Over 70 billion chickens are horrifically tortured every year, the kapparot are a drop in the ocean. This is about your stupid feud with the chareidim, not animal welfare. You don't care about the chickens at all. Not one bit.
There is no way to humanely grow and slaughter 70 billion chickens. This is why I'm vegan. I hope someday we will have artificial meat or a procedure to remove the chicken's cerebral cortex.
You should do some research on how animals are treated in modern intensive factory farms. Spoiler: you can't grow 70 billion chickens a year without making them extremely uncomfortable.
You just told Uriah's wife you wouldn't slaughter chickens at all, period, even if it could be done, as you define it, humanely. Which shows that this has nothing to do with the conditions surrounding shechita, just like to NS it has nothing to do with chickens at all.
You and NS are giving great chizuk to charedim (or you would, if they read this blog) and confirming that they are 1000% to refuse to give in. Because like the "circumcision is barbaric" gang in Germany, it's never REALLY about what they claim it is, isn't it?
No I'm not against eating animals in principle if they have lives worth living before being slaughtered. It's the torture, not the killing per se, that I'm against.
(I edited the comment because it conveyed the opposite of what I meant)
I wasn't thinking about shechitah. I'm not really thinking about slaughter in general tbh; slaughter is the least awful part of the whole process. Though now that you mention it, I suppose stunning should be required.
Well, OK, its your opinion, I can respect it without agreeing with it.
What really interests me tho is why is it we rarely see such concern from the left about actual human beings? There are nearly two million men locked up in prisons in the US, thankfully down from the millions of a few years ago. Even in the "best" of prisons, they are locked away for their entire lives in tiny little cells. This was unheard of for all of history till around the early 19th century. It's horrific, mind-bogglingly unspeakable. And yet the left of today seems to take no interest in this whatsoever. THIS is what a real liberal should be thinking about. And yet we hear nothing. What happened to liberals? When did they go off the rails so badly?
Right wing extremism is always provoked by left wing excess. So it's definitely true that the constant attack on authentic Judaism from the left causes the right to dig their heels in. But why then promote this patronizing claptrap of "gently* encouraging people use to money instead, i.e.. stop doing kapporos? Why do you on the left continue to think that all things can be sold to the stoopid masses, if its just packaged right?
Here's a better solution, which actually has a chance to work: "Gently" tell critics to stop thinking about religious Jews, and get their own house in order first. Maybe then, in the new freedom from attacks by haters, the right will make the changes it believes necessary.
The idea that this is a left v. right issue is so preposterous as to be laughable. The thought that treating animals in an enlightened manner is somehow against 'authentic' Judaism is likewise preposterous. The thought that Jews might consider such murky rituals as unnecessary, unenlightened and frankly, pagan in origin (as per Shulchan Aruch) and that you consider the Shukchan Aruch as 'left' is beyond parody.
Ein Adam choteh elah im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus.
The foolishness of believing it's easier to get animal rights activists to leave jews alone from needlessly harming animals than to get bnei Avraham Yitzchak and Yaakov rachmanim bnei rachmanim to take better care of the chickens without stopping the minhag of kapparos at all , or getting them to switch to money which is already very popular , is the prerequisite for the sin of ignoring our own faults because someone else has a different problem.
( p.s. we know packaging works. The haskala proved that )
I remember, as a youngster, back in late 40s or early 50s. We had chickens in a box in the kitchen. After 'shluggin', birds went to my great uncle (Shochet) for slaughter and dispersal to needy families.
It is well documented that most of the dead birds wind up in a garbage dumpster. There r no on-site facilities to process the birds for food, and it would be an economical loss to ship them back to facilities to even try to do so.
Do not kid yourselves, Shluggers! No 'ani will ever get to eat your chicken.
That sounds like an awful story, Frank! For the most part, aniim prefer cash donations over goods. If they live anywhere near a market, they can get whatever they need and want more quickly and efficiently. What good is a tsedaka item if it will not be fully utilized, and hopefully enjoyed?
If an ani is hoping to make a brisket for Yontif, I would rather contribute to the cost of that dinner 2 weeks in advance than a chicken her kids do not like! Tsedaka MUST take into account the recipient's dignity!
Oh, I'll add this. Gevirim seem to think that ani'im are so irresponsible that giving them money is counterproductive. That they ARE ani'im is proof that they're irresponsible.
I think blaming the aniim is not a widespread attitude among the frum. Most Haredim have extended families or co-congregates who experience poverty thru no fault of their own. Some aniim have large families where the head of household earns very little due to lack of employable skills.
and as to "no on-site facilities".... i was literally at one two days ago and can send you videos of the processing facility...so "well documented"...errm yep but I like the confidence either way.
Doniel, that video was only 1 example. PETA has many more examples.
Almost every year, the local papers run pictures of Orthodox groups and some rabbis protesting the slaughter. The NY Post often has pictures of chicken carcasses for disposal. The poultry business is low-margin and very labor intensive. Transporting with refrigeration to a facility in Jersey to quickly process a shipment of a few days' worth of many 1000's of is not worth the costs. I do not think the mashgiach of a kosher facility would even accept chix already-shechted off-site.
then that would be a problem with the system rather than the minhag itself, in jerusalem everything is processed in one area and it is extremely efficient.
I dont really care whether you want to do kapporas or not it just strikes me as another feeble jibe at charedi practice/
No, my concern for the welfare of animals is my only motivation for pointing out the realistic truth of kapporas is not an excuse, feeble or otherwise, to shun the ritual.
Glad to hear about the efficiency of Jerusalem's K-program. But, that is usually not the case in US, and whether the chix make it to the 'aniim is a consideration whether to do K. U have to work with the system u have when choosing minhagim, especially those without universal support. Another time we can talk about Haredi minhagim and lifestyles that may have a negative impact on society's welfare.
You omitted the other criticisms of the chicken usage such as those by ערוך השולחן
Quite clear from his words that mass scale practice of this Minhag can cause issues. Maybe it only ever was performed by individuals with their household chickens
Though I have never personally used a chicken, I would certainly dig in my heels, when I hear of the "civilized" non-Jewish and Jewish liberals who are seeking to ban things not just kaporos, but things like shchita and bris mila. They've already managed to succeed with their agenda in most of Europe.
"It would seem that causing needless suffering to animals is a Biblical prohibition that far outweighs the value of a custom."
Your wrong! Even if the custom of swinging is "needless," if its then given to poor families WHICH MOST ARE there is nothing more VALUBLE this chicken can do!!
Keep it up. This balanced approach is the way to go. Maybe by making Kapparos standards for chickens be BETTER than industry standards, we will merit extra compassion from above.
" The Tur states that after slaughtering the chicken, there is a custom to throw its innards on the roof for birds to eat. Taz and Aruch haShulchan state that the reason for this is to show compassion for other creatures and thereby to earn Divine compassion. "
I didn't grow up with kapporot. To me, that "justification" -- to kill one bird unnecessarily, and then claim credit for "compassion" because you fed its guts to other birds -- comes pretty close to a chillul haShem.
But I'm vegetarian, and don't practice "authentic Judaism", so I may be biased.
You’re not biased. You’re just not mesmerized with the scatterbrained notion that you can get God to change his mind by transference of sin to chicken. But on the other hand, if you can do it with a goat, why not a chicken.?
“shlugin” ” (wish I knew how to spell it in Yiddish) means beat , if my Yiddish memory serves me correctly. Did the folks in the olden days bop the chickens in the head after saying a few bruchos?
We have chickens, and we use live chickens for kaparos. We feel it's more memorable to use chickens, and we also get to say the bracha with the shchita.
The place we go to actually salts and feathers the chickens and uses them in school lunches.
We feel more comfortable with this set up than the typical one you describe.
This was never given the status of 'halochoh' so the 'halachik process' is not relevant here.
"In London, I am told". Don't believe everything you are told. Maybe a few chassidim in Hendon. Most don't, and yes, like the mechaber, find it primitive darchei ha'amori. The attraction to AZlike ritual lies deep in the human phsyce. How can teshuvoh be so diffuclt when you just pagen like wave a chicken round your head as an exchange. Chazal said teshivoh, tefillah, tzedokoh. Nothing about waving chickens.
It's similar to the shmittah esrogim that are supposedly shipped back to EY. Yeah, right. Pull the other one. And the signs that say 'nitchan l'acher pesach' straight after pesach. That is true, but come shevuos all the old sold stock is out again.
There is no such thing as 'the halochoh'. Go look at sefer minhag yisroel torah. It's entire purpose is to justify deviations from halochoh followed by the chassisim. And the mekor he brings, 99% of the time, is some Rebbe or other. Nothing better than that.
Halochoh is a wild west. Selling chometz the mass way it is done today is very dodgy. But you will never find any mass protest (I accept many don't use it, true) but the mass protests that we see against things like eruvin or hetter mechirah are not there. Ditto hetter iskah which is used in cases far beyond its original parameters. And yes, all can be justified l'halochoh. As I have said before, chareidim are very good at justifing whatever THEY want to do with all sorts of sevoros, but they are never prepared to extend the same courtesy to other groups. Go enjoy your kiddush shabbos morning on a thimblefull of schnapps. Yes, I know the apparent support from a taz. Yawn.
Next you will be telling me it is accepted halochoh not to cut a boys hair before age 3, the yeshivoh workd took that from the chassisim, who took it from the sefardim, who took it from knowbody knows ( a bunch of nomadic arabs who have the same custom)? But let's reverse engineer it into orloh somehow, so that's ok. And it's ancient minhag carried out by non-primitive people so it must be ok.
It's broader than that. You made a sweeping statement, "The Halacha permitted it". It's that concept I am challenging. There is not such thing as 'the halochoh'.
Chickens are never brought as a korban, hence it could not be misconstrued as one.
You are correct that all chickens are transported this way, this is industry standard. But the post is misguided for more fundamental reasons, as I noted above, so I didn't bother pointing that out.
The Rama is deferring to minhag. It's not the same as endorsing the reasoning behind the minhag
(Especially when discussing "best practice" rather than "Din" . The distinction between "ikar hadin " and "best practice " is something commonly misunderstood especially since the terminology used for both is often the same (אסור, חייב, מצוה) this issue is at least as old as the gemara ("מצוה לגבי רשות חובה קרי ליה")
Arguments between great rabbis as to the status of some din or another has led to massive disputes.
Worthy of an article from RNS?
It has been thought this distinction is behind the cavalier attitude to zman tefila among many hasidic masters)
Over 70 billion chickens are horrifically tortured every year, the kapparot are a drop in the ocean. This is about your stupid feud with the chareidim, not animal welfare. You don't care about the chickens at all. Not one bit.
@Dov,
So how would you humanely slaughter all those 70 billion chickens?
There is no way to humanely grow and slaughter 70 billion chickens. This is why I'm vegan. I hope someday we will have artificial meat or a procedure to remove the chicken's cerebral cortex.
("Liked" only to the extent that the commenter is correct that this post has nothing to do with chickens, not the "sadistically tortured" bit.)
You should do some research on how animals are treated in modern intensive factory farms. Spoiler: you can't grow 70 billion chickens a year without making them extremely uncomfortable.
You just told Uriah's wife you wouldn't slaughter chickens at all, period, even if it could be done, as you define it, humanely. Which shows that this has nothing to do with the conditions surrounding shechita, just like to NS it has nothing to do with chickens at all.
You and NS are giving great chizuk to charedim (or you would, if they read this blog) and confirming that they are 1000% to refuse to give in. Because like the "circumcision is barbaric" gang in Germany, it's never REALLY about what they claim it is, isn't it?
No I'm not against eating animals in principle if they have lives worth living before being slaughtered. It's the torture, not the killing per se, that I'm against.
(I edited the comment because it conveyed the opposite of what I meant)
I wasn't thinking about shechitah. I'm not really thinking about slaughter in general tbh; slaughter is the least awful part of the whole process. Though now that you mention it, I suppose stunning should be required.
Well, OK, its your opinion, I can respect it without agreeing with it.
What really interests me tho is why is it we rarely see such concern from the left about actual human beings? There are nearly two million men locked up in prisons in the US, thankfully down from the millions of a few years ago. Even in the "best" of prisons, they are locked away for their entire lives in tiny little cells. This was unheard of for all of history till around the early 19th century. It's horrific, mind-bogglingly unspeakable. And yet the left of today seems to take no interest in this whatsoever. THIS is what a real liberal should be thinking about. And yet we hear nothing. What happened to liberals? When did they go off the rails so badly?
Right wing extremism is always provoked by left wing excess. So it's definitely true that the constant attack on authentic Judaism from the left causes the right to dig their heels in. But why then promote this patronizing claptrap of "gently* encouraging people use to money instead, i.e.. stop doing kapporos? Why do you on the left continue to think that all things can be sold to the stoopid masses, if its just packaged right?
Here's a better solution, which actually has a chance to work: "Gently" tell critics to stop thinking about religious Jews, and get their own house in order first. Maybe then, in the new freedom from attacks by haters, the right will make the changes it believes necessary.
The idea that this is a left v. right issue is so preposterous as to be laughable. The thought that treating animals in an enlightened manner is somehow against 'authentic' Judaism is likewise preposterous. The thought that Jews might consider such murky rituals as unnecessary, unenlightened and frankly, pagan in origin (as per Shulchan Aruch) and that you consider the Shukchan Aruch as 'left' is beyond parody.
Ein Adam choteh elah im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus.
The foolishness of believing it's easier to get animal rights activists to leave jews alone from needlessly harming animals than to get bnei Avraham Yitzchak and Yaakov rachmanim bnei rachmanim to take better care of the chickens without stopping the minhag of kapparos at all , or getting them to switch to money which is already very popular , is the prerequisite for the sin of ignoring our own faults because someone else has a different problem.
( p.s. we know packaging works. The haskala proved that )
I remember, as a youngster, back in late 40s or early 50s. We had chickens in a box in the kitchen. After 'shluggin', birds went to my great uncle (Shochet) for slaughter and dispersal to needy families.
It is well documented that most of the dead birds wind up in a garbage dumpster. There r no on-site facilities to process the birds for food, and it would be an economical loss to ship them back to facilities to even try to do so.
Do not kid yourselves, Shluggers! No 'ani will ever get to eat your chicken.
I knew an ani once that said she was given two dead chickens two hours before the zman. Warm, not gutted, soaked or salted. Not even de-feathered.
That sounds like an awful story, Frank! For the most part, aniim prefer cash donations over goods. If they live anywhere near a market, they can get whatever they need and want more quickly and efficiently. What good is a tsedaka item if it will not be fully utilized, and hopefully enjoyed?
If an ani is hoping to make a brisket for Yontif, I would rather contribute to the cost of that dinner 2 weeks in advance than a chicken her kids do not like! Tsedaka MUST take into account the recipient's dignity!
Oh, I'll add this. Gevirim seem to think that ani'im are so irresponsible that giving them money is counterproductive. That they ARE ani'im is proof that they're irresponsible.
Exactly.
I think blaming the aniim is not a widespread attitude among the frum. Most Haredim have extended families or co-congregates who experience poverty thru no fault of their own. Some aniim have large families where the head of household earns very little due to lack of employable skills.
and as to "no on-site facilities".... i was literally at one two days ago and can send you videos of the processing facility...so "well documented"...errm yep but I like the confidence either way.
well documented...where?
See from 8:30 onward, chicken carcasses in Williamsburg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PccGaPRJB5k
aha "well documented " means you have watched a youtube clip on it.
Doniel, that video was only 1 example. PETA has many more examples.
Almost every year, the local papers run pictures of Orthodox groups and some rabbis protesting the slaughter. The NY Post often has pictures of chicken carcasses for disposal. The poultry business is low-margin and very labor intensive. Transporting with refrigeration to a facility in Jersey to quickly process a shipment of a few days' worth of many 1000's of is not worth the costs. I do not think the mashgiach of a kosher facility would even accept chix already-shechted off-site.
then that would be a problem with the system rather than the minhag itself, in jerusalem everything is processed in one area and it is extremely efficient.
I dont really care whether you want to do kapporas or not it just strikes me as another feeble jibe at charedi practice/
No, my concern for the welfare of animals is my only motivation for pointing out the realistic truth of kapporas is not an excuse, feeble or otherwise, to shun the ritual.
Glad to hear about the efficiency of Jerusalem's K-program. But, that is usually not the case in US, and whether the chix make it to the 'aniim is a consideration whether to do K. U have to work with the system u have when choosing minhagim, especially those without universal support. Another time we can talk about Haredi minhagim and lifestyles that may have a negative impact on society's welfare.
Thanks for a nuanced approach
People on both sides tend to get quite partisan about it but your treatment is balanced
You omitted the other criticisms of the chicken usage such as those by ערוך השולחן
Quite clear from his words that mass scale practice of this Minhag can cause issues. Maybe it only ever was performed by individuals with their household chickens
And im guessing you are pro the minhag?
Though I have never personally used a chicken, I would certainly dig in my heels, when I hear of the "civilized" non-Jewish and Jewish liberals who are seeking to ban things not just kaporos, but things like shchita and bris mila. They've already managed to succeed with their agenda in most of Europe.
"It would seem that causing needless suffering to animals is a Biblical prohibition that far outweighs the value of a custom."
Your wrong! Even if the custom of swinging is "needless," if its then given to poor families WHICH MOST ARE there is nothing more VALUBLE this chicken can do!!
Thanks for the great post. I'm just curious where the Ramban and Rashba protest this custom?
How about some non rationalistic news!
https://open.substack.com/pub/doniel/p/alarming-news?r=2842py&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Keep it up. This balanced approach is the way to go. Maybe by making Kapparos standards for chickens be BETTER than industry standards, we will merit extra compassion from above.
" The Tur states that after slaughtering the chicken, there is a custom to throw its innards on the roof for birds to eat. Taz and Aruch haShulchan state that the reason for this is to show compassion for other creatures and thereby to earn Divine compassion. "
I didn't grow up with kapporot. To me, that "justification" -- to kill one bird unnecessarily, and then claim credit for "compassion" because you fed its guts to other birds -- comes pretty close to a chillul haShem.
But I'm vegetarian, and don't practice "authentic Judaism", so I may be biased.
. Charles
@charles,
You’re not biased. You’re just not mesmerized with the scatterbrained notion that you can get God to change his mind by transference of sin to chicken. But on the other hand, if you can do it with a goat, why not a chicken.?
“shlugin” ” (wish I knew how to spell it in Yiddish) means beat , if my Yiddish memory serves me correctly. Did the folks in the olden days bop the chickens in the head after saying a few bruchos?
We have chickens, and we use live chickens for kaparos. We feel it's more memorable to use chickens, and we also get to say the bracha with the shchita.
The place we go to actually salts and feathers the chickens and uses them in school lunches.
We feel more comfortable with this set up than the typical one you describe.
This was never given the status of 'halochoh' so the 'halachik process' is not relevant here.
"In London, I am told". Don't believe everything you are told. Maybe a few chassidim in Hendon. Most don't, and yes, like the mechaber, find it primitive darchei ha'amori. The attraction to AZlike ritual lies deep in the human phsyce. How can teshuvoh be so diffuclt when you just pagen like wave a chicken round your head as an exchange. Chazal said teshivoh, tefillah, tzedokoh. Nothing about waving chickens.
It's similar to the shmittah esrogim that are supposedly shipped back to EY. Yeah, right. Pull the other one. And the signs that say 'nitchan l'acher pesach' straight after pesach. That is true, but come shevuos all the old sold stock is out again.
There is no such thing as 'the halochoh'. Go look at sefer minhag yisroel torah. It's entire purpose is to justify deviations from halochoh followed by the chassisim. And the mekor he brings, 99% of the time, is some Rebbe or other. Nothing better than that.
Halochoh is a wild west. Selling chometz the mass way it is done today is very dodgy. But you will never find any mass protest (I accept many don't use it, true) but the mass protests that we see against things like eruvin or hetter mechirah are not there. Ditto hetter iskah which is used in cases far beyond its original parameters. And yes, all can be justified l'halochoh. As I have said before, chareidim are very good at justifing whatever THEY want to do with all sorts of sevoros, but they are never prepared to extend the same courtesy to other groups. Go enjoy your kiddush shabbos morning on a thimblefull of schnapps. Yes, I know the apparent support from a taz. Yawn.
Next you will be telling me it is accepted halochoh not to cut a boys hair before age 3, the yeshivoh workd took that from the chassisim, who took it from the sefardim, who took it from knowbody knows ( a bunch of nomadic arabs who have the same custom)? But let's reverse engineer it into orloh somehow, so that's ok. And it's ancient minhag carried out by non-primitive people so it must be ok.
It's broader than that. You made a sweeping statement, "The Halacha permitted it". It's that concept I am challenging. There is not such thing as 'the halochoh'.
Dunno. Are we obligated to uphold minhagim started by primitive but well meaning people?
Thinking people don't. Those that research minhogim and generally come to a blank, don't.
Others just say 'it's the mesorah' and follow like chickens.
Do you think you are wiser or smarter than the mechaber? Did the mechaber not think of your point?
Actually we are far more learned now than the typical Eastern European Jew a few hundred years ago surrounded by Cathocism and all that goes with it.
Speak for yourself. Other point to the hundreds of thousands 'in learning'.
Chickens are never brought as a korban, hence it could not be misconstrued as one.
You are correct that all chickens are transported this way, this is industry standard. But the post is misguided for more fundamental reasons, as I noted above, so I didn't bother pointing that out.
If that is the case, since chickens do not lactate, u should not worry that chicken parmigiana would lead to zicher basar b'chalav.
The point about chickens not being possible to be misconstrued as a sacrifice is mentioned explicitly in halacha.
GCH"T.
The Rama is deferring to minhag. It's not the same as endorsing the reasoning behind the minhag
(Especially when discussing "best practice" rather than "Din" . The distinction between "ikar hadin " and "best practice " is something commonly misunderstood especially since the terminology used for both is often the same (אסור, חייב, מצוה) this issue is at least as old as the gemara ("מצוה לגבי רשות חובה קרי ליה")
Arguments between great rabbis as to the status of some din or another has led to massive disputes.
Worthy of an article from RNS?
It has been thought this distinction is behind the cavalier attitude to zman tefila among many hasidic masters)