Because surely the advantages accrue to a person who is truly committed to a religious marriage and an important ingredient of that is 'religious' i.e. believing.
Interesting your claim that the bashert concept is dangerous but the secular world has even more dangerous points. You can say the same thing about 1000 different things in all areas of life, because from marriage to domicile to elections, the choices we make in no way imply we think them *perfect*. We just think them the *best*. Highlighting flaws (in any event subjective) accomplishes nothing for someone who's already made his selection, because any alternative can also be shown to have flaws. All changes in hashkafa or politics is merely the exchange of one set of problems for another.
"Overall, I think it is enormously advantageous for boys and girls to only form relationships in the context of assessing suitability for marriage based on shared goals and values."
Not so simple.
For the naive and brainwashed among the Charedim, this can lead to marriages where there is ONLY suitability based on criteria such as skirt length and number of years of Kollel, but no physical attraction or love to each other. This can cause deep resentment to this system after the brainwashing has worn off.
In contrast, in the secular world there isn't much of a variety of values for two people in the same economic class, so physical attraction is the primary motive for a marriage partner.
Lower divorce rates in religious communities could be due to the fact that the marriages are happier. Or they could be due to stigma surrounding divorce that leads people to stay in unhappy marriages. This stigma is largely absent in the non-religious world.
This alleged stigma did not stop several charedi couples I know from divorcing in the last few years. In one case, the only reason I can ascertain for the divorce, from inside info, was the wife was unhappy, and everyone, including one or more rabbis, was okay with this.
"(Incidentally, this is a rare case where I believe that the way things are done in charedi circles is superior to what happens in non-charedi circles. While the shidduch system certainly has its drawbacks, overall I think it is enormously advantageous for boys and girls to only form relationships in the context of assessing suitability for marriage based on shared goals and values.)"
Nice!
Would it not be too hard for dati boys and girls to stay away from forming relationships with each other if they are part of Israeli society and interact regularly with secular people and media and all their boys and girls are very occupied with relationships? Maybe this is only possible for Chareidim who are more isolationist.
“Orthodox dating” is a newfangled modern concept, since the Jewish way was to pair up young people, who then approved or rejected each other. It does seem to work for young men not yet desperate for women and for young women not yet desperate for motherhood. A brief singlehood that is a “taanit-tzibur” rather than a “ra’av.” IMHO this is the message of Kiddushin 29b: get married young, lest ch’v you descend into Yevamos 62b “b’li simcha” misery or a Kiddushin 40a descent into z’nut.
While the benefits of marriage are no doubt as you say, that's only if you are allowed into the club. However many Jewish people with mental illness, developmental disabilities, or some other manifestation of being "too different" and considered undatable (in a shiduch sense) and only get married by lying or failing to reveal important information.
Shulchan Aruch (Even Haezer 1) says:
"חייב כל אדם לישא אשה" and also says that "ומי שעברו עליו ך' שנה ואינו רוצה לישא ב"ד כופין אותו לישא". That the beis enforces marriage after age 20. It is true that the Rema says that we do not do that, but the
Beis Shmuel explains this is only because "אין גוזרים גזירה על הציבור אא"כ רוב ציבור יכולים לעמוד בו". But in principle it's essential that people marry. And then it later says "אע"פ שקיים פריה ורביה אסור לו לעמוד בלא אשה". So even after procreation one must be married. Even for חרש וחרשת chazal were meskain kiddushin. And I am discussing people who are able to talk and who are chayiv in mitsvos.
But the tsibur makes it impossible for some (when they don't lie or can't lie). And then because they are not allowed de facto to marry, they inevitably will commit huge aveiros. They also feel socially rejected and as though they are not full Jews. So it seems that we limit the benefits the marriage within our community.
You need the input of psychologists that have orthodox patients. You play down the importance of sexual attraction in marriage. You make marraige sound like a comfortable business arrangement. Not an attractive situation.
What about the fact that the Creator of the universe demanded that we be religious and keep the Torah?
People who are genuinely sincere about practicing Judiasm don't weigh benefits vs perceived disadavntages, as if it is a choice of which vehicle to purchase.
Hmmm maybe Chrisitianity is a good choice...or maybe a sip of agnosticism chv....
Yes we should strive to comprehend as much as possible the many good reasons for mitzvos but on a most fundemental level we do it because He said so.
Those who listen go to Paradise after they die. Those who disobey burn in hell.
You don't like it? It won't change the reality of the basic tenets of Judiasm.
He is talking to people who don't find any other proofs for Judaism compelling. He is saying even if you dont find other reasons to believe you should do so because its beneficial for you. You are more likely to have a happy life so why not just go for it.
As many others have pointed out, all of the "evidence" that religion leads to happiness or success this way or that is colored by the fact that most people in the dataset actually believe in their religion. Until there is a study comparing outcomes of orthopraxy vs. total non-observance, all of this is useless.
Of course. I just don't see how telling people that there are benefits of living a generic traditional religious lifestyle will get them to believe in the tenets of the Torah. How do you get from here to there? Is this the intellectual equivalent of kugel and cholent kiruv?
part of the lifestyle with orthodox Judaism is believing so in order to do this they can just decide to believe. They don't need proof. There are several arguments for truth of Torah that they may not be convinced by enough to become a believer but they can decide to go with them because the lifestyle will be so rewarding anyway.
How can we expect people to do the mitzva of believing otherwise, if they don't find any of the proofs convincing?
Not arguing that the benefits don't help convince people. But it's part of a package, you need to convince them through arguments, through showing the benefits, through cholent and kugel, through cultural immersion. I am just saying that anybody who becomes religious because of these generic benefits alone (without eventually believing independently) will likely not get these benefits either.
Hmm you raise some interesting points. I think the religious approach regarding human sexuality and family matters may have some drawbacks (e.g. telling teenagers they go to hell for masturbating, stigmatization of homosexuals, making it impossible to have healthy platonic relationships with members of the opposite sex, agunot, pumping out your 7.1 babies who will all grow up in poverty while your husband learns in Kollel, etc) but is extremely healthy and normal, all things considered.
Actually they're not specific to either, they are idiosyncratic viewpoints, colored by one's personal point of view. The same is true of his points from the secular side - the fear of "stigmatizing homosexuals" is a left wing phobia, not a general secular one.
Yes it is a general secular one. There is no good reason to think homosexuality is inherently immoral other than “God said so”. If the Bible never mentioned it then this wouldn't even be an issue.
Not true. Millions of people are totally non-religious, yet still repulsed by homosexuality.
Lest you claim that they are still somehow influenced by Christianity, a) I don't buy that argument, and b) societies with no exposure to Christianity, or that predated Christianity, also find it disgusting. Not for naught is it known as "unnatural", not "unchristian."
After a 10 second google search I found these polls which shows 78% of religiously unaffiliated in the US support same-sex marriage. And every measure of religiosity ("Belief in God", "Importance of religion in one's life", "Attendance at religious services") is correlated with more opposition to same-sex marriage. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/views-about-same-sex-marriage/.
It's not hard to find other polls which replicate these results.
"The Pew Research Center's 2013 Global Attitudes Survey "finds broad acceptance of homosexuality in North America, the European Union, and much of Latin America, but equally widespread rejection in predominantly Muslim nations and in Africa, as well as in parts of Asia and in Russia". The survey also finds "acceptance of homosexuality is particularly widespread in countries where religion is less central in people's lives. "
Incidentally, the only atheist I've ever met who's repulsed by homosexuals also was religious for most of his life and only became an atheist in his 30s. I don't think that's a coincidence. I reckon that if was brought up with atheist parents and atheist friends, his views on the matter would be quite different today. It's strange that you would deny that living in a religious culture would influence one's views.
What is healthy and what is a drawback is inherently subjective and colored by one's views on religion and tradition. Thus, just to take one of your examples, an atheist who has no respect for the Bible will view "stigmatization of homosexuals" as a drawback. Someone with religious feeling sees the promotion of the family as healthy.
Fair and true. But the rabbi is presumably trying to promote the benefits of religion to secular people, not just people who are already religious. So I think secular concerns are quite relevant here and should be taken into consideration
right but he doesn't believe you go to hell for masturbating or stigmatisiag homosexuals, agunot or poverty or kollel. So for him that is not a problem.
Yeah, I know you have a hard time with this whole hell business. But hey, I got news for you. Just because you're so gung-ho about going there doesn't mean that anyone else wants to!
You don’t need to threaten people with hellfire for not believing in gravity. You only have to do this for a belief system that lacks any actual good arguments for its truth
If I gave you solid proof ,by your standards ,that eating sugar was bad for you and you accepted this proof, do you think getting you to stop eating sugar won't be helped by describing specific horrible diseases caused by eating sugar?(assuming fear leads to avoidance of the target behavior , a different topic)
This conversation seems to be discussing actions first and then beliefs second? Some confusion.
The reason why religious people are more likely to get married is because they are more likely to cling to old-fashioned traditional values. Modern young people see less value in marriage in the first place.
Marriage is so good that the Torah allows multiple wives. I guess the more the merrier.
Surely all the benefits of religious marriage only apply to people who truly believe in Torah Judaism?
Why?
Because surely the advantages accrue to a person who is truly committed to a religious marriage and an important ingredient of that is 'religious' i.e. believing.
To counter claims that religious observance is harmful physically and mentally.
An unmarried man was informed that married people live longer. The man responded it just SEEMS LONGER.
Agreed, more or less, on most points.
Interesting your claim that the bashert concept is dangerous but the secular world has even more dangerous points. You can say the same thing about 1000 different things in all areas of life, because from marriage to domicile to elections, the choices we make in no way imply we think them *perfect*. We just think them the *best*. Highlighting flaws (in any event subjective) accomplishes nothing for someone who's already made his selection, because any alternative can also be shown to have flaws. All changes in hashkafa or politics is merely the exchange of one set of problems for another.
"Overall, I think it is enormously advantageous for boys and girls to only form relationships in the context of assessing suitability for marriage based on shared goals and values."
Not so simple.
For the naive and brainwashed among the Charedim, this can lead to marriages where there is ONLY suitability based on criteria such as skirt length and number of years of Kollel, but no physical attraction or love to each other. This can cause deep resentment to this system after the brainwashing has worn off.
In contrast, in the secular world there isn't much of a variety of values for two people in the same economic class, so physical attraction is the primary motive for a marriage partner.
Would married homosexuals live longer ?
Lower divorce rates in religious communities could be due to the fact that the marriages are happier. Or they could be due to stigma surrounding divorce that leads people to stay in unhappy marriages. This stigma is largely absent in the non-religious world.
This alleged stigma did not stop several charedi couples I know from divorcing in the last few years. In one case, the only reason I can ascertain for the divorce, from inside info, was the wife was unhappy, and everyone, including one or more rabbis, was okay with this.
"With this", that she divorced for that reason?
Yes, for this reason. My wife tried to talk her out of it, and then told me what she tried to talk her out of.
"(Incidentally, this is a rare case where I believe that the way things are done in charedi circles is superior to what happens in non-charedi circles. While the shidduch system certainly has its drawbacks, overall I think it is enormously advantageous for boys and girls to only form relationships in the context of assessing suitability for marriage based on shared goals and values.)"
Nice!
Would it not be too hard for dati boys and girls to stay away from forming relationships with each other if they are part of Israeli society and interact regularly with secular people and media and all their boys and girls are very occupied with relationships? Maybe this is only possible for Chareidim who are more isolationist.
“Orthodox dating” is a newfangled modern concept, since the Jewish way was to pair up young people, who then approved or rejected each other. It does seem to work for young men not yet desperate for women and for young women not yet desperate for motherhood. A brief singlehood that is a “taanit-tzibur” rather than a “ra’av.” IMHO this is the message of Kiddushin 29b: get married young, lest ch’v you descend into Yevamos 62b “b’li simcha” misery or a Kiddushin 40a descent into z’nut.
While the benefits of marriage are no doubt as you say, that's only if you are allowed into the club. However many Jewish people with mental illness, developmental disabilities, or some other manifestation of being "too different" and considered undatable (in a shiduch sense) and only get married by lying or failing to reveal important information.
Shulchan Aruch (Even Haezer 1) says:
"חייב כל אדם לישא אשה" and also says that "ומי שעברו עליו ך' שנה ואינו רוצה לישא ב"ד כופין אותו לישא". That the beis enforces marriage after age 20. It is true that the Rema says that we do not do that, but the
Beis Shmuel explains this is only because "אין גוזרים גזירה על הציבור אא"כ רוב ציבור יכולים לעמוד בו". But in principle it's essential that people marry. And then it later says "אע"פ שקיים פריה ורביה אסור לו לעמוד בלא אשה". So even after procreation one must be married. Even for חרש וחרשת chazal were meskain kiddushin. And I am discussing people who are able to talk and who are chayiv in mitsvos.
But the tsibur makes it impossible for some (when they don't lie or can't lie). And then because they are not allowed de facto to marry, they inevitably will commit huge aveiros. They also feel socially rejected and as though they are not full Jews. So it seems that we limit the benefits the marriage within our community.
Years ago I heard reports that in Williamsburg Viagra is very popular because. there are chareidim who are not attracted to their wives.
Years ago I heard reports that in Williamsburg Viagra is very popular because. there are chareidim who are not attracted to their wives.
,RNS,
You need the input of psychologists that have orthodox patients. You play down the importance of sexual attraction in marriage. You make marraige sound like a comfortable business arrangement. Not an attractive situation.
What about the fact that the Creator of the universe demanded that we be religious and keep the Torah?
People who are genuinely sincere about practicing Judiasm don't weigh benefits vs perceived disadavntages, as if it is a choice of which vehicle to purchase.
Hmmm maybe Chrisitianity is a good choice...or maybe a sip of agnosticism chv....
Yes we should strive to comprehend as much as possible the many good reasons for mitzvos but on a most fundemental level we do it because He said so.
Those who listen go to Paradise after they die. Those who disobey burn in hell.
You don't like it? It won't change the reality of the basic tenets of Judiasm.
He is talking to people who don't find any other proofs for Judaism compelling. He is saying even if you dont find other reasons to believe you should do so because its beneficial for you. You are more likely to have a happy life so why not just go for it.
As many others have pointed out, all of the "evidence" that religion leads to happiness or success this way or that is colored by the fact that most people in the dataset actually believe in their religion. Until there is a study comparing outcomes of orthopraxy vs. total non-observance, all of this is useless.
why? orthodox Jewish religion requires belief.
Of course. I just don't see how telling people that there are benefits of living a generic traditional religious lifestyle will get them to believe in the tenets of the Torah. How do you get from here to there? Is this the intellectual equivalent of kugel and cholent kiruv?
part of the lifestyle with orthodox Judaism is believing so in order to do this they can just decide to believe. They don't need proof. There are several arguments for truth of Torah that they may not be convinced by enough to become a believer but they can decide to go with them because the lifestyle will be so rewarding anyway.
How can we expect people to do the mitzva of believing otherwise, if they don't find any of the proofs convincing?
Not arguing that the benefits don't help convince people. But it's part of a package, you need to convince them through arguments, through showing the benefits, through cholent and kugel, through cultural immersion. I am just saying that anybody who becomes religious because of these generic benefits alone (without eventually believing independently) will likely not get these benefits either.
To nuance that with האדם לא נברא אלא להתענג על השם.
Hmm you raise some interesting points. I think the religious approach regarding human sexuality and family matters may have some drawbacks (e.g. telling teenagers they go to hell for masturbating, stigmatization of homosexuals, making it impossible to have healthy platonic relationships with members of the opposite sex, agunot, pumping out your 7.1 babies who will all grow up in poverty while your husband learns in Kollel, etc) but is extremely healthy and normal, all things considered.
Most of the things you mention are specific to charedi Judiasm, not general religious Judaism.
Actually they're not specific to either, they are idiosyncratic viewpoints, colored by one's personal point of view. The same is true of his points from the secular side - the fear of "stigmatizing homosexuals" is a left wing phobia, not a general secular one.
Yes it is a general secular one. There is no good reason to think homosexuality is inherently immoral other than “God said so”. If the Bible never mentioned it then this wouldn't even be an issue.
And what about zoophila?
I have a beautiful dog. I think she may be a perfect shidduch for you!
Exactly right. Just substitute bestiality for homosexuality whenever someone claims it's not inherently immoral.
Not true. Millions of people are totally non-religious, yet still repulsed by homosexuality.
Lest you claim that they are still somehow influenced by Christianity, a) I don't buy that argument, and b) societies with no exposure to Christianity, or that predated Christianity, also find it disgusting. Not for naught is it known as "unnatural", not "unchristian."
After a 10 second google search I found these polls which shows 78% of religiously unaffiliated in the US support same-sex marriage. And every measure of religiosity ("Belief in God", "Importance of religion in one's life", "Attendance at religious services") is correlated with more opposition to same-sex marriage. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/views-about-same-sex-marriage/.
It's not hard to find other polls which replicate these results.
Also from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homosexuality
"The Pew Research Center's 2013 Global Attitudes Survey "finds broad acceptance of homosexuality in North America, the European Union, and much of Latin America, but equally widespread rejection in predominantly Muslim nations and in Africa, as well as in parts of Asia and in Russia". The survey also finds "acceptance of homosexuality is particularly widespread in countries where religion is less central in people's lives. "
Incidentally, the only atheist I've ever met who's repulsed by homosexuals also was religious for most of his life and only became an atheist in his 30s. I don't think that's a coincidence. I reckon that if was brought up with atheist parents and atheist friends, his views on the matter would be quite different today. It's strange that you would deny that living in a religious culture would influence one's views.
What I'm saying amount to this: Just as there are many shades within religion, there are also many shades within secularism. Do you deny this?
What is healthy and what is a drawback is inherently subjective and colored by one's views on religion and tradition. Thus, just to take one of your examples, an atheist who has no respect for the Bible will view "stigmatization of homosexuals" as a drawback. Someone with religious feeling sees the promotion of the family as healthy.
Fair and true. But the rabbi is presumably trying to promote the benefits of religion to secular people, not just people who are already religious. So I think secular concerns are quite relevant here and should be taken into consideration
right but he doesn't believe you go to hell for masturbating or stigmatisiag homosexuals, agunot or poverty or kollel. So for him that is not a problem.
Yeah, I know you have a hard time with this whole hell business. But hey, I got news for you. Just because you're so gung-ho about going there doesn't mean that anyone else wants to!
How much sleep are you losing over the Quran’s promise that non-Muslims go to hell?
My point exactly.
You don’t need to threaten people with hellfire for not believing in gravity. You only have to do this for a belief system that lacks any actual good arguments for its truth
I don't think you are correct.
If I gave you solid proof ,by your standards ,that eating sugar was bad for you and you accepted this proof, do you think getting you to stop eating sugar won't be helped by describing specific horrible diseases caused by eating sugar?(assuming fear leads to avoidance of the target behavior , a different topic)
This conversation seems to be discussing actions first and then beliefs second? Some confusion.
The reason why religious people are more likely to get married is because they are more likely to cling to old-fashioned traditional values. Modern young people see less value in marriage in the first place.
Or because religious people see more value in traditional values, while non religious people cling to current secular values.