I received this comment from a rabbi who was in attendance:
I was at the event, and one of the things I noticed is how sparse the crowd was. You can even see it in the pictures posted on YWN. It took a long time before the room felt even remotely full. I think one of the reasons for that is that events like this are actually counterproductive for the Haredi community, and there are two main reasons why.
First, when you listen to the arguments being presented by the Gedolim, they are simply not compelling. The analysis isn’t deep or penetrating, and it doesn’t seriously engage with the full range of relevant sources. Much of it is superficial, often based on misinformation, with incorrect facts and full of fairly shallow arguments that have never really been subjected to rigorous scrutiny. For someone within the Haredi community, it’s often easier, and safer, to avoid these topics altogether. Not thinking about them is preferable, because thinking about them and then realizing how weak the arguments are can be deeply unsettling. That’s why many people would rather not attend these events at all and prefer simply not to engage.
The second reason, and I think this is the more fundamental problem, is that the entire Haredi system rests on Daas Torah as its ultimate backstop. If you’ve ever had a full conversation about these issues with someone Haredi, you’ll recognize the pattern: when their arguments start to fail, they eventually retreat to the claim that “it’s Daas Torah.” If your arguments seem more correct or compelling, the response is that your disagreement is ultimately with the Gedolim; go argue with them. Surely the Gedolim are wise and brilliant, and there must be deep reasons behind their positions, even if we don’t understand them.
But the problem arises when you actually pull back the curtain. When the Wizard of Oz is revealed, when the Gedolim themselves appear publicly and articulate their reasoning, the mystique collapses. Instead of encountering an all-knowing oracle, you often hear weak, superficial, and poorly thought-out arguments. The Gedolim don’t have any hidden truth; their arguments are exactly the same as what the average guy on the street says.
What’s exposed is not hidden wisdom, but a group of elderly men who may possess enormous Torah knowledge, yet who have not seriously engaged in analytical thinking on these issues or had their ideas rigorously tested.
And at that point, you realize there’s nothing there. From the community’s own perspective, it would be far better to keep the oracle hidden, to believe that there is some profound wisdom beyond our comprehension, than to reveal it and expose the fragility of the arguments on which the entire system rests.
With Ner Israel and Lakewood currently in the grips of anti-Israel Haredim where can an Orthodox family send a son in the United States to avoid this contamination.
Comment I left on YWN, to their calling R' Feldman's conduct vis a vis your friend "gevurah.":
Interesting.
I would have thought that a talmid chacham would respond to a kashia, rather than ignore it, ie, “talk over him.”
I would have thought that a talmid chacham would WELCOME hearing a limmud zechus about other yidden (their shailos go to Rav Asher Weiss) rather than the limmud chov he was told by someone else (their shailos go to someone who never learned in a yeshiva).
Or he would, at the very least, seek clarification as to whether he had gotten his facts wrong when being melamed chov.
I really, really don’t like these guys. But I wonder does their extreme so called piety protect them from eventually being called to account by HaShem for causing such fractures in Israel society.
'Eliezer, an older ultra-Orthodox man with a long, bushy beard, was particularly incensed over comments from Rabbi Shlomo Miller, who had told the audience that they were ill-equipped to understand the issues and so should let “the great rabbis decide for us.”
'“I don’t know whether I was listening to Al Sharpton or Adolf Hitler,” he remarked.'
For all of their extensive knowledge and experience they are lacking real world knowledge, a sense of gratitude instead of entitlement. They also need to be reminded that even as leaders they are employees. Maybe time to fire these warped harmful gedolim.
Maybe also time for the authorities to arrest these instigators of civil disorder
This is a great analysis. Now summarise it in a few bullet points on one page with the myth and the facts and distribute it widely including printouts to all those who attend such events
Someone asked me today who I might vote for in the upcoming Israeli elections. I will vote for anyone, and I mean anyone, who promises they will not form a government with the charedim. This entitlement attitude is sickening and beyond a normal debate in a civilized democratice society.
I have come to the conclusion that these hareidim have a deeply malign intent in refusing to serve. They desire the downfall of the State so that only Moshiach will be able to succeed. They are evil, corrupt, and the equivalent of the Dor Midbar who did not merit to enter the Land.
I received this comment from a rabbi who was in attendance:
I was at the event, and one of the things I noticed is how sparse the crowd was. You can even see it in the pictures posted on YWN. It took a long time before the room felt even remotely full. I think one of the reasons for that is that events like this are actually counterproductive for the Haredi community, and there are two main reasons why.
First, when you listen to the arguments being presented by the Gedolim, they are simply not compelling. The analysis isn’t deep or penetrating, and it doesn’t seriously engage with the full range of relevant sources. Much of it is superficial, often based on misinformation, with incorrect facts and full of fairly shallow arguments that have never really been subjected to rigorous scrutiny. For someone within the Haredi community, it’s often easier, and safer, to avoid these topics altogether. Not thinking about them is preferable, because thinking about them and then realizing how weak the arguments are can be deeply unsettling. That’s why many people would rather not attend these events at all and prefer simply not to engage.
The second reason, and I think this is the more fundamental problem, is that the entire Haredi system rests on Daas Torah as its ultimate backstop. If you’ve ever had a full conversation about these issues with someone Haredi, you’ll recognize the pattern: when their arguments start to fail, they eventually retreat to the claim that “it’s Daas Torah.” If your arguments seem more correct or compelling, the response is that your disagreement is ultimately with the Gedolim; go argue with them. Surely the Gedolim are wise and brilliant, and there must be deep reasons behind their positions, even if we don’t understand them.
But the problem arises when you actually pull back the curtain. When the Wizard of Oz is revealed, when the Gedolim themselves appear publicly and articulate their reasoning, the mystique collapses. Instead of encountering an all-knowing oracle, you often hear weak, superficial, and poorly thought-out arguments. The Gedolim don’t have any hidden truth; their arguments are exactly the same as what the average guy on the street says.
What’s exposed is not hidden wisdom, but a group of elderly men who may possess enormous Torah knowledge, yet who have not seriously engaged in analytical thinking on these issues or had their ideas rigorously tested.
And at that point, you realize there’s nothing there. From the community’s own perspective, it would be far better to keep the oracle hidden, to believe that there is some profound wisdom beyond our comprehension, than to reveal it and expose the fragility of the arguments on which the entire system rests.
With Ner Israel and Lakewood currently in the grips of anti-Israel Haredim where can an Orthodox family send a son in the United States to avoid this contamination.
Good question. My answer: Come and join us in Israel.
This was directed to those who want to send a child to a yeshiva very specifically in the US. No disrespect, but this was the intent.
YU?
R. Feldman says, “You’re asking someone to live, to be married, for example, to someone who has a different view of life than you.”
I didn’t realize that the IDF is in the shadchan business.
Comment I left on YWN, to their calling R' Feldman's conduct vis a vis your friend "gevurah.":
Interesting.
I would have thought that a talmid chacham would respond to a kashia, rather than ignore it, ie, “talk over him.”
I would have thought that a talmid chacham would WELCOME hearing a limmud zechus about other yidden (their shailos go to Rav Asher Weiss) rather than the limmud chov he was told by someone else (their shailos go to someone who never learned in a yeshiva).
Or he would, at the very least, seek clarification as to whether he had gotten his facts wrong when being melamed chov.
Yes, very interesting.
I am vomiting up my breakfast.
All these stories of "my friend" and "a boy in my yeshiva's brother " make him sound so uninformed.
I really, really don’t like these guys. But I wonder does their extreme so called piety protect them from eventually being called to account by HaShem for causing such fractures in Israel society.
'Eliezer, an older ultra-Orthodox man with a long, bushy beard, was particularly incensed over comments from Rabbi Shlomo Miller, who had told the audience that they were ill-equipped to understand the issues and so should let “the great rabbis decide for us.”
'“I don’t know whether I was listening to Al Sharpton or Adolf Hitler,” he remarked.'
https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-rabbis-push-english-speakers-to-dodge-idf-draft-worried-they-might-join-up/
For all of their extensive knowledge and experience they are lacking real world knowledge, a sense of gratitude instead of entitlement. They also need to be reminded that even as leaders they are employees. Maybe time to fire these warped harmful gedolim.
Maybe also time for the authorities to arrest these instigators of civil disorder
This is a great analysis. Now summarise it in a few bullet points on one page with the myth and the facts and distribute it widely including printouts to all those who attend such events
Someone asked me today who I might vote for in the upcoming Israeli elections. I will vote for anyone, and I mean anyone, who promises they will not form a government with the charedim. This entitlement attitude is sickening and beyond a normal debate in a civilized democratice society.
A Real Rabbi is concerned with all Jews. Not just Charedim.
We unfortunately don’t have many Gedolem Rav Asher Weiss may be one of the few.
I have come to the conclusion that these hareidim have a deeply malign intent in refusing to serve. They desire the downfall of the State so that only Moshiach will be able to succeed. They are evil, corrupt, and the equivalent of the Dor Midbar who did not merit to enter the Land.