"First of all, and most crucially, note that this is a Midrash. It’s not a halachic source. You won’t find any passuk, any halachic source in Chazal, any halachic source in Rambam declaring that every soldier must have a corresponding “spiritual protector.”
There is definitely no halachic source that everybody must serve in the army.
"The sources that speak about protection are either ambiguous, limited, or non-halachic...",
"..and are irrelevant in light of the halachic sources that explicitly require everyone, including Torah students and even Torah scholars, to share an equal obligation."
There is no halachic source that require everyone to share an equal obligation. Just because you call yourself "rabbi" doesn't give you a right to make up your own halachos. Even real rabbis can't make up their own halachos!
"..(And which indicate that those who disregard such a religious obligation are not going to be a source of merit for the nation.)"
Again, no such thing, except the most boorish amaratzus.
"The real reason for charedi avoidance of army service is, of course, nothing to do with a belief that their Torah study is crucial to Israel’s defense. Rather, it’s that keeping charedim out of the IDF is crucial to them. "
And the real reason why Zionists want chareidim to serve has nothing to do with Israel's defense, but because they want to keep the secular character of the State. This has been admitted countless times by countless people.
I'll limit myself to responding just to your last claim. Of course there are SOME people who want charedim to serve in order to make them secular. But to claim that this is what motivates EVERYONE, including all the Chardal community, is just absurd. Did you watch Rav Granot's video?
The opposite. There are SOME people who want chareidim to serve because they think they are truly needed, or mistakenly think there is a Torah obligation for everybody to serve with no other considerations. But the VAST MAJORITY, like yourself, just want to destroy their chinuch system and secularize them. As admitted by them literally all the time.
It couldn't POSSIBLY be that I'm upset about my kids having to serve for additional months and years because charedim refuse? That couldn't possibly upset anyone? You're insane.
Anything is "possible". The question is what's likely. What's reasonable. And based on your record, and based on the fact that you express far, far, far more rage against chareidim than you express against Hamas and other Palestinians and Lebanese and Iranians for adding additional years and months to your kids service, I am quite confident I am right!
Not insane. Living in an echo-chamber. They cannot relate to the emotions of others. Emotion is hard to find in the yeshivish echo chamber these people live in, so they can't compute it.
It matters not what screwball metric you employ to preserve chareidi privilege to prevent uniting chareidim with secular/hesder soldiers in defense of their country. It’s obvious to any honorable citizen that chareidi refusal to defend the country with their lives is a pretext for cowardice. When this war comes to an end, even temporarily, chareidi society will see Chiloni anger manifest itself by putting an end to chareidi subsidies for their parasitical lifestyle. I hope you have a large net worth, because they’re going to be coming to you to fund the meager subsistsnce lives that they’re supposedly accustomed to. The days of chareidi parasitism in the name of corrupt Torah machinations are coming to an end. Just you wait.
These are are probably some new, scholarly arguments that I haven't encountered yet, and which I will need to carefully consider. But first I must decipher your advanced and erudite prose, which itself poses a considerable challenge.
Why are you so convinced that chareidim will be secularized if they join in mass? Maybe the secular will be chareidiized! Surely the truth will triumph!
I don't think you would be asking that if it was a question of your kids hanging out with a bunch of drug abusers, assuring you that don't worry dad, I won't let them influence me (or pick any of the other mosholim I discussed!) With the army, it's even worse. The people in positions of authority in the army are secular or secularist, and the army demands rigid adherence to authority as well as a spirit of camaraderie that you don't have in civilian life, so it is much more reasonable to assume that the chareidim would be secularized than the other way around. Not that every chareidi would be secularized, of course. I'm sure many would survive the trial and come out stronger.
This cherry picking of sources to reach an agenda was one of the first things I noticed was serously wrong when I left yeshiva/kollel after 20 years of full time learning and became a lawyer.
Our poskim, midroshim, shu't etc are full of tens of thousands of opinions on everything (I'm talking all mainstream poskim) Yet Yeshivaland will always zoom in on the chumrohs in everything.
But for those living in the echo chamber they just can't see it.
90% of thosr in the most yeshivish yeshivos and kollelim live in an echo-chamber. It's like any large unified social group. Very few want to be different and even consider thoughts and opinions from the outside. Human nature.
Yes yes test dear. You are the only normal one. Everybody else is crazy living in their echo chamber. You might be interested in a kindred spirit, the Timecube guy. Ever heard of him?
They simply live in a different world. A world were working on chol ha'moed is nearly as bad as working on Yom Kippur. They simply cannot comprehend accurately the world outside the beis hamedrash (other than as a source of money) and understand people that need to interact and live in the outside world and that impacts on their entire mode of thinking and all that goes with it. And as practically everybody they interact with is the same, they don't even have the keilim to see the issue.
That is why rabbonim of kehillos who do live in the outside world, and do interact with the world, have a very different view of the halachik process and all that goes with it than a typical kollel person. Halachik friction between the two groups is not uncommon, with many kollel people believing that those rabbonim are unduly meikel in many things ("It's a d'oreysah, how can you to be meikel" - you often here from kollel people). And when you point out to them they are also meikel in many things, d'oreysoh, like sirchos, they are a bit flummoxed.
20 years!?! you must have had some questions during that period of time? at least a few. if you learnt in kollel for 20 years you NEVER encountered any of the sources which reflected differently than the "echo chamber"?
In those 20-years I was in the echo chamber. Standard beliefs were ba'al habattim generally ignorant and kullah chasing. Ditto shul rabbonim (not generally ignorant, but too reliant on kulles than they should be for their congregants ). Mishnah Brurah reigned supreme (uless he had a kulloh, in which case the mesorah never seemed to be like that kullah). Other poskim similar (when they came it with a kulloh, it was generally downplayed). Other sources ranged from downright apikorsus to the mesorah is not like that to they are not from our beis hamedrash to the 'pesak is not like those sources' anyway. And anybody that knows those 'other sources' or asks to many 'why' questions on yeshivish practice was considered a bid dogy.
Once I left the echo-chamber, the nonsense and narishkeiten became clear. As did the hypocrisy - chareidim talk and discuss money (usually other's money) more than any other orthodox group. Dispite all the stuff about bitochon and how hashem will provide. I have married off my kids into a range of families - from highly yeshivisih to moderate yeshivish to can't be bothered with all the nonsense. Guess which group was most obsessed with the money side of things?
there's a story that the ktav sofer used to be the one to send out the chatam sofer's tshuvot. Once there was one that the ktav sofer didn't fully appreciate the logic f, so he didn't send it out right away. When the chatam sofer asked why, the ktav sofer said he didn't think the logic was strong enough. The chatam sofer said send it out, the logic may not be strong but the psak is correct (Heard from R H Schachter - not a direct transcription of what he said) I think this pretty much reflects discussions of the type had here. bsorot tovot
If you look at any mainstream shu't seforim from major poskim, there is always a balance, a healthy mix of pesak l'chumrah and l'kullah throghout their work.
Nowadays 99% of what you hear is a chumrah in something or other. Go figure.
Here is a version cited by Marc Shapiro in Chakirah: "One time R. Sofer offered his halakhic opinion and the questioner rejected it. R. Sofer was able to justify his position with difficulty. R. Sofer’s son, R. Abraham Samuel, was surprised at his father’s response, and commented that the questioner was correct. To this, R. Sofer replied that before he gave his halakhic answer he prayed to God that he give the proper response. R. Sofer was therefore certain that his answer was correct even as he acknowledged that his explanation of his ruling was not compelling. He added, however, that “one who can learn better than me” will be able to provide a better explanation."
I was just supplying a written version of the story. Not trying to infer meaning from it. Personally I don’t agree with the Chasam Sofer as presented in the story.
In the seventies and eighties there were numerous 'yeshivish' ba'alei battim, typically professionals, during their miluim who every evening changed out of uniform, into a white shirt, suit and hat and spent the evenings learning, davening whatever. And in the morning back to their bases in uniform. Bayit v'gan was full of them
Yes, as Ban(d)ana conceded. Apparently there is a high risk that chareidim will 'loose their faith' the first time circumstances dictate they need to put on tefillin at mincha rather than shacharis, due to enemy action. Or the first time they are 'compelled' to sing a 'patriotic Israeli song'. What remains unsaid is why they can't help and count or repair guns, at least helping in some other way. Maybe even that will cause them to 'lose their faith'.
Well yes. There are definitely individual chareidim that would be unharmed by army service, but mass conscription would be a recipe for disaster. Just like you wouldn't send your children to a school where even 5% of the teachers are child molesters, and there is only a small chance that anything would happen to your child. And here the chances are much worse, as we see from the so-called "religious" Zionist community.
Better is : "How are you going to keep them on the farm after they see the big city?" Secular life and people are likely to be more attractive to some 'talmidim' so don't expose them. Maybe they need their own Rumspringa before committing. Or we can say 'Lifnei evare lo tetane michshol".
If the chareidi community was more attractive and desirable, you wouldn't have to worry about deserters.
If you are arguing that 5% of the staff are child molester I don't understand how charedim send their children to all these yeshivas that don't do background checks on the staff they hire. According to a serious frum person who is involved in these things he claims that upwards of 25% of all boys are molested at least once. So lets not go there and use this as an argument.
Again! Are you conceding chareidi chinuch and background is no better than religious-zionist chinuch. A recipe for disaster! What exactly is it in the army that would cause this? Last time you wrote "patriotic songs'. You sticking with that?
Well that was before Gedolei Yisrael wrote approbations for DrRNS's books. Had RNS retracted his books, there wouldn't be the faith crisis you refer to and the army would be full of Charedim in the tradition of עדינו העצני.
It seems ridiculous to keep arguing over this. The charedim simply DON'T want to go - let the others do the burden of service, and risk their live. Nothing to do with learning , it is just a smoke screen for them, to lead a safer, easier, more comfortable life.
There are tens of thousands of seforim written, with millions and million of sayings etc. that if I want to find something - all I have to do is just look harder.
Mishachistem wants to find that Moshiach has to die first...they can find it. Name any sin and I can find a saying that he losses his Olam Haba and never gets go into Gan Eden. Name any mitzvah and I can find you a saying that this particular mitzvah saves the entire world. So they will find another saying to get out of the burden to serve. I can direct you many "Loshen Hora" books that bring "sayings" that not talking loshen hora is the biggest merit or the Jewish people. Now if I promise not to speak loshen hora - am I EXEMPT from the army . What don't we understand?
Do you think your explaining it logically and reasonable will help?
"What do the charedim do with the unmistakable historical facts that charedim DID serve in the IDF when it was needed of them in the first wars."
We learned our lesson. How many chareidim served anyways? You have no numbers, just empty assertions. I don't think anybody has numbers (not that I am doubting that some chareidim served, just like some do now).
Ask any Shoah survivor who fought the Nazis. You think they had Mehadrin food? They are what they scavenged and if was trief they ate it to survive. But you’re too delicate for anything but the finest hechsherim.
IMO, the whole argument about how many soldiers are needed, is flawed.
Let's say the IDF needed only 10k soldiers. Why should this be comprised solely of Chardal, DL, and Chilonim? Why should not a single Charedi risk their lives as their brothers do?
"Rather, it’s that keeping charedim out of the IDF is crucial to them. This is the first reason that Rabbi Shafran mentions: the threat to their religious way of life that Haredim see in entering military service."
True, but as always, I mention that the *real* underlying reason- which is the same as the real underlying reason for almost all specifically charedi beliefs- is that Zionism did not come from "unzerer," and so they never made peace with it. Why serve in the military of a state that you've never really accepted as legitimate?
Yes, the midrashization of Judaism and the imposition of mystical beliefs, repeatedly refuted empirically, is a significant problem. Imagine how modern science would appear if we had to believe everything written by and believed by ancient shamans and alchemists because of אם ראשונים בני מלאכים and כל המהרהר אחר רבו, etc.
I have been thinking about the Torah Brigade idea. It seems to be a brilliant idea that can solve all problems. However, as rationalists we must first understand what is the rationality of it. I don't think the reasons you gave are rational. The one about geography certainly isn't (see here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/my-idf-plan-the-netziv/comment/52522172), and the idea that soldiers should draw moral support from putting more people at risk unnecessarily seems anti-rational.
Rather, the explanation must be that the Talmidei Chachamim are there to be a Chavrusa for the soldiers in every spare moment. The Netsiv references the Gemara (מגילה ג,א וע"ש ברש"י ד"ה ועכשיו) which states that every spare moment of a soldier ahould be dedicated to studying Torah. What better way to accomplish this than having a Talmid Chacham available constantly to study with him.
A rationalist may argue that in an age of phones and internet it is unneccesssary for the Talmidei Chachamim to actually be there, as they can study remotely. However, this is debatable.
What is clear is that such an arrangement would transform the army, help the Chareidim fill an essential role, and probably would eventually assure Chareidim that the army can be extension of the yeshiva.
I wonder if you can discuss with the army if such a thing is possible.
“…This is actually a great example of how people assume that sources unequivocally say something, when in fact they do no such thing…”
“…Finally, did you notice how Rabbi Shafran misquoted it? He claims that the Midrash describes 1000 from each tribe “for Torah study and prayer.” But the Midrash actually only speaks about prayer and mentions nothing whatsoever about Torah study!…”
Aren’t you disturbed by the ease by which “Torah”, Mishna, “Chazal”, etc. are so adeptly contrived and manipulated to make their judgement fit their desired frame-of-mind?
The entire debate falls into an unfalsifiabile paradigm with little precise evidence to justify their argument.
", the Sifrei - cited by Rashi - which expounds the verse to mean that the tribe of Levi were equally included in the draft! "
Oh boy, here we go again! Doesn't the גר"א emend the text, replacing "include" with "exclude"? And even if we accept the traditionally received text, wasn't מלחמת מדין a special case, and it would follow that the ספרי had to specify the inclusion of לויים in this special war, because לויים would otherwise be excluded? And according to the גר"א, it would mean that the ספרי had to specify the exclusion of לויים in this special war, because לויים would otherwise be included? Or perhaps the ספרי is providing the inclusion/exclusion as a model for other wars? (I saw in the name of RCK that מלחמת מדין was neither a מלחמת רשות or a מלחמת מצוה)
Summary: The ספרי is a not a conclusive proof text for any position in the controversy.
The ספרי and the מדרש cited by AS are just more sources which affirms the high value of Torah study, which are presented by some as an unambiguous slam-dunk argument against Charedim serving in a מלחמת מצוה. Upon closer inspection, the exact parameters and limitations (if they exist) of its application to the draft controversy is far from conclusive.
Nearly every midrash represents the personal viewpoint of its author, loosely bolstered by references to the Tanach. It's akin to someone shooting an arrow and then drawing a target around it afterward.
I am by no means a Torah scholar, so I take the Word at both face value and according to commentaries from a variety of viewpoints. But this stands out to me, in regard to army service in Israel: "“Shall your brothers go to war while you sit here?” (Bamidbar 32:6)." Also, I have an anecdote from personal experience that might be relevant. I know a family of Charedim whose sons have never served in the IDF. Not too long ago, one of the sons was going home after Yeshiva. He was wounded by a terrorist while waiting for the bus. There is no guarantee that soldiers will be wounded, and no guarantee that Yeshiva will save a person. It is all up to HaShem, so to consider these words of Torah might be the most relevant answer to this discusson.
"The sources that speak about protection... are irrelevant in light of the halachic sources that explicitly require everyone, including Torah students and even Torah scholars, to share an equal obligation."
If you mean לא תעמוד - The obligation is to not ignore a life-saving opportunity. There is no obligation for everyone to put themselves in a situation where they can save someone.
If you mean מלחמת מצוה - Charedim have their sources why it's not one and you can't force them to accept your halachic sources over theirs.
A few distortions:
"First of all, and most crucially, note that this is a Midrash. It’s not a halachic source. You won’t find any passuk, any halachic source in Chazal, any halachic source in Rambam declaring that every soldier must have a corresponding “spiritual protector.”
There is definitely no halachic source that everybody must serve in the army.
"The sources that speak about protection are either ambiguous, limited, or non-halachic...",
The sources are not ambiguous or limited, but very clear: https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
"..and are irrelevant in light of the halachic sources that explicitly require everyone, including Torah students and even Torah scholars, to share an equal obligation."
There is no halachic source that require everyone to share an equal obligation. Just because you call yourself "rabbi" doesn't give you a right to make up your own halachos. Even real rabbis can't make up their own halachos!
"..(And which indicate that those who disregard such a religious obligation are not going to be a source of merit for the nation.)"
Again, no such thing, except the most boorish amaratzus.
"The real reason for charedi avoidance of army service is, of course, nothing to do with a belief that their Torah study is crucial to Israel’s defense. Rather, it’s that keeping charedim out of the IDF is crucial to them. "
And the real reason why Zionists want chareidim to serve has nothing to do with Israel's defense, but because they want to keep the secular character of the State. This has been admitted countless times by countless people.
I'll limit myself to responding just to your last claim. Of course there are SOME people who want charedim to serve in order to make them secular. But to claim that this is what motivates EVERYONE, including all the Chardal community, is just absurd. Did you watch Rav Granot's video?
The opposite. There are SOME people who want chareidim to serve because they think they are truly needed, or mistakenly think there is a Torah obligation for everybody to serve with no other considerations. But the VAST MAJORITY, like yourself, just want to destroy their chinuch system and secularize them. As admitted by them literally all the time.
It couldn't POSSIBLY be that I'm upset about my kids having to serve for additional months and years because charedim refuse? That couldn't possibly upset anyone? You're insane.
Anything is "possible". The question is what's likely. What's reasonable. And based on your record, and based on the fact that you express far, far, far more rage against chareidim than you express against Hamas and other Palestinians and Lebanese and Iranians for adding additional years and months to your kids service, I am quite confident I am right!
Not insane. Living in an echo-chamber. They cannot relate to the emotions of others. Emotion is hard to find in the yeshivish echo chamber these people live in, so they can't compute it.
" But the VAST MAJORITY, like yourself, just want to destroy their chinuch system and secularize them."
Please cite a poll to back up this claim.
"As admitted by them literally all the time."
Define "them". And cite the admission you refer to.
"Please cite a poll to back up this claim."
Why do I need poll? I'll just cite Ephraim! It's common knowledge! Nobody seriously denies it.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/my-idf-plan-the-netziv/comment/52560293
@BANdana,
It matters not what screwball metric you employ to preserve chareidi privilege to prevent uniting chareidim with secular/hesder soldiers in defense of their country. It’s obvious to any honorable citizen that chareidi refusal to defend the country with their lives is a pretext for cowardice. When this war comes to an end, even temporarily, chareidi society will see Chiloni anger manifest itself by putting an end to chareidi subsidies for their parasitical lifestyle. I hope you have a large net worth, because they’re going to be coming to you to fund the meager subsistsnce lives that they’re supposedly accustomed to. The days of chareidi parasitism in the name of corrupt Torah machinations are coming to an end. Just you wait.
Just you wsit!
These are are probably some new, scholarly arguments that I haven't encountered yet, and which I will need to carefully consider. But first I must decipher your advanced and erudite prose, which itself poses a considerable challenge.
Why are you so convinced that chareidim will be secularized if they join in mass? Maybe the secular will be chareidiized! Surely the truth will triumph!
I don't think you would be asking that if it was a question of your kids hanging out with a bunch of drug abusers, assuring you that don't worry dad, I won't let them influence me (or pick any of the other mosholim I discussed!) With the army, it's even worse. The people in positions of authority in the army are secular or secularist, and the army demands rigid adherence to authority as well as a spirit of camaraderie that you don't have in civilian life, so it is much more reasonable to assume that the chareidim would be secularized than the other way around. Not that every chareidi would be secularized, of course. I'm sure many would survive the trial and come out stronger.
Hey dear sir, good link! I would recommend these ones also!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/by-what-merit-do-we-succeed-in-battle
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/is-the-protection-of-torah-a-chareidi
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/hareidi-hasbara
Happy reading!
This cherry picking of sources to reach an agenda was one of the first things I noticed was serously wrong when I left yeshiva/kollel after 20 years of full time learning and became a lawyer.
Our poskim, midroshim, shu't etc are full of tens of thousands of opinions on everything (I'm talking all mainstream poskim) Yet Yeshivaland will always zoom in on the chumrohs in everything.
But for those living in the echo chamber they just can't see it.
Yup, everybody except you lives in an echo chamber! The guy in the straightjacket knows he's the only normal one, everybody else just can't see it!
90% of thosr in the most yeshivish yeshivos and kollelim live in an echo-chamber. It's like any large unified social group. Very few want to be different and even consider thoughts and opinions from the outside. Human nature.
Your insults don't change that.
Yes yes test dear. You are the only normal one. Everybody else is crazy living in their echo chamber. You might be interested in a kindred spirit, the Timecube guy. Ever heard of him?
Where did I say 'crazy'?
They simply live in a different world. A world were working on chol ha'moed is nearly as bad as working on Yom Kippur. They simply cannot comprehend accurately the world outside the beis hamedrash (other than as a source of money) and understand people that need to interact and live in the outside world and that impacts on their entire mode of thinking and all that goes with it. And as practically everybody they interact with is the same, they don't even have the keilim to see the issue.
That is why rabbonim of kehillos who do live in the outside world, and do interact with the world, have a very different view of the halachik process and all that goes with it than a typical kollel person. Halachik friction between the two groups is not uncommon, with many kollel people believing that those rabbonim are unduly meikel in many things ("It's a d'oreysah, how can you to be meikel" - you often here from kollel people). And when you point out to them they are also meikel in many things, d'oreysoh, like sirchos, they are a bit flummoxed.
20 years!?! you must have had some questions during that period of time? at least a few. if you learnt in kollel for 20 years you NEVER encountered any of the sources which reflected differently than the "echo chamber"?
In those 20-years I was in the echo chamber. Standard beliefs were ba'al habattim generally ignorant and kullah chasing. Ditto shul rabbonim (not generally ignorant, but too reliant on kulles than they should be for their congregants ). Mishnah Brurah reigned supreme (uless he had a kulloh, in which case the mesorah never seemed to be like that kullah). Other poskim similar (when they came it with a kulloh, it was generally downplayed). Other sources ranged from downright apikorsus to the mesorah is not like that to they are not from our beis hamedrash to the 'pesak is not like those sources' anyway. And anybody that knows those 'other sources' or asks to many 'why' questions on yeshivish practice was considered a bid dogy.
Once I left the echo-chamber, the nonsense and narishkeiten became clear. As did the hypocrisy - chareidim talk and discuss money (usually other's money) more than any other orthodox group. Dispite all the stuff about bitochon and how hashem will provide. I have married off my kids into a range of families - from highly yeshivisih to moderate yeshivish to can't be bothered with all the nonsense. Guess which group was most obsessed with the money side of things?
there's a story that the ktav sofer used to be the one to send out the chatam sofer's tshuvot. Once there was one that the ktav sofer didn't fully appreciate the logic f, so he didn't send it out right away. When the chatam sofer asked why, the ktav sofer said he didn't think the logic was strong enough. The chatam sofer said send it out, the logic may not be strong but the psak is correct (Heard from R H Schachter - not a direct transcription of what he said) I think this pretty much reflects discussions of the type had here. bsorot tovot
If you look at any mainstream shu't seforim from major poskim, there is always a balance, a healthy mix of pesak l'chumrah and l'kullah throghout their work.
Nowadays 99% of what you hear is a chumrah in something or other. Go figure.
Here is a version cited by Marc Shapiro in Chakirah: "One time R. Sofer offered his halakhic opinion and the questioner rejected it. R. Sofer was able to justify his position with difficulty. R. Sofer’s son, R. Abraham Samuel, was surprised at his father’s response, and commented that the questioner was correct. To this, R. Sofer replied that before he gave his halakhic answer he prayed to God that he give the proper response. R. Sofer was therefore certain that his answer was correct even as he acknowledged that his explanation of his ruling was not compelling. He added, however, that “one who can learn better than me” will be able to provide a better explanation."
We are not applying to God for a psak so prayer to God in this instance is at best superfluous.
I was just supplying a written version of the story. Not trying to infer meaning from it. Personally I don’t agree with the Chasam Sofer as presented in the story.
In the seventies and eighties there were numerous 'yeshivish' ba'alei battim, typically professionals, during their miluim who every evening changed out of uniform, into a white shirt, suit and hat and spent the evenings learning, davening whatever. And in the morning back to their bases in uniform. Bayit v'gan was full of them
They managed not to lose their faith.
The ones nowadays are comprised of far inferior mettle
Yes, as Ban(d)ana conceded. Apparently there is a high risk that chareidim will 'loose their faith' the first time circumstances dictate they need to put on tefillin at mincha rather than shacharis, due to enemy action. Or the first time they are 'compelled' to sing a 'patriotic Israeli song'. What remains unsaid is why they can't help and count or repair guns, at least helping in some other way. Maybe even that will cause them to 'lose their faith'.
Well yes. There are definitely individual chareidim that would be unharmed by army service, but mass conscription would be a recipe for disaster. Just like you wouldn't send your children to a school where even 5% of the teachers are child molesters, and there is only a small chance that anything would happen to your child. And here the chances are much worse, as we see from the so-called "religious" Zionist community.
Your analogy is not valid.
Better is : "How are you going to keep them on the farm after they see the big city?" Secular life and people are likely to be more attractive to some 'talmidim' so don't expose them. Maybe they need their own Rumspringa before committing. Or we can say 'Lifnei evare lo tetane michshol".
If the chareidi community was more attractive and desirable, you wouldn't have to worry about deserters.
If you are arguing that 5% of the staff are child molester I don't understand how charedim send their children to all these yeshivas that don't do background checks on the staff they hire. According to a serious frum person who is involved in these things he claims that upwards of 25% of all boys are molested at least once. So lets not go there and use this as an argument.
Again! Are you conceding chareidi chinuch and background is no better than religious-zionist chinuch. A recipe for disaster! What exactly is it in the army that would cause this? Last time you wrote "patriotic songs'. You sticking with that?
Well that was before Gedolei Yisrael wrote approbations for DrRNS's books. Had RNS retracted his books, there wouldn't be the faith crisis you refer to and the army would be full of Charedim in the tradition of עדינו העצני.
It seems ridiculous to keep arguing over this. The charedim simply DON'T want to go - let the others do the burden of service, and risk their live. Nothing to do with learning , it is just a smoke screen for them, to lead a safer, easier, more comfortable life.
There are tens of thousands of seforim written, with millions and million of sayings etc. that if I want to find something - all I have to do is just look harder.
Mishachistem wants to find that Moshiach has to die first...they can find it. Name any sin and I can find a saying that he losses his Olam Haba and never gets go into Gan Eden. Name any mitzvah and I can find you a saying that this particular mitzvah saves the entire world. So they will find another saying to get out of the burden to serve. I can direct you many "Loshen Hora" books that bring "sayings" that not talking loshen hora is the biggest merit or the Jewish people. Now if I promise not to speak loshen hora - am I EXEMPT from the army . What don't we understand?
Do you think your explaining it logically and reasonable will help?
Hey dear fellow, perhaps you may have seen this? It's right up your alley!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/two-different-religions
Regarding the question of how to win this war, I highly recommend this essay from someone who is decidedly not Chareidi- even anti-Chareidi.
https://parshawithchana.substack.com/p/that-the-whole-earth-may-know-there?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=511262&post_id=142961697&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2gnvj6&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
"not Chareidi- even anti-Chareidi" exactly, just Jewish. A Jewish person understands that we are not in charge. Especially now.
Natan, take a look at this, and take heed!
What do the charedim do with the unmistakable historical facts that charedim DID serve in the IDF when it was needed of them in the first wars.
And that there were charedi partisans during ww2 (in far far worse conditions than the IDF)
"What do the charedim do with the unmistakable historical facts that charedim DID serve in the IDF when it was needed of them in the first wars."
We learned our lesson. How many chareidim served anyways? You have no numbers, just empty assertions. I don't think anybody has numbers (not that I am doubting that some chareidim served, just like some do now).
In WW2 they weren't forced to sing 'patriotic Israeli songs'.
chas v'shalom gedalya dovid'l has to sing an israeli song. at that point he may as well take his tzitzis off.
They probably did need to sing patriotic songs, they also had to eat the Beans from a Can of Pork and Beans (leaving the Pokr), or else go hungry.
You are freaking retard. And I'm being extremely polite.
Ask any Shoah survivor who fought the Nazis. You think they had Mehadrin food? They are what they scavenged and if was trief they ate it to survive. But you’re too delicate for anything but the finest hechsherim.
Don't have a much of a sense of humor, do you?
sorry i mistook you for one of the many inane charedipologists on here.
There are ways to keep Torah and fight for Israel--what if all Israel was charedi?
You cant justify not even doing community service to relive those who must fight.
There is a solution aside from not participating at all -- you should be looking for that rather than justifications.
IMO, the whole argument about how many soldiers are needed, is flawed.
Let's say the IDF needed only 10k soldiers. Why should this be comprised solely of Chardal, DL, and Chilonim? Why should not a single Charedi risk their lives as their brothers do?
"Rather, it’s that keeping charedim out of the IDF is crucial to them. This is the first reason that Rabbi Shafran mentions: the threat to their religious way of life that Haredim see in entering military service."
True, but as always, I mention that the *real* underlying reason- which is the same as the real underlying reason for almost all specifically charedi beliefs- is that Zionism did not come from "unzerer," and so they never made peace with it. Why serve in the military of a state that you've never really accepted as legitimate?
Threat to *their* religious way of life is what R' Slifkin correctly wrote.
Of course, the details of their religious life as specific to them have very little to do with actual Judaism.
Yes, the midrashization of Judaism and the imposition of mystical beliefs, repeatedly refuted empirically, is a significant problem. Imagine how modern science would appear if we had to believe everything written by and believed by ancient shamans and alchemists because of אם ראשונים בני מלאכים and כל המהרהר אחר רבו, etc.
Shafran the other day wrote a piece attacking Vashti in which he demonstrates a clear problem with confusing midrash and p'shat.
Good metaphor.
I have been thinking about the Torah Brigade idea. It seems to be a brilliant idea that can solve all problems. However, as rationalists we must first understand what is the rationality of it. I don't think the reasons you gave are rational. The one about geography certainly isn't (see here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/my-idf-plan-the-netziv/comment/52522172), and the idea that soldiers should draw moral support from putting more people at risk unnecessarily seems anti-rational.
Rather, the explanation must be that the Talmidei Chachamim are there to be a Chavrusa for the soldiers in every spare moment. The Netsiv references the Gemara (מגילה ג,א וע"ש ברש"י ד"ה ועכשיו) which states that every spare moment of a soldier ahould be dedicated to studying Torah. What better way to accomplish this than having a Talmid Chacham available constantly to study with him.
A rationalist may argue that in an age of phones and internet it is unneccesssary for the Talmidei Chachamim to actually be there, as they can study remotely. However, this is debatable.
What is clear is that such an arrangement would transform the army, help the Chareidim fill an essential role, and probably would eventually assure Chareidim that the army can be extension of the yeshiva.
I wonder if you can discuss with the army if such a thing is possible.
Rav Slifkin,
“…This is actually a great example of how people assume that sources unequivocally say something, when in fact they do no such thing…”
“…Finally, did you notice how Rabbi Shafran misquoted it? He claims that the Midrash describes 1000 from each tribe “for Torah study and prayer.” But the Midrash actually only speaks about prayer and mentions nothing whatsoever about Torah study!…”
Aren’t you disturbed by the ease by which “Torah”, Mishna, “Chazal”, etc. are so adeptly contrived and manipulated to make their judgement fit their desired frame-of-mind?
The entire debate falls into an unfalsifiabile paradigm with little precise evidence to justify their argument.
", the Sifrei - cited by Rashi - which expounds the verse to mean that the tribe of Levi were equally included in the draft! "
Oh boy, here we go again! Doesn't the גר"א emend the text, replacing "include" with "exclude"? And even if we accept the traditionally received text, wasn't מלחמת מדין a special case, and it would follow that the ספרי had to specify the inclusion of לויים in this special war, because לויים would otherwise be excluded? And according to the גר"א, it would mean that the ספרי had to specify the exclusion of לויים in this special war, because לויים would otherwise be included? Or perhaps the ספרי is providing the inclusion/exclusion as a model for other wars? (I saw in the name of RCK that מלחמת מדין was neither a מלחמת רשות or a מלחמת מצוה)
Summary: The ספרי is a not a conclusive proof text for any position in the controversy.
The ספרי and the מדרש cited by AS are just more sources which affirms the high value of Torah study, which are presented by some as an unambiguous slam-dunk argument against Charedim serving in a מלחמת מצוה. Upon closer inspection, the exact parameters and limitations (if they exist) of its application to the draft controversy is far from conclusive.
Nearly every midrash represents the personal viewpoint of its author, loosely bolstered by references to the Tanach. It's akin to someone shooting an arrow and then drawing a target around it afterward.
First good comment of yours in a decade
I am by no means a Torah scholar, so I take the Word at both face value and according to commentaries from a variety of viewpoints. But this stands out to me, in regard to army service in Israel: "“Shall your brothers go to war while you sit here?” (Bamidbar 32:6)." Also, I have an anecdote from personal experience that might be relevant. I know a family of Charedim whose sons have never served in the IDF. Not too long ago, one of the sons was going home after Yeshiva. He was wounded by a terrorist while waiting for the bus. There is no guarantee that soldiers will be wounded, and no guarantee that Yeshiva will save a person. It is all up to HaShem, so to consider these words of Torah might be the most relevant answer to this discusson.
"The sources that speak about protection... are irrelevant in light of the halachic sources that explicitly require everyone, including Torah students and even Torah scholars, to share an equal obligation."
If you mean לא תעמוד - The obligation is to not ignore a life-saving opportunity. There is no obligation for everyone to put themselves in a situation where they can save someone.
If you mean מלחמת מצוה - Charedim have their sources why it's not one and you can't force them to accept your halachic sources over theirs.
Also wondering why Netanyahu’s son lives abroad on a diplomatic passport and doesn’t serve. Criminal.
You missed the memo differentiating between something societal and something individual.
Ye hes just as bad