It's amazing. Dozens and dozens and dozens of comments here from Charedi apologists. Yet not one of them actually addresses the point of the post. Some of them don't even seem to have the reading comprehension to understand it.
To summarize: IF, as charedim claim, their constant Torah learning is necessary to protect Israel (and that's why Gedolim constantly warn about a weakening in Torah study during Bein HaZmanim being harmful for Israel), then why do they have Bein HaZmanim at all, especially during such a dangerous time?! Instead, they should take staggered breaks, just like the army does, rather than everyone taking a break (of a month!) at the same time.
But the bigger question that I have right now is this one: How come all the charedi commentators here either did not understand that this was the point of the post, or chose not to respond to it and to instead distract with unrelated issues?
Presumably, the answer is that they do not have an answer to this post.
The answer to your question is because it is very obvious that the goal of this post is not an honest effort to effect change in bein hazmanim in order to increase Torah learning for the good of Israel. It is simply another attack on charedim. How do I know this? Because even if bein hazmanim was canceled this year and even if yeshivah students learned 24/7 and ate only bread and water and slept on the floor and relocated to learn on the front - and whatever other nonsense you and your groupies have suggested over the past six months - Even if they did all of that - guess what - YOU WOULD NOT BE SATISFIED! You would probably not be satisfied even if all charedim were drafted at the same rate as non-charedim if they and their communities didn't actually suffer casualties at the same rate as non-charedim. You don't even believe that Torah protects the same way charedim believe it so why would you be advocating for canceling bein hazmanim.
To criticize someone for something they're doing wrong, when a change in that behavior would not change your opinion of them whatsoever, is not constructive criticism - it's just hate.
So no, the "charedi apologists" do not see "the point of the post" as a call to cancel bein hazmanim, because it is not the point of the post. The point of the post is the usual point - bash charedim.
Obviously my point is not to change bein hazmanim - I don't believe that their Torah has any protective power anyway! The point is to prove that THEY don't believe that Torah has crucial protective power.
And if they changed bein hazmanim that would prove to you that they believe it? How would that make you any happier? would you attack them any less? We all know the answer..
I'll be honest, I agree to main point of the post. I even stated that below. What I commented on is that coming from you it's just an attack, not something to engage with.
Are you suggesting that mitzvos now protects, just like 'torah learning'? In that case the general exeamption from the draft can be ended because chareidim will be fullfilling the mitzvah of preventing loss of life. As well as many others.
Love the insults at the end. Insults are the refuge of the insecure, by the way.
Great, so mitzvot protect just as well as Torah. Sounds like the Hesder recipe is correct. Physical AND spiritual protection. (AND as much Torah as they can learn)
Please don't insult Hesder Students by claiming that "some of them are as religious as chareidim" - the vast majority of them are far more "religious" than most Haredim, Hesder students are absolutely immersed in Talmud Torah, not because their society insists on it, and not for a Shidduch or any other reason, but for a 100% commitment to Torah.
They are also 100% committed to mitzvot, including the Mitzvah of defending the land - mitzvot which are completely ignored by the Haredi community.
It is possible that a percentage of the Haredi community are almost as religious as the Hesder community, and Kol Hakavod to them.
I got the same from the chanichei yeshivos in my neighborhood. The extra times were a 9:00 and 9:30 shacharis!
I was so bothered by it that I wrote the gabbai yesterday (copied below). I've maintained a good relationship with him and to his credit, he wrote a lengthy reply to me which helped, though suffice it to say I didn't love it.
Dear Rabbi ---,
With all due respect, this title is quite distasteful. If the bochurim are the giborei chayil protecting Klal Yisrael, why are they returning home? Shouldn't the zeman be extended until next Friday?
And if they're learning is so important b/c Torah is מגנא ומצלא, why add 9:00 and 9:30 minyanim? Surely giborei chayil would start davening and learning much earlier than that?
I know many people who have lost a relative during this war, including from this neighborhood, and I think there could be much more sensitivity in how bein hazmanim is framed (though again, I fail to understand why the zeman is not being extended).
שבוע שעבר היתה הועידה של איחוד בני הישיבות השנתית.
הרבה גדולי ישראל הגיעו. הרב דון סגל, הרב משה הלל הירש, הרב דוד כהן-חברון, הרב חיים פרץ ברמן, הרב גלאי וכו' וכו'.
אני חושב שכולם דיברו על תורה מגנא ומצלא. יותר חשוב שבחורים ילמדו להרבות זכוית לעם ישראל. צריכים לוחמים צריכים לימוד התורה.
הבחורים למדו שישה חודשים בלי חופש. ללמוד יומם ולילה לא קל אבל הם למדו ובזכות הלימוד של כלל ישראל היו הרבה ניסים.
הרב משה הלל הירש שליט"א בהתחלה סבר שהבחורים יאריכו הזמן אבל שארי ראשי הישיבות אמרו שהבחורים חייבים לצאת לחופש כדי שיוכלו לבנות כוחות לזמן קיץ.
צריכים מניינים בשעה 9:00 ו 9:30 בחורים לומדים מאוחר בלילה צריכים לנוח.
הרבנים שדיברו בועיד אמרו שהשנה לא לעשות טיולים. אנחנו בשעת חירום. לנוח כן . לטייל רק במקום שלא ציבורי. וכל בחור צריך ללמוד ולהמשיך לגדול, ולא לאבד מה שהשיג עד עכשיו.
Why would we Daven for the " הגיבורי חיל שחזרו הביתה" - I thought that they were davening for us or our children currently in the army?
What exactly are we supposed to pray for? That they get the correct pshat when learning, otherwise their learning will be ineffective? That they manage to get up on time for minyan? That they are not distracted by the evils in their neighborhoods?
I'm not trying to be funny - I honestly have no idea what we should include in our Tfillot.
When I daven for soldiers and hostages, I know the physical and spiritual dangers that they are in.
What specific tfillot should I add or concentrate on for the wellbeing of the valiant heroes who have left the Yeshivot so that they can relax in their parent's home?
Once an avreich boasted to me that 'unlike those ba'al habattim who take time off', they learn solidly through the Western Christmas holiday period and public holidays.
I said, ok, let's count your vacation days.
4.5 weeks nissan
around 3 weeks tishri
around 3 weeks av
So that is around 10 to 11 weeks paid vacation. 20% of the year. Without mentioning the days off when the wife is sick and needs help with the kids, paternity, early chanukoh closing, family weddings and simchos, short Fridays, need to leave before shabbos rosh chodesh nissan and fly home type days, and similar.
Compare that to the amount of paid vacation a typical ba'al habos gets. I can't just not show up at work when the wife is sick to look after the kids, or disappear for a day when my second cousin once removed gets married in a town a few hundred miles away.
You work more than three shifts (sometimes four) a week? If yes, I don't want you taking care of me! So that's a total of 36 hours, maybe 48. A kollel guy learns at least 10 hours a day, five days a week, plus another 4 on Friday, for a minimum total of 54.
And I'm sure you are royally compensated. If not look for a better hospital.
Ok, so a good hard-working professional would put in say 45 hours a week (probably a lot more). They work 54 hours a week. That is 20% more.
Out hypothetical professional say gets six weeks vacation (including all public holidays etc). So the kollel person that genuinly works 54 hours a week (not many clock up 10 hours, by the way) should get 7.5 weeks. How do you get to 11 (plus, all extras, like early chanukah, wife-sick days, need to fly home a few days before rosh chodesh nissan type days etc.
6 weeks vacation? Not in the US. I worked in the US for many years. You start out at 10 days vacation and it doesn’t go up that much. Now let’s consider Yom Tov. Take this year.
Pesach is Tuesday and Wednesday, and then Monday and Tuesday. That’s 4 days. Then Shavuos is Wednesday and Thursday another 2 days. Rosh Hashana is Thursday and Friday and then Succos is again Thursday and Friday. So just Yom Tov this year requires a professional to use 12 vacation days. Now include Purim, Tisha bav that’s 14 days. So you have zero vacation days to actually do anything. Additionally, 2-3 months a year shabbos starts really early so you need to leave work at 2:30. You need an accommodating boss and of course to make up the time.
Of course it - but resolving all those difficult Shachs is very stressful :) We just don't get it.
In the UK, there are 8 public holidays, plus a professional at a senior level may get 27-30 workdays days, to cater for long workdays they are expected to put in.
How can you take off all YT with only 10 vacation days!
Hospital nurses work 8.5 hours per shift, at least in Israel. Very little slack time. If you're lucky, you might be able to grab a quick bite in the break room.
Any in any event, there are numerous professions, pilots, lorry drivers, doctors in hospitals who work incredibly long shifts, and no, they do NOT get 11 weeks vacation a year.
Stop being apologetic. Firstly, the Av bein hazmanin is new, it did not exist historically, and secondly, the system comes from a time when travel was much more expensive and lengthier.
I'm not being apologetic. I don't think they should have such a long Ben Hazmanim. But most of those people you refer to have longer breaks in between shifts and besides, they are making a pompous truckload of money to make it worth it. So please.
What does that have to do with anything? Salaries are set by the market. I get paid a lot in hi tech because the company that pays me thinks it’s worth it. If I either I don’t produce or the company loses money or decides what I do isn’t worth it anymore I lose my job which has happened to me more than once. With a high salary comes high stress. When is the last time a kollel guy got a frantic call at 10:30 at night that the system is down and it needs to be fixed now and then spent the next few hours going through logs debugging a problem?
"Work" consists of performing a service or producing goods for which someone pays money. Learning is challenging, not slacking off can be challenging, even grueling, but it is not "work".
No. The question is very simple. Does working 40-50 hours a week justify so generous a vacation schedule? And the answer is, generally no. Now there are professions where generous time off is vital to performance. Surgeons, pilots and workers in areas where any mistake is intolerable should be given proper time off. Teachers, who we don't want burnt out and thereby shortchange their student's lives should be given enough time to recuperate. For the rest of us, we'll have to do with two weeks a year until we retire.
So what would happen if the kolley guy gets only two weeks off in ניסן? What will be the cost to his performance? You think he'll conflate a סטנסיל with a מרחשת and in consequence everyone will have to kasher and dispose everything in their kitchen and be declared ממזרים? Why does he need to pampered (in this regard alone) at a time when he insists he's performaning a vital service to the nation's security?
I suppose that's why many have all those coffee and schmoozing breaks. Most botei midroshim seem to have a several schmoozers outside at any one moment. I suppose it's better schmoozing outside than inside.
Seriously, why is learning really hard? Hard enough to justify 11 weeks paid vacation?
A lot of things are really hard. It's very common for soldiers and miluimniks to guard 8 hours on, 8 off, but they do that sometimes. That's probably harder. During internship and residency, doctors may be at the hospital for 24-hour shifts more than once a week, in addition to their regular workday. When I was a hospital nurse, I was frequently asked to work 7AM-2PM, then 11PM-7AM during the same 24 hour period, or 2PM-11PM followed by 7AM-2PM the following morning.
I'm an orthodox Jew in my 40s who learnt about 10y ago to think for myself and use my own brain.
But I grew up in the. Charedi yeshiva system and recall that while you're inside it, and being spammed repeatedly by the hanhola of the yeshiva and all the charedi magazines, you genuinely believe you are right, and all the chilonim and DL are wrong. Even though it clearly makes zero sense
Lol who is the one with myopic vision? Maybe it's actually you with your "it clearly makes no sense" and not those older, wider and more engrossed in God's torah than you?
The point was made that learning is hard and it can be if one takes it seriously. And learning is enjoyable and creates self satisfaction and most have been lead to believe that they are doing Hashem's wishes. I have been with many serious athletes who take their sport seriously (cycling, skiing, running etc) The training is also hard but it is also enjoyable, addicting, and instills a feeling of accomplishment. These are people who are not going to be professionals in their sports but give it their all, so to speak. The point of R Slifkin is that kollel people do not produce any services or anything tangible. They do not publish, do not lead shiuring for the less religious, do not do outreach, do not do gmelute hasidim to the public. To this end their efforts are selfish. They fill their cerebral tank with lots of Torah but what do they give back? Is it our lot just to learn and not improve the world? Is the midrash (literally and figuratively) the ekar or the maaseh?
What if someone is learning because Hashem says that's what we should do? Because someone who has the opportunity to learn and doesn't, even for a minute, is being oiver on a lav d'oraysa according to our poskim. Is that selfish?
The serious athletes give back nothing. They are "in it" for themselves. There is the dopamine rush, endorphins-feel-good experience. Usually is committed hard work
Worth noting that in DL yeshivas the bein hazmanim is much shorter. Just a couple days before and after Pesach in my experience. Which makes sense as for those students learning is something they want to do, not an excuse to avoid doing other things (army/work).
Yup. I received an email from a Haredi shul with the following subject line:
הוספות בזמני התפילה בשביל הגיבורי חיל שחזרו הביתה להגין על השכונה בלימוד תורתם.
I understand several of my neighbors who have, as of sometime after 10/7, ceased walking into the premises of Haredi institutions or participating in their events.
In the mornings, they normally have minyanim almost all the time around the clock. They added in 8AM and 9AM minyanim for their "heroes."
But have no fear! There's also an existing 9:30AM minyan for those Mishmar patrol members whose sustenance is bread with salt, a bissel of water, and who sleep on the beis medrash floor after a hard day's night.
Minyan factories (including their coincidental swelling bein hazmanim time) are a thorn in the side of my debating partners from the charedi apologetics department on this and on the IM blog. They haven't been able to explain them away (other than the occasional denial that they actually exist) so resort to insults or whataboutism.
I am not sure your point, but I have seen people daven very long shemonei esreis, lots of devout shockeling, but well after sof zeman tefillah, l'kol hashittos.
I believe the 'latter prophets' had things to say about that sort of behaviour.
OK. However, this place has no lack of minyanim, beginning with Netz. Also, different varieties of kipot and age groups show up for late minyanim. And, no, I'm not going to take a census. :)
I'd like to be so principled but I've already 'principled' myself years ago out of one nearby haredi shul and any other shul with flexible minyan times is distant.
However, I need to consider this coming Elul whether to continue paying annual membership to the shul. I'm beginning to feel that if they can freebee off of me, I should do the same in return. No, it's not about revenge (to whomever is trying to read my mind).
What really bothers me are the charedim who think that learning a Rav Chaim is a much greater intellectual challenge then anything in the world. They’ve never learned advanced mathematics, physics, computer science etc. to compare. I have and while lomdus is on a high intellectual level is it higher then advanced mathematics, or cryptography, game theory, etc.? I don’t think so. Many of the things that I learned in a computer science masters program were harder than understanding a sugya with all the lomdus.
Ok. You know first year undergraduate level math. The most advanced math I studied was something like four times as hard as that. And I suspect that was nowhere a doctoral level.
You're being evasive. You actually haven't told us what "college level" math you've studied. Nor have you defined (even vaguely) what it means to have learned a sugya properly, or whether the average kollel student has achieved that level.
I guess that advanced undergraduate math (i.e. 3rd++ year courses) is only accessible to less than 5% of the population. I don't think that the majority of kollel students meet that level of intellectual ability. Hence they never studied a sugya to your satisfaction. What do you have against them?
You've lost the plot. This whole thread, which I admittedly take some blame for, started with the claim that kollel guys are justified in 10 weeks vacation because they work so hard. How do they work so hard? You claim it's because learning a sugya is much harder than Phd level physics or math. Marty questions you entire claim. I didn't challenge your claim, but was skeptical if you actually knew how difficult advanced math is. Given your evasion, I stand by that skepticism. There is nothing bombastic in mentioning that I never studied math that was more than four times harder than "first year undergraduate level math." For anybody in the math world, it's a admission of failure. For anyone else, it could be mistaken for bombast.
But all this is irrelevant. Because if you declared that such learning is more advanced than what <1% of the population are capable of, than the vast majority of kollel students are by your standards not learning that hard. So why so much vacation? Why should the kollel masses, talented and dedicated as they may be, have lengthy vacations that are only justified by the hard work done by the kollel elite?
Or is there another reason for the long vacations?
It amazes me how defensive you are. Learning a sugya is an intellectual exercise. So are many other things. Learning is not inherently more difficult than other intellectual endeavors and in some ways is easier.
How do you know that? You never met me. I’m not hostile. It just annoys me when people make silly statements about Torah learning with no basis in fact.
There is a famous story about someone who learned in Volozhin under Rav Chaim and then worked with Einstein. Someone asked him who was the bigger genius? He answered that Rav Chaim was a great basal masbir but in terms of sheer intellect it was Einstein. The charedi world couldn’t handle that.
Yeah, we know the talk. It's all brainwashing. Spoken by people who don't have a clue about dvanced mathematics, physics, computer science etc. to compare.
"And if you can't appreciate that, then you have never done it."
Cult leader "If you have faith in our cult, real faith, you can move that tree"
Follower: "I tried, I fasted, I flogged myself, I had faith, but the tree didn't move"
Cult leader "Well, its clear you did not have enough faith. If you did, the tree would move".
", lots of people know about advanced mathematics, physics, computer science to compare. "
No. Saying "quantum", "Turing" , "Cantor" or "Godel" doesn't mean "knowing". It means the meager achievement of recognizing a buzzword. The most basic concepts in advanced physics requires complex differential equations. Lots? Nonsense. I doubt even "lots' would apply to someone who could recognize a complex differential equation, let alone solve one.
Lots of people? Really? In Yeshivaland?. The mashgichim, high school rebbes etc who spout that gemoroh learning is as hard as [insert your choice here] really know those disciplines? It's the same people that claim gemoroh teaches maths yet every sugyoh involving kabbin, seloim, selah medina/tzuri etc was a closed book for many and skipped or not dealt with properly until Artscroll came along.
I have no doubt that the soldier from the war is currently writing a 'guest post' explaining why the vast majoriry of DL/RZ people have no issues with the hypocry involved in having bein hazmanim in the middle of a war. Only a few chareidi haters have an issue.
When I was in kollel and the yeshiva we despised the bein hazmanim and learned full time and my wife worked regular hours. I've never been on a being azmanim trip or a vacation, but granted we were fanatical.
Slifkin after one good and one ok post is back to the insanity of insasantly bashing the charedim. Incidentally, many of my secular and MO relatives have flown abroad for vacations, 2 got פרופיל 21 and are chilling. Life isn't black and white and takes place in the gray area.
What's emerging is that there's a significant percent of charedim who are not learning full time. And then there's a percent who learn full time (but little overtime) , but not with a high level of dedication and/or ability. And then there's the elite. And then there's the elite of the elite who may actually meet the standard of the רמב"ם as being comparable to שבט לוי.
But the masses demand an exemption on account of the elite.
It wasn’t the military’s iron dome rockets that protected Israel, it was the chareidi Torah thunderbolts that destroyed all those Iranian drones.
As soon as I realised that Jerusalem was under attack I immediately stopped eliminating every micro-gram of chametz in my home and instantly began intoning
שור שנגח את הפרה, שור שנגח את הפרה,.
And you know what? Hashem instantly became aware that Israel was under attack and seized on my ruminations to protect everyone.
No doubt you got stuck on wondering why the mishnah gave the example of poroh and not shor. Just like those two bochurim that spent three hours on the question and didn't move on.
I recently went on a work trip to China. The plane to Thailand was packed to the gills with Israelis of all ages going on vacation. However Bein Hazmanim is really especially terrible during war time. By the way serious bochrim and avreichim learn the majority of their vacation anyway. So again this is just another Chareidi bashing rage post. (I will admit I like the idea of staggered vacations alot and hope it will be used)
Many of them are gone by now; opportunities lost and political lines more deeply driven.
But I believe if they knew they would given a safe and respected platform ,there are still great and selfless talmidim chachamim alive today- (who altruistically love Hashem and Jews) from all the chuggim that could meet and come up with solid guidance.
Yes, no one is perfect and with each person you can find flaws.
That's easy.
But, again, I posit the dismal situation in Israel now is a byproduct of hate of Torah Judaism. That fight is not 75 years old....
We need to be more positive and accepting in teaching our message and they need to be open to acceptance of that guidance.
..and why would the non-Chareidi public want guidance from Talmidei Chachamim who have never studied English or math beyond the 5th grade levels, and have no knowledge of economics, healthcare systems, science & technology, and -yes- no understanding of the workings of the military...and barely acknowledge the State as more than a tenants association?
“the Bostoner Rebbe spoke at a news conference and said the following:
אני מפחד מהיום שיהיו 61 חברי כנסת, כי אני לא יודע איך ניתן לנהל מדינה עם האחריות של שמירת התורה. לדוגמה, לסגור את שדה התעופה בשבת, בעולם המודרני אני לא יודע איך אפשר לעשות את זה". ובכנות הוסיף ש"ברוך השם שלא באים לשאול אותי שאלות כאלה".
I am afraid of the day when we have 61 MKs because I don't know how you can run a state with the responsibilities of keeping the Torah. For example, shutting down the airport on Shabbos, in the modern world I don't see how you can do that. And in a moment of candour he added "Thank God that no one comes to ask me these types questions"
This is a classic case where you start with a lie, then have to build a structure of lies to support your original lie, and you end up with something truly bizarre and twisted. It's like Russian state propaganda or something (but presumably without the ill intent). Remarkable.
That avreichim are really the ones fighting Hamas. It logically follows that avreichim should be treated like war heroes when they "come home" (i.e. "go on vacation") for bein hazmanim. Twisted, I know . . .
It's amazing. Dozens and dozens and dozens of comments here from Charedi apologists. Yet not one of them actually addresses the point of the post. Some of them don't even seem to have the reading comprehension to understand it.
To summarize: IF, as charedim claim, their constant Torah learning is necessary to protect Israel (and that's why Gedolim constantly warn about a weakening in Torah study during Bein HaZmanim being harmful for Israel), then why do they have Bein HaZmanim at all, especially during such a dangerous time?! Instead, they should take staggered breaks, just like the army does, rather than everyone taking a break (of a month!) at the same time.
But the bigger question that I have right now is this one: How come all the charedi commentators here either did not understand that this was the point of the post, or chose not to respond to it and to instead distract with unrelated issues?
Presumably, the answer is that they do not have an answer to this post.
The answer to your question is because it is very obvious that the goal of this post is not an honest effort to effect change in bein hazmanim in order to increase Torah learning for the good of Israel. It is simply another attack on charedim. How do I know this? Because even if bein hazmanim was canceled this year and even if yeshivah students learned 24/7 and ate only bread and water and slept on the floor and relocated to learn on the front - and whatever other nonsense you and your groupies have suggested over the past six months - Even if they did all of that - guess what - YOU WOULD NOT BE SATISFIED! You would probably not be satisfied even if all charedim were drafted at the same rate as non-charedim if they and their communities didn't actually suffer casualties at the same rate as non-charedim. You don't even believe that Torah protects the same way charedim believe it so why would you be advocating for canceling bein hazmanim.
To criticize someone for something they're doing wrong, when a change in that behavior would not change your opinion of them whatsoever, is not constructive criticism - it's just hate.
So no, the "charedi apologists" do not see "the point of the post" as a call to cancel bein hazmanim, because it is not the point of the post. The point of the post is the usual point - bash charedim.
Obviously my point is not to change bein hazmanim - I don't believe that their Torah has any protective power anyway! The point is to prove that THEY don't believe that Torah has crucial protective power.
And if they changed bein hazmanim that would prove to you that they believe it? How would that make you any happier? would you attack them any less? We all know the answer..
I'll be honest, I agree to main point of the post. I even stated that below. What I commented on is that coming from you it's just an attack, not something to engage with.
"are busy preparing for the mitzvos of Pesach"
Are you suggesting that mitzvos now protects, just like 'torah learning'? In that case the general exeamption from the draft can be ended because chareidim will be fullfilling the mitzvah of preventing loss of life. As well as many others.
Love the insults at the end. Insults are the refuge of the insecure, by the way.
Great, so mitzvot protect just as well as Torah. Sounds like the Hesder recipe is correct. Physical AND spiritual protection. (AND as much Torah as they can learn)
Please don't insult Hesder Students by claiming that "some of them are as religious as chareidim" - the vast majority of them are far more "religious" than most Haredim, Hesder students are absolutely immersed in Talmud Torah, not because their society insists on it, and not for a Shidduch or any other reason, but for a 100% commitment to Torah.
They are also 100% committed to mitzvot, including the Mitzvah of defending the land - mitzvot which are completely ignored by the Haredi community.
It is possible that a percentage of the Haredi community are almost as religious as the Hesder community, and Kol Hakavod to them.
"without which, seculars such as yourself would surely not survive in such a hostile environment"
So how did we survive in 48 and 67 and 73?
"I'm not sure how religious the hesderniks are"
That is simply one of the biggest examples of Motzee Shem Ra on an entire community that I've heard in a long time!!!
".. in addition are busy preparing for the mitzvos of Pesach"
and what do you think DL families do, eat ham sandwiches at seder?
"I'm not sure how religious the hesderniks are "
And that's the difference between living in a bubble and an isolation tank.
What makes RNS "secular" that you don't agree with him !?
Name calling !?? RNS "insane,twisted mind." What makes
you Chareidi that you insult?! What happened to your to your מוסר ספרים?!
I got the same from the chanichei yeshivos in my neighborhood. The extra times were a 9:00 and 9:30 shacharis!
I was so bothered by it that I wrote the gabbai yesterday (copied below). I've maintained a good relationship with him and to his credit, he wrote a lengthy reply to me which helped, though suffice it to say I didn't love it.
Dear Rabbi ---,
With all due respect, this title is quite distasteful. If the bochurim are the giborei chayil protecting Klal Yisrael, why are they returning home? Shouldn't the zeman be extended until next Friday?
And if they're learning is so important b/c Torah is מגנא ומצלא, why add 9:00 and 9:30 minyanim? Surely giborei chayil would start davening and learning much earlier than that?
I know many people who have lost a relative during this war, including from this neighborhood, and I think there could be much more sensitivity in how bein hazmanim is framed (though again, I fail to understand why the zeman is not being extended).
Written with pain,
----
If he is like 99% of all gaboim in the world, he probably said 'that's what the 'oilam' want, and the rav said not a problem". something like that.
Sorry I'm just seeing this, here's his response:
לכבוד הרב חיים.
שלום וברכה,
אני מצטער שהכותרת גרם לך כאב.
שבוע שעבר היתה הועידה של איחוד בני הישיבות השנתית.
הרבה גדולי ישראל הגיעו. הרב דון סגל, הרב משה הלל הירש, הרב דוד כהן-חברון, הרב חיים פרץ ברמן, הרב גלאי וכו' וכו'.
אני חושב שכולם דיברו על תורה מגנא ומצלא. יותר חשוב שבחורים ילמדו להרבות זכוית לעם ישראל. צריכים לוחמים צריכים לימוד התורה.
הבחורים למדו שישה חודשים בלי חופש. ללמוד יומם ולילה לא קל אבל הם למדו ובזכות הלימוד של כלל ישראל היו הרבה ניסים.
הרב משה הלל הירש שליט"א בהתחלה סבר שהבחורים יאריכו הזמן אבל שארי ראשי הישיבות אמרו שהבחורים חייבים לצאת לחופש כדי שיוכלו לבנות כוחות לזמן קיץ.
צריכים מניינים בשעה 9:00 ו 9:30 בחורים לומדים מאוחר בלילה צריכים לנוח.
הרבנים שדיברו בועיד אמרו שהשנה לא לעשות טיולים. אנחנו בשעת חירום. לנוח כן . לטייל רק במקום שלא ציבורי. וכל בחור צריך ללמוד ולהמשיך לגדול, ולא לאבד מה שהשיג עד עכשיו.
I don't understand the line ion the Torah.
Why would we Daven for the " הגיבורי חיל שחזרו הביתה" - I thought that they were davening for us or our children currently in the army?
What exactly are we supposed to pray for? That they get the correct pshat when learning, otherwise their learning will be ineffective? That they manage to get up on time for minyan? That they are not distracted by the evils in their neighborhoods?
I'm not trying to be funny - I honestly have no idea what we should include in our Tfillot.
When I daven for soldiers and hostages, I know the physical and spiritual dangers that they are in.
What specific tfillot should I add or concentrate on for the wellbeing of the valiant heroes who have left the Yeshivot so that they can relax in their parent's home?
For their well being. Like in yekum purkan
I was predicting this....
Once an avreich boasted to me that 'unlike those ba'al habattim who take time off', they learn solidly through the Western Christmas holiday period and public holidays.
I said, ok, let's count your vacation days.
4.5 weeks nissan
around 3 weeks tishri
around 3 weeks av
So that is around 10 to 11 weeks paid vacation. 20% of the year. Without mentioning the days off when the wife is sick and needs help with the kids, paternity, early chanukoh closing, family weddings and simchos, short Fridays, need to leave before shabbos rosh chodesh nissan and fly home type days, and similar.
Compare that to the amount of paid vacation a typical ba'al habos gets. I can't just not show up at work when the wife is sick to look after the kids, or disappear for a day when my second cousin once removed gets married in a town a few hundred miles away.
He got the point.
How much time do people get off for Christmas/Easter holidays? Unless they're teachers, it's not that much. Plus, Easter always comes out on a Sunday.
And they "work" on Sunday and have much longer hours.
Excuse me. I work 12 hours every Sunday in the hospital while they chat over coffee.
Yes, indeed. I refer to doctor's shifts below.
You work more than three shifts (sometimes four) a week? If yes, I don't want you taking care of me! So that's a total of 36 hours, maybe 48. A kollel guy learns at least 10 hours a day, five days a week, plus another 4 on Friday, for a minimum total of 54.
And I'm sure you are royally compensated. If not look for a better hospital.
Ok, so a good hard-working professional would put in say 45 hours a week (probably a lot more). They work 54 hours a week. That is 20% more.
Out hypothetical professional say gets six weeks vacation (including all public holidays etc). So the kollel person that genuinly works 54 hours a week (not many clock up 10 hours, by the way) should get 7.5 weeks. How do you get to 11 (plus, all extras, like early chanukah, wife-sick days, need to fly home a few days before rosh chodesh nissan type days etc.
6 weeks vacation? Not in the US. I worked in the US for many years. You start out at 10 days vacation and it doesn’t go up that much. Now let’s consider Yom Tov. Take this year.
Pesach is Tuesday and Wednesday, and then Monday and Tuesday. That’s 4 days. Then Shavuos is Wednesday and Thursday another 2 days. Rosh Hashana is Thursday and Friday and then Succos is again Thursday and Friday. So just Yom Tov this year requires a professional to use 12 vacation days. Now include Purim, Tisha bav that’s 14 days. So you have zero vacation days to actually do anything. Additionally, 2-3 months a year shabbos starts really early so you need to leave work at 2:30. You need an accommodating boss and of course to make up the time.
So no, the kollel schedule is infinitely easier.
Of course it - but resolving all those difficult Shachs is very stressful :) We just don't get it.
In the UK, there are 8 public holidays, plus a professional at a senior level may get 27-30 workdays days, to cater for long workdays they are expected to put in.
How can you take off all YT with only 10 vacation days!
"You start out at 10 days vacation and it doesn’t go up that much."
I never got 10 days. Most started at 5, and one started at zero.
I agree that vacation shouldn't be that long.
In Israel kollel is 5 days a week Monday-Thursday 7.5 hours a day. Then there is separate night kollel of 1-2 hours.
Should night kollel count towards the number of hours? Many working people manage to squeeze in night (and pre-שחרית) learning into their schedule.
Good point. I learned in a night kollel many years while working during the day.
Includes sunday
Yes my mistake. It’s Sunday - Thursday
Why do they have longer hours?
Typical hours for morning seider - say 9.30 to 1.
Afternoon: 3 - 7
So that is 7.5 hours a day. Many ba'alei battim work far more hours a day.
Even so, there are professions, pilots, doctors in hospitals who work incredibly long shifts, and no, they do not get 11 weeks vacation a year.
Hospital nurses work 8.5 hours per shift, at least in Israel. Very little slack time. If you're lucky, you might be able to grab a quick bite in the break room.
I don't think only until 1 is standard. And night seder.
Many kollelim do not have a night seider.
Any in any event, there are numerous professions, pilots, lorry drivers, doctors in hospitals who work incredibly long shifts, and no, they do NOT get 11 weeks vacation a year.
Stop being apologetic. Firstly, the Av bein hazmanin is new, it did not exist historically, and secondly, the system comes from a time when travel was much more expensive and lengthier.
I'm not being apologetic. I don't think they should have such a long Ben Hazmanim. But most of those people you refer to have longer breaks in between shifts and besides, they are making a pompous truckload of money to make it worth it. So please.
I see, are you suggesting kollel people's learning amount is connected with the amount of money they receive? Let's not go there.
Standard kollel in Israel is 7.5 hours a day. Night Seder is optional in different night kollels where they get paid for that as well.
They get paid close to nil. And almost no one doesn't do night seder. They need the money!
What does that have to do with anything? Salaries are set by the market. I get paid a lot in hi tech because the company that pays me thinks it’s worth it. If I either I don’t produce or the company loses money or decides what I do isn’t worth it anymore I lose my job which has happened to me more than once. With a high salary comes high stress. When is the last time a kollel guy got a frantic call at 10:30 at night that the system is down and it needs to be fixed now and then spent the next few hours going through logs debugging a problem?
That is all completely irrelevant to vacation time.
So consider something besides the professions. Some worker's shifts can be 10/11/12 hours. And they don't get 11 weeks paid vacation.
Stop being an apologetic here. There is nothing kollel people do that merits them 11 weeks paid vacation, plus all the extras.
Those who work 12 hour shifts are usually working a maximum of 3 or 4 shifts a week. And cash in a ton of money to make it worth it.
They don't "work" at all. And it's interesting that you haven't responded to the actual point of the post. As usual.
"Work" consists of performing a service or producing goods for which someone pays money. Learning is challenging, not slacking off can be challenging, even grueling, but it is not "work".
Kollel students are on full time vacation. Don't work. Welfare class leeches.
Having done both they don’t work any harder or longer than people working in hi tech.
"Whataboutism"
No. The question is very simple. Does working 40-50 hours a week justify so generous a vacation schedule? And the answer is, generally no. Now there are professions where generous time off is vital to performance. Surgeons, pilots and workers in areas where any mistake is intolerable should be given proper time off. Teachers, who we don't want burnt out and thereby shortchange their student's lives should be given enough time to recuperate. For the rest of us, we'll have to do with two weeks a year until we retire.
So what would happen if the kolley guy gets only two weeks off in ניסן? What will be the cost to his performance? You think he'll conflate a סטנסיל with a מרחשת and in consequence everyone will have to kasher and dispose everything in their kitchen and be declared ממזרים? Why does he need to pampered (in this regard alone) at a time when he insists he's performaning a vital service to the nation's security?
dreamer or liar
I wrote about the kollel schedule vs work schedule a long time ago. It’s still true today. https://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2015/06/kollel-to-work-transition.html
I'm not sure what you guys are trying to prove. If a kollel guy is actually learning really well, he is still being lazy?
As a side, mind you, his wife needs to work harder to make ends meet so he needs to chip in more with the house chores and baby care.
No one is saying he is lazy. But it’s not a really demanding schedule. See my post https://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2015/06/kollel-to-work-transition.html
Have you ever tried learning that long? It's really hard!
There are very few things that are not hard to do for 9 hours straight. Maybe sleeping, but possibly not.
I suppose that's why many have all those coffee and schmoozing breaks. Most botei midroshim seem to have a several schmoozers outside at any one moment. I suppose it's better schmoozing outside than inside.
Seriously, why is learning really hard? Hard enough to justify 11 weeks paid vacation?
Yes I learned full time for years. It’s not harder than working on a complex programming issue.
A lot of things are really hard. It's very common for soldiers and miluimniks to guard 8 hours on, 8 off, but they do that sometimes. That's probably harder. During internship and residency, doctors may be at the hospital for 24-hour shifts more than once a week, in addition to their regular workday. When I was a hospital nurse, I was frequently asked to work 7AM-2PM, then 11PM-7AM during the same 24 hour period, or 2PM-11PM followed by 7AM-2PM the following morning.
The myopia is staggering.
I'm an orthodox Jew in my 40s who learnt about 10y ago to think for myself and use my own brain.
But I grew up in the. Charedi yeshiva system and recall that while you're inside it, and being spammed repeatedly by the hanhola of the yeshiva and all the charedi magazines, you genuinely believe you are right, and all the chilonim and DL are wrong. Even though it clearly makes zero sense
Yes, the echo-chamber. Surrounded by like-minded people since cheider. They don't have the 'keilim' to understand 'the other'.
Lol who is the one with myopic vision? Maybe it's actually you with your "it clearly makes no sense" and not those older, wider and more engrossed in God's torah than you?
Oh right, "those rabbis know nothing" anyways.
"But all of them have easier days,"
Easier than what? Their usual?
Anyway, not to worry: The Mir rosh yeshiva extended the zman to...today.
https://vinnews.com/2024/04/08/mir-rosh-yeshiva-calls-to-extend-winter-zman-until-3rd-of-nissan/
The point was made that learning is hard and it can be if one takes it seriously. And learning is enjoyable and creates self satisfaction and most have been lead to believe that they are doing Hashem's wishes. I have been with many serious athletes who take their sport seriously (cycling, skiing, running etc) The training is also hard but it is also enjoyable, addicting, and instills a feeling of accomplishment. These are people who are not going to be professionals in their sports but give it their all, so to speak. The point of R Slifkin is that kollel people do not produce any services or anything tangible. They do not publish, do not lead shiuring for the less religious, do not do outreach, do not do gmelute hasidim to the public. To this end their efforts are selfish. They fill their cerebral tank with lots of Torah but what do they give back? Is it our lot just to learn and not improve the world? Is the midrash (literally and figuratively) the ekar or the maaseh?
What if someone is learning because Hashem says that's what we should do? Because someone who has the opportunity to learn and doesn't, even for a minute, is being oiver on a lav d'oraysa according to our poskim. Is that selfish?
To what lav d'oraysa are you referring?
Now respond to the point please
Sorry, meant Asei.
What do the 'many serious athletes' give back?
The serious athletes give back nothing. They are "in it" for themselves. There is the dopamine rush, endorphins-feel-good experience. Usually is committed hard work
Worth noting that in DL yeshivas the bein hazmanim is much shorter. Just a couple days before and after Pesach in my experience. Which makes sense as for those students learning is something they want to do, not an excuse to avoid doing other things (army/work).
Yup. I received an email from a Haredi shul with the following subject line:
הוספות בזמני התפילה בשביל הגיבורי חיל שחזרו הביתה להגין על השכונה בלימוד תורתם.
I understand several of my neighbors who have, as of sometime after 10/7, ceased walking into the premises of Haredi institutions or participating in their events.
That subject line is unbelievable. I'm going to add it to the post. What were the additional tefillah times?
In the mornings, they normally have minyanim almost all the time around the clock. They added in 8AM and 9AM minyanim for their "heroes."
But have no fear! There's also an existing 9:30AM minyan for those Mishmar patrol members whose sustenance is bread with salt, a bissel of water, and who sleep on the beis medrash floor after a hard day's night.
Minyan factories (including their coincidental swelling bein hazmanim time) are a thorn in the side of my debating partners from the charedi apologetics department on this and on the IM blog. They haven't been able to explain them away (other than the occasional denial that they actually exist) so resort to insults or whataboutism.
This is a Litvishe shteibel. You don't go there for speed davening. They just have the multiple side-by-side facilities to allow for it.
I am not sure your point, but I have seen people daven very long shemonei esreis, lots of devout shockeling, but well after sof zeman tefillah, l'kol hashittos.
I believe the 'latter prophets' had things to say about that sort of behaviour.
OK. However, this place has no lack of minyanim, beginning with Netz. Also, different varieties of kipot and age groups show up for late minyanim. And, no, I'm not going to take a census. :)
Me too!
I'd like to be so principled but I've already 'principled' myself years ago out of one nearby haredi shul and any other shul with flexible minyan times is distant.
However, I need to consider this coming Elul whether to continue paying annual membership to the shul. I'm beginning to feel that if they can freebee off of me, I should do the same in return. No, it's not about revenge (to whomever is trying to read my mind).
A serious shailah of "lo titor" I think.
Not just a mind reader.
An uber-chacham mind reader!
What really bothers me are the charedim who think that learning a Rav Chaim is a much greater intellectual challenge then anything in the world. They’ve never learned advanced mathematics, physics, computer science etc. to compare. I have and while lomdus is on a high intellectual level is it higher then advanced mathematics, or cryptography, game theory, etc.? I don’t think so. Many of the things that I learned in a computer science masters program were harder than understanding a sugya with all the lomdus.
" but I studied college level mathematics "
Examples? Discrete Math or Complex Partial Differential Equations?
Translate the following and reveal its context- it's from an undergraduate course: ord(H) | ord(G)
Ok. You know first year undergraduate level math. The most advanced math I studied was something like four times as hard as that. And I suspect that was nowhere a doctoral level.
You're being evasive. You actually haven't told us what "college level" math you've studied. Nor have you defined (even vaguely) what it means to have learned a sugya properly, or whether the average kollel student has achieved that level.
I guess that advanced undergraduate math (i.e. 3rd++ year courses) is only accessible to less than 5% of the population. I don't think that the majority of kollel students meet that level of intellectual ability. Hence they never studied a sugya to your satisfaction. What do you have against them?
You've lost the plot. This whole thread, which I admittedly take some blame for, started with the claim that kollel guys are justified in 10 weeks vacation because they work so hard. How do they work so hard? You claim it's because learning a sugya is much harder than Phd level physics or math. Marty questions you entire claim. I didn't challenge your claim, but was skeptical if you actually knew how difficult advanced math is. Given your evasion, I stand by that skepticism. There is nothing bombastic in mentioning that I never studied math that was more than four times harder than "first year undergraduate level math." For anybody in the math world, it's a admission of failure. For anyone else, it could be mistaken for bombast.
But all this is irrelevant. Because if you declared that such learning is more advanced than what <1% of the population are capable of, than the vast majority of kollel students are by your standards not learning that hard. So why so much vacation? Why should the kollel masses, talented and dedicated as they may be, have lengthy vacations that are only justified by the hard work done by the kollel elite?
Or is there another reason for the long vacations?
It amazes me how defensive you are. Learning a sugya is an intellectual exercise. So are many other things. Learning is not inherently more difficult than other intellectual endeavors and in some ways is easier.
How do you know that? You never met me. I’m not hostile. It just annoys me when people make silly statements about Torah learning with no basis in fact.
There is a famous story about someone who learned in Volozhin under Rav Chaim and then worked with Einstein. Someone asked him who was the bigger genius? He answered that Rav Chaim was a great basal masbir but in terms of sheer intellect it was Einstein. The charedi world couldn’t handle that.
Yeah, we know the talk. It's all brainwashing. Spoken by people who don't have a clue about dvanced mathematics, physics, computer science etc. to compare.
"And if you can't appreciate that, then you have never done it."
Cult leader "If you have faith in our cult, real faith, you can move that tree"
Follower: "I tried, I fasted, I flogged myself, I had faith, but the tree didn't move"
Cult leader "Well, its clear you did not have enough faith. If you did, the tree would move".
", lots of people know about advanced mathematics, physics, computer science to compare. "
No. Saying "quantum", "Turing" , "Cantor" or "Godel" doesn't mean "knowing". It means the meager achievement of recognizing a buzzword. The most basic concepts in advanced physics requires complex differential equations. Lots? Nonsense. I doubt even "lots' would apply to someone who could recognize a complex differential equation, let alone solve one.
"What, in your community, is everybody uneducated numbskulls?"
That's an anti-social statement.
For your own safety, I humbly plead that you don't repeat that to those who don't have a graduate degree in such fields.
Lots of people? Really? In Yeshivaland?. The mashgichim, high school rebbes etc who spout that gemoroh learning is as hard as [insert your choice here] really know those disciplines? It's the same people that claim gemoroh teaches maths yet every sugyoh involving kabbin, seloim, selah medina/tzuri etc was a closed book for many and skipped or not dealt with properly until Artscroll came along.
Pul the other one, its got bells on...
I seriously doubt you really know about advanced mathematics. College level mathematics is one thing PhD level mathematics is a whole different level.
I have no doubt that the soldier from the war is currently writing a 'guest post' explaining why the vast majoriry of DL/RZ people have no issues with the hypocry involved in having bein hazmanim in the middle of a war. Only a few chareidi haters have an issue.
When I was in kollel and the yeshiva we despised the bein hazmanim and learned full time and my wife worked regular hours. I've never been on a being azmanim trip or a vacation, but granted we were fanatical.
Slifkin after one good and one ok post is back to the insanity of insasantly bashing the charedim. Incidentally, many of my secular and MO relatives have flown abroad for vacations, 2 got פרופיל 21 and are chilling. Life isn't black and white and takes place in the gray area.
Doesn't address the point of my post.
You are clearly in the very small minority. Just go to Teverya in Ab and you will see.
What's emerging is that there's a significant percent of charedim who are not learning full time. And then there's a percent who learn full time (but little overtime) , but not with a high level of dedication and/or ability. And then there's the elite. And then there's the elite of the elite who may actually meet the standard of the רמב"ם as being comparable to שבט לוי.
But the masses demand an exemption on account of the elite.
Did you see that?
It wasn’t the military’s iron dome rockets that protected Israel, it was the chareidi Torah thunderbolts that destroyed all those Iranian drones.
As soon as I realised that Jerusalem was under attack I immediately stopped eliminating every micro-gram of chametz in my home and instantly began intoning
שור שנגח את הפרה, שור שנגח את הפרה,.
And you know what? Hashem instantly became aware that Israel was under attack and seized on my ruminations to protect everyone.
No doubt you got stuck on wondering why the mishnah gave the example of poroh and not shor. Just like those two bochurim that spent three hours on the question and didn't move on.
@test,
Since I’m Chiloni, it didn’t take me at least 3 hours to elucidate why.
The שור was horny and the פרה wasn’t.
What do you mean? Everywhere else its shor shenogach as hashor?
I recently went on a work trip to China. The plane to Thailand was packed to the gills with Israelis of all ages going on vacation. However Bein Hazmanim is really especially terrible during war time. By the way serious bochrim and avreichim learn the majority of their vacation anyway. So again this is just another Chareidi bashing rage post. (I will admit I like the idea of staggered vacations alot and hope it will be used)
None of those people going on vacation claim that their work keeps Israel safe.
One issue is, that Israel sits squarely on top of Eretz Yisrael.
If only the people who run Israel would run it how Eretz Yisrael should be run.
If only they would respect and consult those who know how, instead of fomenting hate, divisiveness and disgust for Hashem's servants.
Who knows if this war would have started?
The psychotic allowance and accounting of collateral damage would bow to the Torah's respect for every life.
Who knows if this infiltration would have been allowed to take place. Who knows if the army would have different aims and a lot more soldiers?
Isn't Shalom the greatest shield?
Wouldn't we probably be granted much more success from Hashem "Ish Milchama"?
Who are the people who know how Eretz Yisrael should be run?
Admittedly,
Many of them are gone by now; opportunities lost and political lines more deeply driven.
But I believe if they knew they would given a safe and respected platform ,there are still great and selfless talmidim chachamim alive today- (who altruistically love Hashem and Jews) from all the chuggim that could meet and come up with solid guidance.
Yes, no one is perfect and with each person you can find flaws.
That's easy.
But, again, I posit the dismal situation in Israel now is a byproduct of hate of Torah Judaism. That fight is not 75 years old....
We need to be more positive and accepting in teaching our message and they need to be open to acceptance of that guidance.
..and why would the non-Chareidi public want guidance from Talmidei Chachamim who have never studied English or math beyond the 5th grade levels, and have no knowledge of economics, healthcare systems, science & technology, and -yes- no understanding of the workings of the military...and barely acknowledge the State as more than a tenants association?
People like this http://ajewwithquestions.blogspot.com/2016/09/can-modern-state-be-run-according-to.html
“the Bostoner Rebbe spoke at a news conference and said the following:
אני מפחד מהיום שיהיו 61 חברי כנסת, כי אני לא יודע איך ניתן לנהל מדינה עם האחריות של שמירת התורה. לדוגמה, לסגור את שדה התעופה בשבת, בעולם המודרני אני לא יודע איך אפשר לעשות את זה". ובכנות הוסיף ש"ברוך השם שלא באים לשאול אותי שאלות כאלה".
I am afraid of the day when we have 61 MKs because I don't know how you can run a state with the responsibilities of keeping the Torah. For example, shutting down the airport on Shabbos, in the modern world I don't see how you can do that. And in a moment of candour he added "Thank God that no one comes to ask me these types questions"
Hmmm, so are you suggesting that charedim need to make sure that they don't become the majority?
"We have to keep in mind Torah is infinitely more important than having a modern country."
And learning Torah is more important than eating cheese. Yet, most Gedolim have eaten cheese.
This is a classic case where you start with a lie, then have to build a structure of lies to support your original lie, and you end up with something truly bizarre and twisted. It's like Russian state propaganda or something (but presumably without the ill intent). Remarkable.
@Weaver
What was the lie and what were the subsequent structures of lies to support the original lie?
That avreichim are really the ones fighting Hamas. It logically follows that avreichim should be treated like war heroes when they "come home" (i.e. "go on vacation") for bein hazmanim. Twisted, I know . . .
@Weaver,
Whom are you accusing of lying and how is “coming home” being treated as heroes? What exactly are you complaining about?
Kindly be more specific.
Please read the post before replying to comments.
I read your post. Your point is not clear.
@Chana Siegel,
Indeed. Weaver’s posts at times need multiple layers of meforshim to mediate a proper comprehension of his shrimpy responses.