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Rational Traditionalist's avatar

Ha ha, I wonder if he knows who else was accused of being a "heresy hunter". Rav Hirsch. By Heinrich Graetz.

Guess I'm in good company, and Slifkin is in appropriate company.

(As for the actual discussion, I'm absolutely not going to spend more time explaining how badly Slifkin missed the boat on what we've been arguing about. Bottom line, his pshat in the gemara's shakla vitarya makes zero internal sense. And no, there's no Chasam Sofer or Ran who says it [Ran actually specifically says a different pshat, which - waddaya know - DOES make sense]. Readers who have more interest in understanding what's flying than Natan does can see here:

https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/halacha-science-and-birds/comment/21823987

https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-an-am-haaretz-reads-torah-sources

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Frankie's avatar

Well well, an entire post devoted to your inability to process a simple logical problem and therefore misunderstanding an entire conversation. How embarrassing.

I'll try one more time, but my hopes aren't too high:

The problem here is not hashkafa (other than the hashkafa problem of misinterpreting a gemara to be saying something nonsensical). I never said a word about the theological viability of your hanachos, and as far as I can tell neither did RT (I don't know which third guy you're referring to, so I can't speak for him). The problem is that the understanding of the achnai sugya that you blithely passed of as voss shteit durtan is internally incoherent.

Here's why: you say that the bas kol demonstrated the chachamim to be objectively wrong, and they presumably understood this to be so. Yet they did not retract their position because we need to follow the majority in order to maintain halachic stability.

The problem is that the bas kol was revealed to the actual majority while they were still in the process of hashing out the debate.

If someone is in middle of arguing something and he is proven wrong, he retracts. That's not where the issue of "follow rules of psak for halachic stability" makes any sense. You argue, you're proven wrong, you stop arguing.

The fact that the chachamim didn't retract must therefore be for a DIFFERENT reason than "damn the torpedoes, halachic stability uber altz".

QED. V'su lo midi. Your pshat in the gemara is 'unbelievably ridiculous' and all the rest.

If you want to know a pshat in the sugya that actually makes sense, well, we can look at the Ran (there are many others as well). The Ran, DESPITE assuming the hanacha that the bas kol represents shamayim's objective truth, says an actual coherent reason why they didn't retract - and it's not because of halachic stability (which is meaningless as a rationale in this context), but rather because Torah is given to the human intellect, so the chachamim's human comprehension is the objectively correct psak for practical purposes ("lo bashamayim he").

Oh. So he doesn't say your pshat. Because your pshat doesn't make sense, and the Ran doesn't usually say nonsensical pshatim. Btw - it's cute, but totally typical, that you chose to completely skip that part of the Ran when quoting his words in this post.

Again, no theological problem here. Just plain old logical problem.

(I guess we can call you a heresy hunter hunter. Take your head out of religious provocation for a moment and just try to learn a sugya in a way that makes sense. You might find it refreshing.)

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