"First of all, and most crucially, note that this is a Midrash. It’s not a halachic source. You won’t find any passuk, any halachic source in Chazal, any halachic source in Rambam declaring that every soldier must have a corresponding “spiritual protector.”
There is definitely no halachic source that everybody must serve in the army.
"The sources that speak about protection are either ambiguous, limited, or non-halachic...",
"..and are irrelevant in light of the halachic sources that explicitly require everyone, including Torah students and even Torah scholars, to share an equal obligation."
There is no halachic source that require everyone to share an equal obligation. Just because you call yourself "rabbi" doesn't give you a right to make up your own halachos. Even real rabbis can't make up their own halachos!
"..(And which indicate that those who disregard such a religious obligation are not going to be a source of merit for the nation.)"
Again, no such thing, except the most boorish amaratzus.
"The real reason for charedi avoidance of army service is, of course, nothing to do with a belief that their Torah study is crucial to Israel’s defense. Rather, it’s that keeping charedim out of the IDF is crucial to them. "
And the real reason why Zionists want chareidim to serve has nothing to do with Israel's defense, but because they want to keep the secular character of the State. This has been admitted countless times by countless people.
This cherry picking of sources to reach an agenda was one of the first things I noticed was serously wrong when I left yeshiva/kollel after 20 years of full time learning and became a lawyer.
Our poskim, midroshim, shu't etc are full of tens of thousands of opinions on everything (I'm talking all mainstream poskim) Yet Yeshivaland will always zoom in on the chumrohs in everything.
But for those living in the echo chamber they just can't see it.
In the seventies and eighties there were numerous 'yeshivish' ba'alei battim, typically professionals, during their miluim who every evening changed out of uniform, into a white shirt, suit and hat and spent the evenings learning, davening whatever. And in the morning back to their bases in uniform. Bayit v'gan was full of them
It seems ridiculous to keep arguing over this. The charedim simply DON'T want to go - let the others do the burden of service, and risk their live. Nothing to do with learning , it is just a smoke screen for them, to lead a safer, easier, more comfortable life.
There are tens of thousands of seforim written, with millions and million of sayings etc. that if I want to find something - all I have to do is just look harder.
Mishachistem wants to find that Moshiach has to die first...they can find it. Name any sin and I can find a saying that he losses his Olam Haba and never gets go into Gan Eden. Name any mitzvah and I can find you a saying that this particular mitzvah saves the entire world. So they will find another saying to get out of the burden to serve. I can direct you many "Loshen Hora" books that bring "sayings" that not talking loshen hora is the biggest merit or the Jewish people. Now if I promise not to speak loshen hora - am I EXEMPT from the army . What don't we understand?
Do you think your explaining it logically and reasonable will help?
IMO, the whole argument about how many soldiers are needed, is flawed.
Let's say the IDF needed only 10k soldiers. Why should this be comprised solely of Chardal, DL, and Chilonim? Why should not a single Charedi risk their lives as their brothers do?
"Rather, it’s that keeping charedim out of the IDF is crucial to them. This is the first reason that Rabbi Shafran mentions: the threat to their religious way of life that Haredim see in entering military service."
True, but as always, I mention that the *real* underlying reason- which is the same as the real underlying reason for almost all specifically charedi beliefs- is that Zionism did not come from "unzerer," and so they never made peace with it. Why serve in the military of a state that you've never really accepted as legitimate?
Yes, the midrashization of Judaism and the imposition of mystical beliefs, repeatedly refuted empirically, is a significant problem. Imagine how modern science would appear if we had to believe everything written by and believed by ancient shamans and alchemists because of אם ראשונים בני מלאכים and כל המהרהר אחר רבו, etc.
Very simple solution. Israeli passport holders can now enter the US without a visa, thanks to the Biden Administration. The charedim just fly to the US. They can overstay their tourist visas and become illegal immigrants. Or, they apply for political asylum and become legal temporary residents; at the current pace of processing asylum applicants, they will be here for years. Best of all, in either case they are forbidden from working!
I have been thinking about the Torah Brigade idea. It seems to be a brilliant idea that can solve all problems. However, as rationalists we must first understand what is the rationality of it. I don't think the reasons you gave are rational. The one about geography certainly isn't (see here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/my-idf-plan-the-netziv/comment/52522172), and the idea that soldiers should draw moral support from putting more people at risk unnecessarily seems anti-rational.
Rather, the explanation must be that the Talmidei Chachamim are there to be a Chavrusa for the soldiers in every spare moment. The Netsiv references the Gemara (מגילה ג,א וע"ש ברש"י ד"ה ועכשיו) which states that every spare moment of a soldier ahould be dedicated to studying Torah. What better way to accomplish this than having a Talmid Chacham available constantly to study with him.
A rationalist may argue that in an age of phones and internet it is unneccesssary for the Talmidei Chachamim to actually be there, as they can study remotely. However, this is debatable.
What is clear is that such an arrangement would transform the army, help the Chareidim fill an essential role, and probably would eventually assure Chareidim that the army can be extension of the yeshiva.
I wonder if you can discuss with the army if such a thing is possible.
“…This is actually a great example of how people assume that sources unequivocally say something, when in fact they do no such thing…”
“…Finally, did you notice how Rabbi Shafran misquoted it? He claims that the Midrash describes 1000 from each tribe “for Torah study and prayer.” But the Midrash actually only speaks about prayer and mentions nothing whatsoever about Torah study!…”
Aren’t you disturbed by the ease by which “Torah”, Mishna, “Chazal”, etc. are so adeptly contrived and manipulated to make their judgement fit their desired frame-of-mind?
The entire debate falls into an unfalsifiabile paradigm with little precise evidence to justify their argument.
", the Sifrei - cited by Rashi - which expounds the verse to mean that the tribe of Levi were equally included in the draft! "
Oh boy, here we go again! Doesn't the גר"א emend the text, replacing "include" with "exclude"? And even if we accept the traditionally received text, wasn't מלחמת מדין a special case, and it would follow that the ספרי had to specify the inclusion of לויים in this special war, because לויים would otherwise be excluded? And according to the גר"א, it would mean that the ספרי had to specify the exclusion of לויים in this special war, because לויים would otherwise be included? Or perhaps the ספרי is providing the inclusion/exclusion as a model for other wars? (I saw in the name of RCK that מלחמת מדין was neither a מלחמת רשות or a מלחמת מצוה)
Summary: The ספרי is a not a conclusive proof text for any position in the controversy.
The ספרי and the מדרש cited by AS are just more sources which affirms the high value of Torah study, which are presented by some as an unambiguous slam-dunk argument against Charedim serving in a מלחמת מצוה. Upon closer inspection, the exact parameters and limitations (if they exist) of its application to the draft controversy is far from conclusive.
I am by no means a Torah scholar, so I take the Word at both face value and according to commentaries from a variety of viewpoints. But this stands out to me, in regard to army service in Israel: "“Shall your brothers go to war while you sit here?” (Bamidbar 32:6)." Also, I have an anecdote from personal experience that might be relevant. I know a family of Charedim whose sons have never served in the IDF. Not too long ago, one of the sons was going home after Yeshiva. He was wounded by a terrorist while waiting for the bus. There is no guarantee that soldiers will be wounded, and no guarantee that Yeshiva will save a person. It is all up to HaShem, so to consider these words of Torah might be the most relevant answer to this discusson.
"The sources that speak about protection... are irrelevant in light of the halachic sources that explicitly require everyone, including Torah students and even Torah scholars, to share an equal obligation."
If you mean לא תעמוד - The obligation is to not ignore a life-saving opportunity. There is no obligation for everyone to put themselves in a situation where they can save someone.
If you mean מלחמת מצוה - Charedim have their sources why it's not one and you can't force them to accept your halachic sources over theirs.
A few distortions:
"First of all, and most crucially, note that this is a Midrash. It’s not a halachic source. You won’t find any passuk, any halachic source in Chazal, any halachic source in Rambam declaring that every soldier must have a corresponding “spiritual protector.”
There is definitely no halachic source that everybody must serve in the army.
"The sources that speak about protection are either ambiguous, limited, or non-halachic...",
The sources are not ambiguous or limited, but very clear: https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
"..and are irrelevant in light of the halachic sources that explicitly require everyone, including Torah students and even Torah scholars, to share an equal obligation."
There is no halachic source that require everyone to share an equal obligation. Just because you call yourself "rabbi" doesn't give you a right to make up your own halachos. Even real rabbis can't make up their own halachos!
"..(And which indicate that those who disregard such a religious obligation are not going to be a source of merit for the nation.)"
Again, no such thing, except the most boorish amaratzus.
"The real reason for charedi avoidance of army service is, of course, nothing to do with a belief that their Torah study is crucial to Israel’s defense. Rather, it’s that keeping charedim out of the IDF is crucial to them. "
And the real reason why Zionists want chareidim to serve has nothing to do with Israel's defense, but because they want to keep the secular character of the State. This has been admitted countless times by countless people.
This cherry picking of sources to reach an agenda was one of the first things I noticed was serously wrong when I left yeshiva/kollel after 20 years of full time learning and became a lawyer.
Our poskim, midroshim, shu't etc are full of tens of thousands of opinions on everything (I'm talking all mainstream poskim) Yet Yeshivaland will always zoom in on the chumrohs in everything.
But for those living in the echo chamber they just can't see it.
In the seventies and eighties there were numerous 'yeshivish' ba'alei battim, typically professionals, during their miluim who every evening changed out of uniform, into a white shirt, suit and hat and spent the evenings learning, davening whatever. And in the morning back to their bases in uniform. Bayit v'gan was full of them
They managed not to lose their faith.
It seems ridiculous to keep arguing over this. The charedim simply DON'T want to go - let the others do the burden of service, and risk their live. Nothing to do with learning , it is just a smoke screen for them, to lead a safer, easier, more comfortable life.
There are tens of thousands of seforim written, with millions and million of sayings etc. that if I want to find something - all I have to do is just look harder.
Mishachistem wants to find that Moshiach has to die first...they can find it. Name any sin and I can find a saying that he losses his Olam Haba and never gets go into Gan Eden. Name any mitzvah and I can find you a saying that this particular mitzvah saves the entire world. So they will find another saying to get out of the burden to serve. I can direct you many "Loshen Hora" books that bring "sayings" that not talking loshen hora is the biggest merit or the Jewish people. Now if I promise not to speak loshen hora - am I EXEMPT from the army . What don't we understand?
Do you think your explaining it logically and reasonable will help?
Regarding the question of how to win this war, I highly recommend this essay from someone who is decidedly not Chareidi- even anti-Chareidi.
https://parshawithchana.substack.com/p/that-the-whole-earth-may-know-there?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=511262&post_id=142961697&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2gnvj6&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
What do the charedim do with the unmistakable historical facts that charedim DID serve in the IDF when it was needed of them in the first wars.
And that there were charedi partisans during ww2 (in far far worse conditions than the IDF)
There are ways to keep Torah and fight for Israel--what if all Israel was charedi?
You cant justify not even doing community service to relive those who must fight.
There is a solution aside from not participating at all -- you should be looking for that rather than justifications.
IMO, the whole argument about how many soldiers are needed, is flawed.
Let's say the IDF needed only 10k soldiers. Why should this be comprised solely of Chardal, DL, and Chilonim? Why should not a single Charedi risk their lives as their brothers do?
"Rather, it’s that keeping charedim out of the IDF is crucial to them. This is the first reason that Rabbi Shafran mentions: the threat to their religious way of life that Haredim see in entering military service."
True, but as always, I mention that the *real* underlying reason- which is the same as the real underlying reason for almost all specifically charedi beliefs- is that Zionism did not come from "unzerer," and so they never made peace with it. Why serve in the military of a state that you've never really accepted as legitimate?
Yes, the midrashization of Judaism and the imposition of mystical beliefs, repeatedly refuted empirically, is a significant problem. Imagine how modern science would appear if we had to believe everything written by and believed by ancient shamans and alchemists because of אם ראשונים בני מלאכים and כל המהרהר אחר רבו, etc.
Very simple solution. Israeli passport holders can now enter the US without a visa, thanks to the Biden Administration. The charedim just fly to the US. They can overstay their tourist visas and become illegal immigrants. Or, they apply for political asylum and become legal temporary residents; at the current pace of processing asylum applicants, they will be here for years. Best of all, in either case they are forbidden from working!
I have been thinking about the Torah Brigade idea. It seems to be a brilliant idea that can solve all problems. However, as rationalists we must first understand what is the rationality of it. I don't think the reasons you gave are rational. The one about geography certainly isn't (see here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/my-idf-plan-the-netziv/comment/52522172), and the idea that soldiers should draw moral support from putting more people at risk unnecessarily seems anti-rational.
Rather, the explanation must be that the Talmidei Chachamim are there to be a Chavrusa for the soldiers in every spare moment. The Netsiv references the Gemara (מגילה ג,א וע"ש ברש"י ד"ה ועכשיו) which states that every spare moment of a soldier ahould be dedicated to studying Torah. What better way to accomplish this than having a Talmid Chacham available constantly to study with him.
A rationalist may argue that in an age of phones and internet it is unneccesssary for the Talmidei Chachamim to actually be there, as they can study remotely. However, this is debatable.
What is clear is that such an arrangement would transform the army, help the Chareidim fill an essential role, and probably would eventually assure Chareidim that the army can be extension of the yeshiva.
I wonder if you can discuss with the army if such a thing is possible.
Rav Slifkin,
“…This is actually a great example of how people assume that sources unequivocally say something, when in fact they do no such thing…”
“…Finally, did you notice how Rabbi Shafran misquoted it? He claims that the Midrash describes 1000 from each tribe “for Torah study and prayer.” But the Midrash actually only speaks about prayer and mentions nothing whatsoever about Torah study!…”
Aren’t you disturbed by the ease by which “Torah”, Mishna, “Chazal”, etc. are so adeptly contrived and manipulated to make their judgement fit their desired frame-of-mind?
The entire debate falls into an unfalsifiabile paradigm with little precise evidence to justify their argument.
", the Sifrei - cited by Rashi - which expounds the verse to mean that the tribe of Levi were equally included in the draft! "
Oh boy, here we go again! Doesn't the גר"א emend the text, replacing "include" with "exclude"? And even if we accept the traditionally received text, wasn't מלחמת מדין a special case, and it would follow that the ספרי had to specify the inclusion of לויים in this special war, because לויים would otherwise be excluded? And according to the גר"א, it would mean that the ספרי had to specify the exclusion of לויים in this special war, because לויים would otherwise be included? Or perhaps the ספרי is providing the inclusion/exclusion as a model for other wars? (I saw in the name of RCK that מלחמת מדין was neither a מלחמת רשות or a מלחמת מצוה)
Summary: The ספרי is a not a conclusive proof text for any position in the controversy.
The ספרי and the מדרש cited by AS are just more sources which affirms the high value of Torah study, which are presented by some as an unambiguous slam-dunk argument against Charedim serving in a מלחמת מצוה. Upon closer inspection, the exact parameters and limitations (if they exist) of its application to the draft controversy is far from conclusive.
I am by no means a Torah scholar, so I take the Word at both face value and according to commentaries from a variety of viewpoints. But this stands out to me, in regard to army service in Israel: "“Shall your brothers go to war while you sit here?” (Bamidbar 32:6)." Also, I have an anecdote from personal experience that might be relevant. I know a family of Charedim whose sons have never served in the IDF. Not too long ago, one of the sons was going home after Yeshiva. He was wounded by a terrorist while waiting for the bus. There is no guarantee that soldiers will be wounded, and no guarantee that Yeshiva will save a person. It is all up to HaShem, so to consider these words of Torah might be the most relevant answer to this discusson.
"The sources that speak about protection... are irrelevant in light of the halachic sources that explicitly require everyone, including Torah students and even Torah scholars, to share an equal obligation."
If you mean לא תעמוד - The obligation is to not ignore a life-saving opportunity. There is no obligation for everyone to put themselves in a situation where they can save someone.
If you mean מלחמת מצוה - Charedim have their sources why it's not one and you can't force them to accept your halachic sources over theirs.