Kobi Arieli, a charedi columnist in Yisrael HaYom, made a very good point there the other day: What defines a charedi is not mitzvah observance. What the charedi leadership is scared of them losing in the army is not observance of mitzvot (as he put it, "eating bourekas without a mehadrin hashgacha or missing a Mincha"), but of *being charedi*. What they *really* don't want to see is charedim remaining religious but not part of their camp.
No, he didn't. He said that Torah learning is protection. He later clarified (see comment below) that he meant the Torah learning of those who are incapable of serving, not those who refuse to serve.
I quote your article's representation of Rav Rimon's words: "Rav Rimon says that although everyone is obligated to serve in the army, the Torah learning of charedi students is a vital protection for the nation."
In the defense of Rav Rimon, he was asked to explain the charedi position. Right before he was asked to do that, he said that talmud Torah doesn't replace hishtadlus (the 3rd argument against him).
Regarding the second point against him, he doesn't think they should be doing this, he said it's important (he didn't use the word essential) and helpful, but he really thinks they should serve.
Regarding 1, a simple reading of the gmara in makos seems like learning Torah is helpful (I have argued that meiri has a different approach to that gmara and thought it can also be seen in the iyun Yaakov in sota on the sugya of the zechus of kriyas shma being helpful in war, but surely the words of the gmara sound like it's just the fact that they are learning Torah in the gates of Yerushalayim).
Regarding 4, and I think this is the best argument against him, I reached out to him and questioned whether learning in order to avoid fulfilling the Torah should really be a zechus at all and he agreed that really he thinks the gmara in makos is about all of the people who can't serve (elderly, too young, physically incapable for other reasons), but once people are refusing to do that, it would have value for them to at least *feel like* they are learning in the merit of soldiers (my interpretation: I guess because their empathy is the first step in their recognizing the correct path, or something to that effect).
He expressed extreme disappointment when I told him about the video of a certain Rav saying that this isn't a milchemes mitzvah, he is under the impression that charedi rabanim (Rav Elyashiv, Rav Ovadia, Tzitz Eliezer) always understood it to be a milchemes mitzvah and that no serious posek ever really thought otherwise, he thinks this is a brand new thing that they're saying now.
Additionally, I suggested that it's patently ridiculous to think that Rambam would think that people should learn as an "amulet of protection" in place of fighting in a war (he alluded to the "famous Rambam" earlier by referring to it as agada in the Rambam), (in fact Rambam would think it's disgraceful, a distortion of Torah and a chilul Hashem presumably- my addition here that I don't think I said explicitly to him), he didn't respond to that point directly, he just said that he agreed with my points, I imagine that point was included.
"He expressed extreme disappointment when I told him about the video of a certain Rav saying that this isn't a milchemes mitzvah, he is under the impression that charedi rabanim (Rav Elyashiv, Rav Ovadia, Tzitz Eliezer) always understood it to be a milchemes mitzvah and that no serious posek ever really thought otherwise, he thinks this is a brand new thing that they're saying no"
ברוך שכוונתי
Or more humbly, "It's a relief to hear that". Indeed I've been saying repeatedly that the idea that we're not fighting a מלחמת מצוה strikes me as crackpot nonsense, a loony notion not heard of until very recently.
As far as disappointment goes, I'll go further. Here you have someone who is of the very few human beings who has the opportunity and perhaps ability to learn on some level and wastes the opportunity on crackpot nonsense. It's a depressing shame.
As always someone who is involved in Torah all day is going to have a different perspective from those who aren't, and that perspective won't necessarily be the correct one. Don't argue with me, argue with the bat kol that sent R' Shimon bar Yochai and his son back to the cave to "decompress" for a year.
Kobi Arieli, a charedi columnist in Yisrael HaYom, made a very good point there the other day: What defines a charedi is not mitzvah observance. What the charedi leadership is scared of them losing in the army is not observance of mitzvot (as he put it, "eating bourekas without a mehadrin hashgacha or missing a Mincha"), but of *being charedi*. What they *really* don't want to see is charedim remaining religious but not part of their camp.
Don't argue with me, argue with him:
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/opinions/article/16936259
Clearly Rav Rimon shlit"a recognises the legitimacy of hashkofos other than his own, and good on him.
Huh? He said that it's a milchemes mitzvah and there's no excuse not to serve.
And he also said that Chareidi students learning is a vital protection for the nation.
No, he didn't. He said that Torah learning is protection. He later clarified (see comment below) that he meant the Torah learning of those who are incapable of serving, not those who refuse to serve.
I quote your article's representation of Rav Rimon's words: "Rav Rimon says that although everyone is obligated to serve in the army, the Torah learning of charedi students is a vital protection for the nation."
See the comment below from Moshe Averick, who reached out to Rav Rimon for clarification.
In the defense of Rav Rimon, he was asked to explain the charedi position. Right before he was asked to do that, he said that talmud Torah doesn't replace hishtadlus (the 3rd argument against him).
Regarding the second point against him, he doesn't think they should be doing this, he said it's important (he didn't use the word essential) and helpful, but he really thinks they should serve.
Regarding 1, a simple reading of the gmara in makos seems like learning Torah is helpful (I have argued that meiri has a different approach to that gmara and thought it can also be seen in the iyun Yaakov in sota on the sugya of the zechus of kriyas shma being helpful in war, but surely the words of the gmara sound like it's just the fact that they are learning Torah in the gates of Yerushalayim).
Regarding 4, and I think this is the best argument against him, I reached out to him and questioned whether learning in order to avoid fulfilling the Torah should really be a zechus at all and he agreed that really he thinks the gmara in makos is about all of the people who can't serve (elderly, too young, physically incapable for other reasons), but once people are refusing to do that, it would have value for them to at least *feel like* they are learning in the merit of soldiers (my interpretation: I guess because their empathy is the first step in their recognizing the correct path, or something to that effect).
He expressed extreme disappointment when I told him about the video of a certain Rav saying that this isn't a milchemes mitzvah, he is under the impression that charedi rabanim (Rav Elyashiv, Rav Ovadia, Tzitz Eliezer) always understood it to be a milchemes mitzvah and that no serious posek ever really thought otherwise, he thinks this is a brand new thing that they're saying now.
Additionally, I suggested that it's patently ridiculous to think that Rambam would think that people should learn as an "amulet of protection" in place of fighting in a war (he alluded to the "famous Rambam" earlier by referring to it as agada in the Rambam), (in fact Rambam would think it's disgraceful, a distortion of Torah and a chilul Hashem presumably- my addition here that I don't think I said explicitly to him), he didn't respond to that point directly, he just said that he agreed with my points, I imagine that point was included.
"He expressed extreme disappointment when I told him about the video of a certain Rav saying that this isn't a milchemes mitzvah, he is under the impression that charedi rabanim (Rav Elyashiv, Rav Ovadia, Tzitz Eliezer) always understood it to be a milchemes mitzvah and that no serious posek ever really thought otherwise, he thinks this is a brand new thing that they're saying no"
ברוך שכוונתי
Or more humbly, "It's a relief to hear that". Indeed I've been saying repeatedly that the idea that we're not fighting a מלחמת מצוה strikes me as crackpot nonsense, a loony notion not heard of until very recently.
As far as disappointment goes, I'll go further. Here you have someone who is of the very few human beings who has the opportunity and perhaps ability to learn on some level and wastes the opportunity on crackpot nonsense. It's a depressing shame.
I don't remember Rav Rimon saying that on the 18Forty podcast episode he was on.
Forgive a question from a naive reader:
. . . Were any of the rabbonim on this program haredi rabbonim?
If they were present, that's a good sign that some movement (by haredim) toward common sense is possible.
If they weren't present, it suggests the opposite.
. Charles
As always someone who is involved in Torah all day is going to have a different perspective from those who aren't, and that perspective won't necessarily be the correct one. Don't argue with me, argue with the bat kol that sent R' Shimon bar Yochai and his son back to the cave to "decompress" for a year.
Although I see I jumped the gun here. Kudos to R' Rimon.