"People would do well to remember the words of the Sages: “Who is wise? He that foresees the consequences.”
(Note - in a previous post, I asked people not to troll the comments section, i.e. not to swamp it with inflammatory comments. The result was a greater amount of trolling than ever. So in future I am going to start deleting comments and/or banning people.)"
The extreme irony of those two statements appearing one after another!
We have a hospital next door to my institution (owned by the same big health system) that spends a lot of effort kashering its entire food service and public cafeteria for Pesach. In fact it is the only restaurant in the entire New York metro area where you can get a reasonably priced kosher for Pesach breakfast, lunch, or dinner -- the prices aren't jacked up!
But there is nobody at the entrances checking bags for bread. We make it easy to keep kosher but we don't force it on anyone. Besides, most of the patients aren't Jewish. What about the 20% of Israelis who aren't Jewish? There is no reason why the Israeli Christians should not be able to have bread for their Easter meals and there is no reason why the Israeli Muslims should not be able to have bread for their iftar meals.
Wow, what an amazing show of the secularist "ethics", "integrity", "honesty", and "law-abiding citizens" you always talk about. Smuggling chametz into hospitals, in violation of of hospital regulations and the law. Publicly distributing chametz in violation of the law. And then you coming out and saying, "See! When you pass laws some people don't like, they will break them, dishonestly or openly!" Ethics and integrity indeed.
Do the LGBT worry about likely repercussions before ramming their agenda through? No. Do you blame them? No. Do you even care? No. So stop whining about religious people in a holy land wanting their society to reflect that.
I agree with your general point that legislation for religion normally has a negative backlash. Today the most widely marked traditions in Israel (Brit Mila, Mezuza, not driving on Yom Kippur, Kiddush on Friday night) are not legislated, and I am sure that if the government required one of these actions by law, the backlash would lead to more people publicly flouting these mitzvot.
However I think that there as actually a broader question - it seems to be that the Religious community in Israel is becoming more insular, and the secular population is drifting further away from tradition, which is a trend we are seeing all over the world. And this is not just in areas where there is perceived "religious coercion".
One of the non-religious people I work with told me that the kindergartens in her neighborhood no longer have an "Abba and Ima Shel Shabbat", rather they have a end-of-week celebration which has no kiddush, challot, or Shabbat songs (and of course no gendered roles like Abba and Ima). A generation ago it was standard to have Kabbalat Shabbat in Ganim, no matter how secular.
Similarly, there has been a decline in other traditions such as Reading from a Torah for a Bar Mitzva, Fasting on Yom Kippur, or eating Matza during Pessach, and there seems to be much less awareness of basic Jewish traditions.
Part of this may be a response to Charedi demands, but I think another contributing factor is that Religious and Secular are interacting less than they did a generation ago. When I moved here 30 years ago, there were many neighborhoods with Haredi, DL, and Chilonim living together (Think of Bayit VeGan, or even Bnei Brak), and it was common for religious and Haredi families to live in even the most secular neighborhoods.
Today the vast majority of Haredim live in areas that are 100% Haredi, and they would not consider living anywhere else, and there are more towns or neighborhoods that are 100% Dati-Leumi, or 100% Secular.
The result is that more and more people are growing up in neighborhoods where there is no communal sense of Jewish tradition.
Despite the fact that the establishment secular Zionists intended to eliminate the Torah as the basis of Judaism, they still wanted to keep some kind of traditional Jewish character of the State. They understood, you can be an atheist and disregard feeling bound to Torah Law and still keep a Jewish character if you eat gefilta fish, use noise makers on Purim, light candles on Hannukah, make Shabbos the official day of rest and closure of businesses instead of Sunday, require kashrus in all public institutions, etc. They really did not want the state to devolve into a model of Paris or San Fransisco. They called their origin routine, "status quo." Unfortunately (for their aspirations) if you teach your children, "we like the ceremonial trappings, but we don't believe they have a divine source with an ultimate objective," those children and their children are going to conclude that the whole thing is stupid, burdensome and unnecessary, and gravitate to the Paris/San Fransisco model that frees them to fulfill their taavos. The ISC also strongly supported divestiture of the old traditional trappings as a matter of public policy.
Thus Noson, instead of capitulating to the notion that if you impose on people, it will solidify their defiance, perhaps it is better to work on showing the antagonists that the Torah has their best interest in mind by keeping Israel's Jewish character intact. I think that most of the Gedolim, Charedi and Dati public recognize what I am saying. Unfortunately there are a few whose fanaticism is counter-productive.
The anti-Bibi line shows how morally bankrupt the left is. There is zero reason why he should fold to the left mob. The left is the one who is ready to set the country on fire in order to stay in power. The left played BDS in order to pressure the elected government to stop the reforma. The left decided to go AWOL and use the army for they political aims. The army that is supposed to be above politics!!!
Zero Hakarat Hatov for the great stuff he has done for the country. Cancelling the 30 seats he keeps getting every election. And then you blame Bibi for not having a government? He definitely has his faults, but demanding him to step aside is absurd.
Regarding shabbot electricity, the way to get it kosher for shabbot is automation. Something that is possible these days, and even cheaper since it needs less manpower. But for some reason is being with held. There was a period that מכון מדעי טכנולוגי להלכה was in charge and they even automated the coal powerplant in Ashkelon to move the coals automatically around. But somehow the automation project stopped. Its fakenews to claim that electricity without chillul shabbot will cost more. There will definitely be costs, but it will also take costs down.
There is a lot of criticism you throw around, but there is zero nuance and its extremely one-sided. Therefore I see this blog as a propaganda spitfire for the shallow worldview you have build for yourself over the years.
Calling the 3 parties that joined the government as Chareidi and lumping them together just shows how you overlook the complexity of things.
Is it my imagination, or is this Blog becoming more and more like the Haggadah?
Latest similarity - any mention of Moses has been expunged by the editor.
On a more serious note, for those suggesting that the Haggadah does mention Moshe, as in the words ויאמינו בה' ובמשה עבדו. Take a look at the אבן עזרא on this פסוק. Rav SF Zimmerman explains that the פסוק is not lauding Moshe, but rather the people had faith that Moshe was Hashem's servant.
The post makes no sense, because it's predicated on assigning relative importance to different people's politics. *Of course* NS thinks chametz laws are coercive or not worth passing, because its not his issue. To him its not important, so he thinks any law passed about it is ridiculous and unfair. He can't understand that millions of people feel the same about environmental laws, labor laws, safety laws?
“…In part, this is a longstanding resentment of a population that does not carry its share of military service or economic productivity and demands financial support from the rest of the country. …These include turning various mixed beaches into separate beaches, having the rest of the country pay for Shabbos electricity stringencies, preventing public transportation on Shabbos, having the rest of the country subsidize transportation for charedim, fining or imprisoning women who dress immodestly or read from the Torah at the Kotel, etc.
Another such charedi imposition on non-charedim is the Chametz Law, which was just passed. …”
This is the early consequences of the slippery slope progression to theocracy. And this is even before there is any chareidi populace majority. There is little doubt that given the demographic advancement of chareidim, that EY will be ruled by a theocratic majority with the elimination of the democratic rights that chilonim cherish. Just look at Iran if you think it can’t happen in EY. In due time, Israel’s military and economic prowess will diminish. No democratic, civil rights loving Israeli, the ones that militarily protect and economically secure Israel will want to remain in a state where you may be jailed for bringing chametz into a hospital. That why we see the present massive protests. No person in his right mind will want to live in a theocratic state as long as folks like HappyGo relish the thought of a Chareidi Theocratic state casting a homosexual of a 5 story building for their version of “Corruption on Earth”.
When military disaster strikes because Israel’s defences are laid low because most able-bodied men are pressing their behinds in life-long kollels, chareidim will blame it on rejection of Hashem. Like the cause of the churban bayit rishon, shaynee and the Shoah.
That’s what the chilonim and a few orthodox Yidden are demonstrating about.
It's interesting that "the Gedolim" haven't made any statements/offered guidance during this current upheaval. You would think now would be a good time for leadership.
Because the country was never established as a religious county, quite the contrary. As a secular democratic state, we cannot impose religious laws on the general population. It causes resentment and as Nathan stated, and I agree with him, it only has the opposite effect. So now you'll say, but they are not sensitive either... LGBTQIA+ ... So to that I'll reply, I'm against that too (two wrongs don't make a right) but based on your viewpoint, good for them (you are happy to do the same from the opposite direction). Furthermore, I accept the fact that it's a secular state and that we are only in Israel due to the secular founding fathers (they are not interested in the merits of Torah learning)
When you say chareidim, you make it seem as if all chareidim are complicit in this insanity. To be fair, it is only the hotheaded radicals (who unfortunately speak for the majority of chareidim).
If you accuse a whole community, it would probably be more fair and productive to single out the radicals by name - who are directly responsible for this.
1. Blaming the Charedim for something that almost all Orthodox Jews in EY wanted is just wrong. Yes, the Charedim also wanted it, but it was not their idea and they weren't they ones that toppled the government over this.
2. They aren't trying to force their 'way of life'. Torah and Mitzvos aren't someone's 'way of life'. As long as ostensibly Mitzvah-observant treat their Mitzvos as a mere 'way of life' and not a covenant between them, and all Jews, and Hashem, they will never understand why thingsa re the way they are.
3. Your list of so-called coercions are either untrue or misrepresented. Right now, the Charedim are subsidizing the non-Charedi bus routes. The Charedi bus routes are filled to capacity, whereas in the non-Charedi areas they are emptier. That is one example.
I totally agree with you that without Bibi there could have been a centre coalition and I wish that would happen. But do really think that Bibi is the cause and not just the focal point of a deeper divide in Israeli society which even if Bibi wasn't there it would hang it's hat on another point of contention?
Sorry, but the idea that this is somehow a "provocation" is a bit of a reach. Without any "provocations," the anti-religious continues to take a dump on the religious. Without any provocation, the slippery slope continues to get slipperier.
Calling these things "provocations" is similar to victim-blaming.
"People would do well to remember the words of the Sages: “Who is wise? He that foresees the consequences.”
(Note - in a previous post, I asked people not to troll the comments section, i.e. not to swamp it with inflammatory comments. The result was a greater amount of trolling than ever. So in future I am going to start deleting comments and/or banning people.)"
The extreme irony of those two statements appearing one after another!
We have a hospital next door to my institution (owned by the same big health system) that spends a lot of effort kashering its entire food service and public cafeteria for Pesach. In fact it is the only restaurant in the entire New York metro area where you can get a reasonably priced kosher for Pesach breakfast, lunch, or dinner -- the prices aren't jacked up!
But there is nobody at the entrances checking bags for bread. We make it easy to keep kosher but we don't force it on anyone. Besides, most of the patients aren't Jewish. What about the 20% of Israelis who aren't Jewish? There is no reason why the Israeli Christians should not be able to have bread for their Easter meals and there is no reason why the Israeli Muslims should not be able to have bread for their iftar meals.
Wow, what an amazing show of the secularist "ethics", "integrity", "honesty", and "law-abiding citizens" you always talk about. Smuggling chametz into hospitals, in violation of of hospital regulations and the law. Publicly distributing chametz in violation of the law. And then you coming out and saying, "See! When you pass laws some people don't like, they will break them, dishonestly or openly!" Ethics and integrity indeed.
Do the LGBT worry about likely repercussions before ramming their agenda through? No. Do you blame them? No. Do you even care? No. So stop whining about religious people in a holy land wanting their society to reflect that.
I agree with your general point that legislation for religion normally has a negative backlash. Today the most widely marked traditions in Israel (Brit Mila, Mezuza, not driving on Yom Kippur, Kiddush on Friday night) are not legislated, and I am sure that if the government required one of these actions by law, the backlash would lead to more people publicly flouting these mitzvot.
However I think that there as actually a broader question - it seems to be that the Religious community in Israel is becoming more insular, and the secular population is drifting further away from tradition, which is a trend we are seeing all over the world. And this is not just in areas where there is perceived "religious coercion".
One of the non-religious people I work with told me that the kindergartens in her neighborhood no longer have an "Abba and Ima Shel Shabbat", rather they have a end-of-week celebration which has no kiddush, challot, or Shabbat songs (and of course no gendered roles like Abba and Ima). A generation ago it was standard to have Kabbalat Shabbat in Ganim, no matter how secular.
Similarly, there has been a decline in other traditions such as Reading from a Torah for a Bar Mitzva, Fasting on Yom Kippur, or eating Matza during Pessach, and there seems to be much less awareness of basic Jewish traditions.
Part of this may be a response to Charedi demands, but I think another contributing factor is that Religious and Secular are interacting less than they did a generation ago. When I moved here 30 years ago, there were many neighborhoods with Haredi, DL, and Chilonim living together (Think of Bayit VeGan, or even Bnei Brak), and it was common for religious and Haredi families to live in even the most secular neighborhoods.
Today the vast majority of Haredim live in areas that are 100% Haredi, and they would not consider living anywhere else, and there are more towns or neighborhoods that are 100% Dati-Leumi, or 100% Secular.
The result is that more and more people are growing up in neighborhoods where there is no communal sense of Jewish tradition.
Despite the fact that the establishment secular Zionists intended to eliminate the Torah as the basis of Judaism, they still wanted to keep some kind of traditional Jewish character of the State. They understood, you can be an atheist and disregard feeling bound to Torah Law and still keep a Jewish character if you eat gefilta fish, use noise makers on Purim, light candles on Hannukah, make Shabbos the official day of rest and closure of businesses instead of Sunday, require kashrus in all public institutions, etc. They really did not want the state to devolve into a model of Paris or San Fransisco. They called their origin routine, "status quo." Unfortunately (for their aspirations) if you teach your children, "we like the ceremonial trappings, but we don't believe they have a divine source with an ultimate objective," those children and their children are going to conclude that the whole thing is stupid, burdensome and unnecessary, and gravitate to the Paris/San Fransisco model that frees them to fulfill their taavos. The ISC also strongly supported divestiture of the old traditional trappings as a matter of public policy.
Thus Noson, instead of capitulating to the notion that if you impose on people, it will solidify their defiance, perhaps it is better to work on showing the antagonists that the Torah has their best interest in mind by keeping Israel's Jewish character intact. I think that most of the Gedolim, Charedi and Dati public recognize what I am saying. Unfortunately there are a few whose fanaticism is counter-productive.
The anti-Bibi line shows how morally bankrupt the left is. There is zero reason why he should fold to the left mob. The left is the one who is ready to set the country on fire in order to stay in power. The left played BDS in order to pressure the elected government to stop the reforma. The left decided to go AWOL and use the army for they political aims. The army that is supposed to be above politics!!!
Zero Hakarat Hatov for the great stuff he has done for the country. Cancelling the 30 seats he keeps getting every election. And then you blame Bibi for not having a government? He definitely has his faults, but demanding him to step aside is absurd.
Regarding shabbot electricity, the way to get it kosher for shabbot is automation. Something that is possible these days, and even cheaper since it needs less manpower. But for some reason is being with held. There was a period that מכון מדעי טכנולוגי להלכה was in charge and they even automated the coal powerplant in Ashkelon to move the coals automatically around. But somehow the automation project stopped. Its fakenews to claim that electricity without chillul shabbot will cost more. There will definitely be costs, but it will also take costs down.
There is a lot of criticism you throw around, but there is zero nuance and its extremely one-sided. Therefore I see this blog as a propaganda spitfire for the shallow worldview you have build for yourself over the years.
Calling the 3 parties that joined the government as Chareidi and lumping them together just shows how you overlook the complexity of things.
Is it my imagination, or is this Blog becoming more and more like the Haggadah?
Latest similarity - any mention of Moses has been expunged by the editor.
On a more serious note, for those suggesting that the Haggadah does mention Moshe, as in the words ויאמינו בה' ובמשה עבדו. Take a look at the אבן עזרא on this פסוק. Rav SF Zimmerman explains that the פסוק is not lauding Moshe, but rather the people had faith that Moshe was Hashem's servant.
The post makes no sense, because it's predicated on assigning relative importance to different people's politics. *Of course* NS thinks chametz laws are coercive or not worth passing, because its not his issue. To him its not important, so he thinks any law passed about it is ridiculous and unfair. He can't understand that millions of people feel the same about environmental laws, labor laws, safety laws?
“…In part, this is a longstanding resentment of a population that does not carry its share of military service or economic productivity and demands financial support from the rest of the country. …These include turning various mixed beaches into separate beaches, having the rest of the country pay for Shabbos electricity stringencies, preventing public transportation on Shabbos, having the rest of the country subsidize transportation for charedim, fining or imprisoning women who dress immodestly or read from the Torah at the Kotel, etc.
Another such charedi imposition on non-charedim is the Chametz Law, which was just passed. …”
This is the early consequences of the slippery slope progression to theocracy. And this is even before there is any chareidi populace majority. There is little doubt that given the demographic advancement of chareidim, that EY will be ruled by a theocratic majority with the elimination of the democratic rights that chilonim cherish. Just look at Iran if you think it can’t happen in EY. In due time, Israel’s military and economic prowess will diminish. No democratic, civil rights loving Israeli, the ones that militarily protect and economically secure Israel will want to remain in a state where you may be jailed for bringing chametz into a hospital. That why we see the present massive protests. No person in his right mind will want to live in a theocratic state as long as folks like HappyGo relish the thought of a Chareidi Theocratic state casting a homosexual of a 5 story building for their version of “Corruption on Earth”.
When military disaster strikes because Israel’s defences are laid low because most able-bodied men are pressing their behinds in life-long kollels, chareidim will blame it on rejection of Hashem. Like the cause of the churban bayit rishon, shaynee and the Shoah.
That’s what the chilonim and a few orthodox Yidden are demonstrating about.
It's interesting that "the Gedolim" haven't made any statements/offered guidance during this current upheaval. You would think now would be a good time for leadership.
Because the country was never established as a religious county, quite the contrary. As a secular democratic state, we cannot impose religious laws on the general population. It causes resentment and as Nathan stated, and I agree with him, it only has the opposite effect. So now you'll say, but they are not sensitive either... LGBTQIA+ ... So to that I'll reply, I'm against that too (two wrongs don't make a right) but based on your viewpoint, good for them (you are happy to do the same from the opposite direction). Furthermore, I accept the fact that it's a secular state and that we are only in Israel due to the secular founding fathers (they are not interested in the merits of Torah learning)
When you say chareidim, you make it seem as if all chareidim are complicit in this insanity. To be fair, it is only the hotheaded radicals (who unfortunately speak for the majority of chareidim).
If you accuse a whole community, it would probably be more fair and productive to single out the radicals by name - who are directly responsible for this.
1. Blaming the Charedim for something that almost all Orthodox Jews in EY wanted is just wrong. Yes, the Charedim also wanted it, but it was not their idea and they weren't they ones that toppled the government over this.
2. They aren't trying to force their 'way of life'. Torah and Mitzvos aren't someone's 'way of life'. As long as ostensibly Mitzvah-observant treat their Mitzvos as a mere 'way of life' and not a covenant between them, and all Jews, and Hashem, they will never understand why thingsa re the way they are.
3. Your list of so-called coercions are either untrue or misrepresented. Right now, the Charedim are subsidizing the non-Charedi bus routes. The Charedi bus routes are filled to capacity, whereas in the non-Charedi areas they are emptier. That is one example.
I totally agree with you that without Bibi there could have been a centre coalition and I wish that would happen. But do really think that Bibi is the cause and not just the focal point of a deeper divide in Israeli society which even if Bibi wasn't there it would hang it's hat on another point of contention?
Sorry, but the idea that this is somehow a "provocation" is a bit of a reach. Without any "provocations," the anti-religious continues to take a dump on the religious. Without any provocation, the slippery slope continues to get slipperier.
Calling these things "provocations" is similar to victim-blaming.