It's amazing. Dozens and dozens and dozens of comments here from Charedi apologists. Yet not one of them actually addresses the point of the post. Some of them don't even seem to have the reading comprehension to understand it.
To summarize: IF, as charedim claim, their constant Torah learning is necessary to protect Israel (and that's why Gedolim constantly warn about a weakening in Torah study during Bein HaZmanim being harmful for Israel), then why do they have Bein HaZmanim at all, especially during such a dangerous time?! Instead, they should take staggered breaks, just like the army does, rather than everyone taking a break (of a month!) at the same time.
But the bigger question that I have right now is this one: How come all the charedi commentators here either did not understand that this was the point of the post, or chose not to respond to it and to instead distract with unrelated issues?
Presumably, the answer is that they do not have an answer to this post.
I got the same from the chanichei yeshivos in my neighborhood. The extra times were a 9:00 and 9:30 shacharis!
I was so bothered by it that I wrote the gabbai yesterday (copied below). I've maintained a good relationship with him and to his credit, he wrote a lengthy reply to me which helped, though suffice it to say I didn't love it.
Dear Rabbi ---,
With all due respect, this title is quite distasteful. If the bochurim are the giborei chayil protecting Klal Yisrael, why are they returning home? Shouldn't the zeman be extended until next Friday?
And if they're learning is so important b/c Torah is מגנא ומצלא, why add 9:00 and 9:30 minyanim? Surely giborei chayil would start davening and learning much earlier than that?
I know many people who have lost a relative during this war, including from this neighborhood, and I think there could be much more sensitivity in how bein hazmanim is framed (though again, I fail to understand why the zeman is not being extended).
Why would we Daven for the " הגיבורי חיל שחזרו הביתה" - I thought that they were davening for us or our children currently in the army?
What exactly are we supposed to pray for? That they get the correct pshat when learning, otherwise their learning will be ineffective? That they manage to get up on time for minyan? That they are not distracted by the evils in their neighborhoods?
I'm not trying to be funny - I honestly have no idea what we should include in our Tfillot.
When I daven for soldiers and hostages, I know the physical and spiritual dangers that they are in.
What specific tfillot should I add or concentrate on for the wellbeing of the valiant heroes who have left the Yeshivot so that they can relax in their parent's home?
Once an avreich boasted to me that 'unlike those ba'al habattim who take time off', they learn solidly through the Western Christmas holiday period and public holidays.
I said, ok, let's count your vacation days.
4.5 weeks nissan
around 3 weeks tishri
around 3 weeks av
So that is around 10 to 11 weeks paid vacation. 20% of the year. Without mentioning the days off when the wife is sick and needs help with the kids, paternity, early chanukoh closing, family weddings and simchos, short Fridays, need to leave before shabbos rosh chodesh nissan and fly home type days, and similar.
Compare that to the amount of paid vacation a typical ba'al habos gets. I can't just not show up at work when the wife is sick to look after the kids, or disappear for a day when my second cousin once removed gets married in a town a few hundred miles away.
I'm an orthodox Jew in my 40s who learnt about 10y ago to think for myself and use my own brain.
But I grew up in the. Charedi yeshiva system and recall that while you're inside it, and being spammed repeatedly by the hanhola of the yeshiva and all the charedi magazines, you genuinely believe you are right, and all the chilonim and DL are wrong. Even though it clearly makes zero sense
The point was made that learning is hard and it can be if one takes it seriously. And learning is enjoyable and creates self satisfaction and most have been lead to believe that they are doing Hashem's wishes. I have been with many serious athletes who take their sport seriously (cycling, skiing, running etc) The training is also hard but it is also enjoyable, addicting, and instills a feeling of accomplishment. These are people who are not going to be professionals in their sports but give it their all, so to speak. The point of R Slifkin is that kollel people do not produce any services or anything tangible. They do not publish, do not lead shiuring for the less religious, do not do outreach, do not do gmelute hasidim to the public. To this end their efforts are selfish. They fill their cerebral tank with lots of Torah but what do they give back? Is it our lot just to learn and not improve the world? Is the midrash (literally and figuratively) the ekar or the maaseh?
Worth noting that in DL yeshivas the bein hazmanim is much shorter. Just a couple days before and after Pesach in my experience. Which makes sense as for those students learning is something they want to do, not an excuse to avoid doing other things (army/work).
Yup. I received an email from a Haredi shul with the following subject line:
הוספות בזמני התפילה בשביל הגיבורי חיל שחזרו הביתה להגין על השכונה בלימוד תורתם.
I understand several of my neighbors who have, as of sometime after 10/7, ceased walking into the premises of Haredi institutions or participating in their events.
What really bothers me are the charedim who think that learning a Rav Chaim is a much greater intellectual challenge then anything in the world. They’ve never learned advanced mathematics, physics, computer science etc. to compare. I have and while lomdus is on a high intellectual level is it higher then advanced mathematics, or cryptography, game theory, etc.? I don’t think so. Many of the things that I learned in a computer science masters program were harder than understanding a sugya with all the lomdus.
I have no doubt that the soldier from the war is currently writing a 'guest post' explaining why the vast majoriry of DL/RZ people have no issues with the hypocry involved in having bein hazmanim in the middle of a war. Only a few chareidi haters have an issue.
When I was in kollel and the yeshiva we despised the bein hazmanim and learned full time and my wife worked regular hours. I've never been on a being azmanim trip or a vacation, but granted we were fanatical.
Slifkin after one good and one ok post is back to the insanity of insasantly bashing the charedim. Incidentally, many of my secular and MO relatives have flown abroad for vacations, 2 got פרופיל 21 and are chilling. Life isn't black and white and takes place in the gray area.
It wasn’t the military’s iron dome rockets that protected Israel, it was the chareidi Torah thunderbolts that destroyed all those Iranian drones.
As soon as I realised that Jerusalem was under attack I immediately stopped eliminating every micro-gram of chametz in my home and instantly began intoning
שור שנגח את הפרה, שור שנגח את הפרה,.
And you know what? Hashem instantly became aware that Israel was under attack and seized on my ruminations to protect everyone.
I recently went on a work trip to China. The plane to Thailand was packed to the gills with Israelis of all ages going on vacation. However Bein Hazmanim is really especially terrible during war time. By the way serious bochrim and avreichim learn the majority of their vacation anyway. So again this is just another Chareidi bashing rage post. (I will admit I like the idea of staggered vacations alot and hope it will be used)
It's amazing. Dozens and dozens and dozens of comments here from Charedi apologists. Yet not one of them actually addresses the point of the post. Some of them don't even seem to have the reading comprehension to understand it.
To summarize: IF, as charedim claim, their constant Torah learning is necessary to protect Israel (and that's why Gedolim constantly warn about a weakening in Torah study during Bein HaZmanim being harmful for Israel), then why do they have Bein HaZmanim at all, especially during such a dangerous time?! Instead, they should take staggered breaks, just like the army does, rather than everyone taking a break (of a month!) at the same time.
But the bigger question that I have right now is this one: How come all the charedi commentators here either did not understand that this was the point of the post, or chose not to respond to it and to instead distract with unrelated issues?
Presumably, the answer is that they do not have an answer to this post.
More like Iran+Hamas+Hezbolla=It's the Chareidim!
#someoneneeedstoseeatherapist
I got the same from the chanichei yeshivos in my neighborhood. The extra times were a 9:00 and 9:30 shacharis!
I was so bothered by it that I wrote the gabbai yesterday (copied below). I've maintained a good relationship with him and to his credit, he wrote a lengthy reply to me which helped, though suffice it to say I didn't love it.
Dear Rabbi ---,
With all due respect, this title is quite distasteful. If the bochurim are the giborei chayil protecting Klal Yisrael, why are they returning home? Shouldn't the zeman be extended until next Friday?
And if they're learning is so important b/c Torah is מגנא ומצלא, why add 9:00 and 9:30 minyanim? Surely giborei chayil would start davening and learning much earlier than that?
I know many people who have lost a relative during this war, including from this neighborhood, and I think there could be much more sensitivity in how bein hazmanim is framed (though again, I fail to understand why the zeman is not being extended).
Written with pain,
----
I don't understand the line ion the Torah.
Why would we Daven for the " הגיבורי חיל שחזרו הביתה" - I thought that they were davening for us or our children currently in the army?
What exactly are we supposed to pray for? That they get the correct pshat when learning, otherwise their learning will be ineffective? That they manage to get up on time for minyan? That they are not distracted by the evils in their neighborhoods?
I'm not trying to be funny - I honestly have no idea what we should include in our Tfillot.
When I daven for soldiers and hostages, I know the physical and spiritual dangers that they are in.
What specific tfillot should I add or concentrate on for the wellbeing of the valiant heroes who have left the Yeshivot so that they can relax in their parent's home?
I was predicting this....
Once an avreich boasted to me that 'unlike those ba'al habattim who take time off', they learn solidly through the Western Christmas holiday period and public holidays.
I said, ok, let's count your vacation days.
4.5 weeks nissan
around 3 weeks tishri
around 3 weeks av
So that is around 10 to 11 weeks paid vacation. 20% of the year. Without mentioning the days off when the wife is sick and needs help with the kids, paternity, early chanukoh closing, family weddings and simchos, short Fridays, need to leave before shabbos rosh chodesh nissan and fly home type days, and similar.
Compare that to the amount of paid vacation a typical ba'al habos gets. I can't just not show up at work when the wife is sick to look after the kids, or disappear for a day when my second cousin once removed gets married in a town a few hundred miles away.
He got the point.
The myopia is staggering.
I'm an orthodox Jew in my 40s who learnt about 10y ago to think for myself and use my own brain.
But I grew up in the. Charedi yeshiva system and recall that while you're inside it, and being spammed repeatedly by the hanhola of the yeshiva and all the charedi magazines, you genuinely believe you are right, and all the chilonim and DL are wrong. Even though it clearly makes zero sense
"But all of them have easier days,"
Easier than what? Their usual?
Anyway, not to worry: The Mir rosh yeshiva extended the zman to...today.
https://vinnews.com/2024/04/08/mir-rosh-yeshiva-calls-to-extend-winter-zman-until-3rd-of-nissan/
The point was made that learning is hard and it can be if one takes it seriously. And learning is enjoyable and creates self satisfaction and most have been lead to believe that they are doing Hashem's wishes. I have been with many serious athletes who take their sport seriously (cycling, skiing, running etc) The training is also hard but it is also enjoyable, addicting, and instills a feeling of accomplishment. These are people who are not going to be professionals in their sports but give it their all, so to speak. The point of R Slifkin is that kollel people do not produce any services or anything tangible. They do not publish, do not lead shiuring for the less religious, do not do outreach, do not do gmelute hasidim to the public. To this end their efforts are selfish. They fill their cerebral tank with lots of Torah but what do they give back? Is it our lot just to learn and not improve the world? Is the midrash (literally and figuratively) the ekar or the maaseh?
Worth noting that in DL yeshivas the bein hazmanim is much shorter. Just a couple days before and after Pesach in my experience. Which makes sense as for those students learning is something they want to do, not an excuse to avoid doing other things (army/work).
Yup. I received an email from a Haredi shul with the following subject line:
הוספות בזמני התפילה בשביל הגיבורי חיל שחזרו הביתה להגין על השכונה בלימוד תורתם.
I understand several of my neighbors who have, as of sometime after 10/7, ceased walking into the premises of Haredi institutions or participating in their events.
What really bothers me are the charedim who think that learning a Rav Chaim is a much greater intellectual challenge then anything in the world. They’ve never learned advanced mathematics, physics, computer science etc. to compare. I have and while lomdus is on a high intellectual level is it higher then advanced mathematics, or cryptography, game theory, etc.? I don’t think so. Many of the things that I learned in a computer science masters program were harder than understanding a sugya with all the lomdus.
I have no doubt that the soldier from the war is currently writing a 'guest post' explaining why the vast majoriry of DL/RZ people have no issues with the hypocry involved in having bein hazmanim in the middle of a war. Only a few chareidi haters have an issue.
When I was in kollel and the yeshiva we despised the bein hazmanim and learned full time and my wife worked regular hours. I've never been on a being azmanim trip or a vacation, but granted we were fanatical.
Slifkin after one good and one ok post is back to the insanity of insasantly bashing the charedim. Incidentally, many of my secular and MO relatives have flown abroad for vacations, 2 got פרופיל 21 and are chilling. Life isn't black and white and takes place in the gray area.
Did you see that?
It wasn’t the military’s iron dome rockets that protected Israel, it was the chareidi Torah thunderbolts that destroyed all those Iranian drones.
As soon as I realised that Jerusalem was under attack I immediately stopped eliminating every micro-gram of chametz in my home and instantly began intoning
שור שנגח את הפרה, שור שנגח את הפרה,.
And you know what? Hashem instantly became aware that Israel was under attack and seized on my ruminations to protect everyone.
I recently went on a work trip to China. The plane to Thailand was packed to the gills with Israelis of all ages going on vacation. However Bein Hazmanim is really especially terrible during war time. By the way serious bochrim and avreichim learn the majority of their vacation anyway. So again this is just another Chareidi bashing rage post. (I will admit I like the idea of staggered vacations alot and hope it will be used)
One issue is, that Israel sits squarely on top of Eretz Yisrael.
If only the people who run Israel would run it how Eretz Yisrael should be run.
If only they would respect and consult those who know how, instead of fomenting hate, divisiveness and disgust for Hashem's servants.
Who knows if this war would have started?
The psychotic allowance and accounting of collateral damage would bow to the Torah's respect for every life.
Who knows if this infiltration would have been allowed to take place. Who knows if the army would have different aims and a lot more soldiers?
Isn't Shalom the greatest shield?
Wouldn't we probably be granted much more success from Hashem "Ish Milchama"?