The MO have always had a very hard time with Hannukah. When studied from our Torah sh'ba'al peh, it seems to completely fly in the face of their entire worldview:
"By the way, to those who are wondering why comments are restricted to paid subscribers: Surely those who believe in the importance of defending charedi policy would see an $8 donation to the BMNH as a small price to pay for this mitzvah. Besides, parnasa is all in the hands of Hashem anyway."
Despite my issues with Rabbi Slifkin, I find those articles and cartoons to be highly distasteful. You have cited that website to me in previous discussions and my opinion has not been changed for the better. If the website administrator has issues with Rabbi Slifkin's scholarship, let him engage in respectful, congenial debate, as befits a scholarly discussion. Vulgar and insulting attacks have no place in the field of scholastic dispute.
I appreciate you expressing your concern. I want to assure you that our intention is not to resort to vulgar and insulting attacks. We understand the importance of fostering a scholarly environment, and we are committed to engaging in respectful, congenial debate. While it may seem that our approach is distasteful, we aim to address the issues with a touch of satire and humor.
Additionally, more often than not, the "issues" are not issues at all, rather synthetically fabricated excrement of a male bovine, created by demons tormenting the brain of a certain crazed and psychotic bored museum director. When the veneer coating these extravagant turd pies is removed, I can sympathize that you find it unpleasant.
Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns, and we hope to continue engaging with you in a manner that upholds the principles of respectful scholarly discourse.
Oh, it's extremely relevant this time. This post is about Slifkin trying to weasel his way out of al hanissim. Just look at all the comments from the various commenters who are asking him from different verses there. He didn't do a very good job, but it's not a new thing that the MO have a hard time with al hanissim.
על הניסים doesn't talk about the miracle of the oil.TheMO do not have " problem " with miracles nor with military victory. It's the Chareidim who don't toserve
Wait, I don't get it...the people down south deserved to be killed, but MDA should be punished for not saving them? Do these people not try to be consistent?
Incidentally, the Maccabim didn't seem to have a problem with Greek culture. A bunch of the brothers- maybe all of them- had Greek names. The Jews lived under the Greeks for 166 years before revolting. It was the religious repression that did it.
Oh, always a good time for a joke: The Greeks valued fitness and worshipped the body. We get our revenge on them by eating lots of donuts.
"Rabbi Brog finishes his shiur with some utterly vile motzi shem ra about how the people massacred in the Kibbutzim on October 7th were the “worst Jews, who hated Hashem and Torah and charedim.”
What a bizarre and disgusting thing to say. It's like something a teenager would say to get attention. Maybe the Chevron yeshiva students all deserved to die in the 1929 massacre also. I guess Hashem was trying to send the message that He hates yeshiva bachurim.
"He further issues the slander that “it’s only frum people running around and helping the country… I don’t see one secular Jew helping. And it’s not because they’re fighting in the war, you only see frum people in tanks. The only thing secular Jews do is protest the government... they should all go live in Gaza.”
What reality does this clown live in? Who does he think is in the Israeli army?
"And he concludes by falsely claiming that Magen David Adom didn’t send a single ambulance to the South and that nobody should respect or support them.)"
Oh, of course. Now ambulance services are evil also.
I can't believe these Rabbanim are respected . I grew up in the 1950's and 1960's and never did I hear such terrible and twisted statements.( except perhaps from Neturei Karta).
Maybe when you grow up Rabbis rose to prominence based on their scholarship? Nowadays you have far too many of these YouTube Rabbis, whom I regard as aspirant politicians.
Lying openly and despising the efforts of so many fellow Israelis in the war effort, he should be forced to hide in a hole! These people don't deserve to be called Rabbis.
Exactly right. Reb Moshe, Reb Yaakov, Rav Ruderman, etc., would never talk like this. There is a whole new breed of internet Rabbi/entertainers who become popular by saying dumb things.
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
"Rabbi Brog finishes his shiur with some utterly vile motzi shem ra about how the people massacred in the Kibbutzim on October 7th were the “worst Jews, who hated Hashem and Torah and charedim.”
Rabbi Slifkin, while I dont condone his statements , you have been guilty of the same in many of your posts. Just directed at a different faculty of jewish society.
I remember RNS saying and/or criticizing Chareidim for not criticizing
those who don't serve in Tzahal, disrespecting and deriding the soldiers,
with no appreciation for their role in protecting all of us. The Chareidim don't want to serve in the army so they downgrade every soldier and those who help the War effort. SORRY, IT'S
DISGUSTING! We will not forget! These Rabbanim should have their institutions defunded! They want money but don't exhibit proper empathetic behavior.They are cruel ! Their actions are not holy because their are Rabbanim who twist and turn logic,feelings,etc
Firstly,The above lecture above didn't say anything about the idf. Secondly,Rabbi slifkin has unjustly attacked many things about the chareidim not only the IDF ,Thirdly you just effectively called the Rabbanim cruel frauds who lack empathy,please please explain to me how that statement is any better than Rabbi brogs?! To pretend that type of attitude towards chareidim has not been prevelant on this blog is just objectively false.
I didn't listen to the lecture, but from what Natan quoted it seemed he was saying that only religious (Mizrachi) fight on the front lines, and the secular don't do that, taking less risky jobs instead. While this is obviously an exaggeration, Natan mentioned the same idea here last week, that very few Tel Avivians are putting their life in danger. So I'm not sure what you're getting so worked up about.
I spent several days at Rabbi Brog's shul when a family member was recovering from surgery. I felt welcome and respected, although I'm clearly not yeshivish. I'm a great fan of Rabbi Slifkin too, and I hope I never have to be in the same room with both of them at the same time. Happy Chanukah!
Hey Doc, whatcha doing listening to Rabbi Brog? Looking for some inspiration on torahanytime? Going through a midlife crisis? Richard Dawkins is not inspiring enough for you?
What truth , there are hundreds of lectures on Torah Anytime that express a tremendous amount of sympathy for the war. Its not like this Rabbi is saying "that everyone is thinking"
Is he some sort of reporter? Wonder why people are sending him these clips...
The world is full of these guys. Angry. bored, depressed souls, who surf the web al day looking for ways to blame the Jews for all the worlds problems.
"[Rabbi Brog finishes his shiur with some utterly vile motzi shem ra about how the people massacred in the Kibbutzim on October 7th were the “worst Jews, who hated Hashem and Torah and charedim.”]"
I could not help but wonder if Rabbi Brog joins the illustrious group Rabbis who also blamed 6000000 victims for their own demise because of the same reasons.
I was once present at a shiur of his on Shabbos Chanukah where he claimed that the victory of the Maccabees was solely due to their recital of "Yoshav Besaser Elyon" (Psalms 91)!!
The primary objective of the shiur was to clarify that the entire world works like that, and he cited numerous incidents of advice he gave to students whose wives were experiencing long labor or breach babies. The advice consisted of saying certain psalms for quick labor and saying it backwards for breach babies.
I can't vouch for the truth of his "success" stories, but even if they are true, he has somewhat of a cult following so the psychological effect of his fulfilling his segulas probably did the trick.
I have the pleasure and displeasure of coming m'chutz lamachane.
This allows me to state, publicly and truthfully, that unless I'm in charge, or at least receive a hearing by the hamoin am I am staying out of this whole kid n'kaboodle.
I'm too old to be useful in battle.
All that I have to offer is my wisdom and words, and they support no side of any ideology or group that I know of, either Jewish or otherwise Human.
So until people with platforms inform the masses that they ought to sincerely consider my words (because I am interested in conversing with the Jewish and Human masses, rather than with either of their current "leaders") I have no reason to subject myself to the lunatic tit-for-tat argumentation on this or any subject.
Which is why Nosson, I'm sharing with you a little piece regarding "hechereh zachen" which I shared tonight with members of my chabura.
Other than the inclusion of the subject of Moshiach along with Olam Haba and Tchiyas Hameisim, it suggests no point of view or philippic regarding the inyanei d'yoima.
If you would like a refreshing siesta from those inyanim in the disportive waters of rambam's general hashkafa on the aforementioned 3 matters I hope you will enjoy and perhaps even share this piece.
We can all use a step-back from the midst of battle for some Big Picture cogitation.
I just visited your blog and am very impressed! I was astonished to hear your prophecy that Moshiach is coming on October 12th, 2024! This is so exciting! You also seemed to hint pretty overtly many times over throughout your blog that you yourself are Moshiach. Are you really Moshiach? What else can you tell us about this?
Hello oiberchochim, all of my words are b'geder hamevin yavin.
If you are someone interested in understanding what I am saying so that you can join me if you agree or oppose me if you disagree then I will happily record a video with you which I will post to my channel and which you may post to yours.
Needless to say, _whatever_ I am talking about I am being serious. So, obviously, I will only do this video with you, or someone else, if I believe that you or he is serious too.
And because I am serious, it goes without saying that I would be most willing to be interviewed by the person of greatest renown available. As the quintessential oiberchochom Inhave no doubt you _should have_ the greatest renown, but, alas, we live in shallow times when a shteler and maybe a few books are regarded more highly by the amei ha'aretz than such self-bestowed honorifics.
But hey, at least you didn't have some oiberchuchem ask if you were Moshiach! 🕊️
Seriously though, I appreciate the comment and wish you a very happy Chanukah and a great deal of happiness, blessing and strength.
Maybe one thing I would clarify lest someone read your comment based upon your shallow reading of my words. I did not say that Moshiach is coming on that date. I exceedingly clearly stated that what happens on that date is up to us.
Nor do I hold the christian/childish perspective that Moshiach is...well, whatever it is that could make you think that a person could think he is Moshiach.
We are each supposed to try to take responsibility for the world to the greatest degree possible. The person of moshiach is not very important. I explained this at length in my ksavim.
I won't engage in a comment discussion here because I believe in worthwhile and genuine communication which is ideally done face to face.
So he worries about someone allegedly "slandering" secular Jews, but has no problem slandering religious Jews. Yeah, that's the kind of intellectual integrity we need more of...
You and your ilk are the most hateful people l have seen! Look at yourself first. RNS points out the extremes of some Chareidi Rabbanim.He doesn't say all Chareidi RabbanimAre you one of those giving these hateful shiurim. ?! Of course not ! So why are you upset?!
R.Brog throws Jews who died על קידוש הה because they are Jews. I don't see him dying על קידוש הה.So R. Borg's concept is o.k. with you. You need help. Brainwashed.
I'm not sure who you're responding to, but I didn't say a word about that.
(It's understandable though that Rabbi Brog would follow Rabbi Miller's opinion on the subject. Although in general it is accepted to consider all holocaust victims kedoshim, unlike Rabbi Miller's approach.)
Uh, actually he *does* speak of all charedi rabbonim. He goes even further - he slanders all charedim, period. The hateful דיבה is not limited to the rabbinate.
So you can't criticize Chareidim especially when you don't see other Chareidim debunking or criticizing these Chareidim. I have seen RNC cite Chareidim who don't agree with some of the extreme Chareidim. I remember criticism of RNS similar to the criticism we see on this blog . RNS then pointed out that not all Chareidim feel that way.He clarified himself by indicating that was always his intention. But the problem is that we don't see much open rejection of extreme views.That is part of the system. If you speak out your dead meat.Also many actually agree with R. Borg as indicated in this blog.
Not sure what you're talking about, but all feedback is appreciated. Meanwhile - cant's wait to see NS attempt to wriggle his way out of this latest hypocrisy. Always fun!
According to your response, there is no difference between prohibiting blasphemy against the dead and denouncing people who differ from the people of Israel, protect themselves from rain, cold and wind, car accidents, and more, and so do their children, but when it involves risking their lives, then they hide among a group of others who will die for them . This, in so-called religious claims but which have no halachic basis. Everything is a view! Since the view is in their favor, it is more than suspicious of personal bribery
Maybe bc of the length, but I didn't understand your reply. You agree NS slanders charedim here on a regular basis, right? Then its gross hypocrisy for him to worry about what he considers someone else's slander of secular Jews.
Out of respect for your biblical knowledge I'll resist the urge to answer your rhetorical question Jewishly (= with another one) and take the time to respond in detail:
NS slanders charedim on a daily or weekly basis on this blog. Just off the top of my head I recall him last month claiming charedim "don't know how to plan for large events" and " don't care about the public". He said that Charedim who resisted forced vaccination were "irresponsible". (He also said religious Jews who opposed Obama were really closet "racists", which I guess you're OK with - you've changed - but let's focus now on his slander of Charedim specifically.) These comments, and many, many, MANY more just like them constitute rank slander, of the worst kind. They border on and usually cross over into the realm of anti-semitism, in its rawest and most disgusting form.
He can say what he wants, its his blog and I dont believe in censorship in any event. But when I see him carping about someone else allegedly "slandering" secular Jews, while he's busy calling religious Jews the vilest of names - - then pardon me Nachum, but I'm going to call that out. And now I will go back to Jewish mode and respond to your question apropos: Does NS? Do you?
"Still, there is no getting around the fact that Al HaNisim, which was composed much earlier"
No idea why you are so confident about this. The first recorded text we have for על הניסים comes from the geonic siddurim, though the words על הניסים are already references in the Sheilltot. We don't know what earlier versions said, and the version commonly found in genizah manuscripts וכנסי פלאיך is pretty vague.
He was an excellent speaker, with the gift of eloquent communication. There's a reason for the renewed appeal in those "old" recordings. I probably would still enjoy much of what he had to say, even if some of the material is cringe-worthy.
That's fair. Some of what RAM said is indeed cringe worthy. Nu Nu. One is not מחוייב to accept every single thing he hears from someone, even from one's own rebbi. I personally have gained much from the very well-written Toras Avigdor booklets distributed world wide.
This is great. David Ilan called him a "racist" two comments ago. Now here's Ruth calling him a "misogynist". Someone want to call him a "homophobe" now? Any other 21st century woke-side epithets Cmon David Ohsie, where are you?
I'm sorry you're upset by a woman rightly pointing that avigdor Miller views women as inferior. Misogyny is not a 21st century concept, and neither is racism or homophobia. You seem very sad.
Look how you've been trained to think that everything revolves around your gender. "I'm sorry you're upset by a woman..." What does your being a woman have to do with anything? Do you always argue with people named Garvin?
Get off your high horse. And learn some basic respect, you can disagree with RABBI Avigdor Miller without embarrassing yourself.
The fact you call him rabbi speaks volumes. Be upset for him why don't you. Maybe light a candle on his grave for his yartzheit. Avigdor Miller is a whackjob
Congrats! You just won the award for the most moronic comment (so far) on this post! Quite an accomplishment, this provocative post has already attracted around 117 imbecilic comments, but taking umbrage that someone bestowed a religious leader of tens of thousands, Torah teacher, and yes, tzadik - the title "rabbi" and calling him a "whackjob" definitely takes the cake. Shame on you! What do you know? How much Torah? Tikkun Hamiddos? Yiras Shomayim? Do you even know what those terms mean? A little self-awareness, little girl.
You've already demonstrated that your ideal of Judaism is defined by what's in vogue on the woke street, so I guess I shouldn't be too upset. Rabbi Miller would not be too hot in San Francisco or SoHo.
Trying to figure out your position. Let's say someone doesn't like chareidim, because he/she/him/his/theirs/them thinks that chareidim are all misogynists/racists. Does that make he/she/him/his/theirs/them a racist? (This is all hypothetical, obviously).
Oh, he was VERY against it. Far more than mainstream Yeshivish. Satmar loved him for that and he used to regularly say shmuessen to a Satmar audience in Yiddish.
Like most litvish anti-zionists, his opposition was not a theological one, but spent a few years around the worst zionists, and learnt from there all their anti-torah views. Brisk was a hub of zionism, and so was munkacz. Hence the frum opposition from those towns.
Oh, so you actually believe it, it wasn't just an inference.
So when a boat is about to capsize, and there is one life jacket, who gets it - the man or the woman? What do you think? What does the Torah say? What happens when they don't coincide?
... believe in misogyny? Yeah, I do believe it. I experience it from people all the time. Sadly mostly from yeshiva guys. And the concept that a man can be misogynistic does not preclude the idea that others are not. Avigdor Miller is a misogynist. You are probably a misogynist, others are not.
Make it your campaign to put the miss back into Krismiss. A worthy life's goal.
But the belief I was referring to was that misogyny is a bad thing. Sorry, but genders are different, and nothing will change that. The attempts to make genders equal are cruel to both of us.
There were 12 Maccabbees, against tens of thousands of Yevanim. What's your rationalist explanation of their physical strength that got them to win the war?
12? Where did you get that from? They had hundreds from the start at least.
By the way, a bunch of fanatic, primitive goatherds in Afghanistan were able to overpower first one world power, the USSR (granted, with US aid, but hey, the Maccabees had Greek and Roman and Egyptian and Persian support- pretty much every world power at the time) and then the remaining world power, the US. All in less time, total, than it took the Maccabees to beat the Seleucids. The mujahedeen started fighting the Russians in 1979 and beat them in 1989. The US, from 2001 to 2021. That's 30 years of fighting and 42 from start to finish, both times against modern armed forces with air forces. It took the Maccabees 57 years to win independence. History is fun!
ואף בימי חשמונאים שגאלם מידי יון היה נס נראה דהיינו בנרות כדי שידעו כי הש"י היה מגביר אותם על היונים ולא יאמרו כחם ועוצם ידם עשתה זאת
The implication is that the miracle of the military victory was not so obvious as to allow the misconception of כוחי ועוצם ידי, which would be farfetched if we assume a literal 13 (including אלעזר) vs. tens of thousands.
To be fair, that could have been when Mattisyahu originally stood up, or something else being dependent on that number. Sefer Maccabim gives like a 1-6 ratio. We are not the first generation to notice this so I am sure this is spoken about.
I don't think anyone thinks it was literally only 12 Maccabees against the entire Syrian-Greek army. (That kind of would have made the news at the time, don't you think?) They were just the leaders of the revolt. It was still a miracle that they won though.
So 'nobody thinks' passes for logic in your crowd, does it?
This story was a miracle. As contemporary sources tell us. You are living in a world that doesn't accept the idea of miracles. Known as anachronistic in some circles.
I googled the news of that day and I didn't find it. Maybe that should be a problem.
Yes, it was a miracle, but it wasn't 12 vs. 10,000. Hashem didn't turn them into Marvel superheroes. What source do you have that only those 12 Maccabees fought the Greeks, and no one else?
If you would spend more time thinking and educating yourself, and less time coming up with silly nicknames, maybe you would end up knowing something.
You are sure that it wasn't 12, ignoring the source material. And no, if you don't know Chumash Rashi, pointing out the Mar'eh Makom is useless.
In today's egalitarian society, ignorance and knowledge are equal. So much so that even the Weavers of the world consider their gas releases to be 'opinions'.
Reb Zundel, I assume you are merely playing with Sir Weaver. A sage and scholar of your stature must surely concede that it is possible to reconcile that statement of Rashi with the Book of Maccabees, which, despite it's unknown authorship, is considered by historians, even of the "yeshivish" persuasion, to be generally reliable. To claim that the Book of Maccabees is a complete forgery, or is filled with utter lies, seems to be unnecessary, wouldn't you agree?
You sure know how to get me to agree with you. Just continue with the flattery. 'Sage and scholar' is only the beginning.
Of course it is possible to reconcile that statement of Rashi with the Book of Maccabees. I was taking umbrage with the attitude. In his world, Maccabees is absolute gospel truth, and Rashi is just some other author. Besides the zilzul hatorah in that attitude, it is also quite stupid and evidence of an uneducated mind.
Did you bother to learn Chumash Rashi? Because last time I checked, that is an obligation on every Jew. Whereas the Book of Maccabees may or may not be included in the Halacha in Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 307:17
Book of Maccabees and Josephus are the only sources we have for the details of the Channuka story. There actually multiple versions of what sparked the revolt, not that really makes a difference.
That is how we are נבדל מן התועים, who have to rely on anonymous sources. The תועים believe anything with the zeal of a monk, as long as it is not Chazal or Torah.
Silly! That was made up by revisionist Talmudic sages. The same with zeidim b'yad oskei toratecha. They changed the story of Hannukah from being about our mighty military might to making it into a religious victory, much like the Haredim still do today.
You can't try to use Al hanissim as a proof. Al hanissim is all about making Hanukkah into a religious miracle, and it was written by the Sages, who were Haredi.
My point is there is clearly an allusion to the oil miracle in Al Hanisim, contrary to Rabbi Slifkin's assertion. I don't see how your comments are relevant on this issue.
Well in that case there is no proof the Chashmonaim lit the menora out of the Azara. It is also mashma in the Rambam that one can light the menora in the Azara but not further out, so you'll need proof to say they lit it in Yerushalayim.
That's exactly my point. They lit it in the heichal, and בחצרות קדשך is here used not as a specific place but as a poetic name for the Beis Hamikdash in Jerusalem
In pshat that is also talking about the azarah. And it's certainly not talking about the Temple building because drinking wine is forbidden there.
In any case it would be strange for Al Hanisim to use a rare circumlocution for the city of Jerusalem to refer to something that happens in the Temple building.
No, Al Hanisim is a thanksgiving tefilah about the victory. Just like there is no mention in Al Hanisim of the many sacrifices they offered to rededicate the Bais Hamikdash which the author of Book of Maccabees writes about.
That is not the purpose of the prayer. The original version, in Rambam, Rokeiach and all rishonim concludes with כשם שעשית עמהן פלא ונסים כך עשה עמנו נסים וגבורות בעת ובעונה הזאת, so the emphasis is on the salvation.
The MO have always had a very hard time with Hannukah. When studied from our Torah sh'ba'al peh, it seems to completely fly in the face of their entire worldview:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/difficult-questions-about-hannukah
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/merry-krismiss-to-all-the-kofrim
Natan writes this on his next post
"By the way, to those who are wondering why comments are restricted to paid subscribers: Surely those who believe in the importance of defending charedi policy would see an $8 donation to the BMNH as a small price to pay for this mitzvah. Besides, parnasa is all in the hands of Hashem anyway."
The problem is that he will just ban everybody who defends chareidi policy, as he has done in the past. Because he is a lily-livered coward. And you won't even get your $8 back! As the Irrationalist Modoxer explained over here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/do-rationalists-need-special-protection
Despite my issues with Rabbi Slifkin, I find those articles and cartoons to be highly distasteful. You have cited that website to me in previous discussions and my opinion has not been changed for the better. If the website administrator has issues with Rabbi Slifkin's scholarship, let him engage in respectful, congenial debate, as befits a scholarly discussion. Vulgar and insulting attacks have no place in the field of scholastic dispute.
Dear Rabbi Perlin,
I appreciate you expressing your concern. I want to assure you that our intention is not to resort to vulgar and insulting attacks. We understand the importance of fostering a scholarly environment, and we are committed to engaging in respectful, congenial debate. While it may seem that our approach is distasteful, we aim to address the issues with a touch of satire and humor.
Additionally, more often than not, the "issues" are not issues at all, rather synthetically fabricated excrement of a male bovine, created by demons tormenting the brain of a certain crazed and psychotic bored museum director. When the veneer coating these extravagant turd pies is removed, I can sympathize that you find it unpleasant.
Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns, and we hope to continue engaging with you in a manner that upholds the principles of respectful scholarly discourse.
The outpatients are out on vacation again, I see. Why don't you go blog on your own little site, so anybody who goes there can get more of YOU?
Who let the bananas out?
(Who, who, who, who)
Who let the bananas out?
(Who, who, who, who)
Who let the bananas out?
(Who, who, who, who)
Good question!
How is this comment relevant to the blog post?
If you would read the posts you would see the relevance
Oh, it's extremely relevant this time. This post is about Slifkin trying to weasel his way out of al hanissim. Just look at all the comments from the various commenters who are asking him from different verses there. He didn't do a very good job, but it's not a new thing that the MO have a hard time with al hanissim.
על הניסים doesn't talk about the miracle of the oil.TheMO do not have " problem " with miracles nor with military victory. It's the Chareidim who don't toserve
Wait, I don't get it...the people down south deserved to be killed, but MDA should be punished for not saving them? Do these people not try to be consistent?
Incidentally, the Maccabim didn't seem to have a problem with Greek culture. A bunch of the brothers- maybe all of them- had Greek names. The Jews lived under the Greeks for 166 years before revolting. It was the religious repression that did it.
Oh, always a good time for a joke: The Greeks valued fitness and worshipped the body. We get our revenge on them by eating lots of donuts.
אנטיגונוס איש סוכן, remember him!
Lived a number of decades before the Maccabim, but yes.
I never heard him say they deserve to be killed? Did he?
"Rabbi Brog finishes his shiur with some utterly vile motzi shem ra about how the people massacred in the Kibbutzim on October 7th were the “worst Jews, who hated Hashem and Torah and charedim.”
What a bizarre and disgusting thing to say. It's like something a teenager would say to get attention. Maybe the Chevron yeshiva students all deserved to die in the 1929 massacre also. I guess Hashem was trying to send the message that He hates yeshiva bachurim.
"He further issues the slander that “it’s only frum people running around and helping the country… I don’t see one secular Jew helping. And it’s not because they’re fighting in the war, you only see frum people in tanks. The only thing secular Jews do is protest the government... they should all go live in Gaza.”
What reality does this clown live in? Who does he think is in the Israeli army?
"And he concludes by falsely claiming that Magen David Adom didn’t send a single ambulance to the South and that nobody should respect or support them.)"
Oh, of course. Now ambulance services are evil also.
I can't believe these Rabbanim are respected . I grew up in the 1950's and 1960's and never did I hear such terrible and twisted statements.( except perhaps from Neturei Karta).
Maybe when you grow up Rabbis rose to prominence based on their scholarship? Nowadays you have far too many of these YouTube Rabbis, whom I regard as aspirant politicians.
Lying openly and despising the efforts of so many fellow Israelis in the war effort, he should be forced to hide in a hole! These people don't deserve to be called Rabbis.
Exactly right. Reb Moshe, Reb Yaakov, Rav Ruderman, etc., would never talk like this. There is a whole new breed of internet Rabbi/entertainers who become popular by saying dumb things.
I actually agree to the first part of your comment.
״מכאן אמרו חכמים ״יפה שתיקה לחכמים קל וחומר לטפשים״ שנאמר (משלי יז) ״אויל מחריש חכם יחשב" ״ (מסכת פסחים פרק ט, דף צ"ט ע"א)
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
״אַבְטַלְיוֹן אוֹמֵר:
חֲכָמִים,
הִזָּהֲרוּ בְּדִבְרֵיכֶם;
שֶׁמָּא תָּחוֹבוּ חוֹבַת גָּלוּת,
וְתִגְלוּ לִמְקוֹם מַיִם הָרָעִים,
וְיִשְׁתּוּ הַתַּלְמִידִים הַבָּאִים אַחֲרֵיכֶם וְיָמוּתוּ,
וְנִמְצָא שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם מִתְחַלֵּל״ (משנה אבות א יא)
Research the politics between Hatzalah, Ichud Hatzalah, and MDA, and come back to me about those ambulance services.
"Rabbi Brog finishes his shiur with some utterly vile motzi shem ra about how the people massacred in the Kibbutzim on October 7th were the “worst Jews, who hated Hashem and Torah and charedim.”
Rabbi Slifkin, while I dont condone his statements , you have been guilty of the same in many of your posts. Just directed at a different faculty of jewish society.
I remember RNS saying and/or criticizing Chareidim for not criticizing
those who don't serve in Tzahal, disrespecting and deriding the soldiers,
with no appreciation for their role in protecting all of us. The Chareidim don't want to serve in the army so they downgrade every soldier and those who help the War effort. SORRY, IT'S
DISGUSTING! We will not forget! These Rabbanim should have their institutions defunded! They want money but don't exhibit proper empathetic behavior.They are cruel ! Their actions are not holy because their are Rabbanim who twist and turn logic,feelings,etc
to cover and justify their actions.
Firstly,The above lecture above didn't say anything about the idf. Secondly,Rabbi slifkin has unjustly attacked many things about the chareidim not only the IDF ,Thirdly you just effectively called the Rabbanim cruel frauds who lack empathy,please please explain to me how that statement is any better than Rabbi brogs?! To pretend that type of attitude towards chareidim has not been prevelant on this blog is just objectively false.
I didn't listen to the lecture, but from what Natan quoted it seemed he was saying that only religious (Mizrachi) fight on the front lines, and the secular don't do that, taking less risky jobs instead. While this is obviously an exaggeration, Natan mentioned the same idea here last week, that very few Tel Avivians are putting their life in danger. So I'm not sure what you're getting so worked up about.
I spent several days at Rabbi Brog's shul when a family member was recovering from surgery. I felt welcome and respected, although I'm clearly not yeshivish. I'm a great fan of Rabbi Slifkin too, and I hope I never have to be in the same room with both of them at the same time. Happy Chanukah!
I would love to be in the same room as them. That would be EPIC.
Can someone ask Sean Hannity to host a debate between the 2 of them?
Hey Doc, whatcha doing listening to Rabbi Brog? Looking for some inspiration on torahanytime? Going through a midlife crisis? Richard Dawkins is not inspiring enough for you?
The truth hurts!?
What truth , there are hundreds of lectures on Torah Anytime that express a tremendous amount of sympathy for the war. Its not like this Rabbi is saying "that everyone is thinking"
No idea what you're referring to.
That's even see worse.
Cabbage face has a Stupid comment
Obviously someone sent to him and he is listening to relevant views on the war to write up on
Is he some sort of reporter? Wonder why people are sending him these clips...
The world is full of these guys. Angry. bored, depressed souls, who surf the web al day looking for ways to blame the Jews for all the worlds problems.
Check out this website from Natan's mentor
https://davidduke.com/
Look at yourself
Sure. I'm always blaming the Jews for all the worlds problems. Howdya guess.
Doesn’t surprise me Brog comes from Avigdor Miller. He spouted hatred and racism as well…
Reading the quote that
"[Rabbi Brog finishes his shiur with some utterly vile motzi shem ra about how the people massacred in the Kibbutzim on October 7th were the “worst Jews, who hated Hashem and Torah and charedim.”]"
I could not help but wonder if Rabbi Brog joins the illustrious group Rabbis who also blamed 6000000 victims for their own demise because of the same reasons.
Rabbi Brog has a completely mystical worldview.
I was once present at a shiur of his on Shabbos Chanukah where he claimed that the victory of the Maccabees was solely due to their recital of "Yoshav Besaser Elyon" (Psalms 91)!!
The primary objective of the shiur was to clarify that the entire world works like that, and he cited numerous incidents of advice he gave to students whose wives were experiencing long labor or breach babies. The advice consisted of saying certain psalms for quick labor and saying it backwards for breach babies.
I can't vouch for the truth of his "success" stories, but even if they are true, he has somewhat of a cult following so the psychological effect of his fulfilling his segulas probably did the trick.
Backwards? So, nonsense?
I have the pleasure and displeasure of coming m'chutz lamachane.
This allows me to state, publicly and truthfully, that unless I'm in charge, or at least receive a hearing by the hamoin am I am staying out of this whole kid n'kaboodle.
I'm too old to be useful in battle.
All that I have to offer is my wisdom and words, and they support no side of any ideology or group that I know of, either Jewish or otherwise Human.
So until people with platforms inform the masses that they ought to sincerely consider my words (because I am interested in conversing with the Jewish and Human masses, rather than with either of their current "leaders") I have no reason to subject myself to the lunatic tit-for-tat argumentation on this or any subject.
Which is why Nosson, I'm sharing with you a little piece regarding "hechereh zachen" which I shared tonight with members of my chabura.
Other than the inclusion of the subject of Moshiach along with Olam Haba and Tchiyas Hameisim, it suggests no point of view or philippic regarding the inyanei d'yoima.
If you would like a refreshing siesta from those inyanim in the disportive waters of rambam's general hashkafa on the aforementioned 3 matters I hope you will enjoy and perhaps even share this piece.
We can all use a step-back from the midst of battle for some Big Picture cogitation.
https://ydydy.substack.com/p/maimonides-explained
Be blessed,
Rabbi Moshe Yedidya
Hi Rabbi Ydydy,
I just visited your blog and am very impressed! I was astonished to hear your prophecy that Moshiach is coming on October 12th, 2024! This is so exciting! You also seemed to hint pretty overtly many times over throughout your blog that you yourself are Moshiach. Are you really Moshiach? What else can you tell us about this?
Hello oiberchochim, all of my words are b'geder hamevin yavin.
If you are someone interested in understanding what I am saying so that you can join me if you agree or oppose me if you disagree then I will happily record a video with you which I will post to my channel and which you may post to yours.
Needless to say, _whatever_ I am talking about I am being serious. So, obviously, I will only do this video with you, or someone else, if I believe that you or he is serious too.
And because I am serious, it goes without saying that I would be most willing to be interviewed by the person of greatest renown available. As the quintessential oiberchochom Inhave no doubt you _should have_ the greatest renown, but, alas, we live in shallow times when a shteler and maybe a few books are regarded more highly by the amei ha'aretz than such self-bestowed honorifics.
But hey, at least you didn't have some oiberchuchem ask if you were Moshiach! 🕊️
Seriously though, I appreciate the comment and wish you a very happy Chanukah and a great deal of happiness, blessing and strength.
Maybe one thing I would clarify lest someone read your comment based upon your shallow reading of my words. I did not say that Moshiach is coming on that date. I exceedingly clearly stated that what happens on that date is up to us.
Nor do I hold the christian/childish perspective that Moshiach is...well, whatever it is that could make you think that a person could think he is Moshiach.
We are each supposed to try to take responsibility for the world to the greatest degree possible. The person of moshiach is not very important. I explained this at length in my ksavim.
I won't engage in a comment discussion here because I believe in worthwhile and genuine communication which is ideally done face to face.
So he worries about someone allegedly "slandering" secular Jews, but has no problem slandering religious Jews. Yeah, that's the kind of intellectual integrity we need more of...
You and your ilk are the most hateful people l have seen! Look at yourself first. RNS points out the extremes of some Chareidi Rabbanim.He doesn't say all Chareidi RabbanimAre you one of those giving these hateful shiurim. ?! Of course not ! So why are you upset?!
"RNS points out the extremes of some Chareidi Rabbanim. He doesn't say all Chareidi Rabbanim"
And Garvin points out the anti-semitism of ONE allegedly modox museum director. He doesn't say ALL museum directors are anti-semites.
So what's the issue?
R.Brog throws Jews who died על קידוש הה because they are Jews. I don't see him dying על קידוש הה.So R. Borg's concept is o.k. with you. You need help. Brainwashed.
I'm not sure who you're responding to, but I didn't say a word about that.
(It's understandable though that Rabbi Brog would follow Rabbi Miller's opinion on the subject. Although in general it is accepted to consider all holocaust victims kedoshim, unlike Rabbi Miller's approach.)
Please point out in this article where he specified this was an extreme approach.
Uh, actually he *does* speak of all charedi rabbonim. He goes even further - he slanders all charedim, period. The hateful דיבה is not limited to the rabbinate.
So you can't criticize Chareidim especially when you don't see other Chareidim debunking or criticizing these Chareidim. I have seen RNC cite Chareidim who don't agree with some of the extreme Chareidim. I remember criticism of RNS similar to the criticism we see on this blog . RNS then pointed out that not all Chareidim feel that way.He clarified himself by indicating that was always his intention. But the problem is that we don't see much open rejection of extreme views.That is part of the system. If you speak out your dead meat.Also many actually agree with R. Borg as indicated in this blog.
You seem to have an unhealthy fixation about those particular secular jews.
Not sure what you're talking about, but all feedback is appreciated. Meanwhile - cant's wait to see NS attempt to wriggle his way out of this latest hypocrisy. Always fun!
https://open.substack.com/pub/rationalistjudaism/p/can-the-whole-world-be-wrong?r=1vu5hw&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=43582350
https://open.substack.com/pub/rationalistjudaism/p/why-israel?r=1vu5hw&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=43105142
Agreed, it was unconvincing there too.
According to your response, there is no difference between prohibiting blasphemy against the dead and denouncing people who differ from the people of Israel, protect themselves from rain, cold and wind, car accidents, and more, and so do their children, but when it involves risking their lives, then they hide among a group of others who will die for them . This, in so-called religious claims but which have no halachic basis. Everything is a view! Since the view is in their favor, it is more than suspicious of personal bribery
Maybe bc of the length, but I didn't understand your reply. You agree NS slanders charedim here on a regular basis, right? Then its gross hypocrisy for him to worry about what he considers someone else's slander of secular Jews.
Do you know what "slander" means?
Out of respect for your biblical knowledge I'll resist the urge to answer your rhetorical question Jewishly (= with another one) and take the time to respond in detail:
NS slanders charedim on a daily or weekly basis on this blog. Just off the top of my head I recall him last month claiming charedim "don't know how to plan for large events" and " don't care about the public". He said that Charedim who resisted forced vaccination were "irresponsible". (He also said religious Jews who opposed Obama were really closet "racists", which I guess you're OK with - you've changed - but let's focus now on his slander of Charedim specifically.) These comments, and many, many, MANY more just like them constitute rank slander, of the worst kind. They border on and usually cross over into the realm of anti-semitism, in its rawest and most disgusting form.
He can say what he wants, its his blog and I dont believe in censorship in any event. But when I see him carping about someone else allegedly "slandering" secular Jews, while he's busy calling religious Jews the vilest of names - - then pardon me Nachum, but I'm going to call that out. And now I will go back to Jewish mode and respond to your question apropos: Does NS? Do you?
"Still, there is no getting around the fact that Al HaNisim, which was composed much earlier"
No idea why you are so confident about this. The first recorded text we have for על הניסים comes from the geonic siddurim, though the words על הניסים are already references in the Sheilltot. We don't know what earlier versions said, and the version commonly found in genizah manuscripts וכנסי פלאיך is pretty vague.
He's fringe just like his grandfather. However, the yeshiva community has recently been trying to rehabilitate him as mainstream.
I am always surprised that people see avigdor Miller as someone to emulate. He is an angry misogynist.
God is a misogynist for making women shorter and weaker than men.
Only if your way of judging people is by their height and physical strength.
So do you believe being stronger gives you zero advantages in life?
(I agree height doesn't help much. It's just God's way of telling us that men are supposed to be in charge. Even your good friend Haman agrees.)
He was an excellent speaker, with the gift of eloquent communication. There's a reason for the renewed appeal in those "old" recordings. I probably would still enjoy much of what he had to say, even if some of the material is cringe-worthy.
That's fair. Some of what RAM said is indeed cringe worthy. Nu Nu. One is not מחוייב to accept every single thing he hears from someone, even from one's own rebbi. I personally have gained much from the very well-written Toras Avigdor booklets distributed world wide.
This is great. David Ilan called him a "racist" two comments ago. Now here's Ruth calling him a "misogynist". Someone want to call him a "homophobe" now? Any other 21st century woke-side epithets Cmon David Ohsie, where are you?
I'm sorry you're upset by a woman rightly pointing that avigdor Miller views women as inferior. Misogyny is not a 21st century concept, and neither is racism or homophobia. You seem very sad.
Look how you've been trained to think that everything revolves around your gender. "I'm sorry you're upset by a woman..." What does your being a woman have to do with anything? Do you always argue with people named Garvin?
Get off your high horse. And learn some basic respect, you can disagree with RABBI Avigdor Miller without embarrassing yourself.
The fact you call him rabbi speaks volumes. Be upset for him why don't you. Maybe light a candle on his grave for his yartzheit. Avigdor Miller is a whackjob
Congrats! You just won the award for the most moronic comment (so far) on this post! Quite an accomplishment, this provocative post has already attracted around 117 imbecilic comments, but taking umbrage that someone bestowed a religious leader of tens of thousands, Torah teacher, and yes, tzadik - the title "rabbi" and calling him a "whackjob" definitely takes the cake. Shame on you! What do you know? How much Torah? Tikkun Hamiddos? Yiras Shomayim? Do you even know what those terms mean? A little self-awareness, little girl.
You've already demonstrated that your ideal of Judaism is defined by what's in vogue on the woke street, so I guess I shouldn't be too upset. Rabbi Miller would not be too hot in San Francisco or SoHo.
He was documented as saying slavery wasn’t so bad for African Americans…racist.
They don't think misogyny is bad.
They will say something like " women are happier and more fulfilled in their Torah assigned roles" "separate but equal"
Trying to figure out your position. Let's say someone doesn't like chareidim, because he/she/him/his/theirs/them thinks that chareidim are all misogynists/racists. Does that make he/she/him/his/theirs/them a racist? (This is all hypothetical, obviously).
You can use the generic masculine, its universal.
No, it's being changed to "them". Consider yourself lucky that you're unaware of what's going on.
Amen and Awomen. (remember that?)
Well, he was anti-Zionist. So at least there's that.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me he had the generic yeshivah world approach to Zionism: Neither for it nor against it.
Oh, he was VERY against it. Far more than mainstream Yeshivish. Satmar loved him for that and he used to regularly say shmuessen to a Satmar audience in Yiddish.
Like most litvish anti-zionists, his opposition was not a theological one, but spent a few years around the worst zionists, and learnt from there all their anti-torah views. Brisk was a hub of zionism, and so was munkacz. Hence the frum opposition from those towns.
I defer to your knowledge.
"and he used to regularly say shmuessen to a Satmar audience in Yiddish."
I don't think that's true.
No he was very similar to Satmar.
You say misogyny like it was a bad thing.
Misogyny is a bad thing. If you don't believe that, you believe in a bad thing. Your parents are probably ashamed of you
Oh, so you actually believe it, it wasn't just an inference.
So when a boat is about to capsize, and there is one life jacket, who gets it - the man or the woman? What do you think? What does the Torah say? What happens when they don't coincide?
... believe in misogyny? Yeah, I do believe it. I experience it from people all the time. Sadly mostly from yeshiva guys. And the concept that a man can be misogynistic does not preclude the idea that others are not. Avigdor Miller is a misogynist. You are probably a misogynist, others are not.
Make it your campaign to put the miss back into Krismiss. A worthy life's goal.
But the belief I was referring to was that misogyny is a bad thing. Sorry, but genders are different, and nothing will change that. The attempts to make genders equal are cruel to both of us.
Here's the thing.
There were 12 Maccabbees, against tens of thousands of Yevanim. What's your rationalist explanation of their physical strength that got them to win the war?
Happy pretzeling.
12? Where did you get that from? They had hundreds from the start at least.
By the way, a bunch of fanatic, primitive goatherds in Afghanistan were able to overpower first one world power, the USSR (granted, with US aid, but hey, the Maccabees had Greek and Roman and Egyptian and Persian support- pretty much every world power at the time) and then the remaining world power, the US. All in less time, total, than it took the Maccabees to beat the Seleucids. The mujahedeen started fighting the Russians in 1979 and beat them in 1989. The US, from 2001 to 2021. That's 30 years of fighting and 42 from start to finish, both times against modern armed forces with air forces. It took the Maccabees 57 years to win independence. History is fun!
Do you seriously not know the source of the number 12?
Yet you consider yourself an expert.
Wow!
Enlighten me. There were five brothers and one father. That's six.
Also note the source for רש"י is בראשית רבה:
בָּאוּ מְרֻבִּים וְנָפְלוּ בְּיַד מוּעָטִין, בְּאֵיזוֹ זְכוּת, מִבִּרְכָתוֹ שֶׁל משֶׁה, שֶׁאָמַר (דברים לג, יא): מְחַץ מָתְנַיִם קָמָיו. בְּיַד מִי מַלְכוּת יָוָן נוֹפֶלֶת, בְּיַד בְּנֵי חַשְׁמוֹנָאי שֶׁהֵם מִשֶּׁל לֵוִי.
and the תנחומא:
אֵלּוּ מְרֻבִּין, וְאֵלּוּ מְעוּטִין. מֹשֶׁה רָאָה אוֹתָן וּבֵרֲכָן, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: בָּרֵךְ ה' חֵילוֹ
Neither of the two sources mentions a specific number.
But see the מהר"ל on אבות ו:ז:
ואף בימי חשמונאים שגאלם מידי יון היה נס נראה דהיינו בנרות כדי שידעו כי הש"י היה מגביר אותם על היונים ולא יאמרו כחם ועוצם ידם עשתה זאת
The implication is that the miracle of the military victory was not so obvious as to allow the misconception of כוחי ועוצם ידי, which would be farfetched if we assume a literal 13 (including אלעזר) vs. tens of thousands.
To be fair, that could have been when Mattisyahu originally stood up, or something else being dependent on that number. Sefer Maccabim gives like a 1-6 ratio. We are not the first generation to notice this so I am sure this is spoken about.
I don't think anyone thinks it was literally only 12 Maccabees against the entire Syrian-Greek army. (That kind of would have made the news at the time, don't you think?) They were just the leaders of the revolt. It was still a miracle that they won though.
So 'nobody thinks' passes for logic in your crowd, does it?
This story was a miracle. As contemporary sources tell us. You are living in a world that doesn't accept the idea of miracles. Known as anachronistic in some circles.
I googled the news of that day and I didn't find it. Maybe that should be a problem.
Yes, it was a miracle, but it wasn't 12 vs. 10,000. Hashem didn't turn them into Marvel superheroes. What source do you have that only those 12 Maccabees fought the Greeks, and no one else?
If you would spend more time thinking and educating yourself, and less time coming up with silly nicknames, maybe you would end up knowing something.
If it was a miracle, why couldn't it be 12?
You are sure that it wasn't 12, ignoring the source material. And no, if you don't know Chumash Rashi, pointing out the Mar'eh Makom is useless.
In today's egalitarian society, ignorance and knowledge are equal. So much so that even the Weavers of the world consider their gas releases to be 'opinions'.
Reb Zundel, I assume you are merely playing with Sir Weaver. A sage and scholar of your stature must surely concede that it is possible to reconcile that statement of Rashi with the Book of Maccabees, which, despite it's unknown authorship, is considered by historians, even of the "yeshivish" persuasion, to be generally reliable. To claim that the Book of Maccabees is a complete forgery, or is filled with utter lies, seems to be unnecessary, wouldn't you agree?
You sure know how to get me to agree with you. Just continue with the flattery. 'Sage and scholar' is only the beginning.
Of course it is possible to reconcile that statement of Rashi with the Book of Maccabees. I was taking umbrage with the attitude. In his world, Maccabees is absolute gospel truth, and Rashi is just some other author. Besides the zilzul hatorah in that attitude, it is also quite stupid and evidence of an uneducated mind.
Did you bother to learn Chumash Rashi? Because last time I checked, that is an obligation on every Jew. Whereas the Book of Maccabees may or may not be included in the Halacha in Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 307:17
Book of Maccabees and Josephus are the only sources we have for the details of the Channuka story. There actually multiple versions of what sparked the revolt, not that really makes a difference.
They are the only sources 'you' have for the details.
I b"h have others too.
ברוך אלקינו שבראנו לכבודו והבדילנו מן התועים ונתן לנו תורת אמת
What other source do you have?
Chazal. Gemara.
That is how we are נבדל מן התועים, who have to rely on anonymous sources. The תועים believe anything with the zeal of a monk, as long as it is not Chazal or Torah.
Learning on Shabbat? Please.
על הניסים does have והדליקו נרות בחצרות קדשך. Why is it supposed to be important to mention?
Silly! That was made up by revisionist Talmudic sages. The same with zeidim b'yad oskei toratecha. They changed the story of Hannukah from being about our mighty military might to making it into a religious victory, much like the Haredim still do today.
One can be a mighty warrior and עוסק בתורה. There are many soldiers in Tsahal who are.
Not disagreeing with that.
So what are you trying to say?
You can't try to use Al hanissim as a proof. Al hanissim is all about making Hanukkah into a religious miracle, and it was written by the Sages, who were Haredi.
the sages where Haredi???????????????
My point is there is clearly an allusion to the oil miracle in Al Hanisim, contrary to Rabbi Slifkin's assertion. I don't see how your comments are relevant on this issue.
That's right ! The עוסקי תורתך.slso fought in the army. Not like you slouchers.
.Remember Rabbi Akiva the armor bearer of Bar Kochva!?
Why don't you quote the Chafetz Chaim that the Yeshivos should have revolted against the communists. He meant it physically.
In pshat, that's not talking about the menorah, which was in the heichal not the hatzer.
בחצרות קדש means Jerusalem:
כִּ֤י מְאַסְפָיו֙ יֹאכְלֻ֔הוּ וְהִֽלְל֖וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֑ה וּמְקַבְּצָ֥יו יִשְׁתֻּ֖הוּ בְּחַצְר֥וֹת קׇדְשִֽׁי (Isaiah 62,9).
The Gemara in Chagiga says the pasuk מי ביקש זאת מידכם רמוס חצרי is the har habayis. It's used in many ways and does not mean one thing.
Exactly. It doesn't have to mean the 'azarah, and is here used as a poetic synonymous to the Beis Hamikdash
Well in that case there is no proof the Chashmonaim lit the menora out of the Azara. It is also mashma in the Rambam that one can light the menora in the Azara but not further out, so you'll need proof to say they lit it in Yerushalayim.
That's exactly my point. They lit it in the heichal, and בחצרות קדשך is here used not as a specific place but as a poetic name for the Beis Hamikdash in Jerusalem
In pshat that is also talking about the azarah. And it's certainly not talking about the Temple building because drinking wine is forbidden there.
In any case it would be strange for Al Hanisim to use a rare circumlocution for the city of Jerusalem to refer to something that happens in the Temple building.
Exactly. It means Jerusalem, not the Azarah where it is forbidden to drink wine.
It is not strange to not use the same language many times over, it is called poetry. Hence לדביר ביתך, את היכלך, את מקדשך, בחצרות קדשך.
It's permitted in the ezrat nashim, and according to many it's permitted even in the ezrat yisrael as long as one did not do avodah.
And again, it would be a strange and misleading "poetic language".
Ah, so the possuk is saying wine should be drunk in the ezras noshim, because 'after all there is no explicit prohibition'?
Isn't this also 'misleading'?
.אֶֽבֶן שְׁתִיָּֽה. בֵּֽית הַבְּחִירָֽה. גֹּֽרֶן אׇרְנָֽן. דְּבִֽיר הַמֻּצְנָֽע. הַֽר הַמּֽוֹרִיָּֽה. וְהַֽר יֵֽרָאֶֽה. זְבֻֽל תִּפְאַרְתֶּֽךָ. חָנָֽה דָוִֽד. טֽוֹב הַלְּבָנֽוֹן. יְפֵֽה נֽוֹף מְשֽׂוֹשׂ כׇּל־הָאָֽרֶץ. כְּלִֽילַת יֹֽפִי. לִינַֽת הַצֶּֽדֶק. מָכֽוֹן לְשִׁבְתֶּֽךָ. נָוֶֽה שַֽׁאֲנָֽן. סֻכַּֽת שָׁלֵֽם. עֲלִיַּֽת שְׁבָטִֽים. פִּנַּֽת יִקְרַֽת. צִיּֽוֹן הַֽמְצֻיֶּֽנֶת. קֹֽדֶשׁ הַקֳּדָשִֽׁים. רָצֽוּף אַֽהֲבָֽה. שְׁכִינַֽת כְּבוֹדֶֽךָ. תֵּֽל תַּלְפִּיּֽוֹת.
That was the dedication. Nu? Had there been a miracle, it would have mentioned it, no?
No, Al Hanisim is a thanksgiving tefilah about the victory. Just like there is no mention in Al Hanisim of the many sacrifices they offered to rededicate the Bais Hamikdash which the author of Book of Maccabees writes about.
That is not the purpose of the prayer. The original version, in Rambam, Rokeiach and all rishonim concludes with כשם שעשית עמהן פלא ונסים כך עשה עמנו נסים וגבורות בעת ובעונה הזאת, so the emphasis is on the salvation.
I thank Hashem that I managed not to get suck(er)ed into the hareidi yeshivisheh world!
Its not as bad as R Slifkin makes it out to be , actually not at all what he makes it out to be.