"People would do well to remember the words of the Sages: “Who is wise? He that foresees the consequences.”
(Note - in a previous post, I asked people not to troll the comments section, i.e. not to swamp it with inflammatory comments. The result was a greater amount of trolling than ever. So in future I am going to start deleting comments and/or banning people.)"
The extreme irony of those two statements appearing one after another!
Inflamatory and trolling posts draw inflamatory and trolling comments. Free commenting was a redeeming feature of thos blog. Now after a failed attempt to make the blog paid a new censorship feature is contemplated.
Had the same thought. NS can censor the many (probably majority) who don't agree with him. He can have a pristine forum with a) no comments at all, b) an echo-chamber of sycophants, or c) a tepid, token house "charedi" disputant or two. And then he can become just another blogger spitting into the wind and talking to himself.
(Swear words though, as noted before, are objectively inappropriate, to all points of view, and should be deleted.)
Wow, what an amazing show of the secularist "ethics", "integrity", "honesty", and "law-abiding citizens" you always talk about. Smuggling chametz into hospitals, in violation of of hospital regulations and the law. Publicly distributing chametz in violation of the law. And then you coming out and saying, "See! When you pass laws some people don't like, they will break them, dishonestly or openly!" Ethics and integrity indeed.
That’s what you get in a parliamentary system that requires a coalition in which small extremist parties can extort extreme laws or threaten to leave the coalition. If the religionists had to win the majority on their own, they never would. And Bibi has no choice but to go along with it or risk not being able to sabotage the court’s convicting him for his crimes. With a government like that you are no better than Iran’s ayatollahs with their morality police.
What's wrong with morality police? It's a necessity in a religious state. The Rambam mentions morality police. In any case, I was talking about ethics and law-abiding citizens, not morality police.
I am sure you would like to be able to beat and stone everyone who isn't just like you. But if simple ethics and not doing to your neighbor what is hateful to you is not enough, think.selfishly for a moment. Eventually the decent majority will.get tired of the Jewish Taliban. Then there will be no more gravy train, no more special privileges, no more of the begging and grift which define the Charedi lifestyle.
Lol, you guys flout those ethics in a heartbeat when it suits you. The observant Jews including chareidim and a good portion of the RW DL will become the decent majority in a few decades as the secularists diminish, one funeral at a time. We will worry about it then.
A religious state by definition is a theocracy. Israel was created as a democracy where Jews had the freedom to be practice Judaism or not based on freedom of conscience. It was not founded as a theocracy so if you don’t want to be true to the ideals of the state of Israel and want to live in a theocracy, then why don’t you leave and move to one, like Iran?
Why is it relevant what the secular/atheists founders wanted 70 years ago? They are all dead. The new generation is more religious and will want a theocracy.
Do the LGBT worry about likely repercussions before ramming their agenda through? No. Do you blame them? No. Do you even care? No. So stop whining about religious people in a holy land wanting their society to reflect that.
I wasn’t referring to his initial comment, but rather to the resulting thread of Moses and his interlocutors calling each other “gay” like ill-adjusted schoolchildren.
Not meant to be funny. You do seem to be obsessed and generally people who are obsessed about gays feel threatened and generally closeted gay people feel threatened by seeing gays.
It's stupid because 2 wrongs don't have a right. And we are commanded to not do a column
How is it a Chillul Hashem to announce Hashem's opinion out loud? The world may not believe in the same things that we do, but did Avraham Avinu make a Chilul Hashem by announcing Hashem's Name to the world?
FWIW, I am not a big fan of fighting gay parades, because there is zero chance of winning, and every chance of causing more problems. But Chillul Hashem is not the issue at all.
Yes I do. And I hate that they shove it in our faces. I personally would love them to be sensitive to others and definitely not to parade in Jerusalem. It's not the point.
Their "agenda" of having the same rights as the theiving parasites who want to kill them? More power to them. They don't force you to do anything. Their rights and freedom neither pick your pocket nor break your head. Just like the Nazis the Israeli Right is coming to resemble anything short holding the whip and the keys to the ovens is seen as being oppressed
The Torah calls homosexuality תועבה, repulsive, because it wants us to feel that way. The Torah then follows with a warning that if we don't treat it as such, the Land will repel us. This is not something we can play around with as a Jewish state.
So is cheating other called repulsive in the Torah…so is eating shellfish. How many ultra orthodox protest against shellfish eating or even better are scrupulous in their business dealings….Lol
Moses is 100% right. It's not just the homosexual lobby, its the left wing in general. Anyone who was present for the gigantic demonstrations in the 90s (dwarfing by far any of the judicial adjustment protests) screaming against Oslo because of what we all knew what would, and did, happen, and heard Rabin's arrogant dismissal of them - we will NEVER forget that. That's what democracy means to these people. Just like free speech. A useful concept when convenient, a laughable notion when not.
You probably admire Yigal Amir for what he did to the greatest leader Israel ever had. We know what democracy means to y’all. Live on welfare, not have to serve your country, and hate other people like Arabs and secular Jews. Y’all a bunch of dinosaurs headed for extinction and you don’t even know it. So heady about having real power for the first time that you overreach. The public wants their country back
I agree with your general point that legislation for religion normally has a negative backlash. Today the most widely marked traditions in Israel (Brit Mila, Mezuza, not driving on Yom Kippur, Kiddush on Friday night) are not legislated, and I am sure that if the government required one of these actions by law, the backlash would lead to more people publicly flouting these mitzvot.
However I think that there as actually a broader question - it seems to be that the Religious community in Israel is becoming more insular, and the secular population is drifting further away from tradition, which is a trend we are seeing all over the world. And this is not just in areas where there is perceived "religious coercion".
One of the non-religious people I work with told me that the kindergartens in her neighborhood no longer have an "Abba and Ima Shel Shabbat", rather they have a end-of-week celebration which has no kiddush, challot, or Shabbat songs (and of course no gendered roles like Abba and Ima). A generation ago it was standard to have Kabbalat Shabbat in Ganim, no matter how secular.
Similarly, there has been a decline in other traditions such as Reading from a Torah for a Bar Mitzva, Fasting on Yom Kippur, or eating Matza during Pessach, and there seems to be much less awareness of basic Jewish traditions.
Part of this may be a response to Charedi demands, but I think another contributing factor is that Religious and Secular are interacting less than they did a generation ago. When I moved here 30 years ago, there were many neighborhoods with Haredi, DL, and Chilonim living together (Think of Bayit VeGan, or even Bnei Brak), and it was common for religious and Haredi families to live in even the most secular neighborhoods.
Today the vast majority of Haredim live in areas that are 100% Haredi, and they would not consider living anywhere else, and there are more towns or neighborhoods that are 100% Dati-Leumi, or 100% Secular.
The result is that more and more people are growing up in neighborhoods where there is no communal sense of Jewish tradition.
A non-religious friend at my place of work said that the kindergarten teacher in his son's gan told them about kiddush on Friday night. (Maybe they even acted it out, I don't remember.)
My friend went to the principal and protested, that he didn't want religion being impressed on his child!
His other colleagues at work said to him, "It's Jewish culture! You're such a radical!"
Despite the fact that the establishment secular Zionists intended to eliminate the Torah as the basis of Judaism, they still wanted to keep some kind of traditional Jewish character of the State. They understood, you can be an atheist and disregard feeling bound to Torah Law and still keep a Jewish character if you eat gefilta fish, use noise makers on Purim, light candles on Hannukah, make Shabbos the official day of rest and closure of businesses instead of Sunday, require kashrus in all public institutions, etc. They really did not want the state to devolve into a model of Paris or San Fransisco. They called their origin routine, "status quo." Unfortunately (for their aspirations) if you teach your children, "we like the ceremonial trappings, but we don't believe they have a divine source with an ultimate objective," those children and their children are going to conclude that the whole thing is stupid, burdensome and unnecessary, and gravitate to the Paris/San Fransisco model that frees them to fulfill their taavos. The ISC also strongly supported divestiture of the old traditional trappings as a matter of public policy.
Thus Noson, instead of capitulating to the notion that if you impose on people, it will solidify their defiance, perhaps it is better to work on showing the antagonists that the Torah has their best interest in mind by keeping Israel's Jewish character intact. I think that most of the Gedolim, Charedi and Dati public recognize what I am saying. Unfortunately there are a few whose fanaticism is counter-productive.
The anti-Bibi line shows how morally bankrupt the left is. There is zero reason why he should fold to the left mob. The left is the one who is ready to set the country on fire in order to stay in power. The left played BDS in order to pressure the elected government to stop the reforma. The left decided to go AWOL and use the army for they political aims. The army that is supposed to be above politics!!!
Zero Hakarat Hatov for the great stuff he has done for the country. Cancelling the 30 seats he keeps getting every election. And then you blame Bibi for not having a government? He definitely has his faults, but demanding him to step aside is absurd.
Regarding shabbot electricity, the way to get it kosher for shabbot is automation. Something that is possible these days, and even cheaper since it needs less manpower. But for some reason is being with held. There was a period that מכון מדעי טכנולוגי להלכה was in charge and they even automated the coal powerplant in Ashkelon to move the coals automatically around. But somehow the automation project stopped. Its fakenews to claim that electricity without chillul shabbot will cost more. There will definitely be costs, but it will also take costs down.
There is a lot of criticism you throw around, but there is zero nuance and its extremely one-sided. Therefore I see this blog as a propaganda spitfire for the shallow worldview you have build for yourself over the years.
Calling the 3 parties that joined the government as Chareidi and lumping them together just shows how you overlook the complexity of things.
I find it ironic and hypocritical how on the one hand, the ultra orthodox have nothing but disdain for secular Jews but yet will willingly take advantage of secular scientific inventions that the ultra orthodox wouldn’t have access to if not for the creativeness of secular Jews. I also find it ironic and hypocritical that they use those inventions to circumvent halachic restrictions that our religious ancestors weren’t able to yet at the same time tell secular Jews that they have to adhere to ways of living that harken back to the Middle Ages. If not for secular Jews (and others) with secular educations, y’all wouldn’t be enjoying whatever modern conveniences that y’all partake in. Can you name even one ultra Orthodox Jew that has won the Nobel Prize of all the 212 Jews who have won it since its inception? Y’all don’t work, don’t serve, and make pretend you are doing something by doing useless things like making pretend Betty Boop was cured of cancer because we all said Tehillim for her when in reality it was medical science which saved the day.
And it’s hypocritical how the Torah inveighs against stealing, corruption, and lying yet it’s the religious who seem to gravitate to the most corrupt and power hungry leaders like Nutty Yahu and Drumpf.
Several Orthodox Jews have indeed won Nobels…Nachman Shai, and I forget the name of the Mathematician from Israel who won several years ago for his contributions to Game Theory.
No mention of a Nobel here. This guy was a journalist though so I don’t think he was making any contributions to science.
I’m seeing that there were many five who were practicing Jews, but two of them didn’t wear kippot or strictly adhere to kashrut, one converted after his prize to get married, and two we’re definitely orthodox, but one of them won his prize in Economics, Robert Aumann, if you consider that science. The other, Rosalyn Yallow in medicine. That’s out of 218. Statistically insignificant.
First of all there should be a מחאה against the way you are מבזה the holy תהילים.
Regarding your argument, yes it makes a lot of sense. A group of people enjoying the benefits of what they are preaching against. Nevertheless, aside that you speak in generalities and have zero sense for nuance. You also have a worldview that hasn't even scratched the surface of what Torah really means.
Every motse shabbos you make the blessing of בורא מאורי האש. Meaning of the words is that Hashem created the light of the fire. Wait a second, doesn't the midrash say that Adam hit 2 stones and thereby invented fire ? So why do we bless on Hashem creating fire?
The answer is that Hashem creates and human only 'discovers' what already was created. And just like we believe that HAshem a] created and b] also משגיח. Same with all the discoveries of human mankind. a] Hashem created and b] Hashem is משגיח for the right time that every specific so-to-say invention gets discovered.
If you believe that Torah is in competition with science, it is pure blasphemy. It means you compare them, while there not even in the same league. And if you see winning nobel prizes as the most noblest and cherished thing a person can attain, you haven't understood a thing about life.
Seeing your ranting, I start to understand the chareidi world that wants to protect what's so dear to them, by building walls and ignoring science. The גאווה and condensation is dripping out of your enlightened posts. Take a step back and remember that science only describes this world while Torah teaches us how to live life that is beyond this physical world.
So, thank you for taking the time to instruct me on on the Charedi worldview.
I understand your interpretation that what I said was demeaning to the Tehillim but I was not, in fact, disrespecting them at all. In fact, I admire and respect the psalms for the beautiful poetry and literature that it is. What I was saying was that the Charedi belief that reciting or reading them can cure someone of desease is a ridiculous belief. In fact, every experiment done to date that measured the efficacy of prayer for a better outcome for patients that were prayed for vs those who weren’t, shows no discernible difference. There are good studies that collate past research on the topic that you could look up if you wished to. I could help you if you wanted.
What does Torah really mean? Does it mean what the people (YES PEOPLE) who wrote it meant it to mean, or does it mean what the ancient and medieval interpreters thought it meant? The Chazal lived hundreds of years after the sources of the Pentateuch (5 Books of Moses) was written and then redacted. Those interpreters made assumptions about the text when they interpreted it, such as, 1. The Torah was written by God, 2. The texts are consistent, 3. The texts are cryptic and symbolic, and 4. The texts are prophetic and homiletic. All contradictions, anachronisms, misspellings, and mistakes about the natural world had to be smoothed over to accommodate these assumptions. But the people who wrote these stories, like the Adam and Eve stories, may not have even believed them themselves as there is ample evidence that many of these early stories such as the creation, the garden, and the flood, were taken from Babylonian sources and then demythologized to make them accord with the monotheism of the Jewish writers.
But truly I’m not trying to use condescension (or even “condensation 🌧️) towards the heritage of my people because based on the knowledge of the world during the Greek/Roman world and the Middle Ages, they did the best that they could. Their efforts encouraged education which led to Jewish people having high degrees of literacy in those times. But we live in the modern world and there is no need to believe in superstition and dogma anymore. Don’t misconstrue what I said to mean that I don’t believe in morals and justice, because I do.
And what kind of logic are you telling me? What kind of God do you worship who allows thousands of years of human generations (100’s of 1000’s in actuality since Homo Sapiens evolved) to suffer horrible diseases caused by bacteria killing innocent people including babies, and waits until 1928 to let Alexander Fleming discover penicillin?
And I never said winning a Nobel is the “most noblest and cherished thing a person can attain.” Where did I write that? Is that an example of the famous Talmudic style of argumentation? To put words in your debate partner’s mouth? I don’t think so. What I said was that if that person was to make that discovery which would overturn the science on that topic, he could win a Nobel and rightfully so because he would then prove his theory.
The Charedi world may want to insulate itself from the world but it is doing a disservice to its youth in my opinion by not preparing them to be productive members of society. How do you call yourself a man when you need welfare to care for your family when you are perfectly able to work??
By believing and stating that the Torah is written by people, you're a כופר even according to the rationalist criteria from this blog. My מחאה was right all along. You think/pretend you are criticizing the chareidi world, but essentially you spitting on both תורה שבכתב and תורה שבעל פה. And thereby disrespecting what you call "my people". The same people who are a living testimony that there is something that defies time and space. A living testimony that there is more then modernity. Something you have turned into a golden calf.
Wondering how the seder looks like at your home. Some folklore of cherry picked morals and justice?
I’m disrespecting my people? Well considering that the vast majority of Jewish people are either some version of Reform or don’t belong to any organized Jewish institution except maybe a JCC (Thank you Mordechai Kaplan), I’d say my understanding of reality conforms pretty close to the norm so I’m not disrespecting the vast majority of Jews. I may be a kofer according to you, but I’m in good company. I think I’m right and you think you’re right but people of differing opinions can disagree civilly without calling someone a heretic, but I guess that’s a normal reaction from a fundamentalist. I wasn’t even intending to disrespect you anyway. I was just informing you how the non-Orthodox and secular world understands the Torah based on modern academic research. Many of those academics consider themselves orthodox and are fully observant. I can’t help if you’re easily offended by facts.
Finally, I’m truly touched that you’re worried about my Seder but I can assure you that my gathering will be filled with family, and friends, and love. Thank you! Gut Yontif!
The reason that the Israel Electric Company does not use automation on Shabbat (for which they had the technology over 30 yrs ago) is simple - the electric company workers union is infamous for being the most powerful - and unscrupulous - one in the country. Electric company employees enjoy exorbitant benefits. such as completely free electricity, which is fully exploited to the extent that their consumption is exponentially more than average. And as they get double wages for working on Shabbat - why would they give this up?
Is it my imagination, or is this Blog becoming more and more like the Haggadah?
Latest similarity - any mention of Moses has been expunged by the editor.
On a more serious note, for those suggesting that the Haggadah does mention Moshe, as in the words ויאמינו בה' ובמשה עבדו. Take a look at the אבן עזרא on this פסוק. Rav SF Zimmerman explains that the פסוק is not lauding Moshe, but rather the people had faith that Moshe was Hashem's servant.
The post makes no sense, because it's predicated on assigning relative importance to different people's politics. *Of course* NS thinks chametz laws are coercive or not worth passing, because its not his issue. To him its not important, so he thinks any law passed about it is ridiculous and unfair. He can't understand that millions of people feel the same about environmental laws, labor laws, safety laws?
That’s a false analogy. Environmental, labor, and safety laws benefit everyone by keeping our water clean, helping workers, and keeping people safe. Forced religious ritual observance is theocratic tyranny. Like Antiochus stopping Jews from keeping kosher.
A moral code is a national interest. Your argument is just in the specifics of how these morals are defined. Fortunately, democracies have a way of answering such questions: Elections.
True democracies have a way of purging the fascists just like we did to Trump. May the fascists of Israel have the same fate. I think from the dumpster fire Israel has become since December, y’all are in for a rude awakening. This coalition will eat it itself. The Israeli public seems to have had enough of Nutty Yahu
So why is it a waste of time to respond to me? Just because we stopped being religious, we secular Jews are still the same as you. I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same foods, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer (as you are)… If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
He didn't mention tickling, cooling or warming. His point was that he would not discuss the issue with someone who doesn't accept the premise that the Torah is true.
It is not worth anyone's time discussing these issues with atheists, כ"ש דפקר טפי.
“…In part, this is a longstanding resentment of a population that does not carry its share of military service or economic productivity and demands financial support from the rest of the country. …These include turning various mixed beaches into separate beaches, having the rest of the country pay for Shabbos electricity stringencies, preventing public transportation on Shabbos, having the rest of the country subsidize transportation for charedim, fining or imprisoning women who dress immodestly or read from the Torah at the Kotel, etc.
Another such charedi imposition on non-charedim is the Chametz Law, which was just passed. …”
This is the early consequences of the slippery slope progression to theocracy. And this is even before there is any chareidi populace majority. There is little doubt that given the demographic advancement of chareidim, that EY will be ruled by a theocratic majority with the elimination of the democratic rights that chilonim cherish. Just look at Iran if you think it can’t happen in EY. In due time, Israel’s military and economic prowess will diminish. No democratic, civil rights loving Israeli, the ones that militarily protect and economically secure Israel will want to remain in a state where you may be jailed for bringing chametz into a hospital. That why we see the present massive protests. No person in his right mind will want to live in a theocratic state as long as folks like HappyGo relish the thought of a Chareidi Theocratic state casting a homosexual of a 5 story building for their version of “Corruption on Earth”.
When military disaster strikes because Israel’s defences are laid low because most able-bodied men are pressing their behinds in life-long kollels, chareidim will blame it on rejection of Hashem. Like the cause of the churban bayit rishon, shaynee and the Shoah.
That’s what the chilonim and a few orthodox Yidden are demonstrating about.
It's interesting that "the Gedolim" haven't made any statements/offered guidance during this current upheaval. You would think now would be a good time for leadership.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Don't judge something by the noise it makes.
The Gedolim deserve extra respect for their silence now. It shows their clarity of vision, and how they understand past the news cycles with their mendacity, biases and skewed prisms.
Because the country was never established as a religious county, quite the contrary. As a secular democratic state, we cannot impose religious laws on the general population. It causes resentment and as Nathan stated, and I agree with him, it only has the opposite effect. So now you'll say, but they are not sensitive either... LGBTQIA+ ... So to that I'll reply, I'm against that too (two wrongs don't make a right) but based on your viewpoint, good for them (you are happy to do the same from the opposite direction). Furthermore, I accept the fact that it's a secular state and that we are only in Israel due to the secular founding fathers (they are not interested in the merits of Torah learning)
Jews returning to Israel and living there according to the Torah is how this is done. You can't detach this from Israel's history. Anyone detaching it prays וְתֶחֱזֶינָה עֵינֵינוּ בְּשׁוּבְךָ לְצִיּוֹן בְּרַחֲמִים with his eyes closed.
Nevertheless there is a lot of learning (especially Tanach Be'Iyun) to see Hashems hand in all of these processes. Like why was the state created by mainly non-religious Jews? What is the reforma really about? Why did we have to go through 2000 years of Galut?
The Sefer Eim Habanim Semeicha is a good starting point to get into these sugyas. Rav Kook is for the more advanced student.
When you say chareidim, you make it seem as if all chareidim are complicit in this insanity. To be fair, it is only the hotheaded radicals (who unfortunately speak for the majority of chareidim).
If you accuse a whole community, it would probably be more fair and productive to single out the radicals by name - who are directly responsible for this.
Every law that is supported by only some segments of society is forcing a change to the way others live. You don't seem to have a problem with laws in general, only laws that strengthen the Jewish character of Eretz Yisrael...
Also, there is a big difference between doing something that might backfire (bad strategy to achieve your goal) and being an insane hotheaded radical. You don't seem very level headed yourself.
I would argue that a hospital is not a typical public facility. People are there because they are sick, or are visiting people who are sick; those who are sick are not just making a quick trip there; and they're generally not able to choose the timing of their stay.
It's not like it's the driver's license bureau or land-registry office or something. In this case, the impact is on people who are already in some distress, and thus the potential for causing resentment is also far higher.
1. Blaming the Charedim for something that almost all Orthodox Jews in EY wanted is just wrong. Yes, the Charedim also wanted it, but it was not their idea and they weren't they ones that toppled the government over this.
2. They aren't trying to force their 'way of life'. Torah and Mitzvos aren't someone's 'way of life'. As long as ostensibly Mitzvah-observant treat their Mitzvos as a mere 'way of life' and not a covenant between them, and all Jews, and Hashem, they will never understand why thingsa re the way they are.
3. Your list of so-called coercions are either untrue or misrepresented. Right now, the Charedim are subsidizing the non-Charedi bus routes. The Charedi bus routes are filled to capacity, whereas in the non-Charedi areas they are emptier. That is one example.
Frum people have to keep their heads down in other countries. The commenters here who are ashamed of halacha and what a Torah life really means should live in one of those other countries. Eretz Yisrael is supposed to be different.
If you don't believe in mitzvos and kedusha, why would you or should you live in Israel? You don't make any sense. But you're not trying to make sense, you're just trolling with propaganda and straw men.
1. Mention /= blame. The title and the bulk of the article is about Charedim, not D"L.
2. Doing fine is a weak yardstick. We have a chiyuv arvus, we can't say 'it's not our business'. The only question is, "what is the best way to go about this?" If in other countries we ignore our chiyuv arvus, we are not doing fine. And if there is no choice in other countries, that disproves your point.
I totally agree with you that without Bibi there could have been a centre coalition and I wish that would happen. But do really think that Bibi is the cause and not just the focal point of a deeper divide in Israeli society which even if Bibi wasn't there it would hang it's hat on another point of contention?
Yes, I really do think that. The vast majority of the country has more or less the same approach on the two big issues - Palestinians and religion. That's why Bibi had to come up with the crazy "Leftist" charge in order to win the election.
This is simply false, and how are you not embarrassed to say such things? On the issue of Palestinians, yes, there is a national consensus - the proof is that the left hasn't won an election in more than a generation. But on the issue of religion, the "vast majority" of the country agrees on nothing.
Natan keeps removing this comment a few seconds after I posted it. What a joke he is.
For the record, Natan Slifkin threatened to ban me for what he called trolling and writing multiple comments. Adam Edelstein has been flooding the comments section with trolling, vulgarity, demonic hatred, and even calls for harm, all directed at Orthodox Jews. Natan Slifkin saw this and said nothing, which means he gives it his tacit approval. This is illuminating.
Sorry, but the idea that this is somehow a "provocation" is a bit of a reach. Without any "provocations," the anti-religious continues to take a dump on the religious. Without any provocation, the slippery slope continues to get slipperier.
Calling these things "provocations" is similar to victim-blaming.
The worst part is that the discussion is deeply non-halakhic. We aren't talking about serving chametz to hospital patients. Nor are we talking about it being served in the hospital cafeteria. We are talking about preventing an Israeli Arab doctor from bringing in a sandwich for lunch, an action that is מותר לכתחילה לדעת כל הפוסקים.
"People would do well to remember the words of the Sages: “Who is wise? He that foresees the consequences.”
(Note - in a previous post, I asked people not to troll the comments section, i.e. not to swamp it with inflammatory comments. The result was a greater amount of trolling than ever. So in future I am going to start deleting comments and/or banning people.)"
The extreme irony of those two statements appearing one after another!
Inflamatory and trolling posts draw inflamatory and trolling comments. Free commenting was a redeeming feature of thos blog. Now after a failed attempt to make the blog paid a new censorship feature is contemplated.
Forseeing the consequences, indeed.
Haha!
Had the same thought. NS can censor the many (probably majority) who don't agree with him. He can have a pristine forum with a) no comments at all, b) an echo-chamber of sycophants, or c) a tepid, token house "charedi" disputant or two. And then he can become just another blogger spitting into the wind and talking to himself.
(Swear words though, as noted before, are objectively inappropriate, to all points of view, and should be deleted.)
Why do you assert that “swear words” are “objectively inappropriate”?
Wow, what an amazing show of the secularist "ethics", "integrity", "honesty", and "law-abiding citizens" you always talk about. Smuggling chametz into hospitals, in violation of of hospital regulations and the law. Publicly distributing chametz in violation of the law. And then you coming out and saying, "See! When you pass laws some people don't like, they will break them, dishonestly or openly!" Ethics and integrity indeed.
That’s what you get in a parliamentary system that requires a coalition in which small extremist parties can extort extreme laws or threaten to leave the coalition. If the religionists had to win the majority on their own, they never would. And Bibi has no choice but to go along with it or risk not being able to sabotage the court’s convicting him for his crimes. With a government like that you are no better than Iran’s ayatollahs with their morality police.
What's wrong with morality police? It's a necessity in a religious state. The Rambam mentions morality police. In any case, I was talking about ethics and law-abiding citizens, not morality police.
I am sure you would like to be able to beat and stone everyone who isn't just like you. But if simple ethics and not doing to your neighbor what is hateful to you is not enough, think.selfishly for a moment. Eventually the decent majority will.get tired of the Jewish Taliban. Then there will be no more gravy train, no more special privileges, no more of the begging and grift which define the Charedi lifestyle.
Lol, you guys flout those ethics in a heartbeat when it suits you. The observant Jews including chareidim and a good portion of the RW DL will become the decent majority in a few decades as the secularists diminish, one funeral at a time. We will worry about it then.
A religious state by definition is a theocracy. Israel was created as a democracy where Jews had the freedom to be practice Judaism or not based on freedom of conscience. It was not founded as a theocracy so if you don’t want to be true to the ideals of the state of Israel and want to live in a theocracy, then why don’t you leave and move to one, like Iran?
Why is it relevant what the secular/atheists founders wanted 70 years ago? They are all dead. The new generation is more religious and will want a theocracy.
Then you are talking about a revolution
You'd support one against religious people. You HATE religous people with all your being.
Evolution, not revolution.
Adam Edelstein wouldn't mind immorality police to punish religious people. He's clearly not someone worth trying to have a reasonable discussion with.
Does your religious training imbue you with the ability to read minds now?
Yes, I read yours and saw an empty black hole.
Talk about ad hominem attacks. Guess you’re out of any semi-logical arguments
Do the LGBT worry about likely repercussions before ramming their agenda through? No. Do you blame them? No. Do you even care? No. So stop whining about religious people in a holy land wanting their society to reflect that.
Boy, if any thread of comments deserved to be deleted, it’s this one…
I was all for banning Moses, but what's wrong with that comment? It's one of the most reasonable ones that he dropped.
I wasn’t referring to his initial comment, but rather to the resulting thread of Moses and his interlocutors calling each other “gay” like ill-adjusted schoolchildren.
What a stupid comment and you seem to be obsessed with gays. Makes me wonder...
What's stupid about it? It's the other side of the coin.
Yeah, maybe I'm secretly gay, you got me. Speaking of stupid.
I was thinking the same thing.
Moses,
Is there something you want to tell us?
Your brilliant comments and funny insults turn me on.
Moses, we all know that you are Cookie/Balko. Have you taken your vaccines yet?
All 15! How many did you take?
Yeah, I have a crush on you big boy.
Moses is only half joking
Not meant to be funny. You do seem to be obsessed and generally people who are obsessed about gays feel threatened and generally closeted gay people feel threatened by seeing gays.
It's stupid because 2 wrongs don't have a right. And we are commanded to not do a column
Chilul hashem. Coercing of exactly that.
How is it a Chillul Hashem to announce Hashem's opinion out loud? The world may not believe in the same things that we do, but did Avraham Avinu make a Chilul Hashem by announcing Hashem's Name to the world?
FWIW, I am not a big fan of fighting gay parades, because there is zero chance of winning, and every chance of causing more problems. But Chillul Hashem is not the issue at all.
How do you know there is zero chance of winning?
Avraham Avinu had less of a chance of winning, but you brought him up as support.
Thanks for the psychoanalysis. Want to go out?
Would you consider LGBT's obsessed in an unhealthy way? Or only people who don't want them marching through Jerusalem?
Yes I do. And I hate that they shove it in our faces. I personally would love them to be sensitive to others and definitely not to parade in Jerusalem. It's not the point.
Their "agenda" of having the same rights as the theiving parasites who want to kill them? More power to them. They don't force you to do anything. Their rights and freedom neither pick your pocket nor break your head. Just like the Nazis the Israeli Right is coming to resemble anything short holding the whip and the keys to the ovens is seen as being oppressed
No one is thinking of killing them.
The Torah calls homosexuality תועבה, repulsive, because it wants us to feel that way. The Torah then follows with a warning that if we don't treat it as such, the Land will repel us. This is not something we can play around with as a Jewish state.
So is cheating other called repulsive in the Torah…so is eating shellfish. How many ultra orthodox protest against shellfish eating or even better are scrupulous in their business dealings….Lol
Awesome, let’s compare people wanting equal rights to religious extremists pushing their lifestyle on everyone else by making them live like you do👌
Moses is 100% right. It's not just the homosexual lobby, its the left wing in general. Anyone who was present for the gigantic demonstrations in the 90s (dwarfing by far any of the judicial adjustment protests) screaming against Oslo because of what we all knew what would, and did, happen, and heard Rabin's arrogant dismissal of them - we will NEVER forget that. That's what democracy means to these people. Just like free speech. A useful concept when convenient, a laughable notion when not.
You probably admire Yigal Amir for what he did to the greatest leader Israel ever had. We know what democracy means to y’all. Live on welfare, not have to serve your country, and hate other people like Arabs and secular Jews. Y’all a bunch of dinosaurs headed for extinction and you don’t even know it. So heady about having real power for the first time that you overreach. The public wants their country back
Reading minds again? ;)
No, that’s why I used the word, “probably.” You aren’t the sharpest tack in the box, eh?
I agree with your general point that legislation for religion normally has a negative backlash. Today the most widely marked traditions in Israel (Brit Mila, Mezuza, not driving on Yom Kippur, Kiddush on Friday night) are not legislated, and I am sure that if the government required one of these actions by law, the backlash would lead to more people publicly flouting these mitzvot.
However I think that there as actually a broader question - it seems to be that the Religious community in Israel is becoming more insular, and the secular population is drifting further away from tradition, which is a trend we are seeing all over the world. And this is not just in areas where there is perceived "religious coercion".
One of the non-religious people I work with told me that the kindergartens in her neighborhood no longer have an "Abba and Ima Shel Shabbat", rather they have a end-of-week celebration which has no kiddush, challot, or Shabbat songs (and of course no gendered roles like Abba and Ima). A generation ago it was standard to have Kabbalat Shabbat in Ganim, no matter how secular.
Similarly, there has been a decline in other traditions such as Reading from a Torah for a Bar Mitzva, Fasting on Yom Kippur, or eating Matza during Pessach, and there seems to be much less awareness of basic Jewish traditions.
Part of this may be a response to Charedi demands, but I think another contributing factor is that Religious and Secular are interacting less than they did a generation ago. When I moved here 30 years ago, there were many neighborhoods with Haredi, DL, and Chilonim living together (Think of Bayit VeGan, or even Bnei Brak), and it was common for religious and Haredi families to live in even the most secular neighborhoods.
Today the vast majority of Haredim live in areas that are 100% Haredi, and they would not consider living anywhere else, and there are more towns or neighborhoods that are 100% Dati-Leumi, or 100% Secular.
The result is that more and more people are growing up in neighborhoods where there is no communal sense of Jewish tradition.
A non-religious friend at my place of work said that the kindergarten teacher in his son's gan told them about kiddush on Friday night. (Maybe they even acted it out, I don't remember.)
My friend went to the principal and protested, that he didn't want religion being impressed on his child!
His other colleagues at work said to him, "It's Jewish culture! You're such a radical!"
I must say this was not my experience in my grandchildren's Kindergarten in Ramat Gan.
The name of this Kindergarten is Ramat Gan Gan.
I’d sooner send my kids to “Gan Ramat Gan”…
Ah yes, my son tells me that one is on Menachem Begin Rechov.
Despite the fact that the establishment secular Zionists intended to eliminate the Torah as the basis of Judaism, they still wanted to keep some kind of traditional Jewish character of the State. They understood, you can be an atheist and disregard feeling bound to Torah Law and still keep a Jewish character if you eat gefilta fish, use noise makers on Purim, light candles on Hannukah, make Shabbos the official day of rest and closure of businesses instead of Sunday, require kashrus in all public institutions, etc. They really did not want the state to devolve into a model of Paris or San Fransisco. They called their origin routine, "status quo." Unfortunately (for their aspirations) if you teach your children, "we like the ceremonial trappings, but we don't believe they have a divine source with an ultimate objective," those children and their children are going to conclude that the whole thing is stupid, burdensome and unnecessary, and gravitate to the Paris/San Fransisco model that frees them to fulfill their taavos. The ISC also strongly supported divestiture of the old traditional trappings as a matter of public policy.
Thus Noson, instead of capitulating to the notion that if you impose on people, it will solidify their defiance, perhaps it is better to work on showing the antagonists that the Torah has their best interest in mind by keeping Israel's Jewish character intact. I think that most of the Gedolim, Charedi and Dati public recognize what I am saying. Unfortunately there are a few whose fanaticism is counter-productive.
The anti-Bibi line shows how morally bankrupt the left is. There is zero reason why he should fold to the left mob. The left is the one who is ready to set the country on fire in order to stay in power. The left played BDS in order to pressure the elected government to stop the reforma. The left decided to go AWOL and use the army for they political aims. The army that is supposed to be above politics!!!
Zero Hakarat Hatov for the great stuff he has done for the country. Cancelling the 30 seats he keeps getting every election. And then you blame Bibi for not having a government? He definitely has his faults, but demanding him to step aside is absurd.
Regarding shabbot electricity, the way to get it kosher for shabbot is automation. Something that is possible these days, and even cheaper since it needs less manpower. But for some reason is being with held. There was a period that מכון מדעי טכנולוגי להלכה was in charge and they even automated the coal powerplant in Ashkelon to move the coals automatically around. But somehow the automation project stopped. Its fakenews to claim that electricity without chillul shabbot will cost more. There will definitely be costs, but it will also take costs down.
There is a lot of criticism you throw around, but there is zero nuance and its extremely one-sided. Therefore I see this blog as a propaganda spitfire for the shallow worldview you have build for yourself over the years.
Calling the 3 parties that joined the government as Chareidi and lumping them together just shows how you overlook the complexity of things.
I find it ironic and hypocritical how on the one hand, the ultra orthodox have nothing but disdain for secular Jews but yet will willingly take advantage of secular scientific inventions that the ultra orthodox wouldn’t have access to if not for the creativeness of secular Jews. I also find it ironic and hypocritical that they use those inventions to circumvent halachic restrictions that our religious ancestors weren’t able to yet at the same time tell secular Jews that they have to adhere to ways of living that harken back to the Middle Ages. If not for secular Jews (and others) with secular educations, y’all wouldn’t be enjoying whatever modern conveniences that y’all partake in. Can you name even one ultra Orthodox Jew that has won the Nobel Prize of all the 212 Jews who have won it since its inception? Y’all don’t work, don’t serve, and make pretend you are doing something by doing useless things like making pretend Betty Boop was cured of cancer because we all said Tehillim for her when in reality it was medical science which saved the day.
And it’s hypocritical how the Torah inveighs against stealing, corruption, and lying yet it’s the religious who seem to gravitate to the most corrupt and power hungry leaders like Nutty Yahu and Drumpf.
Several Orthodox Jews have indeed won Nobels…Nachman Shai, and I forget the name of the Mathematician from Israel who won several years ago for his contributions to Game Theory.
Maybe there were some. Was there a different Nachman Shai? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nachman_Shai?wprov=sfti1
No mention of a Nobel here. This guy was a journalist though so I don’t think he was making any contributions to science.
I’m seeing that there were many five who were practicing Jews, but two of them didn’t wear kippot or strictly adhere to kashrut, one converted after his prize to get married, and two we’re definitely orthodox, but one of them won his prize in Economics, Robert Aumann, if you consider that science. The other, Rosalyn Yallow in medicine. That’s out of 218. Statistically insignificant.
First of all there should be a מחאה against the way you are מבזה the holy תהילים.
Regarding your argument, yes it makes a lot of sense. A group of people enjoying the benefits of what they are preaching against. Nevertheless, aside that you speak in generalities and have zero sense for nuance. You also have a worldview that hasn't even scratched the surface of what Torah really means.
Every motse shabbos you make the blessing of בורא מאורי האש. Meaning of the words is that Hashem created the light of the fire. Wait a second, doesn't the midrash say that Adam hit 2 stones and thereby invented fire ? So why do we bless on Hashem creating fire?
The answer is that Hashem creates and human only 'discovers' what already was created. And just like we believe that HAshem a] created and b] also משגיח. Same with all the discoveries of human mankind. a] Hashem created and b] Hashem is משגיח for the right time that every specific so-to-say invention gets discovered.
If you believe that Torah is in competition with science, it is pure blasphemy. It means you compare them, while there not even in the same league. And if you see winning nobel prizes as the most noblest and cherished thing a person can attain, you haven't understood a thing about life.
Seeing your ranting, I start to understand the chareidi world that wants to protect what's so dear to them, by building walls and ignoring science. The גאווה and condensation is dripping out of your enlightened posts. Take a step back and remember that science only describes this world while Torah teaches us how to live life that is beyond this physical world.
So, thank you for taking the time to instruct me on on the Charedi worldview.
I understand your interpretation that what I said was demeaning to the Tehillim but I was not, in fact, disrespecting them at all. In fact, I admire and respect the psalms for the beautiful poetry and literature that it is. What I was saying was that the Charedi belief that reciting or reading them can cure someone of desease is a ridiculous belief. In fact, every experiment done to date that measured the efficacy of prayer for a better outcome for patients that were prayed for vs those who weren’t, shows no discernible difference. There are good studies that collate past research on the topic that you could look up if you wished to. I could help you if you wanted.
What does Torah really mean? Does it mean what the people (YES PEOPLE) who wrote it meant it to mean, or does it mean what the ancient and medieval interpreters thought it meant? The Chazal lived hundreds of years after the sources of the Pentateuch (5 Books of Moses) was written and then redacted. Those interpreters made assumptions about the text when they interpreted it, such as, 1. The Torah was written by God, 2. The texts are consistent, 3. The texts are cryptic and symbolic, and 4. The texts are prophetic and homiletic. All contradictions, anachronisms, misspellings, and mistakes about the natural world had to be smoothed over to accommodate these assumptions. But the people who wrote these stories, like the Adam and Eve stories, may not have even believed them themselves as there is ample evidence that many of these early stories such as the creation, the garden, and the flood, were taken from Babylonian sources and then demythologized to make them accord with the monotheism of the Jewish writers.
But truly I’m not trying to use condescension (or even “condensation 🌧️) towards the heritage of my people because based on the knowledge of the world during the Greek/Roman world and the Middle Ages, they did the best that they could. Their efforts encouraged education which led to Jewish people having high degrees of literacy in those times. But we live in the modern world and there is no need to believe in superstition and dogma anymore. Don’t misconstrue what I said to mean that I don’t believe in morals and justice, because I do.
And what kind of logic are you telling me? What kind of God do you worship who allows thousands of years of human generations (100’s of 1000’s in actuality since Homo Sapiens evolved) to suffer horrible diseases caused by bacteria killing innocent people including babies, and waits until 1928 to let Alexander Fleming discover penicillin?
And I never said winning a Nobel is the “most noblest and cherished thing a person can attain.” Where did I write that? Is that an example of the famous Talmudic style of argumentation? To put words in your debate partner’s mouth? I don’t think so. What I said was that if that person was to make that discovery which would overturn the science on that topic, he could win a Nobel and rightfully so because he would then prove his theory.
The Charedi world may want to insulate itself from the world but it is doing a disservice to its youth in my opinion by not preparing them to be productive members of society. How do you call yourself a man when you need welfare to care for your family when you are perfectly able to work??
By believing and stating that the Torah is written by people, you're a כופר even according to the rationalist criteria from this blog. My מחאה was right all along. You think/pretend you are criticizing the chareidi world, but essentially you spitting on both תורה שבכתב and תורה שבעל פה. And thereby disrespecting what you call "my people". The same people who are a living testimony that there is something that defies time and space. A living testimony that there is more then modernity. Something you have turned into a golden calf.
Wondering how the seder looks like at your home. Some folklore of cherry picked morals and justice?
I’m disrespecting my people? Well considering that the vast majority of Jewish people are either some version of Reform or don’t belong to any organized Jewish institution except maybe a JCC (Thank you Mordechai Kaplan), I’d say my understanding of reality conforms pretty close to the norm so I’m not disrespecting the vast majority of Jews. I may be a kofer according to you, but I’m in good company. I think I’m right and you think you’re right but people of differing opinions can disagree civilly without calling someone a heretic, but I guess that’s a normal reaction from a fundamentalist. I wasn’t even intending to disrespect you anyway. I was just informing you how the non-Orthodox and secular world understands the Torah based on modern academic research. Many of those academics consider themselves orthodox and are fully observant. I can’t help if you’re easily offended by facts.
Finally, I’m truly touched that you’re worried about my Seder but I can assure you that my gathering will be filled with family, and friends, and love. Thank you! Gut Yontif!
The reason that the Israel Electric Company does not use automation on Shabbat (for which they had the technology over 30 yrs ago) is simple - the electric company workers union is infamous for being the most powerful - and unscrupulous - one in the country. Electric company employees enjoy exorbitant benefits. such as completely free electricity, which is fully exploited to the extent that their consumption is exponentially more than average. And as they get double wages for working on Shabbat - why would they give this up?
Wow, sounds completely corrupt!
Is it my imagination, or is this Blog becoming more and more like the Haggadah?
Latest similarity - any mention of Moses has been expunged by the editor.
On a more serious note, for those suggesting that the Haggadah does mention Moshe, as in the words ויאמינו בה' ובמשה עבדו. Take a look at the אבן עזרא on this פסוק. Rav SF Zimmerman explains that the פסוק is not lauding Moshe, but rather the people had faith that Moshe was Hashem's servant.
The post makes no sense, because it's predicated on assigning relative importance to different people's politics. *Of course* NS thinks chametz laws are coercive or not worth passing, because its not his issue. To him its not important, so he thinks any law passed about it is ridiculous and unfair. He can't understand that millions of people feel the same about environmental laws, labor laws, safety laws?
That’s a false analogy. Environmental, labor, and safety laws benefit everyone by keeping our water clean, helping workers, and keeping people safe. Forced religious ritual observance is theocratic tyranny. Like Antiochus stopping Jews from keeping kosher.
A moral code is a national interest. Your argument is just in the specifics of how these morals are defined. Fortunately, democracies have a way of answering such questions: Elections.
True democracies have a way of purging the fascists just like we did to Trump. May the fascists of Israel have the same fate. I think from the dumpster fire Israel has become since December, y’all are in for a rude awakening. This coalition will eat it itself. The Israeli public seems to have had enough of Nutty Yahu
I didn't realize who I was responding to . Aren't you are a self-proclaimed atheist? If so, it's really not worth my time responding to you.
So why is it a waste of time to respond to me? Just because we stopped being religious, we secular Jews are still the same as you. I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same foods, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer (as you are)… If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
He didn't mention tickling, cooling or warming. His point was that he would not discuss the issue with someone who doesn't accept the premise that the Torah is true.
It is not worth anyone's time discussing these issues with atheists, כ"ש דפקר טפי.
You drip with vicious hate with every comment. That's all you bring to the table, raw hate.
You don't respect him or rabbis. You just appreciate his hatred for Orthodox Jews and feel it legitimizes yours.
“…In part, this is a longstanding resentment of a population that does not carry its share of military service or economic productivity and demands financial support from the rest of the country. …These include turning various mixed beaches into separate beaches, having the rest of the country pay for Shabbos electricity stringencies, preventing public transportation on Shabbos, having the rest of the country subsidize transportation for charedim, fining or imprisoning women who dress immodestly or read from the Torah at the Kotel, etc.
Another such charedi imposition on non-charedim is the Chametz Law, which was just passed. …”
This is the early consequences of the slippery slope progression to theocracy. And this is even before there is any chareidi populace majority. There is little doubt that given the demographic advancement of chareidim, that EY will be ruled by a theocratic majority with the elimination of the democratic rights that chilonim cherish. Just look at Iran if you think it can’t happen in EY. In due time, Israel’s military and economic prowess will diminish. No democratic, civil rights loving Israeli, the ones that militarily protect and economically secure Israel will want to remain in a state where you may be jailed for bringing chametz into a hospital. That why we see the present massive protests. No person in his right mind will want to live in a theocratic state as long as folks like HappyGo relish the thought of a Chareidi Theocratic state casting a homosexual of a 5 story building for their version of “Corruption on Earth”.
When military disaster strikes because Israel’s defences are laid low because most able-bodied men are pressing their behinds in life-long kollels, chareidim will blame it on rejection of Hashem. Like the cause of the churban bayit rishon, shaynee and the Shoah.
That’s what the chilonim and a few orthodox Yidden are demonstrating about.
It's interesting that "the Gedolim" haven't made any statements/offered guidance during this current upheaval. You would think now would be a good time for leadership.
Upheaval? What upheavel?
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Don't judge something by the noise it makes.
The Gedolim deserve extra respect for their silence now. It shows their clarity of vision, and how they understand past the news cycles with their mendacity, biases and skewed prisms.
Because the country was never established as a religious county, quite the contrary. As a secular democratic state, we cannot impose religious laws on the general population. It causes resentment and as Nathan stated, and I agree with him, it only has the opposite effect. So now you'll say, but they are not sensitive either... LGBTQIA+ ... So to that I'll reply, I'm against that too (two wrongs don't make a right) but based on your viewpoint, good for them (you are happy to do the same from the opposite direction). Furthermore, I accept the fact that it's a secular state and that we are only in Israel due to the secular founding fathers (they are not interested in the merits of Torah learning)
Just because a country was established a certain way doesn't mean it can't evolve. That's not an argument.
we pray everyday - וּמֵבִיא גוֹאֵל לִבְנֵי בְנֵיהֶם לְמַעַן שְׁמוֹ בְּאַהֲבָה
Jews returning to Israel and living there according to the Torah is how this is done. You can't detach this from Israel's history. Anyone detaching it prays וְתֶחֱזֶינָה עֵינֵינוּ בְּשׁוּבְךָ לְצִיּוֹן בְּרַחֲמִים with his eyes closed.
Nevertheless there is a lot of learning (especially Tanach Be'Iyun) to see Hashems hand in all of these processes. Like why was the state created by mainly non-religious Jews? What is the reforma really about? Why did we have to go through 2000 years of Galut?
The Sefer Eim Habanim Semeicha is a good starting point to get into these sugyas. Rav Kook is for the more advanced student.
When you say chareidim, you make it seem as if all chareidim are complicit in this insanity. To be fair, it is only the hotheaded radicals (who unfortunately speak for the majority of chareidim).
If you accuse a whole community, it would probably be more fair and productive to single out the radicals by name - who are directly responsible for this.
If someone doesn't want bread in public facilities on Pesach in Eretz Yisrael, why does that make him insane and a hotheaded radical?
Yes - when it is clear that such demands are counterproductive.
If my community needs to learn one thing, it's that you can't force your way of life on others it will backfire.
Every law that is supported by only some segments of society is forcing a change to the way others live. You don't seem to have a problem with laws in general, only laws that strengthen the Jewish character of Eretz Yisrael...
Also, there is a big difference between doing something that might backfire (bad strategy to achieve your goal) and being an insane hotheaded radical. You don't seem very level headed yourself.
Just because some people don't like something doesn't mean it's counterproductive.
Not allowing chametz in public facilities on Pesach in Eretz Yisrael is not forcing any way of life on anyone. That's absurd.
Israel is not Rome.
Wow, what a brilliant comeback! You're obviously right! You win!
I would argue that a hospital is not a typical public facility. People are there because they are sick, or are visiting people who are sick; those who are sick are not just making a quick trip there; and they're generally not able to choose the timing of their stay.
It's not like it's the driver's license bureau or land-registry office or something. In this case, the impact is on people who are already in some distress, and thus the potential for causing resentment is also far higher.
1. Blaming the Charedim for something that almost all Orthodox Jews in EY wanted is just wrong. Yes, the Charedim also wanted it, but it was not their idea and they weren't they ones that toppled the government over this.
2. They aren't trying to force their 'way of life'. Torah and Mitzvos aren't someone's 'way of life'. As long as ostensibly Mitzvah-observant treat their Mitzvos as a mere 'way of life' and not a covenant between them, and all Jews, and Hashem, they will never understand why thingsa re the way they are.
3. Your list of so-called coercions are either untrue or misrepresented. Right now, the Charedim are subsidizing the non-Charedi bus routes. The Charedi bus routes are filled to capacity, whereas in the non-Charedi areas they are emptier. That is one example.
1. He mentioned the right of dati leumi.
2. Frum people are doing just fine in virtually every other country, with chometz and all. We must look at ourselves, not others
3. All buses are subsidized. In fact, driving a car provides way more income to the state through gas taxes.
Frum people have to keep their heads down in other countries. The commenters here who are ashamed of halacha and what a Torah life really means should live in one of those other countries. Eretz Yisrael is supposed to be different.
Advocating that Yidden live outside Eretz Yisrael?! Only thing comes to mind is מרגלים אתם!!
If you don't believe in mitzvos and kedusha, why would you or should you live in Israel? You don't make any sense. But you're not trying to make sense, you're just trolling with propaganda and straw men.
No need to cry to Slifkin, you say out loud what he can't bring himself to say. Thanks for being so open about what you are.
1. Mention /= blame. The title and the bulk of the article is about Charedim, not D"L.
2. Doing fine is a weak yardstick. We have a chiyuv arvus, we can't say 'it's not our business'. The only question is, "what is the best way to go about this?" If in other countries we ignore our chiyuv arvus, we are not doing fine. And if there is no choice in other countries, that disproves your point.
3. טענו חיטין והודה לו לזכר קדשו
I totally agree with you that without Bibi there could have been a centre coalition and I wish that would happen. But do really think that Bibi is the cause and not just the focal point of a deeper divide in Israeli society which even if Bibi wasn't there it would hang it's hat on another point of contention?
Yes, I really do think that. The vast majority of the country has more or less the same approach on the two big issues - Palestinians and religion. That's why Bibi had to come up with the crazy "Leftist" charge in order to win the election.
This is simply false, and how are you not embarrassed to say such things? On the issue of Palestinians, yes, there is a national consensus - the proof is that the left hasn't won an election in more than a generation. But on the issue of religion, the "vast majority" of the country agrees on nothing.
Natan keeps removing this comment a few seconds after I posted it. What a joke he is.
For the record, Natan Slifkin threatened to ban me for what he called trolling and writing multiple comments. Adam Edelstein has been flooding the comments section with trolling, vulgarity, demonic hatred, and even calls for harm, all directed at Orthodox Jews. Natan Slifkin saw this and said nothing, which means he gives it his tacit approval. This is illuminating.
Sorry, but the idea that this is somehow a "provocation" is a bit of a reach. Without any "provocations," the anti-religious continues to take a dump on the religious. Without any provocation, the slippery slope continues to get slipperier.
Calling these things "provocations" is similar to victim-blaming.
The worst part is that the discussion is deeply non-halakhic. We aren't talking about serving chametz to hospital patients. Nor are we talking about it being served in the hospital cafeteria. We are talking about preventing an Israeli Arab doctor from bringing in a sandwich for lunch, an action that is מותר לכתחילה לדעת כל הפוסקים.