sold to the stoopid masses, if its just packaged right?
Here's a better solution, which actually has a chance to work: "Gently" tell critics to stop thinking about religious Jews, and get their own house in order first. Maybe then, in the new freedom from attacks by haters, the right will make the changes it believes necessary.
The idea that this is a left v. right issue is so preposterous as to be laughable. The thought that treating animals in an enlightened manner is somehow against 'authentic' Judaism is likewise preposterous. The thought that Jews might consider such murky rituals as unnecessary, unenlightened and frankly, pagan in origin (as per Shulchan Aruch) and that you consider the Shukchan Aruch as 'left' is beyond parody.
Ein Adam choteh elah im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus.
The foolishness of believing it's easier to get animal rights activists to leave jews alone from needlessly harming animals than to get bnei Avraham Yitzchak and Yaakov rachmanim bnei rachmanim to take better care of the chickens without stopping the minhag of kapparos at all , or getting them to switch to money which is already very popular , is the prerequisite for the sin of ignoring our own faults because someone else has a different problem.
( p.s. we know packaging works. The haskala proved that )
I remember, as a youngster, back in late 40s or early 50s. We had chickens in a box in the kitchen. After 'shluggin', birds went to my great uncle (Shochet) for slaughter and dispersal to needy families.
It is well documented that most of the dead birds wind up in a garbage dumpster. There r no on-site facilities to process the birds for food, and it would be an economical loss to ship them back to facilities to even try to do so.
Do not kid yourselves, Shluggers! No 'ani will ever get to eat your chicken.
That sounds like an awful story, Frank! For the most part, aniim prefer cash donations over goods. If they live anywhere near a market, they can get whatever they need and want more quickly and efficiently. What good is a tsedaka item if it will not be fully utilized, and hopefully enjoyed?
If an ani is hoping to make a brisket for Yontif, I would rather contribute to the cost of that dinner 2 weeks in advance than a chicken her kids do not like! Tsedaka MUST take into account the recipient's dignity!
Oh, I'll add this. Gevirim seem to think that ani'im are so irresponsible that giving them money is counterproductive. That they ARE ani'im is proof that they're irresponsible.
I think blaming the aniim is not a widespread attitude among the frum. Most Haredim have extended families or co-congregates who experience poverty thru no fault of their own. Some aniim have large families where the head of household earns very little due to lack of employable skills.
and as to "no on-site facilities".... i was literally at one two days ago and can send you videos of the processing facility...so "well documented"...errm yep but I like the confidence either way.
Doniel, that video was only 1 example. PETA has many more examples.
Almost every year, the local papers run pictures of Orthodox groups and some rabbis protesting the slaughter. The NY Post often has pictures of chicken carcasses for disposal. The poultry business is low-margin and very labor intensive. Transporting with refrigeration to a facility in Jersey to quickly process a shipment of a few days' worth of many 1000's of is not worth the costs. I do not think the mashgiach of a kosher facility would even accept chix already-shechted off-site.
then that would be a problem with the system rather than the minhag itself, in jerusalem everything is processed in one area and it is extremely efficient.
I dont really care whether you want to do kapporas or not it just strikes me as another feeble jibe at charedi practice/
No, my concern for the welfare of animals is my only motivation for pointing out the realistic truth of kapporas is not an excuse, feeble or otherwise, to shun the ritual.
Glad to hear about the efficiency of Jerusalem's K-program. But, that is usually not the case in US, and whether the chix make it to the 'aniim is a consideration whether to do K. U have to work with the system u have when choosing minhagim, especially those without universal support. Another time we can talk about Haredi minhagim and lifestyles that may have a negative impact on society's welfare.
You omitted the other criticisms of the chicken usage such as those by ערוך השולחן
Quite clear from his words that mass scale practice of this Minhag can cause issues. Maybe it only ever was performed by individuals with their household chickens
Though I have never personally used a chicken, I would certainly dig in my heels, when I hear of the "civilized" non-Jewish and Jewish liberals who are seeking to ban things not just kaporos, but things like shchita and bris mila. They've already managed to succeed with their agenda in most of Europe.
"It would seem that causing needless suffering to animals is a Biblical prohibition that far outweighs the value of a custom."
Your wrong! Even if the custom of swinging is "needless," if its then given to poor families WHICH MOST ARE there is nothing more VALUBLE this chicken can do!!
Keep it up. This balanced approach is the way to go. Maybe by making Kapparos standards for chickens be BETTER than industry standards, we will merit extra compassion from above.
" The Tur states that after slaughtering the chicken, there is a custom to throw its innards on the roof for birds to eat. Taz and Aruch haShulchan state that the reason for this is to show compassion for other creatures and thereby to earn Divine compassion. "
I didn't grow up with kapporot. To me, that "justification" -- to kill one bird unnecessarily, and then claim credit for "compassion" because you fed its guts to other birds -- comes pretty close to a chillul haShem.
But I'm vegetarian, and don't practice "authentic Judaism", so I may be biased.
You’re not biased. You’re just not mesmerized with the scatterbrained notion that you can get God to change his mind by transference of sin to chicken. But on the other hand, if you can do it with a goat, why not a chicken.?
“shlugin” ” (wish I knew how to spell it in Yiddish) means beat , if my Yiddish memory serves me correctly. Did the folks in the olden days bop the chickens in the head after saying a few bruchos?
It actually means to swing, like to swing a bat. like in baseball a major hitter can be called a "slugger". And yes, you can swing a punch to. I think that's what's confusing you.
We have chickens, and we use live chickens for kaparos. We feel it's more memorable to use chickens, and we also get to say the bracha with the shchita.
The place we go to actually salts and feathers the chickens and uses them in school lunches.
We feel more comfortable with this set up than the typical one you describe.
There are many kapparos sights that are on a very low scale and in a backyard with only a few dozen chickens, handled in a very decent manner. I try to do that myself. Any big one I stay away from, partially for the above reason, but mainly because I don't get a good feeling of this being commercialized and also with so many chickens the stench is a bit too much to bare.
Not sure what you are talking about, I've done Kapparos in Israel and in US and many different places and everyone still uses male for male and female for female. (Honestly this part makes no sense to me, even by korbanos we are not makpid on this.) So that means the minhag is still prevalent.
I assume you are responding to me? (some times the thread gets messed up) I have no problem when people learn a sugya and feel towards one side כך היא דרכה של תורה. I just was a bit confused when you made it sound like even the Rama would agree to this, and I don't think it is the same, as I explained to yidpashut. (I was initially turned off when you said you "don't hold" of kapparos, like its the mechaber Rama and you, but I think you just mean you are מכריע this way.)
We act out like it's a korban, so it should remind us of our sins. I agree with you on that.
But it is not a problem of looking like kodshim because we don't associate it like a korban, as opposed to pesach when its a lamb, and there are some places (today all) that stay away from all meat roasted. If there were places that considered chickens to look like a korban, it would be forbidden to do kapparos there too.
I hear what you are saying but please explain why we can have a roasted zroa on the table and that's fine as long as we don't point at it, and yet we can't even say the words "this meat is for pesach". For some reason certain things are looked at to be associated more than others. I guess because a korbon pesach used to be eaten the night of pesach but a "korban Chicken was never brought erev yom kippur. Even if this doesn't make sense to diffrentuate, that doesn't mean the minhag doesn't carry over.
Over 70 billion chickens are horrifically tortured every year, the kapparot are a drop in the ocean. This is about your stupid feud with the chareidim, not animal welfare. You don't care about the chickens at all. Not one bit.
@Dov,
So how would you humanely slaughter all those 70 billion chickens?
There is no way to humanely grow and slaughter 70 billion chickens. This is why I'm vegan. I hope someday we will have artificial meat or a procedure to remove the chicken's cerebral cortex.
("Liked" only to the extent that the commenter is correct that this post has nothing to do with chickens, not the "sadistically tortured" bit.)
You should do some research on how animals are treated in modern intensive factory farms. Spoiler: you can't grow 70 billion chickens a year without making them extremely uncomfortable.
You just told Uriah's wife you wouldn't slaughter chickens at all, period, even if it could be done, as you define it, humanely. Which shows that this has nothing to do with the conditions surrounding shechita, just like to NS it has nothing to do with chickens at all.
You and NS are giving great chizuk to charedim (or you would, if they read this blog) and confirming that they are 1000% to refuse to give in. Because like the "circumcision is barbaric" gang in Germany, it's never REALLY about what they claim it is, isn't it?
No I'm not against eating animals in principle if they have lives worth living before being slaughtered. It's the torture, not the killing per se, that I'm against.
(I edited the comment because it conveyed the opposite of what I meant)
I wasn't thinking about shechitah. I'm not really thinking about slaughter in general tbh; slaughter is the least awful part of the whole process. Though now that you mention it, I suppose stunning should be required.
Well, OK, its your opinion, I can respect it without agreeing with it.
What really interests me tho is why is it we rarely see such concern from the left about actual human beings? There are nearly two million men locked up in prisons in the US, thankfully down from the millions of a few years ago. Even in the "best" of prisons, they are locked away for their entire lives in tiny little cells. This was unheard of for all of history till around the early 19th century. It's horrific, mind-bogglingly unspeakable. And yet the left of today seems to take no interest in this whatsoever. THIS is what a real liberal should be thinking about. And yet we hear nothing. What happened to liberals? When did they go off the rails so badly?
Right wing extremism is always provoked by left wing excess. So it's definitely true that the constant attack on authentic Judaism from the left causes the right to dig their heels in. But why then promote this patronizing claptrap of "gently* encouraging people use to money instead, i.e.. stop doing kapporos? Why do you on the left continue to think that all things can be sold to the stoopid masses, if its just packaged right?
Here's a better solution, which actually has a chance to work: "Gently" tell critics to stop thinking about religious Jews, and get their own house in order first. Maybe then, in the new freedom from attacks by haters, the right will make the changes it believes necessary.
The idea that this is a left v. right issue is so preposterous as to be laughable. The thought that treating animals in an enlightened manner is somehow against 'authentic' Judaism is likewise preposterous. The thought that Jews might consider such murky rituals as unnecessary, unenlightened and frankly, pagan in origin (as per Shulchan Aruch) and that you consider the Shukchan Aruch as 'left' is beyond parody.
Ein Adam choteh elah im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus.
The foolishness of believing it's easier to get animal rights activists to leave jews alone from needlessly harming animals than to get bnei Avraham Yitzchak and Yaakov rachmanim bnei rachmanim to take better care of the chickens without stopping the minhag of kapparos at all , or getting them to switch to money which is already very popular , is the prerequisite for the sin of ignoring our own faults because someone else has a different problem.
( p.s. we know packaging works. The haskala proved that )
I remember, as a youngster, back in late 40s or early 50s. We had chickens in a box in the kitchen. After 'shluggin', birds went to my great uncle (Shochet) for slaughter and dispersal to needy families.
It is well documented that most of the dead birds wind up in a garbage dumpster. There r no on-site facilities to process the birds for food, and it would be an economical loss to ship them back to facilities to even try to do so.
Do not kid yourselves, Shluggers! No 'ani will ever get to eat your chicken.
I knew an ani once that said she was given two dead chickens two hours before the zman. Warm, not gutted, soaked or salted. Not even de-feathered.
That sounds like an awful story, Frank! For the most part, aniim prefer cash donations over goods. If they live anywhere near a market, they can get whatever they need and want more quickly and efficiently. What good is a tsedaka item if it will not be fully utilized, and hopefully enjoyed?
If an ani is hoping to make a brisket for Yontif, I would rather contribute to the cost of that dinner 2 weeks in advance than a chicken her kids do not like! Tsedaka MUST take into account the recipient's dignity!
Oh, I'll add this. Gevirim seem to think that ani'im are so irresponsible that giving them money is counterproductive. That they ARE ani'im is proof that they're irresponsible.
Exactly.
I think blaming the aniim is not a widespread attitude among the frum. Most Haredim have extended families or co-congregates who experience poverty thru no fault of their own. Some aniim have large families where the head of household earns very little due to lack of employable skills.
and as to "no on-site facilities".... i was literally at one two days ago and can send you videos of the processing facility...so "well documented"...errm yep but I like the confidence either way.
well documented...where?
See from 8:30 onward, chicken carcasses in Williamsburg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PccGaPRJB5k
aha "well documented " means you have watched a youtube clip on it.
Doniel, that video was only 1 example. PETA has many more examples.
Almost every year, the local papers run pictures of Orthodox groups and some rabbis protesting the slaughter. The NY Post often has pictures of chicken carcasses for disposal. The poultry business is low-margin and very labor intensive. Transporting with refrigeration to a facility in Jersey to quickly process a shipment of a few days' worth of many 1000's of is not worth the costs. I do not think the mashgiach of a kosher facility would even accept chix already-shechted off-site.
then that would be a problem with the system rather than the minhag itself, in jerusalem everything is processed in one area and it is extremely efficient.
I dont really care whether you want to do kapporas or not it just strikes me as another feeble jibe at charedi practice/
No, my concern for the welfare of animals is my only motivation for pointing out the realistic truth of kapporas is not an excuse, feeble or otherwise, to shun the ritual.
Glad to hear about the efficiency of Jerusalem's K-program. But, that is usually not the case in US, and whether the chix make it to the 'aniim is a consideration whether to do K. U have to work with the system u have when choosing minhagim, especially those without universal support. Another time we can talk about Haredi minhagim and lifestyles that may have a negative impact on society's welfare.
Thanks for a nuanced approach
People on both sides tend to get quite partisan about it but your treatment is balanced
You omitted the other criticisms of the chicken usage such as those by ערוך השולחן
Quite clear from his words that mass scale practice of this Minhag can cause issues. Maybe it only ever was performed by individuals with their household chickens
And im guessing you are pro the minhag?
Though I have never personally used a chicken, I would certainly dig in my heels, when I hear of the "civilized" non-Jewish and Jewish liberals who are seeking to ban things not just kaporos, but things like shchita and bris mila. They've already managed to succeed with their agenda in most of Europe.
"It would seem that causing needless suffering to animals is a Biblical prohibition that far outweighs the value of a custom."
Your wrong! Even if the custom of swinging is "needless," if its then given to poor families WHICH MOST ARE there is nothing more VALUBLE this chicken can do!!
Thanks for the great post. I'm just curious where the Ramban and Rashba protest this custom?
How about some non rationalistic news!
https://open.substack.com/pub/doniel/p/alarming-news?r=2842py&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Keep it up. This balanced approach is the way to go. Maybe by making Kapparos standards for chickens be BETTER than industry standards, we will merit extra compassion from above.
" The Tur states that after slaughtering the chicken, there is a custom to throw its innards on the roof for birds to eat. Taz and Aruch haShulchan state that the reason for this is to show compassion for other creatures and thereby to earn Divine compassion. "
I didn't grow up with kapporot. To me, that "justification" -- to kill one bird unnecessarily, and then claim credit for "compassion" because you fed its guts to other birds -- comes pretty close to a chillul haShem.
But I'm vegetarian, and don't practice "authentic Judaism", so I may be biased.
. Charles
@charles,
You’re not biased. You’re just not mesmerized with the scatterbrained notion that you can get God to change his mind by transference of sin to chicken. But on the other hand, if you can do it with a goat, why not a chicken.?
“shlugin” ” (wish I knew how to spell it in Yiddish) means beat , if my Yiddish memory serves me correctly. Did the folks in the olden days bop the chickens in the head after saying a few bruchos?
It actually means to swing, like to swing a bat. like in baseball a major hitter can be called a "slugger". And yes, you can swing a punch to. I think that's what's confusing you.
I stand corrected, just checked that with my Hungarian mother:)
good question then.
We have chickens, and we use live chickens for kaparos. We feel it's more memorable to use chickens, and we also get to say the bracha with the shchita.
The place we go to actually salts and feathers the chickens and uses them in school lunches.
We feel more comfortable with this set up than the typical one you describe.
There are many kapparos sights that are on a very low scale and in a backyard with only a few dozen chickens, handled in a very decent manner. I try to do that myself. Any big one I stay away from, partially for the above reason, but mainly because I don't get a good feeling of this being commercialized and also with so many chickens the stench is a bit too much to bare.
Not sure what you are talking about, I've done Kapparos in Israel and in US and many different places and everyone still uses male for male and female for female. (Honestly this part makes no sense to me, even by korbanos we are not makpid on this.) So that means the minhag is still prevalent.
Korbanos are gender specific, but not to the gender bringing them, unless a gender specific korban like a yoledes.
Like I said, I have observed otherwise, but maybe other places I haven't been to are different.
I assume you are responding to me? (some times the thread gets messed up) I have no problem when people learn a sugya and feel towards one side כך היא דרכה של תורה. I just was a bit confused when you made it sound like even the Rama would agree to this, and I don't think it is the same, as I explained to yidpashut. (I was initially turned off when you said you "don't hold" of kapparos, like its the mechaber Rama and you, but I think you just mean you are מכריע this way.)
We act out like it's a korban, so it should remind us of our sins. I agree with you on that.
But it is not a problem of looking like kodshim because we don't associate it like a korban, as opposed to pesach when its a lamb, and there are some places (today all) that stay away from all meat roasted. If there were places that considered chickens to look like a korban, it would be forbidden to do kapparos there too.
Exactly. My point is that it is only because we are a makpid on it there that it is a problem. By Kaparos מקומות נהגו להבחין so it is not a problem.
I understand you feel he would be לשיטתו in both cases, but I feel it is different, as I explain above.
I hear what you are saying but please explain why we can have a roasted zroa on the table and that's fine as long as we don't point at it, and yet we can't even say the words "this meat is for pesach". For some reason certain things are looked at to be associated more than others. I guess because a korbon pesach used to be eaten the night of pesach but a "korban Chicken was never brought erev yom kippur. Even if this doesn't make sense to diffrentuate, that doesn't mean the minhag doesn't carry over.