Looks to me that you are responding to Weaver who used the word “fool”; but it looks like Weaver was responding to Ezra, not RNS.
Incidentally, Ezra said “Movies are goyish,” and Weaver replied “wisdom is universal”. I doubt he meant “wisdom is (from) Universal (Studios),” but sometimes it is. Some of those writers, directors, actors, etc. are genius.
I have a lot of words but won't use most of them. Suffice it to say that
1) This movie was not written with Jews in mind. The issues facing Koreans, Chinese, and hundreds of other groups are not the same as the ones facing Jews. If you want to have that discussion it will take a while.
2) It is just proud of fifty years since racial purity laws in the US were overturned and it became legal to intermarry. And it was only a couple decades earlier that Germany's Nuremberg racial laws were removed by fire and sword. i do not want eirher to return. No Jew should.
3) Other than being a member of the Nation of Israel what are the "strengths" of inbreeding to which you are referring, Rabbi? They are not health or intelligence or physical strength or moral fiber. And we yidden pay a terrible price due to genetic diseases, especially the Ashkenazim. when premarital DNA testing is routine because of genetic diseases things have gone dangerously wrong from a purely biological standpoint.
4) At other points in history what constituted intermarriage and the barriers to it was different than today's halacha. A different discussion
There is some benefit to high levels of inbreeding, surprisingly. There is a greater chance of "matching" with someone genetically for organ transplants within the Jewish community because of how closely connected we are genetically. I was zocheh to be a bone marrow donor, and it's likely because of my genetics.
Not that racial purity laws are a good thing, is or discriminations justified because of mixed genetics, but this is a outright benefit to nondiverse genetics.
Vanishingly small compared to the genetic diseases we suffer as a population. And vanishing further now that genetic databases are a thing. I was matched as a premie donor based on the Red Cross records
Please don't conflate legal freedom with what is right to do. Yes, people should be free to choose. No, it doesn't mean it is the correct choice to make.
The arguments for intermarriage of Jews is not different than that of Koreans. Also, even though the director of the movie is Korean married to a non-Korean, and his marriage was the foremost influence on the movie, Jews are well-represented at Pixar. I would be surprised if the Jewish ancestry of writers there had no influence on the movie.
C) Don't worry, intermarriage is going strong in the US and bringing all the new ideas along.
D) It is a dispute in the Talmud if it is Rabbinic or not but I Shulchan Aruch (even ezer 16) it is final to be Biblical. Anyway, I think you have a different definition in what you consider useful.
I’d stick with the dispute in the Talmud. Codification of the law from Rambam through Shulchan Aruch is arguably responsible for a lot of our problems. We have elevated Shulchan Aruch into being the final word on so many things that in effect many are really worshipping Shulchan Aruch rather than God.
But until leading thinkers in the orthodox world can escape the trapped paradigm they are in, I’m afraid that the genuine pursuit of truth and knowledge will have to re left to those already outside the paradigm.
It's pretty clear Deuteronomy did not look favorably on intermarriage, and nor did Ezra or Kings or pretty much the rest of the Tanach. Inasmuch as any books are pro-intermarriage, it is only if the intermarrying person completely gives up their old non-Judean identity. The Hollywood idea of people of two different backgrounds coming together and forming a family, raising the children with traditions and customs drawn from both sides of the family is very much against the Torah.
The moment there is a movie about Wade going to live among the Fire tribe, learning the Fire language, and raising little kindlings, then you can talk to me about how the prohibition on intermarriage is only Rabbinic.
From personal experience, I concur that my own "intermarriage" has brought TONS of amazing new ideas and perspectives to both ourselves and our extended families. I am not saying that is reason enough for everybody to do the same. For 1, nobody is the "other" to every1 else. There r no victims.
Could equally be about intra-marriage: Secular v. Religious, Sephardic/Mizrachi v. Ashkenazi, BaalTeshuvah v. 'organic' Jews. Black v. White Jews.
I see and hear constant excuses for such relationships not to happen in order not to 'blend' cultures 'out of existence', rather than embrace the syncretistic elements.
I don't think there is any particular deep value in Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Yemenite culture. There is nothing wrong with them, and if anyone wants to work to keep them alive, go ahead. But if they eventually die out through assimilation to a general Jewish culture that keeps some elements of all of them, that's a perfectly fine outcome from my perspective. Many Jewish cultures have already died out this way (how many of us speak Aramaic?), why would another few make a difference? So if an Ashkenazi and Sephardi meet and find they are good for each other, by all means go ahead and get married! Similarly for other cultural differences like black/white, BT/FFB.
I do think there is deep value in Jewish religion. If Judaism were to die out and replaced by a generic American culture that ate bagels and used the Yiddish word for "penis" but was otherwise non-Jewish, that would be a tragedy. And so in general I don't think religious Jews should marry people who are not religious Jews, because it tends strongly to the dilution of Jewish identity and commitment.
Basically it comes down to culture vs values. You compromise on culture, you don't compromise on values.
Mizrahi, Sefardi, Indian, Central Asian, Ashkenazi et al are cultural adaptations to Jews living under different circumstances. There is nothing magical or sacred about any of them. Except for the traditions of Ethiopian Jews which are almost certainly closer to those of our distant ancestors.
Ethiopian Jews have very little in common with our ancestors, especially their influence from Christians. What makes you think their traditions are better? cuz they wear turbans like in the Temple?
I don't disagree with you, but I use it to illustrate how such barriers exist even WITHIN Judaism too and that people like you or me have no issue with such differences, but others very much do. Having said that, there ARE fundamental differences of approach to Judaism from within such sectarian / ethnic streams and where minhag takes on the veil of rigidity. For example, I prefer the more flexible and open approach I would associate with North African Judaism (the food too btw) to the rigidness and IMO dourness of European Haredism. Generalization I know - but just illustrative. By the same notion, I am disinclined to identify or respect the new syncretistic Judaism manifested in messianic, 'blood and soil' national-religious streams, for example. If that is the future if Judaism (and I think it is), then I'm out.
My Mother, a"h, believed, though it was not quite halakha, that Litvaks and Glitzianers should not intermarry. She lived to see a more "serious" intermarriage among her offspring.
Sounds like this movie is great. That is, a great opportunity for a parent to discuss these questions with your children: what makes us unique as Jews, and how do we impact the world? How does our unique message become enhanced or diluted with exposure to others? What do we have to gain from the outside world, and what should we protect ourselves from? Movies can be great springboards for these important discussions
Absolutely correct. All the valid concerns raised by RNS here, he can also discuss with his children. Parents should not fear discussing important concerns and questions with their kids.
Rather it’s the not discussing things and putting blinders on and burying one’s head in the sand pretending the wider world or outside perspectives do not exist that often lead to the biggest problems.
The point is more what happened in the past 2 decades than the past 2 centuries. The challenges are different and the 'blinders' people are doing far far better currently than the 'non-blinders'. Over the past 2 centuries they've vastly improved their game. It's an 'in' community for continuity.
Orthodox retention has improved a lot over the past 100 years. There are various reasons for that, but one reason is improved education. And the communities nowadays with the highest retention also have the most insular education (though they sacrifice other things with this approach)
"And if intermarriage between Earth, Air, Fire and Water becomes acceptable, how long does it take before the divisions disappear entirely? Sure, if your goal is a melting pot then it doesn’t matter so much, and it’s better to have everyone be the same. But the premise of the film was that the unique characteristics of the elements were actually valuable. How would these characteristics remain, if they are blended out of existence?" 1) I think it is fine if individuals of tribes, cultures etc: want to preserve their tribe, culture etc: However, I am against forcing individuals not to intermarry. It is unlikely every member of the tribe will intermarry, so the argument no body should intermarry b'cause then the tribe will disappear is in general very weak. Only in special circumstances can I see the validity of such an argument. Very rarely will I support the notion that two people in love should not marry just because of an alleged threat to the tribes survival. 2) Where in the Torah does it say that in general you should not intermarry ? If I recall, the prohibition was for intermarriage only with certain ancient near cultures-tribes.
Lennon was talking about communism (he said his song was "virtually The Communist Manifesto"), and we know that in practice communism didn't turn out to be a utopia.
I think my father had a similar critique about (1989's) *The Little Mermaid*. And the moral of the story there is "tick off your parents and disrespect your people, but eventually they'll come around and agree with you anyhow."
Hollywood has moved to wokeness awhile ago. My son and daughter-in-law only let their kids see a very few movies that they have vetted before. Mostly they watch old movies.
Seems fairly obvious that this is the underlying message. The idea that 'everyone would be the same' is not only logically impossible, no one truly desires it, or expects such an outcome. At the risk of sounding provocative, it is race supremacists (esp. white supremacists) who use the argument that 'everyone would be the same' (read: brown) as a core thrust against inter-racial/cultural relations.
Thanks to mass communications and social media the world is turning into a global pinpoint. Given a few more decades, perhaps 50 years, differences will disappear and hatreds based on frivolous externalities will disappear. The human genome is rich enough to supply mankind's diversity without artificial divisions.
Assimilated Nemo sounds a blast! lol...Goy Story...that's brilliant. Aren't all kids animated movies about social rejection and then be accepted? The classic Hero's journey? You could read religious overtones into any of them.
Seems like the guttural fear that many observant Jews have that their Judaism is not strong enough to counter basic, almost docile narratives around humanity and human impulses to meet and partner with people outside their core beliefs. Most people view this as a net positive and a manner to resolve ethnic conflict. Other faiths see such things as existential threats.
Seems that people here are worried not about themselves, but about their kids. They know that while it's easy to teach kids information, it's hard to teach them values and ideals. They also know that the pull of a romantic relationship is so strong it often overwhelms all other values.
כל הכבוד! That is what the Tanach is all about. That is personal spiritual development. That if studied properly will help us and our future descendants remain faithful to the Torah.
A friend of mine became a BT (even though he was already married to a gentile and had teen children.). He gave it up, eventually. He said that “Judaism will never die,” because - like Marxism, or the Enlightenment - people will forever study it as a founding world religion. I thought as a challenge to continuity, that was an interesting counterpoint.
This makes total sense -- and Judaism is full of contradictions in this regard. When I grew up, I was educated at a Jewish secondary school, where Judaics was taught by a Lubavitcher. He said not to worry about how many Jews there are, because even if there was only 100 Jews in the world, Hashem's promises would be fulfilled and that Judaism will 'never perish'. The other extreme is the outrageous and insulting geschrei that assimilation is akin to doing the work of Hitler - esp. common in North America amongst certain types.
I have gone OTD from frum to nearly fully secular. I do not know the future, but this transition has worked for me. No matter what, I assure every1 that Hitler's plans and dreams played no part in my decision making.
Movies are goyish.
The past time of Torah true Jews ought to be a Torah true one, not Pixar, Hollywood, and the rest.
Your problems wouldn't be problems if you raised your children properly. Then they likely wouldn't know or care about such stupidities.
Silly me thought that wasting time on the internet, like you are, is goyish.
On the contrary, wisdom is universal; but alas, you are a fool.
depends on what you call wisdom.
it aint coming from the movies.
Sometimes it does.
U have no legitimate reason to call Natan a fool. Why do u do so, except u r wrongfully trying to insult him?
Howard,
Looks to me that you are responding to Weaver who used the word “fool”; but it looks like Weaver was responding to Ezra, not RNS.
Incidentally, Ezra said “Movies are goyish,” and Weaver replied “wisdom is universal”. I doubt he meant “wisdom is (from) Universal (Studios),” but sometimes it is. Some of those writers, directors, actors, etc. are genius.
I, and others, should take better care to address commenters by name. This blog is not designed well enough to be able to tell by position alone.
"pastime", not "past time"
Clearly Ezra isn’t wasting his time on education….
"Clearly, Ezra...", not "Clearly Ezra...".
This thread is funny!
“This thread is funny!” or “This thread is funny?” ?
It Could be...BFD!
I have a lot of words but won't use most of them. Suffice it to say that
1) This movie was not written with Jews in mind. The issues facing Koreans, Chinese, and hundreds of other groups are not the same as the ones facing Jews. If you want to have that discussion it will take a while.
2) It is just proud of fifty years since racial purity laws in the US were overturned and it became legal to intermarry. And it was only a couple decades earlier that Germany's Nuremberg racial laws were removed by fire and sword. i do not want eirher to return. No Jew should.
3) Other than being a member of the Nation of Israel what are the "strengths" of inbreeding to which you are referring, Rabbi? They are not health or intelligence or physical strength or moral fiber. And we yidden pay a terrible price due to genetic diseases, especially the Ashkenazim. when premarital DNA testing is routine because of genetic diseases things have gone dangerously wrong from a purely biological standpoint.
4) At other points in history what constituted intermarriage and the barriers to it was different than today's halacha. A different discussion
There is some benefit to high levels of inbreeding, surprisingly. There is a greater chance of "matching" with someone genetically for organ transplants within the Jewish community because of how closely connected we are genetically. I was zocheh to be a bone marrow donor, and it's likely because of my genetics.
Not that racial purity laws are a good thing, is or discriminations justified because of mixed genetics, but this is a outright benefit to nondiverse genetics.
Vanishingly small compared to the genetic diseases we suffer as a population. And vanishing further now that genetic databases are a thing. I was matched as a premie donor based on the Red Cross records
I disagree with your premise, Rami, but I applaud and admire your decision to be an organ donor.
Please don't conflate legal freedom with what is right to do. Yes, people should be free to choose. No, it doesn't mean it is the correct choice to make.
You are correct that they are distinct; but especially when it’s in their interests to do so, people often conflate them.
The arguments for intermarriage of Jews is not different than that of Koreans. Also, even though the director of the movie is Korean married to a non-Korean, and his marriage was the foremost influence on the movie, Jews are well-represented at Pixar. I would be surprised if the Jewish ancestry of writers there had no influence on the movie.
a) it is just a film
b) in many parts of the world it would be a good thing eg Northern Ireland
c) the way Orthodox Judaism is going, bringing in new ideas through intermarriage might not be such a bad thing
d) the general aversion to inter marriage is rabbinic rather than biblical in nature and its usefulness may have passed.
C) Don't worry, intermarriage is going strong in the US and bringing all the new ideas along.
D) It is a dispute in the Talmud if it is Rabbinic or not but I Shulchan Aruch (even ezer 16) it is final to be Biblical. Anyway, I think you have a different definition in what you consider useful.
I’d stick with the dispute in the Talmud. Codification of the law from Rambam through Shulchan Aruch is arguably responsible for a lot of our problems. We have elevated Shulchan Aruch into being the final word on so many things that in effect many are really worshipping Shulchan Aruch rather than God.
But until leading thinkers in the orthodox world can escape the trapped paradigm they are in, I’m afraid that the genuine pursuit of truth and knowledge will have to re left to those already outside the paradigm.
Ahh, I guess intermarriage will solve that problem.
It's pretty clear Deuteronomy did not look favorably on intermarriage, and nor did Ezra or Kings or pretty much the rest of the Tanach. Inasmuch as any books are pro-intermarriage, it is only if the intermarrying person completely gives up their old non-Judean identity. The Hollywood idea of people of two different backgrounds coming together and forming a family, raising the children with traditions and customs drawn from both sides of the family is very much against the Torah.
The moment there is a movie about Wade going to live among the Fire tribe, learning the Fire language, and raising little kindlings, then you can talk to me about how the prohibition on intermarriage is only Rabbinic.
From personal experience, I concur that my own "intermarriage" has brought TONS of amazing new ideas and perspectives to both ourselves and our extended families. I am not saying that is reason enough for everybody to do the same. For 1, nobody is the "other" to every1 else. There r no victims.
Could equally be about intra-marriage: Secular v. Religious, Sephardic/Mizrachi v. Ashkenazi, BaalTeshuvah v. 'organic' Jews. Black v. White Jews.
I see and hear constant excuses for such relationships not to happen in order not to 'blend' cultures 'out of existence', rather than embrace the syncretistic elements.
Anyway, narishkeit at the end of the day.
I don't think there is any particular deep value in Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Yemenite culture. There is nothing wrong with them, and if anyone wants to work to keep them alive, go ahead. But if they eventually die out through assimilation to a general Jewish culture that keeps some elements of all of them, that's a perfectly fine outcome from my perspective. Many Jewish cultures have already died out this way (how many of us speak Aramaic?), why would another few make a difference? So if an Ashkenazi and Sephardi meet and find they are good for each other, by all means go ahead and get married! Similarly for other cultural differences like black/white, BT/FFB.
I do think there is deep value in Jewish religion. If Judaism were to die out and replaced by a generic American culture that ate bagels and used the Yiddish word for "penis" but was otherwise non-Jewish, that would be a tragedy. And so in general I don't think religious Jews should marry people who are not religious Jews, because it tends strongly to the dilution of Jewish identity and commitment.
Basically it comes down to culture vs values. You compromise on culture, you don't compromise on values.
Mizrahi, Sefardi, Indian, Central Asian, Ashkenazi et al are cultural adaptations to Jews living under different circumstances. There is nothing magical or sacred about any of them. Except for the traditions of Ethiopian Jews which are almost certainly closer to those of our distant ancestors.
Ethiopian Jews have very little in common with our ancestors, especially their influence from Christians. What makes you think their traditions are better? cuz they wear turbans like in the Temple?
I don't disagree with you, but I use it to illustrate how such barriers exist even WITHIN Judaism too and that people like you or me have no issue with such differences, but others very much do. Having said that, there ARE fundamental differences of approach to Judaism from within such sectarian / ethnic streams and where minhag takes on the veil of rigidity. For example, I prefer the more flexible and open approach I would associate with North African Judaism (the food too btw) to the rigidness and IMO dourness of European Haredism. Generalization I know - but just illustrative. By the same notion, I am disinclined to identify or respect the new syncretistic Judaism manifested in messianic, 'blood and soil' national-religious streams, for example. If that is the future if Judaism (and I think it is), then I'm out.
Judaism has a nationalistic side. Look at the Mitzvot and the ultimate is to fulfill the Torah in Eretz Yisrael which is in itself a Mitzvah.
My Mother, a"h, believed, though it was not quite halakha, that Litvaks and Glitzianers should not intermarry. She lived to see a more "serious" intermarriage among her offspring.
Like Sefardim and Ashkenazim etc..
Getzel, I bet u know what a"h means. I use it as a traditional Jewish expression without the need to imply literally.
No more personal questions, please.
Sounds like this movie is great. That is, a great opportunity for a parent to discuss these questions with your children: what makes us unique as Jews, and how do we impact the world? How does our unique message become enhanced or diluted with exposure to others? What do we have to gain from the outside world, and what should we protect ourselves from? Movies can be great springboards for these important discussions
Absolutely correct. All the valid concerns raised by RNS here, he can also discuss with his children. Parents should not fear discussing important concerns and questions with their kids.
Rather it’s the not discussing things and putting blinders on and burying one’s head in the sand pretending the wider world or outside perspectives do not exist that often lead to the biggest problems.
You may be right logically, but statistically the 'blinders' method, where possible, has a much greater success rate.
Very limited in quality and limited in duration. Look what happened to religious Jews from 18 the century to the present. It's not the fault of the
"bad" Haskalah but the state of religious education which does
adequately deal with intelligent
questions.
The point is more what happened in the past 2 decades than the past 2 centuries. The challenges are different and the 'blinders' people are doing far far better currently than the 'non-blinders'. Over the past 2 centuries they've vastly improved their game. It's an 'in' community for continuity.
Orthodox retention has improved a lot over the past 100 years. There are various reasons for that, but one reason is improved education. And the communities nowadays with the highest retention also have the most insular education (though they sacrifice other things with this approach)
does not adequately deal with intelligent questions
"And if intermarriage between Earth, Air, Fire and Water becomes acceptable, how long does it take before the divisions disappear entirely? Sure, if your goal is a melting pot then it doesn’t matter so much, and it’s better to have everyone be the same. But the premise of the film was that the unique characteristics of the elements were actually valuable. How would these characteristics remain, if they are blended out of existence?" 1) I think it is fine if individuals of tribes, cultures etc: want to preserve their tribe, culture etc: However, I am against forcing individuals not to intermarry. It is unlikely every member of the tribe will intermarry, so the argument no body should intermarry b'cause then the tribe will disappear is in general very weak. Only in special circumstances can I see the validity of such an argument. Very rarely will I support the notion that two people in love should not marry just because of an alleged threat to the tribes survival. 2) Where in the Torah does it say that in general you should not intermarry ? If I recall, the prohibition was for intermarriage only with certain ancient near cultures-tribes.
There's nothing worse than a propagandistic film. Whether I agree or disagree with the philosophy being foisted it just makes for bad movies.
I also loved Goy Story! I think it's time to found a new Natoons animation company 😜
A little reminiscent of John Lennon’s “Imagine”
No Heaven or hell, no countries, no religion, no possessions, no greed…. A brotherhood of man.
You may say he was a dreamer… but were his dreams Utopian or dystopian?
Lennon was talking about communism (he said his song was "virtually The Communist Manifesto"), and we know that in practice communism didn't turn out to be a utopia.
I think my father had a similar critique about (1989's) *The Little Mermaid*. And the moral of the story there is "tick off your parents and disrespect your people, but eventually they'll come around and agree with you anyhow."
Just like 'The Jazz Singer'.
But without the blackface.
Hollywood has moved to wokeness awhile ago. My son and daughter-in-law only let their kids see a very few movies that they have vetted before. Mostly they watch old movies.
What's wrong with non-Jews adopting the message? The world would be less conflict-ridden.
Seems fairly obvious that this is the underlying message. The idea that 'everyone would be the same' is not only logically impossible, no one truly desires it, or expects such an outcome. At the risk of sounding provocative, it is race supremacists (esp. white supremacists) who use the argument that 'everyone would be the same' (read: brown) as a core thrust against inter-racial/cultural relations.
Thanks to mass communications and social media the world is turning into a global pinpoint. Given a few more decades, perhaps 50 years, differences will disappear and hatreds based on frivolous externalities will disappear. The human genome is rich enough to supply mankind's diversity without artificial divisions.
Without trying to sound flippant, I call this the 'Star Trek' philosophy. It can't come soon enough.....sadly it likely never will.
Assimilated Nemo sounds a blast! lol...Goy Story...that's brilliant. Aren't all kids animated movies about social rejection and then be accepted? The classic Hero's journey? You could read religious overtones into any of them.
And of course the whole sequence of movies about bloody conflict over leniency : Shtark Wars
Not sure why you are so convinced that it's a bad message. Isn't acceptance a good thing?
While I certainly don't condone watching "goyish" movies, I don't get what is so insidious about it?
Seems like the guttural fear that many observant Jews have that their Judaism is not strong enough to counter basic, almost docile narratives around humanity and human impulses to meet and partner with people outside their core beliefs. Most people view this as a net positive and a manner to resolve ethnic conflict. Other faiths see such things as existential threats.
Seems that people here are worried not about themselves, but about their kids. They know that while it's easy to teach kids information, it's hard to teach them values and ideals. They also know that the pull of a romantic relationship is so strong it often overwhelms all other values.
כל הכבוד! That is what the Tanach is all about. That is personal spiritual development. That if studied properly will help us and our future descendants remain faithful to the Torah.
Chaloymes!
A friend of mine became a BT (even though he was already married to a gentile and had teen children.). He gave it up, eventually. He said that “Judaism will never die,” because - like Marxism, or the Enlightenment - people will forever study it as a founding world religion. I thought as a challenge to continuity, that was an interesting counterpoint.
This makes total sense -- and Judaism is full of contradictions in this regard. When I grew up, I was educated at a Jewish secondary school, where Judaics was taught by a Lubavitcher. He said not to worry about how many Jews there are, because even if there was only 100 Jews in the world, Hashem's promises would be fulfilled and that Judaism will 'never perish'. The other extreme is the outrageous and insulting geschrei that assimilation is akin to doing the work of Hitler - esp. common in North America amongst certain types.
I have gone OTD from frum to nearly fully secular. I do not know the future, but this transition has worked for me. No matter what, I assure every1 that Hitler's plans and dreams played no part in my decision making.
But the consequences are similar.
I'm intermarried. It's nothing to be afraid of.
Please read up on the evolution of ethics, including in Nietzsche. No need for God here.