Ok Rabbi, you are finally succeeding in penetrating even me who has been so resisted to your message. I’m a greenhorn and have no family in the service . But I too see the announcements and the pictures and you are right. The people who are the vanguard protecting the rest of us have a right and an obligation to demand that everyone helps. So please accept my heartfelt apology.
Today I found out 😁 through a family connection that this girl,a Dati Leumi, who signed up for this 5 years for a special computer er program in the intelligence division, 8200, is now being used to teach Chareidi woman without payment
computer programming. These Chareidi woman have no connection to the Army and their husbands are not in the Army. Why is the Army doing this only for Chareidim women? What connection do these women have to get
this advantage? And who teaches them but National Religious girl's in the Army!
The problem for the Yeshiva World/Charedim is The Religious community have the Torah knowledge to see through the ruse. Personally, I am a supporter of Torah Study. I have 20+ relatives STILL learning in Kollel 20 years later. But what is happening here I can't understand. Even if you wanted to claim it’s not a milchet mitzvah in October '23 I dont see it but I heard it. Now?? When they are attacking us from all sides in all countries? And you sit it out then demand money? They lost me and I feel bad about it but I can no longer hypothetically defend their position when I could have before. The Rambam, Talmud Megillah 16, Bava Basra 7, Igros Moshe.... I have learned inside all the sources-quite honestly I could write forever on this issue. I’m sad for my people, but encouraged by those who have decided to defend us and the land. It's just sad. As for the Gedolim, I refer to the last two Blatt in MS Sotah as to the end of days...המבין יבין
For all of you posters who support the continuing of dereliction of klal responsibility, I ask one question: how weak is your Torah education that you fear it cannot withstand the challenges every-day Jews must deal with? How weak must have all the years you have spent in yeshiva been for you to not be able to retain your Judaism in the army? You either believe in Hashem and Torah/mitzvos or you don’t.
The fact is, people who are no longer religious after the army were probably not religious enough to begin with and would have found another excuse to walk away from hashem and torah. Maybe instead of teaching their talmidim it’s “us vs them” regarding their fellow Jews, they should follow the actual Torah model of Kol Yisrael aravim ze b’ze.
The most obvious reason the YW despise the hesder guys so much is bc they are living proof that one can be a Torah Jew and still protect our people and the land through his Torah study AND commitment to the mitzvah of fighting on behalf of the land and the Jewish people as Hashem commanded.
Maybe teaching a love of the Jewish people not like you AS THE TORAH COMMANDS instead of a hatred of all things not yeshivish/charedii they YW might find their education can withstand the challenges of the world around them and still be Torah true Jews. But then again why follow Torah law if you can make up your own?
One last point and with this I will end, It is so very interesting that every Rosh Hayeshiva in Hesder Yeshivot has been in combat/military and defended the land and the people of Israel. They are themselves huge Talmedei chachamim and gedolim B'yisrael. Yet which YW/charedi defender can name one or two or three? Which would even consider them not only a gadol but a talmud chacham? And yet they know all the names of the YW "Gedolim" who have not defended the land and the people with their own skin in the game. Are we sure we have the right gedolim? Even the ones who cant agree who gets a certain bais medrash to the point of violence or which brother is the true rebbe so much so they cant be seen together? Godelim b'aisrael huh? Again, ahavat chinam is paramount. If you cannot support your brothers at this time, there will never be a time. And therein, as they say, lies the rub. I don't have the standing in Heaven to make such a claim that my dereliction in duty is a Torah position. I hope you do.
": how weak is your Torah education that you fear it cannot withstand the challenges every-day Jews must deal with? How weak must have all the years you have spent in yeshiva been for you to not be able to retain your Judaism in the army?"
Here's the problem. We don't need to speculate. We look at what's happening in the dati community and that's enough. It's true that there are plenty of hesder guys who come out of the army as religious as they enter, but that's a very self-selecting population. The substantial majority of dati boys don't go to hesder in the first place, and the dati community has an atrocious OTD rate, much worse than chareidim, and a from a chareidi point of view, very weak observance in a majority of their population. Slifkin admitted that, while understating the problem, but said it's worth it- of course no surprise from a kofer and a meisis.
Of course the YW world doesn't hate the Hesdernikim. We're their dependable cannon fodder that dies in wars for them while also working and paying taxes that sustain their broken way of life. What's there to hate?
I suppose if that’s all you got from my post, you got me. Just to be sure, is your claim the Yw does not preach an us and them? The tzionim-never heard the term around the bais medrash, coffee room, Rebbies schmooz? I have heard it at some point from most everyone I know in that life. The term tzionim meant for the DL community is never said with admiration…just dismissal or disparagement. They never spoke of the koferim in your yeshiva regarding their fellow Jews? I have given a lot of thought to this question. Moshiach is not here bc of those who know about him or those who don’t? If the answer is the latter, you have indeed missed the entire point of this thing we call a Torah driven life. Now, if you’ll forgive me, I will get back to trying to figure out how to bring him by caring for for my fellow Jews-all of them-religious and non religious alike. I’ll let you get back to trying to figure out how to fix the misguided tzionim who have become “the useful idiots” of the Jewish people
My claim is that in Charedi Yeshivos they do not discuss Hesder Yeshivos at all. They don't 'despise' them, and you totally made up that libel.
When 'tziyonem' are mentioned, the reference is those who are inexcusably not religious and actively fight against Torah Yiddishkeit. Not Hesder students.
And only Satmar believe Zionism to be kefira, the rest of us just believe it to be misguided. But that doesn't mean we despise those who disagree with us. We just disagree. Like we don't despise Satmar.
So from the YW we have morphed to Chafetz Chaim. Somehow the Lakewood/Mir Yeshivos, which preach insularity, are responsible for the statements of the Chafetz Chaim Yeshivos, which preach the opposite.
And my point was of course they won’t mention them because they are an affront to their world view. To acknowledge them is to acknowledge that what the Yw says can’t be done, actually can. I heard a rabbi tell this story once. He is a teacher in a hesder yeshiva and they ask, like all yeshivos do, a certain Yw Rosh Hayeshiva to speak to their students. Most times it is reciprocal. In this particular incident said RH said “you know I can’t reciprocate” to which the rebbi replied “I believe our students would benefit from hearing divrei Torah and learning from you. If you do not feel your students have anything to learn from me, so be it.” It was never reciprocated. And the reason is quite obvious. The Yw arrogance of we are the ones who know and define for the religious Torah world what Torah is. Their actions speak as loud as their silence on hesder Yeshivot. Kippah srugot need not apply. Hesder is the antidote to their political football game and the problem is the jig is up and they can smell it. So their cyber-warrior feckless minions stand arrogantly in defense of a position they cannot biblically or talmudically justify then blame those who do the heavy lifting in defense of the land and its people as the Torah has clearly and unambiguously commanded, as if they are somehow the problem. And no, tzionim are not just secular Jews in the Yw. All it takes is a ten minute conversation and you’ll get the entire gamut of who can stand with the great Kollel and yeshiva bochurim and who can’t. Sadly, hesder yeshivas do not rank. As I posted before as definitive proof of this point, can you name 3 hesder RH who the Yw recognizes as a gadol b’yisroel. We already know the answer and that alone speaks volumes of the faux righteous and more to the point bankrupt ideology you sadly try and defend
I have news for you, Yeshivos are closed entities, they rarely discuss things outside of the Yeshiva. So Bobov is a non-issue, as is Belz, Hesder, and the price of cottage cheese.
But you made up a story about the YW, claiming they despise the Hesder Yeshiva students, yet consider yourself working hard to bring Moshiach through 'caring for all jews'.
When someone comes to town preaching honesty in business, hold your wallets. When someone preaches unity and love between Jews, you can be sure it is based on a deep-seated hatred of someone. As Reb Yehoshua Leib said about a group founded on ואהבת לרעך כמוך - they wish to fulfill the ברור לו מיתה יפה.
@Zundel, so many of us who have been in the charedi world have heard the slurs and degradation. Your pretending it doesn't exist is either 1) denial 2)willful ignorance 3) because you've circled in the very moderate parts of the charedi world, or 4) because you're kulo Torah and never discuss worldy issues. I'd hope it's the last one, but your presence on this blog doesn't make me optimistic.
I'll add another example of the snide remarks from YW toward RZ/YU world: calling Rav Soloveitchik, "JB". I wonder what would be said if Religious Zionists/YU started referring to the Chazon Ish as AY?
@Harold Katz, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Hardly made it up at all. I LIVED IT. And to be lectured on loving my fellow Jews by someone who defends the indefensible is par for the course for the poor victimized charedi community. Everyone attacks poor innocent righteous tzaddikim who let their brothers go off to war and protect them without batting an eyelash. After all it’s the Medina who has been crucifying the righteous for 75 years. Well, if you take away the indisputable fact that throughout world history there has never been a greater financial supporter of Torah study than that very same Medina. At some point you would hope the truly righteous among us would show some gratitude or even a simple thank you. But alas, who could they blame for their leading their sheeple down this selfish arrogant road? Fact is, your sleight of hand card trick picking out one almost irrelevant point to whine about instead of addressing the substance of what I wrote above did not get lost on me. I have dealt with you all of my life. The inevitable Torah quotes at the end to illustrate your erudition is always my favorite part of these sort of debates. I have zero hate in my heart for my fellow Jew, but I don’t expect one who went thru the us vs them system to understand it. Not everyone treats their fellow Jews as the Yw does. One day when you learn to think for yourself you’ll realize some people really do care about their brothers and struggle to sleep at night while they dodge bullets for mitzva of protecting the Jewish people. And some others just hope there’s enough cholent Thursday night in geula for the yungeliet. Fress away zundela. Eat to your hearts content. The tzionim and useful idiots are up all night keeping you safe. הַאַחֵיכֶם, יָבֹאוּ לַמִּלְחָמָה, וְאַתֶּם, תֵּשְׁבוּ פֹה…yup says the yeshiva boy…
I was speaking with a group of my son’s friends who are currently serving in Lebanon after serving for the better part of a year in Gaza. Two of them ended their business trips outside of Israel to return to fight and have had serious relationships ruined as a direct result of the toll of ten months of combat. One is home to recover from an injury incurred in Lebanon. We were talking and their mood was morose. The reason is because they are “tired of being friers”. They are tired of being the “useful idiots” not of the left but of the Chareidim! The Chareidim know that the Dati Leumi won’t stop serving and risk the lives and security of our nation. So these soldiers feel trapped. They have no alternative but to get continuously called up and continue to risk their lives, to sacrifice their livelihoods, to sustain physical and psychological injury and to continue losing friends and relatives because without the Chareidim sharing the burden, the alternative is unthinkable - at least for any Jew who cares about the welfare and lives of our nation. Seeing the despair on their faces hearing their despondent tone was incredibly painful. But was even more painful was the realization that the Chareidi refusal to draft is affecting the morale of our soldiers. Moreover, they expressed that they are aware that repeated call ups and constant physical and mental stress of combat takes a significant toll an reduces their ability to fight effectively. They are exhausted and emotionally drained and this negatively affects their proficiency as soldiers. They are aware that this increases the risks to the IDF. The Chareidi refusal to share the burden increases the soldiers risk of getting killed, increases their risk of friendly fire, increases the risk of allowing enemies to get away and decreases their ability to protect their fellow soldiers. This inevitable consequence of continued Chareidi draft refusal is not being discussed enough. The Chareidi community is literally costing lives. Their refusal directly endangers the lives of both soldiers and citizens - including Chareidim . How many casualties are a result of Chareidi draft refusal is impossible to say. However, if it’s even one, it is unjustifiable and unbearable.
You still just dont get it. Chareidim especially the Benei Yeshiva are NOT joining the army no matter how hard you scream and yell and no matter how much you hate us. The Gedolim have been crystal clear and באורם אנו נלך! Keep writing and keep hating it will make no difference.
Please take the money go for it. At the end of the day it wouldnt matter if the Chareidim joined the army or all went to work. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows you wouldnt be satisfied with anything other than the complete end of Chareidim as a group.
Wait, hold on a second? You think we want the complete end of Charedim as a group?!
1. I'd love to see proof of this insane statement. I don't even know why you'd think this way.
Do you think that Datiim Leumim also wish for the complete end of Charedim as a group?
Do you wish for the complete end of Datiim Leumiim as a group?!
2. If you really think that's true why are the Charedim staying in Israel? The country that by your own admission won't be satisfied until we see the complete end of their way of life as a group?
Why are all the gedolim basing their yeshivot in a wartorn country full of heretics that want to destroy their way of life? That seems like a massive danger for the Charedi world. One they don't have to worry about in the US and UK.
Here is an alternative explanation of reality:
Nobody wants to destroy the Charedi way of life, we just want them joining the workforce and serving in the army. The gedolim and Charedi MKs know this. That's why they stay in Israel and continue asking for as much money as possible from the state.
Why is it a bad thing to erase Chareidism??? Maybe beacuse there are many Chareidim who think that is the best way of life? Your welcome to disagree nobody os forcing you to be Chareidi that doesnt mean you get to destroy our way of life
But what does it mean to be Charedi? While I personally am more inclined towards Dati LeUmi, I love the Charedi way of life... the dedication towards Torah and Avodas Hashem. But part of the Charedi way of life is certainly difficult to defend- the current situation of the soldiers is one, and the small amount of Charedim willing to join the workforce and contribute that way to society. It's these two issues that R' Slifkin seems to have focused on over the past few years. Can you still have Charedism while changing those two potentially problematic stances? I don't see why not.
Just to add two cents to your rhetoric here (I don't mean that negatively), is that many gedolim feel that the matzav is shmad, and many other feel it's אביזרייהו דעריות or a חשש of עריות ממש. Personally, the information served to my table seems to disagree with the shmad aspect, and as far as עריות it may be that it's no different than going to work at this point, but I can hear that argument and we can debate it if you like (again, personally, I think this is not a valid objection).
That said, many gedolim don't think it is a case of shmad or arayos, as is my position as it stands, and if so it becomes more complicated to "defend," other than pointing out that such rabanim aren't against the IDF and are working on compromises which can properly accommodate valid charedi concerns (including important cultural sensitivities like not hearing ניבול פה every two words - Haviv Reteg Gur's example) and the only thing we need to "defend" is why it's taking so long, which is not so much of a question IMO because democratic policies take time.
And the DL community has a right to be angry (so long as they remember that the true enemy is Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran) and we can tolerate their anger as compromises are being worked on in the background. It's not as if they are sitting idly in the Knesset ignoring this hot button issue. And there is tremendous understanding of the sensitivities on both sides by most people, both in government and on the streets, in a way where compromises will truly be made beH. And, I reckon, faster than you think.
What about personal fines on each day the individual does not serve. These fines go to Hotzaah LaPoel and every day grpow interest.If you work they will take most of your salary. They will take your car and put alien on your apartment.You won't be able to declare bankruptcy and your debt will reach millions.
G-d forbid. Don't exaggerate. Perhaps this is projection on your part, along with your repeated claims of being "hated" by people who merely disagree with you.
Merely disagreeing is not making sure that those who dont enlist starve and their family starve because you have confiscated all there money. Thats called hatred. Read his comment
So in other words you know your words will have zero effect on Haredi enlistment, and your aim is simply to sow more and more hatred and impoverish them and their children.
And you think this will help persuade Hashem to bring us victory??
Of course. But who says they will join the army? The people who need daycare subsidies, with several children, are not exactly the ones you want in the army. The 18-22 yr olds need hardly anything.
Nobody "needs" daycare subsidies. They're a stupid socialist make work program. I don't chareidim to understand economics and apparently non chareidim don't understand it any better
the hatred is a result of their own refusal to help their countrymen in their time of need. I'm a religious person with many non-religious friends. Trust me, the country is absolutely seething. They see that religious people fight and die all the time. The Haredim go to the Knesset, refuse to take part in the war, and then have the nerve to ask for more money, while many Israelis are working hard to pay for the high cost of living here. Honestly, the idea that Rav Natan is sowing hatred is just absurd.
Your arguments are beginning to convince me that just as Hamas is happy to sacrifice the last of their fellow Palestinians, you would not be unhappy to watch the rest of us literally die in order to continue your present lifestyle.
I thank G-d every day for the haredim I know who have decided to serve at this time, because they enable us not to simply sever our connection.
I think that the public would be much more respectful of the wider Haredi society if they adapted the Satmar position of "don't ask anything from us and don't give us anything." The political Haredim (gimel and shas) treat the rest of the country as cow for milking purposes only.
I get that, but when they do take "treife" money they are violating there own principles and guidlines. The wider Haredi society twists the corrupt pork barrel corruption into some kind of virtue.
I think Charedim are slowly starting to realize that on this point specifically, the Gedolim's directive does not fit with the emes and there are small cracks in that armor. My hope is that the Gedolim will realize that before too much Emunas Chachamim is lost. And before too many families are broken and businesses destroyed and lives lost due to a shortage of soldiers. HaShem yeracheim.
A big chunk of Emunat Chachamim was lost in the Holocaust, and no gadol has ever apologized for that. (Well, Rav JB Soloveitchik did, and the Satmar Rebbe would sometimes mutter something in private.) Indeed, the excuses were already being made *during* the war, and coverups continued long after.
No evidence. Just from my conversations with Charedi friends and collogues and their apparent discomfort to defend the position (though, my Charedi "circle" is more American Yeshivish than Israeli Charedi so it could be a bit different in those circles).
Gedolim admitting their error would preserve Emunas Chachamim. It would show integrity. The current position is very difficult to defend. The arguments against it... halachically, logically, morally, emotially, are very strong. The main defense is "but the Gedolim say so." That's not something that will easily stand on its own.
This makes sense to you because you assume the gedolim are wrong. Nunu your entitled to your opinion. The vast majority of Chareidim prefer to believe the Gedolim over you.
I also don't think it's considered going their own way when there are plenty of Gedolim (though they may not be Charedi) who do acknowledge the obligation to support and defend Klal Yisroel on the battlefield. That may also be part of the problem, the mistaken notion that Charedim have a monopoly on Gedolei Torah.
then they need to leave this country. They can go somewhere else that won't make them serve in the army (although good luck getting Yeshiva subsidies).
So how do you view the relationship between Chareidim and the other citizens of Israel?
Right now, the non-Hareidim supply virtually all the soldiers, and the vast majority of the doctors, truck drivers, farmers, physical therapists, dentists, psychologists, math and English teachers, electricians, plumbers, air traffic controllers, engineers, pilots, etc etc.
What do you suggest the Hareidim bring to the "party" so we can [continue to] live together? or how do you think the Hareidi community will manage to survive if there is a complete break? Who will provide your doctors? handle your security?
I have yet to see a proposal from the Hareidi "side" that addresses how Israeli society can function going forward.
The Chareidim can move out of Israel if they want to draft dodge. They can live in poverty if they want to draft dodge. They can't be forced to do their part, but Israel needs to stop enabling them.
Im sorry to tell you you have zero more rights to this country than the Chareidim. Eretz Yisroel isn't exclusively yours. I know it must be hard for you but were not going anywhere
Then you can starve. If you won work, won't serve, and won't even muster an ounce f common human decency you do not deserve the support or protection of better men and women than you. Move to Iran or Egypt or Russia and try your delusional entitlement there
"You might not be able to directly force a change in the behavior of a family member who doesn’t care about your suffering, who doesn’t even care that he’s increasing it, and who tries to take advantage of you. But you certainly don’t reward and enable it." THIS!!!!!
Hundreds of people davening at the Goldberg shiva house this morning. No charedim. Until one came to ask for tzedaka. Not even to daven! I asked him to leave, calling out his chutzpah. He came back after davening to try again. I challenged him why he was there just to take. He responded (and maybe truly believes) that was offering zechut to those giving him tzedaka. I realized the pointlessness of engaging him any further, but left him with the suggestion to at least do nichum aveilim. To his credit he did then go over to the mourners, but whether to say tanchumim or ask for money I don't know
Although I would understand if a family sitting Shiva for a fallen soldier did not want or even allow those who oppose serving in the IDF to come to the Shiva.
Reminds me of the gemara talking about Rabbanim that were strict every week to participate in the physical preparations for Shabbat despite the fact that they had other people to do the preparations on their behalf.
As Rav Natan points out, we actually don't have enough people to do the work at hand and yet they still refuse.
The essence of Chareidi theology and existence is an exercise in aspirational unreality. It's like nothing is real to them. Just keep eating and dancing, and everything will be fine . . .
I made this a separate comment so as not to dilute my apology. I still insist that you have major expressive talent and invite you once more to write in US outlets read by the non orthodox and non especially affiliated to be mechazak them about the justice of our fight and give them the intellectual ammo to influence their friends. That voice is missing , there are a few. You write as well as Bret Stephens. You can start for practice by commenting on articles in the NYT. Even I might have some connections - maybe Smercinish? My friend won the Pulitzer Prize for political cartoons and also writes for the San Francisco Chronicle. If he can’t help place a piece he can guide you on how to get it done . I’m offering to help.
And all the usual Charedi voices here say "You're just haters!"
*checks*
Yep.
Guys, you have to pay your share, contribute to society, and not simply heap abuse on the goid people who take bread from their own children's mouths to feed you or die to protect you while you spit on them.
"having sold their souls to Bibi’s need to keep the charedi parties in his coalition"
That's both a little too fair and a little too unfair. Unfair first: I'm not going to talk for Bibi himself, ironically, but the charedi parties stay in so the government can last. (In all likelihood, they would *never* pull out even if they got nothing, but the amount of imagination needed to get past the "contzeptzia" is too much to expect from a politician.) And there is certainly a very- what's the word?- *rationalist* case to be made for this government lasting, and even with only Bibi in charge. It doesn't take any theorizing to know that the Left (well, the Israel Left is dead, but even the more center parties) being in charge could lead to disaster in a number of areas. And it's not hard to claim that only a class-A jerk like Bibi would be able to withstand Biden's (or whoever's) pressure the way, well, Bibi has. So at some point you make your choices.
I'll say this: I studied political science at university for four years. Toward the end of that period, I went to Yale University for a weekend to participate in a "Model Knesset." And I tell you, I learned more about politics in that one weekend than I learned in all four years. It's a dirty, dirty business- "the sausage factory," as Bismarck said. Unless a politician has absolute power one way or another (some do, of course) and/or unless he has no principles at all to begin (many do not, of course), he's going to be "selling his soul" at *some* point and- here's the important part- *for good reason*. It's not pretty, it's obviously not ideal, at some times (like with the charedim) is can be very, very bad and even dangerous- but it is what it is. Don't like it? Move to somewhere where it doesn't matter, like New Zealand or Paraguay. Or pray for an absolute monarch. (Which you also don't want, for other reasons.) But don't judge too quickly.
(And, for the billionth time, no, I voted for none of them.)
Oh, or, of course, you can hope that some of the more normal parties in the Knesset drop their stupid "cordon sanitaire" rules not just against Ben-Gvir but against Bibi. Unfortunately, at the moment not even Lieberman joining the government would help. So pray for him and Bennett to do well in the next election and not be too stupid about who they form a government with. (Of course, we *have* had such governments and still the charedim weren't drafted. That's the "no principles at all" department.)
On the other hand, I said you're being *too* kind. That's because there's a narrow sliver of the dati leumi world, one which is *way* overrepresented in politics (which is of course normal around the world, psychos are the only people who run) which openly believes that religious Zionism is a bedieved. R' Aviner says this explicitly whenever asked, that apart from the "little" matter of not serving in the IDF (and even not that) charedim are the ideal form of Judaism and we should all be learning Torah all day. (Obviously, a rosh yeshiva would say that, but still.) Smotrich, not-so-deep-down, has that inferiority complex too. (Many of his MKs don't, but he runs things. Ben-Gvir doesn't- his party isn't even religious.) Unfortunately, like I said, the Dati Leumi vote is scattered and the self-appointed standard bearers are of that ilk.
By the way, while I'm fully on board with cutting all subsidies, complaining about each step like this Post author does starts smelling, after a while, like moving the goalposts. Again, don't get me wrong- the subsidies have to be cut. But eventually it will be something else, and again politicians have no imagination,
So again, some politicians don't have souls; some do, but they're in the wrong place; and some have good ones but *have* to sell them for good (or at least least bad) reasons. And then some surprise you.
I am not Israeli, but my ideal world would contain a future where Bibi takes the free time between now and January to absolutely crush the remains of Hamas and Hezbollah then resigns, takes the symbolic blame for the "atrocities", resigns, and then leaves a blank slate to the new government.
Here's an example I just was reminded of: One of the dati leumi parsha sheets has a kashrut column. Every single one, including this week's, includes the advice to just trust whatever the Eida Charedit says. That is, their default is not rabbanut, not mehadrin, not even charedi, but the *most* anti-Zionist of charedim. Why is their hechsher the best? Because they're the "frummest," of course.
I'm an American Jew, not religious but passionate about Israel and Judaism in other ways (the ethics, the philosophy, etc.). What will the Charedi tell themselves IF Israel were to succumb to all of its enemies and no longer exist? Then what? They will have knowingly participated in their own destruction. They would not be able to blame the Dati.
The Jews became a nation upon leaving Egypt and in the desert at Mount Sinai. Being Jewish has nothing to do with this (or any) state. There are mitzvos connected with the Holy land, but just like a person who has no access to tefillin is just as Jewish as someone who wears tefillin, so to Jews have been Jews for 2000 years in exile. The land is Holy; the state is unholy and directly contradicts an opinion of the sages that nobody disputes (except the zionists).
Okay, I understand your argument from your POV; but then, if the state is so unholy they probably shouldn't be living there and certainly should't take money for this unholy government. Having said that, seems to me that if you move into a neighborhood -- for whatever reason -- you really should participate in whatever is required. As someone said, the studying will wait for a short time while soldiers do their duty and earn what they get from the rest of the country.
The Charedim are not (or should not be) trying to live in the state; they are living in the Holy land upon which some people have conveniently stationed a state.
As for receiving money from the state, there are two different approaches among Charedim, and some Charedim actually do not take any benefits from the state. I must admit that I do not fully understand the approach that does allow receiving benefits from the state, but I must also admit that I do not know enough Torah to argue with the Gdolim on either side; I can only say over what I have learned.
And about "participating in whatever is required", one needs to know what is required, what is permitted, and what is forbidden, which are things that we learn only from the Torah. Yes, the Torah teaches that the land of Israel has Holiness and importance and mitzvos attached to it. But the religious zionists do not have a monopoly on interpreting what the Torah says is required, permitted, or forbidden. Moreover, the religious zionists have become disqualified from interpreting these things (especially in relation to the land or state) because they have adopted the anti-Torah secular zionists' stance that Judaism is inextricably connected to the state - a state whose re-establishment is forbidden until the arrival of the Moshiach and is therefore considered a rebellion against G-d and the Torah.
While the things I have written here may sound extreme - Neturei Karta, Satmar, etc.-, these things were understood by all religious Jews for thousands of years (as it is recorded in the Talmud and left undisputed). Now that the state has been around for so long, even many Charedim have gotten "used to it" and have forgotten.
I appreciate your writing but it seems your knowledge of Chareidi positions on Zionism is limited to the dishonest "Empty Wagon" book. Independent research on the position of the Talmidei Hagra, Netziv, R Eliyahu Gutmacher, Mahratz Chayes, R Meir Simcha, the Ponivizher Rav, Rav Chatzkels Levinstein and Abramsky, Rav Moshe Blau, the Klausenberg, Vizhnitz, Ger and Belzer Rebbes would leave you with a different impression and that the 3 oaths are not halachically binding for one reason or another. Even the Steipler writes in קריינא דאגרתא that participation in the state is not forbidden once it was founded. He writes he read what the Satmar Rav wrote and doesn't understand it. R Yosef Chaim Zonnenfelds position is not the same as Satmar in many ways, as described in איש על החומה, which of course, empty wagon doesn't cite even once.
If you have any original mar'eh mkomos showing who in the Torah world agreed with the creation of a state (not getting involved with a created state, but actually creating it) I would appreciate it.
Again, whether it supported by the Gedolim or not was mainly because the Zionists were anti religious. But on the conceptual idea of such a possibility, look in the first printing (yes, it's been censored since) of Ohr Yechezkel regarding the six day war where he says sometimes hashem allows the reshaim to do the dirty work for us. The Meshech Chachma writes that after Belfour it is not forbidden, and the Chazon Ish in igros writes אין למדים מדברי אגדה with saying it has halachic ramifications. The Imrei Emes in his famous letter on Rav Kook, criticizes him for not seeing the Zionists for who they are, even as he focuses on one noble aspect of theirs. Rav Moshe Heineman Shlita, in ספר מה נאמר על מצוות התלויות בארץ says he leans to the possibility that the state is ראשית צמיחת גאולתינו, and cites the Mahral that moshiach is a מלכות קדוש הבא מתוך מלכות חול and we are at the first stage. I've seen quotes from the Arizal that the three oaths only apply for a thousand years, not sure where that is in the original. The letters from Rav Tzvi Pesach frank show he was really on the fence if Rav Kook was correct in his approach. I've also seen a haskama from Rav Shmuel Aurbach (to a sefer I don't remember the name), who writes the growth of Jews in EY is צמיחת הגאולה, despite his stronger position regarding the army. Iv'e spoken personally with the Noviminsker Rebbe as well who fully confirmed this position, that the state is not forbidden, but needs caution with regard to the anti religious policy of the government. From speaking to friends who discussed this with Rav Asher Arieli, this seems to be his approach as well. I would also recommend to listening to Rabbi Lopiansky's Shiurim on the topic at the end of his דע מה להשיב series.
By the way, this isn't a new thing to have two voices in the Yeshiva world regarding this. The Netziv headed Chovavei Tzion before things went haywire, while Rav Chaim Brisker was anti even then. I believe the split among their respective talmidim continue till this day.
My understanding (from my early Yeshiva days) is that they are/were in general agreement about the state. How to deal with it is was the major point of dispute in the Torah world, for example, whether or not to get involved in the government. But there was nobody (as far as I ever heard) that believed that Torah Jews should get involved in the government because we believe in having a state. By the way, Rav Shach also said the he doesn't understand the Satmar Rav's position, but that was regarding whether or not to get involved for practical (survival? easing hardship? etc.?) reasons. There are definitely a myriad positions on how to handle the b'dieved situation of having a state. But on the creation of the state, any machlokes (from what I learned) was very limited in scope.
Rav Shach was definitly more on the Brisker side of things regarding the state, and therefore held joining the government after is founded is then permitted. The steipler words it as אפילו אי נימא שהקמת המדינה אסור, מי הגיד שגם אח"כ אסור להשתתף בהנהלתו. But he does not say it's forbidden himself.
They live in the State of Israel. They are citizens of the State of Israel. They gorge themselves on the hard earned money of the State of Israel like a pig with both trotters in the trough. They exploit the State of Israel. They demand that other Israel is die for them.
They need to give back to the state of Israel some tiny fraction of what they have begged and stolen.
While you slander the people who are loyal to the Torah (even if they make mistakes even whether willfully or otherwise), I'm sure that you find plenty of leniency and favourable judgement for chiloni kofrim who also hate G-d in their bones, sin and cause others to sin, and will be happy to intentionally defame G-d and his Torah, all the while pretending to be the authentic Jewish people.
Come on. How many chilonim hate God. You have any chiloni friends? Met any in the army or university? They really don't hate God. Some just dont believe.
That they live in the state is accidental. There chose to live in Eretz Yisroel upon which heathens have placed a secular state and misnamed it "Jewish" because they happened to have been born Jews, and the gentiles often don't accept their assimilation (see Germany 1930s-40s), and the religious (authentic) Jews don't accept them because they are heathens.
The rest of your comment speaks for itself: You have copied the defamation that the gentiles use against the Jews and applied it to Charedim. You have amply demonstrated with whom you identify and whom you have taken to be your mentors.
"a state whose re-establishment is forbidden until the arrival of the Moshiach"
There is no such halacha, nor is there such a aggada. At best, there is speculative drush and uncompelling diyukim.
"as it is recorded in the Talmud and left undisputed"
There is no statement in the Talmud that states that Jewish sovereignty is forbidden before the arrival of משיח whether in Eretz Yisrael, or Palm Tree. Indeed, if we take the רמב"ם at face value, that משיח is a מלך- that would imply that some sovereignty is a prerequisite for משיח! How do you like that דיוק?!
For argument's sake, let's even say "There is no statement in the Talmud that states that Jewish sovereignty is forbidden."
But it does say that to return to the land en masse by force is forbidden. So if it would have been with no resistance from any relevant gentiles, then you MIGHT have a point. But that's not the way it happened.
לא יעלו בחומה and לא יעלו כחומה are 2 deifferent girsos, and Rashi has it בחומה. R Dovid Karliner and the Netziv supported חובבי ציון in the early years so they obviously didn't worry about that.
"But it does say that to return to the land en masse by force is forbidden. "
The consensus of ראשונים and אחרונים is that what's forbidden is (a) mass forced invasion and/or (b) immigration of the majority/whole of the nation. You (unclear) claim is not backed up by traditional sources. You can look up the sources yourself, or if you want a shortcut just look up the ראשונים and אחרונים cited in ויואל משה.
A king does not require a land. Moshe Rabeinu is called king by chazal in a number of midrashim, yet at that time the Jews had no land of their own. You may call it speculative drush, but I'm not going to argue against chazal who seem to take that drush as pretty seriously binding.
Hey, I hope you respond to me because I am really curious about this:
I totally agree that Zionism is accursed and that the Zionist movement was a mistake, but wasn't there eventually a point where having a state was the least bad option? If not, you'd have expected the haredim to widely opposed BG declaring independence, but instead they (other than Satmar and NK) quietly acquiesced to it.
Also, is there any halachic case forbidding the establishment of the state that doesn't rely on the Three Oaths? Because I don't find that line of argument convincing at all
Also, you may be uncomfortable that such a loaded issue being decided by a drasha. But know that many halachos come from a drasha (such a from the 13 hermineutical principles or elsehow). For example, one who makes himself a nazir without specifying the length of his nezirus is automatically a nazir for 30 days. And that is learned (Nazir 5b) from a gematria because the verse says "kadosh yihye" and the numerical value of the word "yihye" is 30.
But nobody cares because nobody (or at least sane people) don't make themselves nezirim today. But when it comes to a loaded subject like zionism everyone gets all worked up.
Lest you be unsure of how serious and in-force is such a drasha, in Ksubos 110b-11a, R' Zeira specifically avoided showing up in front of Rav Yehudah (the main takmid of both Rav and Shmuel), because Rav Yehudah was of the more stringent opinion that even an individual is not allowed to go to Eretz Yisroel, and R' Zeira did not want Rav Yehudah to forbid him from going. Now, to forbid someone from going to Eretz Yisroel is a very serious religious restriction, so it is obviously a serious and in-force drash - not like Slifkin or others would have you believe that they just wanted to teach or show something or other but "they didn't really mean it". They DID mean it and there are only two opinions, the stringent opinion being that it is forbidden for any Jew to go to Eretz Yisroel for the duration of our long golus, and the lenient opinion being that it is permitted for individual or groups of Jews to go to Eretz Yisroel as long as they don't go "bachomah" which Rashi explains as "yachad byad chazaka", together with a strong hand.
I once heard someone say that the goyim gave Eretz Yisroel to us, but that is not true. When the UN had a majority vote in favour of partitioning Eretz Yisrael between the Jews and the Arabs shortly before the creation of the state, the Arabs greatly protested and were already preparing for battle before the state was created. So while the goyim of the world as represented by the UN in Europe may be considered to have given Eretz Yisroel to the Jewish heathens, the neighbouring Arabs certainly did not. And even if we count the UN (because England was in control of Eretz Yisroel at the time etc. etc.) and we discount the neighbouring Arabs (for whatever reason one might dream up), the land was given to Jewish kofrim who are not counted among the members of Yisroel until they repent - so in the end, whichever way we slice it, the goyim did not give Eretz Yisroel to the Jews. And if one still finds some limud zchus, the fact is that the creatoin of the state and its rulership ever since is/was ultimately in the hands of kofrim, and it is forbidden for Jews to appoint a kofer to any position of authority or decision making, so at no time have we neem able to claim that we are willing members of the state. Our citizenship etc. is strictly for convenience (i.e., they want to give me an id number so I can whatever). As far as receiving financial benefits etc., I already commented somewhere else on this page that there are two shitos: some do and some don't, and I don't fully understand the opinion that it is permitted to receive benefits. (At worst, if they are wrong, you can call them self-contradictory. But as far as the Torah is concerned, they are not wrong about everything we said about the state.
This is bloviation. To put in concisely, the consensus of ראשונים and אחרונים is that שלא יעלו בחומה only forbids an immigration of (a) the majority of the people, and/or (b) by way of forced invasion. A peaceful immigration of a minority of the nation is permitted. In any case, the גמרא in כתובות says nothing about the formation of a government.
See the mahrsha in kesubos where he says that not all goyim have a right to opinion, similar to the days of Ezra when the kusim of EY protested the position of the Persian Government.
"wasn't there eventually a point where having a state was the least bad option?"
No. It was never the least bad option. It may have seemed like we quieted down about it, but that is because there was nothing we could do about it. The Arabs were attacking militarily in '48 and '49 and even they couldn't do anything about it. And I don't know what -if anything- would make us take up arms.
"If not, you'd have expected the haredim to widely oppose BG declaring independence, but instead they (other than Satmar and NK) quietly acquiesced to it."
Did they make demonstrations etc.? I don't know. If not, why not? I don't know. But I learned in a "normal" mainstream (i.e., neither Satmar nor NK nor Chalmer nor even Brisk) Yeshiva about 30ish years ago that we are not at all in agreement with the existence of the state, although we were not taught to do anything actively against it. Over the last thirty years people have talked less and less about it and now so much has been forgotten, especially by the younger generation who has heard very little at all about our opposition to the state.
"Also, is there any halachic case forbidding the establishment of the state that doesn't rely on the Three Oaths? Because I don't find that line of argument convincing at all."
The three oaths is a drash from Chazal that none of Chazal disputes. It is clear that there was a dispute among Chazal whether it it is forbidden for anyone at all to come to Eretz Yisroel or just forbidden to come en masse by force against the will of the gentiles. All religious Jews (until the recent advent of religious zionism) ruled like the lenient opinion that individuals (or small groups) could come to Eretz Yisroel, but not en masse by force against the will of the gentiles. This has been our way in golus as taught to us by Yaakov avinu when he went to meet Esav. No religious Jew (until the recent advent of religious zionism) ever thought otherwise. So if we find the drash about the three oaths unconvincing, that is our own problem because we have become accustomed to the world with zionism and with an established state.
But make no mistake, the secular zionists created a state that has nothing to do with Judaism. We wouldn't call idolatry a Jewish thing just because Jews are the ones doing it in Eretz Yisroel. So the state is also not Jewish just because Jews are the ones who established it in Eretz Yisroel. And as for the religious zionists, they just combined Judaism (which is a religion centered around G-d and His Torah which he gave to us) with the newly invented secular Jewish nationalism to create some third thing.
It says in the Zohar that HaShem and the Torah and the nation of Yisroel are one. I recently saw a prominent religious zionist write that the three pillars of Judaism are Torah, the nation of Yisroel, and the land/state of Israel. She literally removed G-d and inserted the land/state of Israel in His place; idolatry if I ever saw it.
As ive said before you want to hate us hate us its not going to change a thing. This country has hated us since the very beginning. Its irrelevant to us. We will continue to live as we see fit no matter what vile things you say about us we simply dont care. This group litteraly has said lies upon lies assumption upon assumption to justify their hatred of Chareidim. Almost nobody here had attempted even mildy to truly understand where Chareidim are coming from. The least if which is Rabbi Slifkin
This shows what an ignoramos you are. Even though you "used to come from them" you are so unabe to understand their position that you think the entire Charedi population of hundreds of thousands (or a million+) are just a bunch of mean spirited and selfish people who want other people to do their work for them.
As unreasonable, childish, and unlikely as your position is, perhaps the portion of your readership that agrees with you has an excuse, but that you used to come from the Charedim and are still as clueless as you are shows that you are either (1) too intellectually unfit or (2) too intellectually shapllow, or (3) too intellectually dishonest for this discussion. It also shows that you are/were probably unable to understand the ban on your books.
"are just a bunch of mean spirited and selfish people" I have never said that. On a personal level they are no better or worse than anyone else. It's the societal approach that ended up being mean-spirited and selfish.
Obfuscation. You didn't say those exact words, but it's what you convey. And even if it's not what you convey (even though it is), nobody can disagree that you make sweeping negative generalizations (not just disagreement but accusations) about the Charedim's motives for not joining the army.
And yes you have called the Charedi stance "selfish".
("... others disproportionately shouldering the burden of national security and the economy - why, that's just selfish.")
etc. etc.
And so your only response to my main point (and supporting evidence) that you are intellectually unfit for this discussion is a lie and obfuscation about what you did/didn't say. You are as utterly clueless as an 8 year old explaining how the builders of the Golden Gate Bridge didn't build it correctly.
You can't even accurately say over the Charedi perspective except as a quick and obtuse soundbite lacking all Torah context (except for maybe another soundbite or two).
You are not a talmid chochom and literally have no business arguing with them.
Yes, it's a selfish communal approach. Doesn't mean that chareidim are selfish people on a personal level.
"You are not a talmid chochom and literally have no business arguing with them." LOL. So just say that from the outset - that nobody has the right to argue with the charedi position.
""You are not a talmid chochom and literally have no business arguing with them." LOL. So just say that from the outset - that nobody has the right to argue with the charedi position."
Are you really that unable to follow the logic without a step by step guide. Try this:
(1) The statement: You are not a talmid chochom and literally have no business arguing with them.
(2) Statement breaks down into:
antecedent: You are not a talmid chochom
conjunction: and
conclusion: have no business arguing with them.
(3) Logical construction:
BECAUSE of the antecedent THEREFORE the conclusion.
(4) Plug in the actual case into the logical construct:
BECAUSE you are not a talmid chochom, THEREFORE you have no business arguing with them.
And do not draw the false conclusion that "nobody has the right to argue with the charedi position".
The reason that a non-talmid chochom can not argue with a chochom, is that he has absolutely know idea what has gone into their reasoning. As the analogy that I brought elsewhere on this page, like an 8 year old explaining to the engineers who designed the Golden Gate Bridge the mistakes they made in the design.
Here's another good analogy: like an am haaretz arguing with Gdoley Torah what is and is not (a) acceptable to print (b) kfirah, (c) etc..
So please, please enlighten us. Tell me how the Charedim justify not serving in the army while their country is attacked on all sides and their brothers are fighting and dying every day to protect them.
Tell me how they justify not working but demanding as much money as possible from the government while paying the least amount in taxes?
We're begging you to explain why we shouldn't despise your entire way of life. We're begging you to give us a reason to forgive you.
On our behalf? You mean the ones who call us parasites, who tell us that we should starve? I very much doubt it they would do any fighting for us if wasn't militarily or politically convenient for them. It definitely is not out of altruism.
1. Your condescension and sarcasm reveals your lack of sincerity to have this discussion.
2. You did not address any of the points I made in my original comment which included a demonstration of Slifkin's incapability to suitably participate in this discussion. Just the fact alone that he posted a picture about "Saving the State" which Charedim are against instead of posting something about saving Jewish lives is one clear demonstration of how clueless he is.
3. Try and answer this question without obfuscation. During the Roman seige against Jerusalem, was R' Yochanan ben Zakai happy about any of the victories the the Jewish (and not chiloni) biryonim (lead by Shimon ben Giora and the like) had against the Romans?
He addressed the real issues. You're just screeching "You're all haters! We'll never work! We'll never serve! If you think we should lift a finger you're atheists and aporikosim!" Try to be better
(b) You didn't answer the question. I asked: During the Roman seige against Jerusalem, was R' Yochanan ben Zakai happy about any of the victories the the Jewish (and not chiloni) biryonim (lead by Shimon ben Giora and the like) had against the Romans?
And yet your description of Chareidim couldnt be further from the truth. You describe the most radical corners of Chareidi society and paint them as the mainstream.
This is absolutely false. Spoken like an Anglo-charedi-wannabee who lives in Har Nof. I describe the mainstream, the rabbinic leadership, and the political leadership.
Yeh nice try bit no. Im about as integrated in the mainstream Chareidi society as you can. And i dont live in Har Nof and your description of Chareidim could not be farther from the truth
The main stream does have a significant (albeit low) number of men in workforce. Also, you are being sexist and also deceptive by not counting the Charedi women who are in the workforce which makes the stats (although not equal but) much closer than you would like to admit. Shallow research you do/parrot.
For people who claim to be חרדים לדבר ה', most of you have a ridiculously exaggerated sensitivity to criticism of any kind. It's always "Oooh, you hate me! You hate me! What have I done that you HATE me so much??!!"
Like girls in middle school, for crying out loud. Nothing less than effusive praise and absolute approval will do.
We fully understand where you come from and it a place of moral rot and degeneracy that you won’t even help your fellow Jews when we spill blood to keep you safe
Read what was said. If you refuse to work you don't deserve to steal bread from the children of those who do. If you refuse to serve you don't deserve the protection of of the heroes who are willing to die for their fellow Jews. If you refuse to do those move to Russia or Iran or Saudi and see how far it gets you
That's not what ggaslighting is. And we all know that most able-bodied haredi men, given the need, will not let their children starve. Unless an addiction to welfare and ירידת הדורות have somehow crippled them.
Natan, I listened to the recording of R. Neugroshel's talk that you posted. I could not help but notice that in your recap you glossed over his anecdote from R. Shmuel Eliyahu about the religious married man who came to him in tears about how, immediately after Oct. 7, he was assigned to spend months islolated in a namer with two female soldiers.
This doesn't seem to be an isolated incident. For those who haven't seen it yet, take a look at https://www.inn.co.il/news/642592. For those unfamiliar, R. Dovid Fendel is, I believe, the rosh yeshiva of the largest hesder yeshiva.
While you may feel that army service for religious people is nonethless justified, can you not appreciate at all the perspective of those who would not want to subject their children to such experiences? Can you truly not understand the lack of trust that chareidim have for the powers that be in Tzahal?
Indeed, perhaps if thousands of chareidim would join the army, things might eventually change in this regard. Or it might not. But can you blame people for not wanting to volunteer to run off a cliff so as to fill it up for others to walk upon?
I fail to see how a religious man being shut up in a small, enclosed vehicle with two young women for months on end (bathing there, sleeping there, etc.) is satisfied by the four points that you outline. 1) It's not true? You mean that Rav Shmuel Eliyahu made it up? Rav Dovid Fendel made up the concerns of which he writes? 2) Create solutions? Why then haven't the Dati-Leumi found solutions that obviate the above from occuring? Is the army unaware of their concerns? Or do they not care? 3) Yes, chareidim believe that avoiding serious spiritual pitfalls is more important than serving in the IDF. Jews have always placed spiritual danger above physical danger. That's what the Maccabees did when they took up arms against religious persecution. Again, were not talking about saying good morning to a female secretary. Unfortunately, we don't have a halakhic mechanism similar to the biblical allowance of yefas to'ar to allow our young, married soldier to sleep with Jewish niddos so as to facilitate the functioning of the IDF.
As far as R. Adlerstein's point, indeed, any chareidi rav who would tell a hesdernik that he must go to battle while telling chareidi boys otherwise is a hypocrite. But they don't! The chareidi rabbonim would say avoiding the army is equally relevant for all. It's not their fault that the hesderniks don't listen to them. 4) Should chareidim acknowlege the debt they have to those who do fight? One hundred percent! And I'm sure that there are not a small number of chareidim who would agree. Should the rest be criticized for not? Probably - but isn't that a much different critique than the one that you routinely level?
He references that post a lot, but somehow didn't allow comments on it, unlike every other post. It's his *most* important post on the issue! By FAR! It's where he gets close to the bottom of the issue. He just comes to the opposite of the correct conclusion, due to being a kofer and a meshumad of course.
Ok Rabbi, you are finally succeeding in penetrating even me who has been so resisted to your message. I’m a greenhorn and have no family in the service . But I too see the announcements and the pictures and you are right. The people who are the vanguard protecting the rest of us have a right and an obligation to demand that everyone helps. So please accept my heartfelt apology.
This small, simple message had a profound effect in giving me hope. Thank you so, so much.
Today I found out 😁 through a family connection that this girl,a Dati Leumi, who signed up for this 5 years for a special computer er program in the intelligence division, 8200, is now being used to teach Chareidi woman without payment
computer programming. These Chareidi woman have no connection to the Army and their husbands are not in the Army. Why is the Army doing this only for Chareidim women? What connection do these women have to get
this advantage? And who teaches them but National Religious girl's in the Army!
..
…m
The problem for the Yeshiva World/Charedim is The Religious community have the Torah knowledge to see through the ruse. Personally, I am a supporter of Torah Study. I have 20+ relatives STILL learning in Kollel 20 years later. But what is happening here I can't understand. Even if you wanted to claim it’s not a milchet mitzvah in October '23 I dont see it but I heard it. Now?? When they are attacking us from all sides in all countries? And you sit it out then demand money? They lost me and I feel bad about it but I can no longer hypothetically defend their position when I could have before. The Rambam, Talmud Megillah 16, Bava Basra 7, Igros Moshe.... I have learned inside all the sources-quite honestly I could write forever on this issue. I’m sad for my people, but encouraged by those who have decided to defend us and the land. It's just sad. As for the Gedolim, I refer to the last two Blatt in MS Sotah as to the end of days...המבין יבין
For all of you posters who support the continuing of dereliction of klal responsibility, I ask one question: how weak is your Torah education that you fear it cannot withstand the challenges every-day Jews must deal with? How weak must have all the years you have spent in yeshiva been for you to not be able to retain your Judaism in the army? You either believe in Hashem and Torah/mitzvos or you don’t.
The fact is, people who are no longer religious after the army were probably not religious enough to begin with and would have found another excuse to walk away from hashem and torah. Maybe instead of teaching their talmidim it’s “us vs them” regarding their fellow Jews, they should follow the actual Torah model of Kol Yisrael aravim ze b’ze.
The most obvious reason the YW despise the hesder guys so much is bc they are living proof that one can be a Torah Jew and still protect our people and the land through his Torah study AND commitment to the mitzvah of fighting on behalf of the land and the Jewish people as Hashem commanded.
Maybe teaching a love of the Jewish people not like you AS THE TORAH COMMANDS instead of a hatred of all things not yeshivish/charedii they YW might find their education can withstand the challenges of the world around them and still be Torah true Jews. But then again why follow Torah law if you can make up your own?
One last point and with this I will end, It is so very interesting that every Rosh Hayeshiva in Hesder Yeshivot has been in combat/military and defended the land and the people of Israel. They are themselves huge Talmedei chachamim and gedolim B'yisrael. Yet which YW/charedi defender can name one or two or three? Which would even consider them not only a gadol but a talmud chacham? And yet they know all the names of the YW "Gedolim" who have not defended the land and the people with their own skin in the game. Are we sure we have the right gedolim? Even the ones who cant agree who gets a certain bais medrash to the point of violence or which brother is the true rebbe so much so they cant be seen together? Godelim b'aisrael huh? Again, ahavat chinam is paramount. If you cannot support your brothers at this time, there will never be a time. And therein, as they say, lies the rub. I don't have the standing in Heaven to make such a claim that my dereliction in duty is a Torah position. I hope you do.
": how weak is your Torah education that you fear it cannot withstand the challenges every-day Jews must deal with? How weak must have all the years you have spent in yeshiva been for you to not be able to retain your Judaism in the army?"
Here's the problem. We don't need to speculate. We look at what's happening in the dati community and that's enough. It's true that there are plenty of hesder guys who come out of the army as religious as they enter, but that's a very self-selecting population. The substantial majority of dati boys don't go to hesder in the first place, and the dati community has an atrocious OTD rate, much worse than chareidim, and a from a chareidi point of view, very weak observance in a majority of their population. Slifkin admitted that, while understating the problem, but said it's worth it- of course no surprise from a kofer and a meisis.
Care to show proof of this 'hatred' between the YW and Hesder?
Cause I only know of a difference of opinion, no hatred at all.
Of course the YW world doesn't hate the Hesdernikim. We're their dependable cannon fodder that dies in wars for them while also working and paying taxes that sustain their broken way of life. What's there to hate?
I suppose if that’s all you got from my post, you got me. Just to be sure, is your claim the Yw does not preach an us and them? The tzionim-never heard the term around the bais medrash, coffee room, Rebbies schmooz? I have heard it at some point from most everyone I know in that life. The term tzionim meant for the DL community is never said with admiration…just dismissal or disparagement. They never spoke of the koferim in your yeshiva regarding their fellow Jews? I have given a lot of thought to this question. Moshiach is not here bc of those who know about him or those who don’t? If the answer is the latter, you have indeed missed the entire point of this thing we call a Torah driven life. Now, if you’ll forgive me, I will get back to trying to figure out how to bring him by caring for for my fellow Jews-all of them-religious and non religious alike. I’ll let you get back to trying to figure out how to fix the misguided tzionim who have become “the useful idiots” of the Jewish people
My claim is that in Charedi Yeshivos they do not discuss Hesder Yeshivos at all. They don't 'despise' them, and you totally made up that libel.
When 'tziyonem' are mentioned, the reference is those who are inexcusably not religious and actively fight against Torah Yiddishkeit. Not Hesder students.
And only Satmar believe Zionism to be kefira, the rest of us just believe it to be misguided. But that doesn't mean we despise those who disagree with us. We just disagree. Like we don't despise Satmar.
"Mizrachim" or "מזרחוניקים" is very often used as a slur. When I went to chafetz chaim they used to make fun of the modox all the time.
So from the YW we have morphed to Chafetz Chaim. Somehow the Lakewood/Mir Yeshivos, which preach insularity, are responsible for the statements of the Chafetz Chaim Yeshivos, which preach the opposite.
No. When I met ppl from those yeshivot they were even more anti. Not saying everyone. But that was very much the general vibe.
And my point was of course they won’t mention them because they are an affront to their world view. To acknowledge them is to acknowledge that what the Yw says can’t be done, actually can. I heard a rabbi tell this story once. He is a teacher in a hesder yeshiva and they ask, like all yeshivos do, a certain Yw Rosh Hayeshiva to speak to their students. Most times it is reciprocal. In this particular incident said RH said “you know I can’t reciprocate” to which the rebbi replied “I believe our students would benefit from hearing divrei Torah and learning from you. If you do not feel your students have anything to learn from me, so be it.” It was never reciprocated. And the reason is quite obvious. The Yw arrogance of we are the ones who know and define for the religious Torah world what Torah is. Their actions speak as loud as their silence on hesder Yeshivot. Kippah srugot need not apply. Hesder is the antidote to their political football game and the problem is the jig is up and they can smell it. So their cyber-warrior feckless minions stand arrogantly in defense of a position they cannot biblically or talmudically justify then blame those who do the heavy lifting in defense of the land and its people as the Torah has clearly and unambiguously commanded, as if they are somehow the problem. And no, tzionim are not just secular Jews in the Yw. All it takes is a ten minute conversation and you’ll get the entire gamut of who can stand with the great Kollel and yeshiva bochurim and who can’t. Sadly, hesder yeshivas do not rank. As I posted before as definitive proof of this point, can you name 3 hesder RH who the Yw recognizes as a gadol b’yisroel. We already know the answer and that alone speaks volumes of the faux righteous and more to the point bankrupt ideology you sadly try and defend
I have news for you, Yeshivos are closed entities, they rarely discuss things outside of the Yeshiva. So Bobov is a non-issue, as is Belz, Hesder, and the price of cottage cheese.
But you made up a story about the YW, claiming they despise the Hesder Yeshiva students, yet consider yourself working hard to bring Moshiach through 'caring for all jews'.
When someone comes to town preaching honesty in business, hold your wallets. When someone preaches unity and love between Jews, you can be sure it is based on a deep-seated hatred of someone. As Reb Yehoshua Leib said about a group founded on ואהבת לרעך כמוך - they wish to fulfill the ברור לו מיתה יפה.
@Zundel, so many of us who have been in the charedi world have heard the slurs and degradation. Your pretending it doesn't exist is either 1) denial 2)willful ignorance 3) because you've circled in the very moderate parts of the charedi world, or 4) because you're kulo Torah and never discuss worldy issues. I'd hope it's the last one, but your presence on this blog doesn't make me optimistic.
I'll add another example of the snide remarks from YW toward RZ/YU world: calling Rav Soloveitchik, "JB". I wonder what would be said if Religious Zionists/YU started referring to the Chazon Ish as AY?
@Harold Katz, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Hardly made it up at all. I LIVED IT. And to be lectured on loving my fellow Jews by someone who defends the indefensible is par for the course for the poor victimized charedi community. Everyone attacks poor innocent righteous tzaddikim who let their brothers go off to war and protect them without batting an eyelash. After all it’s the Medina who has been crucifying the righteous for 75 years. Well, if you take away the indisputable fact that throughout world history there has never been a greater financial supporter of Torah study than that very same Medina. At some point you would hope the truly righteous among us would show some gratitude or even a simple thank you. But alas, who could they blame for their leading their sheeple down this selfish arrogant road? Fact is, your sleight of hand card trick picking out one almost irrelevant point to whine about instead of addressing the substance of what I wrote above did not get lost on me. I have dealt with you all of my life. The inevitable Torah quotes at the end to illustrate your erudition is always my favorite part of these sort of debates. I have zero hate in my heart for my fellow Jew, but I don’t expect one who went thru the us vs them system to understand it. Not everyone treats their fellow Jews as the Yw does. One day when you learn to think for yourself you’ll realize some people really do care about their brothers and struggle to sleep at night while they dodge bullets for mitzva of protecting the Jewish people. And some others just hope there’s enough cholent Thursday night in geula for the yungeliet. Fress away zundela. Eat to your hearts content. The tzionim and useful idiots are up all night keeping you safe. הַאַחֵיכֶם, יָבֹאוּ לַמִּלְחָמָה, וְאַתֶּם, תֵּשְׁבוּ פֹה…yup says the yeshiva boy…
I was speaking with a group of my son’s friends who are currently serving in Lebanon after serving for the better part of a year in Gaza. Two of them ended their business trips outside of Israel to return to fight and have had serious relationships ruined as a direct result of the toll of ten months of combat. One is home to recover from an injury incurred in Lebanon. We were talking and their mood was morose. The reason is because they are “tired of being friers”. They are tired of being the “useful idiots” not of the left but of the Chareidim! The Chareidim know that the Dati Leumi won’t stop serving and risk the lives and security of our nation. So these soldiers feel trapped. They have no alternative but to get continuously called up and continue to risk their lives, to sacrifice their livelihoods, to sustain physical and psychological injury and to continue losing friends and relatives because without the Chareidim sharing the burden, the alternative is unthinkable - at least for any Jew who cares about the welfare and lives of our nation. Seeing the despair on their faces hearing their despondent tone was incredibly painful. But was even more painful was the realization that the Chareidi refusal to draft is affecting the morale of our soldiers. Moreover, they expressed that they are aware that repeated call ups and constant physical and mental stress of combat takes a significant toll an reduces their ability to fight effectively. They are exhausted and emotionally drained and this negatively affects their proficiency as soldiers. They are aware that this increases the risks to the IDF. The Chareidi refusal to share the burden increases the soldiers risk of getting killed, increases their risk of friendly fire, increases the risk of allowing enemies to get away and decreases their ability to protect their fellow soldiers. This inevitable consequence of continued Chareidi draft refusal is not being discussed enough. The Chareidi community is literally costing lives. Their refusal directly endangers the lives of both soldiers and citizens - including Chareidim . How many casualties are a result of Chareidi draft refusal is impossible to say. However, if it’s even one, it is unjustifiable and unbearable.
You still just dont get it. Chareidim especially the Benei Yeshiva are NOT joining the army no matter how hard you scream and yell and no matter how much you hate us. The Gedolim have been crystal clear and באורם אנו נלך! Keep writing and keep hating it will make no difference.
You missed my point. Correct, they are not going to join. But there will be financial costs to them.
Please take the money go for it. At the end of the day it wouldnt matter if the Chareidim joined the army or all went to work. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows you wouldnt be satisfied with anything other than the complete end of Chareidim as a group.
I wish the Gedolim would say "please take the money." We really need it. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-ministry-says-proposed-budget-will-harm-wounded-soldiers-families-of-fallen-troops/
Wait, hold on a second? You think we want the complete end of Charedim as a group?!
1. I'd love to see proof of this insane statement. I don't even know why you'd think this way.
Do you think that Datiim Leumim also wish for the complete end of Charedim as a group?
Do you wish for the complete end of Datiim Leumiim as a group?!
2. If you really think that's true why are the Charedim staying in Israel? The country that by your own admission won't be satisfied until we see the complete end of their way of life as a group?
Why are all the gedolim basing their yeshivot in a wartorn country full of heretics that want to destroy their way of life? That seems like a massive danger for the Charedi world. One they don't have to worry about in the US and UK.
Here is an alternative explanation of reality:
Nobody wants to destroy the Charedi way of life, we just want them joining the workforce and serving in the army. The gedolim and Charedi MKs know this. That's why they stay in Israel and continue asking for as much money as possible from the state.
And why is that a bad thing? Please defend yourself.
Also, you seem not to care about money at all, but the charedi MKs certainly do.
Why is it a bad thing to erase Chareidism??? Maybe beacuse there are many Chareidim who think that is the best way of life? Your welcome to disagree nobody os forcing you to be Chareidi that doesnt mean you get to destroy our way of life
But what does it mean to be Charedi? While I personally am more inclined towards Dati LeUmi, I love the Charedi way of life... the dedication towards Torah and Avodas Hashem. But part of the Charedi way of life is certainly difficult to defend- the current situation of the soldiers is one, and the small amount of Charedim willing to join the workforce and contribute that way to society. It's these two issues that R' Slifkin seems to have focused on over the past few years. Can you still have Charedism while changing those two potentially problematic stances? I don't see why not.
Just to add two cents to your rhetoric here (I don't mean that negatively), is that many gedolim feel that the matzav is shmad, and many other feel it's אביזרייהו דעריות or a חשש of עריות ממש. Personally, the information served to my table seems to disagree with the shmad aspect, and as far as עריות it may be that it's no different than going to work at this point, but I can hear that argument and we can debate it if you like (again, personally, I think this is not a valid objection).
That said, many gedolim don't think it is a case of shmad or arayos, as is my position as it stands, and if so it becomes more complicated to "defend," other than pointing out that such rabanim aren't against the IDF and are working on compromises which can properly accommodate valid charedi concerns (including important cultural sensitivities like not hearing ניבול פה every two words - Haviv Reteg Gur's example) and the only thing we need to "defend" is why it's taking so long, which is not so much of a question IMO because democratic policies take time.
And the DL community has a right to be angry (so long as they remember that the true enemy is Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran) and we can tolerate their anger as compromises are being worked on in the background. It's not as if they are sitting idly in the Knesset ignoring this hot button issue. And there is tremendous understanding of the sensitivities on both sides by most people, both in government and on the streets, in a way where compromises will truly be made beH. And, I reckon, faster than you think.
Plenty of chilonim think theirs is the best way of life. That's not an excuse. You have to tell me what *advantage* charedim bring to Israeli society.
You can decide whatever lifestyle you want so long as you're not demanding that others subsidize it.
The issue is not "satisfying Slifkin", it's making the ethical choice.
Sure, as long as it's just rhetoric, you say, "Take the money". But you never follow through.
What about personal fines on each day the individual does not serve. These fines go to Hotzaah LaPoel and every day grpow interest.If you work they will take most of your salary. They will take your car and put alien on your apartment.You won't be able to declare bankruptcy and your debt will reach millions.
Maybe we should remove their choldren next and put them in education xamps?
G-d forbid. Don't exaggerate. Perhaps this is projection on your part, along with your repeated claims of being "hated" by people who merely disagree with you.
Merely disagreeing is not making sure that those who dont enlist starve and their family starve because you have confiscated all there money. Thats called hatred. Read his comment
So in other words you know your words will have zero effect on Haredi enlistment, and your aim is simply to sow more and more hatred and impoverish them and their children.
And you think this will help persuade Hashem to bring us victory??
Without the financial support of their way of life, they will have to change their way of life.
Of course. But who says they will join the army? The people who need daycare subsidies, with several children, are not exactly the ones you want in the army. The 18-22 yr olds need hardly anything.
The people who need daycare subsidies are women who want to enter the workforce, not husbands who want to keep out of it.
Nobody "needs" daycare subsidies. They're a stupid socialist make work program. I don't chareidim to understand economics and apparently non chareidim don't understand it any better
I thought they can successfully fundraise from gevirim around the world.
the hatred is a result of their own refusal to help their countrymen in their time of need. I'm a religious person with many non-religious friends. Trust me, the country is absolutely seething. They see that religious people fight and die all the time. The Haredim go to the Knesset, refuse to take part in the war, and then have the nerve to ask for more money, while many Israelis are working hard to pay for the high cost of living here. Honestly, the idea that Rav Natan is sowing hatred is just absurd.
But I thought there is no hatred. I have been reliably informed by this chat that nobody "hates" Chareidim!!!
I do know some people who hate haredim, but they are not among the participants in this discussion.
Your arguments are beginning to convince me that just as Hamas is happy to sacrifice the last of their fellow Palestinians, you would not be unhappy to watch the rest of us literally die in order to continue your present lifestyle.
I thank G-d every day for the haredim I know who have decided to serve at this time, because they enable us not to simply sever our connection.
"Us"? Who is this "us" you're talking about?
I think that the public would be much more respectful of the wider Haredi society if they adapted the Satmar position of "don't ask anything from us and don't give us anything." The political Haredim (gimel and shas) treat the rest of the country as cow for milking purposes only.
Trust me, Satmar people take.
I get that, but when they do take "treife" money they are violating there own principles and guidlines. The wider Haredi society twists the corrupt pork barrel corruption into some kind of virtue.
They take every time they are admitted to hospital, they take every time their garbage is collected, etc etc
A big step forward for the wider Haredi world would be to stop taking special benefits that no one else receives.
They don't. There are no special chareidi benefits. There are benefits for being poor or having lots of kids.
Hypocrisy has never been a sin for the fanatic, the narcissistic, the sociopath, or the grifter
So they're all hypocrites but in different ways.
Or Some will forge their own path and not follow their gedolim.
There will always be those who go there own way. Thats between them and Hashem.
I'd rather follow Hashem than the gedolim.
I think Charedim are slowly starting to realize that on this point specifically, the Gedolim's directive does not fit with the emes and there are small cracks in that armor. My hope is that the Gedolim will realize that before too much Emunas Chachamim is lost. And before too many families are broken and businesses destroyed and lives lost due to a shortage of soldiers. HaShem yeracheim.
A big chunk of Emunat Chachamim was lost in the Holocaust, and no gadol has ever apologized for that. (Well, Rav JB Soloveitchik did, and the Satmar Rebbe would sometimes mutter something in private.) Indeed, the excuses were already being made *during* the war, and coverups continued long after.
You have evidence that chareidim are joining the army in greater numbers,?
No evidence. Just from my conversations with Charedi friends and collogues and their apparent discomfort to defend the position (though, my Charedi "circle" is more American Yeshivish than Israeli Charedi so it could be a bit different in those circles).
Maybe they are just trying to be sensitive to your suffering? Let's say, compared to me.
So to protect emunas Chachomim ee should throw it directly out the window?
Gedolim admitting their error would preserve Emunas Chachamim. It would show integrity. The current position is very difficult to defend. The arguments against it... halachically, logically, morally, emotially, are very strong. The main defense is "but the Gedolim say so." That's not something that will easily stand on its own.
This makes sense to you because you assume the gedolim are wrong. Nunu your entitled to your opinion. The vast majority of Chareidim prefer to believe the Gedolim over you.
I also don't think it's considered going their own way when there are plenty of Gedolim (though they may not be Charedi) who do acknowledge the obligation to support and defend Klal Yisroel on the battlefield. That may also be part of the problem, the mistaken notion that Charedim have a monopoly on Gedolei Torah.
then they need to leave this country. They can go somewhere else that won't make them serve in the army (although good luck getting Yeshiva subsidies).
I think Iran and Lebanon have both offered for Haredim to move there and learn Torah uninterrupted
So how do you view the relationship between Chareidim and the other citizens of Israel?
Right now, the non-Hareidim supply virtually all the soldiers, and the vast majority of the doctors, truck drivers, farmers, physical therapists, dentists, psychologists, math and English teachers, electricians, plumbers, air traffic controllers, engineers, pilots, etc etc.
What do you suggest the Hareidim bring to the "party" so we can [continue to] live together? or how do you think the Hareidi community will manage to survive if there is a complete break? Who will provide your doctors? handle your security?
I have yet to see a proposal from the Hareidi "side" that addresses how Israeli society can function going forward.
Shabbat Shalom
The Chareidim can move out of Israel if they want to draft dodge. They can live in poverty if they want to draft dodge. They can't be forced to do their part, but Israel needs to stop enabling them.
Im sorry to tell you you have zero more rights to this country than the Chareidim. Eretz Yisroel isn't exclusively yours. I know it must be hard for you but were not going anywhere
Yeah, try breaking the law in any other country in the world with that excuse.
By the way, almost all charedim in Israel, or their ancestors, arrived here *after* the Zionists built it up.
You mean after the zionists took over funding starved out the old yishuv and murdered there way to power but sure
Then you can starve. If you won work, won't serve, and won't even muster an ounce f common human decency you do not deserve the support or protection of better men and women than you. Move to Iran or Egypt or Russia and try your delusional entitlement there
Ahhh yes more non hate dripping from this comment. Bad news my friend tgis country belongs to us as much as to you and we aren't going anywhere
No one is screaming or yelling at you. No one here hates you, either. Get a grip.
Except for the people in the chat who have explicitly said there is hatered. Either your new here or your straight gaslighting
How sad. Will it take cattle cars?
"You might not be able to directly force a change in the behavior of a family member who doesn’t care about your suffering, who doesn’t even care that he’s increasing it, and who tries to take advantage of you. But you certainly don’t reward and enable it." THIS!!!!!
Hundreds of people davening at the Goldberg shiva house this morning. No charedim. Until one came to ask for tzedaka. Not even to daven! I asked him to leave, calling out his chutzpah. He came back after davening to try again. I challenged him why he was there just to take. He responded (and maybe truly believes) that was offering zechut to those giving him tzedaka. I realized the pointlessness of engaging him any further, but left him with the suggestion to at least do nichum aveilim. To his credit he did then go over to the mourners, but whether to say tanchumim or ask for money I don't know
Although I would understand if a family sitting Shiva for a fallen soldier did not want or even allow those who oppose serving in the IDF to come to the Shiva.
Wow, Gili, good for you for calling him out. How utterly apalling.
Reminds me of the gemara talking about Rabbanim that were strict every week to participate in the physical preparations for Shabbat despite the fact that they had other people to do the preparations on their behalf.
As Rav Natan points out, we actually don't have enough people to do the work at hand and yet they still refuse.
The essence of Chareidi theology and existence is an exercise in aspirational unreality. It's like nothing is real to them. Just keep eating and dancing, and everything will be fine . . .
I made this a separate comment so as not to dilute my apology. I still insist that you have major expressive talent and invite you once more to write in US outlets read by the non orthodox and non especially affiliated to be mechazak them about the justice of our fight and give them the intellectual ammo to influence their friends. That voice is missing , there are a few. You write as well as Bret Stephens. You can start for practice by commenting on articles in the NYT. Even I might have some connections - maybe Smercinish? My friend won the Pulitzer Prize for political cartoons and also writes for the San Francisco Chronicle. If he can’t help place a piece he can guide you on how to get it done . I’m offering to help.
I'm not sure why you keep pressing this point. No dig on R' Slifkin, but Israel has plenty of defenders. Everyone has his role.
And all the usual Charedi voices here say "You're just haters!"
*checks*
Yep.
Guys, you have to pay your share, contribute to society, and not simply heap abuse on the goid people who take bread from their own children's mouths to feed you or die to protect you while you spit on them.
"having sold their souls to Bibi’s need to keep the charedi parties in his coalition"
That's both a little too fair and a little too unfair. Unfair first: I'm not going to talk for Bibi himself, ironically, but the charedi parties stay in so the government can last. (In all likelihood, they would *never* pull out even if they got nothing, but the amount of imagination needed to get past the "contzeptzia" is too much to expect from a politician.) And there is certainly a very- what's the word?- *rationalist* case to be made for this government lasting, and even with only Bibi in charge. It doesn't take any theorizing to know that the Left (well, the Israel Left is dead, but even the more center parties) being in charge could lead to disaster in a number of areas. And it's not hard to claim that only a class-A jerk like Bibi would be able to withstand Biden's (or whoever's) pressure the way, well, Bibi has. So at some point you make your choices.
I'll say this: I studied political science at university for four years. Toward the end of that period, I went to Yale University for a weekend to participate in a "Model Knesset." And I tell you, I learned more about politics in that one weekend than I learned in all four years. It's a dirty, dirty business- "the sausage factory," as Bismarck said. Unless a politician has absolute power one way or another (some do, of course) and/or unless he has no principles at all to begin (many do not, of course), he's going to be "selling his soul" at *some* point and- here's the important part- *for good reason*. It's not pretty, it's obviously not ideal, at some times (like with the charedim) is can be very, very bad and even dangerous- but it is what it is. Don't like it? Move to somewhere where it doesn't matter, like New Zealand or Paraguay. Or pray for an absolute monarch. (Which you also don't want, for other reasons.) But don't judge too quickly.
(And, for the billionth time, no, I voted for none of them.)
Oh, or, of course, you can hope that some of the more normal parties in the Knesset drop their stupid "cordon sanitaire" rules not just against Ben-Gvir but against Bibi. Unfortunately, at the moment not even Lieberman joining the government would help. So pray for him and Bennett to do well in the next election and not be too stupid about who they form a government with. (Of course, we *have* had such governments and still the charedim weren't drafted. That's the "no principles at all" department.)
On the other hand, I said you're being *too* kind. That's because there's a narrow sliver of the dati leumi world, one which is *way* overrepresented in politics (which is of course normal around the world, psychos are the only people who run) which openly believes that religious Zionism is a bedieved. R' Aviner says this explicitly whenever asked, that apart from the "little" matter of not serving in the IDF (and even not that) charedim are the ideal form of Judaism and we should all be learning Torah all day. (Obviously, a rosh yeshiva would say that, but still.) Smotrich, not-so-deep-down, has that inferiority complex too. (Many of his MKs don't, but he runs things. Ben-Gvir doesn't- his party isn't even religious.) Unfortunately, like I said, the Dati Leumi vote is scattered and the self-appointed standard bearers are of that ilk.
By the way, while I'm fully on board with cutting all subsidies, complaining about each step like this Post author does starts smelling, after a while, like moving the goalposts. Again, don't get me wrong- the subsidies have to be cut. But eventually it will be something else, and again politicians have no imagination,
So again, some politicians don't have souls; some do, but they're in the wrong place; and some have good ones but *have* to sell them for good (or at least least bad) reasons. And then some surprise you.
I am not Israeli, but my ideal world would contain a future where Bibi takes the free time between now and January to absolutely crush the remains of Hamas and Hezbollah then resigns, takes the symbolic blame for the "atrocities", resigns, and then leaves a blank slate to the new government.
And goes to prison for the rest of his life for crimes preceding and following October 7
Here's an example I just was reminded of: One of the dati leumi parsha sheets has a kashrut column. Every single one, including this week's, includes the advice to just trust whatever the Eida Charedit says. That is, their default is not rabbanut, not mehadrin, not even charedi, but the *most* anti-Zionist of charedim. Why is their hechsher the best? Because they're the "frummest," of course.
It is disgusting for charedim to feed at the pork trough. It is doubly disgusting when they do so and refuse to support the countries they live in.
I'm an American Jew, not religious but passionate about Israel and Judaism in other ways (the ethics, the philosophy, etc.). What will the Charedi tell themselves IF Israel were to succumb to all of its enemies and no longer exist? Then what? They will have knowingly participated in their own destruction. They would not be able to blame the Dati.
They'd counter that Hashem protects when we follow his Torah.
You’re right. There’s probably no arguing and convincing some people. Seems to me they could at least do desk jobs, etc.
The Jews became a nation upon leaving Egypt and in the desert at Mount Sinai. Being Jewish has nothing to do with this (or any) state. There are mitzvos connected with the Holy land, but just like a person who has no access to tefillin is just as Jewish as someone who wears tefillin, so to Jews have been Jews for 2000 years in exile. The land is Holy; the state is unholy and directly contradicts an opinion of the sages that nobody disputes (except the zionists).
Okay, I understand your argument from your POV; but then, if the state is so unholy they probably shouldn't be living there and certainly should't take money for this unholy government. Having said that, seems to me that if you move into a neighborhood -- for whatever reason -- you really should participate in whatever is required. As someone said, the studying will wait for a short time while soldiers do their duty and earn what they get from the rest of the country.
The Charedim are not (or should not be) trying to live in the state; they are living in the Holy land upon which some people have conveniently stationed a state.
As for receiving money from the state, there are two different approaches among Charedim, and some Charedim actually do not take any benefits from the state. I must admit that I do not fully understand the approach that does allow receiving benefits from the state, but I must also admit that I do not know enough Torah to argue with the Gdolim on either side; I can only say over what I have learned.
And about "participating in whatever is required", one needs to know what is required, what is permitted, and what is forbidden, which are things that we learn only from the Torah. Yes, the Torah teaches that the land of Israel has Holiness and importance and mitzvos attached to it. But the religious zionists do not have a monopoly on interpreting what the Torah says is required, permitted, or forbidden. Moreover, the religious zionists have become disqualified from interpreting these things (especially in relation to the land or state) because they have adopted the anti-Torah secular zionists' stance that Judaism is inextricably connected to the state - a state whose re-establishment is forbidden until the arrival of the Moshiach and is therefore considered a rebellion against G-d and the Torah.
While the things I have written here may sound extreme - Neturei Karta, Satmar, etc.-, these things were understood by all religious Jews for thousands of years (as it is recorded in the Talmud and left undisputed). Now that the state has been around for so long, even many Charedim have gotten "used to it" and have forgotten.
I appreciate your writing but it seems your knowledge of Chareidi positions on Zionism is limited to the dishonest "Empty Wagon" book. Independent research on the position of the Talmidei Hagra, Netziv, R Eliyahu Gutmacher, Mahratz Chayes, R Meir Simcha, the Ponivizher Rav, Rav Chatzkels Levinstein and Abramsky, Rav Moshe Blau, the Klausenberg, Vizhnitz, Ger and Belzer Rebbes would leave you with a different impression and that the 3 oaths are not halachically binding for one reason or another. Even the Steipler writes in קריינא דאגרתא that participation in the state is not forbidden once it was founded. He writes he read what the Satmar Rav wrote and doesn't understand it. R Yosef Chaim Zonnenfelds position is not the same as Satmar in many ways, as described in איש על החומה, which of course, empty wagon doesn't cite even once.
If you have any original mar'eh mkomos showing who in the Torah world agreed with the creation of a state (not getting involved with a created state, but actually creating it) I would appreciate it.
Again, whether it supported by the Gedolim or not was mainly because the Zionists were anti religious. But on the conceptual idea of such a possibility, look in the first printing (yes, it's been censored since) of Ohr Yechezkel regarding the six day war where he says sometimes hashem allows the reshaim to do the dirty work for us. The Meshech Chachma writes that after Belfour it is not forbidden, and the Chazon Ish in igros writes אין למדים מדברי אגדה with saying it has halachic ramifications. The Imrei Emes in his famous letter on Rav Kook, criticizes him for not seeing the Zionists for who they are, even as he focuses on one noble aspect of theirs. Rav Moshe Heineman Shlita, in ספר מה נאמר על מצוות התלויות בארץ says he leans to the possibility that the state is ראשית צמיחת גאולתינו, and cites the Mahral that moshiach is a מלכות קדוש הבא מתוך מלכות חול and we are at the first stage. I've seen quotes from the Arizal that the three oaths only apply for a thousand years, not sure where that is in the original. The letters from Rav Tzvi Pesach frank show he was really on the fence if Rav Kook was correct in his approach. I've also seen a haskama from Rav Shmuel Aurbach (to a sefer I don't remember the name), who writes the growth of Jews in EY is צמיחת הגאולה, despite his stronger position regarding the army. Iv'e spoken personally with the Noviminsker Rebbe as well who fully confirmed this position, that the state is not forbidden, but needs caution with regard to the anti religious policy of the government. From speaking to friends who discussed this with Rav Asher Arieli, this seems to be his approach as well. I would also recommend to listening to Rabbi Lopiansky's Shiurim on the topic at the end of his דע מה להשיב series.
By the way, this isn't a new thing to have two voices in the Yeshiva world regarding this. The Netziv headed Chovavei Tzion before things went haywire, while Rav Chaim Brisker was anti even then. I believe the split among their respective talmidim continue till this day.
My understanding (from my early Yeshiva days) is that they are/were in general agreement about the state. How to deal with it is was the major point of dispute in the Torah world, for example, whether or not to get involved in the government. But there was nobody (as far as I ever heard) that believed that Torah Jews should get involved in the government because we believe in having a state. By the way, Rav Shach also said the he doesn't understand the Satmar Rav's position, but that was regarding whether or not to get involved for practical (survival? easing hardship? etc.?) reasons. There are definitely a myriad positions on how to handle the b'dieved situation of having a state. But on the creation of the state, any machlokes (from what I learned) was very limited in scope.
Rav Shach was definitly more on the Brisker side of things regarding the state, and therefore held joining the government after is founded is then permitted. The steipler words it as אפילו אי נימא שהקמת המדינה אסור, מי הגיד שגם אח"כ אסור להשתתף בהנהלתו. But he does not say it's forbidden himself.
They live in the State of Israel. They are citizens of the State of Israel. They gorge themselves on the hard earned money of the State of Israel like a pig with both trotters in the trough. They exploit the State of Israel. They demand that other Israel is die for them.
They need to give back to the state of Israel some tiny fraction of what they have begged and stolen.
While you slander the people who are loyal to the Torah (even if they make mistakes even whether willfully or otherwise), I'm sure that you find plenty of leniency and favourable judgement for chiloni kofrim who also hate G-d in their bones, sin and cause others to sin, and will be happy to intentionally defame G-d and his Torah, all the while pretending to be the authentic Jewish people.
Come on. How many chilonim hate God. You have any chiloni friends? Met any in the army or university? They really don't hate God. Some just dont believe.
That they live in the state is accidental. There chose to live in Eretz Yisroel upon which heathens have placed a secular state and misnamed it "Jewish" because they happened to have been born Jews, and the gentiles often don't accept their assimilation (see Germany 1930s-40s), and the religious (authentic) Jews don't accept them because they are heathens.
The rest of your comment speaks for itself: You have copied the defamation that the gentiles use against the Jews and applied it to Charedim. You have amply demonstrated with whom you identify and whom you have taken to be your mentors.
"a state whose re-establishment is forbidden until the arrival of the Moshiach"
There is no such halacha, nor is there such a aggada. At best, there is speculative drush and uncompelling diyukim.
"as it is recorded in the Talmud and left undisputed"
There is no statement in the Talmud that states that Jewish sovereignty is forbidden before the arrival of משיח whether in Eretz Yisrael, or Palm Tree. Indeed, if we take the רמב"ם at face value, that משיח is a מלך- that would imply that some sovereignty is a prerequisite for משיח! How do you like that דיוק?!
For argument's sake, let's even say "There is no statement in the Talmud that states that Jewish sovereignty is forbidden."
But it does say that to return to the land en masse by force is forbidden. So if it would have been with no resistance from any relevant gentiles, then you MIGHT have a point. But that's not the way it happened.
לא יעלו בחומה and לא יעלו כחומה are 2 deifferent girsos, and Rashi has it בחומה. R Dovid Karliner and the Netziv supported חובבי ציון in the early years so they obviously didn't worry about that.
"But it does say that to return to the land en masse by force is forbidden. "
The consensus of ראשונים and אחרונים is that what's forbidden is (a) mass forced invasion and/or (b) immigration of the majority/whole of the nation. You (unclear) claim is not backed up by traditional sources. You can look up the sources yourself, or if you want a shortcut just look up the ראשונים and אחרונים cited in ויואל משה.
The ramban writes that we cannot leave ארץ ישראל in the hands of the עמים.
A king does not require a land. Moshe Rabeinu is called king by chazal in a number of midrashim, yet at that time the Jews had no land of their own. You may call it speculative drush, but I'm not going to argue against chazal who seem to take that drush as pretty seriously binding.
Hey, I hope you respond to me because I am really curious about this:
I totally agree that Zionism is accursed and that the Zionist movement was a mistake, but wasn't there eventually a point where having a state was the least bad option? If not, you'd have expected the haredim to widely opposed BG declaring independence, but instead they (other than Satmar and NK) quietly acquiesced to it.
Also, is there any halachic case forbidding the establishment of the state that doesn't rely on the Three Oaths? Because I don't find that line of argument convincing at all
Also, you may be uncomfortable that such a loaded issue being decided by a drasha. But know that many halachos come from a drasha (such a from the 13 hermineutical principles or elsehow). For example, one who makes himself a nazir without specifying the length of his nezirus is automatically a nazir for 30 days. And that is learned (Nazir 5b) from a gematria because the verse says "kadosh yihye" and the numerical value of the word "yihye" is 30.
But nobody cares because nobody (or at least sane people) don't make themselves nezirim today. But when it comes to a loaded subject like zionism everyone gets all worked up.
Lest you be unsure of how serious and in-force is such a drasha, in Ksubos 110b-11a, R' Zeira specifically avoided showing up in front of Rav Yehudah (the main takmid of both Rav and Shmuel), because Rav Yehudah was of the more stringent opinion that even an individual is not allowed to go to Eretz Yisroel, and R' Zeira did not want Rav Yehudah to forbid him from going. Now, to forbid someone from going to Eretz Yisroel is a very serious religious restriction, so it is obviously a serious and in-force drash - not like Slifkin or others would have you believe that they just wanted to teach or show something or other but "they didn't really mean it". They DID mean it and there are only two opinions, the stringent opinion being that it is forbidden for any Jew to go to Eretz Yisroel for the duration of our long golus, and the lenient opinion being that it is permitted for individual or groups of Jews to go to Eretz Yisroel as long as they don't go "bachomah" which Rashi explains as "yachad byad chazaka", together with a strong hand.
I once heard someone say that the goyim gave Eretz Yisroel to us, but that is not true. When the UN had a majority vote in favour of partitioning Eretz Yisrael between the Jews and the Arabs shortly before the creation of the state, the Arabs greatly protested and were already preparing for battle before the state was created. So while the goyim of the world as represented by the UN in Europe may be considered to have given Eretz Yisroel to the Jewish heathens, the neighbouring Arabs certainly did not. And even if we count the UN (because England was in control of Eretz Yisroel at the time etc. etc.) and we discount the neighbouring Arabs (for whatever reason one might dream up), the land was given to Jewish kofrim who are not counted among the members of Yisroel until they repent - so in the end, whichever way we slice it, the goyim did not give Eretz Yisroel to the Jews. And if one still finds some limud zchus, the fact is that the creatoin of the state and its rulership ever since is/was ultimately in the hands of kofrim, and it is forbidden for Jews to appoint a kofer to any position of authority or decision making, so at no time have we neem able to claim that we are willing members of the state. Our citizenship etc. is strictly for convenience (i.e., they want to give me an id number so I can whatever). As far as receiving financial benefits etc., I already commented somewhere else on this page that there are two shitos: some do and some don't, and I don't fully understand the opinion that it is permitted to receive benefits. (At worst, if they are wrong, you can call them self-contradictory. But as far as the Torah is concerned, they are not wrong about everything we said about the state.
This is bloviation. To put in concisely, the consensus of ראשונים and אחרונים is that שלא יעלו בחומה only forbids an immigration of (a) the majority of the people, and/or (b) by way of forced invasion. A peaceful immigration of a minority of the nation is permitted. In any case, the גמרא in כתובות says nothing about the formation of a government.
See the mahrsha in kesubos where he says that not all goyim have a right to opinion, similar to the days of Ezra when the kusim of EY protested the position of the Persian Government.
"wasn't there eventually a point where having a state was the least bad option?"
No. It was never the least bad option. It may have seemed like we quieted down about it, but that is because there was nothing we could do about it. The Arabs were attacking militarily in '48 and '49 and even they couldn't do anything about it. And I don't know what -if anything- would make us take up arms.
"If not, you'd have expected the haredim to widely oppose BG declaring independence, but instead they (other than Satmar and NK) quietly acquiesced to it."
Did they make demonstrations etc.? I don't know. If not, why not? I don't know. But I learned in a "normal" mainstream (i.e., neither Satmar nor NK nor Chalmer nor even Brisk) Yeshiva about 30ish years ago that we are not at all in agreement with the existence of the state, although we were not taught to do anything actively against it. Over the last thirty years people have talked less and less about it and now so much has been forgotten, especially by the younger generation who has heard very little at all about our opposition to the state.
"Also, is there any halachic case forbidding the establishment of the state that doesn't rely on the Three Oaths? Because I don't find that line of argument convincing at all."
The three oaths is a drash from Chazal that none of Chazal disputes. It is clear that there was a dispute among Chazal whether it it is forbidden for anyone at all to come to Eretz Yisroel or just forbidden to come en masse by force against the will of the gentiles. All religious Jews (until the recent advent of religious zionism) ruled like the lenient opinion that individuals (or small groups) could come to Eretz Yisroel, but not en masse by force against the will of the gentiles. This has been our way in golus as taught to us by Yaakov avinu when he went to meet Esav. No religious Jew (until the recent advent of religious zionism) ever thought otherwise. So if we find the drash about the three oaths unconvincing, that is our own problem because we have become accustomed to the world with zionism and with an established state.
But make no mistake, the secular zionists created a state that has nothing to do with Judaism. We wouldn't call idolatry a Jewish thing just because Jews are the ones doing it in Eretz Yisroel. So the state is also not Jewish just because Jews are the ones who established it in Eretz Yisroel. And as for the religious zionists, they just combined Judaism (which is a religion centered around G-d and His Torah which he gave to us) with the newly invented secular Jewish nationalism to create some third thing.
It says in the Zohar that HaShem and the Torah and the nation of Yisroel are one. I recently saw a prominent religious zionist write that the three pillars of Judaism are Torah, the nation of Yisroel, and the land/state of Israel. She literally removed G-d and inserted the land/state of Israel in His place; idolatry if I ever saw it.
As ive said before you want to hate us hate us its not going to change a thing. This country has hated us since the very beginning. Its irrelevant to us. We will continue to live as we see fit no matter what vile things you say about us we simply dont care. This group litteraly has said lies upon lies assumption upon assumption to justify their hatred of Chareidim. Almost nobody here had attempted even mildy to truly understand where Chareidim are coming from. The least if which is Rabbi Slifkin
I know exactly where they are coming from. I used to come from there myself!
This shows what an ignoramos you are. Even though you "used to come from them" you are so unabe to understand their position that you think the entire Charedi population of hundreds of thousands (or a million+) are just a bunch of mean spirited and selfish people who want other people to do their work for them.
As unreasonable, childish, and unlikely as your position is, perhaps the portion of your readership that agrees with you has an excuse, but that you used to come from the Charedim and are still as clueless as you are shows that you are either (1) too intellectually unfit or (2) too intellectually shapllow, or (3) too intellectually dishonest for this discussion. It also shows that you are/were probably unable to understand the ban on your books.
"are just a bunch of mean spirited and selfish people" I have never said that. On a personal level they are no better or worse than anyone else. It's the societal approach that ended up being mean-spirited and selfish.
Obfuscation. You didn't say those exact words, but it's what you convey. And even if it's not what you convey (even though it is), nobody can disagree that you make sweeping negative generalizations (not just disagreement but accusations) about the Charedim's motives for not joining the army.
And yes you have called the Charedi stance "selfish".
See:
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/on-criticism-of-criticism-critique
("If one sector of society is acting in a selfish or harmful manner...")
and
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/haters-of-torah
(The chareidi refusal ... being selfish ....)
and
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/but-at-what-cost
(... it is selfish to insist that only others take risks because you don't want to.)
and
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/hypocrisy-of-selective-bitachon
("... others disproportionately shouldering the burden of national security and the economy - why, that's just selfish.")
etc. etc.
And so your only response to my main point (and supporting evidence) that you are intellectually unfit for this discussion is a lie and obfuscation about what you did/didn't say. You are as utterly clueless as an 8 year old explaining how the builders of the Golden Gate Bridge didn't build it correctly.
You can't even accurately say over the Charedi perspective except as a quick and obtuse soundbite lacking all Torah context (except for maybe another soundbite or two).
You are not a talmid chochom and literally have no business arguing with them.
Yes, it's a selfish communal approach. Doesn't mean that chareidim are selfish people on a personal level.
"You are not a talmid chochom and literally have no business arguing with them." LOL. So just say that from the outset - that nobody has the right to argue with the charedi position.
""You are not a talmid chochom and literally have no business arguing with them." LOL. So just say that from the outset - that nobody has the right to argue with the charedi position."
Are you really that unable to follow the logic without a step by step guide. Try this:
(1) The statement: You are not a talmid chochom and literally have no business arguing with them.
(2) Statement breaks down into:
antecedent: You are not a talmid chochom
conjunction: and
conclusion: have no business arguing with them.
(3) Logical construction:
BECAUSE of the antecedent THEREFORE the conclusion.
(4) Plug in the actual case into the logical construct:
BECAUSE you are not a talmid chochom, THEREFORE you have no business arguing with them.
And do not draw the false conclusion that "nobody has the right to argue with the charedi position".
The reason that a non-talmid chochom can not argue with a chochom, is that he has absolutely know idea what has gone into their reasoning. As the analogy that I brought elsewhere on this page, like an 8 year old explaining to the engineers who designed the Golden Gate Bridge the mistakes they made in the design.
Here's another good analogy: like an am haaretz arguing with Gdoley Torah what is and is not (a) acceptable to print (b) kfirah, (c) etc..
"Obfuscation."
Not the most accurate word to describe a response which clarifies an apparent ambiguity.
" You didn't say those exact words, but it's what you convey. "
So it's the tone?
No. I meant he may have said a different combination of words that means the same thing.
But even if it was just the tone, it would still be a problem.
So please, please enlighten us. Tell me how the Charedim justify not serving in the army while their country is attacked on all sides and their brothers are fighting and dying every day to protect them.
Tell me how they justify not working but demanding as much money as possible from the government while paying the least amount in taxes?
We're begging you to explain why we shouldn't despise your entire way of life. We're begging you to give us a reason to forgive you.
And (once again) you give us nothing in return.
We don't need your approval. Especially people contemptuous of religion like yourself and Slifkin, you're no better than a goy.
There are probably more "goys" willing to fight on die on your behalf then there are charedim wiling to pick up arms to defend their fellow Jews.
On our behalf? You mean the ones who call us parasites, who tell us that we should starve? I very much doubt it they would do any fighting for us if wasn't militarily or politically convenient for them. It definitely is not out of altruism.
1. Your condescension and sarcasm reveals your lack of sincerity to have this discussion.
2. You did not address any of the points I made in my original comment which included a demonstration of Slifkin's incapability to suitably participate in this discussion. Just the fact alone that he posted a picture about "Saving the State" which Charedim are against instead of posting something about saving Jewish lives is one clear demonstration of how clueless he is.
3. Try and answer this question without obfuscation. During the Roman seige against Jerusalem, was R' Yochanan ben Zakai happy about any of the victories the the Jewish (and not chiloni) biryonim (lead by Shimon ben Giora and the like) had against the Romans?
He addressed the real issues. You're just screeching "You're all haters! We'll never work! We'll never serve! If you think we should lift a finger you're atheists and aporikosim!" Try to be better
As of now saving the state=saving jewish lives who live in it.
Destruction of said state by its enemies= losing jewish lives to murderers who would love to kill you too, gdalya.
(a) What's your point.
(b) You didn't answer the question. I asked: During the Roman seige against Jerusalem, was R' Yochanan ben Zakai happy about any of the victories the the Jewish (and not chiloni) biryonim (lead by Shimon ben Giora and the like) had against the Romans?
And yet your description of Chareidim couldnt be further from the truth. You describe the most radical corners of Chareidi society and paint them as the mainstream.
This is absolutely false. Spoken like an Anglo-charedi-wannabee who lives in Har Nof. I describe the mainstream, the rabbinic leadership, and the political leadership.
Yeh nice try bit no. Im about as integrated in the mainstream Chareidi society as you can. And i dont live in Har Nof and your description of Chareidim could not be farther from the truth
Doesn't the mainstream refuse to serve in the army and the workforce while demanding maximum handouts from the government?
The main stream does have a significant (albeit low) number of men in workforce. Also, you are being sexist and also deceptive by not counting the Charedi women who are in the workforce which makes the stats (although not equal but) much closer than you would like to admit. Shallow research you do/parrot.
For people who claim to be חרדים לדבר ה', most of you have a ridiculously exaggerated sensitivity to criticism of any kind. It's always "Oooh, you hate me! You hate me! What have I done that you HATE me so much??!!"
Like girls in middle school, for crying out loud. Nothing less than effusive praise and absolute approval will do.
No one's ever hated you. Grow up.
Oh please. Read the comment section for the last year. What your doing is simple gaslighting
We fully understand where you come from and it a place of moral rot and degeneracy that you won’t even help your fellow Jews when we spill blood to keep you safe
Ahhh no hate in this comment just call over a million people moraly rotten and degenerate.... Nice
No we didn’t. We only dislike your actions now, you now that we are fed up with your refusal to do even the least minimum to help your fellow Jews.
No hatred. try again.
Read the comments telling Chareidim to starve. Pure hate. Stop the gaslighting
Read what was said. If you refuse to work you don't deserve to steal bread from the children of those who do. If you refuse to serve you don't deserve the protection of of the heroes who are willing to die for their fellow Jews. If you refuse to do those move to Russia or Iran or Saudi and see how far it gets you
That's not what ggaslighting is. And we all know that most able-bodied haredi men, given the need, will not let their children starve. Unless an addiction to welfare and ירידת הדורות have somehow crippled them.
More like disgust, but whatever….
Like gdalya who calls chilonim enemies
Natan, I listened to the recording of R. Neugroshel's talk that you posted. I could not help but notice that in your recap you glossed over his anecdote from R. Shmuel Eliyahu about the religious married man who came to him in tears about how, immediately after Oct. 7, he was assigned to spend months islolated in a namer with two female soldiers.
This doesn't seem to be an isolated incident. For those who haven't seen it yet, take a look at https://www.inn.co.il/news/642592. For those unfamiliar, R. Dovid Fendel is, I believe, the rosh yeshiva of the largest hesder yeshiva.
While you may feel that army service for religious people is nonethless justified, can you not appreciate at all the perspective of those who would not want to subject their children to such experiences? Can you truly not understand the lack of trust that chareidim have for the powers that be in Tzahal?
Indeed, perhaps if thousands of chareidim would join the army, things might eventually change in this regard. Or it might not. But can you blame people for not wanting to volunteer to run off a cliff so as to fill it up for others to walk upon?
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-religious-risks-of-idf-service
Yes, I had read this when it was published.
I fail to see how a religious man being shut up in a small, enclosed vehicle with two young women for months on end (bathing there, sleeping there, etc.) is satisfied by the four points that you outline. 1) It's not true? You mean that Rav Shmuel Eliyahu made it up? Rav Dovid Fendel made up the concerns of which he writes? 2) Create solutions? Why then haven't the Dati-Leumi found solutions that obviate the above from occuring? Is the army unaware of their concerns? Or do they not care? 3) Yes, chareidim believe that avoiding serious spiritual pitfalls is more important than serving in the IDF. Jews have always placed spiritual danger above physical danger. That's what the Maccabees did when they took up arms against religious persecution. Again, were not talking about saying good morning to a female secretary. Unfortunately, we don't have a halakhic mechanism similar to the biblical allowance of yefas to'ar to allow our young, married soldier to sleep with Jewish niddos so as to facilitate the functioning of the IDF.
As far as R. Adlerstein's point, indeed, any chareidi rav who would tell a hesdernik that he must go to battle while telling chareidi boys otherwise is a hypocrite. But they don't! The chareidi rabbonim would say avoiding the army is equally relevant for all. It's not their fault that the hesderniks don't listen to them. 4) Should chareidim acknowlege the debt they have to those who do fight? One hundred percent! And I'm sure that there are not a small number of chareidim who would agree. Should the rest be criticized for not? Probably - but isn't that a much different critique than the one that you routinely level?
He references that post a lot, but somehow didn't allow comments on it, unlike every other post. It's his *most* important post on the issue! By FAR! It's where he gets close to the bottom of the issue. He just comes to the opposite of the correct conclusion, due to being a kofer and a meshumad of course.
Useful idiots of the Left? What Left? There's no Left in Israel anymore.