Because there are no new points, just a regurgitation of your continuous daily verbal vomit. Like this stupidity:
"And if the spiritual merits of the Torah of charedim can’t even protect them from the damage caused by the Supreme Court, then on what basis can they possibly claim that their Torah study can nevertheless protect against genocidal terrorist attacks and rockets from Hamas and Hezbollah?"
Chareidim never said the army is unnecessary, just like they never said politics are unnecessary. So just the typical idiocy from you, based on the most ignorant understanding of chareidi thought.
NS point: "And if the spiritual merits of the Torah of charedim can’t even protect them from the damage caused by the Supreme Court, then on what basis can they possibly claim that their Torah study can nevertheless protect against genocidal terrorist attacks and rockets from Hamas and Hezbollah?"
Youre response: "Chareidim never said the army is unnecessary"
Where in his point does he claim charedim ever said the army in unnecesary? What is the connection between your response and his point?
When you actually provide clear, throught thorough, sourced, bullet point responses to each and every one his points (including the self-contradictions in the charedi world), maybe debate will be possible (and general calls from that Jerry chap do learn more mussar is not a thorough, sourced, bullet point response). Until then, don't bother responding.
I don't know why you even bother to try and answer this BANdana. He waits around all day to spit out his stupidity with nothing intelligent or coherent in his rantings.
I truly don't understand why NS does not block him. I am on board with NS and so are many of my frum Friends in the our Monsey circle. I enjoy his arguments and really appreciate how he composes his articles with his clear thinking, building out the points he makes.
I accept debate and argument trying to see other viewpoint or how they answer, and many times I am impressed by their arguments. Sometimes I don't exactly agree with NS. However when you get a BANdana hogging the site with his ridiculous arguments, it takes away from the entire Blog. When looking further to the comments, many times I don't even want to go there, and some in our circle never go there for this exact reason. We send to each other comments when one thinks NS composed it really well.
Keeping such people on the site, does more harm then good. It keeps others, who would like to go have a look at the comments section, think why click further- those nuts are only at it, bashing NS and everything intelligent. I find myself going less and less to the comment section. I also hardly contribute, why get mixed up in mud. By the way I use my real name and don't hide (like a rat) behind who I am - I live in Forshey in Monsey and daven in Harav Chaim Leibish Rottensberg chassidish Shul.
The only good thing it does - is a Gimilas Chesed to the guys like BANdana, as now he has opportunity to spice up his boring life, and he feels good he can spew his stupidity and antagonism. I imagine he wakes up every morning to see what is new with NS and then his day just got that much brighter. So I guess keeping him on does some good. Unfortunately it keeps others away.
I don't know why you ask for bullet points, I never once saw you responding in bullet points, you are just bizzare. The rest of your silly comment is not worth responding to, I already responded to Slifkin's stupidity just fine.
You didn't get it the last 300x, why would you get it now? You need to learn more mussar and machshava seforim. That's all.
And why would I respond to all the stuff misinformed side points when the root of it all is that you just need to learn more about how and why we appreciate torah
You don’t appreciate Torah you appreciate the so called benefits you get with Torah. Govt financial support and freedom from draft. You used the Torah as a spade to dig with and now it’s time to pay the cost of your actions.
I was thinking of suggesting that Yeshivas that relocate to otef Gaza could continue to be exempt from the draft on the condition that they have no IDF security protection and no Iron Dome coverage
But they didn't relocate to Gaza because that would be a מקום סכנה. But certainly their presence in Beit Shemesh protects from the Palestinians in Gaza! Thank G-d for them!
And would their Torah have protected the Jews of Netivot or Sderot, as it allegedly did for Beit Shemesh? If yes, why didn't they stay? Soldiers go where they are needed!
But not Benei Berak from rats. Nor Beiter during a time of alert - more security is demanded. And COVID ran rampant through yeshivos, no protection there.
Truly it has been said that the modern existence of charedism is owed, ironically, to postwar liberalism (ironically because charedism is in theory opposed to liberalism), in at least two ways:
1. Acceptance of different lifestyles, multiculturalism, etc. makes it much easier to live as a charedi, much more so than in a world where people are urged to conform, in various ways, as much as possible; and
2. Governments throwing around money like drunken sailors, subsidizing non-working people, etc. means that charedim can naturally benefit as well, even more so if they apply their Yiddishe cups to this.
(I am proud to say that as someone who is generally negative about acceptance, multiculturalism, the welfare state, and out of control spending, I am not being hypocritical when I don't approve of their application to charedim. Charedim, of course, are supremely hypocritical here, I hope I don't have to spell it out.)
Anyway, to this we can add another feature of the current age: The belief that such spending is a force of nature, not to be interfered with. I remember the scandal when Rush Limbaugh exposed the concept of "baseline budgeting," which means that there is an assumption that spending will always go up, so a "cut" is really a raise, just not as much. Spending never goes down. We can also recall the Alaska congressman (a Republican, for the record: this is not a partisan problem) who, when some pet project of his was cut, went to the floor of the house and began screaming about how it was "MY MONEY! MYYYYY MONEY!" Of course, it was no such thing, but modern thought is that...it is. (And Israel, of course, has the same earmark issue in the form of "party funds.")
So when the UTJ people scream, they are, perhaps unknowingly, reflecting and even being influenced by this way of thinking. The government has given them money- money which, of course, was taken from other people by (as all laws are) implied threat of violence and even death, and thus it is *their* money and always must be.
And before the chuckleheads here start carrying on about the HaBima theater or universities or whatever: First, I don't think they should be getting tax money either. But even if I thought they *did*, that is apples and oranges in far more ways than one. I'll let other people say how so.
That's what you guys like to tell yourself, but chareidim do much better economically in the much reduced welfare state of the US than they do in the massive welfare state of Israel. Demonstrating the opposite, that chareidim can thrive better when they are left alone.
That is exactly my point. The sort of extreme litvish charediism found in Israel could never have emerged in the US. Only a in country that not only has a massive welfare state, but is liberal enought willing to allow and support educational institutions that reject all government supervision, basic general education and indocrinate the students to be unpatrotic citizens, could Isralei charedism possible survive to get large enough to threaten the very State on which they are dependant. In America Charedim are force to get educations and work- and as result devoloped a charediism is far more moderate and acceptable to other Jews and citizens than Israeli charedism.
Not really. Americans chareidim are far, far closer to Israeli chareidim in both hashkafa and practice than they are to the Modox. There is a reason why American chareidim mix go to Brisk and Mir and not Gush. The sort of "extreme litvish chareidism" can only be found in a dysfunctional country where you have to serve in the army in order to legally work. Stop threatening to draft chareidim every couple of months and things would change.
"Americans chareidim are far, far closer to Israeli chareidim in both hashkafa and practice than they are to the Modox"
Another gem. Complete irrelevant answer to his point. His point is 100% correct, American chareidim is far more moderate than the Israeli version. That's just an objective fact. They get education and work, and in many many cases are far more broad minded (its all relative of course).
The fact that they are not closer to the modox is completely irrelevant to that point. Of course, you know my view, once you strip away the garb and more 'religious appearance', the line between a moderate charedi (whose been out the echo-chamber for say a decade) and serious modox chap is virtually non-existant.
In your world, the default is anti-religious. Only with liberalism can people live against the default.
This is just your world. Torah Jews wish for a world in which Hashem's honor is supreme, and there is no need for tolerance for a person to follow the Torah proudly.
The tolerance is 'the hospital under the bridge', not the solution to the problem
Jabotinsky proposed an even more expansive welfare state than the liberals or socialists did. And the first welfare state was created in Germany by Bismarck, not the liberals or socialists.
Rush Limbaugh was my Rebbi. He taught me the value of working for a living and not living off the welfare state. Thanks to him, I had the courage to leave Kollel and join the workforce to support my family. I am forever indebted to my true Rebbi, Rush Limbaugh.
I imagine you never listened to Rush Limbaugh once. Nor know much about him.
The rest of your points make no difference. I'm not a fan of Bismarck, and just because Jabotinsky thought something was a good idea doesn't mean I have to march in lockstep with it.
Jabotinsky died before WWII broke out. While he had the foresight to see that disaster was coming for the Jews of Europe, he did not predict the failure of socialist economics. But nobody ever claimed that the Revisionists had the gift of prophecy.
UTJ chairman Yitzhak Goldknopf declared that “the order given by the judges of the High Court of Justice, whose purpose is to seriously harm the Torah and Jewish people (!), here in the Land of Israel – the state of the Jewish people – is a sign of disgrace and contempt… The State of Israel arose to be a home for the Jewish people whose Torah is a Torah of truth… Without the Torah, we have no right to exist.”
Wait, so does that mean that the State of Israel is a good thing for Haredim and they support it now?
Ger has a more positive attitude to the state of Israel than most other chassidus. That doesn't mean they worship the state like religious Zionists do.
I worship HaShem. I pray to HaShem for the welfare of the State of Israel and for the success of the IDF. So do all the other religious Zionists I know. Please cite an example of one who worships the state rather than HaShem.
I didn't know Charles B Hall was female, but I suppose with gender reassignment surgery, anything is possible. On what basis do I claim her tefilos are insincere? Didn't you claim people's beliefs are insincere if "they are not willing to stake anything at all on their purported belief"? You said it!
Any yeshiva closing for Bein haZmanim in wartime, even if it only empties out for first and last days of Pesach, cannot claim they really believe they are necessary. Could you picture if Tzahal let the vast majority of those deployed go home for a day of Yom Tov all at once? (Please don't really try to imagine the results, I don't mean to depress anyone.)
The CR, R David Lau, called for extra learning bein hazmanim -- but isn't that like sending the soldiers home telling them to keep an eye open while walking their neighborhoods? How do you decrease the Torah study at all if you really believed -- not just in your brain but in your gut -- that it helps keep the country safe? How do you lose the advantage of the context.
Deciding on their own? Or the "generals" deciding for them. I think bain hazmanim is excessive and I hope they significantly shorten it this year, but some is definitely necessary. But I don't understand the point of this if you already made up your mind that Torah doesn't protect.
Charedi leadership response is as expected, but a rational thinker wouldn't celebrate chaos and polarization of society in the middle of a losing war against Hamas and a possible full scale war with Hizbollah. Charedim cannot be forced to serve, they will not show up for the draft in August.
The voice of reason has unsurprisingly lost again.
I've seen how. I'm happy I have a train to take to commute now instead of the bus, because crazy charedim would block the roads (ironically making the buses go through charedi neighborhoods) and make me get home hours late. Torah values!
They may block the trains also. Chilonim and DL block traffic and close roads when protesting. These are democratic values, mate. Are you against democracy now?
There's no way they're getting close to the trains. If you were familiar with them, you'd know.
I am on the record, for a long, long time, as being opposed to anyone blocking any road for any reason. As someone who lives on a road that is blocked by protesters almost every day, some of whom once beat me and sent me to the hospital, trust me, I am opposed. Blocking roads is not "democracy." And even if it was, freedom to do something does not mean it *should* be done.
Well, democracy is fraud, chaos and disintegration of society. But blocking roads is a common tactic used by angry demonstrators. Not much that this system can do about it. Chilonim are blocking roads and rioting in Tel Aviv right now. The political system is inadequate to deal with challenges that are facing the country. Nothing can be done about it.
Everyone, just remember, the author of this article is a bar plugta of Rashi! Don't take his word lightly!
(Somehow, all the same people alive today who are on Rashi's level are happy to see this reduction of torah learning. I guess we should rethink our position, us small minded Charedim who don't come close to fathoming the greatness of the gr'a, let alone Rashi. We, who bow our heads in deference to the likes of the bach and maharshal and thousands of other greats who accepted the Zohar, somehow find ourselves on this side of the aisle regarding the gravity of this move.
Oh right, because we all drank the cool-aid and can't think past our noses, unlike these enlightened folks who know so much better!)
I would personally be delighted to see a reduction in the type of Torah which perpetuates the heinous philosophy of the charedim. Time to learn the whole Torah, not just cherry pick the bits that support your narcissism.
What on earth does the Zohar and rationalism have to do with this? I'm pretty sure that most of the chardalim who want charedim to serve in the army believe in the Zohar, and many are mystically-inclined.
Indeed. The rationalist believes that only by withdrawing from life can one reach spiritual levels, whereas the mystic believes that mundane activities (such as army service to defeat our enemies) carry within sparks of Holiness.
Indeed, the Zohar is a later text ascribed to Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai. A basic linguistic analysis confirms this. The challenge lies in post-Biblical Judaism, where there's no established method to question the teachings of ancient pious rabbis with long beards. :-)
Ever see Gershon Shulems 18 proofs that it was not Rashbi but Moses D'elon himself that wrote it. This is not to argue it does not have the validity of any other Kabbalistic work - but who is the real author?
I sometimes have fun with Christians when I point out that they don't even understand the pshat of what they call the Old Testament, much less exegesis.
Rambam says that anyone who accepts money for Torah study is "desecrating God's name, mocking the Torah, extinguishing the light of religion, harming themselves, and removing themselves from the world to come". I too would be excited and gleeful if these things were to end.
Why don't you deal with the point? Here - not links to often rambling or not relevant comments elsewhere. Give some clear bullet point responses to the discrepancies Natan flags. Without irrelevant references to rashi, zohar, maharshal and bach.
The fact that you don't just gives ammunition to those whi claim "because we all drank the cool-aid and can't think past our noses".
And why does he think that and what are your explanations why it is not ridiculous and absurd behaviour? Because it sure seems ridiculous and absurd to any thinking person.
And Hashem is writing this comment to you, telling you that you have no idea what you are talking about, conflating political speech with a Charedi position.
Not if the "fighting" means leaving their learning to go to demonstrations. In that case it's not hishtadlus, it shows a lack of bitachon in their learning to protect their parnassah.
This is an interesting development but if the financial repercussions are limited to Yeshiva stipends, I am skeptical it will have much, if any, effect. I would think yeshivas will simply increase donor fundraising to substitute for lost government funds. Proper financial incentivization would probably have to be quite a bit broader.
Please don't blame R Dessler and Michtav meiEliyahu... The belief in an inverse relationship between bitachon and needing hishtadlus predates him. For example, I just finished a short daily seder in Qunterus haBitachon by the Beis haLevi (R Yosef Dov haLevi Soloveitchik I), and the concept is one of the booklet's central themes! Even concludes saying that "adam la'amal yulad -- man was born to toil" but you have a choice between toiling in hishtadlus to make your money or toiling in learning. Choose to develop bitachon, so that you can do the latter. Even invokes "anu mashkimin veheim mashkimin... - we arise and they arise... we arise to get payment, and they arise without getting payment". (Yes, the BhL takes "sekhar" here to refer to payment, not or not only spiritual reward.)
It is a patent ruse to bring down the right wing government, with the idea that it will cause the chareidi parties to leave the coalition, and thereby force new elections - which the left wing inanely believes will return them to power.
any time anyone opposes anything in the Government, people say- this is just an effort ot bring down the government. some basic knowledge of public opinion shows the absurdity of these arguments
If the chareidi parties were to leave the coalition and there were new elections, it is a known fact that all the parties crying about chareidiim "sharing the burden" will be prepared to give the chareidim ten times as much as they get now - in exchange for joining a coalition with them and bringing them into power.
Well, having "some basic knowledge of public opinion" I know that public opinion in Israel is very much in favor of a right wing government (remember, they got elected time after time?) and the left is desperately trying to find a weak link to bring it down, believing that the weak link is the chareidi parties.
First you are wrong about current public opinion. It appears to favor a center right government at best. Second Israeli public opinion overwhelmingly opposes chareid draft exemptions. Third, there are alot of people who want Bibi out but, dont want elections untill the war is over. The idea that the weakest link the entire Israeli political specture the "left" is driving thing and manipulating evrryone else, is pure conspiracy theory. The Charedim are not the weak link, they are the only members of the government who place their own needs above national security. Many many people hope that the charedim will leave and Likud will be able to form a new government with out them, avoiding elections.
It's amazing. So many comments here from charedi polemicists. And not one addressing the actual points that I made!
Because there are no new points, just a regurgitation of your continuous daily verbal vomit. Like this stupidity:
"And if the spiritual merits of the Torah of charedim can’t even protect them from the damage caused by the Supreme Court, then on what basis can they possibly claim that their Torah study can nevertheless protect against genocidal terrorist attacks and rockets from Hamas and Hezbollah?"
Chareidim never said the army is unnecessary, just like they never said politics are unnecessary. So just the typical idiocy from you, based on the most ignorant understanding of chareidi thought.
Look in the mirror, maybe.
NS point: "And if the spiritual merits of the Torah of charedim can’t even protect them from the damage caused by the Supreme Court, then on what basis can they possibly claim that their Torah study can nevertheless protect against genocidal terrorist attacks and rockets from Hamas and Hezbollah?"
Youre response: "Chareidim never said the army is unnecessary"
Where in his point does he claim charedim ever said the army in unnecesary? What is the connection between your response and his point?
When you actually provide clear, throught thorough, sourced, bullet point responses to each and every one his points (including the self-contradictions in the charedi world), maybe debate will be possible (and general calls from that Jerry chap do learn more mussar is not a thorough, sourced, bullet point response). Until then, don't bother responding.
I don't know why you even bother to try and answer this BANdana. He waits around all day to spit out his stupidity with nothing intelligent or coherent in his rantings.
I truly don't understand why NS does not block him. I am on board with NS and so are many of my frum Friends in the our Monsey circle. I enjoy his arguments and really appreciate how he composes his articles with his clear thinking, building out the points he makes.
I accept debate and argument trying to see other viewpoint or how they answer, and many times I am impressed by their arguments. Sometimes I don't exactly agree with NS. However when you get a BANdana hogging the site with his ridiculous arguments, it takes away from the entire Blog. When looking further to the comments, many times I don't even want to go there, and some in our circle never go there for this exact reason. We send to each other comments when one thinks NS composed it really well.
Keeping such people on the site, does more harm then good. It keeps others, who would like to go have a look at the comments section, think why click further- those nuts are only at it, bashing NS and everything intelligent. I find myself going less and less to the comment section. I also hardly contribute, why get mixed up in mud. By the way I use my real name and don't hide (like a rat) behind who I am - I live in Forshey in Monsey and daven in Harav Chaim Leibish Rottensberg chassidish Shul.
The only good thing it does - is a Gimilas Chesed to the guys like BANdana, as now he has opportunity to spice up his boring life, and he feels good he can spew his stupidity and antagonism. I imagine he wakes up every morning to see what is new with NS and then his day just got that much brighter. So I guess keeping him on does some good. Unfortunately it keeps others away.
Things that need to be said need to be said, I guess.
I don't know why you ask for bullet points, I never once saw you responding in bullet points, you are just bizzare. The rest of your silly comment is not worth responding to, I already responded to Slifkin's stupidity just fine.
You didn't get it the last 300x, why would you get it now? You need to learn more mussar and machshava seforim. That's all.
And why would I respond to all the stuff misinformed side points when the root of it all is that you just need to learn more about how and why we appreciate torah
You don’t appreciate Torah you appreciate the so called benefits you get with Torah. Govt financial support and freedom from draft. You used the Torah as a spade to dig with and now it’s time to pay the cost of your actions.
I was thinking of suggesting that Yeshivas that relocate to otef Gaza could continue to be exempt from the draft on the condition that they have no IDF security protection and no Iron Dome coverage
Right now the northern border is more dangerous, they should relocate there.
That's rather in poor taste.
When Grodno yeshiva relocated to Beit Shemesh, they explicitly claimed that they were providing an "Iron Dome" for Beit Shemesh.
But they didn't relocate to Gaza because that would be a מקום סכנה. But certainly their presence in Beit Shemesh protects from the Palestinians in Gaza! Thank G-d for them!
And would their Torah have protected the Jews of Netivot or Sderot, as it allegedly did for Beit Shemesh? If yes, why didn't they stay? Soldiers go where they are needed!
They are not soldiers. But they protect the country every bit as much as soldiers. It's not hard to understand.
Now you're backing down. Earlier you claimed that they DID protect Bet Shemesh by being there. Are you making it up as you go along?
But not Benei Berak from rats. Nor Beiter during a time of alert - more security is demanded. And COVID ran rampant through yeshivos, no protection there.
Very selective this 'torah protects' business is.
It's like the old joke about losing your keys in one area, then going to look for them in another area because the light is better there, yeah.
So why don't they want to protect Netivot or Sderot?
Truly it has been said that the modern existence of charedism is owed, ironically, to postwar liberalism (ironically because charedism is in theory opposed to liberalism), in at least two ways:
1. Acceptance of different lifestyles, multiculturalism, etc. makes it much easier to live as a charedi, much more so than in a world where people are urged to conform, in various ways, as much as possible; and
2. Governments throwing around money like drunken sailors, subsidizing non-working people, etc. means that charedim can naturally benefit as well, even more so if they apply their Yiddishe cups to this.
(I am proud to say that as someone who is generally negative about acceptance, multiculturalism, the welfare state, and out of control spending, I am not being hypocritical when I don't approve of their application to charedim. Charedim, of course, are supremely hypocritical here, I hope I don't have to spell it out.)
Anyway, to this we can add another feature of the current age: The belief that such spending is a force of nature, not to be interfered with. I remember the scandal when Rush Limbaugh exposed the concept of "baseline budgeting," which means that there is an assumption that spending will always go up, so a "cut" is really a raise, just not as much. Spending never goes down. We can also recall the Alaska congressman (a Republican, for the record: this is not a partisan problem) who, when some pet project of his was cut, went to the floor of the house and began screaming about how it was "MY MONEY! MYYYYY MONEY!" Of course, it was no such thing, but modern thought is that...it is. (And Israel, of course, has the same earmark issue in the form of "party funds.")
So when the UTJ people scream, they are, perhaps unknowingly, reflecting and even being influenced by this way of thinking. The government has given them money- money which, of course, was taken from other people by (as all laws are) implied threat of violence and even death, and thus it is *their* money and always must be.
And before the chuckleheads here start carrying on about the HaBima theater or universities or whatever: First, I don't think they should be getting tax money either. But even if I thought they *did*, that is apples and oranges in far more ways than one. I'll let other people say how so.
exactly. the brilliance of charedisim is that it is a proundly anti-liberal movement that exists only by the good graces of th eliberal welfare state.
That's what you guys like to tell yourself, but chareidim do much better economically in the much reduced welfare state of the US than they do in the massive welfare state of Israel. Demonstrating the opposite, that chareidim can thrive better when they are left alone.
That is exactly my point. The sort of extreme litvish charediism found in Israel could never have emerged in the US. Only a in country that not only has a massive welfare state, but is liberal enought willing to allow and support educational institutions that reject all government supervision, basic general education and indocrinate the students to be unpatrotic citizens, could Isralei charedism possible survive to get large enough to threaten the very State on which they are dependant. In America Charedim are force to get educations and work- and as result devoloped a charediism is far more moderate and acceptable to other Jews and citizens than Israeli charedism.
Not really. Americans chareidim are far, far closer to Israeli chareidim in both hashkafa and practice than they are to the Modox. There is a reason why American chareidim mix go to Brisk and Mir and not Gush. The sort of "extreme litvish chareidism" can only be found in a dysfunctional country where you have to serve in the army in order to legally work. Stop threatening to draft chareidim every couple of months and things would change.
"Americans chareidim are far, far closer to Israeli chareidim in both hashkafa and practice than they are to the Modox"
Another gem. Complete irrelevant answer to his point. His point is 100% correct, American chareidim is far more moderate than the Israeli version. That's just an objective fact. They get education and work, and in many many cases are far more broad minded (its all relative of course).
The fact that they are not closer to the modox is completely irrelevant to that point. Of course, you know my view, once you strip away the garb and more 'religious appearance', the line between a moderate charedi (whose been out the echo-chamber for say a decade) and serious modox chap is virtually non-existant.
Not really more moderate. The so called "extremism" is most likely a result of the dysfunctional Israeli system.
No they aren't. Almost all charedim in the US work and many have university degrees.
You probably have no idea what "chareidi" means. You probably think a YU guy is chareidi.
Nice to see you want Israel to adopt the US model. The charedim will have to get jobs, and to do national service if they don't join the military.
National service is a joke. It's just a way of trying to punish people who avoid the military.
In your world, the default is anti-religious. Only with liberalism can people live against the default.
This is just your world. Torah Jews wish for a world in which Hashem's honor is supreme, and there is no need for tolerance for a person to follow the Torah proudly.
The tolerance is 'the hospital under the bridge', not the solution to the problem
Like it or not, the world is what it is.
Jabotinsky proposed an even more expansive welfare state than the liberals or socialists did. And the first welfare state was created in Germany by Bismarck, not the liberals or socialists.
Rush Limbaugh was a rasha.
Rush Limbaugh was my Rebbi. He taught me the value of working for a living and not living off the welfare state. Thanks to him, I had the courage to leave Kollel and join the workforce to support my family. I am forever indebted to my true Rebbi, Rush Limbaugh.
I imagine you never listened to Rush Limbaugh once. Nor know much about him.
The rest of your points make no difference. I'm not a fan of Bismarck, and just because Jabotinsky thought something was a good idea doesn't mean I have to march in lockstep with it.
Jabotinsky died before WWII broke out. While he had the foresight to see that disaster was coming for the Jews of Europe, he did not predict the failure of socialist economics. But nobody ever claimed that the Revisionists had the gift of prophecy.
Wrong. He died in the summer of 1940. Nearly a year after war broke out.
I was lazy about looking it up.
UTJ chairman Yitzhak Goldknopf declared that “the order given by the judges of the High Court of Justice, whose purpose is to seriously harm the Torah and Jewish people (!), here in the Land of Israel – the state of the Jewish people – is a sign of disgrace and contempt… The State of Israel arose to be a home for the Jewish people whose Torah is a Torah of truth… Without the Torah, we have no right to exist.”
Wait, so does that mean that the State of Israel is a good thing for Haredim and they support it now?
Ger has a more positive attitude to the state of Israel than most other chassidus. That doesn't mean they worship the state like religious Zionists do.
I know a lot of Zionists, but none of them worship the state.
I worship HaShem. I pray to HaShem for the welfare of the State of Israel and for the success of the IDF. So do all the other religious Zionists I know. Please cite an example of one who worships the state rather than HaShem.
I'm glad you pay lip service to Hashem. That's better than nothing.
On what basis do you claim that her tefilot to Hashem are insincere?
I didn't know Charles B Hall was female, but I suppose with gender reassignment surgery, anything is possible. On what basis do I claim her tefilos are insincere? Didn't you claim people's beliefs are insincere if "they are not willing to stake anything at all on their purported belief"? You said it!
Any yeshiva closing for Bein haZmanim in wartime, even if it only empties out for first and last days of Pesach, cannot claim they really believe they are necessary. Could you picture if Tzahal let the vast majority of those deployed go home for a day of Yom Tov all at once? (Please don't really try to imagine the results, I don't mean to depress anyone.)
The CR, R David Lau, called for extra learning bein hazmanim -- but isn't that like sending the soldiers home telling them to keep an eye open while walking their neighborhoods? How do you decrease the Torah study at all if you really believed -- not just in your brain but in your gut -- that it helps keep the country safe? How do you lose the advantage of the context.
So you are saying Bain Hazmanim is like sending thousands of reservists home?
More like thousands of reservists deciding on their own to go home.
... While they also are claiming the day before and the day after their vacation that they are the backbone of the defense.
If you really believe that, you don't go home.
Deciding on their own? Or the "generals" deciding for them. I think bain hazmanim is excessive and I hope they significantly shorten it this year, but some is definitely necessary. But I don't understand the point of this if you already made up your mind that Torah doesn't protect.
Charedi leadership response is as expected, but a rational thinker wouldn't celebrate chaos and polarization of society in the middle of a losing war against Hamas and a possible full scale war with Hizbollah. Charedim cannot be forced to serve, they will not show up for the draft in August.
The voice of reason has unsurprisingly lost again.
Chaos how? What can charedim do, refuse to serve?
And of course the responsibility lies on those causing the trouble and/or blackmailing.
Let the situation develop and we'll see how.
I've seen how. I'm happy I have a train to take to commute now instead of the bus, because crazy charedim would block the roads (ironically making the buses go through charedi neighborhoods) and make me get home hours late. Torah values!
They may block the trains also. Chilonim and DL block traffic and close roads when protesting. These are democratic values, mate. Are you against democracy now?
There's no way they're getting close to the trains. If you were familiar with them, you'd know.
I am on the record, for a long, long time, as being opposed to anyone blocking any road for any reason. As someone who lives on a road that is blocked by protesters almost every day, some of whom once beat me and sent me to the hospital, trust me, I am opposed. Blocking roads is not "democracy." And even if it was, freedom to do something does not mean it *should* be done.
A few weeks ago protesters blocked the Light Rail in Petach Tikva.
Well, democracy is fraud, chaos and disintegration of society. But blocking roads is a common tactic used by angry demonstrators. Not much that this system can do about it. Chilonim are blocking roads and rioting in Tel Aviv right now. The political system is inadequate to deal with challenges that are facing the country. Nothing can be done about it.
Your excitement and glee is contagious!
Everyone, just remember, the author of this article is a bar plugta of Rashi! Don't take his word lightly!
(Somehow, all the same people alive today who are on Rashi's level are happy to see this reduction of torah learning. I guess we should rethink our position, us small minded Charedim who don't come close to fathoming the greatness of the gr'a, let alone Rashi. We, who bow our heads in deference to the likes of the bach and maharshal and thousands of other greats who accepted the Zohar, somehow find ourselves on this side of the aisle regarding the gravity of this move.
Oh right, because we all drank the cool-aid and can't think past our noses, unlike these enlightened folks who know so much better!)
I would personally be delighted to see a reduction in the type of Torah which perpetuates the heinous philosophy of the charedim. Time to learn the whole Torah, not just cherry pick the bits that support your narcissism.
You support the "type of torah" that excludes the Zohar, correct? The one that cherry picks only the parts that feel "rational," eh?
What on earth does the Zohar and rationalism have to do with this? I'm pretty sure that most of the chardalim who want charedim to serve in the army believe in the Zohar, and many are mystically-inclined.
It says everything about your attitude and (perhaps unintended) hubris towards people who are much bigger than you.
“Bigger” how? And who are you to judge?
That the gr'a was "bigger" than Rabbi Dr Natan Slifkin isn't a controversial statement
To borrow Irit Linur's statement about Yair Lapid - "You don't have to be the Gra to be more intelligent than ......."
Indeed. The rationalist believes that only by withdrawing from life can one reach spiritual levels, whereas the mystic believes that mundane activities (such as army service to defeat our enemies) carry within sparks of Holiness.
??? Um, not really.
I don't "support Torah" it's not weak, it doesn't need supporting. I learn it to see what it has to teach me that I didn't know before.
Indeed, the Zohar is a later text ascribed to Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai. A basic linguistic analysis confirms this. The challenge lies in post-Biblical Judaism, where there's no established method to question the teachings of ancient pious rabbis with long beards. :-)
"A basic linguistic analysis conforms this"
Ever see Gershon Shulems 18 proofs that it was not Rashbi but Moses D'elon himself that wrote it. This is not to argue it does not have the validity of any other Kabbalistic work - but who is the real author?
And what about the bible itself? They shouldn't be trusted about that either!
Jews have never been biblical literalists.
I sometimes have fun with Christians when I point out that they don't even understand the pshat of what they call the Old Testament, much less exegesis.
Yeah but how do we know it came from God??
R.C.Sofer said that the Zohar was three quarters not authentic.R.S.R. Hirsch rejected it and so did R. Y. Emden
Rambam says that anyone who accepts money for Torah study is "desecrating God's name, mocking the Torah, extinguishing the light of religion, harming themselves, and removing themselves from the world to come". I too would be excited and gleeful if these things were to end.
That's not an unfair point
Edit - to be clear: We don't pasken like the Rambam but if that's your problem, we're just arguing about psak with no hatred. I'm fine with that.
Why don't you deal with the point? Here - not links to often rambling or not relevant comments elsewhere. Give some clear bullet point responses to the discrepancies Natan flags. Without irrelevant references to rashi, zohar, maharshal and bach.
The fact that you don't just gives ammunition to those whi claim "because we all drank the cool-aid and can't think past our noses".
Which points?
Have you actually read the post slowly and carefully?
That says that we're ridiculous and absurd? Yes
And why does he think that and what are your explanations why it is not ridiculous and absurd behaviour? Because it sure seems ridiculous and absurd to any thinking person.
Not if torah actually is as important as Chareidim think.
Answer the question! Who are you? Argument doesn't answer anything.
Which question do you want me to answer? Why we care when others try to inhibit our learning?
And Hashem is writing this comment to you, telling you that you have no idea what you are talking about, conflating political speech with a Charedi position.
Wouldn't the counter argument be that they must do their hishtadlus? They need to fight for their rights but they will ultimately accept it?
Not if the "fighting" means leaving their learning to go to demonstrations. In that case it's not hishtadlus, it shows a lack of bitachon in their learning to protect their parnassah.
I think R' Slifkin's critique is of the rhetoric, where hishtadlus irrelevant
This is an interesting development but if the financial repercussions are limited to Yeshiva stipends, I am skeptical it will have much, if any, effect. I would think yeshivas will simply increase donor fundraising to substitute for lost government funds. Proper financial incentivization would probably have to be quite a bit broader.
Please don't blame R Dessler and Michtav meiEliyahu... The belief in an inverse relationship between bitachon and needing hishtadlus predates him. For example, I just finished a short daily seder in Qunterus haBitachon by the Beis haLevi (R Yosef Dov haLevi Soloveitchik I), and the concept is one of the booklet's central themes! Even concludes saying that "adam la'amal yulad -- man was born to toil" but you have a choice between toiling in hishtadlus to make your money or toiling in learning. Choose to develop bitachon, so that you can do the latter. Even invokes "anu mashkimin veheim mashkimin... - we arise and they arise... we arise to get payment, and they arise without getting payment". (Yes, the BhL takes "sekhar" here to refer to payment, not or not only spiritual reward.)
It is a patent ruse to bring down the right wing government, with the idea that it will cause the chareidi parties to leave the coalition, and thereby force new elections - which the left wing inanely believes will return them to power.
any time anyone opposes anything in the Government, people say- this is just an effort ot bring down the government. some basic knowledge of public opinion shows the absurdity of these arguments
If the chareidi parties were to leave the coalition and there were new elections, it is a known fact that all the parties crying about chareidiim "sharing the burden" will be prepared to give the chareidim ten times as much as they get now - in exchange for joining a coalition with them and bringing them into power.
Well, having "some basic knowledge of public opinion" I know that public opinion in Israel is very much in favor of a right wing government (remember, they got elected time after time?) and the left is desperately trying to find a weak link to bring it down, believing that the weak link is the chareidi parties.
First you are wrong about current public opinion. It appears to favor a center right government at best. Second Israeli public opinion overwhelmingly opposes chareid draft exemptions. Third, there are alot of people who want Bibi out but, dont want elections untill the war is over. The idea that the weakest link the entire Israeli political specture the "left" is driving thing and manipulating evrryone else, is pure conspiracy theory. The Charedim are not the weak link, they are the only members of the government who place their own needs above national security. Many many people hope that the charedim will leave and Likud will be able to form a new government with out them, avoiding elections.