It's a damn shame that this has to be said. All those 'antizionists' (read: anti-semites) really show their true colors when no words/protest/political 'activism'/literal murder (BDE to Mr. Kessler) has been done for those afghanis brutally expelled from turkey last week. It's probably because there weren't so many right? Only something like 1.7 million people, not even that many. Am Yisroel Chai, all this is doing is showing us who we can and can't trust once these pogroms come to the US. And they will, given the current atmosphere.
Ruth, you've made an excellent point about the global silence after those Afghan refugees were expelled. However, note that they were expelled from Pakistan, not Turkey.
As Moshe Fender has pointed out, you haven't got your hasbara soundbite right, but even if you had whatabouterry isn't going to cut it this time. Over 10,000 Gazans are dead, it's going to be around 50,000 by the time this is up. Of course, bigger wars have happened, but no bigger war is happening right now.
There is only one way to defend the war on Gaza: it is a war by a civilized country against savages. I'm not a Zionist, but I'm quite comfortable taking Israel's side against Palestinians. However, that's because if it was any civilized nation vs. any savage nation I would do the same. However, 90% of Jews would take the side of the savages, and hence they are rightly condemned by the world as murderers, according to their own moral standards.
Here's a simple test. There was a a country called South Africa that was a world leader in scientific innovation (performing the world's first heart transplant) and generally maintained a first world culture. The world demanded that it hand over the keys to bantus (who aren't even indigenous to South Africa, but immigrated over the past 500 years) and, sure enough, the bantus stripped the place bare, turned it into a wasteland of violence and squalor, and it's about to collapse into outright starvation.
In this case, 90% of Jews taking the side of barbarism against civilization might actually be a conservative estimate. Of course, South Africa was in many ways brutal and unjust to the bantu population, and was forced to do increasingly awful things to survive, but, then, so is Israel.
Suppose I understand correctly, you're saying that the same people who were against apartheid in South Africa nevertheless support Israel vs Palestinians. And this, in your opinion, is hypocrisy. The reality is that there are many important distinctions between the Palestinians and the Bantus, and it is not at all hypocritical to have supported the end of apartheid in SA while supporting Israel.
(1) Arabs have a better track record of self governance than bantus (albeit pretty crummy).
(2) Palestinians are more indigenous to Eretz Yisrael than bantus are to South Africa
(3) South African Bantu are more violent that Palestinians, having invented the appalling techniques of killing known as 'necklacing', and engaging in sadistic murders of Boer farmers on a literally daily basis that simply beggar belief and make the Shemini Atzeret massacre look tame.
There are probably some differences that point in the other direction. But the bottom line is you can't justify one without justifying the other.
Correction on your point number one: Israel's fundamental goal is that it is a spiritually holy place that was given to us by God. Hashem did not tell Avraham to go there so he could escape persecution. That "rationalism" ignores basic concepts of Judaism because it can not sufficiently measure, explain or understand spirituality and holiness, is one of its major problems.
People are generally quite stupid. The press says the world is flat, then many will believe it.
Israel allows the foreign press to come here and report about the war, even when harshly criticising the military and the state in itself. So people see that on TV
Try to go report to any Arab country criticising their military and country, you will last the same an ice cube lasts in Teheran on a summer day.
But this requires getting information by several different channels and being able to make the effort to critically asses what happens around the world.
Result: Israel, certainly not a perfect place, is regarded as the cause of all evil in the middle east and beyond. Israel, the only country where minorities, even hostile ones, grow and have their rights respected, sometimes to the detriment of the majority (read prayer rights of Jews on Har Habaiyt). The only place where Christianity is not being obliterated and where Arabs have higher standards of life, including those living under PA occupation.
Those people should ask themselves what would happen if tomorrow, all Israeli Jews and let's be generous, all Jews in the world, would leave the planet and establish the first mega-miniyan in Mars. Would the Syrian government stop killing its own citizens? Would Lebanese Christians and Muslims stop their murderous hatred towards each other? Would women in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq and so on decide on their own if they want to cover their head, without the risk of being arrested or worse? Would Sunni and Shia stop butchering each other in Yemen, Iraq, and all these other tourist destinations? Would all Arab autocracies just go home and stop oppressing their people?
If anyone replies yes to any of the above, then they are brainless and/or full of hatred.
And yet, it seems the Israel is somehow guilty for the shortcomings of everyone around us. Is it possible that Arab money has an influence on the press?
"...what would happen if tomorrow, all Israeli Jews and let's be generous, all Jews in the world, would leave the planet..."
There was actually a science fiction book written with the above theme whereby the whole country of Israel left the planet Earth. I cannot recall the author's name; he lives (lived?) in Maine, as I recall. I also don't recall much of the story. But maybe that needs to be our future. Looks to me like the Holocaust is on its way back again. So much for "never again".
Hmmm. Doesn't sound familiar but it's been a while. I met the author at some function in Maine (while we were living there). He was the only frum guy in the town he was living in. Somewhere I have his book (I think).
Very bad meme that plays into Palestinian propaganda. The meme should read Palestinians NOT Hamas. They are one and the same. There are no civilians left in Gaza.
Isn’t life convenient when we can control both sides of the narrative?
This list absolves the Israelis of any responsibility towards their own future, and allows them to continue their untenable march to the abyss.
The situation today cannot continue. The Palestinians cannot continue having children and searching for a life for themselves while we pat ourselves on the back with slogans like ‘the most moral army on earth’. They are not disappearing, nobody is coming to beam them back their home planet. Absent a plan for the future, we will continue to see pogroms, massacres, terrorist attacks, and an unstable life for ourselves.
The story is told with the person who owned a nursing home. He offered Kosher food for those who wanted, so he was not responsible for the single Jewish holdout who demanded non-Kosher food. But when Pesach arrived, he had no choice. Chametz is not only forbidden for eating, but also for any benefit. The nursing home owner had no choice and he had to be mekarev this holdout and to convince them not to eat chametz on Pesach. When he was asked how he managed the impossible, his answer was, “I had no choice, I needed to be mekarev him, or I lose my entire business.”
We have no choice with the Palestinians. We cannot blame them, we need to find a way to buy their hearts, we need to find a way to change their opinion of us.
I know this is uncomfortable for us to consider, but the general view of Arabs and Palestinians in Israel is of extreme zilzul. They are looked at as stupid, as peasants of the lower class, as violent degenerates and as irredeemable terrorists. When a product of this culture has a gun, an IDF uniform, and the state’s power behind him, he can cause extreme damage. If there were any Palestinians who were more interested in personal advancement and profits over revenge, murder, and evil, they were quickly disabused when arbitrary rules disallowed them from chasing their dreams. When a person has invested his life in his olive orchard is prevented from harvesting his olives through administrative rules that he cannot appeal, his only alternative is anger, revenge dreams, and educating his children to degeneracy.
Yes, the Israelis have rules, and perhaps many of them keep those rules when interacting with Palestinians. They may not shoot them at will, they may not torture them. But you can’t legislate respect. Are they treated with respect at all? I just heard a journalist on NPR describing a story she experienced when interviewing a Palestinian farmer about his olive trees that he was prevented from harvesting. Nobody accused him of a crime, yet he was blindfolded, taken to an interrogation room, and unequivocally told that he had no way of reaching his trees. He had committed no crime, nobody even claimed that there was anything wrong with him. But he was blindfolded! Can you imagine being blindfolded by strangers and losing your autonomy that way? Every Palestinian has a story of being mistreated that way, is it any wonder that they aren’t ready to sing kumbaya with the Israelis?
This is akin to the African-American community in America, where institutional racism in many areas makes a life of crime the default for most children. Stop-and-frisk policies, high bail for mere suspicions, and low-level schooling, all serve to convince the youth that their future is only in running drugs, because nobody will help them out of there. Watch some episodes of ‘The Wire’ for more information.
Have the Israelis ever tried treating individual Palestinians with respect? Have rank-and-file Palestinians ever had a connection with an Israeli official without the Palestinian ending up humiliated and degraded? Have Israelis invested anything into creating a progressive atmosphere in the Palestinian territories? Is any respect shown for a business/technological initiative that emerges from the Palestinians? Why should they not choose to export their only successful product – terrorism?
Much noise has been made about UNRWA’s schools and their curriculum. Have the Israelis designed an alternative curriculum with funding for schools that teach it? Is there any benefit for an individual Palestinian to pursue peace, train his children to choose love over blood, and attempt to bridge their differences?
Passing blame is easy. Taking responsibility is hard.
You can call this post ‘blaming the victim’, you can call it ‘exonerating Hamas’. You can label it as evil as you want, the results are yours to eat and digest.
I don't feel bad for Palestinians, I don't care how they got into this situation.
I feel bad for my fellow Jews, who are suffering from terrorism and an existential enemy at their doorstep. My fellow Jews need to find a way to deal with the Palestinians, because my fellow Jews need to live.
They believe we have no right to rule the land and it's an insult to their religion that non-believers are governing and will do anything to bring that down. What should we do? convert?
As much as people complain about Rabbi Slifkin taking on the Chareidim, it's unreal what damage left-wing, self-hating Jews are capable of. The Chareidim can be considered tazdikkim gmurim by comparison.
Can you explain how this analysis applies to Gaza? Isn't it the case that most Gazans would have little, if any, interactions with settlers or Israeli security forces, or Israelis at all, except during wars/military operations (of which there have indeed been several since the disengagement)? Obviously the military blockade and recurrent military conflict is unpleasant for the inhabitants of Gaza, but that seems to be a different issue than the one you have raised.
Try and find Palestinian literature. Not news or opinion, but literature. Novels, poetry and such like. You will see how they live and how they feel under the Israelis. There were many interactions, and all include a feeling of degradation and subjugation. Good behavior was never rewarded, and suspicion underlay every move of theirs in a way that made them feel that the only answer was to fight back.
They are, right now, evil terrorists who hack people into pieces and enjoy raping Jews. But it is precisely for that reason that Israel needs to find a solution.
Netanyahu is the same with Iran. He runs around the world telling everyone how bad Iran is, without offering the slightest solution. It looks like he is waiting for Iran to do something bad so that he can say 'I told you so', instead of really trying to prevent them.
OK, I got where your holding. You sound like you did your political science degree in Berkeley. There's an opening for a position to teach theoretical political science of the theoretical middle east on a theoretical level.
"I know this is uncomfortable for us to consider, but the general view of Arabs and Palestinians in Israel is of extreme zilzul. They are looked at as stupid"
I agree with the general tenor of this comment, but the fact is that the average Palestinian IQ is 83 or thereabouts, which is dumb. Bell curves being what they are, some Palestinians are smart, though a large proportion of these emigrated already, but as a population they are not. Hence while the median Israeli approach to dealing with this problem is not realistic or humane, neither is yours.
I would maybe have agreed with you 20 years ago when we gave Gaza to the "Palestinians". But since then, they have been totally indoctrinated via their schooling to not only hate all Jews but to want to kill all Jews. It's now in their blood. There have been a number of instances of Jews hiring Gazans to work for them and then, after many years, they were rewarded with a knife in the back. And just so you should know, the Koran permits lying to all infidals.
Sorry, I know you mean well. But you are unfortunately very naive.
We knew about the schooling problem for fifty years, why has no attempt been made to solve it? We have constantly been reading in the news about UNRWA schools being terrorist indoctrination centers, yet the Israelis never did a thing about it. They merely used it to show how bad the 'other guy' is.
"We have constantly been reading in the news about UNRWA schools being terrorist indoctrination centers, yet the Israelis never did a thing about it."
What would you have had them do about it? In general, I'm sympathetic to a lot of the points you make, just not sympathetic enough to want my relatives who live in Israel be slaughtered for it. The middle east isn't Scandinavia.
Have they created an alternative schooling system? Another set of text books that a peace wishing Palestinian could want to use?
They could prioritize work permits to graduates of these schools.
Nothing I suggested places your relatives in the slightest danger. Treating people with respect does not place anyone in danger. Rewarding good behavior does not place anyone in danger.
That's not the issue. They need a different curriculum? Make them an offer that the U.N. will fund such a thing, or better yet, adopt one from other Arab countries . Let's see them take it.
Oh, we also need non-anti-Semite teachers too. Any Jews wanna go volunteer?? It's safe isn't it?
You're claiming, with no evidence, that there isn't even a tiny minority in the Palestinian world that sincerely just wants peace and quiet. Because there is no need to win an election here. All they need is to find teachers from that minority.
For the right price, that minority should be able to be found.
Darren Klugman, suspended Hopkins doc, tipped his hand: Only a frum refers to God as "G-dash-d." He also replied to a post suggesting that Israel's bombardment of Gaza was 'large scale slaughter,' which could displace Palestinians with the word 'G-d willing.'
Two questions as a non-Israeli attempting to fully understand the Israeli perspective:
1. “The vast majority of Israelis are willing to make territorial compromise.” What is meant by territorial compromise? Giving up sovereignty over all settlements in the West Bank? Territory that once belonged to exiled Palestinians (including in places like Haifa and Jaffa)? I think that talking vaguely about territorial compromise, without acknowledging is considered a meaningful compromise by the other side, is worthless. Isn’t it the equivalent of Palestinians saying they support territorial compromise, whilst having in mind sovereignty over Lod, Ramle, Hebron, Jaffa, Haifa, certain neighbourhoods in TLV and more – an obviously untenable basis for a two-state solution?
2. “Nobody seems to care remotely as much about the millions of civilians killed in other countries.” I would counter that whilst civilian casualties in other conflicts are tragic, and often greater in magnitude, there is little we can do about them. An example is the expulsion of Afghans from Pakistan mentioned in the comments. In contrast, those of us who live in the West, particularly in the US certainly have an increased obligation to protest perceived casualties that we are involved in, directly or indirectly, or can step in to stop. For example, President Biden did not give a speech or send military support to Pakistan. He did however do that for Israel. Does it therefore not make sense that people in the US should chose to focus more on the actions of Israel than the actions of Pakistan?
2. There were many, many civilians killed as a result of US wars. In addition, with other conflicts, even if the government is not involved, they can often take steps to help. Or consider this very conflict: Nobody is upset about the Gazans that are killed by Hamas!
It's a damn shame that this has to be said. All those 'antizionists' (read: anti-semites) really show their true colors when no words/protest/political 'activism'/literal murder (BDE to Mr. Kessler) has been done for those afghanis brutally expelled from turkey last week. It's probably because there weren't so many right? Only something like 1.7 million people, not even that many. Am Yisroel Chai, all this is doing is showing us who we can and can't trust once these pogroms come to the US. And they will, given the current atmosphere.
Ruth, you've made an excellent point about the global silence after those Afghan refugees were expelled. However, note that they were expelled from Pakistan, not Turkey.
As Moshe Fender has pointed out, you haven't got your hasbara soundbite right, but even if you had whatabouterry isn't going to cut it this time. Over 10,000 Gazans are dead, it's going to be around 50,000 by the time this is up. Of course, bigger wars have happened, but no bigger war is happening right now.
There is only one way to defend the war on Gaza: it is a war by a civilized country against savages. I'm not a Zionist, but I'm quite comfortable taking Israel's side against Palestinians. However, that's because if it was any civilized nation vs. any savage nation I would do the same. However, 90% of Jews would take the side of the savages, and hence they are rightly condemned by the world as murderers, according to their own moral standards.
"90% of Jews would take the side of the savages" what makes you say this?
Here's a simple test. There was a a country called South Africa that was a world leader in scientific innovation (performing the world's first heart transplant) and generally maintained a first world culture. The world demanded that it hand over the keys to bantus (who aren't even indigenous to South Africa, but immigrated over the past 500 years) and, sure enough, the bantus stripped the place bare, turned it into a wasteland of violence and squalor, and it's about to collapse into outright starvation.
In this case, 90% of Jews taking the side of barbarism against civilization might actually be a conservative estimate. Of course, South Africa was in many ways brutal and unjust to the bantu population, and was forced to do increasingly awful things to survive, but, then, so is Israel.
Suppose I understand correctly, you're saying that the same people who were against apartheid in South Africa nevertheless support Israel vs Palestinians. And this, in your opinion, is hypocrisy. The reality is that there are many important distinctions between the Palestinians and the Bantus, and it is not at all hypocritical to have supported the end of apartheid in SA while supporting Israel.
Yes there are differences, for example:
(1) Arabs have a better track record of self governance than bantus (albeit pretty crummy).
(2) Palestinians are more indigenous to Eretz Yisrael than bantus are to South Africa
(3) South African Bantu are more violent that Palestinians, having invented the appalling techniques of killing known as 'necklacing', and engaging in sadistic murders of Boer farmers on a literally daily basis that simply beggar belief and make the Shemini Atzeret massacre look tame.
There are probably some differences that point in the other direction. But the bottom line is you can't justify one without justifying the other.
https://ishayirashashem.substack.com/p/im-jewish-so-maybe-you-hate-me-2
This is dedicated to my cousin, died on October 7th, and really wanted peace. I hope it helps people process anti-semitism. Would love feedback
Correction on your point number one: Israel's fundamental goal is that it is a spiritually holy place that was given to us by God. Hashem did not tell Avraham to go there so he could escape persecution. That "rationalism" ignores basic concepts of Judaism because it can not sufficiently measure, explain or understand spirituality and holiness, is one of its major problems.
He was writing about the modern state of Israel, not why Hashem promised it to Avraham
He was writing about the secular rationale behind the modern state of Israel, not the religious one.
Right, and Israel isn't a religious state like the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Rabbi Slifkin, you have a typo. Search for "rockets rinto towns".
People are generally quite stupid. The press says the world is flat, then many will believe it.
Israel allows the foreign press to come here and report about the war, even when harshly criticising the military and the state in itself. So people see that on TV
Try to go report to any Arab country criticising their military and country, you will last the same an ice cube lasts in Teheran on a summer day.
But this requires getting information by several different channels and being able to make the effort to critically asses what happens around the world.
Result: Israel, certainly not a perfect place, is regarded as the cause of all evil in the middle east and beyond. Israel, the only country where minorities, even hostile ones, grow and have their rights respected, sometimes to the detriment of the majority (read prayer rights of Jews on Har Habaiyt). The only place where Christianity is not being obliterated and where Arabs have higher standards of life, including those living under PA occupation.
Those people should ask themselves what would happen if tomorrow, all Israeli Jews and let's be generous, all Jews in the world, would leave the planet and establish the first mega-miniyan in Mars. Would the Syrian government stop killing its own citizens? Would Lebanese Christians and Muslims stop their murderous hatred towards each other? Would women in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq and so on decide on their own if they want to cover their head, without the risk of being arrested or worse? Would Sunni and Shia stop butchering each other in Yemen, Iraq, and all these other tourist destinations? Would all Arab autocracies just go home and stop oppressing their people?
If anyone replies yes to any of the above, then they are brainless and/or full of hatred.
And yet, it seems the Israel is somehow guilty for the shortcomings of everyone around us. Is it possible that Arab money has an influence on the press?
"...what would happen if tomorrow, all Israeli Jews and let's be generous, all Jews in the world, would leave the planet..."
There was actually a science fiction book written with the above theme whereby the whole country of Israel left the planet Earth. I cannot recall the author's name; he lives (lived?) in Maine, as I recall. I also don't recall much of the story. But maybe that needs to be our future. Looks to me like the Holocaust is on its way back again. So much for "never again".
I think it was called "diaspora". It wasn't very good. I only got through around a quarter of it
Hmmm. Doesn't sound familiar but it's been a while. I met the author at some function in Maine (while we were living there). He was the only frum guy in the town he was living in. Somewhere I have his book (I think).
Very bad meme that plays into Palestinian propaganda. The meme should read Palestinians NOT Hamas. They are one and the same. There are no civilians left in Gaza.
Noncombatants, even if they hate Jews, are still civilians
They all harbor terrorists which make them complicit in the terror.
Isn’t life convenient when we can control both sides of the narrative?
This list absolves the Israelis of any responsibility towards their own future, and allows them to continue their untenable march to the abyss.
The situation today cannot continue. The Palestinians cannot continue having children and searching for a life for themselves while we pat ourselves on the back with slogans like ‘the most moral army on earth’. They are not disappearing, nobody is coming to beam them back their home planet. Absent a plan for the future, we will continue to see pogroms, massacres, terrorist attacks, and an unstable life for ourselves.
The story is told with the person who owned a nursing home. He offered Kosher food for those who wanted, so he was not responsible for the single Jewish holdout who demanded non-Kosher food. But when Pesach arrived, he had no choice. Chametz is not only forbidden for eating, but also for any benefit. The nursing home owner had no choice and he had to be mekarev this holdout and to convince them not to eat chametz on Pesach. When he was asked how he managed the impossible, his answer was, “I had no choice, I needed to be mekarev him, or I lose my entire business.”
We have no choice with the Palestinians. We cannot blame them, we need to find a way to buy their hearts, we need to find a way to change their opinion of us.
I know this is uncomfortable for us to consider, but the general view of Arabs and Palestinians in Israel is of extreme zilzul. They are looked at as stupid, as peasants of the lower class, as violent degenerates and as irredeemable terrorists. When a product of this culture has a gun, an IDF uniform, and the state’s power behind him, he can cause extreme damage. If there were any Palestinians who were more interested in personal advancement and profits over revenge, murder, and evil, they were quickly disabused when arbitrary rules disallowed them from chasing their dreams. When a person has invested his life in his olive orchard is prevented from harvesting his olives through administrative rules that he cannot appeal, his only alternative is anger, revenge dreams, and educating his children to degeneracy.
Yes, the Israelis have rules, and perhaps many of them keep those rules when interacting with Palestinians. They may not shoot them at will, they may not torture them. But you can’t legislate respect. Are they treated with respect at all? I just heard a journalist on NPR describing a story she experienced when interviewing a Palestinian farmer about his olive trees that he was prevented from harvesting. Nobody accused him of a crime, yet he was blindfolded, taken to an interrogation room, and unequivocally told that he had no way of reaching his trees. He had committed no crime, nobody even claimed that there was anything wrong with him. But he was blindfolded! Can you imagine being blindfolded by strangers and losing your autonomy that way? Every Palestinian has a story of being mistreated that way, is it any wonder that they aren’t ready to sing kumbaya with the Israelis?
This is akin to the African-American community in America, where institutional racism in many areas makes a life of crime the default for most children. Stop-and-frisk policies, high bail for mere suspicions, and low-level schooling, all serve to convince the youth that their future is only in running drugs, because nobody will help them out of there. Watch some episodes of ‘The Wire’ for more information.
Have the Israelis ever tried treating individual Palestinians with respect? Have rank-and-file Palestinians ever had a connection with an Israeli official without the Palestinian ending up humiliated and degraded? Have Israelis invested anything into creating a progressive atmosphere in the Palestinian territories? Is any respect shown for a business/technological initiative that emerges from the Palestinians? Why should they not choose to export their only successful product – terrorism?
Much noise has been made about UNRWA’s schools and their curriculum. Have the Israelis designed an alternative curriculum with funding for schools that teach it? Is there any benefit for an individual Palestinian to pursue peace, train his children to choose love over blood, and attempt to bridge their differences?
Passing blame is easy. Taking responsibility is hard.
You can call this post ‘blaming the victim’, you can call it ‘exonerating Hamas’. You can label it as evil as you want, the results are yours to eat and digest.
- if npr is your source of news...that tells me everything i need to know about your views.
- its very nice to point out that the Palestinians are not going anywhere....so therfore we should do what exactly?!
Don't point out problems without offering solutions.
I feel bad for the Palestinians but they are reaping what they sowed...they elected hamas and continue to support them.
I don't feel bad for Palestinians, I don't care how they got into this situation.
I feel bad for my fellow Jews, who are suffering from terrorism and an existential enemy at their doorstep. My fellow Jews need to find a way to deal with the Palestinians, because my fellow Jews need to live.
Who says it is possible to deal with them?
They believe we have no right to rule the land and it's an insult to their religion that non-believers are governing and will do anything to bring that down. What should we do? convert?
Ok, so there is no way to deal with them.
So the right and the left are equally clueless, and we are all just marching to the cliff, certain of failure.
If that's fine with you, good. I care more about my Jewish brothers than that.
I don't think what Bibi is doing will solve the problem, but it may slow it down.
So maybe find the solution for them...all ears...
As much as people complain about Rabbi Slifkin taking on the Chareidim, it's unreal what damage left-wing, self-hating Jews are capable of. The Chareidim can be considered tazdikkim gmurim by comparison.
Can you explain how this analysis applies to Gaza? Isn't it the case that most Gazans would have little, if any, interactions with settlers or Israeli security forces, or Israelis at all, except during wars/military operations (of which there have indeed been several since the disengagement)? Obviously the military blockade and recurrent military conflict is unpleasant for the inhabitants of Gaza, but that seems to be a different issue than the one you have raised.
In general, the less occupied Palestinians are, the more they hate Israel.
Try and find Palestinian literature. Not news or opinion, but literature. Novels, poetry and such like. You will see how they live and how they feel under the Israelis. There were many interactions, and all include a feeling of degradation and subjugation. Good behavior was never rewarded, and suspicion underlay every move of theirs in a way that made them feel that the only answer was to fight back.
They are, right now, evil terrorists who hack people into pieces and enjoy raping Jews. But it is precisely for that reason that Israel needs to find a solution.
Netanyahu is the same with Iran. He runs around the world telling everyone how bad Iran is, without offering the slightest solution. It looks like he is waiting for Iran to do something bad so that he can say 'I told you so', instead of really trying to prevent them.
"He runs around the world telling everyone how bad Iran is, without offering the slightest solution. "
Okay, so tell us already. What's the solution?
I don't know what the solution with Iran is, I do know that Bibi Netanyahu does not want anyone to find one.
I had no problem with the Iran deal of Obama's, but thanks to Trump, Iran was permitted to enrich more uranium.
OK, I got where your holding. You sound like you did your political science degree in Berkeley. There's an opening for a position to teach theoretical political science of the theoretical middle east on a theoretical level.
"I know this is uncomfortable for us to consider, but the general view of Arabs and Palestinians in Israel is of extreme zilzul. They are looked at as stupid"
I agree with the general tenor of this comment, but the fact is that the average Palestinian IQ is 83 or thereabouts, which is dumb. Bell curves being what they are, some Palestinians are smart, though a large proportion of these emigrated already, but as a population they are not. Hence while the median Israeli approach to dealing with this problem is not realistic or humane, neither is yours.
you should listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFBm8nQ2aBo&t=33s&pp=ygUKc2FtIGhhcnJpcw%3D%3D
not a huge sam harris fan but he speaks really well on this topic
I would maybe have agreed with you 20 years ago when we gave Gaza to the "Palestinians". But since then, they have been totally indoctrinated via their schooling to not only hate all Jews but to want to kill all Jews. It's now in their blood. There have been a number of instances of Jews hiring Gazans to work for them and then, after many years, they were rewarded with a knife in the back. And just so you should know, the Koran permits lying to all infidals.
Sorry, I know you mean well. But you are unfortunately very naive.
We knew about the schooling problem for fifty years, why has no attempt been made to solve it? We have constantly been reading in the news about UNRWA schools being terrorist indoctrination centers, yet the Israelis never did a thing about it. They merely used it to show how bad the 'other guy' is.
"We have constantly been reading in the news about UNRWA schools being terrorist indoctrination centers, yet the Israelis never did a thing about it."
What would you have had them do about it? In general, I'm sympathetic to a lot of the points you make, just not sympathetic enough to want my relatives who live in Israel be slaughtered for it. The middle east isn't Scandinavia.
Have they created an alternative schooling system? Another set of text books that a peace wishing Palestinian could want to use?
They could prioritize work permits to graduates of these schools.
Nothing I suggested places your relatives in the slightest danger. Treating people with respect does not place anyone in danger. Rewarding good behavior does not place anyone in danger.
That's not the issue. They need a different curriculum? Make them an offer that the U.N. will fund such a thing, or better yet, adopt one from other Arab countries . Let's see them take it.
Oh, we also need non-anti-Semite teachers too. Any Jews wanna go volunteer?? It's safe isn't it?
You're claiming, with no evidence, that there isn't even a tiny minority in the Palestinian world that sincerely just wants peace and quiet. Because there is no need to win an election here. All they need is to find teachers from that minority.
For the right price, that minority should be able to be found.
Darren Klugman, suspended Hopkins doc, tipped his hand: Only a frum refers to God as "G-dash-d." He also replied to a post suggesting that Israel's bombardment of Gaza was 'large scale slaughter,' which could displace Palestinians with the word 'G-d willing.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12760271/Jewish-pediatrician-Darren-Klugman-suspended-Johns-Hopkins-Palestine-posts.html
Thanks for this post, Rabbi Slifkin.
Two questions as a non-Israeli attempting to fully understand the Israeli perspective:
1. “The vast majority of Israelis are willing to make territorial compromise.” What is meant by territorial compromise? Giving up sovereignty over all settlements in the West Bank? Territory that once belonged to exiled Palestinians (including in places like Haifa and Jaffa)? I think that talking vaguely about territorial compromise, without acknowledging is considered a meaningful compromise by the other side, is worthless. Isn’t it the equivalent of Palestinians saying they support territorial compromise, whilst having in mind sovereignty over Lod, Ramle, Hebron, Jaffa, Haifa, certain neighbourhoods in TLV and more – an obviously untenable basis for a two-state solution?
2. “Nobody seems to care remotely as much about the millions of civilians killed in other countries.” I would counter that whilst civilian casualties in other conflicts are tragic, and often greater in magnitude, there is little we can do about them. An example is the expulsion of Afghans from Pakistan mentioned in the comments. In contrast, those of us who live in the West, particularly in the US certainly have an increased obligation to protest perceived casualties that we are involved in, directly or indirectly, or can step in to stop. For example, President Biden did not give a speech or send military support to Pakistan. He did however do that for Israel. Does it therefore not make sense that people in the US should chose to focus more on the actions of Israel than the actions of Pakistan?
I’d appreciate if you let me know your thoughts.
1. Most of the West Bank.
2. There were many, many civilians killed as a result of US wars. In addition, with other conflicts, even if the government is not involved, they can often take steps to help. Or consider this very conflict: Nobody is upset about the Gazans that are killed by Hamas!