In Chutz l'aretz, at least in America, almost every single shul is saying tehillim. Most shuls said Yom Kippur Katan and some people even fasted. You're just a psychotic hater, so consumed by your hate for Chareidim that you don't realize how ridiculous you look. You're like a crazy man walking down the street naked thinking he's Mashiach and all onlookers are just laughing at him and feeling bad for him. Refuah Sheleima. I should start davening for you. Don't worry, I'll even mention you by name!
Although I don't condone the rudeness to Rabbi Slifkin, who I'm sure has only good intentions, you are absolutely correct he has no idea what he's talking about in this matter and is letting hatred, seeming very deep hatred, cloud his judgement. Look how he responds to Dov Kagan who is entrenched in an Israeli chareidi community by saying "Read the comment from Moish". Totally unacceptable. I am actually shocked, given Rabbi Slifkin's high level of scholarship and intellectual honesty elsewhere.
Rabbi Slifkin, nobody is extrapolating here except for you, and you are doing it in the wrong direction. All the critics in your comments are entrenched within chareidi communities, and are telling you how wrong you are. The "contrary testimony" is a guy saying "my brother wouldn't daven for the soldiers" whereas the critics both in chutz laaretz and Israel are reporting that all the chareidi shuls in their neighborhoods communities are saying Tehillim. There is no comparison. It's like if I would bring "contrary testimony" from anti Israel Jewish Tik Tok activists that Non Chareidim care nothing for the hostages or soldiers. Bottom line, it is you who is truly ignoring overwhelming contrary testimony, which I find disappointing.
Rabbi Slifkin, your problem seems to be that you have no sense of proportion at all, and it alsoseems you don't understand the concept of exceptions which prove the rule. If I find you a prominent politician who says perhaps Gaza should be nuked, and I also find random people who say Gaza should be turned into a graveyard, would it be fair for me to paint your entire community as advocating a Gazan Holocaust?
As for being against specifying for soldiers, you are not clear what you mean, but you have overwhelming testimony here telling you that they have the soldiers in mind.
What do you mean "specifying davening for soldiers"? Does this mean reciting newly composed Tefillos (which is something Charedim are extremely wary of), or announcing before the Tehillim that the congregation should have the soldiers in mind? I am not aware of any Shul that specifically announces not to have the soldiers in mind; they recite Tehillim, and anyone who participates can choose to have in mind whatever they wish.
The argument is not on your facts rather your extrapolation of them. Your are painting the Chareidim as these Evil ungrateful beings that have no value for the lives of the IDF soldiers , the facts on the ground from many of the commentors on the blog from their own personal experiences says otherwise. Why are you refusing to acknowledge any experience but your own? (There is of course an extrem which you have meticulously cherry picked, but it as not as widespread as ypui have made it out to be)
Not to mention that in the comments to this post alone, we have one person saying that R. Schreiber's words are "maybe" "odd" but shouldn't be condemned, and another saying that secular Israelis who serve in the IDF are nevertheless "the real dogs" here.
I'm surprised you were impressed by Rabbis Slifkin's scholarship. It is usually just a fuzzled hodgepodge of misquotations and nonsense.
Look at his monograph on the kzayis for example, where he misquotes A Ravyah, then takes it completely out of context to support his predetermined position.
In the non-Chareidi Jewish world in England, there is not much else being discussed amongst the people. Discussed is probably the wrong word, as people are feeling extremely distressed. If you meet someone in a shop, that's the first thing they mention in conversation; everything else feels relatively insignificant and not an issue.
However, in the Chareidi world that's not the case.
Amazing. When anybody comments that the viewpoints your attaching to Chareidim are not even close to a majority your answer is "how do you know how many people hold the same view as you" but when you wish to farshmutz all large portions of Chareidim its suddenly "tens or hundreds of thousands". Based on what do you have those numbers???? I live in Beitar every shul is saying Tehillim. Lists of soliders names are going all over the place. People by the hundreds and thousands yes thousands are helping in many different ways. We get it you hate Chareidi society because of what you feel they did to you however the vast majority of Chareidim do not believe what you are attributing to them. Even the shuls that don't announce specifically that they're saying Tehillim for soliders ask anybody in the shul why there saying Tehillim and soliders will be right there with there kavanos
It's not contradictory. Neither Moish nor I are claiming that all charedim are like this. And Dov Kagan says that every shul is saying Tehillim, but this doesn't mean that they would be willing to specify that they are saying it for soldiers.
"Lists of soliders names are going all over the place."?? The feeling is that you are overgeneralizing and the reasons you are giving for this lack of specificity is just wrong
your first paragraph says it all. you think we have it out against you and need to redefine our positions as you point out different things -"Whenever I report the seemingly preposterous statements or actions of a charedi rabbinic figure, my opponents have to make a decision. Do they defend the statement/ actions? Do they claim that I have misinterpreted them? Or do they say that the rabbi is an aberration and not at all representative of others in the charedi community?"
let me break it you: we don't redefine our positions as they go. we have a very clear position. and when you - yes, you - make the idiotic move of pretending that these things that don't represent us are us, and we point out that you used a brush too wide, you blame us as if we're moving the goalpost.
you're using debate methods that apparently people are falling for and i'm calling you out on your shtusim
what you should've done was call our shreiber and say that this is something that should be spoken about, just as they speak out against other things, in which perhaps you'd be right (you're only wrong in this regard because of other reasons entirely). but instead you pretend as if this guy's position is mainstream and as if we are backing off post facto.
You're shul members or daveners are calling out R. Schreiber?! The Rov of your Shul is giving a Dvar Torah where directly or indirectly he's calling out R.bSchreibet?! I would be happy to hear that.
Then I strongly disagree with getzel as well. As for Schreiber being a talmid chacham, neveila tova heimenu. We usually say "asah teshuva balalyla" but here the "teshuva" was a ridiculous 'havhara' which indeed clarified they he has an position that is completely anti torah and that guy has some serious reckoning to do
although i'll admit, it could be in eretz yisroel the politics are much more extreme and there is a bigger number of people that may feel somewhat similar this kind of message. but that is not even close to the lakewood and american yeshivishe mentality at all. but then i'm not sure who you have a taina on for not speaking out
What's interesting about this post is not the frothing hatred and intellectual vacuity, those are par for the course. It's not the logical cul de sacs and non sequiturs ("you can't prove that there's not a lot of them so let's bash just in case"). or the inability to recognize distinctions (there's there's a large group that agree they don't deserve hakaras hatov because... some prefer to pray quietly to avoid glorifying a philosophy they consider anathema). Again, wouldn't have expected otherwise.
Na, what's most interesting is your use of the term "my opponents".
Has it occurred to you that maybe communities don't like to be publicly, repeatedly, and unfairly trashed and misrepresented, so some people take the time to come into this sludgepool to occasionally set the record straight?
Quite hilarious that you truly live your life believing yourself to be the hounded victim persecuted by your "opponents".
Get over it, man. I truly feel bad for the trauma you suffered two decades ago, and quite possibly you were unfairly treated then. But for at least the past decade, you've been the aggressor. People who respond to your vile diatribes and hate mongering are not your persecutors. They are simply injecting a bit of reason and context for the good of the many who fall for your pathetic garbage.
He did not actually say “charedim do not have any reason to feel… grateful to soldiers” (he did say that about feeling connected). What he said was just as bad but it explains the problem better. He accused his audience of never feeling gratitude anyway so why bother here (and pretending there is no reason to have gratitude when someone is paid/forced (and that all soldiers are little more than slaves), which no charedim actually believe, as evidenced by Moshe not doing the first 3 makos and another Gemara about being an “oreach tov”). It’s a simple problem of recognition. They have a global policy of refusing to recognize the legitimacy of anything other than their own religious approach. What’s most significant here is how foolish he sounded even to his own students because, as this question of gratitude for/davening for soldiers reveals, the Torah obviously does not allow for that sort of policy. You should not criticize them here for their views about soldiers, which they don’t really believe in other contexts - you should criticize them for refusing to recognize the rest of the world even when it results in such incredibly absurd positions.
The fact that Shreiber still holds a position of importance and was not condemned as narcissistic is a terrible indictment of some of the chareidi leadership in Eretz Yisroel. Full stop. What he said was horrifying.
That said, I don't think that your painting of all chareidim as agreeing with him is correct, nor wise.
At least where I live, the wildly modern commilunity of Lakewood, tehillim for the soldiers are going on every day, and the cholim lists are full of weird names. There are no tefillios for the information as a whole, but for soldiers, certainly. And there was outright disagreement with Shreibers words, even if some dare not condemn him to due to "kavoid HaTorah".
(As an aside, I am unsure why the lack of tefillah bothers you so much, considering that most rationalist orthodox Jews believe it doesn't actually affect anything metaphysically, but rather seves to develop self-improvement and introspection).
The reason people went crazy to ban Slifkin or Leibel is because they feel their statements will destroy the level of frumkait in the religious community. (whether that is right or wrong is a different story). Some guy saying don't daven for the IDF will not change that, so although it is horrifying, Chareidim don't get as paranoid.
I am watching a simmilar thing happen in Lakewood now. There are some trouble-makers campaigning for some chumra that has no backing by a single Rav in the entire USA. The Rabbanim are getting extremely annoyed and angry that this is happening, but nothing public came from them at all about it. But when someone finds a worm in some chickpea ten different signs go up that they are assur. That's just how it is.
The sheitel issue is a totally different issue than the one at hand,. It isn't a an issue of politics but rather the fact that we have no one who is capable of writing at eshuva on a complicated and controversial subject. The only one who wrote a teshuva was a local yungerman together with alocal rav and he never publicized it (especially after the Rosh Yeshiva they wrote it for didn't agree). I understand that RSM said he isn't stating any deiah on the matter.
If you have what to say on the matter I would be very interested. Do you have an email address that I can contact you with?
I am familiar with all of the above. My point was that certain things make public denunciations more than others. I initially didn't even mention which issue it was since I didn't want the main point lost.
I would be delighted to contact you but I don't want to put out my only email on publicly. Can you leave me yours? If you have the same issue I guess I'll make myself a new email or something.
If you mean against assuring, my point was there was no public letter about it.
If you mean against wearing it, when I say Rabbanim, I mean people who pasken halacha, not Roshei Yeshivos. I spoke to many of the people campaigning for this and they can't give me even one known name.
Some years ago, I lost faith with the senior Rabbonim in the Chareidi community. Unfortunately, too many of us have unrealistic faith in these Rabbis and they rely on this hype to maintain this image.
Speaking to them can be hugely disappointing at best, but if I didn't know better, could put me off Yiddishkeit.
Now, if you have a Tosfos that you don't understand, there are plenty of Chareidi Rabbonim who can genuinely help you.
The problem with the Chareidi approach is that learning has become an end in itself, rather than a means to an end.
The actual main reason to learn Torah is to learn what you are meant to do.
I could quote you Rishonim and Achronim on this subject, but RNS has already dealt with this disconnect between learning ("Lishmoh") and authentic Yiddishkeit in his Seforim.
IMO, there are perfectly legitimate reasons for a parent or teacher to discourage young men and women from joining the IDF. Is there anyone on the board here who can simply and proudly embrace the position of Rabbi Feldman? That is, we don't want to glorify the soldiers of the IDF and therefore we don't take on religious rituals and acts that specifically honor these soldiers because that sends the wrong message to our youth. Why is it so hard to own this position?
Seems like all of the complaints on the board avoid the core issue and instead focus on name calling, or "tone", or concoct some form of straw man argument.
But at this point, I'm not engaging in the question of who should serve in the IDF. I'm simply accepting that most Haredim don't want to serve and are even appalled by the suggestion. They have their values that they aspire to live by on an individual and generational basis, and ya, probably not in alignment with the Rambam. But again, I'm not denying that there are legitimate reasons to not serve in the IDF.
I'm just inviting the Haredim to own it. Seems like most of the Haredi commentators here are in a state of denial and that's a shame.
Why is it so hard for you to admit that the chareidim here know more about their communities than you do, and that Rabbi Slifkin's and his supporter's judgement is unfortunately clouded by hatred?
If somebody would slander you and your whole family, would you not think they hate you? Let's say somebody dedicated a blog to slandering you and your family? And then express annoyance that you are not "owning it" and you are "in a state of denial"? Have you ever tried to empathize with anybody else's feelings? I am asking sincerely.
Where exactly is your point of disagreement with me? I understand that I offended you by claiming that Haredim are in a state of denial, but your offense is not a counter argument.
>>Have you ever tried to empathize with anybody else's feelings?<<
Because that position is worlds apart from Rabbi Schreiber's position that we don't have hakaras hatov for the soldiers, or that they don't especially need prayers due to their dangerous situation.
A more general point: the real reason that a person normally does anything is because that is what they are conditioned to do. The reasons are things that our brains come up with afterwards. I have little doubt that if the Charedi leadership taught that praying directly for individual IDF soldiers was the Charedi contribution to the war effort that most Charedim would start doing that instead. I mention this in part to deal with the constant objections of "but Chareidim really do care and want to help". I have no doubt at all that the vast majority do in some way. But they go along with societal influences just like everyone else.
I am someone who generally agrees with the primary arguments you make but finds that (a) you have so much negativity that it’s “yatza scharo b’hefsedo” and (b) you lack a meaningful vision of any derech hatorah and therefore lead people in no good direction and are overall a bad influence when you could have been a good one. This is an example of both. Do you really need to hide behind “you against your opponents”? Is it not enough simply to recognize that many people are not aware of how many charedim in Israel won’t daven for soldiers and welcome that so many of your “opponents” agree with you about how wrong that is? Do you have to make this about how aggrieved you are and how everyone who pushed back on your last post must be an “opponent” sadly stooping to inappropriate tactics? I really wish you were better than this.
Can confirm that my brother would absolutely be horrified to daven for the IDF, or any part of the state.
The famous audio of one of the biggest American Hasidic Rebbes (rhymes with donov) a few weeks ago, at a yom tfilla, explained that we are not davening for any of the soldiers chas vshalom, only that the "situation" should resolve itself. The audio is published in many places, and I can send it to anyone that is interested.
There is no apathy to the plight of the soldiers. There are historical reasons for not including the blessing for the state of Israel, which is what the chareidim are really referring to.
It is patently false that chareidim do not pray for individual soldiers!!! There are entire groups set up for this exact purpose!
In chutz la'aretz there are many shuls that say tehilim for the soilders. That same rav I mentioned in my last comment makes a speacial misheberach for the chayalim every time something comes up. That being said, we can't ignore the direction the wind is blowing. Advising not to go to the rally and not davening for the soilders. They are one and the same. My question is how can we force change from within?
Disgusting, disgraceful. If I were a soldier I would take groups of soldiers to Chareidi shuls on Shabbos and commandeer the kriyas Hatorah when mishabeyrachs are made, or before Mussaf, and I would loudly, publicly, recite a prayer for the soldiers and demand that everybody answer Amein. And I would keep repeating until the kehilla responded!!! ( No continuation of services until met). Every Shabbos! To as many shuls as groups of soldiers would show up in. Everyone benefits: the soldiers go to shul, the kehilla gets the opportunity to do right; and HKB"H is happy!
After the war, I'll put out my proposal to get the Chareidim into the military.
As I wrote previously, to these people, Tefilla is not a conversation with Hashem, but a political statement.
But when they think Charedim refuse to say the Tefilla because they don't want to make a political statement, they suddenly lurch to the other side, "how dare you not daven for soldiers in danger?" The cognitive dissonance is striking.
But of course! God wouldn't want to be beseeched on behalf of his Jewish children?!!?? , especially for the warriors who protect all the "lomday Torah", and all the batei midrash, and all the batei Knesset, and all the yiddishe women from being raped, and all the Jewish klainer kinder from being burned alive or decapitated. (Trust me) the Israeli army serves God's and Torah's purposes. Just think, "pikuach nefesh". And of course we want God's input, the ultimate source of our protection. But out hishtadlus requires a strong, competent army. And we need Brach's and Tefillah and hakoros hatov for them, each and every one of them. It's their life and limb, and tircha , to protect you and all klall Yisrael. Show some gratitude and humanity: every shul should publicly pray for their protection,safety,success and we'll being. You'll sleep a lot better with God's Bracha!!
In Chutz l'aretz, at least in America, almost every single shul is saying tehillim. Most shuls said Yom Kippur Katan and some people even fasted. You're just a psychotic hater, so consumed by your hate for Chareidim that you don't realize how ridiculous you look. You're like a crazy man walking down the street naked thinking he's Mashiach and all onlookers are just laughing at him and feeling bad for him. Refuah Sheleima. I should start davening for you. Don't worry, I'll even mention you by name!
Although I don't condone the rudeness to Rabbi Slifkin, who I'm sure has only good intentions, you are absolutely correct he has no idea what he's talking about in this matter and is letting hatred, seeming very deep hatred, cloud his judgement. Look how he responds to Dov Kagan who is entrenched in an Israeli chareidi community by saying "Read the comment from Moish". Totally unacceptable. I am actually shocked, given Rabbi Slifkin's high level of scholarship and intellectual honesty elsewhere.
You're extrapolating from some charedi communities to others. You're ignoring the contrary testimony.
Rabbi Slifkin, nobody is extrapolating here except for you, and you are doing it in the wrong direction. All the critics in your comments are entrenched within chareidi communities, and are telling you how wrong you are. The "contrary testimony" is a guy saying "my brother wouldn't daven for the soldiers" whereas the critics both in chutz laaretz and Israel are reporting that all the chareidi shuls in their neighborhoods communities are saying Tehillim. There is no comparison. It's like if I would bring "contrary testimony" from anti Israel Jewish Tik Tok activists that Non Chareidim care nothing for the hostages or soldiers. Bottom line, it is you who is truly ignoring overwhelming contrary testimony, which I find disappointing.
I myself noted that the shuls are mostly saying Tehillim. The point is that many (not all, but many) are against specifying davening for soldiers.
Rabbi Slifkin, your problem seems to be that you have no sense of proportion at all, and it alsoseems you don't understand the concept of exceptions which prove the rule. If I find you a prominent politician who says perhaps Gaza should be nuked, and I also find random people who say Gaza should be turned into a graveyard, would it be fair for me to paint your entire community as advocating a Gazan Holocaust?
As for being against specifying for soldiers, you are not clear what you mean, but you have overwhelming testimony here telling you that they have the soldiers in mind.
What do you mean "specifying davening for soldiers"? Does this mean reciting newly composed Tefillos (which is something Charedim are extremely wary of), or announcing before the Tehillim that the congregation should have the soldiers in mind? I am not aware of any Shul that specifically announces not to have the soldiers in mind; they recite Tehillim, and anyone who participates can choose to have in mind whatever they wish.
The argument is not on your facts rather your extrapolation of them. Your are painting the Chareidim as these Evil ungrateful beings that have no value for the lives of the IDF soldiers , the facts on the ground from many of the commentors on the blog from their own personal experiences says otherwise. Why are you refusing to acknowledge any experience but your own? (There is of course an extrem which you have meticulously cherry picked, but it as not as widespread as ypui have made it out to be)
Not to mention that in the comments to this post alone, we have one person saying that R. Schreiber's words are "maybe" "odd" but shouldn't be condemned, and another saying that secular Israelis who serve in the IDF are nevertheless "the real dogs" here.
And the contrary testimony is not just Moish. In thos post alone, it's R. Schreiber and the Bobov rebbe and a random collector.
"I am actually shocked, given Rabbi Slifkin's high level of scholarship and intellectual honesty elsewhere."
Now THAT'S a funny joke!
I'm surprised you were impressed by Rabbis Slifkin's scholarship. It is usually just a fuzzled hodgepodge of misquotations and nonsense.
Look at his monograph on the kzayis for example, where he misquotes A Ravyah, then takes it completely out of context to support his predetermined position.
In the non-Chareidi Jewish world in England, there is not much else being discussed amongst the people. Discussed is probably the wrong word, as people are feeling extremely distressed. If you meet someone in a shop, that's the first thing they mention in conversation; everything else feels relatively insignificant and not an issue.
However, in the Chareidi world that's not the case.
Why weren't you banned yet?
Because it's still the middle of the night in Israel.
Amazing. When anybody comments that the viewpoints your attaching to Chareidim are not even close to a majority your answer is "how do you know how many people hold the same view as you" but when you wish to farshmutz all large portions of Chareidim its suddenly "tens or hundreds of thousands". Based on what do you have those numbers???? I live in Beitar every shul is saying Tehillim. Lists of soliders names are going all over the place. People by the hundreds and thousands yes thousands are helping in many different ways. We get it you hate Chareidi society because of what you feel they did to you however the vast majority of Chareidim do not believe what you are attributing to them. Even the shuls that don't announce specifically that they're saying Tehillim for soliders ask anybody in the shul why there saying Tehillim and soliders will be right there with there kavanos
So you're saying is that despite the fact what a Chareidi Talmud Chacham and leader says he is being ignored by his community.
Yes, he got a ton of pushback in that very shiur.
Read the comment from Moish below.
Why is moishs testimony more valuable than this?
It's not contradictory. Neither Moish nor I are claiming that all charedim are like this. And Dov Kagan says that every shul is saying Tehillim, but this doesn't mean that they would be willing to specify that they are saying it for soldiers.
"Lists of soliders names are going all over the place."?? The feeling is that you are overgeneralizing and the reasons you are giving for this lack of specificity is just wrong
When do you post from your official account, and when do you use this troll account?
When it is an official post there is a red "author" label
But how do I have two logins? I don't understand it. Is it because I have two email addresses?
Yes
your first paragraph says it all. you think we have it out against you and need to redefine our positions as you point out different things -"Whenever I report the seemingly preposterous statements or actions of a charedi rabbinic figure, my opponents have to make a decision. Do they defend the statement/ actions? Do they claim that I have misinterpreted them? Or do they say that the rabbi is an aberration and not at all representative of others in the charedi community?"
let me break it you: we don't redefine our positions as they go. we have a very clear position. and when you - yes, you - make the idiotic move of pretending that these things that don't represent us are us, and we point out that you used a brush too wide, you blame us as if we're moving the goalpost.
you're using debate methods that apparently people are falling for and i'm calling you out on your shtusim
what you should've done was call our shreiber and say that this is something that should be spoken about, just as they speak out against other things, in which perhaps you'd be right (you're only wrong in this regard because of other reasons entirely). but instead you pretend as if this guy's position is mainstream and as if we are backing off post facto.
So you're calling out Rabbi Shreiber?!
You're shul members or daveners are calling out R. Schreiber?! The Rov of your Shul is giving a Dvar Torah where directly or indirectly he's calling out R.bSchreibet?! I would be happy to hear that.
Of course I'm calling him out! What an insensitive ingrate! See my comments on the previous post, what are you mesupak about?
Careful. Getzel believes that you are absolutely wrong to call him out.
Then I strongly disagree with getzel as well. As for Schreiber being a talmid chacham, neveila tova heimenu. We usually say "asah teshuva balalyla" but here the "teshuva" was a ridiculous 'havhara' which indeed clarified they he has an position that is completely anti torah and that guy has some serious reckoning to do
I dont think hes well known
although i'll admit, it could be in eretz yisroel the politics are much more extreme and there is a bigger number of people that may feel somewhat similar this kind of message. but that is not even close to the lakewood and american yeshivishe mentality at all. but then i'm not sure who you have a taina on for not speaking out
What's interesting about this post is not the frothing hatred and intellectual vacuity, those are par for the course. It's not the logical cul de sacs and non sequiturs ("you can't prove that there's not a lot of them so let's bash just in case"). or the inability to recognize distinctions (there's there's a large group that agree they don't deserve hakaras hatov because... some prefer to pray quietly to avoid glorifying a philosophy they consider anathema). Again, wouldn't have expected otherwise.
Na, what's most interesting is your use of the term "my opponents".
Has it occurred to you that maybe communities don't like to be publicly, repeatedly, and unfairly trashed and misrepresented, so some people take the time to come into this sludgepool to occasionally set the record straight?
Quite hilarious that you truly live your life believing yourself to be the hounded victim persecuted by your "opponents".
Get over it, man. I truly feel bad for the trauma you suffered two decades ago, and quite possibly you were unfairly treated then. But for at least the past decade, you've been the aggressor. People who respond to your vile diatribes and hate mongering are not your persecutors. They are simply injecting a bit of reason and context for the good of the many who fall for your pathetic garbage.
Focus on the שיעור by Rav Asher Weiss on פדיון שבויים; you might learn something today.
https://youtu.be/vpzAJikIiAg
He did not actually say “charedim do not have any reason to feel… grateful to soldiers” (he did say that about feeling connected). What he said was just as bad but it explains the problem better. He accused his audience of never feeling gratitude anyway so why bother here (and pretending there is no reason to have gratitude when someone is paid/forced (and that all soldiers are little more than slaves), which no charedim actually believe, as evidenced by Moshe not doing the first 3 makos and another Gemara about being an “oreach tov”). It’s a simple problem of recognition. They have a global policy of refusing to recognize the legitimacy of anything other than their own religious approach. What’s most significant here is how foolish he sounded even to his own students because, as this question of gratitude for/davening for soldiers reveals, the Torah obviously does not allow for that sort of policy. You should not criticize them here for their views about soldiers, which they don’t really believe in other contexts - you should criticize them for refusing to recognize the rest of the world even when it results in such incredibly absurd positions.
I condemn people not davening for soldiers.
Interesting that a rationalist can suddenly belive that davening can change things...
The fact that Shreiber still holds a position of importance and was not condemned as narcissistic is a terrible indictment of some of the chareidi leadership in Eretz Yisroel. Full stop. What he said was horrifying.
That said, I don't think that your painting of all chareidim as agreeing with him is correct, nor wise.
At least where I live, the wildly modern commilunity of Lakewood, tehillim for the soldiers are going on every day, and the cholim lists are full of weird names. There are no tefillios for the information as a whole, but for soldiers, certainly. And there was outright disagreement with Shreibers words, even if some dare not condemn him to due to "kavoid HaTorah".
(As an aside, I am unsure why the lack of tefillah bothers you so much, considering that most rationalist orthodox Jews believe it doesn't actually affect anything metaphysically, but rather seves to develop self-improvement and introspection).
The reason people went crazy to ban Slifkin or Leibel is because they feel their statements will destroy the level of frumkait in the religious community. (whether that is right or wrong is a different story). Some guy saying don't daven for the IDF will not change that, so although it is horrifying, Chareidim don't get as paranoid.
I am watching a simmilar thing happen in Lakewood now. There are some trouble-makers campaigning for some chumra that has no backing by a single Rav in the entire USA. The Rabbanim are getting extremely annoyed and angry that this is happening, but nothing public came from them at all about it. But when someone finds a worm in some chickpea ten different signs go up that they are assur. That's just how it is.
The sheitel issue is a totally different issue than the one at hand,. It isn't a an issue of politics but rather the fact that we have no one who is capable of writing at eshuva on a complicated and controversial subject. The only one who wrote a teshuva was a local yungerman together with alocal rav and he never publicized it (especially after the Rosh Yeshiva they wrote it for didn't agree). I understand that RSM said he isn't stating any deiah on the matter.
If you have what to say on the matter I would be very interested. Do you have an email address that I can contact you with?
I am familiar with all of the above. My point was that certain things make public denunciations more than others. I initially didn't even mention which issue it was since I didn't want the main point lost.
I would be delighted to contact you but I don't want to put out my only email on publicly. Can you leave me yours? If you have the same issue I guess I'll make myself a new email or something.
Out of curiosity, what is this chumra?
Indian hair sheitels.
That's right.
Plenty of Rabbanim in the USA are against it.
If you mean against assuring, my point was there was no public letter about it.
If you mean against wearing it, when I say Rabbanim, I mean people who pasken halacha, not Roshei Yeshivos. I spoke to many of the people campaigning for this and they can't give me even one known name.
I didn't paint all charedim as agreeing with him. I specifically said otherwise.
The title says "He's not an aberration" so its clearly implied.
Some years ago, I lost faith with the senior Rabbonim in the Chareidi community. Unfortunately, too many of us have unrealistic faith in these Rabbis and they rely on this hype to maintain this image.
Speaking to them can be hugely disappointing at best, but if I didn't know better, could put me off Yiddishkeit.
Now, if you have a Tosfos that you don't understand, there are plenty of Chareidi Rabbonim who can genuinely help you.
The problem with the Chareidi approach is that learning has become an end in itself, rather than a means to an end.
The actual main reason to learn Torah is to learn what you are meant to do.
I could quote you Rishonim and Achronim on this subject, but RNS has already dealt with this disconnect between learning ("Lishmoh") and authentic Yiddishkeit in his Seforim.
IMO, there are perfectly legitimate reasons for a parent or teacher to discourage young men and women from joining the IDF. Is there anyone on the board here who can simply and proudly embrace the position of Rabbi Feldman? That is, we don't want to glorify the soldiers of the IDF and therefore we don't take on religious rituals and acts that specifically honor these soldiers because that sends the wrong message to our youth. Why is it so hard to own this position?
Seems like all of the complaints on the board avoid the core issue and instead focus on name calling, or "tone", or concoct some form of straw man argument.
I suggest you learn הלכות מלכים ומלחמות in the רמב"ם.
I absolutely should!
But at this point, I'm not engaging in the question of who should serve in the IDF. I'm simply accepting that most Haredim don't want to serve and are even appalled by the suggestion. They have their values that they aspire to live by on an individual and generational basis, and ya, probably not in alignment with the Rambam. But again, I'm not denying that there are legitimate reasons to not serve in the IDF.
I'm just inviting the Haredim to own it. Seems like most of the Haredi commentators here are in a state of denial and that's a shame.
Why is it so hard for you to admit that the chareidim here know more about their communities than you do, and that Rabbi Slifkin's and his supporter's judgement is unfortunately clouded by hatred?
You think that I hate Haredim? Why?
If somebody would slander you and your whole family, would you not think they hate you? Let's say somebody dedicated a blog to slandering you and your family? And then express annoyance that you are not "owning it" and you are "in a state of denial"? Have you ever tried to empathize with anybody else's feelings? I am asking sincerely.
Haredim are opposed to army service.
They have legitimate reasons for this position.
Where exactly is your point of disagreement with me? I understand that I offended you by claiming that Haredim are in a state of denial, but your offense is not a counter argument.
>>Have you ever tried to empathize with anybody else's feelings?<<
Sure, generally in person with eye contact.
Because that position is worlds apart from Rabbi Schreiber's position that we don't have hakaras hatov for the soldiers, or that they don't especially need prayers due to their dangerous situation.
A more general point: the real reason that a person normally does anything is because that is what they are conditioned to do. The reasons are things that our brains come up with afterwards. I have little doubt that if the Charedi leadership taught that praying directly for individual IDF soldiers was the Charedi contribution to the war effort that most Charedim would start doing that instead. I mention this in part to deal with the constant objections of "but Chareidim really do care and want to help". I have no doubt at all that the vast majority do in some way. But they go along with societal influences just like everyone else.
I am someone who generally agrees with the primary arguments you make but finds that (a) you have so much negativity that it’s “yatza scharo b’hefsedo” and (b) you lack a meaningful vision of any derech hatorah and therefore lead people in no good direction and are overall a bad influence when you could have been a good one. This is an example of both. Do you really need to hide behind “you against your opponents”? Is it not enough simply to recognize that many people are not aware of how many charedim in Israel won’t daven for soldiers and welcome that so many of your “opponents” agree with you about how wrong that is? Do you have to make this about how aggrieved you are and how everyone who pushed back on your last post must be an “opponent” sadly stooping to inappropriate tactics? I really wish you were better than this.
Can confirm that my brother would absolutely be horrified to daven for the IDF, or any part of the state.
The famous audio of one of the biggest American Hasidic Rebbes (rhymes with donov) a few weeks ago, at a yom tfilla, explained that we are not davening for any of the soldiers chas vshalom, only that the "situation" should resolve itself. The audio is published in many places, and I can send it to anyone that is interested.
Please send it to me.
Is that you Natan? From different account?
Yes for some reason i have two logins. I don't understand why.
Here's a public link for anyone interested.
https://twitter.com/hasidic_1/status/1718658860477469038?t=K0buAwaMNF5rQCxi30oMuQ&s=19
Which charedi sect is your brother a part of?
US chassidic, not Satmar
There is no apathy to the plight of the soldiers. There are historical reasons for not including the blessing for the state of Israel, which is what the chareidim are really referring to.
It is patently false that chareidim do not pray for individual soldiers!!! There are entire groups set up for this exact purpose!
It is patently false to claim that I said thar no charedim pray for individual soldiers.
In chutz la'aretz there are many shuls that say tehilim for the soilders. That same rav I mentioned in my last comment makes a speacial misheberach for the chayalim every time something comes up. That being said, we can't ignore the direction the wind is blowing. Advising not to go to the rally and not davening for the soilders. They are one and the same. My question is how can we force change from within?
It seems as society opens up more and more or they're losing more and more of their flock they have to become even more extreme
are they ? I thought they are projected to be half the people here by 2050 and the majority of Jews of any persuasion by some time not that far off.
The projections are a lot more modest than that. Still worrisome, but not that much.
good good. They should increase and multiply and enter the workforce and serve in some needed capacity.
Disgusting, disgraceful. If I were a soldier I would take groups of soldiers to Chareidi shuls on Shabbos and commandeer the kriyas Hatorah when mishabeyrachs are made, or before Mussaf, and I would loudly, publicly, recite a prayer for the soldiers and demand that everybody answer Amein. And I would keep repeating until the kehilla responded!!! ( No continuation of services until met). Every Shabbos! To as many shuls as groups of soldiers would show up in. Everyone benefits: the soldiers go to shul, the kehilla gets the opportunity to do right; and HKB"H is happy!
After the war, I'll put out my proposal to get the Chareidim into the military.
I assume you would go to secular kibutzim as well and force them to pray for you.
You are a true talmid of Gandhi.
And your method is just the way to get things done.
/s
Yes this is a reasonable sane non violent response to people who disagree with you!
As I wrote previously, to these people, Tefilla is not a conversation with Hashem, but a political statement.
But when they think Charedim refuse to say the Tefilla because they don't want to make a political statement, they suddenly lurch to the other side, "how dare you not daven for soldiers in danger?" The cognitive dissonance is striking.
This apathy for the plight of the soldiers is a Chillul HaShem.
So you believe that no matter what a Talmid Chacham says, it cannot be condemned?
Unfortunately, some Rabbis embarrass themselves by what they say to their community.
Other Rabbis embarrass themselves by their silence.
I don't think people here who criticise them can be responsible for these Rabbis' behavior.
You should learn הלכות מלכים ומלחמות in the רמב"ם.
Let's see if that changes your outlook.
Or you can stay ignorant, but then don't expect people to take what you say seriously.
But of course! God wouldn't want to be beseeched on behalf of his Jewish children?!!?? , especially for the warriors who protect all the "lomday Torah", and all the batei midrash, and all the batei Knesset, and all the yiddishe women from being raped, and all the Jewish klainer kinder from being burned alive or decapitated. (Trust me) the Israeli army serves God's and Torah's purposes. Just think, "pikuach nefesh". And of course we want God's input, the ultimate source of our protection. But out hishtadlus requires a strong, competent army. And we need Brach's and Tefillah and hakoros hatov for them, each and every one of them. It's their life and limb, and tircha , to protect you and all klall Yisrael. Show some gratitude and humanity: every shul should publicly pray for their protection,safety,success and we'll being. You'll sleep a lot better with God's Bracha!!