I just came from a book launch for a biography of a well known Rosh Yeshiva from the Dati Leumi world (who I won't name here). Several of his students spoke who are themselves today Roshei Yeshiva or well known Rabbis and educators.
One of the questions was about the many talks the Rosh Yeshiva used to give about Chilul HaShem, and what he would see as the most tragic Chilulim Hashem today. The Rav that answered the question said that in his mind, the biggest Chilul HaShem today is the hundreds of thousands of people who use Torah as an excuse to avoid serving in the army, and as a result are not only disregarding their obligations as Jews, but are causing Israeli society to hate Torah as they see it as an excuse to avoid responsibilities and not as a tool to bring Kedusha into the world.
Today unfortunately Torah became the "Avodah Zarah" of our times. Using Torah to try and get out of protecting society while letting others carry the burden and their families having to suffer - while you hide under the shtender.
Israel really, really does NOT need charedim to draft, any more than it needs all the American Jews to immigrate and draft. It definitely doesn't need the 18-21 year old chareidim, the ones who need to be in yeshiva.
The army can totally adequately defend the nation without the chareidim, but it cannot engage in perpetual war with all its neighbors even with chareidim, which is the scenario that the "army needs chareidim" argument is based on. And to the extent that the army "needs" chareidim, there are thousands of post yeshiva chareidim who are willing to serve if the army accepts them, which the army idiotically refused.
The fact that the anti-Torah seculars WANT yeshiva-age chareidim in the army is not a reason for chareidim to acquiesce and destroy their yeshivos, which are the ones providing the merit for the success of the army in the first place.
My sons (men in their 30's, each with a handful of kids) were told to expect to be called for 100 days(!!) of miluim next year.
It wouldn't be necessary if the army had more trained combat soldiers. We have a nephew who came from the US several years ago specifically to draft, and then made Aliya. He'll also be doing 100 days miluim this year.
So depends on what you call a shortage..
The army is calling them because it needs trained combat soldiers. Fully training a combat soldier takes about 18 months. Longer for special units. Unfortuanetly, the 18-21 year olds are the most suited for combat roles
You should complain to the army, not to the chareidim. And don't be delusional, even if the army had all the chareidim it wanted, it would still deploy itself to the max.
This comment doesn't respond to any of the points made in the piece, it only makes ad hominem attacks and appeals to emotion. I wish substack had the ability to downvote negative value comments like this.
R' Slifkin, you should definitely consider deleting comments like this, especially if they somehow appear at the top. It makes the blog much less interesting for people who want to have conversations with substance
I agree, Slifkin should definitely censor all criticism of himself to show how weak his "arguments" are. The blog is much more interesting when he has no pushback, and like 5 sycophantic comments from his yes-men.
Obviously you didn't understand my point. The army can totally defend the country without chareidim. But it cannot win an endless war in Gaza, with no end objective, even with chareidim. And it certainly cannot engage in an endless war with the laundry list of all threats, even with chareidim. It has nothing to do with whether the war was imposed on us. Yet this is the argument people use for why the army needs chareidim.
Your skepticism of Nachum's knowledge of the rhetorical imperatives of a ben Torah is no argument in regards to the parameters of the propriety of speech.
It makes it sound that you actually believe that this is the way a ben Torah speaks.
So when people talk about needing chareidim for dealing with threats from Gaza, West Bank, Israeli Arabs, Hezbollah, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt, they're not being serious? Glad to know.
Ah, the risks of never properly acquiring reading comprehension skills, ladies and gents. Along with ignorance of history, facts, and all sorts of other things, right up to ignorance of what one *wrote oneself*.
"which are the ones providing the merit for the success of the army in the first place."
Absolutely repulsive to try to take the credit from the soldiers out sacrificing that will be dealing with the related disabilities the rest of their lives and give it to a bunch of self-serving dudes sitting on their asses. I'm not sure what religion you practice but it seems like it's the cult of the Charedi rabbi.
Of course, you maintain your anonymity with your disgusting and potentially harmful comments.
From a secular perspective, the sacrifice is worthless. From a secular perspective, the Zionists stole the land and displaced and massacred hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, and continue to inflict suffering on them. From a secular perspective, the Zionists are no more than a band of thieves and murderers, no better than Hamas, and if fact worse because they are the oppressors. It is no mystery why most of the world views the Zionists this way. It is only with the Torah that Jews have moral superiority in this struggle, and the sacrifice attains meaning.
There is no monolith of secular perspectives because unlike the Charedi world they aren't designed on the authoritarian cult model euphemistically called, "daas Torah". I know of secular people across the political spectrum.
You seem to claim that the Charedi world is opposed to the war and Israel's military actions so they should be using their power in the government to end these wars and end conscription for everyone, not just their community. If god and the Torah protects all of Israel they should be able to move to an all-volunteer army but I've not heard of any Charedi leadership calling for an end of military obligations, please point me to sources if this is incorrect.
If the Charedim object to the mission of the military why don't they use the conscientious objector laws to claim exemption for their military service?
There is extensive Torah being learned by Hesder Yeshiva students as well, I've never seen a Jewish text that states that only the Torah learning of military age Charedi men matters.
Also, a book doesn't confer morality on a situation. Morality is based on a relationship between humans and is established on that basis. The book you quote of for morality allows polygamy, slavery, death penalty, and many more things that are contrary to morality but you choose to redefine them as moral because the book includes them.
The secular perspective on this issue is far more monolithic than the chareidi one.
You have very poor reading comprehension. I never claimed the chareidi world was opposed to the war, I can't see how any intelligent person could have read that into my words. I said the opposite, that from a secular perspective it is unjustified, as is the occupation, as is the entire Zionist project. It is the Torah that confers morality upon the occupation.
It's very nice that the Hesder Yeshiva students are learning Torah, the chareidim disagree with their approach, for good reason.
Books don't confer morality, God does. All the things you mentioned are eminently moral, more moral than you will ever be if you lived a thousand lifetimes.
The secular perspective is far less unified than you might think. My circle of close friends, all goyim (an atheist Bernie Bro, a non-observant Muslim, and a Christian) except me, support Israel. They understand that Israel shares their values, and they know the real history that you seem to deny when you spread the lie of Zionists of being thieves and murderers.
It's wonderful that your friends are going against the grain and accept the secular Zionist narrative. If I was secular, I certainly wouldn't. But since I believe the Torah, the narrative is not all too necessary or relevant, since Hashem gave the land to the Jewish people.
You write " the army ...idiotically refused" to accept Charedim.
Then you write " the anti-Torah seculars WANT yeshiva-age chareidim in the army"
While not completely contradictory, it does appear just a bit inconsistent. Please elaborate and back up your insights with facts.
I'll also note that you are incorrect, or at least imprecise, when you write that the army rejected Charedi recruits. You should have written that they rejected some, and accepted some. You neither have explained why the army rejected some, nor have you explained why the army accepted others.
" totally adequately"
A rather poor juxtaposition of words. Why would you modify "adequately" with "totally"? It's weird! You should be aware that an adequate defense is nothing to sing about. I prefer a מדרין defense. We're dealing with Jewish lives; we should not be satisfied with mere adequacy.
Why do they "need" to be in the army? Why do they need to be in Israel? Why do any Jews need to be in Israel? Why do Jews need to exist? Why does Rob Williger need to post stupid comments?
Thanks for clearing this up, R' Slifkin. I saw this piece, but of course "they rejected all the charedim anyway!" has been a common trope among the apologists for a few weeks at least by now. It seemed off and now I know why.
(Also, just because a man is a Labor politician is no reason to believe him. *All* Israeli political parties, with the possible exception of the far right, have reasons to flatter the charedim.)
That 32% Tel Aviv number also has to be off. No one in Israel "chooses" not to serve. Even committed pacifists are thrown in the brig if they refuse to serve. Everyone has to get an exemption. Are some upper-crust Tel Avivians better skilled at getting them? I imagine. But if you take the average number of exemptions country-wide, add all the charedim, Arabs, and religious women living in Tel Aviv, you'd probably get close to 20% or so if not more. So 32% isn't that wild. In addition to the factors R' Slifkin said.
By the way, in Israel, "charedi" is legally defined as someone who went to a charedi school, which includes Shas and Chabad schools that have lots of non-charedim. There's a practical purpose for this, because those schools *do* provide sub-standard educations which then have to be remedied one way or another, but it tends to skew other statistics as well.
Let me just say this: We don't have to be told that the Left will try any tactic and use any excuse to bring down a right-wing (especially a Bibi-led) government. They've been doing this since Begin first won, and have only been getting crazier since 2020 and especially since October 7. And many of them are of course insincere. For example, some of them attack Bibi for not being harsh *enough* on Hamas when they themselves have been pushing- and still push!- for us to be super-nice to Hamas. And the same goes with their calls to enlist the charedim, something they probably don't really care about or even don't want.
But that doesn't mean that all their claims are *wrong*: Bibi's got plenty of negatives, even if he's not the devil/crook they make him out to be, and it's probably time for him to go. (The problems are there are few to replace him, and none among his actual opponents, and of course that we're in the middle of a war.) Obviously the leadership dealt with Hamas stupidly all these years. And obviously charedim should be serving and working. The fact that the hard right (not parts of the Likud, but more ideological than that), who know full well that everything is a tactic and *don't* want to bring down Bibi, are calling for that should be proof. They're not all manipulated dupes, after all. (Some can be sometimes. But not all.)
There is an Orthodox rav in NY that told his kehila this past shabbos that the charedi rabbi's in Israel are the Miraglim. They are "anshei sheim" that are committing a grave sin.
There is are several Orthodox ravs in NY that told their kehilos on many shabbosim that the Zionist rabbis are the adas Korach of this generation. That they are kofrim and meisisim.
These Rabbis who identify themselves as Orthodox, while promoting hatred are seriously misguided, but I would not refer to them as Kofrim, just ignorant.
The קרח of our generation is "them". It's always "them". It's never "us". Not even a little. I'm not sure how we can derive any מוסר from תנ"ך if we're always pointing fingers.
The מרגלים of our generation is "them". It's always "them". It's never "us". Not even a little. I'm not sure how we can derive any מוסר from תנ"ך if we're always pointing fingers.
Please re-read my comment and respond again with some elaboration.
To clarify, I lament the phenomenon of contemporary דרשות on קרח and the מרגלים which focus on the faults of others, and which don't offer a message of introspection. It doesn't mean that those דרשות are wrong, or the criticism is off base. It means that such דרשות offer little in the way of edification.
I thought we got rid of the ones that hate you, as you required to be signed up to post. I see them back. Did you Change the policy OR they could not "hold out" not calling you names trying to degrade you and paid up to post??
Take this jerk Eli just now, for what purpose is he posting his rant? There is no substance in what he wrote, nor anything intelligent. Why do we ALL have to read through his garbage?
If someone has something to argue, for or against, that is okay as long as it is intelligent[. Please explain, why let in his rant and for what purpose. At the end you still answer him, I cant wrap my brain around why you did that - do you think it is going to change his mind?
Let me ask you, If you walk by graffiti scribbled on a wall, do you take out a can of spray paint the same color and answer it?.
Because he is an idiot who can't control himself. He said last post that it wastes too much of his time to respond to all the comments (That's his excuse. The real reason is to censor all criticism, which he has no response to.) so he blocks all comments like a coward. Just stop responding, fool! It would be much better for you!
Reb Hirsch (I think beginning of ki seitzei, I'll get the exact mareh makom later) makes the point that when it comes to klal yisroel, it's not about numbers. It's about if we're worthy. Hashem can win a war with a lot less people
We need to do teshuva, all on our own levels and with our own situations and I speak for myself alone but that's really what we need
Given the level of worthiness of the nation, we do indeed need more numbers. And we need the existing needed numbers to be made up from across the entire population.
Yes, they will, because that is how Hashem's world works. Plus, again, it's not just about more numbers, it's also about how the existing numbers should be distributed.
There are a number of ways that one can get closer to Hashem. Teshuva, remorse and repentance, is a traditional form of communion. That’s the common meaning of teshuva. And if you need to impose a guilt trip on yourself, just scream teshuva for all your self-created, non-sensical halachic indiscretions.
But if you really want to get closer to Hashem, put your Gemara aside and try studying Hashem’s vocabulary — mathematics, his vocabulary with which we try to understand his universe. That is the real לשן קדש.
It’s not a new way of life, it was discovered in 17th century C.E. and the foundational elements of modern mathematical differential calculus have been noted in Egyptian 18th century B.C.E. calculations.
It seems they grasped Hashem’s holy vocabulary a lot better than your Gedolim did.
The part of Liel Liebowitz's article that Rabbi Slifkin didn't address here (the "second lie", if you will), is that the government is supposedly fighting this war in a way that it can win.
Douglas Murray has said repeatedly, "Israel is never allowed to win a war", because of international pressure to never completely finish off the enemy. But there are many moral constraints that Israel is imposing on itself, to make the war essentially unwinnable. First, they said that only those Gazans who are active members of Hamas or Islamic Jihad are legitimate targets. Now today they said that the Gazan police force (also Hamas members) are no longer legitimate targets. Eventually, we'll reach the point where we'll be constrained that only if a Gazan is actively trying to kill an Israeli soldier, is he to be considered a combatant and a legitimate target.
That's kind of why I mentioned this part of Liebowitz's article, even though Rabbi Slifkin didn't want to divert the discussion here to that argument.
I remember at the beginning of the war, that people were sending food packages to the soldiers. One soldier was holding a package of machine matzo. He said, "I hope we won't be in Gaza that long." We thought we'd wrap this thing up way before Pesach. Now, we're hearing that we'll have to be in Gaza for years.
One big problem is that even the Israeli "Right" allows its actions to be dictated by unelected judges and "legal advisors" way out of line with what their actual legal authority is.
Gazans aren't Israeli citizens; ergo, the Attorney General has no right to dictate what their supposed "rights" are.
The fact that charedim have added demands does not absolve them of guilt for not sharing the national burden. It would signify a deep flaw in charedi society if they make themselves so unsuited to army service, and so uninterested in figuring out a way to make it work, that everyone else has to instead increase the length of time that they spend in service and reserve duty. And it would mean that the charedim have a deep debt to the rest of Israeli society, rather than be treated as privileged people who should be funded by the rest of society. It would also mean that charedi society has a responsibility to change such that they can share the responsibility of national defense.
Debt to the rest of society? Don't make me laugh! The chareidim are the ones taking on the burden of keeping the Torah, providing the merit for the seculars to exist in the Land which yearns to spit them out for all their sins. Wicked people like yourself wouldn't be able to live there without the chareidim!
Never before have there been 200,000 missiles pointing at Israel. The "worse threats" consisted of a much smaller number of tanks and airplanes, which could be handled much more quickly by a much smaller number of troops (if properly equipped and directed).
Interesting then that for 70 years or so post the state being declared besides the many years before the state was declared it was the massive number of non-religious and very few religious who brought us the merit of the state being declared and successful.
If you contend that it was the few religious in whose merits the state was declared then please explain why now when we have many more religious people we i.e Israel is in the mess we are in ?
"The chareidim are the ones taking on the burden of keeping the Torah,"
You shouldn't use the word "burden" in the context of soldiers and their struggling families. And not all of them have taken on Torah study as a real heavy burden. More likely it's a day job and hobby. But a burden? A select few.
"providing the merit for the seculars to exist in the Land which yearns to spit them out for all their sins."
Here's the ספרא:
ולא תקיא אתכם הארץ בטמאכם אותה ארץ ישראל אינה כשאר כל הארץ, אינה מקיימת בעלי עוברי עבירות.
The ספרא does not provide the slightest hint that Torah study of some individuals inoculates the sinners from being expectorated from the land. Please provide a classic source for your חידוש. Even the sources that discuss Torah study as protection, do not discuss protection from being expelled by a land who can't tolerate sinners.
>>charedim have a deep debt to the rest of Israeli society, rather than be treated as privileged people.
You sound like a broken record.
I have pointed out to you a few times that the opposite is true. You blocked comments on a few posts and you already forgot it all?
A quick summary (for more see previous threads):
The core of today's crisis is demographic. We can't annex Gaza and make everyone citizens because there aren't enough Jews in Israel.
This was recognized as the core issue since the beginning of the Zionist project. Unfortunately, the only ones who put all their effort in having the largest families possible and growing as fast as possible were the Charedim.
Had the rest of the country grown as fast as the Charedim we would have over 50 million Jews in Israel today. Even 18 million would be enough to avert the current crisis.
The non-Charedim caused this crisis. Unfortunately, they don't seem to recognize this. They willing blind themselves to the fact that this is a demographic crisis.
Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention.
As I guess you were intimating, it is exactly for reasons like this that I feel it is so important to get our priorities right.
Imagine if it would be utterly clear to everyone that the real long-term solution is demographic. Don't you think the IDF would figure out a way to give soldiers flexibility to be home at the right times of the month (if not once a month at least every other month)?
And, if the issue is the hardship of caring for the children, don't you think the government and society would make arrangements for this if they recognized this as the top priority of the country in the long-term? Perhaps they would even give some sort of paternity leave from the army for those who have multiple young children if they can't come up with any other solution. (Perhaps I am radical on this, but I believe that the money spent on Dimona would have been much better spent on increasing the growth-rate of Jews in Israel. If we had 20-50 million Jews in Israel today, I think the country would be far more secure than it is currently.)
(And yes, I do agree with you that Charedi society should do more to help out at least on this front, though reading the posts here I could understand that they would be afraid of spending time with people who may consider them worse than Hamas. If I would live in Israel and understand the culture, perhaps I would make this my life's mission.)
I think the main thing is to constantly reiterate that this is the main long-term solution. If you know anyone who has a voice, please convey this message to them.
To me this is not just a practical issue, it is the core ideological battle between us and the Arabs. Golda Meir famously said, "We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us". (In contrast, Arafat famously said ‘the wombs of Palestinian women are the greatest weapon of Palestine', i.e., the purpose of bearing a child is as a weapon. And Yahya Sinwar said…) I believe that the main thing is to prove to the world that we love our own children more than the Arabs hate us. The entire world is looking at us to show that the chosen nation will vanquish the Arab hatred specifically through their love of life. The want to see that love of life can vanquish hatred. That is the real battle here. This isn't just another war. In a practical sense this will hopefully be accomplished when we overwhelm the Arabs demographically through a growth rate which is unmatched in the civilized world. That is when the entire civilized world will look at us with a sense of admiration and will come to beg us for advice on how to repair their own society which has become suicidal due to its low fertility.
I wonder if this message is something that is emphasized often in your community. In your community who is considered a greater hero, a soldier who did heroic acts or a mother (or father) of a large family?
1- You don't understand how war works, if you think the Chayyalim can be sent home monthly on an individual schedule. ..I was being facetious, but being away for so long is taking a toll on many families. Are you available to help? ("The government" can't do everything).
2- No one considers Hareidim worse than Hamas, see my response to CraftyYid from July 3, but that doesn't mean we're not annoyed
3- Your concluding question would be like asking, which is more important Shabbat or Kashrut? It doesn't work like that.. We have lots of obligations, and when they compete, we have to deal with them as best we can
> You don't understand how war works, if you think the Chayyalim can be sent home monthly on an individual schedule.
I understand it is extremely complicated. That was why I found it necessary to add the parentheses right after that (and I added at least every other month). However, precisely because it is so complicated the statement that would be made through such a policy would be all the more effective, both strategically (to show that the core of the crisis is demographic) and as a value statement, to proclaim to the entire world that we value life over death, even the death of our mortal enemies.
> Are you available to help? ("The government" can't do everything).
I wrote that I don't live in Israel, and if I would, perhaps I would make this my life's mission.
I currently live in the U.S and have a large family ka"h. Should I leave my own wife and family?
If you would like to convince me to move to Israel (in a private conversation, I guess) I am open to hearing from you. Additionally, if you have a suggestion as to how I can help from over the seas, please inform me.
Perhaps the main reason I was always quite apprehensive about moving to Israel is due to all the infighting in frum society. It breaks my heart to read all the finger-pointing; the Charedim did this and the datiim did that. I don't understand why everyone can't just think for themselves, learn to take the best from all societies and stop with all the immature and stupid name calling? It seems that Israeli society is structured this way, and it makes me very nervous about raising my children there.
I live in Lakewood, and I strongly disagree with just about every public statement by the local Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva (including the one highlighted by the OP in his most recent post, and not just for the reasons he gave). I am acquainted with many Talmidei Chachamim who have similar feelings. But so what? We just laugh at all of it, and whenever an opportunity arises to bring about change, we grab it.
If I would move to Israel, I assume I would send my children to Charedi mosdos, for a few reasons, one of them highlighted here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/two-different-torahs/comment/59073707?utm_campaign=comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=substack&utm_content=comment. At the same time, I would try to train them to think for themselves. I understand that is hard in Charedi society (which is why I am still apprehensive), but I believe it is getting easier over time. Hopefully sometime soon, or at least in in another generation or 2, it will be possible to have a Lakewood-style society in Israel.
If you would like to change my mind on any of this, please go ahead.
> No one considers Hareidim worse than Hamas, see my response to CraftyYid from July 3
I read that comment, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the OP justified himself for keeping such comments on his blog. I hope you are right that the OP is an extreme outlier.
> Your concluding question would be like asking, which is more important Shabbat or Kashrut?
I don't think you understand human psychology. There is a reason why it is accepted to honor heroes.
Besides, this is all in the context of responding to the OP who wrote horrible words about Charedim, while in my opinion in the long-term they are the real saviors of the country (despite their very real problems). Unfortunately, this kind of talk has very real consequences, as it deflects from addressing the real long-term crisis. It sends a message that having large families is not that essential.
Non-Charedim should have larger families. (It should be noted that secular Israelis have larger families on the average, compared to the rest of the Western world.)
And Charedim should fulfill the מצות they neglect.
"They willing blind themselves to the fact that this is a demographic crisis."
Not quite. They often point to the demographic crisis (assuming it exists) as reason for rushing a deal with the Arabs. As a matter of national security, the gov't should enact policies to encourage fertility among the secular.
>And Charedim should fulfill the מצות they neglect.
פשיטא, מאי קמ"ל?! (See my recent comment to Chana Rachel)
>Not quite. They often point to the demographic crisis (assuming it exists) You seem to be referring to a different demographic crisis than I was.
You are discussing a future demographic crisis. That doesn't seem to be such a concern currently. The Charedim have already averted it ב"ה, both through their own actions and through serving as an example for the rest of the country. (Do you really think it is a coincidence that the only modern country with a TFR above replacement level is the country that has a significant percentage of Charedim- the only society in the modern world that manages to maintain a TFR above 4?). I guess if the OP succeeds in kicking out the Charedim as he suggested at the end of this post https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim?utm_campaign=comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=substack&utm_content=post, this concern will return.
I was referring to the current demographic crisis, which is the root of the current crisis, as I explained here and in earlier threads.
"Do you really think it is a coincidence that the only modern country with a TFR above replacement level is the country that has a significant percentage of Charedim- the only society in the modern world that manages to maintain a TFR above 4?"
What about all the other people who feel the same way? Do they all have a problem, too? Or maybe, just maybe, we have a legitimate reason to be upset? Do you have children in the army?
Savta, you are not obsessed. You might be very bitter. You might even hate chareidim more than Hamas. But obsession is something else.
Obsession is having a website dedicated to attacking chareidim, with articles about them almost daily. Obsession is having thousands of such articles on said website over 15 years. Obsession is having your entire facebook feed dedicated to chareidim. Obsession is when Yom Hatzmaut is about chareidim, Yom Hazikaron is about chareidim, Purim costumes are about chareidim, somebody with purple hair reminds you of chareidim, dropping your luggage reminds you of chareidim, shlissel challah reminds you of chareidim, self-driving cars remind you of chareidim, and all of these prompt articles on your website dedicated to chareidim...
Just admit it, Slifkin is a very, very sick man, and should check himself into the nearest psychiatric facility immediately.
Savta, I understand you very well. I don't think you hate chareidim the same way Slifkin does. And you're definitely not obsessed. Having a heavy heart does not equal obsession. Slifkin does not have a heavy heart, except in the context of ויכבד לב פרעה, but is obsessed to the point of insanity, and would benefit from intense psychiatric treatment.
You may not realize this, being a member of a privileged class and all, but the average Israeli is thinking (or trying not think) about the combat his kids will face from the moment they're born.
By offical Israeli statistics, there are 1.3 million Charedim living in the country. There are a few hundred thousand living in the USA, Canada and UK who fully identify with the values and priorities of Israeli Charedim.
And yet UTJ's share of the vote never seems to go up.
In any event, it's not just elections. About 40% of Israeli Jews call themselves "secular" and a bit under that "traditional". Those are slippery definitions, but neither of them are charedi. (Although a lot of Shas' voters are "traditional.") That leaves just over 20% religious, and there are far more dati leumi Jews than charedim. Which means charedim can't be 18%.
The funny thing is, suppose it's true that I have PTSD. So what? It wouldn't mean that this post's points are not correct - that Liebowitz didn't misunderstand the Knesset report!
Natan, I'm waiting for you to address this very important video on http://vayakhel.com for the real reason the chareidim will never join the IDF. (Hint: it has nothing to do with learning Torah.)
Please summarize the video for those who can't be bothered to tolerate the long, tortoise paced discussion. Despite your frequently linking of the video, I don't think it offers much insight or illumination.
"Please summarize the video for those who can't be bothered to tolerate the long, tortoise paced discussion."
Then you write:
"Despite your frequently linking of the video, I don't think it offers much insight or illumination."
How do you know whether it offers much insight or illumination if you can't be bothered to tolerate a long, tortoise paced discussion?
Those who have the patience to watch it will be very enlightened as to what is driving Chareidim, and why they will never, ever join the IDF. If you really want to know why a very large segment of Israel will never serve, watch this video. HINT: It has nothing to do with learning Torah. The excuse of learning Torah is a huge bluff.
Eli, I don't know if you're Jewish or whether you care about Jewish sources, but if so, I'd suggest you review the halachos of Ona'as Devorim and then let us know how you'd justify posting such things about a known individual.
(Shower Music et al, please let Eli answer for himself. You are hopelessly juvenile and cruel; perhaps Eli is not. Maybe he's merely misguided, rather than warped, like you are. Thanks!)
Shlomo, did you review the laws of Onaas Devarim before deciding that you are permitted to call somebody "hopelessly juvenile and cruel" and "warped"? Oh, what's that you say? The laws don't apply to you? You have dispensation to do whatever you want? And what about Slifkin, much worse, who does onaas Devarim to communities of tens of thousands, ignoring the laws of Onaas Devarim and Lashon Hara? I'm sure you have endless excuses for him also, hmmmmmmm?
I understand exactly what Onaas Devarim is. It is any criticism of Shlomo's favored people, but never applies to the Onaas Devarim that Shlomo himself or his friends partake in, for reasons that he refuses to explain (because he cannot.)
I mean, you can say that, but it doesn't mean a whole lot. For better or for worse, Rabbi Slifkin has chosen to spending time writing about issues he cares about, while juggling a full time job and being a father and husband. If this is somehow impacting his own personal life, it is beyond us to know.
There are people who are currently suffering, and will suffer from PTSD. You mock and belittle the concept of PTSD, and you show no sympathy to those of your brethren who truly suffer from PTSD.
הפורש מדרכי ציבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללם לא נכנס בצרתם וכו' אין לו חלק לעולם הבא.
Interesting post.
I just came from a book launch for a biography of a well known Rosh Yeshiva from the Dati Leumi world (who I won't name here). Several of his students spoke who are themselves today Roshei Yeshiva or well known Rabbis and educators.
One of the questions was about the many talks the Rosh Yeshiva used to give about Chilul HaShem, and what he would see as the most tragic Chilulim Hashem today. The Rav that answered the question said that in his mind, the biggest Chilul HaShem today is the hundreds of thousands of people who use Torah as an excuse to avoid serving in the army, and as a result are not only disregarding their obligations as Jews, but are causing Israeli society to hate Torah as they see it as an excuse to avoid responsibilities and not as a tool to bring Kedusha into the world.
Today unfortunately Torah became the "Avodah Zarah" of our times. Using Torah to try and get out of protecting society while letting others carry the burden and their families having to suffer - while you hide under the shtender.
How sad is it what they did to the holy Torah.
Don’t forget not working for a living and living off the earnings of others which is genuine theft
This post is stupid.
Israel really, really does NOT need charedim to draft, any more than it needs all the American Jews to immigrate and draft. It definitely doesn't need the 18-21 year old chareidim, the ones who need to be in yeshiva.
The army can totally adequately defend the nation without the chareidim, but it cannot engage in perpetual war with all its neighbors even with chareidim, which is the scenario that the "army needs chareidim" argument is based on. And to the extent that the army "needs" chareidim, there are thousands of post yeshiva chareidim who are willing to serve if the army accepts them, which the army idiotically refused.
The fact that the anti-Torah seculars WANT yeshiva-age chareidim in the army is not a reason for chareidim to acquiesce and destroy their yeshivos, which are the ones providing the merit for the success of the army in the first place.
Amazing how you managed not to grasp anything I wrote.
Amazing how you wrote hundreds of words without anything of substance.
My sons (men in their 30's, each with a handful of kids) were told to expect to be called for 100 days(!!) of miluim next year.
It wouldn't be necessary if the army had more trained combat soldiers. We have a nephew who came from the US several years ago specifically to draft, and then made Aliya. He'll also be doing 100 days miluim this year.
So depends on what you call a shortage..
The army is calling them because it needs trained combat soldiers. Fully training a combat soldier takes about 18 months. Longer for special units. Unfortuanetly, the 18-21 year olds are the most suited for combat roles
You should complain to the army, not to the chareidim. And don't be delusional, even if the army had all the chareidim it wanted, it would still deploy itself to the max.
Believe it or not, most Israelis *want* to serve and see it as a duty and mitzvah. They have no reason to complain to charedim.
The army deploys because it *has* to. I know you anti-Zionist think everything is our fault, but that sort of sickness can't be helped.
Ah, so then a draft is not necessary. If they have no reason to complain, they are doing an awful lot of it.
Of course the army thinks it has to deploy itself to the max to accomplish unreachable, undefinable objectives.
And you are such an expert because you serve on the General Staff? What's your rank? What department do you lead?
And you? Who gave you such expertise?
This comment doesn't respond to any of the points made in the piece, it only makes ad hominem attacks and appeals to emotion. I wish substack had the ability to downvote negative value comments like this.
R' Slifkin, you should definitely consider deleting comments like this, especially if they somehow appear at the top. It makes the blog much less interesting for people who want to have conversations with substance
I agree, Slifkin should definitely censor all criticism of himself to show how weak his "arguments" are. The blog is much more interesting when he has no pushback, and like 5 sycophantic comments from his yes-men.
Obviously you didn't understand my point. The army can totally defend the country without chareidim. But it cannot win an endless war in Gaza, with no end objective, even with chareidim. And it certainly cannot engage in an endless war with the laundry list of all threats, even with chareidim. It has nothing to do with whether the war was imposed on us. Yet this is the argument people use for why the army needs chareidim.
No, it's not the argument that people use. You didn't even read the post.
In this post, there is no argument except "war is difficult". Which is not an argument that the army needs chareidim.
Clearly you have no reading comprehension.
"This post is stupid" is not how a ben Torah begins a response.
I doubt you know much about what a ben Torah should or shouldn't do.
Says someone who is undoubtedly at this moment dissecting a Ketzotz.
Your skepticism of Nachum's knowledge of the rhetorical imperatives of a ben Torah is no argument in regards to the parameters of the propriety of speech.
It makes it sound that you actually believe that this is the way a ben Torah speaks.
And here we see where the charedi apologists tip over completely into the anti-Zionist rhetoric of the fringe Left.
"it cannot engage in perpetual war with all its neighbors"
See what he did there?
Here are a couple of historical facts:
-Israel has not fought a war with *any* of its neighbors since 1973. Israel has even signed peace treaties with some of them.
-Israel has never chosen to fight a war with any of its neighbors. It has *always* been attacked first.
But these people will try anything.
So when people talk about needing chareidim for dealing with threats from Gaza, West Bank, Israeli Arabs, Hezbollah, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt, they're not being serious? Glad to know.
Ah, the risks of never properly acquiring reading comprehension skills, ladies and gents. Along with ignorance of history, facts, and all sorts of other things, right up to ignorance of what one *wrote oneself*.
Israel wasn't fighting Lebanon itself in those wars. It *was* sort of fighting Syria, but not *in* Syria.
(Lebanon was at war with Israel for all of about two days in 1948 and has stayed out of things since.)
"which are the ones providing the merit for the success of the army in the first place."
Absolutely repulsive to try to take the credit from the soldiers out sacrificing that will be dealing with the related disabilities the rest of their lives and give it to a bunch of self-serving dudes sitting on their asses. I'm not sure what religion you practice but it seems like it's the cult of the Charedi rabbi.
Of course, you maintain your anonymity with your disgusting and potentially harmful comments.
From a secular perspective, the sacrifice is worthless. From a secular perspective, the Zionists stole the land and displaced and massacred hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, and continue to inflict suffering on them. From a secular perspective, the Zionists are no more than a band of thieves and murderers, no better than Hamas, and if fact worse because they are the oppressors. It is no mystery why most of the world views the Zionists this way. It is only with the Torah that Jews have moral superiority in this struggle, and the sacrifice attains meaning.
There is no monolith of secular perspectives because unlike the Charedi world they aren't designed on the authoritarian cult model euphemistically called, "daas Torah". I know of secular people across the political spectrum.
You seem to claim that the Charedi world is opposed to the war and Israel's military actions so they should be using their power in the government to end these wars and end conscription for everyone, not just their community. If god and the Torah protects all of Israel they should be able to move to an all-volunteer army but I've not heard of any Charedi leadership calling for an end of military obligations, please point me to sources if this is incorrect.
If the Charedim object to the mission of the military why don't they use the conscientious objector laws to claim exemption for their military service?
There is extensive Torah being learned by Hesder Yeshiva students as well, I've never seen a Jewish text that states that only the Torah learning of military age Charedi men matters.
Also, a book doesn't confer morality on a situation. Morality is based on a relationship between humans and is established on that basis. The book you quote of for morality allows polygamy, slavery, death penalty, and many more things that are contrary to morality but you choose to redefine them as moral because the book includes them.
The secular perspective on this issue is far more monolithic than the chareidi one.
You have very poor reading comprehension. I never claimed the chareidi world was opposed to the war, I can't see how any intelligent person could have read that into my words. I said the opposite, that from a secular perspective it is unjustified, as is the occupation, as is the entire Zionist project. It is the Torah that confers morality upon the occupation.
It's very nice that the Hesder Yeshiva students are learning Torah, the chareidim disagree with their approach, for good reason.
Books don't confer morality, God does. All the things you mentioned are eminently moral, more moral than you will ever be if you lived a thousand lifetimes.
" massacred hundreds of thousands of Palestinians"
It wasn't a massacre.
It wasn't hundreds of thousands.
And your use of the term "Palestinian" is imprecise and anachronistic.
The secular perspective is far less unified than you might think. My circle of close friends, all goyim (an atheist Bernie Bro, a non-observant Muslim, and a Christian) except me, support Israel. They understand that Israel shares their values, and they know the real history that you seem to deny when you spread the lie of Zionists of being thieves and murderers.
It's wonderful that your friends are going against the grain and accept the secular Zionist narrative. If I was secular, I certainly wouldn't. But since I believe the Torah, the narrative is not all too necessary or relevant, since Hashem gave the land to the Jewish people.
You write " the army ...idiotically refused" to accept Charedim.
Then you write " the anti-Torah seculars WANT yeshiva-age chareidim in the army"
While not completely contradictory, it does appear just a bit inconsistent. Please elaborate and back up your insights with facts.
I'll also note that you are incorrect, or at least imprecise, when you write that the army rejected Charedi recruits. You should have written that they rejected some, and accepted some. You neither have explained why the army rejected some, nor have you explained why the army accepted others.
" totally adequately"
A rather poor juxtaposition of words. Why would you modify "adequately" with "totally"? It's weird! You should be aware that an adequate defense is nothing to sing about. I prefer a מדרין defense. We're dealing with Jewish lives; we should not be satisfied with mere adequacy.
Ephraim please can you email me? zoorabbi@zootorah.com
"It definitely doesn't need the 18-21 year old chareidim, the ones who need to be in yeshiva."
Why do they "need" to be in yeshiva? So they can be further conditioned to only listen to the dictatorship of the Charedi cult leaders?
Why do they "need" to be in the army? Why do they need to be in Israel? Why do any Jews need to be in Israel? Why do Jews need to exist? Why does Rob Williger need to post stupid comments?
Thanks for clearing this up, R' Slifkin. I saw this piece, but of course "they rejected all the charedim anyway!" has been a common trope among the apologists for a few weeks at least by now. It seemed off and now I know why.
(Also, just because a man is a Labor politician is no reason to believe him. *All* Israeli political parties, with the possible exception of the far right, have reasons to flatter the charedim.)
That 32% Tel Aviv number also has to be off. No one in Israel "chooses" not to serve. Even committed pacifists are thrown in the brig if they refuse to serve. Everyone has to get an exemption. Are some upper-crust Tel Avivians better skilled at getting them? I imagine. But if you take the average number of exemptions country-wide, add all the charedim, Arabs, and religious women living in Tel Aviv, you'd probably get close to 20% or so if not more. So 32% isn't that wild. In addition to the factors R' Slifkin said.
By the way, in Israel, "charedi" is legally defined as someone who went to a charedi school, which includes Shas and Chabad schools that have lots of non-charedim. There's a practical purpose for this, because those schools *do* provide sub-standard educations which then have to be remedied one way or another, but it tends to skew other statistics as well.
Let me just say this: We don't have to be told that the Left will try any tactic and use any excuse to bring down a right-wing (especially a Bibi-led) government. They've been doing this since Begin first won, and have only been getting crazier since 2020 and especially since October 7. And many of them are of course insincere. For example, some of them attack Bibi for not being harsh *enough* on Hamas when they themselves have been pushing- and still push!- for us to be super-nice to Hamas. And the same goes with their calls to enlist the charedim, something they probably don't really care about or even don't want.
But that doesn't mean that all their claims are *wrong*: Bibi's got plenty of negatives, even if he's not the devil/crook they make him out to be, and it's probably time for him to go. (The problems are there are few to replace him, and none among his actual opponents, and of course that we're in the middle of a war.) Obviously the leadership dealt with Hamas stupidly all these years. And obviously charedim should be serving and working. The fact that the hard right (not parts of the Likud, but more ideological than that), who know full well that everything is a tactic and *don't* want to bring down Bibi, are calling for that should be proof. They're not all manipulated dupes, after all. (Some can be sometimes. But not all.)
By the way, getting charedim to serve means that the Right will have a much easier time winning elections.
Praise the High Heavens! 🙏 There's finally a new article from IM! Right here!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/why-ai-will-never-be-able-to-pasken
There is an Orthodox rav in NY that told his kehila this past shabbos that the charedi rabbi's in Israel are the Miraglim. They are "anshei sheim" that are committing a grave sin.
There is are several Orthodox ravs in NY that told their kehilos on many shabbosim that the Zionist rabbis are the adas Korach of this generation. That they are kofrim and meisisim.
These Rabbis who identify themselves as Orthodox, while promoting hatred are seriously misguided, but I would not refer to them as Kofrim, just ignorant.
Seems like these religious leaders spend a lot of time shit talking and not actually trying to promote peace among people.
The קרח of our generation is "them". It's always "them". It's never "us". Not even a little. I'm not sure how we can derive any מוסר from תנ"ך if we're always pointing fingers.
The מרגלים of our generation is "them". It's always "them". It's never "us". Not even a little. I'm not sure how we can derive any מוסר from תנ"ך if we're always pointing fingers.
Speak for yourself
Please re-read my comment and respond again with some elaboration.
To clarify, I lament the phenomenon of contemporary דרשות on קרח and the מרגלים which focus on the faults of others, and which don't offer a message of introspection. It doesn't mean that those דרשות are wrong, or the criticism is off base. It means that such דרשות offer little in the way of edification.
Ok
I don’t need a rabbi to tell me Haredim are the spiritual descendants of the miraglim….
This is a really good and important piece - I think you should pitch Tablet to write an expanded version as a response to Liel’s article.
Gareth Southgate > Natan Slifkin
A question for Rabbi Slivkin,
I thought we got rid of the ones that hate you, as you required to be signed up to post. I see them back. Did you Change the policy OR they could not "hold out" not calling you names trying to degrade you and paid up to post??
Take this jerk Eli just now, for what purpose is he posting his rant? There is no substance in what he wrote, nor anything intelligent. Why do we ALL have to read through his garbage?
If someone has something to argue, for or against, that is okay as long as it is intelligent[. Please explain, why let in his rant and for what purpose. At the end you still answer him, I cant wrap my brain around why you did that - do you think it is going to change his mind?
Let me ask you, If you walk by graffiti scribbled on a wall, do you take out a can of spray paint the same color and answer it?.
Because he is an idiot who can't control himself. He said last post that it wastes too much of his time to respond to all the comments (That's his excuse. The real reason is to censor all criticism, which he has no response to.) so he blocks all comments like a coward. Just stop responding, fool! It would be much better for you!
Reb Hirsch (I think beginning of ki seitzei, I'll get the exact mareh makom later) makes the point that when it comes to klal yisroel, it's not about numbers. It's about if we're worthy. Hashem can win a war with a lot less people
We need to do teshuva, all on our own levels and with our own situations and I speak for myself alone but that's really what we need
Very nice but how is that relevant to this post?
You said we need more numbers
Given the level of worthiness of the nation, we do indeed need more numbers. And we need the existing needed numbers to be made up from across the entire population.
I just wonder if that's the issue, will numbers help?
Yes, they will, because that is how Hashem's world works. Plus, again, it's not just about more numbers, it's also about how the existing numbers should be distributed.
If one has roof access without a guardrail, and someone falls off it, the correct way to do teshuva is to put up guardrails.
It is in דברים כ,ב, but I think you misinterpreted his words. I don't think his intention is to downplay the חובת השתדלות at all.
"Hashem can win a war with a lot less people"
כמה גרוע אדם זה שנשתנו לו סדרי בראשית
Indeed, Hashem can win a war without any people. Can we afford such a victory?
@shulman,
Just curious. Why do you need to do teshuva?
What awful thing have you done?
o don't worry, i got my own share of things to worry about!
but even if was doing amazing, teshuva is about "returning"; getting closer to Hashem, and it's a lifelong process. one can always be even Godlier.
@shulman,
There are a number of ways that one can get closer to Hashem. Teshuva, remorse and repentance, is a traditional form of communion. That’s the common meaning of teshuva. And if you need to impose a guilt trip on yourself, just scream teshuva for all your self-created, non-sensical halachic indiscretions.
But if you really want to get closer to Hashem, put your Gemara aside and try studying Hashem’s vocabulary — mathematics, his vocabulary with which we try to understand his universe. That is the real לשן קדש.
https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/9665a78b0ebdb2359cb6b31072a6314bec06e2c5
wow thank you for opening my eyes to this new way of life
@ shulman,
It’s not a new way of life, it was discovered in 17th century C.E. and the foundational elements of modern mathematical differential calculus have been noted in Egyptian 18th century B.C.E. calculations.
It seems they grasped Hashem’s holy vocabulary a lot better than your Gedolim did.
I was being sarcastic.
No, math explains the universe beautifully, but does zero to explain God and His relationship with us.
Liel Liebowitz reads Hebrew, he is the son of the infamous ofnobank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-jAUVsqFUo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronnie_Leibowitz
and a descendant of Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je-oRxg3mkc
I'm very surprised that Rabbi Slifkin continues to avoid facing the real reason the Chareidim will never join the IDF.
If anyone else wants to know the real reason, I suggest you watch the video at http://vayakhel.com
You will finally realize the real reason that Chareidim will never join the IDF. (Hint: it has nothing to do with learning Torah.)
The part of Liel Liebowitz's article that Rabbi Slifkin didn't address here (the "second lie", if you will), is that the government is supposedly fighting this war in a way that it can win.
Douglas Murray has said repeatedly, "Israel is never allowed to win a war", because of international pressure to never completely finish off the enemy. But there are many moral constraints that Israel is imposing on itself, to make the war essentially unwinnable. First, they said that only those Gazans who are active members of Hamas or Islamic Jihad are legitimate targets. Now today they said that the Gazan police force (also Hamas members) are no longer legitimate targets. Eventually, we'll reach the point where we'll be constrained that only if a Gazan is actively trying to kill an Israeli soldier, is he to be considered a combatant and a legitimate target.
By the way, "Israel doesn't fight to win so why should we fight" is a very common slogan of the charedim and their "right-wing" apologists.
That's kind of why I mentioned this part of Liebowitz's article, even though Rabbi Slifkin didn't want to divert the discussion here to that argument.
I remember at the beginning of the war, that people were sending food packages to the soldiers. One soldier was holding a package of machine matzo. He said, "I hope we won't be in Gaza that long." We thought we'd wrap this thing up way before Pesach. Now, we're hearing that we'll have to be in Gaza for years.
Wars are always fought stupidly. That is never an excuse not to serve.
One big problem is that even the Israeli "Right" allows its actions to be dictated by unelected judges and "legal advisors" way out of line with what their actual legal authority is.
Gazans aren't Israeli citizens; ergo, the Attorney General has no right to dictate what their supposed "rights" are.
One use per comic, everyone knows the rules.
It's a good comic, though.
Well, the IDF said they are now ready to absorb just 3000 Haredim. So, the 66,000 figure is irrelevant.
The fact that charedim have added demands does not absolve them of guilt for not sharing the national burden. It would signify a deep flaw in charedi society if they make themselves so unsuited to army service, and so uninterested in figuring out a way to make it work, that everyone else has to instead increase the length of time that they spend in service and reserve duty. And it would mean that the charedim have a deep debt to the rest of Israeli society, rather than be treated as privileged people who should be funded by the rest of society. It would also mean that charedi society has a responsibility to change such that they can share the responsibility of national defense.
Debt to the rest of society? Don't make me laugh! The chareidim are the ones taking on the burden of keeping the Torah, providing the merit for the seculars to exist in the Land which yearns to spit them out for all their sins. Wicked people like yourself wouldn't be able to live there without the chareidim!
So how did everyone manage to live in Israel for the first few decades, before there were thousands of charedim in yeshiva?
How did the army manage worse threats before there were 66,000 chareidim in the army?
Answer my question, then I'll answer yours.
Never before have there been 200,000 missiles pointing at Israel. The "worse threats" consisted of a much smaller number of tanks and airplanes, which could be handled much more quickly by a much smaller number of troops (if properly equipped and directed).
So a good reason why we need thousands of chareidim in yeshiva!
"worse threats"
You're downplaying the crisis.
You're exaggerating the crisis.
Interesting then that for 70 years or so post the state being declared besides the many years before the state was declared it was the massive number of non-religious and very few religious who brought us the merit of the state being declared and successful.
If you contend that it was the few religious in whose merits the state was declared then please explain why now when we have many more religious people we i.e Israel is in the mess we are in ?
"The chareidim are the ones taking on the burden of keeping the Torah,"
You shouldn't use the word "burden" in the context of soldiers and their struggling families. And not all of them have taken on Torah study as a real heavy burden. More likely it's a day job and hobby. But a burden? A select few.
"providing the merit for the seculars to exist in the Land which yearns to spit them out for all their sins."
Here's the ספרא:
ולא תקיא אתכם הארץ בטמאכם אותה ארץ ישראל אינה כשאר כל הארץ, אינה מקיימת בעלי עוברי עבירות.
The ספרא does not provide the slightest hint that Torah study of some individuals inoculates the sinners from being expectorated from the land. Please provide a classic source for your חידוש. Even the sources that discuss Torah study as protection, do not discuss protection from being expelled by a land who can't tolerate sinners.
We don’t need your merit.
@David Ilan,
That’s right. You don’t need secular’s or Dati’s merit. You only need their money. Parisitical Chareidism in all its gory glory.
>>charedim have a deep debt to the rest of Israeli society, rather than be treated as privileged people.
You sound like a broken record.
I have pointed out to you a few times that the opposite is true. You blocked comments on a few posts and you already forgot it all?
A quick summary (for more see previous threads):
The core of today's crisis is demographic. We can't annex Gaza and make everyone citizens because there aren't enough Jews in Israel.
This was recognized as the core issue since the beginning of the Zionist project. Unfortunately, the only ones who put all their effort in having the largest families possible and growing as fast as possible were the Charedim.
Had the rest of the country grown as fast as the Charedim we would have over 50 million Jews in Israel today. Even 18 million would be enough to avert the current crisis.
The non-Charedim caused this crisis. Unfortunately, they don't seem to recognize this. They willing blind themselves to the fact that this is a demographic crisis.
Well it's been a bit hard for Datiim to make babies right now, as the men are all in Miluim.
Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention.
As I guess you were intimating, it is exactly for reasons like this that I feel it is so important to get our priorities right.
Imagine if it would be utterly clear to everyone that the real long-term solution is demographic. Don't you think the IDF would figure out a way to give soldiers flexibility to be home at the right times of the month (if not once a month at least every other month)?
And, if the issue is the hardship of caring for the children, don't you think the government and society would make arrangements for this if they recognized this as the top priority of the country in the long-term? Perhaps they would even give some sort of paternity leave from the army for those who have multiple young children if they can't come up with any other solution. (Perhaps I am radical on this, but I believe that the money spent on Dimona would have been much better spent on increasing the growth-rate of Jews in Israel. If we had 20-50 million Jews in Israel today, I think the country would be far more secure than it is currently.)
(And yes, I do agree with you that Charedi society should do more to help out at least on this front, though reading the posts here I could understand that they would be afraid of spending time with people who may consider them worse than Hamas. If I would live in Israel and understand the culture, perhaps I would make this my life's mission.)
I think the main thing is to constantly reiterate that this is the main long-term solution. If you know anyone who has a voice, please convey this message to them.
To me this is not just a practical issue, it is the core ideological battle between us and the Arabs. Golda Meir famously said, "We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us". (In contrast, Arafat famously said ‘the wombs of Palestinian women are the greatest weapon of Palestine', i.e., the purpose of bearing a child is as a weapon. And Yahya Sinwar said…) I believe that the main thing is to prove to the world that we love our own children more than the Arabs hate us. The entire world is looking at us to show that the chosen nation will vanquish the Arab hatred specifically through their love of life. The want to see that love of life can vanquish hatred. That is the real battle here. This isn't just another war. In a practical sense this will hopefully be accomplished when we overwhelm the Arabs demographically through a growth rate which is unmatched in the civilized world. That is when the entire civilized world will look at us with a sense of admiration and will come to beg us for advice on how to repair their own society which has become suicidal due to its low fertility.
I wonder if this message is something that is emphasized often in your community. In your community who is considered a greater hero, a soldier who did heroic acts or a mother (or father) of a large family?
Hi Yehoshua-
1- You don't understand how war works, if you think the Chayyalim can be sent home monthly on an individual schedule. ..I was being facetious, but being away for so long is taking a toll on many families. Are you available to help? ("The government" can't do everything).
2- No one considers Hareidim worse than Hamas, see my response to CraftyYid from July 3, but that doesn't mean we're not annoyed
3- Your concluding question would be like asking, which is more important Shabbat or Kashrut? It doesn't work like that.. We have lots of obligations, and when they compete, we have to deal with them as best we can
> You don't understand how war works, if you think the Chayyalim can be sent home monthly on an individual schedule.
I understand it is extremely complicated. That was why I found it necessary to add the parentheses right after that (and I added at least every other month). However, precisely because it is so complicated the statement that would be made through such a policy would be all the more effective, both strategically (to show that the core of the crisis is demographic) and as a value statement, to proclaim to the entire world that we value life over death, even the death of our mortal enemies.
> Are you available to help? ("The government" can't do everything).
I wrote that I don't live in Israel, and if I would, perhaps I would make this my life's mission.
I currently live in the U.S and have a large family ka"h. Should I leave my own wife and family?
If you would like to convince me to move to Israel (in a private conversation, I guess) I am open to hearing from you. Additionally, if you have a suggestion as to how I can help from over the seas, please inform me.
Perhaps the main reason I was always quite apprehensive about moving to Israel is due to all the infighting in frum society. It breaks my heart to read all the finger-pointing; the Charedim did this and the datiim did that. I don't understand why everyone can't just think for themselves, learn to take the best from all societies and stop with all the immature and stupid name calling? It seems that Israeli society is structured this way, and it makes me very nervous about raising my children there.
I live in Lakewood, and I strongly disagree with just about every public statement by the local Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva (including the one highlighted by the OP in his most recent post, and not just for the reasons he gave). I am acquainted with many Talmidei Chachamim who have similar feelings. But so what? We just laugh at all of it, and whenever an opportunity arises to bring about change, we grab it.
If I would move to Israel, I assume I would send my children to Charedi mosdos, for a few reasons, one of them highlighted here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/two-different-torahs/comment/59073707?utm_campaign=comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=substack&utm_content=comment. At the same time, I would try to train them to think for themselves. I understand that is hard in Charedi society (which is why I am still apprehensive), but I believe it is getting easier over time. Hopefully sometime soon, or at least in in another generation or 2, it will be possible to have a Lakewood-style society in Israel.
If you would like to change my mind on any of this, please go ahead.
> No one considers Hareidim worse than Hamas, see my response to CraftyYid from July 3
I read that comment, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the OP justified himself for keeping such comments on his blog. I hope you are right that the OP is an extreme outlier.
> Your concluding question would be like asking, which is more important Shabbat or Kashrut?
I don't think you understand human psychology. There is a reason why it is accepted to honor heroes.
Besides, this is all in the context of responding to the OP who wrote horrible words about Charedim, while in my opinion in the long-term they are the real saviors of the country (despite their very real problems). Unfortunately, this kind of talk has very real consequences, as it deflects from addressing the real long-term crisis. It sends a message that having large families is not that essential.
Correct.
Non-Charedim should have larger families. (It should be noted that secular Israelis have larger families on the average, compared to the rest of the Western world.)
And Charedim should fulfill the מצות they neglect.
"They willing blind themselves to the fact that this is a demographic crisis."
Not quite. They often point to the demographic crisis (assuming it exists) as reason for rushing a deal with the Arabs. As a matter of national security, the gov't should enact policies to encourage fertility among the secular.
>And Charedim should fulfill the מצות they neglect.
פשיטא, מאי קמ"ל?! (See my recent comment to Chana Rachel)
>Not quite. They often point to the demographic crisis (assuming it exists) You seem to be referring to a different demographic crisis than I was.
You are discussing a future demographic crisis. That doesn't seem to be such a concern currently. The Charedim have already averted it ב"ה, both through their own actions and through serving as an example for the rest of the country. (Do you really think it is a coincidence that the only modern country with a TFR above replacement level is the country that has a significant percentage of Charedim- the only society in the modern world that manages to maintain a TFR above 4?). I guess if the OP succeeds in kicking out the Charedim as he suggested at the end of this post https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim?utm_campaign=comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=substack&utm_content=post, this concern will return.
I was referring to the current demographic crisis, which is the root of the current crisis, as I explained here and in earlier threads.
"Do you really think it is a coincidence that the only modern country with a TFR above replacement level is the country that has a significant percentage of Charedim- the only society in the modern world that manages to maintain a TFR above 4?"
I don't understand the question.
Is it still unclear?
It was a continuation from the 11 previous words. (This isn't my own theory. I have seen this idea written by secular and non-Jewish writers.)
They never said "just," they said they can do that now.
What about all the other people who feel the same way? Do they all have a problem, too? Or maybe, just maybe, we have a legitimate reason to be upset? Do you have children in the army?
No, not the other people. Even if they feel the same way, nobody is nearly as obsessed as you, and you don't even have kids in combat.
I'm obsessed.
My kids were told that they will be doing 100 days miluim in the next year.
ie forget work or anything else- They will be away from home for 1/4 of the year.
They'll do it, but believe me, it's not simple.
and yes, something for this Savta to obsess about
Savta, you are not obsessed. You might be very bitter. You might even hate chareidim more than Hamas. But obsession is something else.
Obsession is having a website dedicated to attacking chareidim, with articles about them almost daily. Obsession is having thousands of such articles on said website over 15 years. Obsession is having your entire facebook feed dedicated to chareidim. Obsession is when Yom Hatzmaut is about chareidim, Yom Hazikaron is about chareidim, Purim costumes are about chareidim, somebody with purple hair reminds you of chareidim, dropping your luggage reminds you of chareidim, shlissel challah reminds you of chareidim, self-driving cars remind you of chareidim, and all of these prompt articles on your website dedicated to chareidim...
Just admit it, Slifkin is a very, very sick man, and should check himself into the nearest psychiatric facility immediately.
Then you don't understand us at all...
Datiim would never ever make a comparison like "Hate Chareidim more than Hamas".
We send our sons to fight, with a heavy heart, even for 100 days a year, protecting all of Am Yisrael because we know exactly whose side we're on
Savta, I understand you very well. I don't think you hate chareidim the same way Slifkin does. And you're definitely not obsessed. Having a heavy heart does not equal obsession. Slifkin does not have a heavy heart, except in the context of ויכבד לב פרעה, but is obsessed to the point of insanity, and would benefit from intense psychiatric treatment.
"Obsession is having a website..."
So if it were a one time post on the subject, you'd agree with it? Or are you double-talking?
So if your grandmother had wheels, would she be a bus?
You may not realize this, being a member of a privileged class and all, but the average Israeli is thinking (or trying not think) about the combat his kids will face from the moment they're born.
Disgusted
The Charge xim win the medal for their skill in avoiding responsibility and
not showing true Mesirat Nefesh.
By offical Israeli statistics, there are 1.3 million Charedim living in the country. There are a few hundred thousand living in the USA, Canada and UK who fully identify with the values and priorities of Israeli Charedim.
1.3 million is 18% of Israeli Jews, which is a ridiculously high number. The actual total is less than half that.
By the way, UTJ and Shas combined got 14% of the votes in the last election, and almost all of Shas' voters aren't charedi.
Half of the Haredi population is 17 and under.
And yet UTJ's share of the vote never seems to go up.
In any event, it's not just elections. About 40% of Israeli Jews call themselves "secular" and a bit under that "traditional". Those are slippery definitions, but neither of them are charedi. (Although a lot of Shas' voters are "traditional.") That leaves just over 20% religious, and there are far more dati leumi Jews than charedim. Which means charedim can't be 18%.
The funny thing is, suppose it's true that I have PTSD. So what? It wouldn't mean that this post's points are not correct - that Liebowitz didn't misunderstand the Knesset report!
Natan, I'm waiting for you to address this very important video on http://vayakhel.com for the real reason the chareidim will never join the IDF. (Hint: it has nothing to do with learning Torah.)
Please summarize the video for those who can't be bothered to tolerate the long, tortoise paced discussion. Despite your frequently linking of the video, I don't think it offers much insight or illumination.
First you write:
"Please summarize the video for those who can't be bothered to tolerate the long, tortoise paced discussion."
Then you write:
"Despite your frequently linking of the video, I don't think it offers much insight or illumination."
How do you know whether it offers much insight or illumination if you can't be bothered to tolerate a long, tortoise paced discussion?
Those who have the patience to watch it will be very enlightened as to what is driving Chareidim, and why they will never, ever join the IDF. If you really want to know why a very large segment of Israel will never serve, watch this video. HINT: It has nothing to do with learning Torah. The excuse of learning Torah is a huge bluff.
"How do you know whether it offers much insight or illumination if you can't be bothered to tolerate a long, tortoise paced discussion?"
I didn't write I could be bothered etc... I wrote that for those who can't be bothered etc... you should summarize it.
I did watch the video. And I found it bothersome, intolerable and not insightful.
"The excuse of learning Torah is a huge bluff."
This is true, or at least partially true. The (alleged?) fraudulent enrollment of non-learning students in ישיבות lends credence to your claim.
That's one of the leaders of Etz, https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%9F, they have a different view than the mainstream Degel HaTorah chareidim.
You are behind times. He is no longer affiliated with Eitz. He is basically affiliated with Satmar.
not true.
Yes true. You clearly don't know the least about the chareidi world, stuff that even the ignoramus Slifkin knows.
Not true that they have a different view than the mainstream Degel Hatorah Chareidim.
Eli, I don't know if you're Jewish or whether you care about Jewish sources, but if so, I'd suggest you review the halachos of Ona'as Devorim and then let us know how you'd justify posting such things about a known individual.
(Shower Music et al, please let Eli answer for himself. You are hopelessly juvenile and cruel; perhaps Eli is not. Maybe he's merely misguided, rather than warped, like you are. Thanks!)
You can start here: https://www.sefaria.org/Sefer_HaChinukh.338?lang=bi
Shlomo, did you review the laws of Onaas Devarim before deciding that you are permitted to call somebody "hopelessly juvenile and cruel" and "warped"? Oh, what's that you say? The laws don't apply to you? You have dispensation to do whatever you want? And what about Slifkin, much worse, who does onaas Devarim to communities of tens of thousands, ignoring the laws of Onaas Devarim and Lashon Hara? I'm sure you have endless excuses for him also, hmmmmmmm?
Yes I did.
And yes, the laws apply to me as well, as they do to R' Slifkin.
Learn them and you will get your answer.
And learn about Whataboutism as well.
And allow Eli to answer for himself.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt
"Whataboutism" is not a dispensation for you and Slifkin to engage in severe Onaas Devarim. It's just an excuse, as I predicted.
I see that you neither understand Whataboutism nor Ona'as Devorim.
No further replies from me.
I understand exactly what Onaas Devarim is. It is any criticism of Shlomo's favored people, but never applies to the Onaas Devarim that Shlomo himself or his friends partake in, for reasons that he refuses to explain (because he cannot.)
You shouldn't have to know the laws of something to understand instinctively how decent humans beings should speak and act.
Unfortunately, some segments of the Jewish community have had decent instincts driven from them. Too "goyish" and all.
But enough about Professor Leibowitz.
The man is running a full time museum that's only doing better. What's "broken"?
@Rami,
What’s broken is Rav Slifkin’s break with parasitic Chareidism.
I mean, you can say that, but it doesn't mean a whole lot. For better or for worse, Rabbi Slifkin has chosen to spending time writing about issues he cares about, while juggling a full time job and being a father and husband. If this is somehow impacting his own personal life, it is beyond us to know.
"Severe ptsd. "
There are people who are currently suffering, and will suffer from PTSD. You mock and belittle the concept of PTSD, and you show no sympathy to those of your brethren who truly suffer from PTSD.
הפורש מדרכי ציבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללם לא נכנס בצרתם וכו' אין לו חלק לעולם הבא.
Thank you for making this point.
This post is basic analysis. Do you realize how dumb you sound?
What an awful thing to say, especially in the current matzav.