Your content was never the main issue. It was your confidence and attitude. The I know better than the Rabbis and there are two camps which allows me to deny the Rabbis is a pretty big issue. Not because you're right and we're scared of exposure to you because it undermines our 'fake mesorah.' Rather because you're wrong but its so complex that those who are ignorant on these matters should best leave it to the experts as so not to lead other layman astray.
No one has a problem saying that Chazal didn't know Riemann geometry or the mathematics of the gauge quantum field theory. It isn't such a stretch that they didn't know how astronomy works scientifically. But the mesorah has taught us something along the lines that the way we perceive the world with our eyes has deep meaning which is what matters to the true reality of nature, the spiritual essence. I barely understand these things but if you don't trust that the Gr'a and Ramchal and Arizal understood these essences, why do you believe in anything our mesorah taught us?
It's so funny how people constantly insist that the Gedolim meant things other than what they explicitly said that they mean. And when they claim that rabbis who don't even read English were actually only opposed to the way that I said things.
If I'm wrong I retract and I apologize. I have no doubt that there were many annoying kanaim who should've thought twice. I hate bans, especially yours. But I know for a fact that many gedolim in America felt the way I described.
Ok, so if you think that they had no problem with the content, then clearly they have been misunderstood! So let them come out and say so. Better yet, let them write a book with the same content but in the correct "tone," and they will help so many people!
Actually let me be more clear: your content is wrong. You say that chazal were wrong. they weren't. They were only wrong scientifically. But from a Torah perspective that hardly matters. You think it matters greatly. And you are correct. IF you don't understand what the Torah is about. But how do we tell someone who doesn't know what the Torah is about to wait and ask questions later? If we say not to ask her thinks we're close minded. If we encourage the questions and he discovers some of these strong ones too early, he's likely to lose his appreciation for chazal. Which is ultimately what our beliefs are based on. Our unparalleled ethos. So what the gedolim try to do is teach that chazal were superhumanly great, which they were, and when am individual has a question, we deal with it on an individual basis in which we can still have hope that we can relay the proper ethos.
What you did is say that there needs to be answers for those struggling and you went behind their backs and in your small minded world you thought you were helping. I'm not saying some people weren't helped by your approach. But from a bigger picture perspective, is there any other way other than to deal with you?
Best mashal is a classroom with a usher with a certain goal one kid thinks he knows better. What do you do with that kid? What is he's a very persuasive writer with thousands of followers?
I'm not saying what happened was okay on a personal level. Maybe they should have left it to a different folks for different strokes and if some want to get it wind so be it. But I'd your were in their shoes, can you blame them?
" They were only wrong scientifically. But from a Torah perspective that hardly matters."
That's not what the banners claimed. Not only did they assert that Chazal weren't "wrong scientifically, they also stated that the denial of Chazal's expertise in science was heresy. Thus it did matter from a Torah perspective.
It appears that your conflating your agenda with the banners'.
I keep seeing commenters in this forum talking for the Gedolim and offering reasons for them. What they are doing is attributing their own personal views to the Gedolim. So much for Daas Torah.
Well, you guys have different missions. I can't talk for anyone but I'd say these topics aren't necessarily meant for public consumption because while chazal may have erred, what they said is still true 100% as they were describing a spiritual essence. To teach that they were infallible is a much more important message which stays true even after understanding the later nuance that they erred in scientific matters. For most people the things you wrote are way further from the truth than the flipside.
The rishonim who didn't have a mesorah, correct. but they were wrong too, not chazal. And you can cry and make up two camps when in reality they were a step removed from our camp and in the step they didn't take, they were wrong we don't make wrong mainstream and we teach those kinds of things to people who are ready. From my understanding, you still don't know what spiritual essence are. You still call them esoteric manipulations or something like that when in reality they are really about getting close to God...
Doesn’t every religious tradition (really any tradition of values / customs / commitments) make a claim to deep meaning? Isn’t that the whole reason adherents are commanded to discuss and learn them and pass them on? The question is whether it originates from human desire and need, or from something “higher.”
Every religion seems to privilege its own way of seeing, it’s own “deep” lessons, as the truth that is preferred. Can we appreciate that sociological reality, as students of religion.?
Hey! Don't give away Lakewood's secret! We don't need another book banned!
Honestly, whether the author believes what he quoted from Rabbi Meiselman or not, makes no difference. He did a great political move by doing so, making his un-apologetic sefer look mainstream.
I flipped through this book, and it is clear that there is essentially there is no basis for waiting 72 minutes after Shabbos (in the US). The book also quotes - I believe Rav Shlomo Fisher - in a response to someone shocked that the Rabbeinu Tam could be wrong: "It's simple - he was shlugged up!"
(Maybe it's ok if you say they were wrong in a yeshivish way 😉)
Rabbeinu Tam never said '72 minutes' for the US. Not sure if he said 72 minutes at all. By the way, until recently there was no way of measuring 72 minutes accurately. Especially after sunset.
And he said 4 mil when and where exactly? Another good question. Are you aware that in many parts of the world in the Summer it is bright daylight well before 72 minutes before haneitz?
Lfi Ho'ofek is your eyes, man. Nobody uses 72 minutes fixed l'kulah, by the way. I can assure in Radin in the peak of the Summer the sky was very bright 72 minutes after sunset. You think all the Rabneinu Tam followers made havdoloh?
And they used a Casio to calibrate the sand timers? Yep, every Jewish home had a 72 minute sand timer. And a luach telling them when sunset was to start turning the sand timer. 😀
I haven't moved on. They had no way of calculating 72 minutes from sunset. I stand by that, and you have not rebutted it. It didn't matter. They didn't use minutes, they didn't use degrees, they used their eyes. But nitpick all you like on the use of the term 'Jewish home', as if that is the main point.
And by the way, real evidence for sand timers only dates them reliably to 1300s to 1400s and later. If they were in widespread use before then, historians would bring that date earlier.
Yes. See above. 72 minutes fixed in all places for every day of the year is wrong. You can verify this with your own eyes. No seforim, da'as torah, rabbis or spherical geometry needed. You just need to know what a star is. And remember, don't put the cart before the horse. These zemanim are supposed to be emperical. All this minute stuff came later. (A bit like kezayis is supposed to be a minimum shiur achilah and cannot possibly be a shiur which means you have to stuff yourself to the maximum)
That's correct. Everything is in the way it is said, not necessarily what is said.
It remains one of the funniest things on the Jewish internet that our host, the one and only NS, is STILL stuck in this rut, twenty years later, and STILL keeps trying to turn his personal bugaboo into some kind of burning issue of controversy.
Even if that were true about “NS”’s motivation to continue his work - your rhetorical “bugaboo” turn of phrase exposes your own bias. Public character assassination, attempted sabotage of someone else’s parnassa ... the amount of time that has passed since then is irrelevant and “the way it was said” is not justification for anything. I am not holding my breath but 20 years later I am “still” waiting for the public apology along with “NS”.
You have to be realistic. Nobody ever apologizes in these types of things, because nobody ever thinks they were wrong in the first place. If they cared to, any disputant of NS could point to his own admitted evolution, or to any of countless blog posts, as evidence of the correctness of their position. YOU (or me, but we're not talking about me) might not see it that way, but they don't see things the way you do, either.
Even if I became a Christian missionary, how on earth would that be evidence that the Rishonim and Acharonim who said that Chazal were mistaken in science were espousing kefirah?
"The latest fad is that a person gets Cheremed for tone, so he gets rid of his name and socks (which thanks to our advanced technology and our being in the Pollak 'back to the future' generation, get erased retroactively, or more likely only m'kan ul'haba l'mafreia) and tone, and repeats his good old ideas in gentler terms.
RDS is an example of this who, having gotten Cheremed for tone, took on the new identity RAN and repeated very gently his ideas in the new 'The Great Z’manim Debate' book. Then he wrote an elaborate denial that it isn't he. Now, in the wake of the Cherem from ~19 years ago, the hoi polloi Cheremed those Machrimim for THEIR tone, (mysteriously but conspicuously absent in some of the English translations). This time that will be corrected. They will reissue their Cherem on the TGZD book, but only in gentler terms.
For a scientific explanation of ovi harakia and the gemara in Pesachim about it see the sefer Kanfei Yona on Yore Deah (written by the mchaber of shu"t meil tzedaka and mote, a great gaon who was niftear in the year 1712) siman 69 saif 6.
There u go again, responding to your critics in precisely the wrong way, by screaming at the top of your lungs "YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE!" If they cared about evidence, they'd already be "Jewish rationalists" (and if they REALLY cared about evidence, they'd be just rationalists).
Yes, updating your beliefs in light of new evidence is a good and praiseworthy thing!!! Refusing to ever change your mind no matter what doesn't make it more likely that ur correct!
But if they were wrong about such a basic thing as where the sun goes at night - and they even thought that they had Torah basis for their position - why on earth would they necessarily be correct about more obscure things?
What is the canon of ethics underlying religious teaching? It seems quite weak. It’s as though religious instruction is a master class in the manipulation of trusting people.
What is the canon of ethics underlying religious teaching? It seems quite weak. It’s as though religious instruction is a master class in the manipulation of trusting people.
At what point does any teaching tell us we are on earth to be manipulated? I'd feel better if someone just said it out loud..! A moment of truth, I think.!
No we are not. We now know that 3 stars emerge well before that time in EY/bavel every time of the year. Being that 3 stars is night according to the Gemara we have no other option than to accept the gras shita.
That’s ridiculous. Being that it’s the same amount of time as from alos to neitz it is clearly referring to a sky full of stars, as the gra points out.
"If RT ignored those calculations, and the difference between various points on the globe, when those differences are obvious, he clearly held that those differences are irrelevant."
We don't know that. Maybe RT would accept lfi ha'ofek. And his 72 minutes was referring to a specific place and time of the year.
Well, it's not just me being the arrogant fool. It's millions, if not billions, of eyes in the world since RT.
Unfortunately, unless you really are into granting RT supernational papal infallibility, yes, the metzius can prove him wrong. Even Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes, you know.
"we use the words 72 minutes to denote that". What does that mean?
But there is no way that the walking method can give 72 minutes fixed, every time, for everybody. What age? What altitude increase/decrease? What stamina? What speed?
That is exactly my point. Thank you very much.
And it wouldn't have helped for alos, either. Can't walk backwards in time. So if there is a '72 minute fixed' halochoh, you need to explain how Hashem could give a halochoh that is not calculable for most of brias ha'olem'.
PS An 18 minute mil is also subject to machlokas, by the way.
You can't say that when they couldn't measure the 72 minutes, as I have mentioned before (and you keep avoiding). In fact you are now becoming somewhat circular (not the first time). You say the 72 minutes can be measured in walking, and that is what they did, but the source of the 72 minutes is the walking!
It's not so simple. There is ONE Rishon who learns differently. That is Rabbeinu Tam quoted in shitta mekubetzes (Ketubot 11b?) -Check the Gilyon haShas in Pesachim.
"You can literally walk into their batei midrash and open up to the 'folio' where it says chazal admitted to being wrong. Isn't that shocking???"
My response In other words:
Wrong.
It's not a mefurash Gemara. I cannot understand why you did not understand. Rabbeinu Tam says that the chachamim did not concede, but were just admitting that at first glance the other opinion appeared more correct.
It's what you will hear if walk into BMG and pull a Gemara off the shelf...
For goodness' sakes. Do you really not know what the yeshiva world is like? R. Meiselman only admits it after spending endless pages trying to avoid and obfuscate it. The standard line in yeshivos is "but Rabbeinu Tam... but Maharal..." The 36 Gedolim who signed against my book all declared that it's heretical.
I'm sure it's not picking when that was and still is the most common way to learn in the Yeshivos!
The reason for this: if Chazal indeed had a mesorah, they could not possibly be wrong.
If they admit they were mistaken, it tells us they did not have a mesora. Rather, they were using their G-d given intellect just like we do. And there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.
Why does every מאמר חז"ל need to be a mesora from Sinai or divinely transmitted? Who is really pushing this agenda? Chazal themselves clearly state it is a mesora when it is. Enough for now. I don't advise you to go into it if you already agree; just be aware that there are people who cannot accept this Gemara k'pshuto.
Your content was never the main issue. It was your confidence and attitude. The I know better than the Rabbis and there are two camps which allows me to deny the Rabbis is a pretty big issue. Not because you're right and we're scared of exposure to you because it undermines our 'fake mesorah.' Rather because you're wrong but its so complex that those who are ignorant on these matters should best leave it to the experts as so not to lead other layman astray.
No one has a problem saying that Chazal didn't know Riemann geometry or the mathematics of the gauge quantum field theory. It isn't such a stretch that they didn't know how astronomy works scientifically. But the mesorah has taught us something along the lines that the way we perceive the world with our eyes has deep meaning which is what matters to the true reality of nature, the spiritual essence. I barely understand these things but if you don't trust that the Gr'a and Ramchal and Arizal understood these essences, why do you believe in anything our mesorah taught us?
It's so funny how people constantly insist that the Gedolim meant things other than what they explicitly said that they mean. And when they claim that rabbis who don't even read English were actually only opposed to the way that I said things.
If I'm wrong I retract and I apologize. I have no doubt that there were many annoying kanaim who should've thought twice. I hate bans, especially yours. But I know for a fact that many gedolim in America felt the way I described.
Ok, so if you think that they had no problem with the content, then clearly they have been misunderstood! So let them come out and say so. Better yet, let them write a book with the same content but in the correct "tone," and they will help so many people!
Actually let me be more clear: your content is wrong. You say that chazal were wrong. they weren't. They were only wrong scientifically. But from a Torah perspective that hardly matters. You think it matters greatly. And you are correct. IF you don't understand what the Torah is about. But how do we tell someone who doesn't know what the Torah is about to wait and ask questions later? If we say not to ask her thinks we're close minded. If we encourage the questions and he discovers some of these strong ones too early, he's likely to lose his appreciation for chazal. Which is ultimately what our beliefs are based on. Our unparalleled ethos. So what the gedolim try to do is teach that chazal were superhumanly great, which they were, and when am individual has a question, we deal with it on an individual basis in which we can still have hope that we can relay the proper ethos.
What you did is say that there needs to be answers for those struggling and you went behind their backs and in your small minded world you thought you were helping. I'm not saying some people weren't helped by your approach. But from a bigger picture perspective, is there any other way other than to deal with you?
Best mashal is a classroom with a usher with a certain goal one kid thinks he knows better. What do you do with that kid? What is he's a very persuasive writer with thousands of followers?
I'm not saying what happened was okay on a personal level. Maybe they should have left it to a different folks for different strokes and if some want to get it wind so be it. But I'd your were in their shoes, can you blame them?
" They were only wrong scientifically. But from a Torah perspective that hardly matters."
That's not what the banners claimed. Not only did they assert that Chazal weren't "wrong scientifically, they also stated that the denial of Chazal's expertise in science was heresy. Thus it did matter from a Torah perspective.
It appears that your conflating your agenda with the banners'.
I keep seeing commenters in this forum talking for the Gedolim and offering reasons for them. What they are doing is attributing their own personal views to the Gedolim. So much for Daas Torah.
Well, you guys have different missions. I can't talk for anyone but I'd say these topics aren't necessarily meant for public consumption because while chazal may have erred, what they said is still true 100% as they were describing a spiritual essence. To teach that they were infallible is a much more important message which stays true even after understanding the later nuance that they erred in scientific matters. For most people the things you wrote are way further from the truth than the flipside.
Put yourself in their shoes, what would you do?
What makes you so sure that they were describing a "spiritual essence"? The Rishonim didn't think so.
The rishonim who didn't have a mesorah, correct. but they were wrong too, not chazal. And you can cry and make up two camps when in reality they were a step removed from our camp and in the step they didn't take, they were wrong we don't make wrong mainstream and we teach those kinds of things to people who are ready. From my understanding, you still don't know what spiritual essence are. You still call them esoteric manipulations or something like that when in reality they are really about getting close to God...
Doesn’t every religious tradition (really any tradition of values / customs / commitments) make a claim to deep meaning? Isn’t that the whole reason adherents are commanded to discuss and learn them and pass them on? The question is whether it originates from human desire and need, or from something “higher.”
Every religion seems to privilege its own way of seeing, it’s own “deep” lessons, as the truth that is preferred. Can we appreciate that sociological reality, as students of religion.?
Yasher Koach!
Hey! Don't give away Lakewood's secret! We don't need another book banned!
Honestly, whether the author believes what he quoted from Rabbi Meiselman or not, makes no difference. He did a great political move by doing so, making his un-apologetic sefer look mainstream.
You are so on the ball over here.
If love to hear your thoughts thought on this whole thing...
Which? There are a number of discussions floating around.
Shitas Rabeinu Tam? Shitas 72 Shavos? Shitas Rabbi Meiselman? Shitas NS? Shitas The Great Zemanim debate?
If you have any specific questions on any of these I can try to answer.
My personal opinion is somewhere between Rabbi Meiselman and The Great Zemanim Debate.
This comment expresses it best.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/mission-impossible/comment/39849703.
The sugya is obviously much much bigger than that but that should always be the starting point.
I flipped through this book, and it is clear that there is essentially there is no basis for waiting 72 minutes after Shabbos (in the US). The book also quotes - I believe Rav Shlomo Fisher - in a response to someone shocked that the Rabbeinu Tam could be wrong: "It's simple - he was shlugged up!"
(Maybe it's ok if you say they were wrong in a yeshivish way 😉)
Rav Yisrael Yaakov Fisher. He was much more Yeshivish than his brother.
Rabbeinu Tam never said '72 minutes' for the US. Not sure if he said 72 minutes at all. By the way, until recently there was no way of measuring 72 minutes accurately. Especially after sunset.
I don't believe that story.
He said 4 mil, so what’s that in minutes?
Good question. Machlokas.
And he said 4 mil when and where exactly? Another good question. Are you aware that in many parts of the world in the Summer it is bright daylight well before 72 minutes before haneitz?
Ever heard of the phrase 'l'fi ho'ofek'?
So where did he say 4 mil?
Lfi ho’ofek is the gras taana on RT.
Lfi Ho'ofek is your eyes, man. Nobody uses 72 minutes fixed l'kulah, by the way. I can assure in Radin in the peak of the Summer the sky was very bright 72 minutes after sunset. You think all the Rabneinu Tam followers made havdoloh?
Why is that?
Plenty of people calculate 72 fix lkula in regards to alos.
It is ludicrous, of course.
You need to read Rabbi Notice’s book.
Good question. Much ink has been spilt on that. Also when in the year. Maybe Bovel at the equinox.
That’s the gra. RT doesn’t seem to have been aware that it fluctuates.
And they used a Casio to calibrate the sand timers? Yep, every Jewish home had a 72 minute sand timer. And a luach telling them when sunset was to start turning the sand timer. 😀
I haven't moved on. They had no way of calculating 72 minutes from sunset. I stand by that, and you have not rebutted it. It didn't matter. They didn't use minutes, they didn't use degrees, they used their eyes. But nitpick all you like on the use of the term 'Jewish home', as if that is the main point.
And by the way, real evidence for sand timers only dates them reliably to 1300s to 1400s and later. If they were in widespread use before then, historians would bring that date earlier.
There is no basis for waiting 72 minutes in Tzefas where the mechaber lived either. It's pitch black long before that time.
According to RT there is no basis?
Yes. See above. 72 minutes fixed in all places for every day of the year is wrong. You can verify this with your own eyes. No seforim, da'as torah, rabbis or spherical geometry needed. You just need to know what a star is. And remember, don't put the cart before the horse. These zemanim are supposed to be emperical. All this minute stuff came later. (A bit like kezayis is supposed to be a minimum shiur achilah and cannot possibly be a shiur which means you have to stuff yourself to the maximum)
That's correct. Everything is in the way it is said, not necessarily what is said.
It remains one of the funniest things on the Jewish internet that our host, the one and only NS, is STILL stuck in this rut, twenty years later, and STILL keeps trying to turn his personal bugaboo into some kind of burning issue of controversy.
Even if that were true about “NS”’s motivation to continue his work - your rhetorical “bugaboo” turn of phrase exposes your own bias. Public character assassination, attempted sabotage of someone else’s parnassa ... the amount of time that has passed since then is irrelevant and “the way it was said” is not justification for anything. I am not holding my breath but 20 years later I am “still” waiting for the public apology along with “NS”.
You have to be realistic. Nobody ever apologizes in these types of things, because nobody ever thinks they were wrong in the first place. If they cared to, any disputant of NS could point to his own admitted evolution, or to any of countless blog posts, as evidence of the correctness of their position. YOU (or me, but we're not talking about me) might not see it that way, but they don't see things the way you do, either.
Even if I became a Christian missionary, how on earth would that be evidence that the Rishonim and Acharonim who said that Chazal were mistaken in science were espousing kefirah?
It would be evidence that you were not someone who could be trusted to articulate Jewish beliefs.
What difference whether I am trustworthy? Either the statements in my books are true or they are false.
"So you’d think that a new book ...would be something that I detest."
No one would think this. You're a contrarian, it's who you are.
"neverthless every single Rishon and numerous Acharonim"
-- Nevertheless
Another excellent post!
As I wrote here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-ultimate-mishnah/comment/39785045,
"The latest fad is that a person gets Cheremed for tone, so he gets rid of his name and socks (which thanks to our advanced technology and our being in the Pollak 'back to the future' generation, get erased retroactively, or more likely only m'kan ul'haba l'mafreia) and tone, and repeats his good old ideas in gentler terms.
RDS is an example of this who, having gotten Cheremed for tone, took on the new identity RAN and repeated very gently his ideas in the new 'The Great Z’manim Debate' book. Then he wrote an elaborate denial that it isn't he. Now, in the wake of the Cherem from ~19 years ago, the hoi polloi Cheremed those Machrimim for THEIR tone, (mysteriously but conspicuously absent in some of the English translations). This time that will be corrected. They will reissue their Cherem on the TGZD book, but only in gentler terms.
For a scientific explanation of ovi harakia and the gemara in Pesachim about it see the sefer Kanfei Yona on Yore Deah (written by the mchaber of shu"t meil tzedaka and mote, a great gaon who was niftear in the year 1712) siman 69 saif 6.
There u go again, responding to your critics in precisely the wrong way, by screaming at the top of your lungs "YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE!" If they cared about evidence, they'd already be "Jewish rationalists" (and if they REALLY cared about evidence, they'd be just rationalists).
Or, and this may shock you, they may consider the same evidence you do, and come to different conclusions, fully rationally.
no they don't lol. if they really do look at the evidence, then they are forced to either
1) just-not-think-about-it or fall back on emuna
2) make absolute clowns of themselves (e.g. atalef = platypus) as OP has extensively documented
neither of which is rational
Meanwhile, you believe all of the "evidence", even as it constantly changes.
Yes, updating your beliefs in light of new evidence is a good and praiseworthy thing!!! Refusing to ever change your mind no matter what doesn't make it more likely that ur correct!
If the Gemara says clearly that the חכמי אומות העולם are correct then essentially Chazal were right, as science has proven.
Someone is obfuscating here and it isn’t Rabbi Meiselman.
But if they were wrong about such a basic thing as where the sun goes at night - and they even thought that they had Torah basis for their position - why on earth would they necessarily be correct about more obscure things?
There's an excellent three volume set on Zmanim as well.
I have found that Zmanim are an excellent "red-pill" for chareidi people who think chazal and rishonim are always correct scientifically.
What set are you referring to?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1946351989/ref=cm_sw_r_as_gl_apa_gl_i_7ZRNKG1FBE02C1EG7F7X?linkCode=ml2&tag=thatsfrumthea-20
What is the canon of ethics underlying religious teaching? It seems quite weak. It’s as though religious instruction is a master class in the manipulation of trusting people.
What is the canon of ethics underlying religious teaching? It seems quite weak. It’s as though religious instruction is a master class in the manipulation of trusting people.
Try Ethics of the Fathers
At what point does any teaching tell us we are on earth to be manipulated? I'd feel better if someone just said it out loud..! A moment of truth, I think.!
From an apologetics perspective, I don't see why nishtanu hateva (nature has changed) can't be applied to this.
Everyone agrees that roasted hens and old wine no longer cure pneumonia.
The sun used to go behind the sky at night, but then it changed?
The sky is the thingy above us. The definition has not changed. (And that's not what nishtane hateva means.)
Deleted the comment, sorry
Nishtanu hateva (hishtanut haTeva'im) is a sevara, not an accepted fact.
It is used when other explanations fail.
But it's not dogma, nor is it a principle.
Well said, and a nice complement (not "compliment") to Marty Bluke's also accurate comment below.
Nishtane hateva makes no sense when you really think about it. See https://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2005/07/is-viable-answer-for-conflicts-between.html
Isn't the RT a daas yachid among the Rishonim anyway?
No we are not. We now know that 3 stars emerge well before that time in EY/bavel every time of the year. Being that 3 stars is night according to the Gemara we have no other option than to accept the gras shita.
That’s ridiculous. Being that it’s the same amount of time as from alos to neitz it is clearly referring to a sky full of stars, as the gra points out.
The Minchos Cohen could not figure out when stars in EY emerge. Why do you think RT was different?
He speculates that it may be longer if I recall correctly.
"If RT ignored those calculations, and the difference between various points on the globe, when those differences are obvious, he clearly held that those differences are irrelevant."
We don't know that. Maybe RT would accept lfi ha'ofek. And his 72 minutes was referring to a specific place and time of the year.
Why do you insist on ignoring what he clearly writes, that his position is based on his understanding that the sun travels through the עובי הרקיע.
It won’t make it go away.
Why do you insist on obfuscating the fact that it was not “obvious” to RT when 3 stars in EY was visible?
He did not live there.
That doesn’t mean he knew when 3 stars in EY emerged.
Your obfuscation knows no bounds.
So the Minchas Cohen was a complete fool, eh?
Considering him in that category removed you from the discussion.
Well, it's not just me being the arrogant fool. It's millions, if not billions, of eyes in the world since RT.
Unfortunately, unless you really are into granting RT supernational papal infallibility, yes, the metzius can prove him wrong. Even Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes, you know.
So, I will go with RT agreeing with lfi ha'ofek.
Why would the Gemara be referring to an ofek other than bavel/EY?
RT could just about work in Bovel/EY referring to the smallest stars when they appear in the west. That is where 16.1 degrees come from.
“Smallest stars in the west” isn’t the shuir. It’s middle size stars anywhere.
Good question.
So 4 fixed mil anywhere in the world at all times. Yet the Gemara gives simanim based on stars and stuff. How perfectly idiotic.
RT could just about work in Bovel/EY referring to the smallest stars when they appear in the west. That is where 16.1 degrees come from.
"we use the words 72 minutes to denote that". What does that mean?
But there is no way that the walking method can give 72 minutes fixed, every time, for everybody. What age? What altitude increase/decrease? What stamina? What speed?
That is exactly my point. Thank you very much.
And it wouldn't have helped for alos, either. Can't walk backwards in time. So if there is a '72 minute fixed' halochoh, you need to explain how Hashem could give a halochoh that is not calculable for most of brias ha'olem'.
PS An 18 minute mil is also subject to machlokas, by the way.
Agree, that's my point. Part of the fundemental problem with '72 minutes fixed'.
You haven't addressed my other points by the way.
You can't say that when they couldn't measure the 72 minutes, as I have mentioned before (and you keep avoiding). In fact you are now becoming somewhat circular (not the first time). You say the 72 minutes can be measured in walking, and that is what they did, but the source of the 72 minutes is the walking!
It's not so simple. There is ONE Rishon who learns differently. That is Rabbeinu Tam quoted in shitta mekubetzes (Ketubot 11b?) -Check the Gilyon haShas in Pesachim.
But everyone else seem to differ.
A great source is
שו"ת מהר"ם אלאשקר
Excerpt from your comment:
"You can literally walk into their batei midrash and open up to the 'folio' where it says chazal admitted to being wrong. Isn't that shocking???"
My response In other words:
Wrong.
It's not a mefurash Gemara. I cannot understand why you did not understand. Rabbeinu Tam says that the chachamim did not concede, but were just admitting that at first glance the other opinion appeared more correct.
It's what you will hear if walk into BMG and pull a Gemara off the shelf...
So this is not clickable after all.
For goodness' sakes. Do you really not know what the yeshiva world is like? R. Meiselman only admits it after spending endless pages trying to avoid and obfuscate it. The standard line in yeshivos is "but Rabbeinu Tam... but Maharal..." The 36 Gedolim who signed against my book all declared that it's heretical.
Shaul,
I'm sure it's not picking when that was and still is the most common way to learn in the Yeshivos!
The reason for this: if Chazal indeed had a mesorah, they could not possibly be wrong.
If they admit they were mistaken, it tells us they did not have a mesora. Rather, they were using their G-d given intellect just like we do. And there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.
Why does every מאמר חז"ל need to be a mesora from Sinai or divinely transmitted? Who is really pushing this agenda? Chazal themselves clearly state it is a mesora when it is. Enough for now. I don't advise you to go into it if you already agree; just be aware that there are people who cannot accept this Gemara k'pshuto.