Over 70 billion chickens are horrifically tortured every year, the kapparot are a drop in the ocean. This is about your stupid feud with the chareidim, not animal welfare. You don't care about the chickens at all. Not one bit.
There is no way to humanely grow and slaughter 70 billion chickens. This is why I'm vegan. I hope someday we will have artificial meat or a procedure to remove the chicken's cerebral cortex.
You should do some research on how animals are treated in modern intensive factory farms. Spoiler: you can't grow 70 billion chickens a year without making them extremely uncomfortable.
You just told Uriah's wife you wouldn't slaughter chickens at all, period, even if it could be done, as you define it, humanely. Which shows that this has nothing to do with the conditions surrounding shechita, just like to NS it has nothing to do with chickens at all.
You and NS are giving great chizuk to charedim (or you would, if they read this blog) and confirming that they are 1000% to refuse to give in. Because like the "circumcision is barbaric" gang in Germany, it's never REALLY about what they claim it is, isn't it?
No I'm not against eating animals in principle if they have lives worth living before being slaughtered. It's the torture, not the killing per se, that I'm against.
(I edited the comment because it conveyed the opposite of what I meant)
I wasn't thinking about shechitah. I'm not really thinking about slaughter in general tbh; slaughter is the least awful part of the whole process. Though now that you mention it, I suppose stunning should be required.
Well, OK, its your opinion, I can respect it without agreeing with it.
What really interests me tho is why is it we rarely see such concern from the left about actual human beings? There are nearly two million men locked up in prisons in the US, thankfully down from the millions of a few years ago. Even in the "best" of prisons, they are locked away for their entire lives in tiny little cells. This was unheard of for all of history till around the early 19th century. It's horrific, mind-bogglingly unspeakable. And yet the left of today seems to take no interest in this whatsoever. THIS is what a real liberal should be thinking about. And yet we hear nothing. What happened to liberals? When did they go off the rails so badly?
Right wing extremism is always provoked by left wing excess. So it's definitely true that the constant attack on authentic Judaism from the left causes the right to dig their heels in. But why then promote this patronizing claptrap of "gently* encouraging people use to money instead, i.e.. stop doing kapporos? Why do you on the left continue to think that all things can be sold to the stoopid masses, if its just packaged right?
Here's a better solution, which actually has a chance to work: "Gently" tell critics to stop thinking about religious Jews, and get their own house in order first. Maybe then, in the new freedom from attacks by haters, the right will make the changes it believes necessary.
The idea that this is a left v. right issue is so preposterous as to be laughable. The thought that treating animals in an enlightened manner is somehow against 'authentic' Judaism is likewise preposterous. The thought that Jews might consider such murky rituals as unnecessary, unenlightened and frankly, pagan in origin (as per Shulchan Aruch) and that you consider the Shukchan Aruch as 'left' is beyond parody.
Ein Adam choteh elah im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus.
The foolishness of believing it's easier to get animal rights activists to leave jews alone from needlessly harming animals than to get bnei Avraham Yitzchak and Yaakov rachmanim bnei rachmanim to take better care of the chickens without stopping the minhag of kapparos at all , or getting them to switch to money which is already very popular , is the prerequisite for the sin of ignoring our own faults because someone else has a different problem.
( p.s. we know packaging works. The haskala proved that )
40 years ago I used to shecht kapporos, but since then I have eschewed the custom for Halachic reasons, based on the psak of the Bais Yosef (later written in the Shulchan Aruch) despite the Rema, even those I am Ashkenazi. We are so makpid not to broil meat at the Pesach seder meal, lest it be misconstrued as a korban shechutei chutz. Kal V'chomer Kapporos, which when you think about can only be construed as a korbon (as you mentioned). Therefore I don't hold of kapporos, even with money. Look in Rambam, the Day of Yom Kippur, is the only Kapporah one needs... after taking the steps of Teshuvah. Giving Tsedaka stam also doesn't hurt (But I don't waive it over my head saying "this is instead of my life.")
However, Noson, you are incorrect in that you opine that chickens packed together in a crate is Tzar Baalei Chaim. As a matter of fact in the winter they pack more in the crate so the chickens should not die of cold. In the summer less in the crate so they should not die from heat. ALL chickens, not just kapporos are packed that way, so complain to Empire who process 100s of millions of chickens not just the few thousand for kapporos.
Chickens are never brought as a korban, hence it could not be misconstrued as one.
You are correct that all chickens are transported this way, this is industry standard. But the post is misguided for more fundamental reasons, as I noted above, so I didn't bother pointing that out.
Garvin, you are completely wrong and lack Torah understanding. Just because a chicken is not among the animals that are prescribed for korbanos, a person could sacrifice one misconstruing it to be a korbon, which would be a grievous sin for many reasons. Furthermore, as I noted, The Rema paskens that at the pesach seder meal it is prohibited to eat ANY broiled meat, even chicken, since it could be misconstrued as a korbon pesach that requires broiling. It is from this Lamdus that I deduced that the entire idea of kapporos may not be a good idea. It certainly is more comparable to a korbon than a broiled chicken dinner on pesach that no one is waiving over his head stating, "this should be in my place."
Cite me where it is mentioned explicitly in halacha that a chicken is not possible to misconstrue as a sacrifice. If you have been following this thread you can see where I cited the Shulchan
Aruch that is explicit that a chicken can be misconstrued for a korbon.
Furthermore, it doesn't say anywhere that for kapporos you have to use a chicken. You can use a pigeon just the same, and that is a species used for a korbon. Because you lack Torah scholarship, you tend to conflate matters.
The Rama is deferring to minhag. It's not the same as endorsing the reasoning behind the minhag
(Especially when discussing "best practice" rather than "Din" . The distinction between "ikar hadin " and "best practice " is something commonly misunderstood especially since the terminology used for both is often the same (אסור, חייב, מצוה) this issue is at least as old as the gemara ("מצוה לגבי רשות חובה קרי ליה")
Arguments between great rabbis as to the status of some din or another has led to massive disputes.
Worthy of an article from RNS?
It has been thought this distinction is behind the cavalier attitude to zman tefila among many hasidic masters)
I don't disagree with the idea you bring up, but in this specific case the Rama adds the words ואין לשנות. The Rama is very soft on how he stands behind any minhag and if he was just deferring to minhag he rights ואנו נוהגים or והמנהג אצלנו but adding ואין לשנות means he holds of it.
Additionally to sender Goldberg who "doesn't hold" of kapparos because it is like kodshim and doesn't make a distinction between animals used for the korban or not, the Shulchan aruch is clear that regarding pesach this depends on the minhag hamakom, not ikkur din. Ikkur din would only include whats used for a korban, so in this case the minhag is not to be concerned that it looks like kodshim.
I remember, as a youngster, back in late 40s or early 50s. We had chickens in a box in the kitchen. After 'shluggin', birds went to my great uncle (Shochet) for slaughter and dispersal to needy families.
It is well documented that most of the dead birds wind up in a garbage dumpster. There r no on-site facilities to process the birds for food, and it would be an economical loss to ship them back to facilities to even try to do so.
Do not kid yourselves, Shluggers! No 'ani will ever get to eat your chicken.
That sounds like an awful story, Frank! For the most part, aniim prefer cash donations over goods. If they live anywhere near a market, they can get whatever they need and want more quickly and efficiently. What good is a tsedaka item if it will not be fully utilized, and hopefully enjoyed?
If an ani is hoping to make a brisket for Yontif, I would rather contribute to the cost of that dinner 2 weeks in advance than a chicken her kids do not like! Tsedaka MUST take into account the recipient's dignity!
Oh, I'll add this. Gevirim seem to think that ani'im are so irresponsible that giving them money is counterproductive. That they ARE ani'im is proof that they're irresponsible.
I think blaming the aniim is not a widespread attitude among the frum. Most Haredim have extended families or co-congregates who experience poverty thru no fault of their own. Some aniim have large families where the head of household earns very little due to lack of employable skills.
and as to "no on-site facilities".... i was literally at one two days ago and can send you videos of the processing facility...so "well documented"...errm yep but I like the confidence either way.
Doniel, that video was only 1 example. PETA has many more examples.
Almost every year, the local papers run pictures of Orthodox groups and some rabbis protesting the slaughter. The NY Post often has pictures of chicken carcasses for disposal. The poultry business is low-margin and very labor intensive. Transporting with refrigeration to a facility in Jersey to quickly process a shipment of a few days' worth of many 1000's of is not worth the costs. I do not think the mashgiach of a kosher facility would even accept chix already-shechted off-site.
then that would be a problem with the system rather than the minhag itself, in jerusalem everything is processed in one area and it is extremely efficient.
I dont really care whether you want to do kapporas or not it just strikes me as another feeble jibe at charedi practice/
No, my concern for the welfare of animals is my only motivation for pointing out the realistic truth of kapporas is not an excuse, feeble or otherwise, to shun the ritual.
Glad to hear about the efficiency of Jerusalem's K-program. But, that is usually not the case in US, and whether the chix make it to the 'aniim is a consideration whether to do K. U have to work with the system u have when choosing minhagim, especially those without universal support. Another time we can talk about Haredi minhagim and lifestyles that may have a negative impact on society's welfare.
You omitted the other criticisms of the chicken usage such as those by ערוך השולחן
Quite clear from his words that mass scale practice of this Minhag can cause issues. Maybe it only ever was performed by individuals with their household chickens
Though I have never personally used a chicken, I would certainly dig in my heels, when I hear of the "civilized" non-Jewish and Jewish liberals who are seeking to ban things not just kaporos, but things like shchita and bris mila. They've already managed to succeed with their agenda in most of Europe.
"It would seem that causing needless suffering to animals is a Biblical prohibition that far outweighs the value of a custom."
Your wrong! Even if the custom of swinging is "needless," if its then given to poor families WHICH MOST ARE there is nothing more VALUBLE this chicken can do!!
Keep it up. This balanced approach is the way to go. Maybe by making Kapparos standards for chickens be BETTER than industry standards, we will merit extra compassion from above.
" The Tur states that after slaughtering the chicken, there is a custom to throw its innards on the roof for birds to eat. Taz and Aruch haShulchan state that the reason for this is to show compassion for other creatures and thereby to earn Divine compassion. "
I didn't grow up with kapporot. To me, that "justification" -- to kill one bird unnecessarily, and then claim credit for "compassion" because you fed its guts to other birds -- comes pretty close to a chillul haShem.
But I'm vegetarian, and don't practice "authentic Judaism", so I may be biased.
The bird isn't killed 'unnecessarily', it fulfills a purpose in its death.
We then, separately, give the gizzard to other birds.
To me, inventing justifications in order to shoot them down, denigrating Klal Yisroel and its minhagim in the process, is precisely a Chillul Hashem. It is close, from the other side.
You’re not biased. You’re just not mesmerized with the scatterbrained notion that you can get God to change his mind by transference of sin to chicken. But on the other hand, if you can do it with a goat, why not a chicken.?
מה שנוהגים לעשות כפרה בעי״כ לשחוט תרנגול על כל בן זכר ולומר עליו פסוקים יש למנוע המנהג: הגה ויש מהגאונים שכתבו מנהג זה וכן כתבו אותו רבים מן האחרונים וכן נוהגין בכל מדינות אלו ואין לשנות כי הוא מנהג ותיקון ונוהגין ליקח תרנגול זכר לזכר ולנקבה לוקחין תרנגולת (ב״י בשם תשב״ץ) ולוקחין למעוברת ב׳ תרנגולים אולי תלד זכר ובוחרין בתרנגולים לבנים על דרך שנאמר אם יהיו חטאיכם כשנים כשלג ילבינו ונהגו ליתן הכפרות לעניים או לפדותן בממון שנותנים לעניים (מהרי״ל) ויש מקומות שנוהגין לילך על הקברות ולהרבות בצדקה והכל מנהג יפה ויש להסמיך שחיטת הכפרות מיד לאחר שהחזירו עליו וסומך ידיו עליו דמות הקרבן וזורקין בני מעיהם על הגגות או בחצר מקום שהעופות יכולין לקחת משם. (טור) :
This why the Rema is difficult for me. He explicitly says that one acts with Kapporos in a manner that compares it with a Korbon!!!
Furthermore, he states all kinds of rules, like taking a white chicken and a male for a male, female for a female, which are generally not followed anymore. He also does not mention substituting money for a chicken, which must be a new development that was never done until recent times.
Thus, even the minhag, (that I personally subscribe to the psak of the Mechaber (Bais Yosef) who rejects it) is generally no longer kept exactly as the Rema described.
Not sure what you are talking about, I've done Kapparos in Israel and in US and many different places and everyone still uses male for male and female for female. (Honestly this part makes no sense to me, even by korbanos we are not makpid on this.) So that means the minhag is still prevalent.
When using young chickens of up to 8 weeks old (which are the main type Empire uses) it is hard to tell males from females and they don't taste differently. As they age the difference becomes very pronounced. Thus here the majority of chickens used for kapporos are young chickens.
You are correct. I would never pasken for someone else not to do kapporos, I merely informed what I do for myself and the reasoning. I understand the perspective of the Rema, it is just as YidPoshut explained, and although I am an Ashkenazi Jew, the reasoning on this issue is so strong in my opinion, that I have adopted the psak of the Bais Yosef and others.
I will tell you another psak that I have gravitated to the Bais Yosef from the Rema. The Rema paskens a woman must wait a minimum of 5 days from the onset of Niddah to start counting shiva nekiim. The Bais Yosef paskens 4 days. In a case where this difference affects the woman's timing to get pregnant, I pasken (even for others) to be noheg like the Bais Yosef and don't require her to skip a cycle as other poskim have, that won't deviate from the psak of the Rema.
I assume you are responding to me? (some times the thread gets messed up) I have no problem when people learn a sugya and feel towards one side כך היא דרכה של תורה. I just was a bit confused when you made it sound like even the Rama would agree to this, and I don't think it is the same, as I explained to yidpashut. (I was initially turned off when you said you "don't hold" of kapparos, like its the mechaber Rama and you, but I think you just mean you are מכריע this way.)
We act out like it's a korban, so it should remind us of our sins. I agree with you on that.
But it is not a problem of looking like kodshim because we don't associate it like a korban, as opposed to pesach when its a lamb, and there are some places (today all) that stay away from all meat roasted. If there were places that considered chickens to look like a korban, it would be forbidden to do kapparos there too.
א מקום שנהגו לאכול צלי בלילי פסחים אוכלים מקום שנהגו (א) שלא לאכול אין אוכלין גזירה שמא יאמרו בשר פסח הוא ובכל מקום אסור לאכול (ב) שה צלוי (ג) כולו כאחד בלילה זה מפני שנראה כאוכל קדשים בחוץ ואם היה מחותך או שחסר ממנו אבר או שלק בו אבר והוא מחובר הרי זה מותר במקום שנהגו: ) :
ב אפילו בשר עגל ועוף כל דבר שטעון שחיטה אסור לאכול צלי במקום שנהגו שלא לאכול צלי:
The Rema does not argue and all Ashkenazi kehilos are makpid not to eat any tzli (unless brazed with liquid).
Now you are not speaking "tzum zach." When I desire to eat roasted turkey on Pesach, it is purely to enhance the Yom Tov meal because my wife is a great cook. Thinking of it as the korbon pesach is the furthest thing from my mind, and I don't think you could find 1 in a 1000 who would confuse a pesach seder meal with a korbon pesach or any other korbon (chagiga). Yet that is the minhag. As I proved, the Rema himself compared kapporos to a korbon! It is a simple matter that an Am Ha'aretz may think of it like a korbon. Let me tell you a maaseh that happened to me about 40 years ago.
I was still noheg kapporos at the time. I was a shochet and I went with a friend to All City Poultry in Williamsburg to pick out chickens for kapporos. While there a man came over to me and asked me to shecht his chicken for kapporos. I asked where he lived and dovened. He was an Oriental Jew. He said he didn't go to shul, even on Yom Kippur and he didn't keep kosher. He kept absolutely nothing, except for kapporos, which he told me he was meticulous about doing every year before Yom Kippur.
I hear what you are saying but please explain why we can have a roasted zroa on the table and that's fine as long as we don't point at it, and yet we can't even say the words "this meat is for pesach". For some reason certain things are looked at to be associated more than others. I guess because a korbon pesach used to be eaten the night of pesach but a "korban Chicken was never brought erev yom kippur. Even if this doesn't make sense to diffrentuate, that doesn't mean the minhag doesn't carry over.
I never said the minhag doesn't carry over. It is a very widespread Minhag Yisroel, and even if there are big Kashos on it, those who practice it can certainly continue to do so. But I personally am uncomfortable with it because of the Kashos. My Kashos would not be enough for me to not participate with the Tzibbur in it. The reason I am "shev v'al taseh" with the minhag is because Gedolei Hador proclaimed the minhag is Darchei Emori and should be abandoned (Rashba, Ramban, Mechaber Shulachan Aruch) I have the zechus to rely on them. The fact is despite the psak of the Shulchan Aruch, most Sefardim are very into kapporos.
The Tur brings that the wealthy used to do kapporos with a ram, a species fit for a korbon. Others bring it was done with pigeons and that was no problem since they are slaughtered with shechita instead of melika. In the time of the Tur until the time of the Rema, it seems it was widespread to make kapporos like a korbon, even with semicha. the Tur justifies why a chicken was used, but says nothing about it being a species not fit for a korbon. Later, the great Acharonim started raising objections like not using an animal fit for a korbon, not doing semicha. Even during the time of the early Achronim, objections arose against hunting around for davka a white chicken considering that to be Darchei Emori. As I mentioned several times, we don't eat broiled meat Lel Seder, even chicken. And as mentioned, we don't say when buying meat for Lel Seder, "this meat is for Pesach" (even though a butchered piece of meat or chicken can't possibly be construed as a korbon). Many Gedolei Torah among the achronim had serious questions on the minhag of kapporos. My guess is many of them refrained altogether from the minhag, but kept more or less quiet about it.
I don't do kapporos, but I do put money in the kapporos pushke on erev Yom Kippur that will be given to Aniim.
Anyone slightly familiar with the Halachic process can tell you that the Halacha has been decided through years of precedent, all over the world. There is virtually no old community that eschewed this custom, from Sefardim to Ashkenazim.
The Halacha is as settled as Halacha gets. Calling this 'needless' is calling a Minhag Yisroel needless.
Now, obviously that does not allow the companies to mistreat the animals. But the Torah rules on mistreating animals are not the same as PETA's, or even the legal system. Leaving a chicken to fend for itself on the streets is not tza'ar ba'alei chaim, as one example.
I guess the true yardstick would be, when a Kapparos system does follow the rules, do these complainers swing a chicken round their heads? In London, I am told, all chickens are returned to the abbatoir where they are processed as regular chickens. Do people in Hendon then fulfill this custom? Or are they really repulsed by the primitive sight, and use tza'ar ba'alei chaim as an excuse?
This was never given the status of 'halochoh' so the 'halachik process' is not relevant here.
"In London, I am told". Don't believe everything you are told. Maybe a few chassidim in Hendon. Most don't, and yes, like the mechaber, find it primitive darchei ha'amori. The attraction to AZlike ritual lies deep in the human phsyce. How can teshuvoh be so diffuclt when you just pagen like wave a chicken round your head as an exchange. Chazal said teshivoh, tefillah, tzedokoh. Nothing about waving chickens.
It's similar to the shmittah esrogim that are supposedly shipped back to EY. Yeah, right. Pull the other one. And the signs that say 'nitchan l'acher pesach' straight after pesach. That is true, but come shevuos all the old sold stock is out again.
The Halacha permitted it and did not consider it darkei emori. This was the accepted Halacha all over the world. There is no bona-fide posek post- Shulchan Aruch that believed that this was forbidden. Someone who twaddles about in 2023 about darkei emori is showing that he/she knows very little about how Halacha is decided.
Again, tell us when Chazal mentioned 'teshuva tefilla and tzedaka'.
There is no such thing as 'the halochoh'. Go look at sefer minhag yisroel torah. It's entire purpose is to justify deviations from halochoh followed by the chassisim. And the mekor he brings, 99% of the time, is some Rebbe or other. Nothing better than that.
Halochoh is a wild west. Selling chometz the mass way it is done today is very dodgy. But you will never find any mass protest (I accept many don't use it, true) but the mass protests that we see against things like eruvin or hetter mechirah are not there. Ditto hetter iskah which is used in cases far beyond its original parameters. And yes, all can be justified l'halochoh. As I have said before, chareidim are very good at justifing whatever THEY want to do with all sorts of sevoros, but they are never prepared to extend the same courtesy to other groups. Go enjoy your kiddush shabbos morning on a thimblefull of schnapps. Yes, I know the apparent support from a taz. Yawn.
Next you will be telling me it is accepted halochoh not to cut a boys hair before age 3, the yeshivoh workd took that from the chassisim, who took it from the sefardim, who took it from knowbody knows ( a bunch of nomadic arabs who have the same custom)? But let's reverse engineer it into orloh somehow, so that's ok. And it's ancient minhag carried out by non-primitive people so it must be ok.
The discussion here, if you remember, is darkei emori on kapparos. Not your various ailments, or Minhag Yisroel Torah. I don't own a copy, so I have no clue what any of this has to do with me or kapparos.
It's broader than that. You made a sweeping statement, "The Halacha permitted it". It's that concept I am challenging. There is not such thing as 'the halochoh'.
The decided Halacha, the settled Halacha, the decision process that tells us that we don't have any reason to use פסולת גורן ויקב on the Sukkah, or to fast two days of Yom Kippur.
I called that 'the Halacha', and that triggered a rant on your behalf.
Agreed, chazal also never said slichos, tefilas Zaka, tashlich, or a thousand other minhagim we have. So the Rama writes מנהג ותיקין ואין לשנות but this שיטה לא נודע למי knows better and claim most agree with him too. Now its fine to say I am more comfortable with the other shita like Rabbi Goldberg, but the above comment...seriously. (The reason I am replying to you and not שיטה לא נודע למי is he likes dropping his idea and then retreating so he won't be here to read it.)
Over 70 billion chickens are horrifically tortured every year, the kapparot are a drop in the ocean. This is about your stupid feud with the chareidim, not animal welfare. You don't care about the chickens at all. Not one bit.
@Dov,
So how would you humanely slaughter all those 70 billion chickens?
There is no way to humanely grow and slaughter 70 billion chickens. This is why I'm vegan. I hope someday we will have artificial meat or a procedure to remove the chicken's cerebral cortex.
("Liked" only to the extent that the commenter is correct that this post has nothing to do with chickens, not the "sadistically tortured" bit.)
You should do some research on how animals are treated in modern intensive factory farms. Spoiler: you can't grow 70 billion chickens a year without making them extremely uncomfortable.
You just told Uriah's wife you wouldn't slaughter chickens at all, period, even if it could be done, as you define it, humanely. Which shows that this has nothing to do with the conditions surrounding shechita, just like to NS it has nothing to do with chickens at all.
You and NS are giving great chizuk to charedim (or you would, if they read this blog) and confirming that they are 1000% to refuse to give in. Because like the "circumcision is barbaric" gang in Germany, it's never REALLY about what they claim it is, isn't it?
No I'm not against eating animals in principle if they have lives worth living before being slaughtered. It's the torture, not the killing per se, that I'm against.
(I edited the comment because it conveyed the opposite of what I meant)
I wasn't thinking about shechitah. I'm not really thinking about slaughter in general tbh; slaughter is the least awful part of the whole process. Though now that you mention it, I suppose stunning should be required.
Well, OK, its your opinion, I can respect it without agreeing with it.
What really interests me tho is why is it we rarely see such concern from the left about actual human beings? There are nearly two million men locked up in prisons in the US, thankfully down from the millions of a few years ago. Even in the "best" of prisons, they are locked away for their entire lives in tiny little cells. This was unheard of for all of history till around the early 19th century. It's horrific, mind-bogglingly unspeakable. And yet the left of today seems to take no interest in this whatsoever. THIS is what a real liberal should be thinking about. And yet we hear nothing. What happened to liberals? When did they go off the rails so badly?
" This commonly results in the birds being kept in horrifically cramped conditions without food, water or shade."
- This happens to most chickens that are eaten, no?
Yes but 'I' eat chickens, 'others' wave them.
Right wing extremism is always provoked by left wing excess. So it's definitely true that the constant attack on authentic Judaism from the left causes the right to dig their heels in. But why then promote this patronizing claptrap of "gently* encouraging people use to money instead, i.e.. stop doing kapporos? Why do you on the left continue to think that all things can be sold to the stoopid masses, if its just packaged right?
Here's a better solution, which actually has a chance to work: "Gently" tell critics to stop thinking about religious Jews, and get their own house in order first. Maybe then, in the new freedom from attacks by haters, the right will make the changes it believes necessary.
The idea that this is a left v. right issue is so preposterous as to be laughable. The thought that treating animals in an enlightened manner is somehow against 'authentic' Judaism is likewise preposterous. The thought that Jews might consider such murky rituals as unnecessary, unenlightened and frankly, pagan in origin (as per Shulchan Aruch) and that you consider the Shukchan Aruch as 'left' is beyond parody.
Ein Adam choteh elah im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus.
The foolishness of believing it's easier to get animal rights activists to leave jews alone from needlessly harming animals than to get bnei Avraham Yitzchak and Yaakov rachmanim bnei rachmanim to take better care of the chickens without stopping the minhag of kapparos at all , or getting them to switch to money which is already very popular , is the prerequisite for the sin of ignoring our own faults because someone else has a different problem.
( p.s. we know packaging works. The haskala proved that )
40 years ago I used to shecht kapporos, but since then I have eschewed the custom for Halachic reasons, based on the psak of the Bais Yosef (later written in the Shulchan Aruch) despite the Rema, even those I am Ashkenazi. We are so makpid not to broil meat at the Pesach seder meal, lest it be misconstrued as a korban shechutei chutz. Kal V'chomer Kapporos, which when you think about can only be construed as a korbon (as you mentioned). Therefore I don't hold of kapporos, even with money. Look in Rambam, the Day of Yom Kippur, is the only Kapporah one needs... after taking the steps of Teshuvah. Giving Tsedaka stam also doesn't hurt (But I don't waive it over my head saying "this is instead of my life.")
However, Noson, you are incorrect in that you opine that chickens packed together in a crate is Tzar Baalei Chaim. As a matter of fact in the winter they pack more in the crate so the chickens should not die of cold. In the summer less in the crate so they should not die from heat. ALL chickens, not just kapporos are packed that way, so complain to Empire who process 100s of millions of chickens not just the few thousand for kapporos.
Chickens are never brought as a korban, hence it could not be misconstrued as one.
You are correct that all chickens are transported this way, this is industry standard. But the post is misguided for more fundamental reasons, as I noted above, so I didn't bother pointing that out.
Garvin, you are completely wrong and lack Torah understanding. Just because a chicken is not among the animals that are prescribed for korbanos, a person could sacrifice one misconstruing it to be a korbon, which would be a grievous sin for many reasons. Furthermore, as I noted, The Rema paskens that at the pesach seder meal it is prohibited to eat ANY broiled meat, even chicken, since it could be misconstrued as a korbon pesach that requires broiling. It is from this Lamdus that I deduced that the entire idea of kapporos may not be a good idea. It certainly is more comparable to a korbon than a broiled chicken dinner on pesach that no one is waiving over his head stating, "this should be in my place."
The point about chickens not being possible to be misconstrued as a sacrifice is mentioned explicitly in halacha.
GCH"T.
Cite me where it is mentioned explicitly in halacha that a chicken is not possible to misconstrue as a sacrifice. If you have been following this thread you can see where I cited the Shulchan
Aruch that is explicit that a chicken can be misconstrued for a korbon.
Furthermore, it doesn't say anywhere that for kapporos you have to use a chicken. You can use a pigeon just the same, and that is a species used for a korbon. Because you lack Torah scholarship, you tend to conflate matters.
The same Rama who says to do Kaparos...
וכן נוהגין ואין לשנות כי הוא מנהג ותיקין
The Rama is deferring to minhag. It's not the same as endorsing the reasoning behind the minhag
(Especially when discussing "best practice" rather than "Din" . The distinction between "ikar hadin " and "best practice " is something commonly misunderstood especially since the terminology used for both is often the same (אסור, חייב, מצוה) this issue is at least as old as the gemara ("מצוה לגבי רשות חובה קרי ליה")
Arguments between great rabbis as to the status of some din or another has led to massive disputes.
Worthy of an article from RNS?
It has been thought this distinction is behind the cavalier attitude to zman tefila among many hasidic masters)
I don't disagree with the idea you bring up, but in this specific case the Rama adds the words ואין לשנות. The Rama is very soft on how he stands behind any minhag and if he was just deferring to minhag he rights ואנו נוהגים or והמנהג אצלנו but adding ואין לשנות means he holds of it.
Additionally to sender Goldberg who "doesn't hold" of kapparos because it is like kodshim and doesn't make a distinction between animals used for the korban or not, the Shulchan aruch is clear that regarding pesach this depends on the minhag hamakom, not ikkur din. Ikkur din would only include whats used for a korban, so in this case the minhag is not to be concerned that it looks like kodshim.
If that is the case, since chickens do not lactate, u should not worry that chicken parmigiana would lead to zicher basar b'chalav.
I remember, as a youngster, back in late 40s or early 50s. We had chickens in a box in the kitchen. After 'shluggin', birds went to my great uncle (Shochet) for slaughter and dispersal to needy families.
It is well documented that most of the dead birds wind up in a garbage dumpster. There r no on-site facilities to process the birds for food, and it would be an economical loss to ship them back to facilities to even try to do so.
Do not kid yourselves, Shluggers! No 'ani will ever get to eat your chicken.
I knew an ani once that said she was given two dead chickens two hours before the zman. Warm, not gutted, soaked or salted. Not even de-feathered.
That sounds like an awful story, Frank! For the most part, aniim prefer cash donations over goods. If they live anywhere near a market, they can get whatever they need and want more quickly and efficiently. What good is a tsedaka item if it will not be fully utilized, and hopefully enjoyed?
If an ani is hoping to make a brisket for Yontif, I would rather contribute to the cost of that dinner 2 weeks in advance than a chicken her kids do not like! Tsedaka MUST take into account the recipient's dignity!
Oh, I'll add this. Gevirim seem to think that ani'im are so irresponsible that giving them money is counterproductive. That they ARE ani'im is proof that they're irresponsible.
Exactly.
I think blaming the aniim is not a widespread attitude among the frum. Most Haredim have extended families or co-congregates who experience poverty thru no fault of their own. Some aniim have large families where the head of household earns very little due to lack of employable skills.
and as to "no on-site facilities".... i was literally at one two days ago and can send you videos of the processing facility...so "well documented"...errm yep but I like the confidence either way.
well documented...where?
See from 8:30 onward, chicken carcasses in Williamsburg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PccGaPRJB5k
aha "well documented " means you have watched a youtube clip on it.
Doniel, that video was only 1 example. PETA has many more examples.
Almost every year, the local papers run pictures of Orthodox groups and some rabbis protesting the slaughter. The NY Post often has pictures of chicken carcasses for disposal. The poultry business is low-margin and very labor intensive. Transporting with refrigeration to a facility in Jersey to quickly process a shipment of a few days' worth of many 1000's of is not worth the costs. I do not think the mashgiach of a kosher facility would even accept chix already-shechted off-site.
then that would be a problem with the system rather than the minhag itself, in jerusalem everything is processed in one area and it is extremely efficient.
I dont really care whether you want to do kapporas or not it just strikes me as another feeble jibe at charedi practice/
No, my concern for the welfare of animals is my only motivation for pointing out the realistic truth of kapporas is not an excuse, feeble or otherwise, to shun the ritual.
Glad to hear about the efficiency of Jerusalem's K-program. But, that is usually not the case in US, and whether the chix make it to the 'aniim is a consideration whether to do K. U have to work with the system u have when choosing minhagim, especially those without universal support. Another time we can talk about Haredi minhagim and lifestyles that may have a negative impact on society's welfare.
Thanks for a nuanced approach
People on both sides tend to get quite partisan about it but your treatment is balanced
You omitted the other criticisms of the chicken usage such as those by ערוך השולחן
Quite clear from his words that mass scale practice of this Minhag can cause issues. Maybe it only ever was performed by individuals with their household chickens
And im guessing you are pro the minhag?
Though I have never personally used a chicken, I would certainly dig in my heels, when I hear of the "civilized" non-Jewish and Jewish liberals who are seeking to ban things not just kaporos, but things like shchita and bris mila. They've already managed to succeed with their agenda in most of Europe.
"It would seem that causing needless suffering to animals is a Biblical prohibition that far outweighs the value of a custom."
Your wrong! Even if the custom of swinging is "needless," if its then given to poor families WHICH MOST ARE there is nothing more VALUBLE this chicken can do!!
Thanks for the great post. I'm just curious where the Ramban and Rashba protest this custom?
How about some non rationalistic news!
https://open.substack.com/pub/doniel/p/alarming-news?r=2842py&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Keep it up. This balanced approach is the way to go. Maybe by making Kapparos standards for chickens be BETTER than industry standards, we will merit extra compassion from above.
" The Tur states that after slaughtering the chicken, there is a custom to throw its innards on the roof for birds to eat. Taz and Aruch haShulchan state that the reason for this is to show compassion for other creatures and thereby to earn Divine compassion. "
I didn't grow up with kapporot. To me, that "justification" -- to kill one bird unnecessarily, and then claim credit for "compassion" because you fed its guts to other birds -- comes pretty close to a chillul haShem.
But I'm vegetarian, and don't practice "authentic Judaism", so I may be biased.
. Charles
The bird isn't killed 'unnecessarily', it fulfills a purpose in its death.
We then, separately, give the gizzard to other birds.
To me, inventing justifications in order to shoot them down, denigrating Klal Yisroel and its minhagim in the process, is precisely a Chillul Hashem. It is close, from the other side.
@charles,
You’re not biased. You’re just not mesmerized with the scatterbrained notion that you can get God to change his mind by transference of sin to chicken. But on the other hand, if you can do it with a goat, why not a chicken.?
מה שנוהגים לעשות כפרה בעי״כ לשחוט תרנגול על כל בן זכר ולומר עליו פסוקים יש למנוע המנהג: הגה ויש מהגאונים שכתבו מנהג זה וכן כתבו אותו רבים מן האחרונים וכן נוהגין בכל מדינות אלו ואין לשנות כי הוא מנהג ותיקון ונוהגין ליקח תרנגול זכר לזכר ולנקבה לוקחין תרנגולת (ב״י בשם תשב״ץ) ולוקחין למעוברת ב׳ תרנגולים אולי תלד זכר ובוחרין בתרנגולים לבנים על דרך שנאמר אם יהיו חטאיכם כשנים כשלג ילבינו ונהגו ליתן הכפרות לעניים או לפדותן בממון שנותנים לעניים (מהרי״ל) ויש מקומות שנוהגין לילך על הקברות ולהרבות בצדקה והכל מנהג יפה ויש להסמיך שחיטת הכפרות מיד לאחר שהחזירו עליו וסומך ידיו עליו דמות הקרבן וזורקין בני מעיהם על הגגות או בחצר מקום שהעופות יכולין לקחת משם. (טור) :
This why the Rema is difficult for me. He explicitly says that one acts with Kapporos in a manner that compares it with a Korbon!!!
Furthermore, he states all kinds of rules, like taking a white chicken and a male for a male, female for a female, which are generally not followed anymore. He also does not mention substituting money for a chicken, which must be a new development that was never done until recent times.
Thus, even the minhag, (that I personally subscribe to the psak of the Mechaber (Bais Yosef) who rejects it) is generally no longer kept exactly as the Rema described.
Not sure what you are talking about, I've done Kapparos in Israel and in US and many different places and everyone still uses male for male and female for female. (Honestly this part makes no sense to me, even by korbanos we are not makpid on this.) So that means the minhag is still prevalent.
Also you are wrong about korbonos. Most korbonos are explicitly gender specific.
Korbanos are gender specific, but not to the gender bringing them, unless a gender specific korban like a yoledes.
When using young chickens of up to 8 weeks old (which are the main type Empire uses) it is hard to tell males from females and they don't taste differently. As they age the difference becomes very pronounced. Thus here the majority of chickens used for kapporos are young chickens.
Like I said, I have observed otherwise, but maybe other places I haven't been to are different.
You are correct. I would never pasken for someone else not to do kapporos, I merely informed what I do for myself and the reasoning. I understand the perspective of the Rema, it is just as YidPoshut explained, and although I am an Ashkenazi Jew, the reasoning on this issue is so strong in my opinion, that I have adopted the psak of the Bais Yosef and others.
I will tell you another psak that I have gravitated to the Bais Yosef from the Rema. The Rema paskens a woman must wait a minimum of 5 days from the onset of Niddah to start counting shiva nekiim. The Bais Yosef paskens 4 days. In a case where this difference affects the woman's timing to get pregnant, I pasken (even for others) to be noheg like the Bais Yosef and don't require her to skip a cycle as other poskim have, that won't deviate from the psak of the Rema.
I assume you are responding to me? (some times the thread gets messed up) I have no problem when people learn a sugya and feel towards one side כך היא דרכה של תורה. I just was a bit confused when you made it sound like even the Rama would agree to this, and I don't think it is the same, as I explained to yidpashut. (I was initially turned off when you said you "don't hold" of kapparos, like its the mechaber Rama and you, but I think you just mean you are מכריע this way.)
Leib, you sound like a yodeah sefer. Can you explain to me this line in the Rema?
וסומך ידיו עליו דמות הקרבן
We act out like it's a korban, so it should remind us of our sins. I agree with you on that.
But it is not a problem of looking like kodshim because we don't associate it like a korban, as opposed to pesach when its a lamb, and there are some places (today all) that stay away from all meat roasted. If there were places that considered chickens to look like a korban, it would be forbidden to do kapparos there too.
In hilchos Pesach O"Ch 476:
א מקום שנהגו לאכול צלי בלילי פסחים אוכלים מקום שנהגו (א) שלא לאכול אין אוכלין גזירה שמא יאמרו בשר פסח הוא ובכל מקום אסור לאכול (ב) שה צלוי (ג) כולו כאחד בלילה זה מפני שנראה כאוכל קדשים בחוץ ואם היה מחותך או שחסר ממנו אבר או שלק בו אבר והוא מחובר הרי זה מותר במקום שנהגו: ) :
ב אפילו בשר עגל ועוף כל דבר שטעון שחיטה אסור לאכול צלי במקום שנהגו שלא לאכול צלי:
The Rema does not argue and all Ashkenazi kehilos are makpid not to eat any tzli (unless brazed with liquid).
Exactly. My point is that it is only because we are a makpid on it there that it is a problem. By Kaparos מקומות נהגו להבחין so it is not a problem.
I understand you feel he would be לשיטתו in both cases, but I feel it is different, as I explain above.
Now you are not speaking "tzum zach." When I desire to eat roasted turkey on Pesach, it is purely to enhance the Yom Tov meal because my wife is a great cook. Thinking of it as the korbon pesach is the furthest thing from my mind, and I don't think you could find 1 in a 1000 who would confuse a pesach seder meal with a korbon pesach or any other korbon (chagiga). Yet that is the minhag. As I proved, the Rema himself compared kapporos to a korbon! It is a simple matter that an Am Ha'aretz may think of it like a korbon. Let me tell you a maaseh that happened to me about 40 years ago.
I was still noheg kapporos at the time. I was a shochet and I went with a friend to All City Poultry in Williamsburg to pick out chickens for kapporos. While there a man came over to me and asked me to shecht his chicken for kapporos. I asked where he lived and dovened. He was an Oriental Jew. He said he didn't go to shul, even on Yom Kippur and he didn't keep kosher. He kept absolutely nothing, except for kapporos, which he told me he was meticulous about doing every year before Yom Kippur.
I hear what you are saying but please explain why we can have a roasted zroa on the table and that's fine as long as we don't point at it, and yet we can't even say the words "this meat is for pesach". For some reason certain things are looked at to be associated more than others. I guess because a korbon pesach used to be eaten the night of pesach but a "korban Chicken was never brought erev yom kippur. Even if this doesn't make sense to diffrentuate, that doesn't mean the minhag doesn't carry over.
I never said the minhag doesn't carry over. It is a very widespread Minhag Yisroel, and even if there are big Kashos on it, those who practice it can certainly continue to do so. But I personally am uncomfortable with it because of the Kashos. My Kashos would not be enough for me to not participate with the Tzibbur in it. The reason I am "shev v'al taseh" with the minhag is because Gedolei Hador proclaimed the minhag is Darchei Emori and should be abandoned (Rashba, Ramban, Mechaber Shulachan Aruch) I have the zechus to rely on them. The fact is despite the psak of the Shulchan Aruch, most Sefardim are very into kapporos.
The Tur brings that the wealthy used to do kapporos with a ram, a species fit for a korbon. Others bring it was done with pigeons and that was no problem since they are slaughtered with shechita instead of melika. In the time of the Tur until the time of the Rema, it seems it was widespread to make kapporos like a korbon, even with semicha. the Tur justifies why a chicken was used, but says nothing about it being a species not fit for a korbon. Later, the great Acharonim started raising objections like not using an animal fit for a korbon, not doing semicha. Even during the time of the early Achronim, objections arose against hunting around for davka a white chicken considering that to be Darchei Emori. As I mentioned several times, we don't eat broiled meat Lel Seder, even chicken. And as mentioned, we don't say when buying meat for Lel Seder, "this meat is for Pesach" (even though a butchered piece of meat or chicken can't possibly be construed as a korbon). Many Gedolei Torah among the achronim had serious questions on the minhag of kapporos. My guess is many of them refrained altogether from the minhag, but kept more or less quiet about it.
I don't do kapporos, but I do put money in the kapporos pushke on erev Yom Kippur that will be given to Aniim.
Anyone slightly familiar with the Halachic process can tell you that the Halacha has been decided through years of precedent, all over the world. There is virtually no old community that eschewed this custom, from Sefardim to Ashkenazim.
The Halacha is as settled as Halacha gets. Calling this 'needless' is calling a Minhag Yisroel needless.
Now, obviously that does not allow the companies to mistreat the animals. But the Torah rules on mistreating animals are not the same as PETA's, or even the legal system. Leaving a chicken to fend for itself on the streets is not tza'ar ba'alei chaim, as one example.
I guess the true yardstick would be, when a Kapparos system does follow the rules, do these complainers swing a chicken round their heads? In London, I am told, all chickens are returned to the abbatoir where they are processed as regular chickens. Do people in Hendon then fulfill this custom? Or are they really repulsed by the primitive sight, and use tza'ar ba'alei chaim as an excuse?
This was never given the status of 'halochoh' so the 'halachik process' is not relevant here.
"In London, I am told". Don't believe everything you are told. Maybe a few chassidim in Hendon. Most don't, and yes, like the mechaber, find it primitive darchei ha'amori. The attraction to AZlike ritual lies deep in the human phsyce. How can teshuvoh be so diffuclt when you just pagen like wave a chicken round your head as an exchange. Chazal said teshivoh, tefillah, tzedokoh. Nothing about waving chickens.
It's similar to the shmittah esrogim that are supposedly shipped back to EY. Yeah, right. Pull the other one. And the signs that say 'nitchan l'acher pesach' straight after pesach. That is true, but come shevuos all the old sold stock is out again.
The Halacha permitted it and did not consider it darkei emori. This was the accepted Halacha all over the world. There is no bona-fide posek post- Shulchan Aruch that believed that this was forbidden. Someone who twaddles about in 2023 about darkei emori is showing that he/she knows very little about how Halacha is decided.
Again, tell us when Chazal mentioned 'teshuva tefilla and tzedaka'.
There is no such thing as 'the halochoh'. Go look at sefer minhag yisroel torah. It's entire purpose is to justify deviations from halochoh followed by the chassisim. And the mekor he brings, 99% of the time, is some Rebbe or other. Nothing better than that.
Halochoh is a wild west. Selling chometz the mass way it is done today is very dodgy. But you will never find any mass protest (I accept many don't use it, true) but the mass protests that we see against things like eruvin or hetter mechirah are not there. Ditto hetter iskah which is used in cases far beyond its original parameters. And yes, all can be justified l'halochoh. As I have said before, chareidim are very good at justifing whatever THEY want to do with all sorts of sevoros, but they are never prepared to extend the same courtesy to other groups. Go enjoy your kiddush shabbos morning on a thimblefull of schnapps. Yes, I know the apparent support from a taz. Yawn.
Next you will be telling me it is accepted halochoh not to cut a boys hair before age 3, the yeshivoh workd took that from the chassisim, who took it from the sefardim, who took it from knowbody knows ( a bunch of nomadic arabs who have the same custom)? But let's reverse engineer it into orloh somehow, so that's ok. And it's ancient minhag carried out by non-primitive people so it must be ok.
The discussion here, if you remember, is darkei emori on kapparos. Not your various ailments, or Minhag Yisroel Torah. I don't own a copy, so I have no clue what any of this has to do with me or kapparos.
It's broader than that. You made a sweeping statement, "The Halacha permitted it". It's that concept I am challenging. There is not such thing as 'the halochoh'.
The decided Halacha, the settled Halacha, the decision process that tells us that we don't have any reason to use פסולת גורן ויקב on the Sukkah, or to fast two days of Yom Kippur.
I called that 'the Halacha', and that triggered a rant on your behalf.
Agreed, chazal also never said slichos, tefilas Zaka, tashlich, or a thousand other minhagim we have. So the Rama writes מנהג ותיקין ואין לשנות but this שיטה לא נודע למי knows better and claim most agree with him too. Now its fine to say I am more comfortable with the other shita like Rabbi Goldberg, but the above comment...seriously. (The reason I am replying to you and not שיטה לא נודע למי is he likes dropping his idea and then retreating so he won't be here to read it.)
Dunno. Are we obligated to uphold minhagim started by primitive but well meaning people?
Thinking people don't. Those that research minhogim and generally come to a blank, don't.
Others just say 'it's the mesorah' and follow like chickens.
You call them primitive, yet you have no idea if that is actually true. They may have been quite sophisticated.
We don know that wise sophisticated people did keep this minhag, and there is no reason to believe that we are any wiser or smarter than them.
Do you think you are wiser or smarter than the mechaber? Did the mechaber not think of your point?
Actually we are far more learned now than the typical Eastern European Jew a few hundred years ago surrounded by Cathocism and all that goes with it.
Because we are surrounded by the wisdom of the Internet, truly wise people.
Speak for yourself. Other point to the hundreds of thousands 'in learning'.