Rabbi Hauer should not be referring to the haredi rabbis as Gedolei Yisrael. That's already buying into their political propaganda. They are haredi rabbis and nothing more, no better than anyone else, and certainly not the greatest among Yisrael.
Slifkin also shouldn't be using the title "Rabbi" for Hauer. "Rabbi" means "master" or "great" and Hauer is nobody's master and is no greater than anybody else.
I think even conceding the name "Agudah" is too much. Why should we call it the "Agudah" which means to tie together, when as Rabbi Slifkin astutely points out, the only separate? We should call it "Halaka", which contains the word "helek", meaning separate part, and is additionally a pun to make fun of hareidi haircuts in Meron which are also called "Halaka".
Even calling them Charedim is inappropriate. Charedim refers to חרדים לדבר השם. We should refer to them as Reguim, which means relaxers, since they don't work. /s
If we all are on a ship, and someone wants to play around in his room by carving out a hole in the floor. It is NOT Shinas Chinum to raise voices and scream at him.
I don't think Rabbi Hauer would disagree with you. It's not automatically sinas chinam to raise voices and scream, but it's a slippery slope towards sinas chinam, and that's exactly what RH is pleading with everyone to avoid
Calling the soldiers that protect you Nazi's. The thousands of Charedim that call them that, is not Sinas Chinum?? Imagine in America if you went over to a veteran who risked his life for the country and called him a Nazi - Just one guy, just one time - the outcry would be terrible. The veteran would be justified to knock out his 2 front teeth.
Go to any video of these demonstrations against the army , or just recently a bus of soldiers accidently went into the Charedi neighborhood.
What you have to do is, turn on, or turn up, the volume and listen for a bit. If you cant hear it - you are a huge tzaddik that his ears do not hear anything bad. OR I can recommend you an excellent hearing doctor.
P.S. Oh, I just realized your name is "Fluffy cloud of Goodness". - You might be living up to your name. Stop the kidding and take your head out of the sand!
That's very different. They're not calling all soldiers Nazis, they're calling the people trying to force them to draft nazis. It's a slur, but not worse than the slurs used by the anti-chareidim against the chareidim, like "parasite". They're not "demonstrating against the army", they're demonstrating against the chareidi draft.
.The word "PARISITE" means someone or some living thing - that lives off another living thing called the host.. Example I go to work everyday and I work hard, and another person who does not want to work then sucks out money from me - that is a Parisite. Maybe a harsh word that should not be used, however it fits into reality
On the other hand "NAZI" - was someone who killed Jews by putting a bullet in their head or like what they did to my grandmother and her 4 kids. They choked them to death in a chamber of gas.
Fluffy cloud OF goodness. Without going further I hope understand.
I don't think you read my comment correctly. Of course calling them nazi's is sinas chinam.
The slippery slope I am talking about is referring to the secular/DL yelling towards chareidim (which I assumed is what you were talking about with your ship mashal - is that not the case?)
I just love it when chareidim scream 'achdus!' yet don't have to compromise on one single thing and the rest of the country has to literally give up their lives to protect them. [[Eyeroll]]
This is not an example of chareidim screaming achdus, and as you can see, remarkably few chareidim are asking for achdus, but instead are talking about the war against Torah. Rabbi Hauer is not chareidi, and represents the OU, and is calling for achdus.
I think it is an error to view the draft debate in Israel as emanating from “sinas chinam, hatred between Jews.” It would be absurd to characterize the U.S. civil rights movement challenging Jim Crow laws as hatred directed toward the white population. Rather, that movement challenged an unjust legal regime and sought to assure that all citizens were treated equally under the law.
The circumstances in Israel are similar. This is a public policy issue attempting to address a policy regime whereby certain citizens have historically been treated preferentially regarding military service. In truth, this debate should not be referred to as a “Chareidi draft” issue at all. The discussion should be characterized as one of Israeli public policy and law, applicable to all citizens equally, for military service, and the consequences for any citizen who fails to observe the law.
It isn't well said at all. It misses the whole point. The hate is more systemic than actual. No one thinks any of you actually espouses hatred "for no reason". Rather, you feel injustice, which comes from your very different value system. That's a lack of understanding and one sidedness, and following through with that miopia, more than anything else.
As it turns out new public information reveals that at least k1/3 work full-time and at least 1/3 part time.New investigation seems to indicate perhaps even more.R. HAuer your living in fantasy.
"The discussion should be characterized as one of Israeli public policy and law, applicable to all citizens equally, for military service, and the consequences for any citizen who fails to observe the law."
When they start drafting the Arabs, you might have a point. Minister Amsalem actually petitioned the court to stop being hypocrites and do exactly that. Of course, he got nowhere. https://www.timesofisrael.com/high-court-rejects-likud-ministers-petition-seeking-to-draft-arab-israelis-into-idf/ Because some equalities are more equal than others. Just like the court can magically strike down laws as constitutional without a constitution, and even invalidate a constitutional amendment as unconstitutional. It's called safeguarding democracy, and if you disagree, you're a fascist who doesn't respect minorities' rights.
I do not think the issue of an Arab draft negates my point. Drafting Arabs could present difficult security issues for the military that are not present for the draft of Jewish citizens. Assuming hypothetically, however, that no such issues existed regarding an Arab draft, I see no reason why a military draft law should not apply equally to them as well.
You can't present analogies to ending discrimination in Jim Crow south while at the same time carving out a giant exception. It isn't coherent. It would be like exempting part of the KKK from having to comply with desegregation.
You're incoherent. You're presenting a stupid idea with the pretense of conviction. You know it's nonsense. Everyone knows it's nonsense. The only question (and an irrelevant one) is whether everyone knows you know it's nonsense.
So I'll ask you directly: Do you believe that Arabs should have an equal share in the burden of defending Jews?
If you do, you are a very sick individual held captive by secularist ideology- and it means that you are infected by a rotting secularism that average Israeli is immune from.
"I'm not pushing for unwilling populations to be coerced into serving."
You don't actually believe there's an equivalence between coercing Jews to defend other Jews in a מלחמת מצוה and coercing Arabs. It's a stupid comparison.
It's an even stupider idea to try to force chareidim to serve.
You really want thousands of forced conscripts who see themselves as prisoners, the victims of religious repression? You think that will improve the army? It's just the most idiotic idea ever. You know it's nonsense. Everyone knows it's nonsense. The only question (and an irrelevant one) is whether everyone knows you know it's nonsense.
I am not sure I understand your point. I stated that, if feasible, conscription should apply to Israeli Arabs. But plainly, if there were a reasonable basis to conclude that their involuntary enlistment would degrade the military — and I am not claiming to make that assessment — such conscription would make little sense. Similarly, it would not be expected that the military conscript others who might degrade its capabilities, such as young children, the aged, incompetents, etc.
My point was in response to your analogy. You analogized the situation to ending discrimination. I'm arguing that your analogy is fundamentally flawed since it entails exempting the worst offenders. What you're effectively arguing is that charedim aren't treasonous enough. If only a few avreichim from Bnei Brak started committing terror attacks, they'd be excused from the draft too.
"What you're effectively arguing is that charedim aren't treasonous enough."
Quite a bit of nonsense speculation there. Charedim are not treasonous. Charedim are sufficiently patriotic, and benefit from Israeli Jewish society as Jews, and therefore should serve in the army. This can't be said for other groups of people who don't serve.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding. The point of my analogy was to address the suggestion of sinas chinam mentioned in the OU article, not to draw a parallel between U.S. Jim Crow laws and Israeli draft law.
To restate, just as the civil rights protests in the U.S. were not expressions of hatred towards individuals (i.e., white people) but, rather, against a perceived unjust legal regime (i.e., Jim Crow laws), the focus in Israel is upon perceived problematic draft policies, and not an expression of hatred toward particular individuals or groups. In sum, I disagree that a movement to revise the draft laws to fix perceived iniquities should be equated with sinas chinam amongst Jews.
On the contrary, if I wanted to really respond I wouldn't write "stupidity". But because it was stupid, I didn't offer a substantial response. But more to point, is that I don't think you're stupid, you just make stupid arguments which you don't believe in. You're not that stupid. If you were, then a proper response may educate you. But since your stupid arguments come from intelligence, you don't deserve a normal response.
"If one group within the nation is harming everyone else, such as by weakening the IDF, and thus making our enemies' mission easier, then that group should certainly be opposed.
I do not think that there are grounds to equate the charedi dismissal of non-charedi concerns with the non-charedi dismissal of charedi concerns."
גיוס חרדים: "זה סדר אלוקי עמוק מאוד שלא תאבד תורה מישראל"
אחד הנושאים הנפיצים ביותר שעלו בעקבות המלחמה הוא אי-גיוס חרדים. לרב לוינשטיין יש תפיסה מקורית בנוגע לסוגיה ולדעתו מדובר בסדר אלוקי מדויק שגורם לכך שלא תאבד תורה מישראל. "העולם החרדי לא מתגייס משתי סיבות: אידיאולוגיה שלא רואה ערך בציונות וקושי לשמור על הזהות החרדית בצבא".
ויש לרב ביקורת על העמדה החרדית הזו?
"ממש לא. אני חושב שזה סדר אלוקי עמוק מאוד שלא תאבד תורה מישראל, כדי לשמור על ישראל סבא, על רצף התורה לדורות מסיני עד היום. בגלל זה חלקים בתוך העם היהודי מוצאים בקרבם יעוד ואחריות לשמירת המסורת של תורת ישראל על קוצו של יו"ד, לכן יש ציבור מאוד גדול שמוצא בקרבו דחף פנימי עמוק למסור את הנפש שלא תאבד תורה מישראל".
........but, hey, what does *he* know about any of the terrible sacrifices of the dati-leumi world?
למרות התפיסה שלו הבוחרת שלא לבקר את העולם החרדי, אחד ממפעלי חייו המרכזיים של הרב לוינשטיין היא המכינה בעלי. במלחמה האחרונה באה לידי ביטוי, באופן כואב מאוד, רוחה של המכינה כאשר 19 מתלמידיה ובוגריה נפלו בקרבות. הרב מרצין כשהוא מדבר על הנופלים. "עקידת יצחק היא ניסיון העשירי, ורק אחריו הקדוש ברוך הוא נתן תואר לאברהם אבינו, 'עתה ידעתי כי ירא אלוהים אתה'. דבר שמוכנים למסור את הנפש עליו הוא מגדיר את ערכו, הוא נותן את הערך לחיים עצמם. עבור מה אני חי? עבור משהו שהוא יותר גדול מהחיים. העולם המערבי אומר שאין שום דבר בעולם שמוצדק למות עבורו כי עצם זה שאני חי זה דבר הכי חשוב, ומה עִם הנצח? אין דבר כזה".
Regarding the Kol Korei, if we really believe in the power of Torah and the power of tefila, think of how much more powerful the Clal's Torah and tefila will be once thousands of haredi families will literally have skin in the game, with tens of thousands of haredim having a close personal connection to someone in the IDF.
Entirety of this letter- "Why is the OU, an American organization which includes many people who sympathize with the chareidi point of view, not totally in line with the Dati Leumi position?"
Define "includes." The OU represents the Modern Orthodox part of American Jewry. Charedim never considered themselves represented by the OU.
If the OU "includes" so many charedim that it somehow feels threatened enough to have to pussyfoot around on these issues, then it should just keep its mouth shut anyway. The key word is "American" there.
I said it includes many people who sympathize with the chareidi position. Why is that hard to understand? Yes, that would definitely include Rabbi Hauer. No, he's not chareidi, unless you define chareidi as anybody who sympathizes with the chareidi position, which would be a really stupid definition.
I'm curious how you're defining chareidi. They generally support EY and aliya, don't recommend kollel for everyone, see value in chochmas umos ha'olam, are open (at least in theory) to women learning torah she'baal peh, see Rav Soloveitchik as their moreh derech... doesn't sound chareidi to me. They are makpid on halachah and think talmud torah is a necessary part of a jewish person's life - but thats judaism, not exclusively chareidi.
In America the line really blurs. Im not saying this as a criticism. Coud be that in חו"ל the chareidi way is the way to go. re Chochmat Haumot it dosent seem to be a priority to them as it was to Rav Lichtenstein or Rav Rabinovitch. Re עליה, many chareidim also value קדושת הארץ but they'll weigh in other שיקולים such as how it'll affect their תלמוד תורה. Same goes for the draft. Furthermore, they value a certain level of ביטול דעת that rivals that of the chareidi world. They don;t necessarily value critical thinking to the same extent as rambamists or even like students of the Gush. For example they will give shiurim defining doctrine "what is orthodox" which dosent really go back to primary sources. This is not neccesarily a problem. It just makes it hard to not view them as Chareidi-especially when you look at places like the Five Towns.
Every single YU rosh yeshiva (with the exception of the one from Israel) has at least one academic degree (bachelors), and many have a masters and a few have doctorates. That's not people who don't believe in secular study. Every one of them says Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut, etc. etc.
Again, they may not be to the taste of some of the more modern elements in Orthodoxy, but that doesn't make them charedim.
Rav Shachter is far far more chareidi compared to most of the Yeshivot Hesder. So is Rav Willig. You'd call them MO? My brother in law is in a chareidi high school with many sons of YU rashei yeshiva. If theyd send their sons to yeshivish schools then they dont prioritize תורה ומדע.
But he dosent view יישוב הארץ as an imperative. He says that its just another one of the תריג מצוות. He dosent give it the same emphasis as the dati world does. I dont think he has an issue with those who dont draft either. He appeals to a crowd which is not so different in essence than chofetz chaim or other non-lakewood yeshivot.
I already know that Mr. Slifkin thinks his viewpoint is correct, and everybody other viewpoint is wrong. My question is why he would be surprised that somebody from a completely different community would have a different viewpoint than him. It's basic social skills to understand such a basic concept.
I am not remotely surprised that someone from a different community would have a different view. My objection is that he is purporting to advance an approach which reflects/ should be adopted by MY community.
So you are surprised that somebody from a different community would have recommendations for your community? As if the concept of people from one community having recommendations for a different community is foreign concept to you? As if that's not what every single article on your blog is?
It's completely different. He's not saying "I think that the OU should change its historical affiliation and do something different." He's claiming to be the voice of the OU.
He is the voice of the OU. Why would you think that the OU would be consistent with your position? You expected all non-chareidim to have the same view?
I might have lots of disagreements with Yair Lapid, but I would never write a letter the essence of which is, "Why would you adopt a platform that is not exactly the same as Degel Hatorah?"
You just don't seem to get it. Arguments in which you continually dismiss the beliefs of the chareidi community will never ever persuade them to give up or change those beliefs. The far left is demonstrably wrong on so many issues, including and especially when they threatened and then carried out a reservist boycott of the IDF due to their "trying to save democracy" by giving 9 unelected officials invincible power over the country. Yet, there is no talking any sense to them by telling them they're wrong and that their behavior brought on October 7th. They'll never believe or accept that because they are hard core believers in a specific worldview. You cannot beat that belief by fighting it head on. You can only hope to bridge such divides by small baby steps of compromise. The problem is neither side wants to engage in the long and patient process. So instead they keep demanding instant dramatic changes and nothing ever happens. The left demands full drafting and integration of Chareidim in to the army AND the secular world - yes, that's the part they don't say out loud. And the Chareidim dig in and say absolutely not one boy is going. And yes, the Chareidim at this point just look at October 7th as an "excuse" for the left to get what they've demanded all these years. And this is because the left never ever showed the respect towards Torah and Torah lifestyle and sensitivity to their needs. They never built trust. Always hammers and bludgeoning. So you can scream until your red in the face, you're just adding to the useless cycle of mistrust and hatred. Fact: the Chareidim HAVE already begun the baby steps of moving towards more IDF draft. Fact: you will not get them to go one minute faster by demonizing them and their beliefs. Fact: unless you're ok with a civil war while you're fighting the enemy from without you ARE contributing more to the problem than the solution. Fact: this is all independent of the point of whether they are right or wrong. Fact: if you have even the slightest emunah in the Creator then, realizing the situation as it is, you wouldn't turn on gedolim and bnei torah, even if they're entirely wrong because you would be well aware that Hashem can EASILY make Israel win this war, decidedly, if you do the right thing, which is to not denigrate Torah and its learners and not increase conflict between Jews. If this means so much to you, join some of the rabbis that are already making a difference by doing exactly what I'm describing - not attacking Chareidim but working with them slowly, methodically and respectfully.
How old are you? If you are older than 10 you would know that this has been a battle the left has had against the Chareidim for decades. It's only recently, primarily since October 7th, that the dati lumi have also demanded it. In any event, you ignore the robust valid points of what I said and focus on a side point. This is how people who aren't good at solutions based living think. I recommend you hone your skills of critical thinking and debate AND willingness to see past the hand in front of your eyes. I'm not saying this in a snarky tone I'm saying this as good advice for you.
You don't need to apologize for a snarky tone, I love a good debate.
Let's discuss one by one - work with chareidim slowly, methodically and respectfully. Why ? Why should the Hesder community have to cater so much to the Chareidim after 10/7? Why can't Chareidim l'chatchila volunteer to join the army quickly and enthusiastically?
After 10/7, no one in the dati l'umi world is thinking about what leftist parties in Israel have done in relative peacetime in the past in regards to wanting Chareidim to join in order to assimilate them, etc. It's not relevant right now. We are talking as religious people - where is the desire to join in the fight and defense of am yisrael? Belief in Gd is not going to make the need to defend the people go away nor will it eliminate Hezbollah. Also, "bnei Torah" exist in the hesder community as well, so it's not really necessary to only refer to chareidim in that way.
There's no hand in front of my eyes, but perhaps you have to look at the reality and see what it is needed and what is fair.
I can debate quite fine, I was turned off by your initial idea that this is an issue of the left. Chareidim that support the IDF like Rav Leibel and the others you mention that are joining - terrific. The ones that protest and make statements invalidating the IDF - sad and frustrating, hence R' Slifkin's words.
You are certainly right that there are differences, but I think there is also common ground. This tension is precisely what I think is bubbling under the surface. I think leaders in both camps should have a public discussion and enunciate what we agree on and we do not.
Slifkins thinks if only the Israeli government threatened to stop giving kollel checks, that would persuade chareidim in yeshiva to enlist. This is seriously what he believes.
By the way, his first point, about the draft, is understandably getting most of the response, but it's not like the rest of his points are so great either:
-Talking about a unity government really betrays a lack of knowledge of what goes on in Israel.
-"As believers, ma’aminim bnei ma’aminim, we must recognize that the root cause of our galus is the poison of sinas chinam that continues to infect us."
I know this is going to freak out the "charedim" who come here to start fights, but in an age when anyone is free to move to Israel, the "root cause" of "galus" is Jews choosing to live outside Israel. That's what "galus" *means*, for God's sake: Living outside of Israel.
-"Klal Yisrael faces a gezeira that emanates from"
Um, first and foremost, *Israel* faces a *danger* from those places.
"Those external enemies seek to destroy the Jewish people and the holy Torah and it is they who threaten the future of the dramatic worldwide renaissance of Torah learning."
Y'know, at the moment, I'm a little more worried about the immediate physical threat to all Jews who live in Israel.
Let me just go through point one, though:
"This war has taken a very heavy toll of death, injury, and profound stress on the soldiers and reservists of Tzahal and their families. Haredim have legitimate fears about the impact of enlistment on their cherished way of life."
That is a completely unequal and immoral example of "both-sides-ism."
"Neither side may cavalierly dismiss the concerns of the other."
Why did he have to use the word "cavalier"? If we dismiss the "concerns" of the haredim, is that "cavalier"? Maybe we have good reason for doing so.
"Many – though certainly not all – of the leaders and decision makers on both sides, including Gedolei Yisrael and army leaders, are working diligently"
That is simply not true. The haredi leaders are doing zero to solve the problem.
"that does not force enlistment of those who are Toraso Umnaso, full-time yeshiva students"
Why should that be true?
"Both sides understand that this issue can no longer be kicked down the road and that they must acknowledge the problems and work together quietly and productively to address them"
Obviously not true, see above. And we all know that "quietly" is code for "do nothing." This is rank "achdus" fantasy.
The OU has long played this game of trying to represent all Orthodox Jews in America. All well and good, especially in some areas, not that it's actually true, of course, but in the more political ones, it would be helpful if the OU just acknowledged that the other side has the Agudah, and they can either represent the MO or stay out of these things.
(It's also interesting that by this post, he was jumping on the bandwagon of the fast declared by the Agudah.)
You write: "the "root cause" of "galus" is Jews choosing to live outside Israel. That's what "galus" *means*, for God's sake: Living outside of Israel."
No, you are mistaken.
Attributing the 'root cause' to 'choosing to live outside of Israel' is just your own assertion, and flies in the face of Jewish tradition, which clearly professes something different - the 'root cause' of Galus are spiritual failings.
On the second point, you are simply wrong. 'Galus' in the Torah (like everything) is primarily defining a spiritual and transcendent level. The physical separation from the land of Israel is only the material and circumstantial manifestation of an existential state of being - removed from G-d, absence of Divine Presence, and dispersion and fragmentation of Torah and Israel.
Yes, in our times, thankfully, our physical separation from the land has been removed, and perhaps the veils covering spirituality are easier to remove, but it doesn't follow that we are no longer in Galus. It is only the religious Zionist dreamers (well-meaning) who have foisted a messianic view on Israeli society. A nice dream, but if we are not careful, your dream may become a nightmare.
Go spend some time in one of the good Haredi Yeshivos that are so heavily criticized and you will find out. See as well the Maharal on the introduction to Avos - "לעולם ירשו ארץ"
Whenever the Torah and Neviim talk about exile, they are talking about exile. You could crack open a Tanach and read it for yourself.
I'm reminded about Rabbi Wein's story about a chassidish kid in Monsey who (rightly) couldn't get the deposit for his tenth bottle and said, "That's galus for you."
Rabbi Berel Wein was in a supermarket in Monsey (New York). A chassidish kid had ten bottles and wanted his nickel back for each of them, but the (non-Jewish) clerk would only give him for nine, saying the tenth didn't have a deposit. The kid threatened to call the clerk's manager; the clerk told him to go ahead and walked away.
The kid then saw R' Wein and said, "I could go to the manager, but he'd just say no too. Nu, what can you do? That's galus for you." And he skipped away.
Rabbi Wein then reflected that if "galus" is not getting your tenth nickel, then this must be the sweetest galus we've ever known. I mean, two generations ago, "galus" meant six million Jews murdered, and now it means five cents less you didn't even deserve.
*My* reflection is, what, this kid thinks that when Mashiach comes the rules won't apply? Or they won't apply to him? That when Mashiach comes, Jews will be able to walk into the supermarkets (in "galus," of course) and demand, and get, their nickel?
And herein lies the problem: People have a real twisted view of what Mashiach is supposed to be. Some Chabadnik just made an hour-long movie where he runs around to gentiles in Miami and described the Messianic era in terms that one of them quickly says "Sounds like the Rapture." He also tells his kids that when Mashiach comes, no one will ever be sick, etc. etc.
This is of course quite different from Jewish tradition, which says that "Mashiach" means that we will be sovereign over ourselves in our own land, no more, no less. Obviously part of that is the Mikdash and religion and peace and so on. But nothing (obviously) supernatural.
Where that leads us is smart alecks on this blog blithely declaring that the State of Israel means nothing, r"l, because "we're" in "galus." Afra l'puma.
"This is of course quite different from Jewish tradition, which says that "Mashiach" means that we will be sovereign over ourselves in our own land, no more, no less."
Looks like you have a very twisted view of Mashiach. The Rambam says
בימי המלך המשיח. כשתתישב ממלכתו ויתקבצו אליו כל ישראל. יתיחסו כלם על פיו ברוח הקדש שתנוח עליו. שנאמר (מלאכי ג, ג) "וישב מצרף ומטהר" וגו'. ובני לוי מטהר תחלה ואומר זה מיחס כהן וזה מיחס לוי. ודוחה את שאינן מיחסין לישראל. הרי הוא אומר (עזרא ב, סג) "ויאמר התרשתא להם" וגו' (עזרא ב, סג) "עד עמד כהן לאורים ולתמים". הנה למדת שברוח הקדש מיחסין המחזקין ומודיעין המיחס. ואינו מיחס ישראל אלא לשבטיהם. שמודיע שזה משבט פלוני וזה משבט פלוני. אבל אינו אומר על שהן בחזקת כשרות זה ממזר וזה עבד. שהדין הוא שמשפחה שנטמעה נטמעה:
....
ובאותו הזמן לא יהיה שם לא רעב ולא מלחמה. ולא קנאה ותחרות. שהטובה תהיה משפעת הרבה. וכל המעדנים מצויין כעפר. ולא יהיה עסק כל העולם אלא לדעת את ה' בלבד. ולפיכך יהיו ישראל חכמים גדולים ויודעים דברים הסתומים וישיגו דעת בוראם כפי כח האדם. שנאמר (ישעיה יא, ט) "כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה' כמים לים מכסים":
Ah, that makes, I forgot that getting a "deposit" back for returning bottles/cans was an old-timey thing. Thanks for clarifying.
That's a great story, and I think your comment is one of the best I've ever read on this site.
Incidentally, while the "rationalist" strain of Jewish tradition (exemplified, of course, by the Rambam) "holds like" you explained, I think there is definitely a more "mystical" (for lack of a better word) strain as well--both in the gemara and among rishonim like the Ramban--which argues that the Messianic Era will indeed be qualitatively different than the present age, including a proliferation of miracles and supernatural phenomena.
The Rambam holds there will be prophecy, world peace, and no sickness, hunger, or jealousy in the times of Mashiach. As far as you can get from the modern State of Israel.
Cute comment and story, but if you don't know how to learn, and don't understand what you are reading, your mistaken perspective doesn't suddenly become accepted fact. No, galus does not mean what you claim, but rather, as I tried to explain (for others reading this, if not you).
I am always amused to hear folks dismiss an understanding of any part of Torah that differs from their own as "don't know how to learn".
It reminds me of when I lamented to a Charedi wannabe/adjacent friend over the passing of Rav Adin Steinsalz. He replied that Rav Steinsalz wasn't a godol: why, he didn't even learn such-and-sucha sugyah like Rav Chaim! (He was referring to R' Chaim Soloveitchik, the Brisker Rov, not R' Chaim Kanievsky, but the point is the same either way.)
Great story, but here we are talking about understanding one word and concept. Nachum insists that his superficial reading and premise is absolute truth, and ridicules those who 'dont even know what 'galus' [supposedly] means'.
You can't make a claim that something will harm achdut if the other side isn't considered part of the achdut to begin, and frankly does not see itself that way either.
I looked up Hauer on the OU's site. I was mistaken: He isn't the president (who is the layperson who should be stating policy issues), but the executive vice president, the person responsible for running the organization day-to-day. Now, OU EVP's have long said things beyond their purview- I was present when the late R' Stolper said a shehecheyanu, b'shem u'vemalchut, over the demise of the Synagogue Council of America, and got to hear the anger in the room- but that still doesn't make it right.
And then there was this:
"Rabbi Hauer received his rabbinic ordination and doctor of Talmudic law from Ner Israel. He received his master’s of science from John Hopkins University."
Ah, suddenly his column makes a lot more sense: Were he to be living in Israel, he fully expects that his kids would be among those exempt from service. Got it.
R' Slifkin, I imagine you've seen R' Adlerstein's latest. I still quibble that he still has a few of the charedi cliches in their ("the IDF doesn't really want them"; "we should express our love"), but it's pretty strong and good.
We also have to remember that the O-U is a business [even as a not-for-profit]. The Modern Orthodox will eat their Hashgacha no matter what. The O-U needs to maintain their credibility with the right (which translates to Hareidi) so that their Hashgacha is accepted (they also want O-U certified raw materials, used by other manufacturers, to be accepted by more right wing Hashgachot).
Israel is unfortunately not really on top of their list of priorities... (These are not the activist [Soviet Jewry, Israel advocacy] modern orthodox rabbis who -at least I- interacted with in the 1970s)
Since the start of the war, the O-U has issued some disappointing stuff. O-U Israel's magazine had a cover picture showing a Hareidi man and a soldier embracing (same message of pseudo-achdut). A few months ago, I stumbled on a video showing a bunch of O-U rabbis meeting with one of the Satmer Rebbis to show off their new software for checking Mezzuzot. This was while Israel was fighting an existential war. I wrote them.. no response ["the O-U cannot personally answer the many letters that we receive.."]
Rabbi Hauer should not be referring to the haredi rabbis as Gedolei Yisrael. That's already buying into their political propaganda. They are haredi rabbis and nothing more, no better than anyone else, and certainly not the greatest among Yisrael.
Slifkin also shouldn't be using the title "Rabbi" for Hauer. "Rabbi" means "master" or "great" and Hauer is nobody's master and is no greater than anybody else.
I disagree.
Agudah is a political organization who assign their own Rabbis -- and no other Rabbis -- the title "Gedolei Yisroel."
Agudah's political agenda, whatever its merits, now becomes an argument from authority.
Rabbi Hauer -- and the RCA -- should not be conceding that ground.
I think even conceding the name "Agudah" is too much. Why should we call it the "Agudah" which means to tie together, when as Rabbi Slifkin astutely points out, the only separate? We should call it "Halaka", which contains the word "helek", meaning separate part, and is additionally a pun to make fun of hareidi haircuts in Meron which are also called "Halaka".
Even calling them Charedim is inappropriate. Charedim refers to חרדים לדבר השם. We should refer to them as Reguim, which means relaxers, since they don't work. /s
You're okay with the title 'Rabbi' for Slifkin tho. Very interesting.
Its achdus and aguda when dealing with just charedim. With the rest of klal yisrael there isnt much achdus.
Lol
For the record, this is the OU, not the RCA.
They do more than concede. They grovel.
Rabbi Hauer calls them Gedolei Yisrael because he believes they are Gedolei Yisrael. What's so hard to understand?
Dear Rabbi Hauer,
If we all are on a ship, and someone wants to play around in his room by carving out a hole in the floor. It is NOT Shinas Chinum to raise voices and scream at him.
I don't think Rabbi Hauer would disagree with you. It's not automatically sinas chinam to raise voices and scream, but it's a slippery slope towards sinas chinam, and that's exactly what RH is pleading with everyone to avoid
Slippery slope???!
Calling the soldiers that protect you Nazi's. The thousands of Charedim that call them that, is not Sinas Chinum?? Imagine in America if you went over to a veteran who risked his life for the country and called him a Nazi - Just one guy, just one time - the outcry would be terrible. The veteran would be justified to knock out his 2 front teeth.
Slippery Slope - have you NO shame??
Where are the thousands of chareidim who call soldiers Nazis? You made that up. The entire anti-chareidi position is based on lies, all the way down.
Made that up ??
Go to any video of these demonstrations against the army , or just recently a bus of soldiers accidently went into the Charedi neighborhood.
What you have to do is, turn on, or turn up, the volume and listen for a bit. If you cant hear it - you are a huge tzaddik that his ears do not hear anything bad. OR I can recommend you an excellent hearing doctor.
P.S. Oh, I just realized your name is "Fluffy cloud of Goodness". - You might be living up to your name. Stop the kidding and take your head out of the sand!
"Fetid Cloud of Methane"
That's very different. They're not calling all soldiers Nazis, they're calling the people trying to force them to draft nazis. It's a slur, but not worse than the slurs used by the anti-chareidim against the chareidim, like "parasite". They're not "demonstrating against the army", they're demonstrating against the chareidi draft.
I think you are missing something
.The word "PARISITE" means someone or some living thing - that lives off another living thing called the host.. Example I go to work everyday and I work hard, and another person who does not want to work then sucks out money from me - that is a Parisite. Maybe a harsh word that should not be used, however it fits into reality
On the other hand "NAZI" - was someone who killed Jews by putting a bullet in their head or like what they did to my grandmother and her 4 kids. They choked them to death in a chamber of gas.
Fluffy cloud OF goodness. Without going further I hope understand.
I don't think you read my comment correctly. Of course calling them nazi's is sinas chinam.
The slippery slope I am talking about is referring to the secular/DL yelling towards chareidim (which I assumed is what you were talking about with your ship mashal - is that not the case?)
I just love it when chareidim scream 'achdus!' yet don't have to compromise on one single thing and the rest of the country has to literally give up their lives to protect them. [[Eyeroll]]
This is not an example of chareidim screaming achdus, and as you can see, remarkably few chareidim are asking for achdus, but instead are talking about the war against Torah. Rabbi Hauer is not chareidi, and represents the OU, and is calling for achdus.
I think it is an error to view the draft debate in Israel as emanating from “sinas chinam, hatred between Jews.” It would be absurd to characterize the U.S. civil rights movement challenging Jim Crow laws as hatred directed toward the white population. Rather, that movement challenged an unjust legal regime and sought to assure that all citizens were treated equally under the law.
The circumstances in Israel are similar. This is a public policy issue attempting to address a policy regime whereby certain citizens have historically been treated preferentially regarding military service. In truth, this debate should not be referred to as a “Chareidi draft” issue at all. The discussion should be characterized as one of Israeli public policy and law, applicable to all citizens equally, for military service, and the consequences for any citizen who fails to observe the law.
Very well said.
It isn't well said at all. It misses the whole point. The hate is more systemic than actual. No one thinks any of you actually espouses hatred "for no reason". Rather, you feel injustice, which comes from your very different value system. That's a lack of understanding and one sidedness, and following through with that miopia, more than anything else.
As it turns out new public information reveals that at least k1/3 work full-time and at least 1/3 part time.New investigation seems to indicate perhaps even more.R. HAuer your living in fantasy.
"The discussion should be characterized as one of Israeli public policy and law, applicable to all citizens equally, for military service, and the consequences for any citizen who fails to observe the law."
When they start drafting the Arabs, you might have a point. Minister Amsalem actually petitioned the court to stop being hypocrites and do exactly that. Of course, he got nowhere. https://www.timesofisrael.com/high-court-rejects-likud-ministers-petition-seeking-to-draft-arab-israelis-into-idf/ Because some equalities are more equal than others. Just like the court can magically strike down laws as constitutional without a constitution, and even invalidate a constitutional amendment as unconstitutional. It's called safeguarding democracy, and if you disagree, you're a fascist who doesn't respect minorities' rights.
I do not think the issue of an Arab draft negates my point. Drafting Arabs could present difficult security issues for the military that are not present for the draft of Jewish citizens. Assuming hypothetically, however, that no such issues existed regarding an Arab draft, I see no reason why a military draft law should not apply equally to them as well.
You can't present analogies to ending discrimination in Jim Crow south while at the same time carving out a giant exception. It isn't coherent. It would be like exempting part of the KKK from having to comply with desegregation.
" It isn't coherent."
You're incoherent. You're presenting a stupid idea with the pretense of conviction. You know it's nonsense. Everyone knows it's nonsense. The only question (and an irrelevant one) is whether everyone knows you know it's nonsense.
So I'll ask you directly: Do you believe that Arabs should have an equal share in the burden of defending Jews?
If you do, you are a very sick individual held captive by secularist ideology- and it means that you are infected by a rotting secularism that average Israeli is immune from.
If you don't, then you're arguing dishonestly.
"So I'll ask you directly: Do you believe that Arabs should have an equal share in the burden of defending Jews?"
No. I'm not pushing for unwilling populations to be coerced into serving. You are. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
"No."
Then don't write stupid things like "When they start drafting the Arabs, you might have a point. "
"I'm not pushing for unwilling populations to be coerced into serving."
You don't actually believe there's an equivalence between coercing Jews to defend other Jews in a מלחמת מצוה and coercing Arabs. It's a stupid comparison.
It's an even stupider idea to try to force chareidim to serve.
You really want thousands of forced conscripts who see themselves as prisoners, the victims of religious repression? You think that will improve the army? It's just the most idiotic idea ever. You know it's nonsense. Everyone knows it's nonsense. The only question (and an irrelevant one) is whether everyone knows you know it's nonsense.
I am not sure I understand your point. I stated that, if feasible, conscription should apply to Israeli Arabs. But plainly, if there were a reasonable basis to conclude that their involuntary enlistment would degrade the military — and I am not claiming to make that assessment — such conscription would make little sense. Similarly, it would not be expected that the military conscript others who might degrade its capabilities, such as young children, the aged, incompetents, etc.
My point was in response to your analogy. You analogized the situation to ending discrimination. I'm arguing that your analogy is fundamentally flawed since it entails exempting the worst offenders. What you're effectively arguing is that charedim aren't treasonous enough. If only a few avreichim from Bnei Brak started committing terror attacks, they'd be excused from the draft too.
"What you're effectively arguing is that charedim aren't treasonous enough."
Quite a bit of nonsense speculation there. Charedim are not treasonous. Charedim are sufficiently patriotic, and benefit from Israeli Jewish society as Jews, and therefore should serve in the army. This can't be said for other groups of people who don't serve.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding. The point of my analogy was to address the suggestion of sinas chinam mentioned in the OU article, not to draw a parallel between U.S. Jim Crow laws and Israeli draft law.
To restate, just as the civil rights protests in the U.S. were not expressions of hatred towards individuals (i.e., white people) but, rather, against a perceived unjust legal regime (i.e., Jim Crow laws), the focus in Israel is upon perceived problematic draft policies, and not an expression of hatred toward particular individuals or groups. In sum, I disagree that a movement to revise the draft laws to fix perceived iniquities should be equated with sinas chinam amongst Jews.
"Because some equalities are more equal than others. "
And you think Arabs and Jews have equal obligations in defending Jews?
Why are you talking stupidity that you yourself don't believe?
"When they start drafting the Arabs"
That's a stupid idea. It's a phony and dishonest argument that you don't believe.
You appear to think that spluttering the word 'stupidity' enough times counts as a response. I've responded to Hanoch above.
On the contrary, if I wanted to really respond I wouldn't write "stupidity". But because it was stupid, I didn't offer a substantial response. But more to point, is that I don't think you're stupid, you just make stupid arguments which you don't believe in. You're not that stupid. If you were, then a proper response may educate you. But since your stupid arguments come from intelligence, you don't deserve a normal response.
Haredi response would be, "If so, why are we the only ones being targeted?"
"Why not the North Tel Aviv draft dodgers as well?"
I would agree with them. The law should be applied equally.
I agree that gov't should at least announce that they'll be going after North Tel Aviv draft dodgers as well.
However, Haredi exemption was blanket, official, legal, and explicit, not just a matter of individual actors knowing how to illegally work the system.
So the gov't has to set precedent and go after them first, to show that the old law no longer applies.
"If one group within the nation is harming everyone else, such as by weakening the IDF, and thus making our enemies' mission easier, then that group should certainly be opposed.
I do not think that there are grounds to equate the charedi dismissal of non-charedi concerns with the non-charedi dismissal of charedi concerns."
The head of Mechinat Eli disagrees with you.....
https://www.kipa.co.il/%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/1180509-0/
גיוס חרדים: "זה סדר אלוקי עמוק מאוד שלא תאבד תורה מישראל"
אחד הנושאים הנפיצים ביותר שעלו בעקבות המלחמה הוא אי-גיוס חרדים. לרב לוינשטיין יש תפיסה מקורית בנוגע לסוגיה ולדעתו מדובר בסדר אלוקי מדויק שגורם לכך שלא תאבד תורה מישראל. "העולם החרדי לא מתגייס משתי סיבות: אידיאולוגיה שלא רואה ערך בציונות וקושי לשמור על הזהות החרדית בצבא".
ויש לרב ביקורת על העמדה החרדית הזו?
"ממש לא. אני חושב שזה סדר אלוקי עמוק מאוד שלא תאבד תורה מישראל, כדי לשמור על ישראל סבא, על רצף התורה לדורות מסיני עד היום. בגלל זה חלקים בתוך העם היהודי מוצאים בקרבם יעוד ואחריות לשמירת המסורת של תורת ישראל על קוצו של יו"ד, לכן יש ציבור מאוד גדול שמוצא בקרבו דחף פנימי עמוק למסור את הנפש שלא תאבד תורה מישראל".
........but, hey, what does *he* know about any of the terrible sacrifices of the dati-leumi world?
למרות התפיסה שלו הבוחרת שלא לבקר את העולם החרדי, אחד ממפעלי חייו המרכזיים של הרב לוינשטיין היא המכינה בעלי. במלחמה האחרונה באה לידי ביטוי, באופן כואב מאוד, רוחה של המכינה כאשר 19 מתלמידיה ובוגריה נפלו בקרבות. הרב מרצין כשהוא מדבר על הנופלים. "עקידת יצחק היא ניסיון העשירי, ורק אחריו הקדוש ברוך הוא נתן תואר לאברהם אבינו, 'עתה ידעתי כי ירא אלוהים אתה'. דבר שמוכנים למסור את הנפש עליו הוא מגדיר את ערכו, הוא נותן את הערך לחיים עצמם. עבור מה אני חי? עבור משהו שהוא יותר גדול מהחיים. העולם המערבי אומר שאין שום דבר בעולם שמוצדק למות עבורו כי עצם זה שאני חי זה דבר הכי חשוב, ומה עִם הנצח? אין דבר כזה".
Regarding the Kol Korei, if we really believe in the power of Torah and the power of tefila, think of how much more powerful the Clal's Torah and tefila will be once thousands of haredi families will literally have skin in the game, with tens of thousands of haredim having a close personal connection to someone in the IDF.
Entirety of this letter- "Why is the OU, an American organization which includes many people who sympathize with the chareidi point of view, not totally in line with the Dati Leumi position?"
Define "includes." The OU represents the Modern Orthodox part of American Jewry. Charedim never considered themselves represented by the OU.
If the OU "includes" so many charedim that it somehow feels threatened enough to have to pussyfoot around on these issues, then it should just keep its mouth shut anyway. The key word is "American" there.
Of course, Hauer is charedi himself.
I said it includes many people who sympathize with the chareidi position. Why is that hard to understand? Yes, that would definitely include Rabbi Hauer. No, he's not chareidi, unless you define chareidi as anybody who sympathizes with the chareidi position, which would be a really stupid definition.
For too long the non Chareidi religious world and yeshiva world have groveled at the feet of the Chareidi world, including Y.U..
most of YU's ראשי ישיבה are pretty much chareidi today.
I'm curious how you're defining chareidi. They generally support EY and aliya, don't recommend kollel for everyone, see value in chochmas umos ha'olam, are open (at least in theory) to women learning torah she'baal peh, see Rav Soloveitchik as their moreh derech... doesn't sound chareidi to me. They are makpid on halachah and think talmud torah is a necessary part of a jewish person's life - but thats judaism, not exclusively chareidi.
In America the line really blurs. Im not saying this as a criticism. Coud be that in חו"ל the chareidi way is the way to go. re Chochmat Haumot it dosent seem to be a priority to them as it was to Rav Lichtenstein or Rav Rabinovitch. Re עליה, many chareidim also value קדושת הארץ but they'll weigh in other שיקולים such as how it'll affect their תלמוד תורה. Same goes for the draft. Furthermore, they value a certain level of ביטול דעת that rivals that of the chareidi world. They don;t necessarily value critical thinking to the same extent as rambamists or even like students of the Gush. For example they will give shiurim defining doctrine "what is orthodox" which dosent really go back to primary sources. This is not neccesarily a problem. It just makes it hard to not view them as Chareidi-especially when you look at places like the Five Towns.
Every single YU rosh yeshiva (with the exception of the one from Israel) has at least one academic degree (bachelors), and many have a masters and a few have doctorates. That's not people who don't believe in secular study. Every one of them says Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut, etc. etc.
Again, they may not be to the taste of some of the more modern elements in Orthodoxy, but that doesn't make them charedim.
No, they aren't. And even "pretty much" isn't charedi.
I mean, by Open Orthodox standards and claims, maybe. But not by any regular definition.
Rav Shachter is far far more chareidi compared to most of the Yeshivot Hesder. So is Rav Willig. You'd call them MO? My brother in law is in a chareidi high school with many sons of YU rashei yeshiva. If theyd send their sons to yeshivish schools then they dont prioritize תורה ומדע.
Many people would define chareidi as non- (or anti-) Zionist - according to this definition, Rav Shachter is certainly not chareidi.
But he dosent view יישוב הארץ as an imperative. He says that its just another one of the תריג מצוות. He dosent give it the same emphasis as the dati world does. I dont think he has an issue with those who dont draft either. He appeals to a crowd which is not so different in essence than chofetz chaim or other non-lakewood yeshivot.
Because the viewpoint is misguided. Not everything is equal.
I already know that Mr. Slifkin thinks his viewpoint is correct, and everybody other viewpoint is wrong. My question is why he would be surprised that somebody from a completely different community would have a different viewpoint than him. It's basic social skills to understand such a basic concept.
I am not remotely surprised that someone from a different community would have a different view. My objection is that he is purporting to advance an approach which reflects/ should be adopted by MY community.
This might win the award for most ironic comment of the year (ever?)
So you are surprised that somebody from a different community would have recommendations for your community? As if the concept of people from one community having recommendations for a different community is foreign concept to you? As if that's not what every single article on your blog is?
It's completely different. He's not saying "I think that the OU should change its historical affiliation and do something different." He's claiming to be the voice of the OU.
He is the voice of the OU. Why would you think that the OU would be consistent with your position? You expected all non-chareidim to have the same view?
Because he raises issues which indicate that one side of this debate are objectively wrong
He does not do that by any means. It's just his opinion.
Alright. Seems like we are at an impasse here. Have a good shabbos.
A good Shabbos to chareidim and their supporters, not to the other people.
Are you one of those rare people who thinks your viewpoint is wrong and every other viewpoint is right? Interesting.
I might have lots of disagreements with Yair Lapid, but I would never write a letter the essence of which is, "Why would you adopt a platform that is not exactly the same as Degel Hatorah?"
You just don't seem to get it. Arguments in which you continually dismiss the beliefs of the chareidi community will never ever persuade them to give up or change those beliefs. The far left is demonstrably wrong on so many issues, including and especially when they threatened and then carried out a reservist boycott of the IDF due to their "trying to save democracy" by giving 9 unelected officials invincible power over the country. Yet, there is no talking any sense to them by telling them they're wrong and that their behavior brought on October 7th. They'll never believe or accept that because they are hard core believers in a specific worldview. You cannot beat that belief by fighting it head on. You can only hope to bridge such divides by small baby steps of compromise. The problem is neither side wants to engage in the long and patient process. So instead they keep demanding instant dramatic changes and nothing ever happens. The left demands full drafting and integration of Chareidim in to the army AND the secular world - yes, that's the part they don't say out loud. And the Chareidim dig in and say absolutely not one boy is going. And yes, the Chareidim at this point just look at October 7th as an "excuse" for the left to get what they've demanded all these years. And this is because the left never ever showed the respect towards Torah and Torah lifestyle and sensitivity to their needs. They never built trust. Always hammers and bludgeoning. So you can scream until your red in the face, you're just adding to the useless cycle of mistrust and hatred. Fact: the Chareidim HAVE already begun the baby steps of moving towards more IDF draft. Fact: you will not get them to go one minute faster by demonizing them and their beliefs. Fact: unless you're ok with a civil war while you're fighting the enemy from without you ARE contributing more to the problem than the solution. Fact: this is all independent of the point of whether they are right or wrong. Fact: if you have even the slightest emunah in the Creator then, realizing the situation as it is, you wouldn't turn on gedolim and bnei torah, even if they're entirely wrong because you would be well aware that Hashem can EASILY make Israel win this war, decidedly, if you do the right thing, which is to not denigrate Torah and its learners and not increase conflict between Jews. If this means so much to you, join some of the rabbis that are already making a difference by doing exactly what I'm describing - not attacking Chareidim but working with them slowly, methodically and respectfully.
The far left barely exists in Israel, stop making up enemies
Wow, a lot of hot air about the "left" (?) when in reality it's centrist, dati-l'umi people asking chareidim to join with the nation.
How old are you? If you are older than 10 you would know that this has been a battle the left has had against the Chareidim for decades. It's only recently, primarily since October 7th, that the dati lumi have also demanded it. In any event, you ignore the robust valid points of what I said and focus on a side point. This is how people who aren't good at solutions based living think. I recommend you hone your skills of critical thinking and debate AND willingness to see past the hand in front of your eyes. I'm not saying this in a snarky tone I'm saying this as good advice for you.
You don't need to apologize for a snarky tone, I love a good debate.
Let's discuss one by one - work with chareidim slowly, methodically and respectfully. Why ? Why should the Hesder community have to cater so much to the Chareidim after 10/7? Why can't Chareidim l'chatchila volunteer to join the army quickly and enthusiastically?
After 10/7, no one in the dati l'umi world is thinking about what leftist parties in Israel have done in relative peacetime in the past in regards to wanting Chareidim to join in order to assimilate them, etc. It's not relevant right now. We are talking as religious people - where is the desire to join in the fight and defense of am yisrael? Belief in Gd is not going to make the need to defend the people go away nor will it eliminate Hezbollah. Also, "bnei Torah" exist in the hesder community as well, so it's not really necessary to only refer to chareidim in that way.
There's no hand in front of my eyes, but perhaps you have to look at the reality and see what it is needed and what is fair.
I can debate quite fine, I was turned off by your initial idea that this is an issue of the left. Chareidim that support the IDF like Rav Leibel and the others you mention that are joining - terrific. The ones that protest and make statements invalidating the IDF - sad and frustrating, hence R' Slifkin's words.
Charedim do not have the same beiefs and values as Dati Leumi.
You are certainly right that there are differences, but I think there is also common ground. This tension is precisely what I think is bubbling under the surface. I think leaders in both camps should have a public discussion and enunciate what we agree on and we do not.
"If you are older than 10 you would know that this has been a battle the left has had against the Chareidim for decades. "
Paranoid fantasies.
Slifkins thinks if only the Israeli government threatened to stop giving kollel checks, that would persuade chareidim in yeshiva to enlist. This is seriously what he believes.
Really? When did he say that?
Lots of places. For example
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/wonderful-if-its-kiruv/comment/61603509
", you wouldn't turn on gedolim and bnei torah, "
Except that it's not בני תורה who are being drafted now.
Except that UTJ argued for the early draft of בני תורה from non-חרדי communities.
You have been remarkably diplomatic here. Kudos
By the way, his first point, about the draft, is understandably getting most of the response, but it's not like the rest of his points are so great either:
-Talking about a unity government really betrays a lack of knowledge of what goes on in Israel.
-"As believers, ma’aminim bnei ma’aminim, we must recognize that the root cause of our galus is the poison of sinas chinam that continues to infect us."
I know this is going to freak out the "charedim" who come here to start fights, but in an age when anyone is free to move to Israel, the "root cause" of "galus" is Jews choosing to live outside Israel. That's what "galus" *means*, for God's sake: Living outside of Israel.
-"Klal Yisrael faces a gezeira that emanates from"
Um, first and foremost, *Israel* faces a *danger* from those places.
"Those external enemies seek to destroy the Jewish people and the holy Torah and it is they who threaten the future of the dramatic worldwide renaissance of Torah learning."
Y'know, at the moment, I'm a little more worried about the immediate physical threat to all Jews who live in Israel.
Let me just go through point one, though:
"This war has taken a very heavy toll of death, injury, and profound stress on the soldiers and reservists of Tzahal and their families. Haredim have legitimate fears about the impact of enlistment on their cherished way of life."
That is a completely unequal and immoral example of "both-sides-ism."
"Neither side may cavalierly dismiss the concerns of the other."
Why did he have to use the word "cavalier"? If we dismiss the "concerns" of the haredim, is that "cavalier"? Maybe we have good reason for doing so.
"Many – though certainly not all – of the leaders and decision makers on both sides, including Gedolei Yisrael and army leaders, are working diligently"
That is simply not true. The haredi leaders are doing zero to solve the problem.
"that does not force enlistment of those who are Toraso Umnaso, full-time yeshiva students"
Why should that be true?
"Both sides understand that this issue can no longer be kicked down the road and that they must acknowledge the problems and work together quietly and productively to address them"
Obviously not true, see above. And we all know that "quietly" is code for "do nothing." This is rank "achdus" fantasy.
The OU has long played this game of trying to represent all Orthodox Jews in America. All well and good, especially in some areas, not that it's actually true, of course, but in the more political ones, it would be helpful if the OU just acknowledged that the other side has the Agudah, and they can either represent the MO or stay out of these things.
(It's also interesting that by this post, he was jumping on the bandwagon of the fast declared by the Agudah.)
You write: "the "root cause" of "galus" is Jews choosing to live outside Israel. That's what "galus" *means*, for God's sake: Living outside of Israel."
No, you are mistaken.
Attributing the 'root cause' to 'choosing to live outside of Israel' is just your own assertion, and flies in the face of Jewish tradition, which clearly professes something different - the 'root cause' of Galus are spiritual failings.
On the second point, you are simply wrong. 'Galus' in the Torah (like everything) is primarily defining a spiritual and transcendent level. The physical separation from the land of Israel is only the material and circumstantial manifestation of an existential state of being - removed from G-d, absence of Divine Presence, and dispersion and fragmentation of Torah and Israel.
Yes, in our times, thankfully, our physical separation from the land has been removed, and perhaps the veils covering spirituality are easier to remove, but it doesn't follow that we are no longer in Galus. It is only the religious Zionist dreamers (well-meaning) who have foisted a messianic view on Israeli society. A nice dream, but if we are not careful, your dream may become a nightmare.
Rav Yaacov Emden claims that our continued Galut due to not returning to EY.
The Ramban states keeping the Torah in Galut is like practicing until we live in EY today.
Good point. Of course, the Eretz Yisrael that they are referring to is much more than the physical land.
What are they reffering to then?
Go spend some time in one of the good Haredi Yeshivos that are so heavily criticized and you will find out. See as well the Maharal on the introduction to Avos - "לעולם ירשו ארץ"
Whenever the Torah and Neviim talk about exile, they are talking about exile. You could crack open a Tanach and read it for yourself.
I'm reminded about Rabbi Wein's story about a chassidish kid in Monsey who (rightly) couldn't get the deposit for his tenth bottle and said, "That's galus for you."
“get the deposit for his tenth bottle”
What does this mean?
Rabbi Berel Wein was in a supermarket in Monsey (New York). A chassidish kid had ten bottles and wanted his nickel back for each of them, but the (non-Jewish) clerk would only give him for nine, saying the tenth didn't have a deposit. The kid threatened to call the clerk's manager; the clerk told him to go ahead and walked away.
The kid then saw R' Wein and said, "I could go to the manager, but he'd just say no too. Nu, what can you do? That's galus for you." And he skipped away.
Rabbi Wein then reflected that if "galus" is not getting your tenth nickel, then this must be the sweetest galus we've ever known. I mean, two generations ago, "galus" meant six million Jews murdered, and now it means five cents less you didn't even deserve.
*My* reflection is, what, this kid thinks that when Mashiach comes the rules won't apply? Or they won't apply to him? That when Mashiach comes, Jews will be able to walk into the supermarkets (in "galus," of course) and demand, and get, their nickel?
And herein lies the problem: People have a real twisted view of what Mashiach is supposed to be. Some Chabadnik just made an hour-long movie where he runs around to gentiles in Miami and described the Messianic era in terms that one of them quickly says "Sounds like the Rapture." He also tells his kids that when Mashiach comes, no one will ever be sick, etc. etc.
This is of course quite different from Jewish tradition, which says that "Mashiach" means that we will be sovereign over ourselves in our own land, no more, no less. Obviously part of that is the Mikdash and religion and peace and so on. But nothing (obviously) supernatural.
Where that leads us is smart alecks on this blog blithely declaring that the State of Israel means nothing, r"l, because "we're" in "galus." Afra l'puma.
"This is of course quite different from Jewish tradition, which says that "Mashiach" means that we will be sovereign over ourselves in our own land, no more, no less."
Looks like you have a very twisted view of Mashiach. The Rambam says
בימי המלך המשיח. כשתתישב ממלכתו ויתקבצו אליו כל ישראל. יתיחסו כלם על פיו ברוח הקדש שתנוח עליו. שנאמר (מלאכי ג, ג) "וישב מצרף ומטהר" וגו'. ובני לוי מטהר תחלה ואומר זה מיחס כהן וזה מיחס לוי. ודוחה את שאינן מיחסין לישראל. הרי הוא אומר (עזרא ב, סג) "ויאמר התרשתא להם" וגו' (עזרא ב, סג) "עד עמד כהן לאורים ולתמים". הנה למדת שברוח הקדש מיחסין המחזקין ומודיעין המיחס. ואינו מיחס ישראל אלא לשבטיהם. שמודיע שזה משבט פלוני וזה משבט פלוני. אבל אינו אומר על שהן בחזקת כשרות זה ממזר וזה עבד. שהדין הוא שמשפחה שנטמעה נטמעה:
....
ובאותו הזמן לא יהיה שם לא רעב ולא מלחמה. ולא קנאה ותחרות. שהטובה תהיה משפעת הרבה. וכל המעדנים מצויין כעפר. ולא יהיה עסק כל העולם אלא לדעת את ה' בלבד. ולפיכך יהיו ישראל חכמים גדולים ויודעים דברים הסתומים וישיגו דעת בוראם כפי כח האדם. שנאמר (ישעיה יא, ט) "כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה' כמים לים מכסים":
For some unfathomable reason you chose to begin your long quote with Halacha Gimel, skipping Aleph and Bet. I can't image why you'd do that.
So you think the State of Israel is Mashiach?
The רמב"ם (sort of) forbids messianic speculations. That would include insisting that the Jewish State isn't a step towards redemption.
You think it isn't?
Ah, that makes, I forgot that getting a "deposit" back for returning bottles/cans was an old-timey thing. Thanks for clarifying.
That's a great story, and I think your comment is one of the best I've ever read on this site.
Incidentally, while the "rationalist" strain of Jewish tradition (exemplified, of course, by the Rambam) "holds like" you explained, I think there is definitely a more "mystical" (for lack of a better word) strain as well--both in the gemara and among rishonim like the Ramban--which argues that the Messianic Era will indeed be qualitatively different than the present age, including a proliferation of miracles and supernatural phenomena.
I think history (which means God) is taking a side here.
They still have deposits in Israel.
The Rambam holds there will be prophecy, world peace, and no sickness, hunger, or jealousy in the times of Mashiach. As far as you can get from the modern State of Israel.
Cute comment and story, but if you don't know how to learn, and don't understand what you are reading, your mistaken perspective doesn't suddenly become accepted fact. No, galus does not mean what you claim, but rather, as I tried to explain (for others reading this, if not you).
I am always amused to hear folks dismiss an understanding of any part of Torah that differs from their own as "don't know how to learn".
It reminds me of when I lamented to a Charedi wannabe/adjacent friend over the passing of Rav Adin Steinsalz. He replied that Rav Steinsalz wasn't a godol: why, he didn't even learn such-and-sucha sugyah like Rav Chaim! (He was referring to R' Chaim Soloveitchik, the Brisker Rov, not R' Chaim Kanievsky, but the point is the same either way.)
Buy him a מרחשת
Great story, but here we are talking about understanding one word and concept. Nachum insists that his superficial reading and premise is absolute truth, and ridicules those who 'dont even know what 'galus' [supposedly] means'.
Thank you for proving the point.
You can't make a claim that something will harm achdut if the other side isn't considered part of the achdut to begin, and frankly does not see itself that way either.
I looked up Hauer on the OU's site. I was mistaken: He isn't the president (who is the layperson who should be stating policy issues), but the executive vice president, the person responsible for running the organization day-to-day. Now, OU EVP's have long said things beyond their purview- I was present when the late R' Stolper said a shehecheyanu, b'shem u'vemalchut, over the demise of the Synagogue Council of America, and got to hear the anger in the room- but that still doesn't make it right.
And then there was this:
"Rabbi Hauer received his rabbinic ordination and doctor of Talmudic law from Ner Israel. He received his master’s of science from John Hopkins University."
Ah, suddenly his column makes a lot more sense: Were he to be living in Israel, he fully expects that his kids would be among those exempt from service. Got it.
R' Slifkin, I imagine you've seen R' Adlerstein's latest. I still quibble that he still has a few of the charedi cliches in their ("the IDF doesn't really want them"; "we should express our love"), but it's pretty strong and good.
We also have to remember that the O-U is a business [even as a not-for-profit]. The Modern Orthodox will eat their Hashgacha no matter what. The O-U needs to maintain their credibility with the right (which translates to Hareidi) so that their Hashgacha is accepted (they also want O-U certified raw materials, used by other manufacturers, to be accepted by more right wing Hashgachot).
Israel is unfortunately not really on top of their list of priorities... (These are not the activist [Soviet Jewry, Israel advocacy] modern orthodox rabbis who -at least I- interacted with in the 1970s)
Since the start of the war, the O-U has issued some disappointing stuff. O-U Israel's magazine had a cover picture showing a Hareidi man and a soldier embracing (same message of pseudo-achdut). A few months ago, I stumbled on a video showing a bunch of O-U rabbis meeting with one of the Satmer Rebbis to show off their new software for checking Mezzuzot. This was while Israel was fighting an existential war. I wrote them.. no response ["the O-U cannot personally answer the many letters that we receive.."]
Great post. The letter was abominable.
You mistakenly wrote gedolei yisroel with capitalization..??