There are many comments here speaking with such high ground about how the leftists just want to destroy the country and overthrow the government at any cost etc etc. I just spent the day in tel Aviv speaking to many of these protestors, and I can assure you, there is nothing further from the truth. These people feel the pain of the hostages, soldiers, and their families, and simply don't trust that the government is doing what they can to save/protect them. Go to a hafgana for five minutes and listen to the emotion in their voices, and then come back and tell me that it's a leftist 'religous' doctrine that they're looking to aid Israel's enemies and fight against the government at all costs. It's an abhorrent lie.
I get why people may disagree with their position and feel that their emotional response to the plight of those suffering doesn't sufficiently address the broader security concerns facing Israel, but this canard about hating the country is a chareidi or right wing echo chamber response. Go to their hafganot and count the Israeli flags or the statements of pride in Jewish identity, and compare it with the burning of flags in meah shearim and the antisemitic epithets thrown around by anti draft demonstrations.
I focus on objective actions not subjective sentiment. The fact is that they cause incredible damage to the State of Israel. When you actually love something you don't unintentionally destroy it. If someone's loved one was hit by a car they wouldn't be yelling and screaming at the driver and asking for his license while the poor victim was laying on the floor bleeding out. Their instinct would be to nurture the victim AND try to do anything possible to save them. Much, much later, when the immediate crisis had subsided they'd turn their attention to the driver.
That's an easy way to differentiate between those who really love someone or something and those who just say nice sentiments. Or, in other words, differentiation between true love and what Rabbi Dr. Tewerski refers to, as "fish love". Go to the finest fish restaurants and you'll find people commenting how much they love fish - as the waiter places the gutted dead fish on their plate and they proceed to consume its flesh. They don't actually love fish, obviously. They love themselves. They love the pleasure they get from the fish. Not the fish. Far-Leftists love Israel but only an Israel that gives them pleasure. The one that feeds a specific nationalist pride or one that gives them the freedom to behave however they want. The second they perceived their way of life becoming slightly inconvenienced because of those crazy religious laws, you know, that Jewish stuff, they decided that they're perfectly ok to burn it down. Even worse, they decided that their hatred for Bibi, inexplicable levels of hatred, is more important than the future of the country. Suddenly showing up for military service - according to their claimed value system, the greatest act of loyalty to the country - abandoned because they don't like the duly elected choices of the lawfully acting Prime Minister.
Say what you want about the charedi Jews, even the Holocaust didn't turn them against God. They didn't scream and rant and say, well, who the hell needs this type of God? Instead they had many children and opened tiny yeshivos with no money and put those kids in them. Then they painstakingly, over decades, rebuilt the whole world that was destroyed. Why? Because they know what true love is. They know what loyalty to your love is. Even if it seems like that love has all but abandoned and abused you, they stayed true to it.
I'm sure those protestors all believe they love Israel but their actions tell an entirely different story.
They made open calls for people who ARE in the military NOT to report. You wantbto re-write history to keep supporting your cognitive dissonance. It's really gotten bad. What a shame. Really.
Yes. That was my point. (You knew that, right? Look at you, now pulling out the old strawman technique just to keep the position going. Nice.) The far Left have been undermining Israel for a LONG time but especially since Bibi's election win. They absolutely and undeniably created the atmosphere in which Hamas felt was the best to attack. And, in fact, based on their actions since, Hamas was 100% right. (Proof again, that just fighting doesn't mean you're the savior of your country.) Even before October 7th, though, they've spent years trying to import as many non-Jewish citizens to offset the obvious gains the religious world was having based on birth rate. I'd be far from surprised if those very same people aren't a large part of today's far-Left. They've said it themselves, they'd rather sit with arab parties than charedi ones. So, yes, that's what called fish loving your country.
Actually, they were very disappointed when the Russians turned out to be very un-Left. As might have been predicted about people raised under Communism by anyone who wasn't a die-hard fellow traveler himself.
I have a rule when discussing this with people? Do YOU serve in the army? No? You have no standing to discuss these issues and your opinion is irrelevant.
If you do, then we can talk.
People who refuse to serve and yet have the chutzpah to demand that others should are hypocrites of the highest order. They pay no price for their opinions while others do (including the "far leftists") and therefore shouldn't be allowed to have an impact on policy in any way.
Yes. Uncritical thinking 101. You pass. The irrationalist response is always - I don't need to refute your logical arguments with logic because you're not entitled to an opinion because [fill in some irrelevant emotional, often tribalistic, reason].
I think you're on the wrong blog board. You need to hang put in the one-sided I cancel everyone I don't agree with blog. I'll continue to have an opinion. I'll continue to share my opinion.
And while it is entirely irrelevant, I DO have close friends and family in the army - people I very much care about. I, however, am well past the years that I can contribute on that front. If ch"v we ever get to the point that we need untrained seniors though, I'd be there, for sure.
You're entitled to have an opinion. Your opinion carries less weight seeing as you will not bear the consequences of that opinion while the supposed "far leftists" protesting will.
Another point about army service, you clearly haven't met any of these people you have such vicious hatred for. If you would serve, you would meet them and you would have a clue about their actual stances.
Oh, it's not me that has such vicious hatred for them. I do despise their actions. On the other hand you sound quite angry and irrational. Your logic is that people who serve in the army are entitled to do objectively destructive actions to the State because they've served. On the other hand, those that haven't, their opinions should be given "less weight" even if they're correct or logical, for no other reason than there source. In your world, if someone who didn't serve approaches the Defense Minister with a brilliant idea of how to win the war, he should be given "less weight" because he didn't serve. Yup, that's the emotional reaction we're calling out. If you disagree with my logic, please feel free to respond with your response. However, the idea of how much weight to give my thoughts based on a litmus test that has nothing to do with the veracity of the points made is immature and common from irrational actors. Otherwise, it's your opinions that should be given "less weight" because they're based on nothing but your feelings.
As an aside, shame on you for suggesting that I wouldn't bear the consequences of the war when I specifically said I have family and friends in the army. So, in your opinion, anyone older than a certain age who has kids in the army is not "bearing the consequences"?
I highly suggest you learn how to engage critical thinking skills. I'm sure you're a good person but your life will be infinitely better if you didn't hang your opinions and choices on your feelings.
- I read your comments on this blog before responding to you. It sounds like you seriously hate 'leftists' and basically people with different opinions to you who are apparently all far leftist's, despite such people being an endangered species in this country. I respond to you as such. If you don't want to viewed that way then you might want to be more careful with the language you use.
- Am I angry? For sure. Irrational? I don't think so.
- My logic is not that people who serve in the army are entitled to destroy the state. I view their actions very differently than you, as do most people I know. This makes your claim that their actions are objectively bad nonsensical.
- On this blog, you represent a group of people who refuse to serve their country, in fact their ideology despises the country, while at the same time, they have consistently formed part of its rulership for most of my life. The word evil springs to mind but I am very rationalist and will refrain from expressing my emotions about them. I view the continued rule of these people, and their domination of public discourse, as a central long-term cause of the neglect of the country that led to 7 October. This must be stopped. A good way to start is to call out the hypocrisy of their defenders.
I took a look at the blog you posted, I stopped at his characterization of Datim Leumim who disagree with him as 'hard left.' This is so preposterous on the face of it that this guy is clearly not worth engaging with. From my experience, I suspect he would be better characterized as חרד"ל. I also really didn't like his defeatism and bad attitude about the IDF. It is ironic that he acts the way he paints the 'hard left' as acting.
Regarding Slifkin serving in the army. He came to the country when he was already too old to serve but his kids serve and he supports serving.
You on the other hand are representing a sector that point blank refuses to be נושא בעול under any circumstances.
From a Jewish perspective I have no interest in what charedim have to say, the same way I have no interest in what אחיטופל or Shabtai Tzvi or the Judenraat.
הפורש מדרכי ציבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללם לא נכנס בצרתם וכו' אין לו חלק לעולם הבא. דברי הרמב"ם כאן הם יסוד ועיקר גדול, הגע בעצמך דמביא שמדובר ביהודי שאינו עובר עבירות, רק נבדל מעם ישראל שאינו עושה מצות בכללם, ולא נכנס בצרתם ולא מתענה בתעניתם, אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מעמי הארץ, ודינו כמינים ואפיקורסים שאין להם חלק לעולם הבא
From a political perspective, having charedim calls others hard left is actually comical. Charedim are the very epitome of the hard left. They are against the state of Israel, for high benefits and high taxes and for identity politics. Charedi parties and Arab parties cooperate happily to pass laws pushing a leftist agenda against the best interests of the state because neither care about the state.
Interestingly, charedi parties are actually in favour of the hostage deal. Not for the first time I notice many charedim are confused about what is supposed to be their own ideology.
Regarding what the dati leumi sector actually thinks about charedim refusing to serve here is a link to major rishon
I'm sure they seem perfectly reasonable in the light of day when they're sitting around, and I'm sure that when you melt into the crowd and join in it seems very exhilarating. Look at it from the outside and you may get a different view.
It could be, and I'm not taking a stance on that. I'm just disagreeing with the idea being presented by some here that they are out against the Jewish people. (And I do see at least some merit in some of their complaints against the current government and military leadership.)
There is no indication anywhere in the Torah that learning Torah is a substitute for fighting. None whatsoever. As for the swords, they used them to kill the egel worshippers.
“There were four kings, what this one demanded that one did not demand, and these are: David, Asa, Yehoshafat, and Hezekiah. David said: “I will pursue my enemies and overtake them…” (Psalms 18:38). The Holy One blessed be He said to him: ‘I will do so.’ That is what is written: “David smote them from twilight until the evening of their next day” (I Samuel 30:17). What is “of their next day”? Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi said: For two nights and one day. The Holy One blessed be He would illuminate for him with comets and lightning, as we learned there: Over comets, over earthquakes, and over lightning. That is what is written: “For you will illuminate my lamp…” (Psalms 18:29).
Asa arose and said: ‘I do not have the power to kill them, but I will pursue them and You do [the killing].’ He said to him: ‘I will do so,’ as it is stated: “Asa…pursued them…as they were broken before the Lord and before His camp; they carried a great many spoils” (II Chronicles 14:12). “Before Asa” is not written here, but rather, “before the Lord and before His camp.”
Yehoshafat arose and said: ‘I have the power neither to kill nor to pursue; rather, I will recite song and You do so.’ The Holy One blessed be He said to him: ‘I will do so,’ as it is stated: “At the time that they began with song and praise, [the Lord set ambushes against the children of Amon, Moav, and the highlands of Se'ir]” (II Chronicles 20:22).
Hezekiah arose and said: ‘I have the power neither to kill, nor to pursue, nor to recite song; rather I will sleep in my bed and You do so.’ The Holy One blessed be He said to him: ‘I will do so,’ as it is stated: “It was on that night that an angel of the Lord went out and smote in the camp of the Assyrians”
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"As for the swords, they used them to kill the egel worshippers."
Dr Slifkin made a claim about sources. I provided a source which contradicts that. Please try to follow the conversation rather than simply spouting dumb talking points.
I pray for your mind Nathan. You're in such a broken state that your strength of rationalism has all but disappeared, certainly when it comes to Judaism and Israel.
I struggle with my thoughts about you. Because I didn't agree with the bans on your books and felt the charedi rabbis were overreacting. I believe they make mistakes many times. They are human, of course. We don't live in a time of prophecy.
However, the way you go on and on and you demonstrate endless understanding of the far Left, despicable people that not only could care less about our heritage and the Torah but actually, because of their lack of spiritual refinement, also have shown that they care less about Israel! By any objective measure, long before October 7th, those of us who are rational, saw actions from their camp never seen before in modern day Israel. Demonization of everyone they disagree with. Going directly to other countries, both ally and enemy of Israel, and trying to turn them against, supposedly Bibi, but we all know, actually the religious, because they see the writing on the wall and don't want a religious state. Asking soldiers to not report, etc... They were and are the clearest danger to the state of Israel. They literally do the work of Hamas. And all because they want to take down this government "at any cost" (a very Leftist religious doctrine). So, the fact that you see the Chareidim as the imminent danger, and the camp that's engaged directly in causing harm to Israel as "just another approach" is astonishingly blind. So, circling back, maybe the Rabbis who banned your work didn't get it wrong after all. Perhaps they saw in your writing a rationalism but with a slanted view against Torah and those who have dedicated everything for thousands of years to keep Torah so that there still exists a Torah and Jews to occupy Israel. Maybe rhey were more perceptive than I was.
Or, perhaps, this wasn't the case and their actions possibly started this prejudice that is now evolving im to a full fledged irrational view of the world. In other words, I'm struggling with the cause/effect chicken/egg question. I'll conclude with what I began, I pray for your mind. I hope you can come back to what used to be a rationalist Jewish mind instead of wherever it is now, which is an irrational obsessive hostility which has you focusing all your energy on a group that's not as dangerous as you make them out to be, ignoring those that represent a true national danger and, in general, adding constant flames to the hatred machine, which, is just plain dumb under all circumstances.
Stop struggling - it is not good for your heart. Your just a charedi apologist and defend them with a few beautiful words, don't struggle, simply just know your place!
Let me try and see if I can make a dent and correct you -
It was not TORAH that kept us all these many generations, most generations there was very little learning and almost no Yeshivas. If there were 50 people learning all day in the entire Europe that was a good generation. It was MITZVAHS that kept us, Shabbos, Tiffilin, Kosher, Tzdukah. etc. that we kept and that is why we are here. You try to move that to "Learning Torah all day", which is just a smoke screen to sit and enjoy life, come home to your families each night and let others do the hard work.
"While it might seem that those protesting the government and those supporting the government are very far apart and in a non-achdus state, that’s a superficial difference. Underneath, most of the people on both sides are deeply concerned about Israel’s present and future; they just have different ideas about the best way to move forward."
By this logic, Yigal Amir and Yitzchak Rabin were both engaged in achdus too. They just had a difference of opinion whether Oslo would bring peace or get people blown up in suicide bombings. And Rabin achdus-ed people to death on the Altalena.
Essentially, you're employing a slippery slope argument by citing extreme historical examples (Amir and Rabin, Altalena), implying that disagreement could lead to acts of violence. While it's true that in the past 75+ years, there have been virtually no instances of Charedim engaging in significant large-scale violence, this is because they are isolated and pacifist, similar to the Amish in the US, who don't participate in national defense, and have no weapons. Is that really the model you prefer? Because an Israel based on that approach wouldn't last long
I'm not making a slippery slope argument at all. My point is that Dr Slifkin's *own* definition already necessitates that conclusion. If anything, I'm making a reductio ad absurdum argument. And there's nothing fallacious about pointing out the absurdity of someone else's position.
"Is that really the model you prefer? Because an Israel based on that approach wouldn't last long"
"he was very proud of the achdus displayed by his group dancing with everyone else. He contrasted them to the anti-government protestors in Tel Aviv who foment hatred and divisiveness. But personally, I think that he had it exactly backwards.
While it might seem that those protesting the government and those supporting the government are very far apart and in a non-achdus state, that’s a superficial difference. Underneath, most of the people on both sides are deeply concerned about Israel’s present and future; they just have different ideas about the best way to move forward. "
It's impossible to make a blanket statement concerning the attitude of the protesters, as it's doubtful they are of one mind. What you and your Charedi acquaintance have failed to realize is the distinction between acts of אחדות and declarations of אחדות. You defend the empty counterproductive demonstrations because they "are deeply concerned" and is not a "smokescreen". Not so. Whatever useful activities and genuine patriotic acts the demonstrators engage in when they are off the streets have no bearing on the fact that the demonstrations do not contribute to אחדות.
You are also incorrect when you dismiss Charedi declarations of אחדות as a smokescreen. You have repeatedly reported on extreme Charedi statements that negate any contribution made by the soldiers, or even חסד organizations who assist the soldiers. A great part of the Charedi world don't know how to handle the situation, and is not quite ready to contribute in a real manner beyond slogans and signalling. In contrast to the utter negative (and anti-traditional) attitude that is frequent in the Charedi community, it's progress. For the protestors, it's not progress- it's vanity and stagnation.
My father, Rav Yaacov Haber, often teaches that the idea of Achdus — uniformity — is misguided. Why should we all strive to be the same? What truly matters is Yachdus: embracing our differences, valuing one another as we are, and, through this acceptance, coming together to form a stronger, more unified whole.
Your post calls for Achdus, but I believe what we truly need is Yachdus — a unity that honors our differences rather than attempts to erase them.
I’m not here to defend or criticize Charedim. What matters is recognizing Charedim as people who are different from us — whether they are in a restaurant, on vacation, or doing anything that some might feel they shouldn't because they aren’t in the army. We must accept them for who they are, just as they accept those who are not Charedim.
True unity, Yachdus, occurs when we genuinely accept one another at a deep, heartfelt level. In this light, the call for Achdus might be somewhat misguided and perhaps even irrelevant to the broader conversation.
I think it's important to approach this discussion with a level-headed and mature perspective, without letting emotional bias cloud our judgment, however valid that may be. Mainstream Charedim are not inherently more harmful than any other group. It’s crucial to recognize the diversity within the community rather than making sweeping generalizations.
We can all agree that groups like Neturei Karta are outliers, not representative of the broader Charedi population. Let's focus on fostering understanding and respectful dialogue, rather than resorting to divisive rhetoric.
Looks like a new tactic by Charedim or defenders of Charedim - Kum By Yah lets all be friends. Get together have achdus,, kiss and love each other.
However, the others just sat shiva for a son killed in war , while you draft dodgers were sitting in restaurants eating fatty meats, and all the while keep asking for achdus. Pull the other foot it has bells.
"And the first step is acknowledging what achdus actually means"
The root of the word "achdus" can be "echad" or "ichud", .i.e. "one" or "togetherness". Chareidim dancing with secular Jews shows at the end of the day we are "one people" and can live "together". Seems like a pretty good example of "achdus".
Chareidim davening and learning extra as a merit for their DL/secular brethren on the battlefield show we are "one people" and we care about each other.
Your idea of "sharing in the national burden" has nothing to do with "achdus" and everything to do with "think and be like me or I'll hate you" i.e. pirud.
Dancing with people as a replacement for actually helping them is replacing real care with superficial care that makes them feel okay with avoiding the real care.
It means that they have stepped away from the more extreme sentiments in the Charedi world.
The same can't be said about the protesters who while on the streets are doing nothing useful. And the morons at the Histadrut- blowing up the economy and inadvertently rewarding the Hamas Nazis? Idiots- not אחדות!
..and posting some posts on social media as a replacement for actually serving in the IDF is replacing real care with superficial care that makes you feel okay with avoiding the real care.
You see what I mean? Everyone has their own ideas how they believe they are helping, and you have no right to negate anyone who believes different than you.
Aha, so you never fought in the army, and you sit behind a computer bashing Chareidim, and alternatively running a (profitable) zoo, but your kids go to the army, so you feel like you have contributed to the war. An objective observer would wonder where the contribution is, but that's what you believe, and I'm fine with that. Chareidim believe their contribution comes in the way of davening and learning as a source of merit, even if they are not actively in combat. You know what? I'm fine with that too. Neither I nor you have a right to question someone's belief.
Huh? I feel that I failed to contribute as a young man, and now for various reasons I cannot serve in the IDF, but I contribute in other ways that are universally regarded as beneficial. I have every right to challenge the claim of charedim that they are helping, and to show that it has no basis in Judaism, morality, or their actions in other areas.
But no one can challenge your claim that you are helping? That sounds very fair.
As for your claim about basis in Judaism, morality, etc. it would at least have the appearance of honesty if you admitted it's your idea of Judaism and morality. Obviously, the Rabbanim in the Chareidi community think differently.
Reciting a few prayers while refusing to share in the actual hard work and sacrifice, and consequently making everyone else have to sacrifice even more, does not demonstrate care.
Yes. I think there will be. The prospect of it nauseates me. Kind of like foreseeing what was likely to happen after the Oslo accords, or the withdrawal from Gaza. Horror.
Personally? Aside from writing my opinions as frankly and as tactfully as I can in certain forums (using my real name), I don't bring up the subject with the haredim in my life and in my extended family, and I strive to treat everyone with respect. I make a point of publicizing what I see as positive behavior on this matter regarding haredim I know or encounter.
I try to avoid responding to obvious trolls here, unless I believe I can set the record straight for serious commentators and lurkers. In particular, for the meantime, I skip over comments by people like Fluffy (who keeps changing his pseudonym), because he's not worth bothering with.
You misunderstand. I'm not exaggerating, nor am I advocating force or violence. But in all honesty, I think it's increasingly likely that there's going to be violence against individual haredim in the public sphere as an emotional backlash against their mass refusal to serve in this war. And of course, mobs and gangs are rarely careful with how they dispense "justice", that is their nature.
This isn't a criticism, it's a social observation. And yes, avoidance of personal and public shame and social consequences has always been one of many reasons reluctant men in various societies have enlisted, or at the very least, not resisted the draft. You can ratchet on and on about "achdus", but you will never be able to erase this shame and sense of deep resentment from those who have served and their families. It will create higher barriers between many Jews and what they perceive as "Torah".
Which part of the word Achdus means sacrifice?! Do you really believe if one doesn't serve in the army, it means he has no sense of achdus? If someone gives a large donation to the IDF, Hatzalah, Zaka, etc. or anything which helps the war effort, he/she has no achdus?! What is wrong with you?
If he is incapable of being in the army, these are excellent substitutes. But they are not a replacement for a community that should be drafting. It's disturbing that you don't grasp that.
His son will be in a regular unit. That is sacrifice. His daughter put her life on hold for the army. That’s sacrifice. You haven’t sacrificed anything.
Having children in active service is sacrifice. These are his kids, he raised them and is actively supporting their needs. This is a meaningful sacrifice.
I find this discussion very strange. Understanding what Achdut really means should not be such an esoteric question. We know that infighting destroys the fabric of the nation and emboldens our enemies, regardless of the good intentions of those involved. The fact that people are unable to talk peacefully to, or about, each other is clearly a problem of Achdut that destroys our nation. The question is how do we get out of the mess we are in when we each of us feels so strongly that we are in the right and others are the cause of the problem.
My humble suggestion is that secret sauce of Achdut is the ability to say we are all brothers and sisters and that we love and care about each other, regardless of what we think of their opinions and lifestyles. Any criticism can be deemed legitimate if it can be said in the same breath as "They are my brothers and I care about them". If not, then I don't think one is being intellectually honest in their claims to desire Achdut. They are redefining Achdut to justify them doing what they want to do.
Trying to achieve so-called Achdut by seeking the submission of one's opponents will lead to churban r"l.
Well, the protesters are pretty open about their belief that they, and only they, care about the hostages.
And this very host has stated that Bibi doesn't, simply because he (understandably, as he has a country to run) has certain priorities, priorities unrecognized by either protesters or host.
They don’t care only about the hostages. They care about their families, their friends. Their communities. In fact they care about all of us and what this choice of his does to the moral fiber of our nation
Natan, you have decided on a very rigid definition of what achdus is and you have decided that anything outside your definition does not count as achdus.
Achdus comes in many forms and layers. Even a superficial form of achdus is considered achdus, even if it's not the highest form that you would hope for.
I see that you get triggered every time someone uses the achdus word when it involves chareidim. I get why, it's frustrating and you want to make sure it's clear to everyone that chareidim are on the outside and you are concerned that if people accept this as achdus, then they may G-d forbid accept chareidim as is. You need to be sure everyone realizes how bad chareidim really are.
But you shouldn't deny that there can be a level of achdus even without chareidim serving in the army. You can have an opinion on what IDEAL achdus is, but you don't have ownership of the term to declare that anything less is not called achdus at all.
Indeed. It's odd that some people assume your disputes with the haredi derech are an emotional response to the book bans. Sending kids, or husbands, to Tzahal has to be at least significant.
Okay, so here's the negation: Dancing with people or davening for them as a replacement for actually helping them is replacing real care with superficial care that makes them feel okay with avoiding the real care.
Imagine if you really, really needed help with something and I was perfectly capable of helping you but instead reassured you that I'm davening for you instead.
Now, instead of saying he is perfectly capable of helping (in the exact way you want), he tells you that he is following the people he trusts who advise that it is harmful for him to help you in that way.
Despite that, he is praying for you, donating money to your cause and cooking meals for you.
Make no mistake, lots of people at the protests are having a good time too. I won't say they want to destroy the country- only a few anarchists do, but alas they have a big voice- and I won't say they don't have the best interests of the country (as they see it, of course) at heart- but it's definitely a "thing" for them, and one that's risking a lot more lives, especially of the hostages (not of course that they intend that), than having a good time at Pitmaster- a place that's been on my list for a while- does. Not to mention, of course, inconveniencing or worse the lives of a lot of people who may or may not agree with their actions.
(Others in the media have already tried the trick of asking protest organizers if they would be happy or sad if the IDF freed all the hostages tomorrow. The responses are telling.)
So what, then, makes them different from charedim at a restaurant? Well, the latter aren't blocking the streets (or at least not currently- charedim block the streets plenty), and of course the latter aren't serving in the IDF. But again let's be honest: Lots of those at the protests- probably an overwhelming majority- aren't *currently* serving at all. (Almost all of those over whom the huge fuss about "refusal" was made last year weren't serving either.) They *did* serve in the past, and God bless them, and some of them are off-and-on serving now, and God bless them too, but let's not let the masses off the hook here either just to make a point, please.
Yeah we’re having a great time. Holding pictures of hostages listening to their friends and families speak about their love for them and the pain they and we feel for their suffering. The beatings. The torture. The rapes. Yeah we’re having a blast on Azza in front of bibi’s home.
First, I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not in front of Bibi's home. Bibi lives at 35 Azza, and no protesters are allowed within a hundred meters or more of that place. (The official prime minister's residence has been empty for years.) And of course on weekends he's in Caesaria.
Do you know whose home you *have* been in front of all this time? Mine. I've seen you. I know you. So let me say this:
Believe it or not, there are people in Israel who care about the hostages apart from you people screaming and banging drums. All of us do. Even Bibi does. We may even care about them *more* than you, as we're not screaming in favor of surrender to Hamas. And because we somehow manage to care without joining in mobs that, let's be honest, have little to nothing to do with the hostages and have everything to do with a Bibi hatred (which, in fact, some of us share) that's been around since 1995. And because we manage to care without making life hell for ordinary people trying to live their lives. (My bus in Tel Aviv today had to drop me off on the side of a highway and I had to run for my train because people who care about the hostages SO MUCH just HAD to block Rechov Begin.) Not enjoy it? Maybe you can't see it from the middle of a mob getting hopped up on adrenaline and self-righteousness and not a little pot, but oh yeah, people enjoy it. The ones who beat me and sent me to the hospital really seemed to be enjoying themselves. I hope you weren't one of them.
Our kids didn't sleep for five years. So we moved a short distance away, and you followed us. Thanks. I hope it's worth it.
So go and move. I’m just down the street also at Azza Berlin and Herzog. I see hear and can smell the skunk water too.
And Bibi DOES stay there occasionally and would even more if not for the protests. Before them you could see his car entering most nights.
Maybe ask him to sell so he has no connection to the neighborhood he’s polluting. I’m sure he could get a great price. By the way no one is I favor of surrender. We just want the hostages to be relieved from their hell. And don’t you say if it wasn’t a close friend or relative you wouldn’t do exactly what they are trying to move heaven and earth to get them home.
Oh, the skunk water is the problem? Not setting the street on fire? Not all the noise? Bibi is "polluting"? Oh, "go move"? (Why don't *you* move?) Aren't you pleasant. I know your type, I've dealt with your type and probably with you. You don't commute, do you? Don't have to get kids to school through that, do you? I hope you're not that way around your family and friends.
I know where he stays. Just not around where you're busy screaming.
You see, the thing is, you are *not* a relative. So don't try to pull that on me.
Yes or no: Do people who not show up at these things (who include, yes, families of hostages, and literally 99% of the country) care about the hostages as much as you? Yes or no?
Oy, Reb Nosson, gevalt! My sweetest, sweetest friend, what a picture you’ve shared! Yidden dancing together, mamash like malachim, in such a beautiful achdus, like we’ve never seen. You know, in these tzarikheh tzaytn, it’s a glimpse of the Geulah, a taste of Moshiach’s world where we’re all shtark united in love and joy. But oy, oy vey, Reb Nosson, how can you mix in such a shreklicheh hatred? How can you distort this precious moment with such anger and judgment? You’re sounding, oy, like a self-hating Yid, like a Yid who’s become an anti-Semitic Yid, chas v’shalom! Who do you think you are, my kinderlach? It’s heartbreaking. You should be ashamed, truly ashamed.
But listen to me, Reb Nosson, you’re a Yid, a precious neshama, and I know you’re suffering. Maybe, maybe you’re just missing the boat, not seeing the emes, not feeling the emes. Oy, the Master of the world should have rachmones on you, may He open your eyes to shalom. Don’t you see? The Ribbono Shel Olam gives koach to His people, but sometimes, oy, the klipa—this klipa, it takes that koach and it twists it, it spins it, oy, it turns it into something else entirely. It’s like the klipa, it’s like a veil over your eyes, blinding you from the light, making everything so farblonget.
Ay, you’re gonna tell me now about the Charedim and the supposed draft dodgers, right? But let me tell you something, tataleh. The Chazon Ish made an agreement with Ben Gurion back in the day, and there were plenty of Chassidim who even joined the army. But then, oy, the Tzionim, they changed their part of the deal! Just like Kamala Harris, who flip-flops on everything, and then she blames her opponent for her confusion. That’s exactly what’s happening here! And you, Reb Nosson, you’ve been sucked into the vacuum of the klipa, falling for the lies, mamash trapped in the confusion. Please, please don’t let the klipa take hold.
Maybe, maybe if you read some of my posts, which I share from the heilige Rebbe, Reb Shlomo, you’ll be able to come back, to see the light, to feel the light again. Remember, we are a strong people, so full of ahavas Yisroel, so full of love for one another. You showed that love in this image, tataleh, so why let the klipa poison it? Have the koach to see the koach the Master of the world gave us, to appreciate it, to hold on to it. And then, oy, then we will have so much shalom, shalom everywhere, shalom in our hearts, shalom in our homes, and shalom in the whole velt. Gevalt! Let’s hold on to that vision, and not let anything tear us apart, not the klipa, not the sitra achra, nothing.
Ah, my brother, I’m hearing your heart, and I want to share something with you, deep and real. You know, love and joy, they’re not just fluffy feelings, they’re not just about dancing around. Real love, real joy—oh, it’s the deepest care, the deepest concern, the deepest responsibility we can ever have. When we’re really shtark in that love, we can’t help but carry each other, be there for each other, like the sweetest Torah of being one family. It's not an escape; it’s the most authentic place of connection, where all the walls fall down.
I feel maybe you’re struggling a little, maybe pushing against that. And gevalt, we all get caught sometimes in those places, behind the klipa. But I want you to know, it’s so thin, it’s just a breath away. With a little more love, a little more simcha, you can break through, mamash, and come back to your true self, to the sweetest light waiting for you.
This is the derech of the Baal Shem Tov, the path of the deepest tzaddikim. They knew that even the most far-flung Yiddela, hiding behind the rationalism, the questions, the doubts—they’re just one niggun away from coming home to the Eibishter, who’s holding us all with such love. And I know, brother, there’s so much light in you. We’re all walking together, bringing each other closer, lifting each other higher. So let’s keep moving forward, with love, with joy—and with every step, you’re going to shine even brighter.
The Chazon Ish never made any sort of deal with Ben Gurion, neither did he have any power to. (Ben Gurion didn't either.) They met, talked, parted. And charedim have been lying about that meeting ever since.
The Chazon Ish also died decades before charedim began to be exempted en masse, for reasons that had nothing to do with Israel "changing any deal." Israel "changed the deal" by *giving* them exemptions.
Your arguments, such as they are, would be much more effective if you had actual facts on your side.
Hey brother, let’s be real for a second. What you’re saying? It’s mamash hearsay. Those who know, they know—and they’re not stam sitting around making things up. Some of the people you're dismissing? They were there, they served in the units, they lived it, breathed it. This isn’t just stories for the olam to tell over. We’re talking real history, real people, and real conversations that shaped everything that came after.
Before you start with the accusations about people lying, maybe take a deep breath. Get out of your klipa, read some history, talk to the yiddelach who actually lived through those days. This whole academic way of looking at the world? It’s cold, it’s distant. It keeps you far from the heart of what’s real. And let me tell you, when you’re wrapped up in that mindset, you miss the emes that’s right in front of you.
But it doesn’t have to be that way, you know? There’s a deeper truth out there, a warmth, a reality that’s not just about theories but about people’s lives. So let’s stop making up stories to fit a narrative. The world becomes a brighter place when we stop tearing down and start building up together, with love and with emes, like the derech of our holy Rebbes taught us. Trust me, the moment you let that light in, you’ll see everything clearer.
"Those protesting the government ... are deeply concerned about Israel’s present and future; they just have different ideas about the best way to move forward."
I don't agree with you. They are not just protesting the government; they want the government to surrender to Hamas, which would allow Hamas to rebuild itself and get ready for the next October 7, render all the sacrifices and losses meaningless.
Even if Israel withdraws from Gaza, who said that Hamas will release the hostages? As if Israel is the one who has those hostages and does not want them released. Hamas is the one holding hostages, so maybe those protesters should go to Gaza to protest Hamas?
Simon Furst seems not to have been in the middle of a chanting, screaming, drum-banging, worked-up, potted-up, crowd. Catch anyone in a calm mood and they can seem very rational.
Let me repeat myself: Even if Israel withdraws from Gaza, who said that Hamas will release the hostages?
I am not questioning their belief that withdrawing from Gaza is "the best way to move forward". I would like somebody to explain to me what makes it the best way?
Their best intensions notwithstanding, objectively they are helping Hamas, by giving them hope that under international and domestic pressure Israel will surrender.
They are not IDF-dodgers. While you may disapprove of the law, they are legally exempt from military service. It's similar to how taking advantage of a tax loophole is not the same as tax evasion.
The deferment expired. This is the kind of "arrangement" that can slide by only with a tiny minority, and Israeli haredim are no longer a tiny, low-visibility minority.
Are you an expert in Torah law? You said that someone who hasn’t had medical training should not get involved in medical issues. I say the same thing to you. Are you an expert in Torah law? How many years did you dedicate to learning Torah? Did you learn through Shas and tur shulchan aruch even once?
You just proved that you are a complete ignoramus as to how Halacha works. We don’t pasken from Chumash. The oral law many times reinterprets the plain meaning of the text. For example it says explicitly in the Torah עין תחת עין do we do that?
There are many comments here speaking with such high ground about how the leftists just want to destroy the country and overthrow the government at any cost etc etc. I just spent the day in tel Aviv speaking to many of these protestors, and I can assure you, there is nothing further from the truth. These people feel the pain of the hostages, soldiers, and their families, and simply don't trust that the government is doing what they can to save/protect them. Go to a hafgana for five minutes and listen to the emotion in their voices, and then come back and tell me that it's a leftist 'religous' doctrine that they're looking to aid Israel's enemies and fight against the government at all costs. It's an abhorrent lie.
Thank you. I think that many people prefer to paint them as Israel-haters rather than find out what they're actually about.
I get why people may disagree with their position and feel that their emotional response to the plight of those suffering doesn't sufficiently address the broader security concerns facing Israel, but this canard about hating the country is a chareidi or right wing echo chamber response. Go to their hafganot and count the Israeli flags or the statements of pride in Jewish identity, and compare it with the burning of flags in meah shearim and the antisemitic epithets thrown around by anti draft demonstrations.
"count the Israeli flags" - LOL - they were provided them by the millionaire Bibiphobe organizers of the riots as a PR tool.
I can tell that you haven't actually spoken to any of them.
I focus on objective actions not subjective sentiment. The fact is that they cause incredible damage to the State of Israel. When you actually love something you don't unintentionally destroy it. If someone's loved one was hit by a car they wouldn't be yelling and screaming at the driver and asking for his license while the poor victim was laying on the floor bleeding out. Their instinct would be to nurture the victim AND try to do anything possible to save them. Much, much later, when the immediate crisis had subsided they'd turn their attention to the driver.
That's an easy way to differentiate between those who really love someone or something and those who just say nice sentiments. Or, in other words, differentiation between true love and what Rabbi Dr. Tewerski refers to, as "fish love". Go to the finest fish restaurants and you'll find people commenting how much they love fish - as the waiter places the gutted dead fish on their plate and they proceed to consume its flesh. They don't actually love fish, obviously. They love themselves. They love the pleasure they get from the fish. Not the fish. Far-Leftists love Israel but only an Israel that gives them pleasure. The one that feeds a specific nationalist pride or one that gives them the freedom to behave however they want. The second they perceived their way of life becoming slightly inconvenienced because of those crazy religious laws, you know, that Jewish stuff, they decided that they're perfectly ok to burn it down. Even worse, they decided that their hatred for Bibi, inexplicable levels of hatred, is more important than the future of the country. Suddenly showing up for military service - according to their claimed value system, the greatest act of loyalty to the country - abandoned because they don't like the duly elected choices of the lawfully acting Prime Minister.
Say what you want about the charedi Jews, even the Holocaust didn't turn them against God. They didn't scream and rant and say, well, who the hell needs this type of God? Instead they had many children and opened tiny yeshivos with no money and put those kids in them. Then they painstakingly, over decades, rebuilt the whole world that was destroyed. Why? Because they know what true love is. They know what loyalty to your love is. Even if it seems like that love has all but abandoned and abused you, they stayed true to it.
I'm sure those protestors all believe they love Israel but their actions tell an entirely different story.
Huh? The government protesters DID show up for military service. Unlike the charedim.
They made open calls for people who ARE in the military NOT to report. You wantbto re-write history to keep supporting your cognitive dissonance. It's really gotten bad. What a shame. Really.
Correct, but that was before Oct 7. After Oct 7, they all served. Unlike the charedim.
Yes. That was my point. (You knew that, right? Look at you, now pulling out the old strawman technique just to keep the position going. Nice.) The far Left have been undermining Israel for a LONG time but especially since Bibi's election win. They absolutely and undeniably created the atmosphere in which Hamas felt was the best to attack. And, in fact, based on their actions since, Hamas was 100% right. (Proof again, that just fighting doesn't mean you're the savior of your country.) Even before October 7th, though, they've spent years trying to import as many non-Jewish citizens to offset the obvious gains the religious world was having based on birth rate. I'd be far from surprised if those very same people aren't a large part of today's far-Left. They've said it themselves, they'd rather sit with arab parties than charedi ones. So, yes, that's what called fish loving your country.
Actually, they were very disappointed when the Russians turned out to be very un-Left. As might have been predicted about people raised under Communism by anyone who wasn't a die-hard fellow traveler himself.
Strangely, when charedim come collecting for money and people offer their spiritual skill set, they are disappointed.
I have a rule when discussing this with people? Do YOU serve in the army? No? You have no standing to discuss these issues and your opinion is irrelevant.
If you do, then we can talk.
People who refuse to serve and yet have the chutzpah to demand that others should are hypocrites of the highest order. They pay no price for their opinions while others do (including the "far leftists") and therefore shouldn't be allowed to have an impact on policy in any way.
Yes. Uncritical thinking 101. You pass. The irrationalist response is always - I don't need to refute your logical arguments with logic because you're not entitled to an opinion because [fill in some irrelevant emotional, often tribalistic, reason].
I think you're on the wrong blog board. You need to hang put in the one-sided I cancel everyone I don't agree with blog. I'll continue to have an opinion. I'll continue to share my opinion.
And while it is entirely irrelevant, I DO have close friends and family in the army - people I very much care about. I, however, am well past the years that I can contribute on that front. If ch"v we ever get to the point that we need untrained seniors though, I'd be there, for sure.
You're entitled to have an opinion. Your opinion carries less weight seeing as you will not bear the consequences of that opinion while the supposed "far leftists" protesting will.
Another point about army service, you clearly haven't met any of these people you have such vicious hatred for. If you would serve, you would meet them and you would have a clue about their actual stances.
Oh, it's not me that has such vicious hatred for them. I do despise their actions. On the other hand you sound quite angry and irrational. Your logic is that people who serve in the army are entitled to do objectively destructive actions to the State because they've served. On the other hand, those that haven't, their opinions should be given "less weight" even if they're correct or logical, for no other reason than there source. In your world, if someone who didn't serve approaches the Defense Minister with a brilliant idea of how to win the war, he should be given "less weight" because he didn't serve. Yup, that's the emotional reaction we're calling out. If you disagree with my logic, please feel free to respond with your response. However, the idea of how much weight to give my thoughts based on a litmus test that has nothing to do with the veracity of the points made is immature and common from irrational actors. Otherwise, it's your opinions that should be given "less weight" because they're based on nothing but your feelings.
As an aside, shame on you for suggesting that I wouldn't bear the consequences of the war when I specifically said I have family and friends in the army. So, in your opinion, anyone older than a certain age who has kids in the army is not "bearing the consequences"?
I highly suggest you learn how to engage critical thinking skills. I'm sure you're a good person but your life will be infinitely better if you didn't hang your opinions and choices on your feelings.
- I read your comments on this blog before responding to you. It sounds like you seriously hate 'leftists' and basically people with different opinions to you who are apparently all far leftist's, despite such people being an endangered species in this country. I respond to you as such. If you don't want to viewed that way then you might want to be more careful with the language you use.
- Am I angry? For sure. Irrational? I don't think so.
- My logic is not that people who serve in the army are entitled to destroy the state. I view their actions very differently than you, as do most people I know. This makes your claim that their actions are objectively bad nonsensical.
- On this blog, you represent a group of people who refuse to serve their country, in fact their ideology despises the country, while at the same time, they have consistently formed part of its rulership for most of my life. The word evil springs to mind but I am very rationalist and will refrain from expressing my emotions about them. I view the continued rule of these people, and their domination of public discourse, as a central long-term cause of the neglect of the country that led to 7 October. This must be stopped. A good way to start is to call out the hypocrisy of their defenders.
I took a look at the blog you posted, I stopped at his characterization of Datim Leumim who disagree with him as 'hard left.' This is so preposterous on the face of it that this guy is clearly not worth engaging with. From my experience, I suspect he would be better characterized as חרד"ל. I also really didn't like his defeatism and bad attitude about the IDF. It is ironic that he acts the way he paints the 'hard left' as acting.
Regarding Slifkin serving in the army. He came to the country when he was already too old to serve but his kids serve and he supports serving.
You on the other hand are representing a sector that point blank refuses to be נושא בעול under any circumstances.
From a Jewish perspective I have no interest in what charedim have to say, the same way I have no interest in what אחיטופל or Shabtai Tzvi or the Judenraat.
הפורש מדרכי ציבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללם לא נכנס בצרתם וכו' אין לו חלק לעולם הבא. דברי הרמב"ם כאן הם יסוד ועיקר גדול, הגע בעצמך דמביא שמדובר ביהודי שאינו עובר עבירות, רק נבדל מעם ישראל שאינו עושה מצות בכללם, ולא נכנס בצרתם ולא מתענה בתעניתם, אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מעמי הארץ, ודינו כמינים ואפיקורסים שאין להם חלק לעולם הבא
From a political perspective, having charedim calls others hard left is actually comical. Charedim are the very epitome of the hard left. They are against the state of Israel, for high benefits and high taxes and for identity politics. Charedi parties and Arab parties cooperate happily to pass laws pushing a leftist agenda against the best interests of the state because neither care about the state.
Interestingly, charedi parties are actually in favour of the hostage deal. Not for the first time I notice many charedim are confused about what is supposed to be their own ideology.
Regarding what the dati leumi sector actually thinks about charedim refusing to serve here is a link to major rishon
https://www.makorrishon.co.il/opinion/745883/
Here is a letter publicised in every dati leumi newspaper. The signatures go on for 2 pages btw:
Slifkins family serve in the IDF and he calls for people to serve. You are busy making excuses for their treasonous behaviour.
When people have "emotion in their voices" it's never a good sign as to their rational state of mind.
I'm sure they seem perfectly reasonable in the light of day when they're sitting around, and I'm sure that when you melt into the crowd and join in it seems very exhilarating. Look at it from the outside and you may get a different view.
It could be, and I'm not taking a stance on that. I'm just disagreeing with the idea being presented by some here that they are out against the Jewish people. (And I do see at least some merit in some of their complaints against the current government and military leadership.)
Sorry but when Naturei Karta support people who associate with those who want to murder us then they have crossed the very red line.
Everyone except the Peleg jerusalem is against breaking the law …
It's now against the law to refuse to draft, and almost the entire charedi community is united on that.
There is no indication anywhere in the Torah that learning Torah is a substitute for fighting. None whatsoever. As for the swords, they used them to kill the egel worshippers.
"There is no indication anywhere in the Torah that learning Torah is a substitute for fighting. None whatsoever."
https://www.sefaria.org/Eikhah_Rabbah.4.15?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en
“There were four kings, what this one demanded that one did not demand, and these are: David, Asa, Yehoshafat, and Hezekiah. David said: “I will pursue my enemies and overtake them…” (Psalms 18:38). The Holy One blessed be He said to him: ‘I will do so.’ That is what is written: “David smote them from twilight until the evening of their next day” (I Samuel 30:17). What is “of their next day”? Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi said: For two nights and one day. The Holy One blessed be He would illuminate for him with comets and lightning, as we learned there: Over comets, over earthquakes, and over lightning. That is what is written: “For you will illuminate my lamp…” (Psalms 18:29).
Asa arose and said: ‘I do not have the power to kill them, but I will pursue them and You do [the killing].’ He said to him: ‘I will do so,’ as it is stated: “Asa…pursued them…as they were broken before the Lord and before His camp; they carried a great many spoils” (II Chronicles 14:12). “Before Asa” is not written here, but rather, “before the Lord and before His camp.”
Yehoshafat arose and said: ‘I have the power neither to kill nor to pursue; rather, I will recite song and You do so.’ The Holy One blessed be He said to him: ‘I will do so,’ as it is stated: “At the time that they began with song and praise, [the Lord set ambushes against the children of Amon, Moav, and the highlands of Se'ir]” (II Chronicles 20:22).
Hezekiah arose and said: ‘I have the power neither to kill, nor to pursue, nor to recite song; rather I will sleep in my bed and You do so.’ The Holy One blessed be He said to him: ‘I will do so,’ as it is stated: “It was on that night that an angel of the Lord went out and smote in the camp of the Assyrians”
======
"As for the swords, they used them to kill the egel worshippers."
Indeed. Maybe the next time you have an urge to quote Moshe Rabbeinu, you could quote *this* https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9893/jewish/Chapter-32.htm#v26 for a change.
That source is talking about people who were incapable of fighting ("I do not have the power to ____").
Charedim are capable of fighting, they just choose not to.
That's a fair point. But I don't think it changes the fact that they, eg, substituted saying shirah for fighting.
Great Lets Copy Hesekiah.No killing No Pursuing, No Songs. Lets just sleep in bed and Hams will just die out.
The uneducated and small minds, always find some verse here and there and run with it. See I got the solution.
NO everyone has got to pick up a gun and defend our lend -Full stop !
Dr Slifkin made a claim about sources. I provided a source which contradicts that. Please try to follow the conversation rather than simply spouting dumb talking points.
What a lot of waffle.
I pray for your mind Nathan. You're in such a broken state that your strength of rationalism has all but disappeared, certainly when it comes to Judaism and Israel.
I struggle with my thoughts about you. Because I didn't agree with the bans on your books and felt the charedi rabbis were overreacting. I believe they make mistakes many times. They are human, of course. We don't live in a time of prophecy.
However, the way you go on and on and you demonstrate endless understanding of the far Left, despicable people that not only could care less about our heritage and the Torah but actually, because of their lack of spiritual refinement, also have shown that they care less about Israel! By any objective measure, long before October 7th, those of us who are rational, saw actions from their camp never seen before in modern day Israel. Demonization of everyone they disagree with. Going directly to other countries, both ally and enemy of Israel, and trying to turn them against, supposedly Bibi, but we all know, actually the religious, because they see the writing on the wall and don't want a religious state. Asking soldiers to not report, etc... They were and are the clearest danger to the state of Israel. They literally do the work of Hamas. And all because they want to take down this government "at any cost" (a very Leftist religious doctrine). So, the fact that you see the Chareidim as the imminent danger, and the camp that's engaged directly in causing harm to Israel as "just another approach" is astonishingly blind. So, circling back, maybe the Rabbis who banned your work didn't get it wrong after all. Perhaps they saw in your writing a rationalism but with a slanted view against Torah and those who have dedicated everything for thousands of years to keep Torah so that there still exists a Torah and Jews to occupy Israel. Maybe rhey were more perceptive than I was.
Or, perhaps, this wasn't the case and their actions possibly started this prejudice that is now evolving im to a full fledged irrational view of the world. In other words, I'm struggling with the cause/effect chicken/egg question. I'll conclude with what I began, I pray for your mind. I hope you can come back to what used to be a rationalist Jewish mind instead of wherever it is now, which is an irrational obsessive hostility which has you focusing all your energy on a group that's not as dangerous as you make them out to be, ignoring those that represent a true national danger and, in general, adding constant flames to the hatred machine, which, is just plain dumb under all circumstances.
Stop struggling - it is not good for your heart. Your just a charedi apologist and defend them with a few beautiful words, don't struggle, simply just know your place!
Let me try and see if I can make a dent and correct you -
It was not TORAH that kept us all these many generations, most generations there was very little learning and almost no Yeshivas. If there were 50 people learning all day in the entire Europe that was a good generation. It was MITZVAHS that kept us, Shabbos, Tiffilin, Kosher, Tzdukah. etc. that we kept and that is why we are here. You try to move that to "Learning Torah all day", which is just a smoke screen to sit and enjoy life, come home to your families each night and let others do the hard work.
"While it might seem that those protesting the government and those supporting the government are very far apart and in a non-achdus state, that’s a superficial difference. Underneath, most of the people on both sides are deeply concerned about Israel’s present and future; they just have different ideas about the best way to move forward."
By this logic, Yigal Amir and Yitzchak Rabin were both engaged in achdus too. They just had a difference of opinion whether Oslo would bring peace or get people blown up in suicide bombings. And Rabin achdus-ed people to death on the Altalena.
....with 'achdus' like that, I'll take pirud.
Essentially, you're employing a slippery slope argument by citing extreme historical examples (Amir and Rabin, Altalena), implying that disagreement could lead to acts of violence. While it's true that in the past 75+ years, there have been virtually no instances of Charedim engaging in significant large-scale violence, this is because they are isolated and pacifist, similar to the Amish in the US, who don't participate in national defense, and have no weapons. Is that really the model you prefer? Because an Israel based on that approach wouldn't last long
No. He's saying that counterproductive protests are the same thing as killing.
Don't clear the fog, embrace it for what it is: clouded thinking. Then you can easily reject such silly opinions.
I'm saying no such thing. If anything, Dr Slifkin is implying that. See my reply to Ezra Brand. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/joy-amidst-pain/comment/67832816
I'm not making a slippery slope argument at all. My point is that Dr Slifkin's *own* definition already necessitates that conclusion. If anything, I'm making a reductio ad absurdum argument. And there's nothing fallacious about pointing out the absurdity of someone else's position.
"Is that really the model you prefer? Because an Israel based on that approach wouldn't last long"
I didn't put forward a model.
... And they were right about it. Where did Netanyahu's anti-Oslo schemes bring us?
The anti-Oslo people have exactly zero to apologize for in 2024. The pro-Oslo people do. And yet they never do.
They do or they never do?
Do try to write your nonsense in a clear style.
They have what to apologize for and never apologize. Thousands dead, and they still live in their dream world.
Try to write politely.
"he was very proud of the achdus displayed by his group dancing with everyone else. He contrasted them to the anti-government protestors in Tel Aviv who foment hatred and divisiveness. But personally, I think that he had it exactly backwards.
While it might seem that those protesting the government and those supporting the government are very far apart and in a non-achdus state, that’s a superficial difference. Underneath, most of the people on both sides are deeply concerned about Israel’s present and future; they just have different ideas about the best way to move forward. "
It's impossible to make a blanket statement concerning the attitude of the protesters, as it's doubtful they are of one mind. What you and your Charedi acquaintance have failed to realize is the distinction between acts of אחדות and declarations of אחדות. You defend the empty counterproductive demonstrations because they "are deeply concerned" and is not a "smokescreen". Not so. Whatever useful activities and genuine patriotic acts the demonstrators engage in when they are off the streets have no bearing on the fact that the demonstrations do not contribute to אחדות.
You are also incorrect when you dismiss Charedi declarations of אחדות as a smokescreen. You have repeatedly reported on extreme Charedi statements that negate any contribution made by the soldiers, or even חסד organizations who assist the soldiers. A great part of the Charedi world don't know how to handle the situation, and is not quite ready to contribute in a real manner beyond slogans and signalling. In contrast to the utter negative (and anti-traditional) attitude that is frequent in the Charedi community, it's progress. For the protestors, it's not progress- it's vanity and stagnation.
The charedi person who made the claim did not grow up charedi. It was vanity and stagnation for him, not progress.
My father, Rav Yaacov Haber, often teaches that the idea of Achdus — uniformity — is misguided. Why should we all strive to be the same? What truly matters is Yachdus: embracing our differences, valuing one another as we are, and, through this acceptance, coming together to form a stronger, more unified whole.
I don't think that's relevant to this issue.
Your post calls for Achdus, but I believe what we truly need is Yachdus — a unity that honors our differences rather than attempts to erase them.
I’m not here to defend or criticize Charedim. What matters is recognizing Charedim as people who are different from us — whether they are in a restaurant, on vacation, or doing anything that some might feel they shouldn't because they aren’t in the army. We must accept them for who they are, just as they accept those who are not Charedim.
True unity, Yachdus, occurs when we genuinely accept one another at a deep, heartfelt level. In this light, the call for Achdus might be somewhat misguided and perhaps even irrelevant to the broader conversation.
Huh? Why would we accept a group that is harmful? Should we accept Neturei Karta? JVP?
I think it's important to approach this discussion with a level-headed and mature perspective, without letting emotional bias cloud our judgment, however valid that may be. Mainstream Charedim are not inherently more harmful than any other group. It’s crucial to recognize the diversity within the community rather than making sweeping generalizations.
We can all agree that groups like Neturei Karta are outliers, not representative of the broader Charedi population. Let's focus on fostering understanding and respectful dialogue, rather than resorting to divisive rhetoric.
Of course they are wrong and harmful. They don't share the burden of army service and they drain the economy.
Are you done?
Looks like a new tactic by Charedim or defenders of Charedim - Kum By Yah lets all be friends. Get together have achdus,, kiss and love each other.
However, the others just sat shiva for a son killed in war , while you draft dodgers were sitting in restaurants eating fatty meats, and all the while keep asking for achdus. Pull the other foot it has bells.
"And the first step is acknowledging what achdus actually means"
The root of the word "achdus" can be "echad" or "ichud", .i.e. "one" or "togetherness". Chareidim dancing with secular Jews shows at the end of the day we are "one people" and can live "together". Seems like a pretty good example of "achdus".
Chareidim davening and learning extra as a merit for their DL/secular brethren on the battlefield show we are "one people" and we care about each other.
Your idea of "sharing in the national burden" has nothing to do with "achdus" and everything to do with "think and be like me or I'll hate you" i.e. pirud.
But at least there are some DL Rabbis who understand the situation in Israel and are trying to solve it...https://www.5tjt.com/the-chareidi-draft-crisis/
Dancing with people as a replacement for actually helping them is replacing real care with superficial care that makes them feel okay with avoiding the real care.
It means that they have stepped away from the more extreme sentiments in the Charedi world.
The same can't be said about the protesters who while on the streets are doing nothing useful. And the morons at the Histadrut- blowing up the economy and inadvertently rewarding the Hamas Nazis? Idiots- not אחדות!
..and posting some posts on social media as a replacement for actually serving in the IDF is replacing real care with superficial care that makes you feel okay with avoiding the real care.
You see what I mean? Everyone has their own ideas how they believe they are helping, and you have no right to negate anyone who believes different than you.
Um, I don't present my posts as a replacement for IDF service. My kids are in the army.
Aha, so you never fought in the army, and you sit behind a computer bashing Chareidim, and alternatively running a (profitable) zoo, but your kids go to the army, so you feel like you have contributed to the war. An objective observer would wonder where the contribution is, but that's what you believe, and I'm fine with that. Chareidim believe their contribution comes in the way of davening and learning as a source of merit, even if they are not actively in combat. You know what? I'm fine with that too. Neither I nor you have a right to question someone's belief.
Incidentally, my museum is a non-profit which assists with helping war victims.
Huh? I feel that I failed to contribute as a young man, and now for various reasons I cannot serve in the IDF, but I contribute in other ways that are universally regarded as beneficial. I have every right to challenge the claim of charedim that they are helping, and to show that it has no basis in Judaism, morality, or their actions in other areas.
But no one can challenge your claim that you are helping? That sounds very fair.
As for your claim about basis in Judaism, morality, etc. it would at least have the appearance of honesty if you admitted it's your idea of Judaism and morality. Obviously, the Rabbanim in the Chareidi community think differently.
Reciting a few prayers while refusing to share in the actual hard work and sacrifice, and consequently making everyone else have to sacrifice even more, does not demonstrate care.
Again with the hyperbole. "You criticized our behavior. You hate us!" It's like arguing with a teenaged girl.
Yes. I think there will be. The prospect of it nauseates me. Kind of like foreseeing what was likely to happen after the Oslo accords, or the withdrawal from Gaza. Horror.
Are you doing something to prevent this situation?
Personally? Aside from writing my opinions as frankly and as tactfully as I can in certain forums (using my real name), I don't bring up the subject with the haredim in my life and in my extended family, and I strive to treat everyone with respect. I make a point of publicizing what I see as positive behavior on this matter regarding haredim I know or encounter.
I try to avoid responding to obvious trolls here, unless I believe I can set the record straight for serious commentators and lurkers. In particular, for the meantime, I skip over comments by people like Fluffy (who keeps changing his pseudonym), because he's not worth bothering with.
You misunderstand. I'm not exaggerating, nor am I advocating force or violence. But in all honesty, I think it's increasingly likely that there's going to be violence against individual haredim in the public sphere as an emotional backlash against their mass refusal to serve in this war. And of course, mobs and gangs are rarely careful with how they dispense "justice", that is their nature.
This isn't a criticism, it's a social observation. And yes, avoidance of personal and public shame and social consequences has always been one of many reasons reluctant men in various societies have enlisted, or at the very least, not resisted the draft. You can ratchet on and on about "achdus", but you will never be able to erase this shame and sense of deep resentment from those who have served and their families. It will create higher barriers between many Jews and what they perceive as "Torah".
It's not hyperbole. I think it's coming. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. Anarchic violence is a horrible thing.
Achdus is about sacrifice for each other. Where has been the Charedi sacrifice?
Which part of the word Achdus means sacrifice?! Do you really believe if one doesn't serve in the army, it means he has no sense of achdus? If someone gives a large donation to the IDF, Hatzalah, Zaka, etc. or anything which helps the war effort, he/she has no achdus?! What is wrong with you?
If he is incapable of being in the army, these are excellent substitutes. But they are not a replacement for a community that should be drafting. It's disturbing that you don't grasp that.
For the record, as an American Jew, I'm couldn't really consider myself as having meaningful achdus. I'm not sacrificing in that way.
Sacrifice is the litmus test for me.
Giving large amounts of money is a sacrifice.
He literally has children in the IDF?
His son will be in a regular unit. That is sacrifice. His daughter put her life on hold for the army. That’s sacrifice. You haven’t sacrificed anything.
Having children in active service is sacrifice. These are his kids, he raised them and is actively supporting their needs. This is a meaningful sacrifice.
Maybe he considers it a sacrifice..
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/guns-girls-and-gemaras
What is wrong with you, man?
Look at the drivel you post and reexamine your life choices. It is pathetic.
I find this discussion very strange. Understanding what Achdut really means should not be such an esoteric question. We know that infighting destroys the fabric of the nation and emboldens our enemies, regardless of the good intentions of those involved. The fact that people are unable to talk peacefully to, or about, each other is clearly a problem of Achdut that destroys our nation. The question is how do we get out of the mess we are in when we each of us feels so strongly that we are in the right and others are the cause of the problem.
My humble suggestion is that secret sauce of Achdut is the ability to say we are all brothers and sisters and that we love and care about each other, regardless of what we think of their opinions and lifestyles. Any criticism can be deemed legitimate if it can be said in the same breath as "They are my brothers and I care about them". If not, then I don't think one is being intellectually honest in their claims to desire Achdut. They are redefining Achdut to justify them doing what they want to do.
Trying to achieve so-called Achdut by seeking the submission of one's opponents will lead to churban r"l.
"If not, then I don't think one is being intellectually honest in their claims to desire Achdut. "
@natan
Great comment, Danny!
Well, the protesters are pretty open about their belief that they, and only they, care about the hostages.
And this very host has stated that Bibi doesn't, simply because he (understandably, as he has a country to run) has certain priorities, priorities unrecognized by either protesters or host.
There you go.
They don’t care only about the hostages. They care about their families, their friends. Their communities. In fact they care about all of us and what this choice of his does to the moral fiber of our nation
Right, and the rest of the country doesn't.
Doesn't being the only moral person in the room get tiring after a while?
Hi Nachum,
I don’t see how your point relates to mine.
I think I was responding to a deleted comment.
Natan, you have decided on a very rigid definition of what achdus is and you have decided that anything outside your definition does not count as achdus.
Achdus comes in many forms and layers. Even a superficial form of achdus is considered achdus, even if it's not the highest form that you would hope for.
I see that you get triggered every time someone uses the achdus word when it involves chareidim. I get why, it's frustrating and you want to make sure it's clear to everyone that chareidim are on the outside and you are concerned that if people accept this as achdus, then they may G-d forbid accept chareidim as is. You need to be sure everyone realizes how bad chareidim really are.
But you shouldn't deny that there can be a level of achdus even without chareidim serving in the army. You can have an opinion on what IDEAL achdus is, but you don't have ownership of the term to declare that anything less is not called achdus at all.
It's amazing - I have no idea who you are, and yet I can be 100% certain that you don't have kids in the army!
Indeed. It's odd that some people assume your disputes with the haredi derech are an emotional response to the book bans. Sending kids, or husbands, to Tzahal has to be at least significant.
You are correct and brilliant, but that doesn't negate my point
Okay, so here's the negation: Dancing with people or davening for them as a replacement for actually helping them is replacing real care with superficial care that makes them feel okay with avoiding the real care.
Imagine if you really, really needed help with something and I was perfectly capable of helping you but instead reassured you that I'm davening for you instead.
Now, instead of saying he is perfectly capable of helping (in the exact way you want), he tells you that he is following the people he trusts who advise that it is harmful for him to help you in that way.
Despite that, he is praying for you, donating money to your cause and cooking meals for you.
You don't agree that qualifies?
Er, no. (And incidentally, the community is not donating money, instead they are demanding money!)
The community is vast with many different subgroups.
It's annoying that you tend to group everyone together
No. It’s nowhere near enough when others are risking thier lives. Selfish selfish selfish
Yeh - lets all get along - why do we have to keep criticizing others. There is a better way
Calling all Shop lifters, Pedophiles, Home invaders, come let all sing and get along. WE are from the same Religion.
מי כעמך ישראל
עַל־אֵ֣לֶּה ׀ אֲנִ֣י בוֹכִיָּ֗ה עֵינִ֤י ׀ עֵינִי֙ יֹ֣רְדָה מַּ֔יִם כִּֽי־רָחַ֥ק מִמֶּ֛נִּי מְנַחֵ֖ם מֵשִׁ֣יב נַפְשִׁ֑י הָי֤וּ בָנַי֙ שֽׁוֹמֵמִ֔ים כִּ֥י גָבַ֖ר אוֹיֵֽב:
Make no mistake, lots of people at the protests are having a good time too. I won't say they want to destroy the country- only a few anarchists do, but alas they have a big voice- and I won't say they don't have the best interests of the country (as they see it, of course) at heart- but it's definitely a "thing" for them, and one that's risking a lot more lives, especially of the hostages (not of course that they intend that), than having a good time at Pitmaster- a place that's been on my list for a while- does. Not to mention, of course, inconveniencing or worse the lives of a lot of people who may or may not agree with their actions.
(Others in the media have already tried the trick of asking protest organizers if they would be happy or sad if the IDF freed all the hostages tomorrow. The responses are telling.)
So what, then, makes them different from charedim at a restaurant? Well, the latter aren't blocking the streets (or at least not currently- charedim block the streets plenty), and of course the latter aren't serving in the IDF. But again let's be honest: Lots of those at the protests- probably an overwhelming majority- aren't *currently* serving at all. (Almost all of those over whom the huge fuss about "refusal" was made last year weren't serving either.) They *did* serve in the past, and God bless them, and some of them are off-and-on serving now, and God bless them too, but let's not let the masses off the hook here either just to make a point, please.
Yeah we’re having a great time. Holding pictures of hostages listening to their friends and families speak about their love for them and the pain they and we feel for their suffering. The beatings. The torture. The rapes. Yeah we’re having a blast on Azza in front of bibi’s home.
First, I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not in front of Bibi's home. Bibi lives at 35 Azza, and no protesters are allowed within a hundred meters or more of that place. (The official prime minister's residence has been empty for years.) And of course on weekends he's in Caesaria.
Do you know whose home you *have* been in front of all this time? Mine. I've seen you. I know you. So let me say this:
Believe it or not, there are people in Israel who care about the hostages apart from you people screaming and banging drums. All of us do. Even Bibi does. We may even care about them *more* than you, as we're not screaming in favor of surrender to Hamas. And because we somehow manage to care without joining in mobs that, let's be honest, have little to nothing to do with the hostages and have everything to do with a Bibi hatred (which, in fact, some of us share) that's been around since 1995. And because we manage to care without making life hell for ordinary people trying to live their lives. (My bus in Tel Aviv today had to drop me off on the side of a highway and I had to run for my train because people who care about the hostages SO MUCH just HAD to block Rechov Begin.) Not enjoy it? Maybe you can't see it from the middle of a mob getting hopped up on adrenaline and self-righteousness and not a little pot, but oh yeah, people enjoy it. The ones who beat me and sent me to the hospital really seemed to be enjoying themselves. I hope you weren't one of them.
Our kids didn't sleep for five years. So we moved a short distance away, and you followed us. Thanks. I hope it's worth it.
So go and move. I’m just down the street also at Azza Berlin and Herzog. I see hear and can smell the skunk water too.
And Bibi DOES stay there occasionally and would even more if not for the protests. Before them you could see his car entering most nights.
Maybe ask him to sell so he has no connection to the neighborhood he’s polluting. I’m sure he could get a great price. By the way no one is I favor of surrender. We just want the hostages to be relieved from their hell. And don’t you say if it wasn’t a close friend or relative you wouldn’t do exactly what they are trying to move heaven and earth to get them home.
Oh, the skunk water is the problem? Not setting the street on fire? Not all the noise? Bibi is "polluting"? Oh, "go move"? (Why don't *you* move?) Aren't you pleasant. I know your type, I've dealt with your type and probably with you. You don't commute, do you? Don't have to get kids to school through that, do you? I hope you're not that way around your family and friends.
I know where he stays. Just not around where you're busy screaming.
You see, the thing is, you are *not* a relative. So don't try to pull that on me.
Yes or no: Do people who not show up at these things (who include, yes, families of hostages, and literally 99% of the country) care about the hostages as much as you? Yes or no?
Oy, Reb Nosson, gevalt! My sweetest, sweetest friend, what a picture you’ve shared! Yidden dancing together, mamash like malachim, in such a beautiful achdus, like we’ve never seen. You know, in these tzarikheh tzaytn, it’s a glimpse of the Geulah, a taste of Moshiach’s world where we’re all shtark united in love and joy. But oy, oy vey, Reb Nosson, how can you mix in such a shreklicheh hatred? How can you distort this precious moment with such anger and judgment? You’re sounding, oy, like a self-hating Yid, like a Yid who’s become an anti-Semitic Yid, chas v’shalom! Who do you think you are, my kinderlach? It’s heartbreaking. You should be ashamed, truly ashamed.
But listen to me, Reb Nosson, you’re a Yid, a precious neshama, and I know you’re suffering. Maybe, maybe you’re just missing the boat, not seeing the emes, not feeling the emes. Oy, the Master of the world should have rachmones on you, may He open your eyes to shalom. Don’t you see? The Ribbono Shel Olam gives koach to His people, but sometimes, oy, the klipa—this klipa, it takes that koach and it twists it, it spins it, oy, it turns it into something else entirely. It’s like the klipa, it’s like a veil over your eyes, blinding you from the light, making everything so farblonget.
Ay, you’re gonna tell me now about the Charedim and the supposed draft dodgers, right? But let me tell you something, tataleh. The Chazon Ish made an agreement with Ben Gurion back in the day, and there were plenty of Chassidim who even joined the army. But then, oy, the Tzionim, they changed their part of the deal! Just like Kamala Harris, who flip-flops on everything, and then she blames her opponent for her confusion. That’s exactly what’s happening here! And you, Reb Nosson, you’ve been sucked into the vacuum of the klipa, falling for the lies, mamash trapped in the confusion. Please, please don’t let the klipa take hold.
Maybe, maybe if you read some of my posts, which I share from the heilige Rebbe, Reb Shlomo, you’ll be able to come back, to see the light, to feel the light again. Remember, we are a strong people, so full of ahavas Yisroel, so full of love for one another. You showed that love in this image, tataleh, so why let the klipa poison it? Have the koach to see the koach the Master of the world gave us, to appreciate it, to hold on to it. And then, oy, then we will have so much shalom, shalom everywhere, shalom in our hearts, shalom in our homes, and shalom in the whole velt. Gevalt! Let’s hold on to that vision, and not let anything tear us apart, not the klipa, not the sitra achra, nothing.
"a taste of Moshiach’s world where we’re all shtark united in love and joy"
Being shtark united in love and joy is easy and meaningless. Being shartk united in care and concern and mutual responsibility is what counts.
"Being shartk united in care and concern and mutual responsibility is what counts."
Are you "united in care and concern" with...Chareidim?
He's pulling your leg. And I've heard what people like him say about, oh, everyone who isn't אנ"ש behind our backs. They aren't fooling anybody.
Ah, my brother, I’m hearing your heart, and I want to share something with you, deep and real. You know, love and joy, they’re not just fluffy feelings, they’re not just about dancing around. Real love, real joy—oh, it’s the deepest care, the deepest concern, the deepest responsibility we can ever have. When we’re really shtark in that love, we can’t help but carry each other, be there for each other, like the sweetest Torah of being one family. It's not an escape; it’s the most authentic place of connection, where all the walls fall down.
I feel maybe you’re struggling a little, maybe pushing against that. And gevalt, we all get caught sometimes in those places, behind the klipa. But I want you to know, it’s so thin, it’s just a breath away. With a little more love, a little more simcha, you can break through, mamash, and come back to your true self, to the sweetest light waiting for you.
This is the derech of the Baal Shem Tov, the path of the deepest tzaddikim. They knew that even the most far-flung Yiddela, hiding behind the rationalism, the questions, the doubts—they’re just one niggun away from coming home to the Eibishter, who’s holding us all with such love. And I know, brother, there’s so much light in you. We’re all walking together, bringing each other closer, lifting each other higher. So let’s keep moving forward, with love, with joy—and with every step, you’re going to shine even brighter.
Gevalt, you’re already shining.
The Chazon Ish never made any sort of deal with Ben Gurion, neither did he have any power to. (Ben Gurion didn't either.) They met, talked, parted. And charedim have been lying about that meeting ever since.
The Chazon Ish also died decades before charedim began to be exempted en masse, for reasons that had nothing to do with Israel "changing any deal." Israel "changed the deal" by *giving* them exemptions.
Your arguments, such as they are, would be much more effective if you had actual facts on your side.
Hey brother, let’s be real for a second. What you’re saying? It’s mamash hearsay. Those who know, they know—and they’re not stam sitting around making things up. Some of the people you're dismissing? They were there, they served in the units, they lived it, breathed it. This isn’t just stories for the olam to tell over. We’re talking real history, real people, and real conversations that shaped everything that came after.
Before you start with the accusations about people lying, maybe take a deep breath. Get out of your klipa, read some history, talk to the yiddelach who actually lived through those days. This whole academic way of looking at the world? It’s cold, it’s distant. It keeps you far from the heart of what’s real. And let me tell you, when you’re wrapped up in that mindset, you miss the emes that’s right in front of you.
But it doesn’t have to be that way, you know? There’s a deeper truth out there, a warmth, a reality that’s not just about theories but about people’s lives. So let’s stop making up stories to fit a narrative. The world becomes a brighter place when we stop tearing down and start building up together, with love and with emes, like the derech of our holy Rebbes taught us. Trust me, the moment you let that light in, you’ll see everything clearer.
This is a joke, right?
I think it may be AI.
no jokes brother - see my latest post on this, originally shared by the Rebba Reb Shlome'le back in '88 - https://rebshlomo.substack.com/p/living-with-2000-klipot-how-do-we
Just to change the topic for a moment - we went to Pitmaster a couple of months ago too and absolutely loved it!
"Those protesting the government ... are deeply concerned about Israel’s present and future; they just have different ideas about the best way to move forward."
I don't agree with you. They are not just protesting the government; they want the government to surrender to Hamas, which would allow Hamas to rebuild itself and get ready for the next October 7, render all the sacrifices and losses meaningless.
Even if Israel withdraws from Gaza, who said that Hamas will release the hostages? As if Israel is the one who has those hostages and does not want them released. Hamas is the one holding hostages, so maybe those protesters should go to Gaza to protest Hamas?
I can see that you haven't actually spoken to them. See Simon Furst's comment.
Simon Furst seems not to have been in the middle of a chanting, screaming, drum-banging, worked-up, potted-up, crowd. Catch anyone in a calm mood and they can seem very rational.
I read it, and?
Let me repeat myself: Even if Israel withdraws from Gaza, who said that Hamas will release the hostages?
I am not questioning their belief that withdrawing from Gaza is "the best way to move forward". I would like somebody to explain to me what makes it the best way?
Their best intensions notwithstanding, objectively they are helping Hamas, by giving them hope that under international and domestic pressure Israel will surrender.
They are not IDF-dodgers. While you may disapprove of the law, they are legally exempt from military service. It's similar to how taking advantage of a tax loophole is not the same as tax evasion.
Um, they are no longer legally exempt. The law expired.
They are not morally exempt.
That's a different story (I happen to agree with you) but they are not dodgers. They are law abiding citizens.
The deferment expired. This is the kind of "arrangement" that can slide by only with a tiny minority, and Israeli haredim are no longer a tiny, low-visibility minority.
They claim to follow Torah Law. They aren’t.
Are you an expert in Torah law? You said that someone who hasn’t had medical training should not get involved in medical issues. I say the same thing to you. Are you an expert in Torah law? How many years did you dedicate to learning Torah? Did you learn through Shas and tur shulchan aruch even once?
Torah law says point blank through Moshe when Jews have a war all Jews must participate. I don’t need the commentaries for that
You just proved that you are a complete ignoramus as to how Halacha works. We don’t pasken from Chumash. The oral law many times reinterprets the plain meaning of the text. For example it says explicitly in the Torah עין תחת עין do we do that?