Why many charedim do not davven for soldiers
In Chutz l'aretz, at least in America, almost every single shul is saying tehillim. Most shuls said Yom Kippur Katan and some people even fasted. You're just a psychotic hater, so consumed by your hate for Chareidim that you don't realize how ridiculous you look. You're like a crazy man walking down the street naked thinking he's Mashiach and all onlookers are just laughing at him and feeling bad for him. Refuah Sheleima. I should start davening for you. Don't worry, I'll even mention you by name!
Amazing. When anybody comments that the viewpoints your attaching to Chareidim are not even close to a majority your answer is "how do you know how many people hold the same view as you" but when you wish to farshmutz all large portions of Chareidim its suddenly "tens or hundreds of thousands". Based on what do you have those numbers???? I live in Beitar every shul is saying Tehillim. Lists of soliders names are going all over the place. People by the hundreds and thousands yes thousands are helping in many different ways. We get it you hate Chareidi society because of what you feel they did to you however the vast majority of Chareidim do not believe what you are attributing to them. Even the shuls that don't announce specifically that they're saying Tehillim for soliders ask anybody in the shul why there saying Tehillim and soliders will be right there with there kavanos
your first paragraph says it all. you think we have it out against you and need to redefine our positions as you point out different things -"Whenever I report the seemingly preposterous statements or actions of a charedi rabbinic figure, my opponents have to make a decision. Do they defend the statement/ actions? Do they claim that I have misinterpreted them? Or do they say that the rabbi is an aberration and not at all representative of others in the charedi community?"
let me break it you: we don't redefine our positions as they go. we have a very clear position. and when you - yes, you - make the idiotic move of pretending that these things that don't represent us are us, and we point out that you used a brush too wide, you blame us as if we're moving the goalpost.
you're using debate methods that apparently people are falling for and i'm calling you out on your shtusim
what you should've done was call our shreiber and say that this is something that should be spoken about, just as they speak out against other things, in which perhaps you'd be right (you're only wrong in this regard because of other reasons entirely). but instead you pretend as if this guy's position is mainstream and as if we are backing off post facto.
What's interesting about this post is not the frothing hatred and intellectual vacuity, those are par for the course. It's not the logical cul de sacs and non sequiturs ("you can't prove that there's not a lot of them so let's bash just in case"). or the inability to recognize distinctions (there's there's a large group that agree they don't deserve hakaras hatov because... some prefer to pray quietly to avoid glorifying a philosophy they consider anathema). Again, wouldn't have expected otherwise.
Na, what's most interesting is your use of the term "my opponents".
Has it occurred to you that maybe communities don't like to be publicly, repeatedly, and unfairly trashed and misrepresented, so some people take the time to come into this sludgepool to occasionally set the record straight?
Quite hilarious that you truly live your life believing yourself to be the hounded victim persecuted by your "opponents".
Get over it, man. I truly feel bad for the trauma you suffered two decades ago, and quite possibly you were unfairly treated then. But for at least the past decade, you've been the aggressor. People who respond to your vile diatribes and hate mongering are not your persecutors. They are simply injecting a bit of reason and context for the good of the many who fall for your pathetic garbage.
He did not actually say “charedim do not have any reason to feel… grateful to soldiers” (he did say that about feeling connected). What he said was just as bad but it explains the problem better. He accused his audience of never feeling gratitude anyway so why bother here (and pretending there is no reason to have gratitude when someone is paid/forced (and that all soldiers are little more than slaves), which no charedim actually believe, as evidenced by Moshe not doing the first 3 makos and another Gemara about being an “oreach tov”). It’s a simple problem of recognition. They have a global policy of refusing to recognize the legitimacy of anything other than their own religious approach. What’s most significant here is how foolish he sounded even to his own students because, as this question of gratitude for/davening for soldiers reveals, the Torah obviously does not allow for that sort of policy. You should not criticize them here for their views about soldiers, which they don’t really believe in other contexts - you should criticize them for refusing to recognize the rest of the world even when it results in such incredibly absurd positions.
I condemn people not davening for soldiers.
Interesting that a rationalist can suddenly belive that davening can change things...
The fact that Shreiber still holds a position of importance and was not condemned as narcissistic is a terrible indictment of some of the chareidi leadership in Eretz Yisroel. Full stop. What he said was horrifying.
That said, I don't think that your painting of all chareidim as agreeing with him is correct, nor wise.
Some years ago, I lost faith with the senior Rabbonim in the Chareidi community. Unfortunately, too many of us have unrealistic faith in these Rabbis and they rely on this hype to maintain this image.
Speaking to them can be hugely disappointing at best, but if I didn't know better, could put me off Yiddishkeit.
Now, if you have a Tosfos that you don't understand, there are plenty of Chareidi Rabbonim who can genuinely help you.
The problem with the Chareidi approach is that learning has become an end in itself, rather than a means to an end.
The actual main reason to learn Torah is to learn what you are meant to do.
I could quote you Rishonim and Achronim on this subject, but RNS has already dealt with this disconnect between learning ("Lishmoh") and authentic Yiddishkeit in his Seforim.
IMO, there are perfectly legitimate reasons for a parent or teacher to discourage young men and women from joining the IDF. Is there anyone on the board here who can simply and proudly embrace the position of Rabbi Feldman? That is, we don't want to glorify the soldiers of the IDF and therefore we don't take on religious rituals and acts that specifically honor these soldiers because that sends the wrong message to our youth. Why is it so hard to own this position?
Seems like all of the complaints on the board avoid the core issue and instead focus on name calling, or "tone", or concoct some form of straw man argument.
A more general point: the real reason that a person normally does anything is because that is what they are conditioned to do. The reasons are things that our brains come up with afterwards. I have little doubt that if the Charedi leadership taught that praying directly for individual IDF soldiers was the Charedi contribution to the war effort that most Charedim would start doing that instead. I mention this in part to deal with the constant objections of "but Chareidim really do care and want to help". I have no doubt at all that the vast majority do in some way. But they go along with societal influences just like everyone else.
I am someone who generally agrees with the primary arguments you make but finds that (a) you have so much negativity that it’s “yatza scharo b’hefsedo” and (b) you lack a meaningful vision of any derech hatorah and therefore lead people in no good direction and are overall a bad influence when you could have been a good one. This is an example of both. Do you really need to hide behind “you against your opponents”? Is it not enough simply to recognize that many people are not aware of how many charedim in Israel won’t daven for soldiers and welcome that so many of your “opponents” agree with you about how wrong that is? Do you have to make this about how aggrieved you are and how everyone who pushed back on your last post must be an “opponent” sadly stooping to inappropriate tactics? I really wish you were better than this.
Can confirm that my brother would absolutely be horrified to daven for the IDF, or any part of the state.
The famous audio of one of the biggest American Hasidic Rebbes (rhymes with donov) a few weeks ago, at a yom tfilla, explained that we are not davening for any of the soldiers chas vshalom, only that the "situation" should resolve itself. The audio is published in many places, and I can send it to anyone that is interested.
There is no apathy to the plight of the soldiers. There are historical reasons for not including the blessing for the state of Israel, which is what the chareidim are really referring to.
It is patently false that chareidim do not pray for individual soldiers!!! There are entire groups set up for this exact purpose!
In chutz la'aretz there are many shuls that say tehilim for the soilders. That same rav I mentioned in my last comment makes a speacial misheberach for the chayalim every time something comes up. That being said, we can't ignore the direction the wind is blowing. Advising not to go to the rally and not davening for the soilders. They are one and the same. My question is how can we force change from within?
It seems as society opens up more and more or they're losing more and more of their flock they have to become even more extreme
Disgusting, disgraceful. If I were a soldier I would take groups of soldiers to Chareidi shuls on Shabbos and commandeer the kriyas Hatorah when mishabeyrachs are made, or before Mussaf, and I would loudly, publicly, recite a prayer for the soldiers and demand that everybody answer Amein. And I would keep repeating until the kehilla responded!!! ( No continuation of services until met). Every Shabbos! To as many shuls as groups of soldiers would show up in. Everyone benefits: the soldiers go to shul, the kehilla gets the opportunity to do right; and HKB"H is happy!
After the war, I'll put out my proposal to get the Chareidim into the military.