I mostly agree with much of what you said. There is a crucial point that if people are being insensitive to each other, which often comes from personal devotion to their religion, that there is something terribly amiss. There needs to be emphasis on the community coming together.
That being said, there are two points to be made:
1. "Rabbi Yona Metzger no doubt sincerely believed that he was serving Hashem, even as he engaged in bribery, corruption, threatening others, and sexual harassment." What?? That was a really silly thing to say. I know very little about Yona Metzger but he has nothing to do with your point. Even if religious devotion can lead to selfishness, if we find bribery and corruption like you describe, that is *not* because of the religion, that is unequivocally *despite* it. Your point can be a really great point in more mild terms, such as how the focus on self improvement and personal connection to God can lead a person to be more selfish, but someone who is outwardly hurting others, that has nothing to do with the religion; it is a flaw of the man alone. (And to bring in Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל - he obviously didn't know of these private matters or he would never had stood for them.) You took things unnecessarily far, and it kind of killed your whole message (especially when your whole point was to be less divisive).
2. More importantly - Judaism is indeed meant to improve people and better society - but not in a vacuum! We are supposed to - as a nation, as a whole - become better and more wholesome. But who are these people who are supposed to be bettering themsleves? We, the nation of Hashem. The nation which stands for HKBH and His will. The nation that devotes themselves to His Torah and Avoda. The people who say Shema and accept to follow God's will and commandments with every fiber of the their beings. In that context, we are supposed to do this *as a nation* and become better people and a better society. This context is very important. Religion can become a self promoting personal mission while it is supposed to be a collective undertaking. This public, national function then breeds kindness to the widows, aiding the wronged and learning to do good.
Simply being collectively 'good' without the religious, Godly mission behind it is just icing without the cake.
*What is Tisha B'Av actually about?* - It is the day that we devote to appreciating the loss of HKBH from our lives and how we *as a nation - together* work on our collective mission, bringing Him back into this dark, atheistic world. As such, we should all be zoche *together* to see HKBH join us here as we serve Him as a joined nation in the beis hamikdash, the finest community to be.
"if we find bribery and corruption like you describe, that is *not* because of the religion, that is unequivocally *despite* it." It's not that it happens *because* of religion. It's that religion (sometimes) enables people to get away with such things and still believe themselves to be holy.
"And to bring in Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל - he obviously didn't know of these private matters or he would never had stood for them." Actually, he totally did know, and expressly admitted it. Click on the link in the post.
"It is the day that we devote to appreciating the loss of HKBH from our lives and how we *as a nation - together* work on our collective mission, bringing Him back into this dark, atheistic world." I have a suggestion. Go through Yeshaya and Yirmiyah and Eicha and the kinnos, and count exactly what percentage of the sentences talk about the things you mention, versus the human tragedy and the things I discuss.
RNS - I read your blog often and comment occasionally. Today, I am pained reading both the original posting as well as the comments.
Your main point in the post (at least as far as I understand it) that the focus and message of Tisha B’Av (per Yeshaya) is that we need to focus more on taking care of the orphan and the widow etc; and worry less about davening and playing at being more holy than thou is right on.
But then I read your comments about R. Elyashiv, and your own Nevuah about “Lashon Harah! badmouthing Gedolim” (I’m almost amazed that you were able to predict that).
And I read Dovid-TM bemoan that he doesn’t think he should even try to defend R. Elyashiv because doing so might be asur and might invite further negative feelings / comments about him.
I read later in comments Zichron Dvarim refers to R. Goren and all the chief rabbis as lightweights (I can only presume he includes Chacham Ovadia Yosef who served at the same time as R. Goren)
And I read vitriol and venomous back and forth among so many here. And I need to pinch myself and remind myself that these are all Jewish people who care enough to read and comment on a Rabbi’s blog (as well as that rabbi himself). And we are all doing this during the week of Tisha B’av. And I am pained by that.
Yes we can all point fingers at each other - and apparently we all do that very well. (Even I, here, mentioned 3 others just now). Each of us knows much better than our neighbor. And of course we all have an obligation to make the world better, so why shouldn’t we call out bad behavior wherever we see it? After all, aren’t we all areivim zeh La’zeh?
Yesterday, I was speaking with my wife about what our leaders should do to improve things. I mentioned that perhaps we’d be better off heeding the words of the great artist Michael Jackson and “look at the man in the mirror and ask him to change his ways.”
I was talking about the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbis, who follow a different path. Goren was not a lightweight, he convinced people he knew what he was talking about and he had a great plan for his job. However, he was not worthy of it, he did not have the necessary integrity and he was not the scholar he thought he was.
Since his days, the Gedolei Yisroel made sure that all Ashkenazi Chief Rabbis should be lightweights, not people with great ambition, understanding, or leadership skills. People who would smile at public events, issue official statements, and generally know their place. Like we had in Europe.
Yes, of course I missed the point. The point is that I should not have named you by name. The point is that we all have different views, but that shouldn’t divide us. The point is that we are a tiny minority on this planet and we make our communities even smaller. But more important than the fact that I missed the point is that I didn’t explain myself clearly - my comment was not about whether or not you think or said R.
Goren is a lightweight. - rather my comment was about Tisha b’av being 48 hours away and we’re arguing about missing the point.
They say “Nero Fiddled while Rome burned”. We’re about to re-live the Beit HaMikdash burning, will we fiddle or do something about it? Maybe we should be firemen!
But beware, things aren’t always as simple as they seem - In Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury’s “Firemen” lit fires to burn books instead of putting them out. And according the “History of Firefighting” on firefighterfoundation.org.uk , “In AD 60 Emperor Nero formed a group of firefighters called the Vigiles to combat fires using water buckets and pumps.” So labels and famous quotes and whatever aside - the point is let’s try to douse some fires instead pouring gasoline all over them.
1. With religion they believe themselves to be holy. And without religion they would do these things and not feel holy. And they would probably consider themselves good people for other reasons. This has nothing to do with anything. Your general point was great, your example was lousy, and unnecessarily divisive.
2. Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל obviously didn't feel there was enough evidence to substantiate the claim. We have rules about when to believe, and at that point the evidence wasn't clear yet. The הלכות of לשון הרע can lead to problems, but they are real and important. And if they lead to issues the answer is not to abandon HKBH's הלכות because of a question. The question is how to deal with the issues in that context.
3. Here's my suggestion back. Read the Psukim along with our mesorah, such as our favorite Maimonides. See his famous Perek in the Moreh about Korbanos 3:32. Read שמע. Read about the עקידה and how Hashem's will and following Him are what matters. Read what כלל ישראל are about from beginning to end. And then read ישעיה, ירמיה and איכה accordingly.
One quick example: איכה ישבה בדד העיר רבתי עם רבתי בגויים וכו, read with the basic understanding of Yiddishkeit, we are not just sad that we lost our power. What is 'our power' for anyways? - BUT the city which was full of God's glory, and we, who stand for Him were a powerful nation -when we are down, He is down. That is a total tragedy because now He is no longer being represented to the world. That's why we are sad. We have nothing as a nation besides for this very fact - that we stand for Him. והעיר אשר נקרא שמך עליך, למענך אלהי כי שמך נקרא על עירך ועל עמך. His name is called on His city and on His people. We represent Him and our misery is His and our downfall in this world is His. That is the underpinning of Judaism and the underpinning of the Churban. The entire ישעיה ירמיה ואיכה is only about this. I can't help you if you missed the memo. Not to compare חלילה, but so did the Christians when reading הושע.
EDIT - Also, the amount of פסוקים discussing עבודה זרה and that we should focus more on Him are a huge percentage of these ישעיה and ירמיה...
"Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל obviously didn't feel there was enough evidence to substantiate the claim."
You're putting thoughts into R' Elyashiv's mind. You don't know what he was thinking.
In any case, we'd expect a chief rabbi to be a substantial Torah scholar. That Metzger was not, was itself an obvious disqualification. Would you argue that "Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל obviously didn't feel" that Metzger was a rabbinic lightweight?
That a chief rabbi could be a lightweight and be sent to jail was a massive failure of דעת תורה.
You expect a Chief Rabbi to be a substantial scholar. Many Gedolei Yisroel felt differently. Not just Rav Elyashiv, back in Europe it was accepted that a government Rav serves us best if he is an am ha'aretz. Indeed, Reb Chaim Ozer told Reb Chaim Brisker that he arranged that the government Rav in Vilna should be a Yeshiva graduate, and Reb Chaim warned him that he would cause trouble. As we know happened.
Goren was someone who fooled some of the world that he was a Talmid Chacham. He caused no end of problems for Torah, as he sold Halacha off for his own advancement. Since then, Gedolei Yisroel have held that the lighter the weight, the better the Chief Rabbi.
You may disagree, although the prudent layman should realize that a serious responsible person, who actually has the weight of the responsibility on his shoulders, should have his opinion taken with a greater weight than that of a throwaway account on the internet.
But no, lightweight is not a disqualification, it is the main qualification. As we saw before and after Metzger.
To add to my comment above or below from July 24, the zionist--non-zionist divide is like this. Non-zionists have a general attitiude to the Israeli gov't similar to their attitude to the Lithuanian gov't. Rabbis appointed by those gov'ts are suspected of having the gov't's interest in mind even at the expense of Judaism, Judaism being something whose best interests the gov't doesn't have in mind.
Whereas the zionist attitude is that the Israeli gov't is an incredible dream come true--the opposite of the Lithuanian gov't. We have a positive attitude to effectively whatever the Israeli gov't wants and as expressed by its appointed rabbis. Of course, then, the rabbis should be admired and respected as much as possible
"I'm not sure why you think ארץ יראל should be treated the same as Lithuania."
This is an old non-zionist constant that is a thorn in the side of zionists. Mentioned by Rav Svei in 1982 in his Machaah for Rav Shach who criticized Begin's annexation of the Golan.
I wasn't expressing my opinion that EY is like Lithuania, I was expressing that of Gedolei Yisroel. It does make some kind of sense to me, after seeing what Goren did, and attempted to do, to Halacha. And there are many people who remember him when he was young. Goren was the hotshot who tried to impress people, but only succeeded with the lightweights. The Chazon Ish famously said about him, "He can't learn too well, but we will still suffer from him one day."
No, Metzger did not mess up psak Halacha. He may have done personal aveiros, but the dangers of an unfettered Chief Rabbinate did not occur in his times. He was a smiley face, whose job was to attend events. Great. Keep it up.
The issue isn't what I think of him. Those in charge realized at the time that the candidates for Chief Rabbi must always be lightweights so they do not have the inclination to mess with the Torah.
This is all a side point anyways, and I'm not sure why you want to pick this fight. But as a good Torah Jew does, when a selfless תלמיד חכם who exemplifies and cares of nothing other than HKBH's Torah does something, we are to assume he was following halacha. If a failure happened, that is not failure of the person following the הלכה, rather a 'failure' of הלכה itself. That is not a failure of so called 'דעת תורה' that, if a failure, is a 'failure' of the תורה (I shudder to pen such sentences).
I don't know what Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל was thinking. What I do know is that he was no נביא. But to him Metzger had a חזקת כשרות and there are clear rules of when to go with the rumors (which follow any politician). As a halacha follower he was מחוייב to go with the חזקת כשרות not to be עובר the איסור חמור מאד של לשון הרע God forbid. That is a perfectly reasonable scenario. There may have been others.
Point is, I don't know what I would've done given that situation; probably Reb Elyashiv knew it could lead to חילול כבוד שמים ר"ל, but for him, there are rules when following הלכה and that includes not believing unsubstantiated rumors. If there is a failure down the line, that's in HKBH's hands.
It's probably אסור to continue this conversation - defending Reb Elyashiv to some in this crowd is like praising someone in front a rival, or simply in front of a crowd which is אבק לשון הרע - (see 'חפץ חיים פ"ט ה"א וב) which will lead to worse ביזוי ת"ח and לשון הרע, so I leave it at that.
It wasn't just vague rumors about Metzger. It was very specific accusations which came before a rabbinic court and were found credible, and this was relayed to Rav Elyashiv. And Rav Elyashiv said "Af al pi ken." He didn't think that they were false; he felt that nevertheless it's more important to have a charedi puppet in this role. As someone on this very thread defended.
Reb Dovid, are you a גלגול of גדליה בן אחיקם? Lashon Hara should never be part of the conversation when discussing major issues like this.
חזקת כשרות certainly is releveant, as is the fact that Rav Elyashiv was not a *hermit* but rather an experienced dayan who well understoood the concept of אם יש לו אויבים אויבים הוא דמפקי לי' לקלא, especially in regards to such a sensitive position where it is self uderstood who the אויבים are.
Sorry if I came off too confident. I don't know what he was thinking exactly, but I do know that he was following Halacha, and my theory is probably a close to truth guess.
You sort of miss the point. Isn't the doctrine of da'as torah that rabbonim cannot make mistakes, due to the divine wisdom that is bestowed upon them? Time and again, we see (well, some see, the chareidi press censors a lot of it for their congregants so they 'tacke' don't see) that simply is not the case. You can always reverse justify something to explain retrospectively, but if da'as torah can make mistakes, what is its worth? On that basis, da'as torah should stick to kitchen shailos, no?
2. This ridiculous black and white picture comes from the fact that we tell people how amazing they are, and that they are the most important people to follow, and if some people need to think that they are infallible in order to follow them (as teenagers, for example, often do need to think), so be it. But when we grow up and it turns out that it's more nuanced than that, we revise our picture accordingly when we can still hold them in the highest regard despite (well, really *because* of) the fact that they are human.
A lot of people following this blog are arguing against their 2nd year beis midrash picture of Daas Torah.
Exactly test, you're finally getting it. No one thinks they aren't human and no one thinks they are infallible. (Only the Sanhedrin Hagadol had such a power, see Ramban.) Daas Torah is that the rabbonim have their heads on straight and know what is important in life and they usually get it right even when those who follow other hashkafos get it wrong and think they are off. That's what they are there for. To lead spiritually and halachically. To follow Hashem and His Torah and to lead everyone else to do the same. No one thinks they can't make mistakes. We follow them because the are better at following the Torah and will more often be right than any of us.
It's worth a lot, more than anything because if you follow and strive to emulate them you will closer to HKBH. People who don't and spend their time disparaging them instead are being מבטל what's important in life and are מרבה חילול שמים ר"ל, see the famous Rabbeinu Yonah (ג:קמח).
I don't like a lot of the critics, but I'm okay with you. I don't necessarily agree with you, but you may be the closest I've been to agreeing with a Haredi. Case in point, I'm not sure I agree with your version of Judaism here, but you presented it well and I appreciate your POV.
When I started reading todays post from Rabbi Slifkin, I was getting ready to "like" it, until I got halfway through and it was down hill from there. Is there a way to "like" half?
This is probably the dumbest post you've ever written.
"He does not say that we need to learn more Torah... And He does not say that we need to davven with more sincerity; He says that it’s our actions that count.
Now, you might argue that in order for our actions to improve, we need to work on sincerity in prayer. But that’s not what God says. And that’s precisely the point. To quote Rabbi Sacks, and I will emphasize the critical phrase:
What Isaiah saw and said with primal force and devastating clarity is that sometimes (organised) religion is not the solution but itself part of the problem"
You've somehow managed to conflate tefillah and introspection with organized religion. That's just crazy. Is doing chessed somehow *less* related to organized religion?
"Rabbi Yona Metzger no doubt sincerely believed that he was serving Hashem, even as he engaged in bribery, corruption, threatening others, and sexual harassment."
You seem to think that Rabbi Yonah Metzger is indicative of something rotten with 'organized religion.' Okay, maybe in one aspect. He *was* an official employee of the state. Presumably the eidah ha'charedis would agree with your analysis on that point. Really not clear what that has to do with much of anyone else. The average person- charedi, mizrachi, or chiloni barely knows who he even is. You might as well have brought up Katsav's rape, Olmert's criminal convictions, or the murder of Rabin.
Okay, then we get to your fetish "Rav Elyashiv no doubt also sincerely believed that he was serving Hashem when he (successfully) pushed for Metzger to be appointed as Chief Rabbi, even though reports about Metzger’s behavior had reached him." Here we can only wonder what organized religion has to do with anything. R Elyashiv was pretty much a hermit. He gave advice to certain politicians. How that amounts to 'organized religion' any more than 'Rabbi' Gilad Kariv bloviating in a committee hearing isn't clear.
"But let’s look at what Yeshayah actually says (translation taken from Sefaria).
Hear the word of GOD, You chieftains of Sodom; Give ear to our God’s instruction, You folk of Gomorrah!"
What's this got to with me? I don't know anyone from Sodom, let alone chieftains. And I've never been to Gomorrah in my life.
See? 2 can play the same hyper-literal game.
"I can hear it already. “Lashon hara! Badmouthing Gedolim!” "
Helpfully, I just finished rereading Behold a People by Rav Avigdor Miller. His explanation of Yeshaya's words are...well I wouldn't say MORE cogent, because Natan's words are not cogent at all...cogent, period. He even quotes from the same pesukim. And unlike Natan's unhinged (from our mesora) rantings, his words are firmly rooted and sourced in our traditions.
His stinging rebuke was directed primarily at the leadership of the nation, particularly the royal house, less so the kahuna ("organized religion"). In today's terms, that would be the state. The state corrupted the common people then, as it does today.
But today, Natan and his ilk idolize the state. He turns Yeshaya's word around. Instead he bashes long dead private individuals like HaRav Elyashiv (ztz"l) who held zero temporal power, and even low-level functionaries of the state like Rabbi Yona Metzger, instead of the state itself and those who create and regulate all its components.
The הפטרה is supposed to be read by everyone, not just the political leadership. As such, the הפטרה has a message for the "common people", not just the "royal house".
The Radak makes it very clear that he's talking to the leadership and the common people.
אמר לשרים ולעם כי הקצינים הם דומים לקציני סדום ועמרה בעשקם העניים ובהטותם המשפטים והעם גם כן דומה לעם סדום ועמרה במעשיהם הרעים
"from our mesora"
Why don't you protest when the mesora is being denied by that other blog that you comment on?
"who held zero temporal power"
Not true.
" even low-level functionaries of the state like Rabbi Yona Metzger"
Not true.
"the state itself"
UTJ and Shas are the State. Or at least part of it.
Woohoo! Here we go again! Pretty soon only people who agree with me will be commenting and then I'll have that appearance of being a serious intellect like the old days!
Can't wait for the shtikel torah why this banning is any different than the chareidi bannings that our wonderful blogger says lectures in Boca about...
There weren't any conspiracy theories in there. I've had my disagreements with Shimshon, https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism/comment/18132241 but this last comment was pretty banal. We Americans fought a revolution on the theory that the people are sovereign and our elected representatives are merely delegated power by consent of the governed. The other part of his comment is also pretty much a truism. It's literally what we say and mean when we refer to a political party as 'out of power.'
That's a mistake. Even the most dyed-in-the-wool defenders of big government have finally learned the past few years that so-called "conspiracy theories" are often true.
(Not a fan of banning commenter Shimshon, who contributed. Tho I grant the constant use of "retard" had become grating.)
For organized religion substitute ritual without sincerity and indifference to justice,unfairness,manipulation to achieve monetary gain, indifference to economic needs and work in the name of limud Torah,,indifference to the need for basic education to earn a living etc..
That's the Artscroll approach. Which Dr Slifkin criticized.
"indifference to economic needs and work in the name of limud Torah,,indifference to the need for basic education to earn a living"
I get it. You think Charedim are leeches. Which may or may not be true, but has absolutely nothing to do with the haftorah. Not everything has to be shoehorned into your pet peeves.
"I pointed out that sincere people can even become indifferent to the real needs of others on the name of certain ideals."
I don't deny that. That's not what this post was, though. It was some disjointed musing filled with some archaically translated glop (i.e. the *translation* is glop.) which barely held together, and yet somehow climaxed in calling out R Elyashiv (who died a decade ago) for backing R Metzger. Because true religion involves.... something or other. And the *true* message of Yeshayahu is that magical thinking is bad. And what better way of putting those lofty ideals into action than by writing (yet another) cheesy op-ed which conveniently makes the point that the community which banned your books was headed up by someone who distorted the message of Yeshayahu? Or something. I just find the navel gazing https://www.jewishvoicesnj.org/articles/rabbi-sacks-jews-need-to-stop-navel-gazing/ involved in writing such a post abhorrent.
(Give NS credit for this much: He knows an opinion blog like this is only valuable insofar as other people comment and he interacts with them. The interaction creates a community or at least the illusion of it, (i.e., it makes no difference even if its the same dozen people over and over.) Who would bother to read someone else's opinions if he couldn't react with his own, or if there weren't others presenting the other side? Besides, it doesn't hurt NS in the slightest - one can't hope to be a public figure if one cant absorb a few blows from a few anonymous blowhards. And he gets free grist for the mill from the comments, too.)
"Speaking for myself, I employ insults when they're an accurate description. This post is mind-numbingly stupid. I explain why I say that above. There's no way to characterize it more positively while remaining accurate."
He said...she said". You're certainly insult worthy, for thinking you are contributing substance to the discussion when you restate the same OPINIONS in 100 different ways.
Better that you skip the insults. Here's a suggestion, if I may, delete your first response and re-write it articulately. Saying you're wrong, I'm right is also not the best way.
Natan, I haven’t read the other comments yet, but I am sure they will be filled with all manner of pious condemnation, no doubt accompanied by deliberate misinterpretation to make you look as bad as possible.
But personally, I think this is one of your best posts ever. Isaiah was right and so are you. Sometimes organized religion and people obsessed with its formalities ARE part of the problem, especially when they are used to cover up or excuse hypocrisy and corruption.
As the great navi’s report of Hashem's words makes clear, it is an ancient problem and, as you are brave enough to say, it is a problem we haven’t solved and still struggle with.
There are many here who need to heed the words of HKBH:
“Wash yourselves clean; put your evil doings away from My sight. Cease to do evil; learn to do good. Devote yourselves to justice; aid the wronged. Uphold the rights of the orphan; defend the cause of the widow.”
Unfortunately, too many of them are full of pride and mistakenly think His words couldn’t possibly be intended for them. So instead, they will attack you.
Yeah, as mentioned above there are still such suckers out there.
Natan's best post ever, yup. (Well, maybe. The competition ain't too stiff.)
Here's a couple of things for you to chew over, cuz you seem to have fallen for his quackery.
Firstly, have you noticed how Natan basically made up an entire phenomenon to debunk based on a ridiculous focus on an innocent paragraph from artscroll?
Have you EVER heard a three weeks / tisha b'av drasha in the chareidi world? Are you aware that almost every one of them focus on bein adam lechaveiro, interpersonal tzedek, etc?? Oh. So this post is arguing with a wall.... Great post, indeed.
And guess what?? Even drashas like the ones Slifkin derides would not be out of place as an emphasis.
See Nedarim 61a, for example, al mah avda ha'aretz (haftora of tisha b'av itself, by the way. Maybe that trumps the haftora of Shabbos Chazon, for those too shallow minded to maintain two focuses simultaneously). Al shelo barchu baTorah techillah. See Rishonim cited by Beis Yosef siman 46, that this refers to treated Torah as a utilitarian study as opposed the holy (mystical, perhaps?) pursuit of delving into G-d's word.
There's plenty substantiation available for the other ideas that the ignoramus makes fun of this post as well, but I doubt you're interested in them so I'll get on with my life for now.
Yes, Rabbi Slifkin seems to be borrowing the reform jewish tactic of learning hashkafa straight from the bible and prophets while ignoring chazal's teachings and interpretations of the verses. For those who follow rabbinic judaism, there are countless sources that give emphasis to the aspects Rabbi Slifkin is trying to downplay.
"as you are brave enough to say, it is a problem we haven’t solved and still struggle with."
Super brave to hold up the deceased leader of one's former community as an example of perverting religion.
"Unfortunately, too many of them are full of pride and mistakenly think His words couldn’t possibly be intended for them. So instead, they will attack you."
Ah! So THAT'S what it is! I was wondering why I was attacking Dr Slifkin! Are you available to purify my heart for me? I fear I'm too contaminated by empty rituals to do so myself.
The pathetic thing is that his [few remaining] sycophants are probably ignorant enough to fall for it, and those that can articulate how downright stupid the entire premise of this post is are under threat of ban. Oh well, guess the sycophants will remain ignorant.
Speaking for myself, I employ insults when they're an accurate description. This post is mind-numbingly stupid. I explain why I say that above. There's no way to characterize it more positively while remaining accurate.
accurate or not, its simply not a good strategy for engaging in public discourse. you're just shooing yourself in the foot. try to control yourself and maybe you'll be heard out more.
Could be. Though I'm not sure it really makes much difference. Also, FWIW I tend to stick to localized insults. I don't generally refer to people as idiots. I call certain statements idiotic.
It absolutely is a playground. And IM is even more of a playground. At least Konreich and co write analytically and in learned style. Not just a bunch of bizarre mosholim, leitzonus, nitpicking and silly out of context diyukim
It's incorrect to call it a bully tactic. It doesn't resemble bullying in any meaningful way. Not all insults are ipso facto bullying or improper. You need to explain why it's somehow inappropriate, let alone bullying, to comment on a public post in a manner which fully conveys my sentiments toward the post I'm critiquing.
Thanks. Although, a ban might actually be effective at putting an end to my obsessive posting. If you can get me banned over at Irrationalist Modoxism too, I think my sanity might even start to return...
That was because he claimed that his words were being grossly distorted and misrepresented with intention to see them in the worst light possible with no giving of the benefit of the doubt (ironically, he seems to be doing something similar to artscroll here). I think if the posters would have just written in a more calm and less inflammatory tone, he would not have viewed it that way.
You're cute. Right, if the poster had done what basically everybody else did for the previous decade - i.e. let this embittered ignoramus get away with the most ridiculous distortions while at best parrying them as if they are legitimate contributions to the intellectual arena, then he wouldn't have been banned. Because he wouldn't have been effective.
Banning is a convenient resort when your stupidity is being displayed in public, and you have nothing to answer. Best make sure nobody can read it. We've seen this before; funny how this blogger is usually quite righteously indignant about the practice.
Oh yeah, so he says "well you're distorting my words". Uh huh. Nice for him that you take that at face value.
If there are only a few supporters remaining, does that mean that your job is done now and you can take your ball and go home? Who are you arguing with?
Reb Artscroll: We must use our mourning as a way of initiating an examination of our present-day feelings, thoughts and deeds.
Natan's Peirush: In summary, the message of Yeshayah is that we have to davven with more sincerity, fill ourselves with more knowledge of Torah, and become closer to Hashem.
I agree with your post, but it would be much effective and sincere if you included Rabbis from your own general camp (the RZ) such as Rabbi Druckman’s direct enablement of Rabbi Kopolevitch and Rabbi Elon in their abuse. You might also include well Rabbi Aviner and Rabbi Tau and their supporters. This has nothing to do with Charedism and has everything to do with Rabbis and people in power across the spectrum preferring their own comfort and prerogative to doing their job to protect members of their community.
I don't know who Reb Mendel Hirsh is, but the pessukim in Yeshaya were not written as a lament, they were a warning before the Churban, telling everyone to clean up their acts.
Leaders should act with justice, the general public should make sure that their actions are attached to thought and feeling, not rote, and Talmidei Chachamim should 'know me'. Each person according to his station.
I am afraid that burying yourself in a 1000 year old Rashi is NOT the way to understand today's world. Contemporary scholarship is a must, and u can miss a few rishonim for it.
"U will never "understand the Torah" if u ignore the its scholarship of the last 1000 years. "
Indeed. i use the line that you can't possibly understand Torah, or most midrashim(including the 1290 Zohar) without knowing the historical context of when they written.
I recall one of my rabbeim saying that whenever one hears a mussar shmuz, the first instinct is to say "I wish so-and-so were hear, they really need to hear this." - so everyone explains it according to their needs; Slifkin pushes his ideas and the yeshivishers push theirs.
The truth is that ALL of the shortcomings are a result of general spiritual failure and our distancing from G-d resulting in our inability to serve him properly. The many reasons given aren't mututally exclusive.
"Rabbi Yona Metzger no doubt sincerely believed that he was serving Hashem, even as he engaged in bribery, corruption, threatening others, and sexual harassment."
Really!?
Do you think other rabbinic perverts also "sincerely believe they are serving Hashem"?
There is an alternative. They knew, and they didn't care as long as they got away with it.
And Gur on Gur violence? And calling somebody a 'retard'? They all believe they are serving Hashem is some form or other. All you need to do is self justify some spurious "it's for the greater good' type argument, and pretty much everything becomes muttar. Where does shulchan oruch actually say 'threatening others' is ossur? Lies - well, muttal leshanos mipnei hasholom, and anyway the real prohibition is just for eidus.
There isn't a single kulloh used in the chareidi world that they can't find support for 'in seforim', when they want. But they never seem to apply that approach to at least finding 'a tzad kulloh' for the kullos taken on by other groups.
To me it seems like 2 sides of the same coin and there is no real argument. If we "have improved our approach to the Divine Service as a way of life", "our verbal offerings, like the animal offerings described by the prophet" are not "perfunctorily performed rituals, never internalized, never spoken from the heart" etc., that will naturally be expressed in action and behavior. I don't think Artscroll would disagree with you.
artscroll literally emphasizes "feelings, thoughts AND DEEEDS".
If people meticulously follow the God-oriented rituals of the Torah, yet it does not make them a nobler person, that is a failure of the system, not the individual person. They r trying hard to do what they believe God commanded them, like offering animal sacrifices, and yet their soul is still slogging deep in the mire (I am talking about major sins like, c"v, sexual abuse of minors).
Simply put, the halakhic contract just does not work!
"If people meticulously follow the God-oriented rituals of the Torah, yet it does not make them a nobler person, that is a failure of the system, not the individual person."
(1) So if people speed on the roads then there is a problem with the traffic laws?
(2) There is such a thing as "נבל ברשות התורה". HaShem made it that way on purpose.
(3) One of the main features of creation (required for the fulfillment of the purpose of creation) is that people should have freewill. So the fact that Jews keep much of the Torah and fail in certain very important aspects is indeed a failure of individual people and not a failure of the system. As Moshe Rabbeinu argued against the angels who wanted the Torah not to be given to "lowly" people: "Do you (angels) have a yetzer hara (that you need to be commanded not to kill/steal/etc.)?"
Only a bitter apikorus/kofer would blame people's imperfection on the Torah.
It is high time for the Torah world to intensely re-evaluate what the concept of "free will" (FW) means. Constantly restating the Talmudic and Rishonic description of FW ignores 1000 years of history, Jewish history, and scholarship. For example, to invoke the purportedly inviolable concept of FW, as some do, to explain Hitler and his collaborators, is an utterly simplistic and wrongful way to understand the death of 40 million people.
The classical understanding of FW is woefully out of date.
I am reading all your comments on Free will and still cannot figure out which position you are taking on the issue. Does God intervene with free will or not? or sometimes depending on zechusim?
So if it is one person's death, FW is an acceptable explanation.
But when it happens 40 million times, things change.
Why? How much evil is acceptable and how much is unacceptable? (Reminds me of the Englishman's definition of anti-Semitism - hating Jews more than necessary).
The Hashkafas Hatorah that I learned is that the only evil that is unacceptable is that which destroys the universe. Anything less is a possibility in this world.
Unalterable FW does not have to be God's over-riding principle. After 1-2 million Jews died in the holocaust, God could have said: "enough already with Hitler's FW! I am going make an exception just this once and step in. I'll make it look like a freak accident, u know, a new recruit's stray bullet or something. They will know it was me, but so what? They cannot prove nothing."
Modern philosophy has many many REAL challenges to Chazalian FW, so a frum historian said in public. Go to the public library and open a book!
Your head is in the sand if u do not have theological issues with the holocaust (H). I almost would not mind if u said u HAD issues with the H and have found a way to deal with it. But to say u do not even HAVE theological issues with the H is voluntary ignorance. U will not find a single survivor, frum or not, who is at peace with the H.
Surely you can’t judge any system by its worst graduates. A better question might be whether the “average” adherent to halacha is nobler for their efforts. (And of course better itself needs to be relatively assessed. Id be interested to hear which system or ideology you would suggest gives better overall results.)
The Torah purports itself as THE God-given way to live, so do not compare it to other systems. It is full of time-intensive difficult obligatory rituals, like shabbat, kashrut, and animal sacrifice, some of which do not seem to be rational. We must assume that some good will come out of performing these rites, so we figure they r meant to purify us and make us holy. However, in many cases they clearly do not do so(e.g., child molesters). Ergo, the system does not live up to its promises.
"You imply that Modern Orthodoxy is somehow responsible for Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir. That is a blatant example of guilt by association, and truly a low blow that is unworthy of you. If Modern Orthodoxy is responsible for Goldstein and Amir, then Harvard is responsible for the Unabomber; Yale must answer for some of the most implacable kooks in this country — both right- and left-wingers, and by the same token Maimonides School is responsible for the tergiversation of one of its most distinguished graduates."
Shaul, unfortunately, the computer ate my response. Anyway, this website is an inadequate forum to discuss weighty issues. I hope we run into each other some, perhaps in our future nursing home, and have a long enjoyable conversation.
I don't think any group is responsible for BG, but if a BG type does arise out of a particular community, that community should wake up and do a reckoning.
"The Torah purports itself as THE God-given way to live, so do not compare it to other systems." that's precisely what you need to compare it to. If it is *the* god given way to live then it should outperform other systems. But it does not imply that every person who follows it will necessarily be “purified”. Of course there will be a spectrum, but that spectrum should be better than those in any other “system”.
I did not state anything about what *is* the best, merely how such an assessment could potentially be made (and in contradiction to your assertion on how "best" can be judged). Maybe re-read my comment.
The way u worded your comment "that spectrum should be better than those in any other 'system,'” implies that u view our system as the best. Your use of "should be" makes it no less certain, in your opinion, than "is," except that u falsely think it gives u wiggle room to say u did not literally SAY the magic word "is."
Do not expect any1 to buy your claim that a hyper-literal reading is necessary.
So Rabbi Druckman was not at least average? What about R Edelstein lashing out at those who went public about Rabbi Chaim Walder? Was he also below average?
Roughly a year later, and I had these same questions when reading the Artscroll Stone Chumash's explanation of Haftarat Devarim. It was quite a bit of irony that I had opened this tab a few months ago and happened to find it again accidentally. Or perhaps it was not irony. Perhaps it was the hand of Hashem at work.
It's always the other guy that has to do Teshuva, isn't it funny how things work out?
I mostly agree with much of what you said. There is a crucial point that if people are being insensitive to each other, which often comes from personal devotion to their religion, that there is something terribly amiss. There needs to be emphasis on the community coming together.
That being said, there are two points to be made:
1. "Rabbi Yona Metzger no doubt sincerely believed that he was serving Hashem, even as he engaged in bribery, corruption, threatening others, and sexual harassment." What?? That was a really silly thing to say. I know very little about Yona Metzger but he has nothing to do with your point. Even if religious devotion can lead to selfishness, if we find bribery and corruption like you describe, that is *not* because of the religion, that is unequivocally *despite* it. Your point can be a really great point in more mild terms, such as how the focus on self improvement and personal connection to God can lead a person to be more selfish, but someone who is outwardly hurting others, that has nothing to do with the religion; it is a flaw of the man alone. (And to bring in Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל - he obviously didn't know of these private matters or he would never had stood for them.) You took things unnecessarily far, and it kind of killed your whole message (especially when your whole point was to be less divisive).
2. More importantly - Judaism is indeed meant to improve people and better society - but not in a vacuum! We are supposed to - as a nation, as a whole - become better and more wholesome. But who are these people who are supposed to be bettering themsleves? We, the nation of Hashem. The nation which stands for HKBH and His will. The nation that devotes themselves to His Torah and Avoda. The people who say Shema and accept to follow God's will and commandments with every fiber of the their beings. In that context, we are supposed to do this *as a nation* and become better people and a better society. This context is very important. Religion can become a self promoting personal mission while it is supposed to be a collective undertaking. This public, national function then breeds kindness to the widows, aiding the wronged and learning to do good.
Simply being collectively 'good' without the religious, Godly mission behind it is just icing without the cake.
*What is Tisha B'Av actually about?* - It is the day that we devote to appreciating the loss of HKBH from our lives and how we *as a nation - together* work on our collective mission, bringing Him back into this dark, atheistic world. As such, we should all be zoche *together* to see HKBH join us here as we serve Him as a joined nation in the beis hamikdash, the finest community to be.
"if we find bribery and corruption like you describe, that is *not* because of the religion, that is unequivocally *despite* it." It's not that it happens *because* of religion. It's that religion (sometimes) enables people to get away with such things and still believe themselves to be holy.
"And to bring in Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל - he obviously didn't know of these private matters or he would never had stood for them." Actually, he totally did know, and expressly admitted it. Click on the link in the post.
"It is the day that we devote to appreciating the loss of HKBH from our lives and how we *as a nation - together* work on our collective mission, bringing Him back into this dark, atheistic world." I have a suggestion. Go through Yeshaya and Yirmiyah and Eicha and the kinnos, and count exactly what percentage of the sentences talk about the things you mention, versus the human tragedy and the things I discuss.
RNS - I read your blog often and comment occasionally. Today, I am pained reading both the original posting as well as the comments.
Your main point in the post (at least as far as I understand it) that the focus and message of Tisha B’Av (per Yeshaya) is that we need to focus more on taking care of the orphan and the widow etc; and worry less about davening and playing at being more holy than thou is right on.
But then I read your comments about R. Elyashiv, and your own Nevuah about “Lashon Harah! badmouthing Gedolim” (I’m almost amazed that you were able to predict that).
And I read Dovid-TM bemoan that he doesn’t think he should even try to defend R. Elyashiv because doing so might be asur and might invite further negative feelings / comments about him.
I read later in comments Zichron Dvarim refers to R. Goren and all the chief rabbis as lightweights (I can only presume he includes Chacham Ovadia Yosef who served at the same time as R. Goren)
And I read vitriol and venomous back and forth among so many here. And I need to pinch myself and remind myself that these are all Jewish people who care enough to read and comment on a Rabbi’s blog (as well as that rabbi himself). And we are all doing this during the week of Tisha B’av. And I am pained by that.
Yes we can all point fingers at each other - and apparently we all do that very well. (Even I, here, mentioned 3 others just now). Each of us knows much better than our neighbor. And of course we all have an obligation to make the world better, so why shouldn’t we call out bad behavior wherever we see it? After all, aren’t we all areivim zeh La’zeh?
Yesterday, I was speaking with my wife about what our leaders should do to improve things. I mentioned that perhaps we’d be better off heeding the words of the great artist Michael Jackson and “look at the man in the mirror and ask him to change his ways.”
Blogs might be more boring if we did that.
You missed the point.
I was talking about the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbis, who follow a different path. Goren was not a lightweight, he convinced people he knew what he was talking about and he had a great plan for his job. However, he was not worthy of it, he did not have the necessary integrity and he was not the scholar he thought he was.
Since his days, the Gedolei Yisroel made sure that all Ashkenazi Chief Rabbis should be lightweights, not people with great ambition, understanding, or leadership skills. People who would smile at public events, issue official statements, and generally know their place. Like we had in Europe.
Yes, of course I missed the point. The point is that I should not have named you by name. The point is that we all have different views, but that shouldn’t divide us. The point is that we are a tiny minority on this planet and we make our communities even smaller. But more important than the fact that I missed the point is that I didn’t explain myself clearly - my comment was not about whether or not you think or said R.
Goren is a lightweight. - rather my comment was about Tisha b’av being 48 hours away and we’re arguing about missing the point.
They say “Nero Fiddled while Rome burned”. We’re about to re-live the Beit HaMikdash burning, will we fiddle or do something about it? Maybe we should be firemen!
But beware, things aren’t always as simple as they seem - In Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury’s “Firemen” lit fires to burn books instead of putting them out. And according the “History of Firefighting” on firefighterfoundation.org.uk , “In AD 60 Emperor Nero formed a group of firefighters called the Vigiles to combat fires using water buckets and pumps.” So labels and famous quotes and whatever aside - the point is let’s try to douse some fires instead pouring gasoline all over them.
1. With religion they believe themselves to be holy. And without religion they would do these things and not feel holy. And they would probably consider themselves good people for other reasons. This has nothing to do with anything. Your general point was great, your example was lousy, and unnecessarily divisive.
2. Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל obviously didn't feel there was enough evidence to substantiate the claim. We have rules about when to believe, and at that point the evidence wasn't clear yet. The הלכות of לשון הרע can lead to problems, but they are real and important. And if they lead to issues the answer is not to abandon HKBH's הלכות because of a question. The question is how to deal with the issues in that context.
3. Here's my suggestion back. Read the Psukim along with our mesorah, such as our favorite Maimonides. See his famous Perek in the Moreh about Korbanos 3:32. Read שמע. Read about the עקידה and how Hashem's will and following Him are what matters. Read what כלל ישראל are about from beginning to end. And then read ישעיה, ירמיה and איכה accordingly.
One quick example: איכה ישבה בדד העיר רבתי עם רבתי בגויים וכו, read with the basic understanding of Yiddishkeit, we are not just sad that we lost our power. What is 'our power' for anyways? - BUT the city which was full of God's glory, and we, who stand for Him were a powerful nation -when we are down, He is down. That is a total tragedy because now He is no longer being represented to the world. That's why we are sad. We have nothing as a nation besides for this very fact - that we stand for Him. והעיר אשר נקרא שמך עליך, למענך אלהי כי שמך נקרא על עירך ועל עמך. His name is called on His city and on His people. We represent Him and our misery is His and our downfall in this world is His. That is the underpinning of Judaism and the underpinning of the Churban. The entire ישעיה ירמיה ואיכה is only about this. I can't help you if you missed the memo. Not to compare חלילה, but so did the Christians when reading הושע.
EDIT - Also, the amount of פסוקים discussing עבודה זרה and that we should focus more on Him are a huge percentage of these ישעיה and ירמיה...
" Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל/... obviously didn't know of these private matters or he would never had stood for them."
" Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל obviously didn't feel there was enough evidence to substantiate the claim."
obviously.
"Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל obviously didn't feel there was enough evidence to substantiate the claim."
You're putting thoughts into R' Elyashiv's mind. You don't know what he was thinking.
In any case, we'd expect a chief rabbi to be a substantial Torah scholar. That Metzger was not, was itself an obvious disqualification. Would you argue that "Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל obviously didn't feel" that Metzger was a rabbinic lightweight?
That a chief rabbi could be a lightweight and be sent to jail was a massive failure of דעת תורה.
You expect a Chief Rabbi to be a substantial scholar. Many Gedolei Yisroel felt differently. Not just Rav Elyashiv, back in Europe it was accepted that a government Rav serves us best if he is an am ha'aretz. Indeed, Reb Chaim Ozer told Reb Chaim Brisker that he arranged that the government Rav in Vilna should be a Yeshiva graduate, and Reb Chaim warned him that he would cause trouble. As we know happened.
Goren was someone who fooled some of the world that he was a Talmid Chacham. He caused no end of problems for Torah, as he sold Halacha off for his own advancement. Since then, Gedolei Yisroel have held that the lighter the weight, the better the Chief Rabbi.
You may disagree, although the prudent layman should realize that a serious responsible person, who actually has the weight of the responsibility on his shoulders, should have his opinion taken with a greater weight than that of a throwaway account on the internet.
But no, lightweight is not a disqualification, it is the main qualification. As we saw before and after Metzger.
"Goren was someone who fooled some of the world that he was a Talmid Chacham. "
There is no question that Rav Goren was a gaon. A controversial decision does not detract from this fact.
"he would cause trouble."
And Metzger didn't cause trouble?
"Since then, Gedolei Yisroel have held that the lighter the weight, the better the Chief Rabbi."
Speculation.
I'm not sure why you think ארץ יראל should be treated the same as Lithuania.
To add to my comment above or below from July 24, the zionist--non-zionist divide is like this. Non-zionists have a general attitiude to the Israeli gov't similar to their attitude to the Lithuanian gov't. Rabbis appointed by those gov'ts are suspected of having the gov't's interest in mind even at the expense of Judaism, Judaism being something whose best interests the gov't doesn't have in mind.
Whereas the zionist attitude is that the Israeli gov't is an incredible dream come true--the opposite of the Lithuanian gov't. We have a positive attitude to effectively whatever the Israeli gov't wants and as expressed by its appointed rabbis. Of course, then, the rabbis should be admired and respected as much as possible
"I'm not sure why you think ארץ יראל should be treated the same as Lithuania."
This is an old non-zionist constant that is a thorn in the side of zionists. Mentioned by Rav Svei in 1982 in his Machaah for Rav Shach who criticized Begin's annexation of the Golan.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Torah+downloads+svei+elya
https://torahdownloads.com/player.html?ShiurID=1004757 minute 5:00.. and especially minute 8:40...
Until and if non-zionists and/or zionists make a paradigm shift in their attitudes, there will be no agreement on this point.
(And just in general I call on my Achim B'deiah who have spare time to listen to Rav Svei's Devarim Niflahim in that recording.)
I wasn't expressing my opinion that EY is like Lithuania, I was expressing that of Gedolei Yisroel. It does make some kind of sense to me, after seeing what Goren did, and attempted to do, to Halacha. And there are many people who remember him when he was young. Goren was the hotshot who tried to impress people, but only succeeded with the lightweights. The Chazon Ish famously said about him, "He can't learn too well, but we will still suffer from him one day."
No, Metzger did not mess up psak Halacha. He may have done personal aveiros, but the dangers of an unfettered Chief Rabbinate did not occur in his times. He was a smiley face, whose job was to attend events. Great. Keep it up.
Don't talk badly about Rav Goren. Read his biography first before you judge.
You mean his autobiography. I read it.
The issue isn't what I think of him. Those in charge realized at the time that the candidates for Chief Rabbi must always be lightweights so they do not have the inclination to mess with the Torah.
This is all a side point anyways, and I'm not sure why you want to pick this fight. But as a good Torah Jew does, when a selfless תלמיד חכם who exemplifies and cares of nothing other than HKBH's Torah does something, we are to assume he was following halacha. If a failure happened, that is not failure of the person following the הלכה, rather a 'failure' of הלכה itself. That is not a failure of so called 'דעת תורה' that, if a failure, is a 'failure' of the תורה (I shudder to pen such sentences).
I don't know what Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל was thinking. What I do know is that he was no נביא. But to him Metzger had a חזקת כשרות and there are clear rules of when to go with the rumors (which follow any politician). As a halacha follower he was מחוייב to go with the חזקת כשרות not to be עובר the איסור חמור מאד של לשון הרע God forbid. That is a perfectly reasonable scenario. There may have been others.
Point is, I don't know what I would've done given that situation; probably Reb Elyashiv knew it could lead to חילול כבוד שמים ר"ל, but for him, there are rules when following הלכה and that includes not believing unsubstantiated rumors. If there is a failure down the line, that's in HKBH's hands.
It's probably אסור to continue this conversation - defending Reb Elyashiv to some in this crowd is like praising someone in front a rival, or simply in front of a crowd which is אבק לשון הרע - (see 'חפץ חיים פ"ט ה"א וב) which will lead to worse ביזוי ת"ח and לשון הרע, so I leave it at that.
It wasn't just vague rumors about Metzger. It was very specific accusations which came before a rabbinic court and were found credible, and this was relayed to Rav Elyashiv. And Rav Elyashiv said "Af al pi ken." He didn't think that they were false; he felt that nevertheless it's more important to have a charedi puppet in this role. As someone on this very thread defended.
Reb Dovid, are you a גלגול of גדליה בן אחיקם? Lashon Hara should never be part of the conversation when discussing major issues like this.
חזקת כשרות certainly is releveant, as is the fact that Rav Elyashiv was not a *hermit* but rather an experienced dayan who well understoood the concept of אם יש לו אויבים אויבים הוא דמפקי לי' לקלא, especially in regards to such a sensitive position where it is self uderstood who the אויבים are.
On a blog like this? There is no היתר for לשון הרע here.
If you meant Reb Elyashiv, I explained my position clearer below https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/subverting-yeshaya/comment/21270555 - I think the same as yours
"I don't know what Reb Elyashiv זצוק"ל was thinking."
"But to him Metzger had a חזקת כשרות"
You're not being consistent. You shouldn't write with such confidence when you're engaged in guesswork.
Sorry if I came off too confident. I don't know what he was thinking exactly, but I do know that he was following Halacha, and my theory is probably a close to truth guess.
You sort of miss the point. Isn't the doctrine of da'as torah that rabbonim cannot make mistakes, due to the divine wisdom that is bestowed upon them? Time and again, we see (well, some see, the chareidi press censors a lot of it for their congregants so they 'tacke' don't see) that simply is not the case. You can always reverse justify something to explain retrospectively, but if da'as torah can make mistakes, what is its worth? On that basis, da'as torah should stick to kitchen shailos, no?
2. This ridiculous black and white picture comes from the fact that we tell people how amazing they are, and that they are the most important people to follow, and if some people need to think that they are infallible in order to follow them (as teenagers, for example, often do need to think), so be it. But when we grow up and it turns out that it's more nuanced than that, we revise our picture accordingly when we can still hold them in the highest regard despite (well, really *because* of) the fact that they are human.
A lot of people following this blog are arguing against their 2nd year beis midrash picture of Daas Torah.
Exactly test, you're finally getting it. No one thinks they aren't human and no one thinks they are infallible. (Only the Sanhedrin Hagadol had such a power, see Ramban.) Daas Torah is that the rabbonim have their heads on straight and know what is important in life and they usually get it right even when those who follow other hashkafos get it wrong and think they are off. That's what they are there for. To lead spiritually and halachically. To follow Hashem and His Torah and to lead everyone else to do the same. No one thinks they can't make mistakes. We follow them because the are better at following the Torah and will more often be right than any of us.
It's worth a lot, more than anything because if you follow and strive to emulate them you will closer to HKBH. People who don't and spend their time disparaging them instead are being מבטל what's important in life and are מרבה חילול שמים ר"ל, see the famous Rabbeinu Yonah (ג:קמח).
Okay but RNS is also putting thoughts into R' Elyashiv's mind.
Let me also ditto that in Europe they always tried to get a 'Rav-Metaam' who was as ignorant as possible.
"In any case, we'd expect a chief rabbi to be a substantial Torah scholar. "
Tsk tsk. Organized religion.
Do not expect nothing, cause nothing is what u get!
"Go through Yeshaya and Yirmiyah..."
Why not go through the Bible and see how often it speaks of separate meat dishes and milk?
I don't like a lot of the critics, but I'm okay with you. I don't necessarily agree with you, but you may be the closest I've been to agreeing with a Haredi. Case in point, I'm not sure I agree with your version of Judaism here, but you presented it well and I appreciate your POV.
Thanks!
When I started reading todays post from Rabbi Slifkin, I was getting ready to "like" it, until I got halfway through and it was down hill from there. Is there a way to "like" half?
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/was-the-bais-hamikdash-destroyed
This is probably the dumbest post you've ever written.
"He does not say that we need to learn more Torah... And He does not say that we need to davven with more sincerity; He says that it’s our actions that count.
Now, you might argue that in order for our actions to improve, we need to work on sincerity in prayer. But that’s not what God says. And that’s precisely the point. To quote Rabbi Sacks, and I will emphasize the critical phrase:
What Isaiah saw and said with primal force and devastating clarity is that sometimes (organised) religion is not the solution but itself part of the problem"
You've somehow managed to conflate tefillah and introspection with organized religion. That's just crazy. Is doing chessed somehow *less* related to organized religion?
"Rabbi Yona Metzger no doubt sincerely believed that he was serving Hashem, even as he engaged in bribery, corruption, threatening others, and sexual harassment."
You seem to think that Rabbi Yonah Metzger is indicative of something rotten with 'organized religion.' Okay, maybe in one aspect. He *was* an official employee of the state. Presumably the eidah ha'charedis would agree with your analysis on that point. Really not clear what that has to do with much of anyone else. The average person- charedi, mizrachi, or chiloni barely knows who he even is. You might as well have brought up Katsav's rape, Olmert's criminal convictions, or the murder of Rabin.
Okay, then we get to your fetish "Rav Elyashiv no doubt also sincerely believed that he was serving Hashem when he (successfully) pushed for Metzger to be appointed as Chief Rabbi, even though reports about Metzger’s behavior had reached him." Here we can only wonder what organized religion has to do with anything. R Elyashiv was pretty much a hermit. He gave advice to certain politicians. How that amounts to 'organized religion' any more than 'Rabbi' Gilad Kariv bloviating in a committee hearing isn't clear.
"But let’s look at what Yeshayah actually says (translation taken from Sefaria).
Hear the word of GOD, You chieftains of Sodom; Give ear to our God’s instruction, You folk of Gomorrah!"
What's this got to with me? I don't know anyone from Sodom, let alone chieftains. And I've never been to Gomorrah in my life.
See? 2 can play the same hyper-literal game.
"I can hear it already. “Lashon hara! Badmouthing Gedolim!” "
No, just complete and utter idiocy
Helpfully, I just finished rereading Behold a People by Rav Avigdor Miller. His explanation of Yeshaya's words are...well I wouldn't say MORE cogent, because Natan's words are not cogent at all...cogent, period. He even quotes from the same pesukim. And unlike Natan's unhinged (from our mesora) rantings, his words are firmly rooted and sourced in our traditions.
His stinging rebuke was directed primarily at the leadership of the nation, particularly the royal house, less so the kahuna ("organized religion"). In today's terms, that would be the state. The state corrupted the common people then, as it does today.
But today, Natan and his ilk idolize the state. He turns Yeshaya's word around. Instead he bashes long dead private individuals like HaRav Elyashiv (ztz"l) who held zero temporal power, and even low-level functionaries of the state like Rabbi Yona Metzger, instead of the state itself and those who create and regulate all its components.
The הפטרה is supposed to be read by everyone, not just the political leadership. As such, the הפטרה has a message for the "common people", not just the "royal house".
The Radak makes it very clear that he's talking to the leadership and the common people.
אמר לשרים ולעם כי הקצינים הם דומים לקציני סדום ועמרה בעשקם העניים ובהטותם המשפטים והעם גם כן דומה לעם סדום ועמרה במעשיהם הרעים
"from our mesora"
Why don't you protest when the mesora is being denied by that other blog that you comment on?
"who held zero temporal power"
Not true.
" even low-level functionaries of the state like Rabbi Yona Metzger"
Not true.
"the state itself"
UTJ and Shas are the State. Or at least part of it.
Ok. I've had enough of your conspiracy theories, and you calling people "retards." Goodbye and refuah shelemah.
Whimp
Woohoo! Here we go again! Pretty soon only people who agree with me will be commenting and then I'll have that appearance of being a serious intellect like the old days!
Can't wait for the shtikel torah why this banning is any different than the chareidi bannings that our wonderful blogger says lectures in Boca about...
There weren't any conspiracy theories in there. I've had my disagreements with Shimshon, https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism/comment/18132241 but this last comment was pretty banal. We Americans fought a revolution on the theory that the people are sovereign and our elected representatives are merely delegated power by consent of the governed. The other part of his comment is also pretty much a truism. It's literally what we say and mean when we refer to a political party as 'out of power.'
That's a mistake. Even the most dyed-in-the-wool defenders of big government have finally learned the past few years that so-called "conspiracy theories" are often true.
(Not a fan of banning commenter Shimshon, who contributed. Tho I grant the constant use of "retard" had become grating.)
About time.
Good riddance
For organized religion substitute ritual without sincerity and indifference to justice,unfairness,manipulation to achieve monetary gain, indifference to economic needs and work in the name of limud Torah,,indifference to the need for basic education to earn a living etc..
"substitute ritual without sincerity"
That's the Artscroll approach. Which Dr Slifkin criticized.
"indifference to economic needs and work in the name of limud Torah,,indifference to the need for basic education to earn a living"
I get it. You think Charedim are leeches. Which may or may not be true, but has absolutely nothing to do with the haftorah. Not everything has to be shoehorned into your pet peeves.
I didn't say leeches. You did.I pointed out that sincere people can even become indifferent to the real needs of others on the name of certain ideals.
"I pointed out that sincere people can even become indifferent to the real needs of others on the name of certain ideals."
I don't deny that. That's not what this post was, though. It was some disjointed musing filled with some archaically translated glop (i.e. the *translation* is glop.) which barely held together, and yet somehow climaxed in calling out R Elyashiv (who died a decade ago) for backing R Metzger. Because true religion involves.... something or other. And the *true* message of Yeshayahu is that magical thinking is bad. And what better way of putting those lofty ideals into action than by writing (yet another) cheesy op-ed which conveniently makes the point that the community which banned your books was headed up by someone who distorted the message of Yeshayahu? Or something. I just find the navel gazing https://www.jewishvoicesnj.org/articles/rabbi-sacks-jews-need-to-stop-navel-gazing/ involved in writing such a post abhorrent.
Which real needs?
To make a living to support a family, to get a basic education,etc..
Oh okay, thanks for clarifying.
Are you part of the problem or solution?
Which problem?
"R Elyashiv was pretty much a hermit."
What does that mean?
"He gave advice to certain politicians."
Since when do hermits confer with the government? You're not being clear.
"Gilad Kariv"
Non-sequitor. I haven't seen much applause for Kariv in this forum.
"What's this got to with me?"
Read the הפטרה with the מפרשים!
"What does that mean?"
That he barely left his house, lived with his seforim, and learned in solitude for many years.
"Since when do hermits confer with the government? You're not being clear."
When they come to his hovel in meah shearim.
"Non-sequitor. I haven't seen much applause for Kariv in this forum."
Non-sequitor to what?
"Read the הפטרה with the מפרשים!"
Okay.
If you don't like it, why don't you just not read this website? No one is forcing you . . .
True.
Not true. To read an opinion and disagree with it is a fine thing to do.
The guy was banned for being obnoxious, so I guess I'm vindicated ; )
Who forced you to comment?
(Give NS credit for this much: He knows an opinion blog like this is only valuable insofar as other people comment and he interacts with them. The interaction creates a community or at least the illusion of it, (i.e., it makes no difference even if its the same dozen people over and over.) Who would bother to read someone else's opinions if he couldn't react with his own, or if there weren't others presenting the other side? Besides, it doesn't hurt NS in the slightest - one can't hope to be a public figure if one cant absorb a few blows from a few anonymous blowhards. And he gets free grist for the mill from the comments, too.)
What is wrong with reading a website and disagreeing with its ideas? Do u want only cheer-leaders to read this material? All others keep out!
Try writing an articulate critique without using insults..
thank you
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/subverting-yeshaya/comment/21217088
"Speaking for myself, I employ insults when they're an accurate description. This post is mind-numbingly stupid. I explain why I say that above. There's no way to characterize it more positively while remaining accurate."
In your opinion, it's"mind-numbingly stupid". Now, you may be correct, but I can't see that from your response. only insults..
He said...she said". You're certainly insult worthy, for thinking you are contributing substance to the discussion when you restate the same OPINIONS in 100 different ways.
Sure you can. Just skip the insults.
Better that you skip the insults. Here's a suggestion, if I may, delete your first response and re-write it articulately. Saying you're wrong, I'm right is also not the best way.
Here's a trial exercise, for you to show us how it's done.
Elvis Presley is the Messiah, as evidenced from the fact that his initials EP are clearly a remez to Eliyahu / Pinchos.
Now please debate that statement properly, conveying the appropriate degree of debunkery, without resorting to "insults".
"Saying you're wrong, I'm right is also not the best way."
That's not what I did. I provided my reasoning.
Natan, I haven’t read the other comments yet, but I am sure they will be filled with all manner of pious condemnation, no doubt accompanied by deliberate misinterpretation to make you look as bad as possible.
But personally, I think this is one of your best posts ever. Isaiah was right and so are you. Sometimes organized religion and people obsessed with its formalities ARE part of the problem, especially when they are used to cover up or excuse hypocrisy and corruption.
As the great navi’s report of Hashem's words makes clear, it is an ancient problem and, as you are brave enough to say, it is a problem we haven’t solved and still struggle with.
There are many here who need to heed the words of HKBH:
“Wash yourselves clean; put your evil doings away from My sight. Cease to do evil; learn to do good. Devote yourselves to justice; aid the wronged. Uphold the rights of the orphan; defend the cause of the widow.”
Unfortunately, too many of them are full of pride and mistakenly think His words couldn’t possibly be intended for them. So instead, they will attack you.
Yeah, as mentioned above there are still such suckers out there.
Natan's best post ever, yup. (Well, maybe. The competition ain't too stiff.)
Here's a couple of things for you to chew over, cuz you seem to have fallen for his quackery.
Firstly, have you noticed how Natan basically made up an entire phenomenon to debunk based on a ridiculous focus on an innocent paragraph from artscroll?
Have you EVER heard a three weeks / tisha b'av drasha in the chareidi world? Are you aware that almost every one of them focus on bein adam lechaveiro, interpersonal tzedek, etc?? Oh. So this post is arguing with a wall.... Great post, indeed.
And guess what?? Even drashas like the ones Slifkin derides would not be out of place as an emphasis.
See Nedarim 61a, for example, al mah avda ha'aretz (haftora of tisha b'av itself, by the way. Maybe that trumps the haftora of Shabbos Chazon, for those too shallow minded to maintain two focuses simultaneously). Al shelo barchu baTorah techillah. See Rishonim cited by Beis Yosef siman 46, that this refers to treated Torah as a utilitarian study as opposed the holy (mystical, perhaps?) pursuit of delving into G-d's word.
There's plenty substantiation available for the other ideas that the ignoramus makes fun of this post as well, but I doubt you're interested in them so I'll get on with my life for now.
Anyways, great post. One of the best ever.
Yes, Rabbi Slifkin seems to be borrowing the reform jewish tactic of learning hashkafa straight from the bible and prophets while ignoring chazal's teachings and interpretations of the verses. For those who follow rabbinic judaism, there are countless sources that give emphasis to the aspects Rabbi Slifkin is trying to downplay.
"as you are brave enough to say, it is a problem we haven’t solved and still struggle with."
Super brave to hold up the deceased leader of one's former community as an example of perverting religion.
"Unfortunately, too many of them are full of pride and mistakenly think His words couldn’t possibly be intended for them. So instead, they will attack you."
Ah! So THAT'S what it is! I was wondering why I was attacking Dr Slifkin! Are you available to purify my heart for me? I fear I'm too contaminated by empty rituals to do so myself.
Ha ha, good one.
The pathetic thing is that his [few remaining] sycophants are probably ignorant enough to fall for it, and those that can articulate how downright stupid the entire premise of this post is are under threat of ban. Oh well, guess the sycophants will remain ignorant.
there really is no need to use insulting language. its much more persuasive to calmly show how the article is flawed. and you won't get banned.
Speaking for myself, I employ insults when they're an accurate description. This post is mind-numbingly stupid. I explain why I say that above. There's no way to characterize it more positively while remaining accurate.
Insults are okay ritual stringencies are preferred. מחמירים בין אדם למקום ומזלזלין בין אדם לחברו.
accurate or not, its simply not a good strategy for engaging in public discourse. you're just shooing yourself in the foot. try to control yourself and maybe you'll be heard out more.
Could be. Though I'm not sure it really makes much difference. Also, FWIW I tend to stick to localized insults. I don't generally refer to people as idiots. I call certain statements idiotic.
Shaul, every bully in every schoolyard uses that lame excuse."Well, I called him fat because he IS fat!"
This isn't a playground, Slifkin isn't some defenseless little kid, and I'm not bullying anyone.
It absolutely is a playground. And IM is even more of a playground. At least Konreich and co write analytically and in learned style. Not just a bunch of bizarre mosholim, leitzonus, nitpicking and silly out of context diyukim
But u use bully tactics. U insult some1 because they NEED to be insulted for their dumb ideas. They deserve it!
It's incorrect to call it a bully tactic. It doesn't resemble bullying in any meaningful way. Not all insults are ipso facto bullying or improper. You need to explain why it's somehow inappropriate, let alone bullying, to comment on a public post in a manner which fully conveys my sentiments toward the post I'm critiquing.
Thank you for your articulate and accurate portrayal. Watch your back for the ban.
Thanks. Although, a ban might actually be effective at putting an end to my obsessive posting. If you can get me banned over at Irrationalist Modoxism too, I think my sanity might even start to return...
Do as I'm doing, and take a summer vacation.
(This post was just so abjectly idiotic, I couldn't control myself. I'm on my way back under my rock now...)
Actually, when Natan banned his most articulate debunker he specifically stated "I don't care if you insult me". Try another one.
That was because he claimed that his words were being grossly distorted and misrepresented with intention to see them in the worst light possible with no giving of the benefit of the doubt (ironically, he seems to be doing something similar to artscroll here). I think if the posters would have just written in a more calm and less inflammatory tone, he would not have viewed it that way.
You're cute. Right, if the poster had done what basically everybody else did for the previous decade - i.e. let this embittered ignoramus get away with the most ridiculous distortions while at best parrying them as if they are legitimate contributions to the intellectual arena, then he wouldn't have been banned. Because he wouldn't have been effective.
Banning is a convenient resort when your stupidity is being displayed in public, and you have nothing to answer. Best make sure nobody can read it. We've seen this before; funny how this blogger is usually quite righteously indignant about the practice.
Oh yeah, so he says "well you're distorting my words". Uh huh. Nice for him that you take that at face value.
Cappy, just to agree a bit with RT, for years many have commented calmly to no effect. See also what I cited here
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/subverting-yeshaya/comment/21260674
You guys banned me after just 2 comments, you have no right to complain about getting banned
If there are only a few supporters remaining, does that mean that your job is done now and you can take your ball and go home? Who are you arguing with?
I counted 6 insults in this sentence.
Good, you can be our record keeper. Now count stupidities in the post.
Insult denier. There must be at least seven. What else will you deny?
Reb Artscroll: We must use our mourning as a way of initiating an examination of our present-day feelings, thoughts and deeds.
Natan's Peirush: In summary, the message of Yeshayah is that we have to davven with more sincerity, fill ourselves with more knowledge of Torah, and become closer to Hashem.
I agree with your post, but it would be much effective and sincere if you included Rabbis from your own general camp (the RZ) such as Rabbi Druckman’s direct enablement of Rabbi Kopolevitch and Rabbi Elon in their abuse. You might also include well Rabbi Aviner and Rabbi Tau and their supporters. This has nothing to do with Charedism and has everything to do with Rabbis and people in power across the spectrum preferring their own comfort and prerogative to doing their job to protect members of their community.
Oh, absolutely!
Now if you decide to incorporate that in the post you can change its tone (and the tone of your opponents?) and better express yourself.
Though the Metzger case has got to be a candidate for the greatest chillul shem shamayim of modern times if not all time.
The Chief Rabbi of Israel is the face of Judaism to Jews and non-Jews across the world (regardless of whether he is just a figurehead).
The Ashkenazi chief rabbinate only became a figurehead position when the charedim took it over and started appointing figureheads.
Nailed it. Guys like you had nothing to do with the churban. It was because of people like Rav Elyashiv. Totally.
"It was because of people like Rav Elyashiv."
That, and lack of appreciation for the fruit stands in machaneh yehuda. And eating oversized kezaysim.
Rabbi Dovid Katz, a prominent Rav/historian in Baltimore, makes the same point in his most recent podcast.
I guess he doesn't know anything either?
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jewish-history-with-rabbi-dr-dovid-katz/id1376833321
I don't know who Reb Mendel Hirsh is, but the pessukim in Yeshaya were not written as a lament, they were a warning before the Churban, telling everyone to clean up their acts.
Leaders should act with justice, the general public should make sure that their actions are attached to thought and feeling, not rote, and Talmidei Chachamim should 'know me'. Each person according to his station.
R Mendel Hirsch was RSRH's son. You're better off reading his comments for yourself than relying on snippets provided on this blog.
https://www.feldheim.com/hirsch-haftaros
I knew that.
My point was that his identity isn't relevant here.
I am not yet up to that level. When I am done with the primary sources, the Rishonim on Nach etc., I will get to him.
I am afraid that burying yourself in a 1000 year old Rashi is NOT the way to understand today's world. Contemporary scholarship is a must, and u can miss a few rishonim for it.
And here was me thinking that the purpose was to understand the Torah.
U will never "understand the Torah" if u ignore the its scholarship of the last 1000 years.
"U will never "understand the Torah" if u ignore the its scholarship of the last 1000 years. "
Indeed. i use the line that you can't possibly understand Torah, or most midrashim(including the 1290 Zohar) without knowing the historical context of when they written.
So now you're changing your position?
When you settle down, get back to me.
I recall one of my rabbeim saying that whenever one hears a mussar shmuz, the first instinct is to say "I wish so-and-so were hear, they really need to hear this." - so everyone explains it according to their needs; Slifkin pushes his ideas and the yeshivishers push theirs.
The truth is that ALL of the shortcomings are a result of general spiritual failure and our distancing from G-d resulting in our inability to serve him properly. The many reasons given aren't mututally exclusive.
"Rabbi Yona Metzger no doubt sincerely believed that he was serving Hashem, even as he engaged in bribery, corruption, threatening others, and sexual harassment."
Really!?
Do you think other rabbinic perverts also "sincerely believe they are serving Hashem"?
There is an alternative. They knew, and they didn't care as long as they got away with it.
Moti Elon
Chaim Halpern
Etc
To name but a few
And Gur on Gur violence? And calling somebody a 'retard'? They all believe they are serving Hashem is some form or other. All you need to do is self justify some spurious "it's for the greater good' type argument, and pretty much everything becomes muttar. Where does shulchan oruch actually say 'threatening others' is ossur? Lies - well, muttal leshanos mipnei hasholom, and anyway the real prohibition is just for eidus.
There isn't a single kulloh used in the chareidi world that they can't find support for 'in seforim', when they want. But they never seem to apply that approach to at least finding 'a tzad kulloh' for the kullos taken on by other groups.
To me it seems like 2 sides of the same coin and there is no real argument. If we "have improved our approach to the Divine Service as a way of life", "our verbal offerings, like the animal offerings described by the prophet" are not "perfunctorily performed rituals, never internalized, never spoken from the heart" etc., that will naturally be expressed in action and behavior. I don't think Artscroll would disagree with you.
artscroll literally emphasizes "feelings, thoughts AND DEEEDS".
If people meticulously follow the God-oriented rituals of the Torah, yet it does not make them a nobler person, that is a failure of the system, not the individual person. They r trying hard to do what they believe God commanded them, like offering animal sacrifices, and yet their soul is still slogging deep in the mire (I am talking about major sins like, c"v, sexual abuse of minors).
Simply put, the halakhic contract just does not work!
"If people meticulously follow the God-oriented rituals of the Torah, yet it does not make them a nobler person, that is a failure of the system, not the individual person."
(1) So if people speed on the roads then there is a problem with the traffic laws?
(2) There is such a thing as "נבל ברשות התורה". HaShem made it that way on purpose.
(3) One of the main features of creation (required for the fulfillment of the purpose of creation) is that people should have freewill. So the fact that Jews keep much of the Torah and fail in certain very important aspects is indeed a failure of individual people and not a failure of the system. As Moshe Rabbeinu argued against the angels who wanted the Torah not to be given to "lowly" people: "Do you (angels) have a yetzer hara (that you need to be commanded not to kill/steal/etc.)?"
Only a bitter apikorus/kofer would blame people's imperfection on the Torah.
It is high time for the Torah world to intensely re-evaluate what the concept of "free will" (FW) means. Constantly restating the Talmudic and Rishonic description of FW ignores 1000 years of history, Jewish history, and scholarship. For example, to invoke the purportedly inviolable concept of FW, as some do, to explain Hitler and his collaborators, is an utterly simplistic and wrongful way to understand the death of 40 million people.
The classical understanding of FW is woefully out of date.
I am reading all your comments on Free will and still cannot figure out which position you are taking on the issue. Does God intervene with free will or not? or sometimes depending on zechusim?
So if it is one person's death, FW is an acceptable explanation.
But when it happens 40 million times, things change.
Why? How much evil is acceptable and how much is unacceptable? (Reminds me of the Englishman's definition of anti-Semitism - hating Jews more than necessary).
The Hashkafas Hatorah that I learned is that the only evil that is unacceptable is that which destroys the universe. Anything less is a possibility in this world.
Unalterable FW does not have to be God's over-riding principle. After 1-2 million Jews died in the holocaust, God could have said: "enough already with Hitler's FW! I am going make an exception just this once and step in. I'll make it look like a freak accident, u know, a new recruit's stray bullet or something. They will know it was me, but so what? They cannot prove nothing."
Modern philosophy has many many REAL challenges to Chazalian FW, so a frum historian said in public. Go to the public library and open a book!
Again, why after a million and not after one? What is the difference? You are merely repeating the same debunked claim.
If Chazal's answer worked for one, it should also work for a million and more.
I am not sure why I should accept, sight and name unseen, the words of a 'frum' historian.
I have no theological issue with the Holocaust, and whenever I see someone who does, it seems that they are not coming from a logical source.
Your head is in the sand if u do not have theological issues with the holocaust (H). I almost would not mind if u said u HAD issues with the H and have found a way to deal with it. But to say u do not even HAVE theological issues with the H is voluntary ignorance. U will not find a single survivor, frum or not, who is at peace with the H.
Surely you can’t judge any system by its worst graduates. A better question might be whether the “average” adherent to halacha is nobler for their efforts. (And of course better itself needs to be relatively assessed. Id be interested to hear which system or ideology you would suggest gives better overall results.)
The Torah purports itself as THE God-given way to live, so do not compare it to other systems. It is full of time-intensive difficult obligatory rituals, like shabbat, kashrut, and animal sacrifice, some of which do not seem to be rational. We must assume that some good will come out of performing these rites, so we figure they r meant to purify us and make us holy. However, in many cases they clearly do not do so(e.g., child molesters). Ergo, the system does not live up to its promises.
No patience to type. Quote speaks for itself.
https://forward.com/news/11308/a-response-to-noah-feldman-00242/
"You imply that Modern Orthodoxy is somehow responsible for Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir. That is a blatant example of guilt by association, and truly a low blow that is unworthy of you. If Modern Orthodoxy is responsible for Goldstein and Amir, then Harvard is responsible for the Unabomber; Yale must answer for some of the most implacable kooks in this country — both right- and left-wingers, and by the same token Maimonides School is responsible for the tergiversation of one of its most distinguished graduates."
Shaul, unfortunately, the computer ate my response. Anyway, this website is an inadequate forum to discuss weighty issues. I hope we run into each other some, perhaps in our future nursing home, and have a long enjoyable conversation.
I don't think any group is responsible for BG, but if a BG type does arise out of a particular community, that community should wake up and do a reckoning.
Not sure I agree with that. What does a 'community reckoning' entail? And how do you define Goldstein's community?
Shaul, the computer keeps eating my response.
"The Torah purports itself as THE God-given way to live, so do not compare it to other systems." that's precisely what you need to compare it to. If it is *the* god given way to live then it should outperform other systems. But it does not imply that every person who follows it will necessarily be “purified”. Of course there will be a spectrum, but that spectrum should be better than those in any other “system”.
Yoni2, u say that with undue confidence. Unless u have studied other "systems," it is presumptuous to state that ours is the best.
I did not state anything about what *is* the best, merely how such an assessment could potentially be made (and in contradiction to your assertion on how "best" can be judged). Maybe re-read my comment.
The way u worded your comment "that spectrum should be better than those in any other 'system,'” implies that u view our system as the best. Your use of "should be" makes it no less certain, in your opinion, than "is," except that u falsely think it gives u wiggle room to say u did not literally SAY the magic word "is."
Do not expect any1 to buy your claim that a hyper-literal reading is necessary.
So Rabbi Druckman was not at least average? What about R Edelstein lashing out at those who went public about Rabbi Chaim Walder? Was he also below average?
Roughly a year later, and I had these same questions when reading the Artscroll Stone Chumash's explanation of Haftarat Devarim. It was quite a bit of irony that I had opened this tab a few months ago and happened to find it again accidentally. Or perhaps it was not irony. Perhaps it was the hand of Hashem at work.