I'm tired of this disgusting game. I think it's not just me who is tired, but everyone who serves in the army and has served in the past. The same goes for everyone who works and pays taxes. Therefore, it must be decided (1) Whoever decides from the beginning not to work, or to work and not pay taxes - has no right to decide in the Knesset through his representatives, what to do with the money of all those who work and donate. In other words: he has no right to vote. (2) In order for him not to have the right to vote, he is denied citizenship of the State of Israel. (3) Anyone who is not a citizen (a) is not entitled to any money from the State of Israel (b) does not have the right to own a residential apartment in the territory of the State of Israel. (b) receives a license to be in the State of Israel for a limited period of two to three months
You are right; and the change is due to the difference in the security and economic situation of the countries. Western countries are not in an existential struggle, neither military nor economic. The State of Israel is in a very difficult situation in both respects. For example, because of its economic dependence on the United States, they dictate a war strategy to Israel. Because of the lack of regular soldiers and reserve service, thousands of soldiers were missing from Israel's borders on Simchat Torah. It is very possible that if these soldiers had been available, then the battle that day would have looked completely different. And in the same context: It is impossible to live in a country in which every person up to the age of 50 serves every year of "quiet", months upon months in the reserves.
It's ironic that in galus, halacha obligates us to aid and support our host country in any way we can, and even to daven for it's welfare. Except, apparently, a Jewish country protecting us from war and terrorist attacks. Very strange.
Including fighting when they're attacked, even just to steal money (assuming that will lead to nefashos)
Mishnah Berurah to 329:17 —
ודע דהיום כשבאו מהאומות שחוץ לגבולינו לשלול שלל ולבוז בז בודאי מחויבים אנו לצאת בכלי זיין אפילו על עסקי ממון וכדינא דמלכותא וכן מבואר ברוקח ואגודה דהיכא דאיכא חשש שמא יכעסו יושבי הארץ עלינו מחללין עי"ש:
There's a deep-rooted, if not always expressed aloud, feeling among charedim that Israel is fundamentally illegitimate in a way that no other country is, and an ahistorical idea that they are the "authentic" original people.
In the Diaspora, Ultra-Orthodox Jews avoided military service at all costs, saying things like, "My son has nothing in common with those cursing, alcohol-drinking Gentiles fighting their wars." This same attitude now extends to modern Israel and its citizens.
That's probably true. But if they were drafted in a fair way (e.g., like in the U.S. during WWI and WWII, and not like in Czarist Russia), they generally served.
By the way, Jews were drafted as Cantonists for only a couple of decades. Later they were drafted much as gentiles were, although they weren't treated equally, to be sure.
Right, non-Jews were Cantonists too, and for a longer period of history, although official conditions were a bit harsher for Jews, and unofficially it was harder for them for a number of reasons.
My Grandfather lived in a town in Hungary. was a chassidisa Yid with a long beard. He was called up to serve in the "Munka Tabah" which was the work force attached to the army. Did he have choice? - he had to go. Copious tears ran down his face as my uncle cut off his beard before going. There is one picture we have of him and all the people from his town in font of the kitchen they worked. They were only able to eat vegetables and bread, they starved and were freezing. All had no beards and some on the picture we know, were the prestigious people, the best Taledei Chachmen .from his town. There was no games, they all had to serve their host country Hungary. Everyone was obligated and they were no different then the others.
Now.. .When we get to Israel, our own land, Hashems land, and we don't want to serve. Would you not say that is Ironic
I wonder why they could not explain it to the Hungarians, that their learning protects and they don't have to serve. See hot]w that excuse would play out there.
Ye but they'd never actually move anywhere else. Who would want them? And when peleg says רוסיה זה כאן would they actually want to live in the USSR if possible?
Right but more needs to be done on you side as well .One who is truly familiar with Israeli society sees the fact that overall we are very much a religious society, even those not observant generally respect the Torah even if they don't believe in it. Chareidim seem to take a vocal minority and paint all of Israel with the same brush. This helps keep a distinction between "us" and "them" but the fallout is horrendous.
I don't think USSR is better than Israel, the opposite in fact. But this notion that we were okay supporting the atheist anti-Jewish anti-Halacha anti-Torah Russia is patently false, and Weaver's comment was ridiculous. That we are *also* against an anti-Torah Zionist state, even if less so than the Russian version (who were worse) take is not so strange. And even though things have changed, and they are far less anti-Torah, it takes time to rebuild trust and there is a lot being done to undermine this trust. Given the circumstances, I don't blame those who think we need to tread carefully here.
I especially liked Rav Slifkin’s “Necessity is the mother of hashkafic reinvention.” That has always been true as a matter of historical fact. (Hareidi women working outside the home is but one example.)
If the state stopped funding hareidi badlanim/batlanim, both hareidi hashkafa and hareidi behavior would change. Zionist parties will have to prioritize those changes ahead of party interests, however. Alas, that’s why this discussion may be one of הילכתא דמשיחא!
I'm tired of this disgusting game. I think it's not just me who is tired, but everyone who serves in the army and has served in the past. Therefore, (1) Every citizen of the State of Israel must serve in the IDF. He doesn't want to serve? Imprisonment until the age of exemption from military service. The one who pays for this imprisonment is the draft dodger himself, and if he doesn't have the money, his heirs in the order of the scale of proximity. (2) Anyone who tricks the army in order to avoid serving is considered a draft dodger.
More important then forcing Charedim to join, or cutting finding, or even trying to convince them to join with Charedi friendly units is to have them interact with soldiers. Bring chayalim to Charedi shuls and Yeshivos and kollelim. Hear their stories, feel their pain, cry with them. If there was greater understanding in the Charedi communities with what the Dati Leumi soldiers and their families are going through, if we can help create actual empathy... I hope that the desire to help and share the burden even at great personal expense would happen naturally.
Your Idea might bring empathy, but the charedim wont serve. Bet you 10 to1 odds.
Also the Chayalim are busy fighting wars, risking their lives to protect the country, they don't have time for your "mishagas" to go talk in Shul,\ or Yeshivas .They are not like the charedim, they don't know how to waste their time. Hope you understand how foolish your idea is.
I'm not sure that it is true that "in the opinion of much of the dati-leumi community [...] no charedim should be exempt."
Many of the Rabbanim I have spoken to, who have been campaigning for Charedim to join the army feel that there should be a number of exceptional students who are exempt or do a greatly reduced service so that they can build the next generation of Talmedei Chachamim.
This is even true within the Dati-Leumi world where there are a small number of people who do not serve at all, or delay their service for several years and do a reduced military service. This is particularly true in "Chardal" yeshivot such as Merkaz Harav.
The ongoing war has not significantly impacted Ultra-Orthodox cities and settlements. Their sons are not drafted into the army and do not fall on the battlefield. The average Haredi repeats tales of supposed miracles that happened at yeshivas in Tifrah or Ofakim, attributing attacks to the secular residents of nearby kibbutzim with a sigh: "It’s because of them."
I agree. In Israel the police and other essential groups do not do "miluim". There in fact have been discussions of charedim joining police units or perhaps some form of sherut leumi. The objection is to 70000 sitting in yeshivot and acting just as they did before the war with no connection to the situation in the country including huge amounts of time off for bein hazmanim, month f nisan half of thishrei. BTW the airforce just completed a course for charedim as mechanics.
Even in World War 2, I personally know of people who got army exemptions because they worked in essential industries, including cutting industrial diamonds needed for many pieces of equipment. Regarding the dati Leumi hashkafa, see the article (Hebrew) by Rav Medan: https://www.inn.co.il/news/655116. While he strongly feels the need for charedim to be in the army, he explicitly states that exceptional students should be exempt.
And like Lake Woebegon, every single charedi student is "exceptional."
Oh, there are "exceptional" non-charedi students too, and somehow they serve. Which is of course the whole flaw of your argument: In World War II, no one got an exemption because of whatever group they were born into. (Unless they were born into a literally pacifist religious group, which charedim are not.) You are asking for a class exemption here.
I'm not sure that's a good comparison. My wife's uncle was also exempted during WW2 because he was creating munitions for the war. That was a very important job needed to help win the war. (Yet he always felt bad that he wasn't "in" the war itself like his brother, my wife's father.).
Seems to me that the bottom line is that if you are doing something to help the country (e.g., shirut leumi), then that should be sufficient.
No Israeli gets to say, "You know what, I'd rather not be drafted, but help out some other way." The suggestion seems to be that charedim alone should be allowed to do so, due to birth.
Apart from religious women? No. And those who do do so because of a specific exemption, usually health-related, not because of what community they were born into.
"The ideal is that everyone goes to the army." - Nu-nu, Dati L'umi hashkafa. Why not say it straight that you want to abolish hareidism. The real trick is figuring out how to strengthen the army and facilitate the profoundly needed achdus by encouraging those HAREIDIM to remain HAREIDIM who are overall fit for the army.
I don't have to run after the Haredim. They must come to the army and say: Give me A, B, C, D, ... T so that we can enlist. But, so far, zero!!!! Of all the Haredi politicians, zero!!! A senior Haredi leader rabbi, "Gedolei Yisrael" did this. All they did was slander and humiliate, be arrogant and ignore the needs of the people of Israel
I share with you the interest to see Hareidi leaders show a MUCH more respectful attitude towards non-Hareidi Torah observant Jews, especially those who make great sacrifices for the nation via tsahal
No.......they want to shmad all the chareidim. The whole entire reason the original founders came to Israel was to destroy all religious people. Can you think of any other reason?? This that they claimed they are escaping persecutions is only a straw argument. We and all our Talmedei Chachmem know exactly why they went to Israel. Very smart people you are - have to hand it to you!
You actually don't know. As such your sweeping claim is worthless.
2) How relevant is this alleged "whole entire reason" relevant today? Where do we see in הלכות מלכים that the laws of wars are abrogated by the attitudes of the king's predecessors from two generations prior?
According to the haredi, drafting at all is against Halacha.
But please show me where it is in Halacha that forbids women from drafting. And why this overrides pikuah nefesh. If women didn't draft, our army would not be able to function.
Well, I'm not sure that's a fair thing to say. How does one go about looking it up? It's not in shulchan aruch.
The simple reading of the mishna at the end of the 8th perek of sota supports what you're saying. Tiferes yisroel on the mishna there understood it that way, as did the rashash. Torah Temima, however, based on the gmara in kiddushin daf 2b, says that it must just be a melitza based on the pasuk and she does not go out. The radbaz on the Rambam melachim 7,4 brings both possibilities. There seems to be a contradiction in the sefer hachinuch on the issue, while minchas chinuch assumes like the obligating read. It should be noted that the tiferes yisroel, rashash and radbaz (on the side that he obligates) all say that it would be specifically in a logistical role (bringing water and food/ cooking to the men (in radbaz, "to their husbands", fixing the roads). It should perhaps also be noted that the pesukim about counting people for war specifically count men and Re'uven, Gad and half of Menashe left their women behind (7 nations is a milchemes mitzvah according to everyone). Additionally, most (if not all) "mainstream" dati leumi rabanim oppose the idea of women going to the army as it creates an undesirable environment in the current setup (at least one of the reasons). Rav Lichtenstein, in his article about hesder, also said he opposed it under the circumstances at the time.
the last episode of halachic headlines 12/7/24 – Shiur 492 – The new initiative to draft Chareidim into the army. Should Yeshiva boys draft into the all-Charedi “Chashmonaim” Brigade? with Rabbi Nechemia Steinberger – Program Officer, The Maimonides Fund – 17:15
with Rabbi Yosef Zvi Rimon – Rosh Yeshiva, Jerusalem College of Technology – 48:47
with Dr. Shlomo Black – Psychologist and Research Associate at the Institute for National Security Studies (INSS) – 1:16:57 see especially the interview with Rav Rimon
To the author, IMHO, I think your war posts are missing a key aspect: the leftist leaders managing the army. For them, losing soldiers is a price worth paying to keep their leftist ideology alive, which goes against Torah values.
I'm not claiming Charedim are making this argument, they are not, but it would be worth writing a post about this. At some point, even Datiim Leumim will realize they are sacrificing their lives for a false god.
Do we need soldiers? Absolutely.
Do we need to send soldiers to empty buildings to die instead of blowing it up from afar (even if there are people inside)? Absolutely not.
I guess you know better than all the top generals in Israel. What experience do you have.... ZERO. You remind me of all the Charedim that were smarter than all the top prestigious doctors, heads of infectious disease units in hospitals.
Come to think of it - he true "infectious diseases" are in the "know it all" brains of charedim. And it runs in the families....nebach.
Second, you mean all the generals that missed the 7th of October attack? With generals like these.
Third, please go and tell the families of the fallen the great strategies of these generals.
Fourth, do you agree these generals have leftist ideas and do not know what the Torah says about how to fight a war? Do you acknowledge there are halachot on how to fight a war or you don't believe the Torah?
If some doctor misses a diagnosis, yes he is a fault. The remedy is to reassess his treatment, to be better. That does not elevate you to the status of doctor.
Here is the same you might feel if the generals were at fault. YOU still don't become a general and know how to fight a war.
I hate to burst your bubble but try to understand why Israel does not now take you as its war commander, - were you wondering at that.
You haven't addressed the issue, do the leaders fight according to the Torah or not? Do they care about what the Torah has to say or not?
Your argument is the same the mainstream media makes: we know, you don't. You think you need a certificate on the wall to know about an issue, I don't. No matter how wrong the generals have been since 1967 onwards, you will still defend them. No matter how many 20 y.o. die, you will still defend them. Everything is good as long as we keep sacrificing our children to the fake leftist god, little difference as what happened 3000 thousands years ago.
I'm sure you agreed with the people who said we shouldn't go into Rafah, they also knew more than me (sarcasm).
I have addressed the issue point blank . The issue is you think you know better than the generals.
QUESTIONS - are you sitting in on the war room meeting?
Do have briefings from the Shin bet or other security agencies?
Do you know the ins and out that they are discussing, with all the political issues they have to take into confederation?
Don't you see the foolishness to your thinking - sitting in yeshiva all day thinking about everything under the sun, does not somehow make you a war expert!
Again, you are not addressing the issue. Obviously they have more military knowledge, who's denying that?
The issue is, for the n-th time: do these generals study Torah / consult with rabbis at all or do they fight according to secular / liberal values? Do they know the halachot of a jewish army?
The Ultra-Orthodox embody a diaspora-style focus on Talmud and Midrash, rather than Judaism in its broader sense. Their perspective on a Jewish state and its army is skewed by bizarre ideas, like the claim that King David's army paired each soldier with a yeshiva student.
I don't see a clear solution, as this Midrashic approach has deeply embedded itself into our religion. Perhaps only a major crisis (God forbid, another devastating terror attack) could gradually bring change to the Ultra-Orthodox mindset
You need to find a resolution. You can't just chalk it up between תורה שבכתב and תורה שבעל פה or you won't get anywhere. Talmud is not chareidi. The way Judaism has been preserved throughout the ages is through the Halachic system. Or else you end up with vague values of justice and morality which the Christians also get from the same Bible. Judaism has something unique to offer.
Agreed. The real resolution is to look at what halacha actually says on the matter, instead of selectively quoting a medrash in bamidbar raba which is not codified in halachic sources (rashi on chumash in milchemes midian doesn't mention it, he just says that they davka drafted tzadikim, based on sifre).
Halachic sources do not exempt able-bodied men from serving in a milchemes mitzvah, an exceptional korban ha'eda at the end of the eighth perek of yerushalmi sota (whose reading of the Asa story in its biblical context is... strange... to say the least... see penei Moshe there) notwithstanding.
The implication of the gmara in sota on 10a, in its juxtaposition of talmidei chochomim to chosson is that Asa was criticized for drafting both of them (see also the gilyon there in the name of the aruch who also implies as much, that is to say, for any war that it is justified to draft a chosson, all the more so it is justified to draft talmidei chochomim, keren ora in the eighth perek of sota also explicitly obligates talmidei chochomim in a milchemes mitzvah).
Nowhere in the gmara in the eighth perek of sota or Rambam hilchos melachim are talmidei chochomim exempted from even a milchemes reshus! Additionally, chazal often attribute great Torah knowledge to great soldiers in tanach. When it is sufficiently demonstrated to charedim that there is no such halachic exemption from a milchemes mitzvah, they need to change tactics.
Now it's not a milchemes mitzvah (not sure what to do with shulchan aruch orach chaim 329,6, but whatever, and of course, the value of defending klal yisroel by itself would be insufficient if you can't technically categorize a "halachic" reason that they need to go, they don't mind being maamid themselves on din Torah when it suits them, the gmara in bava metzia 30b notwithstanding), so what is it? It's a tax/ building a wall issue, talmidei chochomim are exempt from that, it's an explicit gmara poskined by everyone!
Ah but what happens when one finds that the Rama limits that petur to only the truly exceptional, a level of Torah knowledge that only yechidim (if that) would qualify for (Rama yoreh de'ah 243,2) even at age 24? (I'd be pro giving 5 or 6 years to learn to prepare spiritually for the army, both to learn relevant halachic issues and resolutions and generally to be spiritually prepared.)
So they need to come up with something else, they'll rely on other opinions who lower the bar for tax exemption (in more convenient halachic areas that would make them look frum, they would never consider going against the Rama, but then, protecting klal yisroel in the Israeli army isn't frum) or maybe it's a shmad?
In reality there are two things at play here, the failure to think critically in the charedi world in real issues due to the made up dogma of daas Torah, that is a problem that needs to be solved by teaching the "lower ranks" of their society.
There's also the issue that their gedolim have failed miserably as leaders of jews who are supposed to be fulfilling the Torah, I don't know if there's a solution to that unfortunately, the society as of now is comfortable with their religiously flawed distortion of Torah and its values and will come up with excuses to continue as things are until something really clicks and I don't know what that would be. We should all try to internalize the words of radak on Yirmiyahu 2,8 about what it really means to be one who is a תופש התורה.
Additionally, the fact that their attitude is leading people to think that they need to deny Torah shebaal peh in order to take the correct path is truly a chilul Hashem in the sense of "אוי למי שלמד תורה", the misrepresentation of the Torah here is so very harmful and also a demonstration of what Rambam says about his "first group" of people regarding interpretation of medrash in his hakdama to perek chelek, causing people to say רק עם סכל ונבל הגוי הקטן הזה, when a real fulfillment of Torah would justifiably cause them to say רק עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה (דברים ד,ו) (Rambam says a similar sentiment in moreh chelek 3 perek 31 regarding how the mitzvos must have reasons that people can understand, otherwise why would we be described as chochom? Cf rabenu bechaye on devarim 4,6. I can't help but think that blindly deferring to daas Torah, even when it says intuitively problematic things from a Torah perspective, leads to this problem, we are meant to try to understand what avodas Hashem is about.)
"The notion that “where there is a rabbinic will there is a halakhic way” both insults gedolei Torah, collectively, and, in its insouciant view of the totality of halakha, verges on the blasphemous."
It demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of halacha as devar Hashem. Why even bother pretending to be a proponent of rabbinic Judaism?
In this context, of course, the distortion of halacha comes from the charedi refusal to assist in the war and their usage of Torah as a "shovel to dig with," and their rabanim's discouragement of fighting our nation's enemies is decidedly anti halachic. As a general rule, however, the Greenbergs are "orthodox" in self-identification only.
I'm tired of this disgusting game. I think it's not just me who is tired, but everyone who serves in the army and has served in the past. The same goes for everyone who works and pays taxes. Therefore, it must be decided (1) Whoever decides from the beginning not to work, or to work and not pay taxes - has no right to decide in the Knesset through his representatives, what to do with the money of all those who work and donate. In other words: he has no right to vote. (2) In order for him not to have the right to vote, he is denied citizenship of the State of Israel. (3) Anyone who is not a citizen (a) is not entitled to any money from the State of Israel (b) does not have the right to own a residential apartment in the territory of the State of Israel. (b) receives a license to be in the State of Israel for a limited period of two to three months
As Heinlein suggested in "Starship Troopers." Want to vote? Serve.
Yes. More to the point, if your primary "national service" is spiritual, then your influence at the ballot box should be spiritual as well.
You are right; and the change is due to the difference in the security and economic situation of the countries. Western countries are not in an existential struggle, neither military nor economic. The State of Israel is in a very difficult situation in both respects. For example, because of its economic dependence on the United States, they dictate a war strategy to Israel. Because of the lack of regular soldiers and reserve service, thousands of soldiers were missing from Israel's borders on Simchat Torah. It is very possible that if these soldiers had been available, then the battle that day would have looked completely different. And in the same context: It is impossible to live in a country in which every person up to the age of 50 serves every year of "quiet", months upon months in the reserves.
In many lands the right to vote , was tied to the service people gave.
Even here, in great United State for its first few hundred years, only those who owned land - meaning had skin in the game - ware allowed to vote.
Israel should be - Don't serve, dont get to vote! and don't get to take away the honest peoples money what they worked for.
How will the draft dodgers live.. ..well....you see...... they will learn Torah and it will protect them from all troubles! How sweet it will be .
It's ironic that in galus, halacha obligates us to aid and support our host country in any way we can, and even to daven for it's welfare. Except, apparently, a Jewish country protecting us from war and terrorist attacks. Very strange.
Including fighting when they're attacked, even just to steal money (assuming that will lead to nefashos)
Mishnah Berurah to 329:17 —
ודע דהיום כשבאו מהאומות שחוץ לגבולינו לשלול שלל ולבוז בז בודאי מחויבים אנו לצאת בכלי זיין אפילו על עסקי ממון וכדינא דמלכותא וכן מבואר ברוקח ואגודה דהיכא דאיכא חשש שמא יכעסו יושבי הארץ עלינו מחללין עי"ש:
Fascinating
There's a deep-rooted, if not always expressed aloud, feeling among charedim that Israel is fundamentally illegitimate in a way that no other country is, and an ahistorical idea that they are the "authentic" original people.
Israel is fundamentally illegitimate"
Okay.... get the hell out the illegitimate courtly. Believe me NO one will miss you.
That's the second part- they have a fantasy that they were here first, so why should they go?
(Which is ridiculous, apart from being false. American Indians serve in the US military.)
In the Diaspora, Ultra-Orthodox Jews avoided military service at all costs, saying things like, "My son has nothing in common with those cursing, alcohol-drinking Gentiles fighting their wars." This same attitude now extends to modern Israel and its citizens.
That's probably true. But if they were drafted in a fair way (e.g., like in the U.S. during WWI and WWII, and not like in Czarist Russia), they generally served.
By the way, Jews were drafted as Cantonists for only a couple of decades. Later they were drafted much as gentiles were, although they weren't treated equally, to be sure.
Yes. We present it as if it just happened to Jews. Historical perspective is not our strength...
Right, non-Jews were Cantonists too, and for a longer period of history, although official conditions were a bit harsher for Jews, and unofficially it was harder for them for a number of reasons.
My Grandfather lived in a town in Hungary. was a chassidisa Yid with a long beard. He was called up to serve in the "Munka Tabah" which was the work force attached to the army. Did he have choice? - he had to go. Copious tears ran down his face as my uncle cut off his beard before going. There is one picture we have of him and all the people from his town in font of the kitchen they worked. They were only able to eat vegetables and bread, they starved and were freezing. All had no beards and some on the picture we know, were the prestigious people, the best Taledei Chachmen .from his town. There was no games, they all had to serve their host country Hungary. Everyone was obligated and they were no different then the others.
Now.. .When we get to Israel, our own land, Hashems land, and we don't want to serve. Would you not say that is Ironic
I wonder why they could not explain it to the Hungarians, that their learning protects and they don't have to serve. See hot]w that excuse would play out there.
It's not that strange given the history
History? Yeah, Israel is a lot more hostile to religion than, let's say, the Czar was. Right.
Ye but they'd never actually move anywhere else. Who would want them? And when peleg says רוסיה זה כאן would they actually want to live in the USSR if possible?
Right but more needs to be done on you side as well .One who is truly familiar with Israeli society sees the fact that overall we are very much a religious society, even those not observant generally respect the Torah even if they don't believe in it. Chareidim seem to take a vocal minority and paint all of Israel with the same brush. This helps keep a distinction between "us" and "them" but the fallout is horrendous.
I agree with all of that.
I don't think USSR is better than Israel, the opposite in fact. But this notion that we were okay supporting the atheist anti-Jewish anti-Halacha anti-Torah Russia is patently false, and Weaver's comment was ridiculous. That we are *also* against an anti-Torah Zionist state, even if less so than the Russian version (who were worse) take is not so strange. And even though things have changed, and they are far less anti-Torah, it takes time to rebuild trust and there is a lot being done to undermine this trust. Given the circumstances, I don't blame those who think we need to tread carefully here.
I especially liked Rav Slifkin’s “Necessity is the mother of hashkafic reinvention.” That has always been true as a matter of historical fact. (Hareidi women working outside the home is but one example.)
If the state stopped funding hareidi badlanim/batlanim, both hareidi hashkafa and hareidi behavior would change. Zionist parties will have to prioritize those changes ahead of party interests, however. Alas, that’s why this discussion may be one of הילכתא דמשיחא!
I'm tired of this disgusting game. I think it's not just me who is tired, but everyone who serves in the army and has served in the past. Therefore, (1) Every citizen of the State of Israel must serve in the IDF. He doesn't want to serve? Imprisonment until the age of exemption from military service. The one who pays for this imprisonment is the draft dodger himself, and if he doesn't have the money, his heirs in the order of the scale of proximity. (2) Anyone who tricks the army in order to avoid serving is considered a draft dodger.
That's a tax burden though. I'd just go with שלילת קצבאות.
More important then forcing Charedim to join, or cutting finding, or even trying to convince them to join with Charedi friendly units is to have them interact with soldiers. Bring chayalim to Charedi shuls and Yeshivos and kollelim. Hear their stories, feel their pain, cry with them. If there was greater understanding in the Charedi communities with what the Dati Leumi soldiers and their families are going through, if we can help create actual empathy... I hope that the desire to help and share the burden even at great personal expense would happen naturally.
unfortunately chayalim would not be welcome in many Charedi shuls and Yeshivos and kollelim
Many is an exaggeration - I saw soldiers many times in Toldos Avraham Yitzchak in Bet Shemesh.
Don't fool yourself if only....
Your Idea might bring empathy, but the charedim wont serve. Bet you 10 to1 odds.
Also the Chayalim are busy fighting wars, risking their lives to protect the country, they don't have time for your "mishagas" to go talk in Shul,\ or Yeshivas .They are not like the charedim, they don't know how to waste their time. Hope you understand how foolish your idea is.
I would love to be able to believe that, but some of the people who post here convince me otherwise.
I'm not sure that it is true that "in the opinion of much of the dati-leumi community [...] no charedim should be exempt."
Many of the Rabbanim I have spoken to, who have been campaigning for Charedim to join the army feel that there should be a number of exceptional students who are exempt or do a greatly reduced service so that they can build the next generation of Talmedei Chachamim.
This is even true within the Dati-Leumi world where there are a small number of people who do not serve at all, or delay their service for several years and do a reduced military service. This is particularly true in "Chardal" yeshivot such as Merkaz Harav.
Of course, *every* charedi student is "exceptional." Even the ones not learning at all.
The rest of us aren't so lucky.
The ongoing war has not significantly impacted Ultra-Orthodox cities and settlements. Their sons are not drafted into the army and do not fall on the battlefield. The average Haredi repeats tales of supposed miracles that happened at yeshivas in Tifrah or Ofakim, attributing attacks to the secular residents of nearby kibbutzim with a sigh: "It’s because of them."
I agree. In Israel the police and other essential groups do not do "miluim". There in fact have been discussions of charedim joining police units or perhaps some form of sherut leumi. The objection is to 70000 sitting in yeshivot and acting just as they did before the war with no connection to the situation in the country including huge amounts of time off for bein hazmanim, month f nisan half of thishrei. BTW the airforce just completed a course for charedim as mechanics.
Even in World War 2, I personally know of people who got army exemptions because they worked in essential industries, including cutting industrial diamonds needed for many pieces of equipment. Regarding the dati Leumi hashkafa, see the article (Hebrew) by Rav Medan: https://www.inn.co.il/news/655116. While he strongly feels the need for charedim to be in the army, he explicitly states that exceptional students should be exempt.
And like Lake Woebegon, every single charedi student is "exceptional."
Oh, there are "exceptional" non-charedi students too, and somehow they serve. Which is of course the whole flaw of your argument: In World War II, no one got an exemption because of whatever group they were born into. (Unless they were born into a literally pacifist religious group, which charedim are not.) You are asking for a class exemption here.
I'm not sure that's a good comparison. My wife's uncle was also exempted during WW2 because he was creating munitions for the war. That was a very important job needed to help win the war. (Yet he always felt bad that he wasn't "in" the war itself like his brother, my wife's father.).
Seems to me that the bottom line is that if you are doing something to help the country (e.g., shirut leumi), then that should be sufficient.
And you should be entitled to so by birth?
Sorry, but I don't understand your question. I should be entitled to what?
No Israeli gets to say, "You know what, I'd rather not be drafted, but help out some other way." The suggestion seems to be that charedim alone should be allowed to do so, due to birth.
There are lots of people who do shirut leumi instead of the army.
Apart from religious women? No. And those who do do so because of a specific exemption, usually health-related, not because of what community they were born into.
Most of the Acharonim had jobs too.
"The ideal is that everyone goes to the army." - Nu-nu, Dati L'umi hashkafa. Why not say it straight that you want to abolish hareidism. The real trick is figuring out how to strengthen the army and facilitate the profoundly needed achdus by encouraging those HAREIDIM to remain HAREIDIM who are overall fit for the army.
I don't have to run after the Haredim. They must come to the army and say: Give me A, B, C, D, ... T so that we can enlist. But, so far, zero!!!! Of all the Haredi politicians, zero!!! A senior Haredi leader rabbi, "Gedolei Yisrael" did this. All they did was slander and humiliate, be arrogant and ignore the needs of the people of Israel
I share with you the interest to see Hareidi leaders show a MUCH more respectful attitude towards non-Hareidi Torah observant Jews, especially those who make great sacrifices for the nation via tsahal
... But that doesnt mean they should turn their very legitimate shita into a pretzel in order to join tsahal. We need to build bridges.
What's legitimate about it?
are you sincerely asking?
Of course I am. Legitimate shita that the State of Israel shouldn't exist?
No.......they want to shmad all the chareidim. The whole entire reason the original founders came to Israel was to destroy all religious people. Can you think of any other reason?? This that they claimed they are escaping persecutions is only a straw argument. We and all our Talmedei Chachmem know exactly why they went to Israel. Very smart people you are - have to hand it to you!
" the original founders "
1) Who were these original founders?
You actually don't know. As such your sweeping claim is worthless.
2) How relevant is this alleged "whole entire reason" relevant today? Where do we see in הלכות מלכים that the laws of wars are abrogated by the attitudes of the king's predecessors from two generations prior?
Well, as "hareidism" nowadays means "gimme gimme", yes, that has to be eliminated.
(I guess that answers my q above)
Reading comprehension can be a good thing!
I have no problem with the most brilliant scholar not drafting. I'll even give one every single year.
That being said, I also want to see the women draft.
Drafting women is against Halacha.
Your wishes notwithstanding.
According to the haredi, drafting at all is against Halacha.
But please show me where it is in Halacha that forbids women from drafting. And why this overrides pikuah nefesh. If women didn't draft, our army would not be able to function.
Drafting is not against Halacha. Name one widely accepted Charedi posek who ruled that way.
Acc to gdalya they all do
Women are required to serve in the military under halakha. You could look it up.
Well, I'm not sure that's a fair thing to say. How does one go about looking it up? It's not in shulchan aruch.
The simple reading of the mishna at the end of the 8th perek of sota supports what you're saying. Tiferes yisroel on the mishna there understood it that way, as did the rashash. Torah Temima, however, based on the gmara in kiddushin daf 2b, says that it must just be a melitza based on the pasuk and she does not go out. The radbaz on the Rambam melachim 7,4 brings both possibilities. There seems to be a contradiction in the sefer hachinuch on the issue, while minchas chinuch assumes like the obligating read. It should be noted that the tiferes yisroel, rashash and radbaz (on the side that he obligates) all say that it would be specifically in a logistical role (bringing water and food/ cooking to the men (in radbaz, "to their husbands", fixing the roads). It should perhaps also be noted that the pesukim about counting people for war specifically count men and Re'uven, Gad and half of Menashe left their women behind (7 nations is a milchemes mitzvah according to everyone). Additionally, most (if not all) "mainstream" dati leumi rabanim oppose the idea of women going to the army as it creates an undesirable environment in the current setup (at least one of the reasons). Rav Lichtenstein, in his article about hesder, also said he opposed it under the circumstances at the time.
Depends on what is meant by "drafting". Which halacha do you refer too?
https://www.makorrishon.co.il/news/800354/
the last episode of halachic headlines 12/7/24 – Shiur 492 – The new initiative to draft Chareidim into the army. Should Yeshiva boys draft into the all-Charedi “Chashmonaim” Brigade? with Rabbi Nechemia Steinberger – Program Officer, The Maimonides Fund – 17:15
with Rabbi Yosef Zvi Rimon – Rosh Yeshiva, Jerusalem College of Technology – 48:47
with Dr. Shlomo Black – Psychologist and Research Associate at the Institute for National Security Studies (INSS) – 1:16:57 see especially the interview with Rav Rimon
To the author, IMHO, I think your war posts are missing a key aspect: the leftist leaders managing the army. For them, losing soldiers is a price worth paying to keep their leftist ideology alive, which goes against Torah values.
I'm not claiming Charedim are making this argument, they are not, but it would be worth writing a post about this. At some point, even Datiim Leumim will realize they are sacrificing their lives for a false god.
Do we need soldiers? Absolutely.
Do we need to send soldiers to empty buildings to die instead of blowing it up from afar (even if there are people inside)? Absolutely not.
I guess you know better than all the top generals in Israel. What experience do you have.... ZERO. You remind me of all the Charedim that were smarter than all the top prestigious doctors, heads of infectious disease units in hospitals.
Come to think of it - he true "infectious diseases" are in the "know it all" brains of charedim. And it runs in the families....nebach.
First, I'm not Charedi.
Second, you mean all the generals that missed the 7th of October attack? With generals like these.
Third, please go and tell the families of the fallen the great strategies of these generals.
Fourth, do you agree these generals have leftist ideas and do not know what the Torah says about how to fight a war? Do you acknowledge there are halachot on how to fight a war or you don't believe the Torah?
If some doctor misses a diagnosis, yes he is a fault. The remedy is to reassess his treatment, to be better. That does not elevate you to the status of doctor.
Here is the same you might feel if the generals were at fault. YOU still don't become a general and know how to fight a war.
I hate to burst your bubble but try to understand why Israel does not now take you as its war commander, - were you wondering at that.
You haven't addressed the issue, do the leaders fight according to the Torah or not? Do they care about what the Torah has to say or not?
Your argument is the same the mainstream media makes: we know, you don't. You think you need a certificate on the wall to know about an issue, I don't. No matter how wrong the generals have been since 1967 onwards, you will still defend them. No matter how many 20 y.o. die, you will still defend them. Everything is good as long as we keep sacrificing our children to the fake leftist god, little difference as what happened 3000 thousands years ago.
I'm sure you agreed with the people who said we shouldn't go into Rafah, they also knew more than me (sarcasm).
I have addressed the issue point blank . The issue is you think you know better than the generals.
QUESTIONS - are you sitting in on the war room meeting?
Do have briefings from the Shin bet or other security agencies?
Do you know the ins and out that they are discussing, with all the political issues they have to take into confederation?
Don't you see the foolishness to your thinking - sitting in yeshiva all day thinking about everything under the sun, does not somehow make you a war expert!
Again, you are not addressing the issue. Obviously they have more military knowledge, who's denying that?
The issue is, for the n-th time: do these generals study Torah / consult with rabbis at all or do they fight according to secular / liberal values? Do they know the halachot of a jewish army?
Wow, you should be a general.
Once again, proof that Jews are not, in fact, smarter than anybody else.
Any argument?
Any argument?
Yes. Serving is not contingent on whether the top brass is a bunch of idiots.
Of course it is contingent if they are not fighting according to Halacha.
Dying in vain is not a jewish value. Dying al kiddush Hashem is.
It's also the fact that Israel makes itself dependent on the US and the moral standards of the UN
The Ultra-Orthodox embody a diaspora-style focus on Talmud and Midrash, rather than Judaism in its broader sense. Their perspective on a Jewish state and its army is skewed by bizarre ideas, like the claim that King David's army paired each soldier with a yeshiva student.
I don't see a clear solution, as this Midrashic approach has deeply embedded itself into our religion. Perhaps only a major crisis (God forbid, another devastating terror attack) could gradually bring change to the Ultra-Orthodox mindset
You need to find a resolution. You can't just chalk it up between תורה שבכתב and תורה שבעל פה or you won't get anywhere. Talmud is not chareidi. The way Judaism has been preserved throughout the ages is through the Halachic system. Or else you end up with vague values of justice and morality which the Christians also get from the same Bible. Judaism has something unique to offer.
Agreed. The real resolution is to look at what halacha actually says on the matter, instead of selectively quoting a medrash in bamidbar raba which is not codified in halachic sources (rashi on chumash in milchemes midian doesn't mention it, he just says that they davka drafted tzadikim, based on sifre).
Halachic sources do not exempt able-bodied men from serving in a milchemes mitzvah, an exceptional korban ha'eda at the end of the eighth perek of yerushalmi sota (whose reading of the Asa story in its biblical context is... strange... to say the least... see penei Moshe there) notwithstanding.
The implication of the gmara in sota on 10a, in its juxtaposition of talmidei chochomim to chosson is that Asa was criticized for drafting both of them (see also the gilyon there in the name of the aruch who also implies as much, that is to say, for any war that it is justified to draft a chosson, all the more so it is justified to draft talmidei chochomim, keren ora in the eighth perek of sota also explicitly obligates talmidei chochomim in a milchemes mitzvah).
Nowhere in the gmara in the eighth perek of sota or Rambam hilchos melachim are talmidei chochomim exempted from even a milchemes reshus! Additionally, chazal often attribute great Torah knowledge to great soldiers in tanach. When it is sufficiently demonstrated to charedim that there is no such halachic exemption from a milchemes mitzvah, they need to change tactics.
Now it's not a milchemes mitzvah (not sure what to do with shulchan aruch orach chaim 329,6, but whatever, and of course, the value of defending klal yisroel by itself would be insufficient if you can't technically categorize a "halachic" reason that they need to go, they don't mind being maamid themselves on din Torah when it suits them, the gmara in bava metzia 30b notwithstanding), so what is it? It's a tax/ building a wall issue, talmidei chochomim are exempt from that, it's an explicit gmara poskined by everyone!
Ah but what happens when one finds that the Rama limits that petur to only the truly exceptional, a level of Torah knowledge that only yechidim (if that) would qualify for (Rama yoreh de'ah 243,2) even at age 24? (I'd be pro giving 5 or 6 years to learn to prepare spiritually for the army, both to learn relevant halachic issues and resolutions and generally to be spiritually prepared.)
So they need to come up with something else, they'll rely on other opinions who lower the bar for tax exemption (in more convenient halachic areas that would make them look frum, they would never consider going against the Rama, but then, protecting klal yisroel in the Israeli army isn't frum) or maybe it's a shmad?
In reality there are two things at play here, the failure to think critically in the charedi world in real issues due to the made up dogma of daas Torah, that is a problem that needs to be solved by teaching the "lower ranks" of their society.
There's also the issue that their gedolim have failed miserably as leaders of jews who are supposed to be fulfilling the Torah, I don't know if there's a solution to that unfortunately, the society as of now is comfortable with their religiously flawed distortion of Torah and its values and will come up with excuses to continue as things are until something really clicks and I don't know what that would be. We should all try to internalize the words of radak on Yirmiyahu 2,8 about what it really means to be one who is a תופש התורה.
Additionally, the fact that their attitude is leading people to think that they need to deny Torah shebaal peh in order to take the correct path is truly a chilul Hashem in the sense of "אוי למי שלמד תורה", the misrepresentation of the Torah here is so very harmful and also a demonstration of what Rambam says about his "first group" of people regarding interpretation of medrash in his hakdama to perek chelek, causing people to say רק עם סכל ונבל הגוי הקטן הזה, when a real fulfillment of Torah would justifiably cause them to say רק עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה (דברים ד,ו) (Rambam says a similar sentiment in moreh chelek 3 perek 31 regarding how the mitzvos must have reasons that people can understand, otherwise why would we be described as chochom? Cf rabenu bechaye on devarim 4,6. I can't help but think that blindly deferring to daas Torah, even when it says intuitively problematic things from a Torah perspective, leads to this problem, we are meant to try to understand what avodas Hashem is about.)
Agreed.
But we *are* in the midst of a major crisis, and other than some small initiatives, little seems to have changed in the Haredi mindset
As Blu Greenberg famously said: "Where there is a will, there is a halachic way." She is a wise lady and speaks the truth.
To quote Rav Aharon Lichtenstein zt"l (in a very worthwhile article here: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/jewish-law-halakha/human-social-factor-halakha/ )
"The notion that “where there is a rabbinic will there is a halakhic way” both insults gedolei Torah, collectively, and, in its insouciant view of the totality of halakha, verges on the blasphemous."
It may be an insouciant view, and it may even verge on the blasphemous, but it is true.
It demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of halacha as devar Hashem. Why even bother pretending to be a proponent of rabbinic Judaism?
In this context, of course, the distortion of halacha comes from the charedi refusal to assist in the war and their usage of Torah as a "shovel to dig with," and their rabanim's discouragement of fighting our nation's enemies is decidedly anti halachic. As a general rule, however, the Greenbergs are "orthodox" in self-identification only.
Thank you for sharing that link, very interesting.
The comments section in this blog excel at finding thought-provoking or otherwise fascinating articles in Hashkafa, and this was no exception.
Someone should publish a collection of all articles that have been linked to from the comments in this blog, it would make excellent reading.
Well, this one is also in leaves of faith volume one :)
Not quite. The phrase is, "Where there's a rabbinic will, there's a halachic way.”
Sure. The Hashkafah of Blu Greenberg and that of this blog align perfectly.
Speculation and fantasy.
Please cite where this blog expressed Greenberg's sentiments.