Your posts are going from bad to worse. So here's you're latest brightness - there's nothing wrong with being racist, because it's true! Your brilliance matches Albert Einstein, and your writing capabilities dwarf Mark Twain. You are truly this amazing genius you think you are.
Ok, now since you are so sunken in your raging hatred, there is honestly no reason to point out the ridiculousness of your thesis. Nevertheless, I will give some pointers, in case any of the readers didn't pick up on it themselves. Here are a couple of hints that can help you detect if someone is a racist or not.
1. Obsession
Pointing out true deficiencies in a specific ethnic group, would still qualify you as a racist, if you are particularly obsessed with that group and none other. If you are a reporter that covers B'nai Braq, and you are reporting on a rat problem, that does not necessarily make you a racist. So long as you report on other issues as well, e.g. sanitation schedule, bus changes, weather, etc.
However, if you are a reporter who runs from town to town looking for negative stories about a specific group, that would get you the Richard Spencer Obnoxious Racist Trophy (RSORT).
2. Absurdity
If your arguments pertaining to a specific ethnic group are objectively absurd, that would very likely qualify you as a racist. e.g. suppose you would say that B'nai Braq has a rat problem because they're chareidi, although other chareidi towns are winning awards for their cleanliness. But B'nai Braq is definitely a chareidi issue, other towns are just not real chareidim. So that's an indication that you're indeed a racist. A racist would not even realize how pathetic and demented this even sounds.
3. Double standards.
If you have very high specific standards for a specific ethnic group, and hound them relentlessly based on your invented standards, yet fail to enforce these standards with any other ethnic group, that would also qualify you as a racist. For example, relentlessly attacking chareidim for allegedly not taking everything they teach one trillion percent seriously, yet go AWOL with regards to MODOX, should raise a red flag or two.
4. Mislead
Reporting vague terms to purposely mislead others, is also a red signal. e.g. "B'nai braq is the dirtiest town ever in the past eighty nine trillion years" trying to get your ignorant readers to picture some smelly rotten garbage dump. A reader of yours who would actually visit B'nai braq would likely conclude that there must be 2 different B'nai braq's.
There's lots more to say about your particular nasty obsession with chareidim, but for now I'll leave it at that. Adios.
Personally, I'm less bothered by any racism involved than I am by the sloppiness, disingenuousness, and sheer tabloid style vapidity of the attack. It's just insane to point to attempts to eradicate rats via natural means as some sort of disproof of charedi society's sincerity in their beliefs. It's like pointing out that dati-leumi types sometimes say mean things so all their claims of ahavas yisrael are a farce: 'They only claim to love their fellow Jews. Or maybe they *believe* that they love their fellow Jews. But when it comes to fighting over who gets which slot on a list, all their ahava goes out the window.'
That's about as lucid as using rat-poisoning as a theological talking point is.
I think this is a watershed comment, that (alleged) inconsistency doesn't necessarily show mass insincerity, in this case certainly not.
That in itself is a very significant observation that can stand on its own, but allow me to elaborate. I recently read a Kiruv book published this year that contains among other things the proof of the 'only' 4 animals that have one sign. So far, so what...? But more fascinating is that the author says that he's used the various proofs of his book in lectures totaling thousands of listeners, some religious some not. (I only got the book because one of my children told me what a great speaker he is.)
So here you have what might be termed mass ignorance among the religious and irreligious, both of the author/speaker (I aver that he's sincere and honest) and the readers/audiences. They're clueless of the complications. Thousands don't know about RDNS & his books to the point that this author, himself ignorant, takes to the lecture circuit without fear. (Obviously for others something else is needed.)
How aware then are Bnei Brak Chareidim of any (alleged) inconsistency in their conduct if sometimes they engage in Hishtadlus and sometimes they don't?
Bnei Brak isn't on the list of the world rattiest cities that I'd linked in the previous post, but London is.
1. Chicago
2. Los Angeles
3. London
4. Paris
What does this tell us about the inhabitants of these places? Why are they rattier then Bnei Brak? If you want to give a proper context to this problem, I would think you would look at the broad picture. Instead it was another not very intelligent hatchet job.
My next door chassidishe neighboor was a Kerestirer descendant and I knew about the mouse segula long before it became popular. He and his family didn't take it seriously even though they had a tradition that the maaseh did happen as told and the rebbe's photograph was hanging on the wall. It's mostly taken toungue in cheek as a harmless and fun curiousity, not a big deal.
Slifkin's using the rat problem common to cities to denigrate charedim and paint them negatively with a broad brush is worthy of Der Sturmer and is a new low.
The problem is not criticizing chareidi society. The problem is ignoring the much worse problems in your own society, about much more important things. Alot of the chareidi issues that stem from separatism could be fixed if you guys either:
A. Committed to keeping the Torah rather than deliberately undermining it, or
B. stop pretending that your society is any way Jewish. Of course, that wouldn't cause chareidim to join the secularist army, but it would relieve a lot of tension. When a chareidi calls you guys goyim, you could say "yes we are, and proud of it", which would immediately defuse the situation.
How should one be committed to keep the Torah? What form should the commitment take? If the general population, i.e. chilonim are not committed, should they nevertheless be compelled to do so? How would you obligate such persons to observe your Torah precepts and prohibitions as you see them?
Also, why do you consider Rav Slifkin and his society not Jewish. Doesn’t he observe all the mitzvot and observe the same prohibitions that you do?
Well you are certainly not one of them. The ones who could learn circles around me are generally on my side, and some of them are big fans of Irrationalist Modoxism. The ones Natan's side are generally very far from knowing how to learn at all, and proudly advertise their am ha'aratzus (for example https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/on-knowing-how-to-learn).
So anyone who is Shomer Mitzvot but sees science as a product of creation and sees the world working according to the laws of science that Hashem created is an am haaretz in your view. Wonder how many Rishonim you de facto put into that category.
In your pretend sick world everyone who is not Chareidi or pretend charedi is reform and goyim.And remember even if your hallucination were true on on Yom Kippur we pray with the עבריינים. We are also ערבים זה לזה. You do not reflect Chareidi values!
If you had any brains you would consider the realities of this world and adopt the opinion of the Chazon Ish. Rav Kook saw the Secular who help build the State as starting the process of Teshuvah. You are throwing huge amounts of people into the garbage. Take a leaf out of Chabad's approach to all Jews. The proof is in the amount of Baalei Teshuvah there are. Rav Reuvain Feinstein , Rav Moshe Feinstein's son , told me that we have to keep trying,לא עליך העבודה לגמור.Sure enough many who were not observant or weak in their observance became religious, more observant, etc..
I have no problem with the Chazon Ish, but the first step of Teshuva is admitting you are doing something very wrong, not attacking people who are much more righteous than you. Also, Slifkin is not a tinok shebishba. The CI was not referring to those who spread kefira להכעיס and undermine the Torah, who are responsible for the tinok shebishba situation that exists.
No. The stone throwing, trash burning, Covid breaking, measles spreading, benefit stealing, Meron causing (etc etc etc) chareidim are responsible for today's tinok shenishbah situation and undermining torah with a massive chillul hashem.
Why on earth should any Jew not religious want to become religious, when they see all this beamed into their living rooms? You think they make a chiluk between the various forms of orthodox judaism? They see the behaviour of religious Jews and think fundamentalist ignoramuses - no thank you.
Once upon a time, what went on in charediland stayed in charediland. That is no longer the case.
Of course I know that the secularists have excuses for their behavior. But that's all it is. Excuses. In one way you are right. The tinok shenishba situation is caused in large measure by those who give validation to these excuses, who say "It's all about tikkun olam, as long as you wore a mask during covid, you don't have to keep the rest of the Torah". This was the way it was back at the beginning of the Haskalah, by the maskilim who mocked the uncultured religious Jews, and it is the same way now. אין כל חדש תחת השמש.
So the MO and the DL are not "those who spread kefira להכעיס?!In your opinion their approach is terribly wrong. And in the MO and DL community your approach is wrong or not preferable. The Chareidi Leumi is really Charedi for the most part with a complete embrace of KOOKIAN adherence and loyality to the ideals of religious Zionism. But it is crowned with much Chareidi values and ideals.
Depends which DL. The ones who are really religious are really religious. I don't have much against the Chardal and I find much to admire about them. For example, I very much admire this: https://www.israelhayom.co.il/judaism/judaism-news/article/7668536 This kanous is worthy of chareidim.
I was talking about the LW MO and DL communities who are being led astray by people like Slifkin and many others who are exactly as I describe, that is spreading kefira and undermining the Torah להכעיס.
You mention one segula, Reb Yeshayale, claiming that 'charedim believe in it'. That was plain lies, and you knew it. You went to Chareddi Yeshivos, did you hear it mentioned even once there? Would a single Hanhala member in Yeshivas Shaarei Torah have accepted it?
Yet you mentioned it as true, and twisted it in this post as though there were other segulos mentioned.
You are a sick pathetic ignorant excuse of a human being, and you keep on proving it.
The segula of Reb Shayale the Exterminator was known about for years. The segula of Reb Shayale the Caterer is a new thing. There's even a joke going around that Reb Shayale's job as an exterminator wasn't working out so well, so he quit and is trying his hand as a caterer now. 😉
This post and the previous one illustrate nicely how no matter what the Jews (excuse me - Charedim) do, their haters will always hate them. If they use segulahs, they're irrational fools. But if they use natural means, then they're a bunch of hypocrites. And all this at the very same time that their haters are busy favoring laws for some people but not for others.
Making hate speech illegal is a serious government breach on our rights to speak freely. Once you allow such laws into your society there is no way to contain them and new lines will be constantly drawn.
The same goes for socialism. You want Haredim off of the dole, end the welfare state and allow people to support what they want with their own resources. Once you accept legal theft, you can't complain that the stolen goods are going to groups that you don't support. They were elected by the people to be the "loot distributors" and they will therefore distribute the loot to whom they please.
"Such criticism of charedim could potentially soon indeed be legally classified as a racist hate crime. Yesterday, United Torah Judaism introduced a bill expanding the definition of racism to include a specific reference to charedim, which passed its preliminary reading in the Knesset."
העובר עבירה מתוך מניע של גזענות כהגדרתה בסימן א׳1 או של עוינות כלפי ציבור מחמת דת, קבוצה דתית, מוצא עדתי, נטיה מינית או היותם עובדים זרים, דינו – כפל העונש הקבוע לאותה עבירה או מאסר עשר שנים, הכל לפי העונש הקל יותר.
You can't incite against arabs. You can't incite against gays. You can't incite against Ethiopians. Now you won't be able to incite against charedim either. The horror, I know.
I personally am ambivalent about anti-incitement laws generally, but if there's going to be one on the books for Russians, Druze, Edot Mizrach etc, there's no sane reason why charedim should be open season. As it currently stands, Avigdor Lieberman can say whatever he wants about charedim, but Moshe Gafni must not reply in kind about Moldovans.
This is why people keep winning huge jury verdicts for reverse discrimination. B/c all these laws are founded on the fundamentally Orwellian premise that only some people are entitled to protection from discrimination, but not others.
Off topic (or perhaps on topic): The comment section of this blog has become a sewer, thanks to its being hijacked and monopolized by (I presume) one person, (I presume) writing under different names.
Given that this obsessed person or these persons already have their own blog, could you please ban their comments and instead post a link to his (their?) blog for those who find his (their?) comments of interest?
I am not familiar with any other blog that allows the types of comments left by this happy-go-lucky person (persons), nor any that allows itself to be hijacked like this.
(I do see that we have LOL as well, with his racist and ad hominem comments. LOL, I'm sorry to say this, but you're in the right place!)
Huh? Racist and ad hominem? Not sure what you are referring to here. But Mr. Ohsie, by that gratuitous attack, I know who you are already. Dear me, I'm so sorry you were triggered. Do you feel unsafe now? Sorry about that microaggression.
You seem incapable of seeing beyond your very insular viewpoint, so allow me to enlighten you: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Rabbi Slifkin likes to post vitriolic posts against Charedim, so don't be surprised that Charedim take offense and respond in kind. But for heaven's sake, if you can't see what was so obviously wrong with this post and the last and are just complaining about the comments they generated, I don't think you will ever be capable of understanding this. Nebach. What a snowflake.
Just noticed this response by the racist troll. Lots of people named David in this world. My posts are made under my full name, not pseudonyms as the trolls here use.
So some sort of childish tit-for-tat is it? Bal sikom? Seriously, the real talmidei chachomim, the real choredim al devar hashem, the real bnei torah just ignore slifkin and get on with their lives. Other obsess and find some sort of heter for using the internet and worse, blogs, (surely it's not for parnossoh purposes?) completely against da'as torah - but hey, obedience to da'as torah we know, its selective.
I'm not HappyGoLucky (heck, I'm barely even happy at all). and I don't like Slifkin's attacks on Chareidim neither.
I count!
By the way, when you meet the non-psychotically obsessed raving anti chareidi who *does* like the idea of a blogpost devoted to pointing out nasty things about chareidim, I'd like to meet the guy. Weird idea, that it must be only one guy in the world who doesn't like it... https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/solipsism
“And the claim that there is a charedi phenomenon of caring less about sanitation and believing in the power of segulos to keep rodents away was stated by none other than Rav Yitzchak Zilberstein“
Ah so some nutcases making a claim which is refuted by Charedi leadership is presented in this blog as the mainstream Charedi position.
Besides for the obvious stated by Lou, I would add that R' Zilberstein's nod towards segulos, assuming it wasn't contrived in order not to disrespect some people's customs, is absolutely NOT reflective of the general Chareidi attitude. Most Litvishe people would scoff at the idea of using segulos to get rid of rats. And I know many Chassidim who think the whole thing is pretty ridiculous as well. Either you are completely ignorant of Chareidi society and talking BS, or you are using a belief held in fact by a minority of Chareidim to try and paint all of them as superstitious Neanderthal doofuses. Racism at its best.
Either way, it's time for you to resume those shrink sessions.
Your own words illustrate perfectly the need for anti-Charedi hate speech legislation. For your paint an entire population with broad brush strokes, something you'd never do for any other group. Would you ever speak of blacks as indolent or unintelligent? Would you say women are incapable of bold or creative thinking? Of course not. At most you would say tepid phrases couched within a dozen disclaimers and qualifications, and most likely you'd be afraid to even address the issue at all. Yet you have no compunctions in mocking "charedim" believing in rat segulahs, a patently ridiculous claim. If I were UTJ I would hold up this post in the knesset as a textbook parade example of why legislation is needed. Thanks, NS!
Uh, that's not true at all and you know it. For a few weeks he had some innocent posts with no criticism from "the goon squad". I can see that honesty is not your strong point.
That's not true, as can be seen easily just by looking at some posts within the past month. A well written or innocuous post will receive nothing but kudos or related thoughts and comments. But mean spirited or poorly thought out posts will be (rightly) called out, and even NS groupies like yourself have to admit, there's a lot of those types of posts.
"I’m often asked why Orthodox Jews (not just charedim) tend to be less concerned about the environment, and I think that the answer - that they have other priorities to focus on - is not a terrible thing."
But concern for the environment is not the same as basic cleanliness and sanitation. I still want to see some evidence that rat plague in BB is the cause of citizen's neglect and not a combination of a large population and gov't failure.
The claim that a heightened spiritual sensitivity would override the concern for filthy vermin is ridiculous: "ולא נראה זבוב בבית המטבחים"
Even in the most holy place on Earth, there was obviously a concern to avoid disgusting pests, otherwise there wouldn't be any point to the miracle!
I'm not sure that stupidity coming from UTJ MKs is newsworthy. It might be if the next Litvak Gadol HaDor™ is an anti-Chabad firebrand,
For the record, I made no accusations against you in my comments. I speculated the possibility that chareidim prioritizing other things can be the cause, same as why in Lakewood many don't wear reflectors or why the attitude on climate change and covid-like matters are generally more lax in more religious (and by extension, republican) circles. (Not sharing my personal beliefs, just pointing out the obvious correlation).
The question does stand out though, why did you choose to talk about this issue if not to promote some idea that the 'mystic' ideology fails? While the post itself is perfectly fine; I found almost nothing I disagree with, the implications are obvious, and completely unfounded.
We are big proponents of hishtadlus. We all live in this world. All we seem to disagree on is that to us it's just hishtadlus, an obligation we have, one of many. We get to weigh our obligations when they conflict with each other. As opposed to your view which is that since we live in this world, nothing takes precedence over the natural order and as such there can be no ideal that supersedes, trumps or can be more important than science, because if *we* are actually in charge, no one will ever step if not us.
But then you end up agreeing "that it’s [not] a particularly horrific claim... Orthodox Jews (not just charedim) tend to be less concerned about the environment, [because] they have other priorities to focus on - [which] is not a terrible thing." Isn't this a contradiction to your fight against mysticism?
There is no hishtadlut ! You follow the rules of "Nature",.G-d's way of running the world. Sometimes He might interfere but it is forbidden to rely on miracles. What are you Moshe Rabbanu !
The Rambam emphasized contending with the rules of Nature and not depending on being protected by G-d.This is your obligation. Yes we ask G-d to help us to succeed. But we not expect miracles,that is results radically differing from Nature,Nissim Geluyim.And not even hidden miracles ordinarily.
For the second time, no one said anything about miracles. Second of all, you said, and I quote, "There is no hishtadlut ! " Even if you were correct that the Rambam believed so, which is highly debatable, since again, the alternative we are discussing is not miracles, but even if the Rambam did believe so, Rabbeinu Bachaye is clear in the Chovos Halevavos, which the chareidim follow, that there is hishtadlus and that is how the world runs. Since I am defending the chareidim, unless you deny what the chovos halevavos says, and show why I am misreading or something, you can't fault the chareidim for following his shita. which means there is no attack.
(And I want to point out for the record that the Rambam doesn't deny that we can affect nature directly through our actions, though it may be reserved for the elitist of the elite, see Moreh part 3 perek 51 and the psukim we say every day in the second parsha of Shema)
If it differs from the usual natural cause and effect in nature it is considered a miracle. Actually it is Hkodosh Bruch Who is directing the rules of the world which he wishes us to comply with. Rav Dessler pushed the Hishtadlus view to the point of considering appropriate action to be merely an illusion,of no real consequence.This promotes non- action or inconsequential action. In the real world actions have consequences. We are committed to the Torah snd are willing to sacrifice for it's observance. As Yaacov Avinu who prayed and was afraid of Eds and did not expect Divine protection. There is reward for choosing the Torah but we cannot depend on it in a specific case. צדיק ורע לו רשע וטוב לו. If we could easily see G-d rewarding and punishing according to deeds we would not have real בחירה.In fact one must always fear that our sins may harm us,as Yaaykov Avinu.
The Rambam stressed that one must deal with Nature
What you are describing is exactly what is called hishtadlus (I'm not sure why you said "there is no hishtadlut"), and unless one is on the proper level he truly must deal with nature. We are on the same page. If בטחון leads to non or inconsequential action who are not on the level, which harms those individuals, דמיהם בראשיהם. But if other people are going to the army, and if the army is absolutely not a place for a frum Jew to be in, we are supposed to make a cost/benefit analysis along with שומר מצוה לא ידע דבר רע and all of the other promises Hashem gives for those who are בחקתי תלכו, because Hashem *does* protect those who are here to do His will. We are here to do His will, that's all we are here for. And if we do, He takes care of us. He promises.
Instead of being mad that we aren't all going to the physical army, let's be מתחזק in our עבודת השם and learn with more diligence and Daven with more יראת הרוממות, because that is our army duty.
Your posts are going from bad to worse. So here's you're latest brightness - there's nothing wrong with being racist, because it's true! Your brilliance matches Albert Einstein, and your writing capabilities dwarf Mark Twain. You are truly this amazing genius you think you are.
Ok, now since you are so sunken in your raging hatred, there is honestly no reason to point out the ridiculousness of your thesis. Nevertheless, I will give some pointers, in case any of the readers didn't pick up on it themselves. Here are a couple of hints that can help you detect if someone is a racist or not.
1. Obsession
Pointing out true deficiencies in a specific ethnic group, would still qualify you as a racist, if you are particularly obsessed with that group and none other. If you are a reporter that covers B'nai Braq, and you are reporting on a rat problem, that does not necessarily make you a racist. So long as you report on other issues as well, e.g. sanitation schedule, bus changes, weather, etc.
However, if you are a reporter who runs from town to town looking for negative stories about a specific group, that would get you the Richard Spencer Obnoxious Racist Trophy (RSORT).
2. Absurdity
If your arguments pertaining to a specific ethnic group are objectively absurd, that would very likely qualify you as a racist. e.g. suppose you would say that B'nai Braq has a rat problem because they're chareidi, although other chareidi towns are winning awards for their cleanliness. But B'nai Braq is definitely a chareidi issue, other towns are just not real chareidim. So that's an indication that you're indeed a racist. A racist would not even realize how pathetic and demented this even sounds.
3. Double standards.
If you have very high specific standards for a specific ethnic group, and hound them relentlessly based on your invented standards, yet fail to enforce these standards with any other ethnic group, that would also qualify you as a racist. For example, relentlessly attacking chareidim for allegedly not taking everything they teach one trillion percent seriously, yet go AWOL with regards to MODOX, should raise a red flag or two.
4. Mislead
Reporting vague terms to purposely mislead others, is also a red signal. e.g. "B'nai braq is the dirtiest town ever in the past eighty nine trillion years" trying to get your ignorant readers to picture some smelly rotten garbage dump. A reader of yours who would actually visit B'nai braq would likely conclude that there must be 2 different B'nai braq's.
There's lots more to say about your particular nasty obsession with chareidim, but for now I'll leave it at that. Adios.
"Adios."
And you just ruined a nice rant by concluding with a culturally appropriated valediction.
Personally, I'm less bothered by any racism involved than I am by the sloppiness, disingenuousness, and sheer tabloid style vapidity of the attack. It's just insane to point to attempts to eradicate rats via natural means as some sort of disproof of charedi society's sincerity in their beliefs. It's like pointing out that dati-leumi types sometimes say mean things so all their claims of ahavas yisrael are a farce: 'They only claim to love their fellow Jews. Or maybe they *believe* that they love their fellow Jews. But when it comes to fighting over who gets which slot on a list, all their ahava goes out the window.'
That's about as lucid as using rat-poisoning as a theological talking point is.
I think this is a watershed comment, that (alleged) inconsistency doesn't necessarily show mass insincerity, in this case certainly not.
That in itself is a very significant observation that can stand on its own, but allow me to elaborate. I recently read a Kiruv book published this year that contains among other things the proof of the 'only' 4 animals that have one sign. So far, so what...? But more fascinating is that the author says that he's used the various proofs of his book in lectures totaling thousands of listeners, some religious some not. (I only got the book because one of my children told me what a great speaker he is.)
So here you have what might be termed mass ignorance among the religious and irreligious, both of the author/speaker (I aver that he's sincere and honest) and the readers/audiences. They're clueless of the complications. Thousands don't know about RDNS & his books to the point that this author, himself ignorant, takes to the lecture circuit without fear. (Obviously for others something else is needed.)
How aware then are Bnei Brak Chareidim of any (alleged) inconsistency in their conduct if sometimes they engage in Hishtadlus and sometimes they don't?
This exactly.
Bnei Brak isn't on the list of the world rattiest cities that I'd linked in the previous post, but London is.
1. Chicago
2. Los Angeles
3. London
4. Paris
What does this tell us about the inhabitants of these places? Why are they rattier then Bnei Brak? If you want to give a proper context to this problem, I would think you would look at the broad picture. Instead it was another not very intelligent hatchet job.
My next door chassidishe neighboor was a Kerestirer descendant and I knew about the mouse segula long before it became popular. He and his family didn't take it seriously even though they had a tradition that the maaseh did happen as told and the rebbe's photograph was hanging on the wall. It's mostly taken toungue in cheek as a harmless and fun curiousity, not a big deal.
Slifkin's using the rat problem common to cities to denigrate charedim and paint them negatively with a broad brush is worthy of Der Sturmer and is a new low.
The problem is not criticizing chareidi society. The problem is ignoring the much worse problems in your own society, about much more important things. Alot of the chareidi issues that stem from separatism could be fixed if you guys either:
A. Committed to keeping the Torah rather than deliberately undermining it, or
B. stop pretending that your society is any way Jewish. Of course, that wouldn't cause chareidim to join the secularist army, but it would relieve a lot of tension. When a chareidi calls you guys goyim, you could say "yes we are, and proud of it", which would immediately defuse the situation.
@HappyGo
How should one be committed to keep the Torah? What form should the commitment take? If the general population, i.e. chilonim are not committed, should they nevertheless be compelled to do so? How would you obligate such persons to observe your Torah precepts and prohibitions as you see them?
Also, why do you consider Rav Slifkin and his society not Jewish. Doesn’t he observe all the mitzvot and observe the same prohibitions that you do?
Lol, there are religious Zionists who could learn circles around you
Truly one of your dumber responses.
Well you are certainly not one of them. The ones who could learn circles around me are generally on my side, and some of them are big fans of Irrationalist Modoxism. The ones Natan's side are generally very far from knowing how to learn at all, and proudly advertise their am ha'aratzus (for example https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/on-knowing-how-to-learn).
Your a good Charedi computer but you don't have basic understanding what it is about. You're the Am Haatetz.
So anyone who is Shomer Mitzvot but sees science as a product of creation and sees the world working according to the laws of science that Hashem created is an am haaretz in your view. Wonder how many Rishonim you de facto put into that category.
This comment makes no sense
Unfortunate for you that it does not compute
In your pretend sick world everyone who is not Chareidi or pretend charedi is reform and goyim.And remember even if your hallucination were true on on Yom Kippur we pray with the עבריינים. We are also ערבים זה לזה. You do not reflect Chareidi values!
The secularists are not עבריינים, they are simply a non-Jewish society. They are מוממרים. At best the Chazon Ish said they are a tinok shenishba.
If you had any brains you would consider the realities of this world and adopt the opinion of the Chazon Ish. Rav Kook saw the Secular who help build the State as starting the process of Teshuvah. You are throwing huge amounts of people into the garbage. Take a leaf out of Chabad's approach to all Jews. The proof is in the amount of Baalei Teshuvah there are. Rav Reuvain Feinstein , Rav Moshe Feinstein's son , told me that we have to keep trying,לא עליך העבודה לגמור.Sure enough many who were not observant or weak in their observance became religious, more observant, etc..
I have no problem with the Chazon Ish, but the first step of Teshuva is admitting you are doing something very wrong, not attacking people who are much more righteous than you. Also, Slifkin is not a tinok shebishba. The CI was not referring to those who spread kefira להכעיס and undermine the Torah, who are responsible for the tinok shebishba situation that exists.
No. The stone throwing, trash burning, Covid breaking, measles spreading, benefit stealing, Meron causing (etc etc etc) chareidim are responsible for today's tinok shenishbah situation and undermining torah with a massive chillul hashem.
Why on earth should any Jew not religious want to become religious, when they see all this beamed into their living rooms? You think they make a chiluk between the various forms of orthodox judaism? They see the behaviour of religious Jews and think fundamentalist ignoramuses - no thank you.
Once upon a time, what went on in charediland stayed in charediland. That is no longer the case.
Of course I know that the secularists have excuses for their behavior. But that's all it is. Excuses. In one way you are right. The tinok shenishba situation is caused in large measure by those who give validation to these excuses, who say "It's all about tikkun olam, as long as you wore a mask during covid, you don't have to keep the rest of the Torah". This was the way it was back at the beginning of the Haskalah, by the maskilim who mocked the uncultured religious Jews, and it is the same way now. אין כל חדש תחת השמש.
So the MO and the DL are not "those who spread kefira להכעיס?!In your opinion their approach is terribly wrong. And in the MO and DL community your approach is wrong or not preferable. The Chareidi Leumi is really Charedi for the most part with a complete embrace of KOOKIAN adherence and loyality to the ideals of religious Zionism. But it is crowned with much Chareidi values and ideals.
Depends which DL. The ones who are really religious are really religious. I don't have much against the Chardal and I find much to admire about them. For example, I very much admire this: https://www.israelhayom.co.il/judaism/judaism-news/article/7668536 This kanous is worthy of chareidim.
I was talking about the LW MO and DL communities who are being led astray by people like Slifkin and many others who are exactly as I describe, that is spreading kefira and undermining the Torah להכעיס.
Your mendacity never fails.
You mention one segula, Reb Yeshayale, claiming that 'charedim believe in it'. That was plain lies, and you knew it. You went to Chareddi Yeshivos, did you hear it mentioned even once there? Would a single Hanhala member in Yeshivas Shaarei Torah have accepted it?
Yet you mentioned it as true, and twisted it in this post as though there were other segulos mentioned.
You are a sick pathetic ignorant excuse of a human being, and you keep on proving it.
Noone mentioned it in Yeshiva because it wasn't known at all 20, or even 10, years ago
It has exploded into popularity in the last 5 or so years. This is undeniable
The segula of Reb Shayale the Exterminator was known about for years. The segula of Reb Shayale the Caterer is a new thing. There's even a joke going around that Reb Shayale's job as an exterminator wasn't working out so well, so he quit and is trying his hand as a caterer now. 😉
And don't kid yourself, it's not a chareidi thing. If anything, secularists are VERY into segulos. https://easy.co.il/list/Astrology-and-Mysticism?region=7
Ah yes, the classic yeshivish response 'the goyim do it to'. Usually used to justify fraud in some shape or form.
Completely overlooking that chareidim claim to be better than everybody else. The Spitz. The torah team. The most authentic form of judaism today.
Do you have a problem saying אשר בחר בנו מכל עם?
No. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
This post and the previous one illustrate nicely how no matter what the Jews (excuse me - Charedim) do, their haters will always hate them. If they use segulahs, they're irrational fools. But if they use natural means, then they're a bunch of hypocrites. And all this at the very same time that their haters are busy favoring laws for some people but not for others.
Making hate speech illegal is a serious government breach on our rights to speak freely. Once you allow such laws into your society there is no way to contain them and new lines will be constantly drawn.
The same goes for socialism. You want Haredim off of the dole, end the welfare state and allow people to support what they want with their own resources. Once you accept legal theft, you can't complain that the stolen goods are going to groups that you don't support. They were elected by the people to be the "loot distributors" and they will therefore distribute the loot to whom they please.
#FreeIsrael
#EndSocialism
"Such criticism of charedim could potentially soon indeed be legally classified as a racist hate crime. Yesterday, United Torah Judaism introduced a bill expanding the definition of racism to include a specific reference to charedim, which passed its preliminary reading in the Knesset."
As you noted, the law is an extension of one already on the books . https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A7_%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9F#%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A7_%D7%97_%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%9F_%D7%902
העובר עבירה מתוך מניע של גזענות כהגדרתה בסימן א׳1 או של עוינות כלפי ציבור מחמת דת, קבוצה דתית, מוצא עדתי, נטיה מינית או היותם עובדים זרים, דינו – כפל העונש הקבוע לאותה עבירה או מאסר עשר שנים, הכל לפי העונש הקל יותר.
You can't incite against arabs. You can't incite against gays. You can't incite against Ethiopians. Now you won't be able to incite against charedim either. The horror, I know.
I personally am ambivalent about anti-incitement laws generally, but if there's going to be one on the books for Russians, Druze, Edot Mizrach etc, there's no sane reason why charedim should be open season. As it currently stands, Avigdor Lieberman can say whatever he wants about charedim, but Moshe Gafni must not reply in kind about Moldovans.
Well said. Laws for all or Laws for none.
This is why people keep winning huge jury verdicts for reverse discrimination. B/c all these laws are founded on the fundamentally Orwellian premise that only some people are entitled to protection from discrimination, but not others.
Worth a watch:
https://www.kikar.co.il/political-news/rw8xsj
Hate crime has to be hardest law to rule against. Its why the UN struggle with a definition.
Off topic (or perhaps on topic): The comment section of this blog has become a sewer, thanks to its being hijacked and monopolized by (I presume) one person, (I presume) writing under different names.
Given that this obsessed person or these persons already have their own blog, could you please ban their comments and instead post a link to his (their?) blog for those who find his (their?) comments of interest?
I am not familiar with any other blog that allows the types of comments left by this happy-go-lucky person (persons), nor any that allows itself to be hijacked like this.
(I do see that we have LOL as well, with his racist and ad hominem comments. LOL, I'm sorry to say this, but you're in the right place!)
Huh? Racist and ad hominem? Not sure what you are referring to here. But Mr. Ohsie, by that gratuitous attack, I know who you are already. Dear me, I'm so sorry you were triggered. Do you feel unsafe now? Sorry about that microaggression.
You seem incapable of seeing beyond your very insular viewpoint, so allow me to enlighten you: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Rabbi Slifkin likes to post vitriolic posts against Charedim, so don't be surprised that Charedim take offense and respond in kind. But for heaven's sake, if you can't see what was so obviously wrong with this post and the last and are just complaining about the comments they generated, I don't think you will ever be capable of understanding this. Nebach. What a snowflake.
Just noticed this response by the racist troll. Lots of people named David in this world. My posts are made under my full name, not pseudonyms as the trolls here use.
And others.
Yes, people use pseudonyms for legitimate reasons as well, not only for racist trolling. The racist troll claimed I was hiding.
So some sort of childish tit-for-tat is it? Bal sikom? Seriously, the real talmidei chachomim, the real choredim al devar hashem, the real bnei torah just ignore slifkin and get on with their lives. Other obsess and find some sort of heter for using the internet and worse, blogs, (surely it's not for parnossoh purposes?) completely against da'as torah - but hey, obedience to da'as torah we know, its selective.
Sorry but you overwhelmingly lost the vote.
Besides, Dr Slifkin’s greatest virtue here is his remarkable tolerance to sustain these attacks. Give credit where credit is due.
You call the hard truth “the sewer”, Mr Oscar the grouch, living in the garbage dump of falsehood can do that to you.
What makes you think it's all one person? We are not. Does it surprise you that Natan has many opponents? He peddles in hatred of the Torah community.
In any case, looks like you didn't get the memo https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/on-being-attacked-by-sharks
I'm not HappyGoLucky (heck, I'm barely even happy at all). and I don't like Slifkin's attacks on Chareidim neither.
I count!
By the way, when you meet the non-psychotically obsessed raving anti chareidi who *does* like the idea of a blogpost devoted to pointing out nasty things about chareidim, I'd like to meet the guy. Weird idea, that it must be only one guy in the world who doesn't like it... https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/solipsism
if the comment section has become a sewer, then there is no analogy that can describe the article section
“And the claim that there is a charedi phenomenon of caring less about sanitation and believing in the power of segulos to keep rodents away was stated by none other than Rav Yitzchak Zilberstein“
Ah so some nutcases making a claim which is refuted by Charedi leadership is presented in this blog as the mainstream Charedi position.
Objective criticism that’s all folks.
uh, R. Zilberstein himself says that there are segulos.
Uh, he said himself they are secondary to focusing on the root cause.
Besides for the obvious stated by Lou, I would add that R' Zilberstein's nod towards segulos, assuming it wasn't contrived in order not to disrespect some people's customs, is absolutely NOT reflective of the general Chareidi attitude. Most Litvishe people would scoff at the idea of using segulos to get rid of rats. And I know many Chassidim who think the whole thing is pretty ridiculous as well. Either you are completely ignorant of Chareidi society and talking BS, or you are using a belief held in fact by a minority of Chareidim to try and paint all of them as superstitious Neanderthal doofuses. Racism at its best.
Either way, it's time for you to resume those shrink sessions.
Who does kupat ha'ir market to?
Dopes. I actually haven't seen their materials in a while, do they still advertise?
I dunno. Still looking for a replacement to RCK maybe.
That is true, though in defense of R. Zilberstein we do find supernatural methods and deeper causations of infestation in the ירושלמי דמאי א ג
רִבִּי פִינְחָס בֶּן יָאִיר אֲזַל לְחַד אֲתַר אֲתוּן לְגַבֵּיהּ אָֽמְרוּן לֵיהּ עַכְבָּרָיָא אֲכַל עִיבּוּרָן. גָּזַר עֲלֵיהֹן וְצַמְתּוּן שָׁרוּן מְצַפְצְפִין אֲמַר לוֹן יָֽדְעִין אַתּוּן מַה אִינּוּן אָֽמְרִין אָֽמְרוּ לֵיהּ לָא. אֲמַר לוֹן אָֽמְרוּ דְּלָא מְתַקְּנָא. אָֽמְרוּ לֵיהּ עוֹרְבָן וְעָֽרְבוֹן וְלָא אַנְכּוּן.
However obviously that comes after focusing on the natural causes, which in that case obviously wasn’t being effective.
Your own words illustrate perfectly the need for anti-Charedi hate speech legislation. For your paint an entire population with broad brush strokes, something you'd never do for any other group. Would you ever speak of blacks as indolent or unintelligent? Would you say women are incapable of bold or creative thinking? Of course not. At most you would say tepid phrases couched within a dozen disclaimers and qualifications, and most likely you'd be afraid to even address the issue at all. Yet you have no compunctions in mocking "charedim" believing in rat segulahs, a patently ridiculous claim. If I were UTJ I would hold up this post in the knesset as a textbook parade example of why legislation is needed. Thanks, NS!
"This earned me some harsh responses."
THAT earned you harsh responses? Even the most innocent post of yours is going to bring out the goon squad.
Uh, that's not true at all and you know it. For a few weeks he had some innocent posts with no criticism from "the goon squad". I can see that honesty is not your strong point.
That's not true, as can be seen easily just by looking at some posts within the past month. A well written or innocuous post will receive nothing but kudos or related thoughts and comments. But mean spirited or poorly thought out posts will be (rightly) called out, and even NS groupies like yourself have to admit, there's a lot of those types of posts.
"I’m often asked why Orthodox Jews (not just charedim) tend to be less concerned about the environment, and I think that the answer - that they have other priorities to focus on - is not a terrible thing."
But concern for the environment is not the same as basic cleanliness and sanitation. I still want to see some evidence that rat plague in BB is the cause of citizen's neglect and not a combination of a large population and gov't failure.
The claim that a heightened spiritual sensitivity would override the concern for filthy vermin is ridiculous: "ולא נראה זבוב בבית המטבחים"
Even in the most holy place on Earth, there was obviously a concern to avoid disgusting pests, otherwise there wouldn't be any point to the miracle!
I'm not sure that stupidity coming from UTJ MKs is newsworthy. It might be if the next Litvak Gadol HaDor™ is an anti-Chabad firebrand,
This is hilarious, coming from a guy who claimed orthodox Jews were racists, and that criticism of Obama was just disguised racism.
For the record, I made no accusations against you in my comments. I speculated the possibility that chareidim prioritizing other things can be the cause, same as why in Lakewood many don't wear reflectors or why the attitude on climate change and covid-like matters are generally more lax in more religious (and by extension, republican) circles. (Not sharing my personal beliefs, just pointing out the obvious correlation).
The question does stand out though, why did you choose to talk about this issue if not to promote some idea that the 'mystic' ideology fails? While the post itself is perfectly fine; I found almost nothing I disagree with, the implications are obvious, and completely unfounded.
We are big proponents of hishtadlus. We all live in this world. All we seem to disagree on is that to us it's just hishtadlus, an obligation we have, one of many. We get to weigh our obligations when they conflict with each other. As opposed to your view which is that since we live in this world, nothing takes precedence over the natural order and as such there can be no ideal that supersedes, trumps or can be more important than science, because if *we* are actually in charge, no one will ever step if not us.
But then you end up agreeing "that it’s [not] a particularly horrific claim... Orthodox Jews (not just charedim) tend to be less concerned about the environment, [because] they have other priorities to focus on - [which] is not a terrible thing." Isn't this a contradiction to your fight against mysticism?
There is no hishtadlut ! You follow the rules of "Nature",.G-d's way of running the world. Sometimes He might interfere but it is forbidden to rely on miracles. What are you Moshe Rabbanu !
No one is relying on miracles. Did you ever read שער הבטחון in the Chovos Halevavos? Sounds like you need a refresher on Bitachon 101
The Rambam emphasized contending with the rules of Nature and not depending on being protected by G-d.This is your obligation. Yes we ask G-d to help us to succeed. But we not expect miracles,that is results radically differing from Nature,Nissim Geluyim.And not even hidden miracles ordinarily.
For the second time, no one said anything about miracles. Second of all, you said, and I quote, "There is no hishtadlut ! " Even if you were correct that the Rambam believed so, which is highly debatable, since again, the alternative we are discussing is not miracles, but even if the Rambam did believe so, Rabbeinu Bachaye is clear in the Chovos Halevavos, which the chareidim follow, that there is hishtadlus and that is how the world runs. Since I am defending the chareidim, unless you deny what the chovos halevavos says, and show why I am misreading or something, you can't fault the chareidim for following his shita. which means there is no attack.
(And I want to point out for the record that the Rambam doesn't deny that we can affect nature directly through our actions, though it may be reserved for the elitist of the elite, see Moreh part 3 perek 51 and the psukim we say every day in the second parsha of Shema)
If it differs from the usual natural cause and effect in nature it is considered a miracle. Actually it is Hkodosh Bruch Who is directing the rules of the world which he wishes us to comply with. Rav Dessler pushed the Hishtadlus view to the point of considering appropriate action to be merely an illusion,of no real consequence.This promotes non- action or inconsequential action. In the real world actions have consequences. We are committed to the Torah snd are willing to sacrifice for it's observance. As Yaacov Avinu who prayed and was afraid of Eds and did not expect Divine protection. There is reward for choosing the Torah but we cannot depend on it in a specific case. צדיק ורע לו רשע וטוב לו. If we could easily see G-d rewarding and punishing according to deeds we would not have real בחירה.In fact one must always fear that our sins may harm us,as Yaaykov Avinu.
The Rambam stressed that one must deal with Nature
What you are describing is exactly what is called hishtadlus (I'm not sure why you said "there is no hishtadlut"), and unless one is on the proper level he truly must deal with nature. We are on the same page. If בטחון leads to non or inconsequential action who are not on the level, which harms those individuals, דמיהם בראשיהם. But if other people are going to the army, and if the army is absolutely not a place for a frum Jew to be in, we are supposed to make a cost/benefit analysis along with שומר מצוה לא ידע דבר רע and all of the other promises Hashem gives for those who are בחקתי תלכו, because Hashem *does* protect those who are here to do His will. We are here to do His will, that's all we are here for. And if we do, He takes care of us. He promises.
Instead of being mad that we aren't all going to the physical army, let's be מתחזק in our עבודת השם and learn with more diligence and Daven with more יראת הרוממות, because that is our army duty.