I think you'd have a hard sell getting hundreds of thousands of secular Israelis to learn Torah because you want them to.
I'll make you a different deal.. Several of my sons are currently called up on reserve duty because of the war. Could you send over 3-4 highly trained Yeshiva guys to fight, and my kids would happily switch them and spend a few weeks in Yeshiva?
Being hard doesnt make it invalid , Torah is as essential a part as anything to the Jewish existence , as much you believe those that learn should serve surely the opposite is also true. Im not sure how your second point is at all related to my comment. I certainly did not mean to disrespect your children or anyone elses serving the country.
Surely you know the halachot of milchemet mitzvah. The yeshiva students have no business sitting around while others do the halachic and moral thing and fight. The Hillul hashem of the cowardice and selfishness of the Haredi community is perhaps the greatest in Jewish history.
Not at all. Your response was polite and respectful.
As I understand your point, you'd like to see more people learning Torah to "share" that burden, while many of us are advocating for Chareidim sharing the burden of fighting. So I'm offering a swap. My kids would love a break from the fighting by going to learn, and that way some Chareidi young men could serve without worrying about less Torah being learnt.
Very cute. I'd much rather sit with a Gemara and a cup of coffee than go to work every day!
Not to mention that a not insignificant percentage of Chareidim (a) don't actually sit and learn all day and (b) hang around the beis medrash learning half-heartedly because they have nothing else better to do because their community won't let them function as normal members of society.
For what it's worth, I know someone who Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach told personally that if he had the koach for a fight, he would institute nationwide tests in the yeshivos to make sure they're actually learning something. Everyone else would be kicked out of the yeshivos. How about them apples?
Well, we were assured that kollel was 'difficult and inconvenient'. Those of us who have experienced both the workplace and kollel know what nonsense that is. But its a typical statement from somebody 'in learning' who thinks he knows it all but in practice knows nothing outside the walls of the beis hamedrash (other than outside those wall lies sources of cash)
Im not really sure how this rant is at all relevant to this discussion or what provoked it .What about the ones that are actually learning properly?? There are bums in every society, yes even the IDF has a few ,but that does not invalidate the group as a whole
I'm not sure why some people think they need to start of their comments with some sort of condescending quirk such as ''lol" .There is surely a responsibility to uphold the Torah and it's values especially here in the holy land I don't see why anyone is exempt from that . Torah is an essential part of being Jewish and having eretz yisrael as anything.
Not a bad idea. Let's open up seminars and outreach programs to teach them. And let's finance it by reducing the budgets of those kollels and yeshivot whose members are the שבט לוי types defined by the רמב"ם that can therefore continue to learn without depending on public funds.
Please dont put words in my mouth, All I am saying is that my point could be addressesed independently without using it as a springboard to further attack. Assuming all Chareidim were behaving as you would like army and all. Would you not call for balance from secular society
The burden of torah is associated with stone throwing, trash burning, COVID breaking, road blocking , financisl shenanigans, not dealing with abusers properly once discovered and inter-communal fighting. Once chareidim stop being mechallel Hashem v'toraso, broadcast wideltly through the internet, there might be something to talk about.
Generally unknown to the outside world. They don't know what minyonim are. But they certainly put 'benei torah' in a bad light in the eyes of ba'alei battim, all the more so bein hazmanin when they are packed.
I'm not a great therapist. No point constantly mentioning them to me to try and relieve yourself of the itch they give you.
I never said anyone should become Chareidi nor did I say anyone shouldn't go to the Army, but surely for the existence of the Jewish people adherence to Torah is also vital. If you believe chareidim need that aswell thats fine .
Is not of supreme importance. But there comes a time when there is a need for some type of balance. A place for Torah and a place for for life sustaining and saving activities for the community which includes Chareidim.
פיקוח נפש is above all(except for 3 cases). Also this is a democracy with freedom of religion. But public safety and protection is basic to every State ,whether monarchy, dictatorship,or democracy. It is the first and basic reason for the existence of every State or political entity of communal existence.
So now you just contradicted youself earlier you said "No one said that Torah study Is not of supreme importance" now you say "this is a democracy with freedom of religion" if balance is required surely it should be required by all ?
I would appreciate an intellectual answer as opposed to a childish insult what am I making an excuse for?. My comment by no mean undermines or contradicts any of the points made. I am just implying there is another aspect to this conversation that hasnt been dealt with.
what do you mean "hasn't been dealt with"? There are innumerable organizations that deal with teaching Torah to the nation. Including a museum adjacent to Beit Shemesh.
You clearly refer to financial "Restraints" on Chareidi Instistutions why not call for the same to secular ones who dont integrate Torah. Surely these organizations are nowhere near enough (Especially if you exclude the chareidi ones) There are numerous organizations who help chareidim integrate into the workforce as well that but that problem hasn't been solved
Not a bad idea. We should increase funding to secular institutions who add Torah study to their mission. Would you agree to that? And what if such funds came from the kollel budget? Or is one kind of learning more valuable then another?
Or/And maybe deduct funding from those who don't, after all if both types of learning are equally valuable they should be treated the same same with regards to additions and the suggested deductions
It may or may not be valid, but that is not the topic right now. That debating style is known as 'whataboutism'. Common in Yeshivaland, but not amongst serious debaters who know what they are doing.
You know, every time the US mentioned Chernoybl the Soviets said "yes, but what about three mile' or something like that.
Again I am by no means debating the points in this article , as I said in one of my comments above. I understand fully what the topic is and thats precisely my question, why are secular Jews not included in this broader topic.
"How do you solve the problem..." - YOU don't. You're like some Russian czar thinking he's going to fix "the Jewish problem." The "problem" exists only in the mind of the anti-semite. If Charedi society want to make certain changes it will happen organically, on its own terms. All the Neeman Commissions of the past 50 years have accomplished nothing. But when the community wanted to do it voluntarily - suddenly we see thousands of enlistments, and who knows how many hundreds or thousands more in the process.
Honestly, its good that extremely foolish comments like yours are just written in a museum director's english blog, where they're never seen by actual Charedim. (That goes double for the brilliance in the previous post, like "Charedim are incapable of grasping responsibilities on a large scale" or "Charedim can't understand that large events require planning.") (Imagine if we replaced the word "Charedim" with "Jews"). If such stupidity was ever mouthed by someone who potentially mattered, like Lieberman, it might enrage the society and cause them to stop the incremental changes they've already made.
Do you think that the draft should be abolished as it involves forcing people who would otherwise choose not to serve to serve and instead rely on volunteers who will go on their own terms along with thousands of Charedim who do the same?
If so, do you think that we can really raise an army representing such a high percentage of the population without the draft? If not, how do we get a large enough army without a draft?
I’m sorry. I still don’t understand. You made a comment and then I asked you a question about your position to clarify your position. What does that have to do with Israeli Arabs?
When I first visited Israel fifty-odd years ago I was surprised to discover that even a fair number of Yerushalmim had served in miluim. (I even had a rosh kollel who had a picture of himself in an army uniform.) What was the motivating factor for such people and can it be revived?
I think that the problematic suggestion is probably the right one. The first thing is to emancipate the shtetl economically and educationally. The you can worry about IDF service. But it may be too late for all of that because forming a coalition without the Charedi parties will get more and more difficult.
I think the reduction of money from yeshvot that do not send students to the
army or similar activities or National Service will be very effective.
It will also give an excuse to Rabbanim to cooperate in encouraging Armyservice. It will weaken the stranglehold of those Rabbanim who fight against any type of army service or National Service.
This is the first time i think i can say Rabbi Slifkin has a lack of imagination.
Of course it can be solved - maybe not easily but through a logical thought process.
It requires looking at what the issues really are for charedim, it involves looking at the external context, and then it involves putting the two together.
Charedim basically do not want to serve in the IDF firstly because they do not want to mingle with secular society, and secondly because they do not want a break from a lifetime commitment to Torah study. If there is a solution that respects these imperatives it is better to find one than riding roughshod over them because - whatever the dirty politics - these are sincere and Torah-aligned imperatives.
In the external context, i have been blogging repeatedly since early 2023, well before 7th October, Israel needs a Home Guard to protect civilian communities, especially those near Israel's borders (and noting, the Talmud emphasises that maintaining strong borders is a particular obligation). 11 countries have a Home Guard.
Putting the two together, the obvious solution which will address Israel's needs, while respecting Charedi imperatives, is not to force Charedim into the IDF but rather create a parallel organisation which creates a suitable environment in which Charedim will feel comfortable to serve that fulfils a national need.
1. A parallel organisation - just like United Hatzala and Zaka are independent of MDA with its own ethos and procedures, they coordinate with MDA and emergency services, so too could a Home Guard be independent of the IDF with its own ethos and procedures but coordinates with IDF, the police and security services
2. Suitable for Charedim - the Home Guard can be structured around yeshivot in border communities, with yeshivot having dual purpose as a centre of Torah learning, and as a Home Guard 'base'. The day could blend 8 hours of Torah study with 8 hours of Home Guard service rotating on a shift basis
3. National security contribution - the Home Guard could play multiple roles: security patrols, border observation, infrastructure strengthening, civic preparedness, assisting people to shelters, first response, civic rescue, etc. It would also address the fear that communities face today where a huge proportion of 18-45 year old men have to deploy to the army or reserves, who is left to protect the communities afterwards.
4. Fairness - Rabbi Slifkin often asks, is it fair that non-Charedi parents send their children to the army in the face of danger while Charedim do not? By deploying yeshivot in border communities, Charedim would also be in the face of danger.
In my view it is an obvious solution that addresses everyone's issues. Rather than obsessing how to get Charedim into the IDF it creates an alternative route to meaningful national service that respects Charedi imperatives
"Many believe that the smarter thing to do is to simply forget about getting charedim into the army, and focus on getting them into the professional workforce instead"
I fully agree. It may be unfair, but don't expect people to be open to the world around them when you don't allow them out. It may not produce much results this generation, but it will help for the next. US is much more open to the world around them for this reason. But sticking to principle only entrenches the issue and guarantees little success. As any wise man says, don't be right, be smart.
An idea that has been floating around for some time (Idan Eretz is a strong advocate of this) is to end mandatory IDF service for *everyone*. Instead, service will be encouraged by significantly raising the salaries of people who do join the army.
The army is a large enough percentage of the population that this is unlikely to work. The sectors who currently don't serve pay the least taxes. You'd be raising taxes on the sector of the country who serves to get those same people to serve. I think that they'd prefer the current system, where you sacrifice your 2-3 years + reserve duty and then you are done rather then 2-3 years + reserve duty for higher compensation and then a lifetime of higher taxes. Unless you think that the army is too large which seems unlikely given the current situation.
Really! You think many people will join Tzahal to put their lives in danger or G-d forbid maimed for a nice salary?! Especially for the "goyishe" State.?!
This is meant to solve the problem of Haredim not joining the workforce. As Rabbi Slifkin wrote, the problem with simply giving Haredim army exemption in order to let them join the workforce, is that it would be unfair towards the rest of Israeli society.
According to the Charedim - During Beis Hamikdash I and II, during other wars involving the ancient Israelites-Jews was there a huge percent of the population not directly contributing to the war efforts and just sitting on the sidelines praying and learning Torah ?
Anyway, why cant (assuming they are not doing it already) the Charedim contribute in tangible ways such as medics, in supply chains, stocking, drivers etc: Surely they can take off a few hours a day or alternate days studying Torah ?
Now for a difficult question. Why does Hashem need prayers and Torah study from so many Charedim to trigger his involvement in this war ? Does he need a very very loud chorus to be influenced ? Would half the Charedim volume not work on Hashem ?
A message for Noson (Jesus) Slifkin and all his apostles that comment on this blog. This discussion and Chareidi bashing is totally counterproductive at this time. It is a time for unity not pirud.
At this time, Yeshiva people and Kollel people couldn't serve in the army even if they wanted to since they are untrained.
At this time, everybody should do what they have the capacity to do right now. Learning and dovening B'zchus Klal Yisroel. Giving money for refuah, security purposes or other needs for the war effort. Give blood for the wounded, etc. Even driving vehicles such as food delivery trucks for the men who have been called up.
In 1973 when the war broke out I was learning in Yeshiva in E"Y. I knew how to drive a truck, so I went to the office where volunteers sign up and told them I could drive a truck. However, they told me there were enough truck drivers at present and I was never contacted.
”We certainly cannot afford to be redirecting troops away from the front lines to be protecting Kiryat Sefer, Beitar and Ofakim.”
What a hateful sentence! So we can only redirect troops to Kfar Sabba and Raanana because those communities serve in the IDF – but the charedim can die?! Are you actually suggesting that charedi communities have given up their right to be protected by the IDF because they don’t serve? I don’t think even Yair Lapid and the hard left ever said anything like that!
It’s one thing to say it’s unfair and agonizing – I get that – but to wish harm to charedim because of it is just pure hate.
Huh? By singling out charedi cities you are clearly implying that we can "afford" to redirect troops to non-charedi cities. What am I missing? Did anyone else here make the same "mistake" I made?
You simply didn't understand my sentence. When I said that we cannot afford to do it, that means that it is unacceptable to create a situation in which the IDF is weakened everywhere else, because the charedim in towns that need a lot of protection refuse to provide soldiers for their own communities.
"Unacceptable to create a situation" is talking about before the fact AND IS NOT WHAT YOU WROTE.
What you did actually write is "We cannot afford to do it", which is about reacting to this "unacceptable" situation. These are two different things. What you did actually write implies that there should be a different reaction to charedi and non-charedi towns - a difference between those we can and can't afford to protect.
Apology accepted, but I think you should correct your post. Also, to be 100% clear - Do you agree that IDF protection should not be in any way commensurate with a specific community's contribution to the IDF?
So are you saying a town with non-talmidei chachomim, the torah learning of the talmidei chachomim is ineffective? What about a country with non-talmidei chachomim? Are you finally agreeing that in practice, in EY, torah does not protect, due to the non-talmidei chachomim?
What is a 'talmid chochom' for this rule? Are yeshivah bochurim considered 'talmidei chachomim'? What about cheider yingelech? Does their torah protect them? Does the torah of talmidei chachomim protect the cheider yingelech? You paskened the torah of talmudei chachomim only protects talmidei chachomim. If so,
who protects the cheider yingelech? The Zionist soldiers? Chas v'shalom.
Come on, this is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. We need a seifer on this, a kuntrus, something so we know the parameters. These pikuach nefesh issues cannot be left to a bunch of bloggers on the triefoh internet.
Really? So in the case of a bomb, missile and other assorted nasties lo oleinu we will see selective death and injury. Waiting for the nissim giluim, but past evidence does not support that. Nor does 'kiven shenitan reshus l'mashchis', but I am sure you can kvetch that away.
Why not write an article to the hundreds of thousands of secular Irsaelis on how they should share the burden of Torah?
I think you'd have a hard sell getting hundreds of thousands of secular Israelis to learn Torah because you want them to.
I'll make you a different deal.. Several of my sons are currently called up on reserve duty because of the war. Could you send over 3-4 highly trained Yeshiva guys to fight, and my kids would happily switch them and spend a few weeks in Yeshiva?
Being hard doesnt make it invalid , Torah is as essential a part as anything to the Jewish existence , as much you believe those that learn should serve surely the opposite is also true. Im not sure how your second point is at all related to my comment. I certainly did not mean to disrespect your children or anyone elses serving the country.
Surely you know the halachot of milchemet mitzvah. The yeshiva students have no business sitting around while others do the halachic and moral thing and fight. The Hillul hashem of the cowardice and selfishness of the Haredi community is perhaps the greatest in Jewish history.
What in what I said above tells you that I am of the opinion of what you just mentioned
Not at all. Your response was polite and respectful.
As I understand your point, you'd like to see more people learning Torah to "share" that burden, while many of us are advocating for Chareidim sharing the burden of fighting. So I'm offering a swap. My kids would love a break from the fighting by going to learn, and that way some Chareidi young men could serve without worrying about less Torah being learnt.
An interesting idea , but that does not deal with secular Israelis.
Very cute. I'd much rather sit with a Gemara and a cup of coffee than go to work every day!
Not to mention that a not insignificant percentage of Chareidim (a) don't actually sit and learn all day and (b) hang around the beis medrash learning half-heartedly because they have nothing else better to do because their community won't let them function as normal members of society.
For what it's worth, I know someone who Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach told personally that if he had the koach for a fight, he would institute nationwide tests in the yeshivos to make sure they're actually learning something. Everyone else would be kicked out of the yeshivos. How about them apples?
Well, we were assured that kollel was 'difficult and inconvenient'. Those of us who have experienced both the workplace and kollel know what nonsense that is. But its a typical statement from somebody 'in learning' who thinks he knows it all but in practice knows nothing outside the walls of the beis hamedrash (other than outside those wall lies sources of cash)
I found kollel much harder than working
Im not really sure how this rant is at all relevant to this discussion or what provoked it .What about the ones that are actually learning properly?? There are bums in every society, yes even the IDF has a few ,but that does not invalidate the group as a whole
Lol, there's no "shared burden of learning"!
I'm not sure why some people think they need to start of their comments with some sort of condescending quirk such as ''lol" .There is surely a responsibility to uphold the Torah and it's values especially here in the holy land I don't see why anyone is exempt from that . Torah is an essential part of being Jewish and having eretz yisrael as anything.
Not a bad idea. Let's open up seminars and outreach programs to teach them. And let's finance it by reducing the budgets of those kollels and yeshivot whose members are the שבט לוי types defined by the רמב"ם that can therefore continue to learn without depending on public funds.
Why twist everything to be directed against the Chareidim its so unnecessary , my point can be easily be addressed independently.
So I take it, you're opposed to fund Torah learning among secular if it means less funding for שבט לוי types who would learn even if not funded?
The question is: do you really mean what you say? Do you put your money where your mouth is?
Please dont put words in my mouth, All I am saying is that my point could be addressesed independently without using it as a springboard to further attack. Assuming all Chareidim were behaving as you would like army and all. Would you not call for balance from secular society
Yes. I would want the secular to do more מצות and לימוד תורה. And funding for such programs should be more balanced.
Are you not in favor of such programs?
Of course my question is why it is not addressed with the same vigour as that of those not going to the army
yes we absolutely need thousands of more people to learn baba kama 10 hours per day its an absolutely need for the klal.
We are talking about a society bringing up children who wont know what a Gemorrah is.
The burden of torah is associated with stone throwing, trash burning, COVID breaking, road blocking , financisl shenanigans, not dealing with abusers properly once discovered and inter-communal fighting. Once chareidim stop being mechallel Hashem v'toraso, broadcast wideltly through the internet, there might be something to talk about.
Minyan factories
having "Writes Irrationalist Modoxism" next to your name is great look!
but watch your back - i think it is cause to be banned quicker on this blog;)
Generally unknown to the outside world. They don't know what minyonim are. But they certainly put 'benei torah' in a bad light in the eyes of ba'alei battim, all the more so bein hazmanin when they are packed.
I'm not a great therapist. No point constantly mentioning them to me to try and relieve yourself of the itch they give you.
I never said anyone should become Chareidi nor did I say anyone shouldn't go to the Army, but surely for the existence of the Jewish people adherence to Torah is also vital. If you believe chareidim need that aswell thats fine .
No one said that Torah study
Is not of supreme importance. But there comes a time when there is a need for some type of balance. A place for Torah and a place for for life sustaining and saving activities for the community which includes Chareidim.
Exactly and thats why Im asking why not demand the same Balance from secular Jews.
פיקוח נפש is above all(except for 3 cases). Also this is a democracy with freedom of religion. But public safety and protection is basic to every State ,whether monarchy, dictatorship,or democracy. It is the first and basic reason for the existence of every State or political entity of communal existence.
So now you just contradicted youself earlier you said "No one said that Torah study Is not of supreme importance" now you say "this is a democracy with freedom of religion" if balance is required surely it should be required by all ?
There are more Jews studying Torah today then at any time in history.
Thats very nice , but it doesnt exempt those who dont . The IDF is also larger and more sophisticated than ever.
Excuses excuses! תתבייש!
I would appreciate an intellectual answer as opposed to a childish insult what am I making an excuse for?. My comment by no mean undermines or contradicts any of the points made. I am just implying there is another aspect to this conversation that hasnt been dealt with.
what do you mean "hasn't been dealt with"? There are innumerable organizations that deal with teaching Torah to the nation. Including a museum adjacent to Beit Shemesh.
You clearly refer to financial "Restraints" on Chareidi Instistutions why not call for the same to secular ones who dont integrate Torah. Surely these organizations are nowhere near enough (Especially if you exclude the chareidi ones) There are numerous organizations who help chareidim integrate into the workforce as well that but that problem hasn't been solved
Not a bad idea. We should increase funding to secular institutions who add Torah study to their mission. Would you agree to that? And what if such funds came from the kollel budget? Or is one kind of learning more valuable then another?
Or/And maybe deduct funding from those who don't, after all if both types of learning are equally valuable they should be treated the same same with regards to additions and the suggested deductions
Ask an intellectual question rather than whataboitism.
Would someone like to exaplain why the question is invalid? Ive only received insults so far
It may or may not be valid, but that is not the topic right now. That debating style is known as 'whataboutism'. Common in Yeshivaland, but not amongst serious debaters who know what they are doing.
You know, every time the US mentioned Chernoybl the Soviets said "yes, but what about three mile' or something like that.
Again I am by no means debating the points in this article , as I said in one of my comments above. I understand fully what the topic is and thats precisely my question, why are secular Jews not included in this broader topic.
"How do you solve the problem..." - YOU don't. You're like some Russian czar thinking he's going to fix "the Jewish problem." The "problem" exists only in the mind of the anti-semite. If Charedi society want to make certain changes it will happen organically, on its own terms. All the Neeman Commissions of the past 50 years have accomplished nothing. But when the community wanted to do it voluntarily - suddenly we see thousands of enlistments, and who knows how many hundreds or thousands more in the process.
Honestly, its good that extremely foolish comments like yours are just written in a museum director's english blog, where they're never seen by actual Charedim. (That goes double for the brilliance in the previous post, like "Charedim are incapable of grasping responsibilities on a large scale" or "Charedim can't understand that large events require planning.") (Imagine if we replaced the word "Charedim" with "Jews"). If such stupidity was ever mouthed by someone who potentially mattered, like Lieberman, it might enrage the society and cause them to stop the incremental changes they've already made.
Do you think that the draft should be abolished as it involves forcing people who would otherwise choose not to serve to serve and instead rely on volunteers who will go on their own terms along with thousands of Charedim who do the same?
If so, do you think that we can really raise an army representing such a high percentage of the population without the draft? If not, how do we get a large enough army without a draft?
Ask the Israeli Arabs what they think.
I don’t understand your answer.
You asked me a question, and I answered by saying you should ask the Israeli Arabs what they think. I dont know how to be any clearer.
I’m sorry. I still don’t understand. You made a comment and then I asked you a question about your position to clarify your position. What does that have to do with Israeli Arabs?
When I first visited Israel fifty-odd years ago I was surprised to discover that even a fair number of Yerushalmim had served in miluim. (I even had a rosh kollel who had a picture of himself in an army uniform.) What was the motivating factor for such people and can it be revived?
Melech Press
That was before Begin's coalition deal (1977) that dropped the quotas.
Wow. Brilliant idea. Hooray.
I think that the problematic suggestion is probably the right one. The first thing is to emancipate the shtetl economically and educationally. The you can worry about IDF service. But it may be too late for all of that because forming a coalition without the Charedi parties will get more and more difficult.
I think the reduction of money from yeshvot that do not send students to the
army or similar activities or National Service will be very effective.
It will also give an excuse to Rabbanim to cooperate in encouraging Armyservice. It will weaken the stranglehold of those Rabbanim who fight against any type of army service or National Service.
Keep beating the dead horse.
This is the first time i think i can say Rabbi Slifkin has a lack of imagination.
Of course it can be solved - maybe not easily but through a logical thought process.
It requires looking at what the issues really are for charedim, it involves looking at the external context, and then it involves putting the two together.
Charedim basically do not want to serve in the IDF firstly because they do not want to mingle with secular society, and secondly because they do not want a break from a lifetime commitment to Torah study. If there is a solution that respects these imperatives it is better to find one than riding roughshod over them because - whatever the dirty politics - these are sincere and Torah-aligned imperatives.
In the external context, i have been blogging repeatedly since early 2023, well before 7th October, Israel needs a Home Guard to protect civilian communities, especially those near Israel's borders (and noting, the Talmud emphasises that maintaining strong borders is a particular obligation). 11 countries have a Home Guard.
Putting the two together, the obvious solution which will address Israel's needs, while respecting Charedi imperatives, is not to force Charedim into the IDF but rather create a parallel organisation which creates a suitable environment in which Charedim will feel comfortable to serve that fulfils a national need.
1. A parallel organisation - just like United Hatzala and Zaka are independent of MDA with its own ethos and procedures, they coordinate with MDA and emergency services, so too could a Home Guard be independent of the IDF with its own ethos and procedures but coordinates with IDF, the police and security services
2. Suitable for Charedim - the Home Guard can be structured around yeshivot in border communities, with yeshivot having dual purpose as a centre of Torah learning, and as a Home Guard 'base'. The day could blend 8 hours of Torah study with 8 hours of Home Guard service rotating on a shift basis
3. National security contribution - the Home Guard could play multiple roles: security patrols, border observation, infrastructure strengthening, civic preparedness, assisting people to shelters, first response, civic rescue, etc. It would also address the fear that communities face today where a huge proportion of 18-45 year old men have to deploy to the army or reserves, who is left to protect the communities afterwards.
4. Fairness - Rabbi Slifkin often asks, is it fair that non-Charedi parents send their children to the army in the face of danger while Charedim do not? By deploying yeshivot in border communities, Charedim would also be in the face of danger.
In my view it is an obvious solution that addresses everyone's issues. Rather than obsessing how to get Charedim into the IDF it creates an alternative route to meaningful national service that respects Charedi imperatives
"Many believe that the smarter thing to do is to simply forget about getting charedim into the army, and focus on getting them into the professional workforce instead"
I fully agree. It may be unfair, but don't expect people to be open to the world around them when you don't allow them out. It may not produce much results this generation, but it will help for the next. US is much more open to the world around them for this reason. But sticking to principle only entrenches the issue and guarantees little success. As any wise man says, don't be right, be smart.
An idea that has been floating around for some time (Idan Eretz is a strong advocate of this) is to end mandatory IDF service for *everyone*. Instead, service will be encouraged by significantly raising the salaries of people who do join the army.
The army is a large enough percentage of the population that this is unlikely to work. The sectors who currently don't serve pay the least taxes. You'd be raising taxes on the sector of the country who serves to get those same people to serve. I think that they'd prefer the current system, where you sacrifice your 2-3 years + reserve duty and then you are done rather then 2-3 years + reserve duty for higher compensation and then a lifetime of higher taxes. Unless you think that the army is too large which seems unlikely given the current situation.
Really! You think many people will join Tzahal to put their lives in danger or G-d forbid maimed for a nice salary?! Especially for the "goyishe" State.?!
This is meant to solve the problem of Haredim not joining the workforce. As Rabbi Slifkin wrote, the problem with simply giving Haredim army exemption in order to let them join the workforce, is that it would be unfair towards the rest of Israeli society.
According to the Charedim - During Beis Hamikdash I and II, during other wars involving the ancient Israelites-Jews was there a huge percent of the population not directly contributing to the war efforts and just sitting on the sidelines praying and learning Torah ?
Anyway, why cant (assuming they are not doing it already) the Charedim contribute in tangible ways such as medics, in supply chains, stocking, drivers etc: Surely they can take off a few hours a day or alternate days studying Torah ?
Now for a difficult question. Why does Hashem need prayers and Torah study from so many Charedim to trigger his involvement in this war ? Does he need a very very loud chorus to be influenced ? Would half the Charedim volume not work on Hashem ?
"You don't"
I always like when I can sincerely agree with you!
A message for Noson (Jesus) Slifkin and all his apostles that comment on this blog. This discussion and Chareidi bashing is totally counterproductive at this time. It is a time for unity not pirud.
At this time, Yeshiva people and Kollel people couldn't serve in the army even if they wanted to since they are untrained.
At this time, everybody should do what they have the capacity to do right now. Learning and dovening B'zchus Klal Yisroel. Giving money for refuah, security purposes or other needs for the war effort. Give blood for the wounded, etc. Even driving vehicles such as food delivery trucks for the men who have been called up.
In 1973 when the war broke out I was learning in Yeshiva in E"Y. I knew how to drive a truck, so I went to the office where volunteers sign up and told them I could drive a truck. However, they told me there were enough truck drivers at present and I was never contacted.
Just STOP the damn bickering.
"A message for Noson (Jesus) Slifkin"
המכנה שם לחברו...אין להם חלק לעולם הבא
You told me that before. You have a nonsensical understanding of that chazal. Not surprising for an "apostle!"
”We certainly cannot afford to be redirecting troops away from the front lines to be protecting Kiryat Sefer, Beitar and Ofakim.”
What a hateful sentence! So we can only redirect troops to Kfar Sabba and Raanana because those communities serve in the IDF – but the charedim can die?! Are you actually suggesting that charedi communities have given up their right to be protected by the IDF because they don’t serve? I don’t think even Yair Lapid and the hard left ever said anything like that!
It’s one thing to say it’s unfair and agonizing – I get that – but to wish harm to charedim because of it is just pure hate.
Goodness. Please work on your reading comprehension.
Huh? By singling out charedi cities you are clearly implying that we can "afford" to redirect troops to non-charedi cities. What am I missing? Did anyone else here make the same "mistake" I made?
You simply didn't understand my sentence. When I said that we cannot afford to do it, that means that it is unacceptable to create a situation in which the IDF is weakened everywhere else, because the charedim in towns that need a lot of protection refuse to provide soldiers for their own communities.
"Unacceptable to create a situation" is talking about before the fact AND IS NOT WHAT YOU WROTE.
What you did actually write is "We cannot afford to do it", which is about reacting to this "unacceptable" situation. These are two different things. What you did actually write implies that there should be a different reaction to charedi and non-charedi towns - a difference between those we can and can't afford to protect.
I'm sorry that either I wasn't clear enough or you misunderstood me.
Apology accepted, but I think you should correct your post. Also, to be 100% clear - Do you agree that IDF protection should not be in any way commensurate with a specific community's contribution to the IDF?
“How do you solve the problem of the enormous and growing charedi community being utterly opposed to serving in the IDF?
You don’t.
The first step is to recognize that there is no effective, large-scale, short term solution.”
“Conversely, the court will have to penalize charedim, or charedi institutions, which do not serve in the army.”
If this is not a contradiction, I don’t know what is.
" We certainly cannot afford to be redirecting troops away from the front lines to be protecting Kiryat Sefer, Beitar and Ofakim."
And according to the mayor of ביתר, it's not enough, and he's begging for more protection:
https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/s3sxl0
The "City of Torah" doesn't rely on its Torah to protect it? Color me shocked.
Besides Talmidei Chachamim, Beitar also has plenty of Slifkins. They need protection, and Rubinstein cares for them too.
So are you saying a town with non-talmidei chachomim, the torah learning of the talmidei chachomim is ineffective? What about a country with non-talmidei chachomim? Are you finally agreeing that in practice, in EY, torah does not protect, due to the non-talmidei chachomim?
It's effective for the Talmidei Chachamim.
Fascinating. So soldiers are able to protect others, but talmidei chachamim are only able to protect themselves.
Thats what chazal say.
What is a 'talmid chochom' for this rule? Are yeshivah bochurim considered 'talmidei chachomim'? What about cheider yingelech? Does their torah protect them? Does the torah of talmidei chachomim protect the cheider yingelech? You paskened the torah of talmudei chachomim only protects talmidei chachomim. If so,
who protects the cheider yingelech? The Zionist soldiers? Chas v'shalom.
Come on, this is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. We need a seifer on this, a kuntrus, something so we know the parameters. These pikuach nefesh issues cannot be left to a bunch of bloggers on the triefoh internet.
Really? So in the case of a bomb, missile and other assorted nasties lo oleinu we will see selective death and injury. Waiting for the nissim giluim, but past evidence does not support that. Nor does 'kiven shenitan reshus l'mashchis', but I am sure you can kvetch that away.