I think you should be happy about this video. Change in charedi society can only come from within. Boys dressing up as half IDF soilders is a not so subtle signal that you can be both chareidi and a soilder.
"Sigh.i really wish I didn't have to post this..." You're really doing God's work here. Standing up for the honor of those who don't appreciate torah. You just couldn't help it, your middah of kanaus was to overpowering!
Interesting to think about how you would've turned out in a different environment lol. You could've been the guy who screams loudest when people listen to acapella during sefira 🤣
> "Change in charedi society can only come from within."
The hope was that change in Chareidi society would come from within. Clearly that hasn't happened, despite decades of predictions that it would. At this point, the change will have to forced from outside, via cuts in funding and whatever other tools available in the liberal democratic toolkit
Probably a garbage statistic. Fertility rates were declining before the cuts. But even if there is some causative effect, it makes very little difference, chareidim still had a vastly higher birthrate than the much wealthier chilonim.
As I said, the report is there on line. We all know that haredi women have more children on average than chilonim, the question was if a reduction in government subsidies impacts haredi behavior in any way, in this case, the fertility rate.
There used to be a big increase in the payments from the 5th child onward, with haredi politicians demanding a further increase after the 7th child. That was all dropped. Now, there's a smaller subsidy for the first 3 children, which does not go up with the # of children. The study shows that the drop in subsidy was not accompanied by any decrease among secular Israeli Jews, but there was among the haredim and the Bedouins.
I saw the report. It found that fertility was declining for all sectors both before and after the cuts, except for non-chareidi Jews where it increased after the cuts. It found that fertility declined more than they would have expected after the cuts, but only for chareidim and Bedouins of the South, but not Bedouins of the North, not chilonim, not Arabs who don't live in Jerusalem, and not Druze. Maybe their conclusion is correct, but the whole thing sounds like a just-so story.
That's a summary of a much longer report done by the government on the effect of the big cuts to the Child Allowance subsidies on the rate of family growth in various sectors of the population. You can find the original report online as well.
Indeed. It's a massive improvement over the חרדק slur. It contradicts the notion that the soldier's sacrifices mean nothing and are the best השתדלות.
It could be a nod to בקשתי ובחרבי.
I wouldn't read too much into the intent of every parent who purchased the costume. Perhaps you'd prefer a costume that's 80% IDF and 20% Ponevezh? Well, you don't need to be Edith Head to realize how stupid that would look. And in any case, you'd probably complain that such a weird costume would indicate that it takes four soldiers to be equivalent of a Yeshiva guy. Ironically, you'd be still be wrong since Ponevezhers are also well trained in battle!
The idea that each half is doing its part independently is a perversion of the Torah and of normative Halacha. If that's the message of this video then it's worse than child pornography.
I get what you're saying. But I still appreciate the video. Charedi kids being taught to show respect and solidarity with chayalim is a step in the right direction.
While I completely agree with you, I don't think that the politicians are realistic. One cannot force an entire brainwashed sector to serve. Furthermore, you can speak to them with logic all you'd like, they will ultimately follow the gedoylim. Any politician who talks about shivyon banetel knows this but they make waves about it too score some some points. The only thing they can and should do is defund any institution that does not teach quality curriculums, and provide financial incentives to serve. Anything else just causes division and is not realistic.
Agreed, societal changes take time in small steps. Start with kittah alef that helping the national defence isn't such a bad thing (in addition to Rebbe Alter 'tapes'), and in 20 years things will be different.
Disagree. There is absolutely no way anyone can reason with them or expect change from within as they will follow the gedolim blindly no matter what. We all know this. We as a country cannot force it and definitely can't speak logic as this is driven by blind faith. The country therefore needs to act in it's own best interest and provide incentives to contributors and stop funding institutions that burden the system. All other talk (media and politicians) about horrible it is doesn't get anywhere and is divisive. That being said, I appreciate Nathan's posts as they a insightful to people who are not following with blind faith. As a frum person, it helps me feel comfortable with my non charedi identity. It's a lechatchila not a bidieved.
The only way that you get the government to stop funding the charedim is if charedim are out of the government. And the only way you make that happen is by talking about the problems.
I think that everyone is aware of the problem. However the real problem is that the charedi parties are viewed as the natural partners of the "right" and israel is shifting right. Likud is run by a bunch of corrupt kablanei kolot who would sell their mothers for power and the religious zionist parties support funding these institutions and somehow have no issue with these anti zionist parties. Then you have the center and center left who won't get into power as the country has shifted "right". The politicians from the "right" who speak about the need for equality end up voting with the charedim so they are all a bunch of talk and the politicians from the "left" know damn well that you can't force it but they talk about it too score points.
Agree - the statements made by that fellow Tzvi Fishman are simply sick and sickening. He should be declared a danger to the public welfare and be arrested as such.
The IDF should also do some more of what it did with Modiin Ilit a few months ago. It should stop protecting Charedi areas where IDF soldiers are harassed (to the extent such realignments are local in nature and do impact other broader missions affecting other communities).
Seems to me that nothing short of the end of Chareidim as a hashkafa will really make you happy. Chareidim must join the army no psharos nothing to allow them to fulfill their religious obligations as they understand them. Even if they would find a derech to serve it would not be enough for you and this blog would still publish page after page of anti Chareidi propaganda
Even Yair Lapid spoke of giving exemptions from army service/national service to 18,000 students.
It should be very easy to determine which students are exceptional. I learned in the Mifal HaShas program when I was in Kollel. There is a monthly 3-hour exam with 25 questions, and many of the questions consist of several parts. If you get over 90, you receive a $100 bonus. The exam doesn't have your name on it, just your ID number, so there is no chance for any favoritism, of someone being given a higher grade than he really earned.
If a Torah scholar consistently gets over 90 on those exams, I think he's earned an exemption.
I dunno he is clearly taking money for learning, dependent on quantity (so no dodgy schar batoloh sevoro) and is acting completely contrary to halochoh.
If universities already grant scholarships for promising students in all sorts of subjects, why can't the frum community give monetary incentives to devoted learners who clearly have a good head, and are utilizing their skills in learning Torah?
Because taking money for learning torah happens to be ossur. Now, there are dodgy loopholes based on sechar battoloh or subistance payments. But even the dodginess breaks down and they do not work when the payment received is directly linked to the amount of learning. That is clearly not sechar battoloh (it is sechar for each daf) and it has no link to substinance.
I am amazed you think what happens in universities is somehow relevant to halochoh.
Mifal HaShas has 4 tracks: 1. 20 daf Gemara, with Rashi and Tosfos
2. 30 daf Gemara, with Rashi and Tosfos
3. Orach Chaim/Yoreh Deah--10 daf a month, with Mishneh Berurah/Nekudos HaKesef
4. Even HaEzer/Choshen Mishpat--8 daf a month with Ketzos haChoshen.
Then there is the "Kollel Shas", which (in my opinion) is for super-Geonim: I think it's around 70 daf a month, Rashi and Tosfos! Someone who learns at that pace and gets over 90 on the exam deserves to be called someone that תורתו אומנותו, to all opinions.
Yes - Charedi (especially Litvish) "Hashkafa" has reached the point where it is a perversion of the Torah and Halacha. Any God fearing Torah learning Jew MUST stay away from it - in any way shape or form.
Wow, Slifkin. I am really saddened by the constant denunciations. It appears Chareidi hatred blinds you. This video's absolutely clear intent is to stand for the idea that a Yid can be BOTH a soldier and and a yeshiva bachur. IE that a ben yeshiva SHOULD absolutely serve. IE that EACH person should have both identities. NOT that each kid stands for society as a whole and that society as a whole should be split that way! The Chareidi haters are blinded and take every statement the worst possible way. They can't even see when someone agrees with them! They seem bound and determined to hate and see nothing good from Chareidim even when there is an absolutely clear statement of support for their own position that Chareidi boys must serve!
You are missing the point. This is a subversive propaganda message, telling chareidim that being chareidi and IDF are compatible (which it is currently not). If he was in full IDF clothing you would just think he is a chardal kid, and the point would be lost.
As a member of the sector that serves, learns, prays, loses income, work time, and sleep, *I* find this both offensive and stupid. Frankly, the haredi community in Israel needs to tread lightly right now. They are not, to say the least endearing themselves to their fellow citizens or the rest of Am Yisael.
Funny that you should say that - Rav Landau warned yeshiva students not to collect in non-charedi areas, precisely because the haredi community in Israel needs to tread lightly right now.
If Charedim were indeed brainwashed, deprogramming would work on them.
But the deprogramming bag of tricks only works on people caught in a cult, and doesn't work on Charedim. Because it isn't blind faith, it isn't a cult, and people are not brainwashed.
For example, if Gur's beliefs weren't cult-like then they'd have no issue with a split-off group. No issue with people trying to leave Gur. No attempts to excommunicate people and families who have left Gur or try to leave Gur - even when they still remain chassidish and even when they remain aligned with "classic Gur" teachings and communities. They wouldn't try to remove children from their parents who have left Gur for the other community. This has all the makings of a cult - and they are the LARGEST charedi group in Israel today.
But the only way for you to 'prove' your point is by changing it the whole time. Because honesty does not fit with that worldview. As we have seen multiple times on this blog and in the comment section.
Deprogramming only works against cult brainwashing, not to change people's beliefs. And it doesn't work to reverse Baalei Teshuva, as has been shown multiple times.
No, criticisms are only okay if they are valid. The fact that someone is offended because they have been called out for wrong behavior is not reason not to call out wrong behavior.
So when you mentioned the offensiveness, you were really chasing a red herring. The claim is either right or wrong, something for which you don't have the training to discern, but you focused on the irrelevant 'offensive' claim.
Funnily enough, Halachic decisions are only discernible to those who invest the effort necessary to acquire the 48 Kinyanei Hatorah. Otherwise, it is just some ignorant brain flatulence. Anti-vaxxers in the Torah realm. Read some Google articles, sit in on a class somewhere, and spout inanities.
I think only a very 'special' type of outlook and mindset can take a cute video of three smiley (obviously sefardi) little kids and highlight this as representative of the evil Haredim. You are an intelligent person, Natan, why would you stoop to such childish, boorish and petty behavior? This is not even worthy of a fifth grade spat.
Regarding the remarks by "the Rabbi of the Peleg faction who declared that he’d rather have his children and grandchildren murdered by Hamas than join the IDF and risk becoming secular," he's probably right that his children and grandchildren would "risk" becoming secular were they drafted.
Likely, they almost surely would become secular.
That is because, once outside of the cult, they would see through the brainwashing they were brought up with and throw away their Yiddishkeit entirely, thinking that just as they were lied to about many aspects of society outside their cult, so too were they lied to about Torah m'Sinai, etc.
It's not logical, but that's how people are.
It speaks to the weakness of haredi culture, at least as to its most extreme and sheltered adherents.
Indeed. That's the little discussed part of the article by Tamir Granot mentioned a few posts ago. It would seem that the charedi dropout rate WITHOUT army service is more or less the same as the National Religious drop-out rate (which is about half prior to IDF service and the other half during IDF service). This is HUGE.
>" the charedi dropout rate WITHOUT army service is more or less the same as the National Religious drop-out rate"
As much as I wish this were true, it's factually false. Last I checked the statistics (a few months ago, based on statistics from the Israeli gov), the difference in drop-out rate between the groups is huge. For chareidim, drop-out rate is less than 5%, for dati leumi, it's around 30%
I have not read any statistics on drop-out rates. Do those statistics explain how they were derived? Offhand, it seems to me that it would be very difficult to get accurate (or even approximate) valid numbers from the Charedi world. How many families would respond, or would respond truthfully (wouldn't there be an attempt to downplay any numbers to uplift the opinion of their society?).
Actually, Joe, the truth as to which community addresses this problem squarely is precisely the opposite. In the Haredi world, a child going off the Derech is traumatic, and both the child and the extended family are candidates for therapy. Entire organizations have sprouted in the last few years to try and combat the problem, the community has contributed major funding to help alleviate the pain, and efforts are invested in preventative measures.
In contrast, in both the MO and RZ orbits, a kid who goes off the Derech is ho hum and life goes on. These kids are by and large successful. In Israel they join the Army, just as they were taught, take trips afterwards to Peru and Madagascar, and become high-powered professionals. In the USA they go to the Ivy League, just as their parents hoped. Well, they may not be too observant, but they do come home for Shabbos meals with their girlfriends, and they display 'Stand With Israel' or 'ביחד ננצח' bumper stickers, so it's not too bad.
Interesting comments, Tzvi. I used to live in the charedi world. It almost made me go "off the derech" (probably not, but I wasn't far from there). B"H, I found that I could still be a Torah believing Jew in the dati leumi world. I have known a number of charedi Jews who either went off the derech completely or became "tuna begels" (I hope I remembered that phrase correctly).
I would be curious to know what therapy means in the charedi world. Not that the information would mean much to me or do much for me; I deal well with computers and science; I really know nothing about psychology and people.
Uhh, Shlomo. The dropout rate from Yiddishkeit from those in the religious Zionist sector is alarmingly high, according to even the most liberal assessments. And in that case, it is often the best and brightest who are dropping out, while in ultra-orthodox society nearly every dropout is attributed to personal trauma and/or related familial and social problems, not a new and enhanced intellectual worldview.
"In ultra-orthodox society nearly every dropout is attributed to personal trauma and/or related familial and social problems, not a new and enhanced intellectual worldview."
But I was referring to the REAL reason many leave, not the reason their society attributes it to. And the real reasons are often far more complex than what haredi society - - and for that matter Dati Leumi society - - attributes it to.
That's rubbish. The latest studies show that the dropout rate from the RZ sector and the charedi sector are similar. and with the charedim it doesn't even involve IDF service! it's from within the charedi "bubble" itself.
I think you should be happy about this video. Change in charedi society can only come from within. Boys dressing up as half IDF soilders is a not so subtle signal that you can be both chareidi and a soilder.
Interesting perspective. Okay, so maybe it's a good thing within charedi circles. But it's offensive to send to non-charedim.
Chill, rabbi doctor, is the point.
"Sigh.i really wish I didn't have to post this..." You're really doing God's work here. Standing up for the honor of those who don't appreciate torah. You just couldn't help it, your middah of kanaus was to overpowering!
Interesting to think about how you would've turned out in a different environment lol. You could've been the guy who screams loudest when people listen to acapella during sefira 🤣
Standing up for the honor of those who don't appreciate torah - said no one, my friend Jerry :)
> "Change in charedi society can only come from within."
The hope was that change in Chareidi society would come from within. Clearly that hasn't happened, despite decades of predictions that it would. At this point, the change will have to forced from outside, via cuts in funding and whatever other tools available in the liberal democratic toolkit
Oh yes, the dreaded funding cuts. That will really make them forfeit all their religious principles.
The cuts to the child allowances were followed by a drop in the haredi birth rate.
Probably a garbage statistic. Fertility rates were declining before the cuts. But even if there is some causative effect, it makes very little difference, chareidim still had a vastly higher birthrate than the much wealthier chilonim.
As I said, the report is there on line. We all know that haredi women have more children on average than chilonim, the question was if a reduction in government subsidies impacts haredi behavior in any way, in this case, the fertility rate.
There used to be a big increase in the payments from the 5th child onward, with haredi politicians demanding a further increase after the 7th child. That was all dropped. Now, there's a smaller subsidy for the first 3 children, which does not go up with the # of children. The study shows that the drop in subsidy was not accompanied by any decrease among secular Israeli Jews, but there was among the haredim and the Bedouins.
I saw the report. It found that fertility was declining for all sectors both before and after the cuts, except for non-chareidi Jews where it increased after the cuts. It found that fertility declined more than they would have expected after the cuts, but only for chareidim and Bedouins of the South, but not Bedouins of the North, not chilonim, not Arabs who don't live in Jerusalem, and not Druze. Maybe their conclusion is correct, but the whole thing sounds like a just-so story.
Source please?
https://m.jpost.com/israel/background-how-child-allowances-impact-on-fertility-haredi-employment
That's a summary of a much longer report done by the government on the effect of the big cuts to the Child Allowance subsidies on the rate of family growth in various sectors of the population. You can find the original report online as well.
Maybe it's a step, compared to what has gone on before, but the clear intent of the costume is that each half is doing his part independently.
Indeed. It's a massive improvement over the חרדק slur. It contradicts the notion that the soldier's sacrifices mean nothing and are the best השתדלות.
It could be a nod to בקשתי ובחרבי.
I wouldn't read too much into the intent of every parent who purchased the costume. Perhaps you'd prefer a costume that's 80% IDF and 20% Ponevezh? Well, you don't need to be Edith Head to realize how stupid that would look. And in any case, you'd probably complain that such a weird costume would indicate that it takes four soldiers to be equivalent of a Yeshiva guy. Ironically, you'd be still be wrong since Ponevezhers are also well trained in battle!
The idea that each half is doing its part independently is a perversion of the Torah and of normative Halacha. If that's the message of this video then it's worse than child pornography.
Child pornography is child sex abuse material. That is children being sexually abused. Not the best comparison.
U gotta be kidding dude
Now THAT is offensive.
I actually find it very subversive.
Agreed. It's not subtle at all. It's a clear statement that bnei yeshiva must serve and that that is a good thing.
It is not a clear statement to that effect; it is in fact a clear statement of the opposite.
Correct. It shows subconsciously that you can be one or the other but not both.
I get what you're saying. But I still appreciate the video. Charedi kids being taught to show respect and solidarity with chayalim is a step in the right direction.
"chareidi employer"
thought that doesn't exist in slifkin land.
You gotta edit that out asap to "chareidi acquaintance" before other people see it!
This comment says a lot more about you than it does about me.
😘😘😘
While I completely agree with you, I don't think that the politicians are realistic. One cannot force an entire brainwashed sector to serve. Furthermore, you can speak to them with logic all you'd like, they will ultimately follow the gedoylim. Any politician who talks about shivyon banetel knows this but they make waves about it too score some some points. The only thing they can and should do is defund any institution that does not teach quality curriculums, and provide financial incentives to serve. Anything else just causes division and is not realistic.
Agreed, societal changes take time in small steps. Start with kittah alef that helping the national defence isn't such a bad thing (in addition to Rebbe Alter 'tapes'), and in 20 years things will be different.
Disagree. There is absolutely no way anyone can reason with them or expect change from within as they will follow the gedolim blindly no matter what. We all know this. We as a country cannot force it and definitely can't speak logic as this is driven by blind faith. The country therefore needs to act in it's own best interest and provide incentives to contributors and stop funding institutions that burden the system. All other talk (media and politicians) about horrible it is doesn't get anywhere and is divisive. That being said, I appreciate Nathan's posts as they a insightful to people who are not following with blind faith. As a frum person, it helps me feel comfortable with my non charedi identity. It's a lechatchila not a bidieved.
The only way that you get the government to stop funding the charedim is if charedim are out of the government. And the only way you make that happen is by talking about the problems.
I think that everyone is aware of the problem. However the real problem is that the charedi parties are viewed as the natural partners of the "right" and israel is shifting right. Likud is run by a bunch of corrupt kablanei kolot who would sell their mothers for power and the religious zionist parties support funding these institutions and somehow have no issue with these anti zionist parties. Then you have the center and center left who won't get into power as the country has shifted "right". The politicians from the "right" who speak about the need for equality end up voting with the charedim so they are all a bunch of talk and the politicians from the "left" know damn well that you can't force it but they talk about it too score points.
Agree - the statements made by that fellow Tzvi Fishman are simply sick and sickening. He should be declared a danger to the public welfare and be arrested as such.
NO. if they are indeed brainwashed, then cult deprogramming tactics are needed.
The IDF should also do some more of what it did with Modiin Ilit a few months ago. It should stop protecting Charedi areas where IDF soldiers are harassed (to the extent such realignments are local in nature and do impact other broader missions affecting other communities).
Seems to me that nothing short of the end of Chareidim as a hashkafa will really make you happy. Chareidim must join the army no psharos nothing to allow them to fulfill their religious obligations as they understand them. Even if they would find a derech to serve it would not be enough for you and this blog would still publish page after page of anti Chareidi propaganda
Even Yair Lapid spoke of giving exemptions from army service/national service to 18,000 students.
It should be very easy to determine which students are exceptional. I learned in the Mifal HaShas program when I was in Kollel. There is a monthly 3-hour exam with 25 questions, and many of the questions consist of several parts. If you get over 90, you receive a $100 bonus. The exam doesn't have your name on it, just your ID number, so there is no chance for any favoritism, of someone being given a higher grade than he really earned.
If a Torah scholar consistently gets over 90 on those exams, I think he's earned an exemption.
I dunno he is clearly taking money for learning, dependent on quantity (so no dodgy schar batoloh sevoro) and is acting completely contrary to halochoh.
The money is a מילגה, like a scholarship.
If universities already grant scholarships for promising students in all sorts of subjects, why can't the frum community give monetary incentives to devoted learners who clearly have a good head, and are utilizing their skills in learning Torah?
Because taking money for learning torah happens to be ossur. Now, there are dodgy loopholes based on sechar battoloh or subistance payments. But even the dodginess breaks down and they do not work when the payment received is directly linked to the amount of learning. That is clearly not sechar battoloh (it is sechar for each daf) and it has no link to substinance.
I am amazed you think what happens in universities is somehow relevant to halochoh.
Let Hesder guys have the same chance and you have a deal :)
And still that would not satisfy Rabbi Slifkin
Mifal HaShas has 4 tracks: 1. 20 daf Gemara, with Rashi and Tosfos
2. 30 daf Gemara, with Rashi and Tosfos
3. Orach Chaim/Yoreh Deah--10 daf a month, with Mishneh Berurah/Nekudos HaKesef
4. Even HaEzer/Choshen Mishpat--8 daf a month with Ketzos haChoshen.
Then there is the "Kollel Shas", which (in my opinion) is for super-Geonim: I think it's around 70 daf a month, Rashi and Tosfos! Someone who learns at that pace and gets over 90 on the exam deserves to be called someone that תורתו אומנותו, to all opinions.
Yes - Charedi (especially Litvish) "Hashkafa" has reached the point where it is a perversion of the Torah and Halacha. Any God fearing Torah learning Jew MUST stay away from it - in any way shape or form.
To bad it's not you or anyone else here on this blog that gets to make that decision
Every Jew makes that decision for himself. We are not catholic.
I don't think its fair to call what Natan writes "propoganda" Everything he writes has a logic behind it.
Wow, Slifkin. I am really saddened by the constant denunciations. It appears Chareidi hatred blinds you. This video's absolutely clear intent is to stand for the idea that a Yid can be BOTH a soldier and and a yeshiva bachur. IE that a ben yeshiva SHOULD absolutely serve. IE that EACH person should have both identities. NOT that each kid stands for society as a whole and that society as a whole should be split that way! The Chareidi haters are blinded and take every statement the worst possible way. They can't even see when someone agrees with them! They seem bound and determined to hate and see nothing good from Chareidim even when there is an absolutely clear statement of support for their own position that Chareidi boys must serve!
If that was the idea, they'd show the kids in full IDF clothing, holding a sefer.
Then you wouldn't know that the kids are chareidy. Clearly many readers saw the same message that J.D. saw.
exactly
🤡 Except the ספר would be על הגאולה ועל התמורה
You are missing the point. This is a subversive propaganda message, telling chareidim that being chareidi and IDF are compatible (which it is currently not). If he was in full IDF clothing you would just think he is a chardal kid, and the point would be lost.
I support much of your work, but you're wrong on this.
That's not what these costumes are implying, and you know it.
" a Yid can be BOTH a soldier and and a yeshiva bachur." do you know a single charedi Yid who does this?
I know more than one.
Not impressed. Also, they are saluting with the wrong hand.
Now that's the real offense.
As a member of the sector that serves, learns, prays, loses income, work time, and sleep, *I* find this both offensive and stupid. Frankly, the haredi community in Israel needs to tread lightly right now. They are not, to say the least endearing themselves to their fellow citizens or the rest of Am Yisael.
I don't think chareidim need your approval to make cute purim videos, Mrs Kim Jong Un.
Funny that you should say that - Rav Landau warned yeshiva students not to collect in non-charedi areas, precisely because the haredi community in Israel needs to tread lightly right now.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2270295/ahead-of-purim-rare-instructions-from-hagaon-harav-landau-to-yeshivah-bochurim.html
See also R' Dovid Yosef's advice that public merriment should be toned down this year:
https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/sahpvy
(Some of the comments are rather unfortunate.)
This has precedent in past times when Purim was overshadowed by tragedy and distress.
Yup, "...the accusations against us from those who hate religion and Talmidei Chachamim." Sounds accurate.
I will have to concede one thing: A right-wing TV host put up a picture of this, and the responses were rhapsodic.
Now you know who votes for Shas.
If Charedim were indeed brainwashed, deprogramming would work on them.
But the deprogramming bag of tricks only works on people caught in a cult, and doesn't work on Charedim. Because it isn't blind faith, it isn't a cult, and people are not brainwashed.
actually it is. it's blind faith and brainwashing. and a cult.
For example, if Gur's beliefs weren't cult-like then they'd have no issue with a split-off group. No issue with people trying to leave Gur. No attempts to excommunicate people and families who have left Gur or try to leave Gur - even when they still remain chassidish and even when they remain aligned with "classic Gur" teachings and communities. They wouldn't try to remove children from their parents who have left Gur for the other community. This has all the makings of a cult - and they are the LARGEST charedi group in Israel today.
How did the discussion turn to Gur?
The issue was Charedim, not Gur.
But the only way for you to 'prove' your point is by changing it the whole time. Because honesty does not fit with that worldview. As we have seen multiple times on this blog and in the comment section.
Gur aren't Charedim? news to me!
Scotch is liquid.
Ergo, all liquid is scotch.
Go make a Lechaim on your own pre-drunk scotch.
Do you understand what the words “for example” mean? It’s precisely the opposite of saying since Gur ate charedim then all charedim are Gur. 🤦🏻♂️
Maybe it's not blind faith, but just myopic.
Maybe it's not brainwashed, but conviction by propaganda.
Maybe it's not a cult, but superficially shares some characteristics as a cult.
Cult is too strong a word. It shouldn't be used.
So why doesn't deprogramming work?
Deprogramming only works against cult brainwashing, not to change people's beliefs. And it doesn't work to reverse Baalei Teshuva, as has been shown multiple times.
Where was this "shown multiple times"?
You write 'offensive' as though you believed that was a bad thing.
Funny that the history of this blog tells me that you don't usually think so.
I do not believe that one should not make valid criticisms merely because the target of those criticisms is offended.
So only criticisms are ok if they are offensive.
Otherwise, offensive is a bad thing.
Got it.
Where do you make up this Shulchan Aruch? How are people supposed to know these differences?
No, criticisms are only okay if they are valid. The fact that someone is offended because they have been called out for wrong behavior is not reason not to call out wrong behavior.
So when you mentioned the offensiveness, you were really chasing a red herring. The claim is either right or wrong, something for which you don't have the training to discern, but you focused on the irrelevant 'offensive' claim.
I'm not able to discern whether it's wrong to avoid IDF service?
Yes.
Funnily enough, Halachic decisions are only discernible to those who invest the effort necessary to acquire the 48 Kinyanei Hatorah. Otherwise, it is just some ignorant brain flatulence. Anti-vaxxers in the Torah realm. Read some Google articles, sit in on a class somewhere, and spout inanities.
I think only a very 'special' type of outlook and mindset can take a cute video of three smiley (obviously sefardi) little kids and highlight this as representative of the evil Haredim. You are an intelligent person, Natan, why would you stoop to such childish, boorish and petty behavior? This is not even worthy of a fifth grade spat.
Regarding the remarks by "the Rabbi of the Peleg faction who declared that he’d rather have his children and grandchildren murdered by Hamas than join the IDF and risk becoming secular," he's probably right that his children and grandchildren would "risk" becoming secular were they drafted.
Likely, they almost surely would become secular.
That is because, once outside of the cult, they would see through the brainwashing they were brought up with and throw away their Yiddishkeit entirely, thinking that just as they were lied to about many aspects of society outside their cult, so too were they lied to about Torah m'Sinai, etc.
It's not logical, but that's how people are.
It speaks to the weakness of haredi culture, at least as to its most extreme and sheltered adherents.
Indeed. That's the little discussed part of the article by Tamir Granot mentioned a few posts ago. It would seem that the charedi dropout rate WITHOUT army service is more or less the same as the National Religious drop-out rate (which is about half prior to IDF service and the other half during IDF service). This is HUGE.
correction - Elchanan Nir, not Tamir Granot
>" the charedi dropout rate WITHOUT army service is more or less the same as the National Religious drop-out rate"
As much as I wish this were true, it's factually false. Last I checked the statistics (a few months ago, based on statistics from the Israeli gov), the difference in drop-out rate between the groups is huge. For chareidim, drop-out rate is less than 5%, for dati leumi, it's around 30%
There is no truth to that statement regarding charedi dropouts.
Really? He wrote that he received it from the most up to date study of this matter
I have not read any statistics on drop-out rates. Do those statistics explain how they were derived? Offhand, it seems to me that it would be very difficult to get accurate (or even approximate) valid numbers from the Charedi world. How many families would respond, or would respond truthfully (wouldn't there be an attempt to downplay any numbers to uplift the opinion of their society?).
Actually, Joe, the truth as to which community addresses this problem squarely is precisely the opposite. In the Haredi world, a child going off the Derech is traumatic, and both the child and the extended family are candidates for therapy. Entire organizations have sprouted in the last few years to try and combat the problem, the community has contributed major funding to help alleviate the pain, and efforts are invested in preventative measures.
In contrast, in both the MO and RZ orbits, a kid who goes off the Derech is ho hum and life goes on. These kids are by and large successful. In Israel they join the Army, just as they were taught, take trips afterwards to Peru and Madagascar, and become high-powered professionals. In the USA they go to the Ivy League, just as their parents hoped. Well, they may not be too observant, but they do come home for Shabbos meals with their girlfriends, and they display 'Stand With Israel' or 'ביחד ננצח' bumper stickers, so it's not too bad.
Interesting comments, Tzvi. I used to live in the charedi world. It almost made me go "off the derech" (probably not, but I wasn't far from there). B"H, I found that I could still be a Torah believing Jew in the dati leumi world. I have known a number of charedi Jews who either went off the derech completely or became "tuna begels" (I hope I remembered that phrase correctly).
I would be curious to know what therapy means in the charedi world. Not that the information would mean much to me or do much for me; I deal well with computers and science; I really know nothing about psychology and people.
Uhh, Shlomo. The dropout rate from Yiddishkeit from those in the religious Zionist sector is alarmingly high, according to even the most liberal assessments. And in that case, it is often the best and brightest who are dropping out, while in ultra-orthodox society nearly every dropout is attributed to personal trauma and/or related familial and social problems, not a new and enhanced intellectual worldview.
True.
"In ultra-orthodox society nearly every dropout is attributed to personal trauma and/or related familial and social problems, not a new and enhanced intellectual worldview."
But I was referring to the REAL reason many leave, not the reason their society attributes it to. And the real reasons are often far more complex than what haredi society - - and for that matter Dati Leumi society - - attributes it to.
That's rubbish. The latest studies show that the dropout rate from the RZ sector and the charedi sector are similar. and with the charedim it doesn't even involve IDF service! it's from within the charedi "bubble" itself.
This is a bizarre debate. Claims and counter claims, and no one offering links to evidence.
the video is not offensive.
the reality that it doesnt reflect, is.
choose your targets carefully, Natan.
Shtender generals.
Definite improvement over the "ban" against soldier costumes (a decade ago):
"עקב גזירת השמד לא להתחפש לחיילים"
https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/137275