Slifkin, you clearly didn't understand what was taught about hishtadlus, which is why you are having difficulty understanding concepts that are pashut to five year olds. But that's ok, you will surely convince many chareidim that they are hypocrites for voting! I would go further and convince them they are hypocrites for going grocery shopping and using the bathroom!
Following your logic you're right .Why are you going to the grocery store?! After all everything is an "illusion". If you are on the right מדרגה it would be done for you! Certainly then we don't need an army or a large enough army(including 7,000 Chareidi soldiers)
I did not say it R. Dessler pzatzal said it. He was referring to G-d causing results not man. Man's actions causing results are an illusion. He didn't believe in G-,d acting and operating according to rules of Nature that regularly happen.Hence operating with holy people could produce results without proper effort.Hence no need to work too much or serve in the army.G-d would take care of everything just be holy and act according to the Torah.
You are asking a question on R' Dessler? How about you quote the exact lines where you are seeing this, including the context of the two preceding and two following paragraphs. Then we can see if it is so difficult.
My my, I'm so ashamed. You've really got us in a pickle here. I just wonder what exactly was it about these elections specifically that opened your eyes to our stupidity? I mean, we go the store to buy groceries and don't expect it to magically appear on our doorsteps. We lift up our hands and manually place morsels of food in our mouths. But that's all par for the course here; you don't understand our position, urgo it makes no sense.
For the adults in the room, our position is not that complex. You see, we have a mission in life, a kind of "deal" with God, where we do what He wants, and in turn, and He takes care of us. That's what bitachon is about. We follow Him even when it seems difficult. We'd follow Him into a desert even though that isn't exactly the best idea food wise, and he sends us Manna. Anything that is part of His service, we do with zerizus!
As it turns out, eating is important and we do that to sustain ourselves to maximize avodas Hashem. If we are weak and for there will be *less* avoda. Going to the army, otoh, will reduce our avoda and connection with God. So that's out until further notice. And watch this: the elections - which are serving to enable our mission - fit right in to this paradigm! Your can almost have guessed that this is something Chareidim *would* do! Not much of contradiction when phrased properly, eh?
When עם ישראל entered ארץ ישראל the Manna ended and דרך הטבע took over. פיקוח נפש and לא תעמוד על דם רעך now take over and serving in the Army is a great מצווה. Your logic is faulty. According to your approach no human action is needed but you continue on your חילול הה/ . What do you care if G-d forbid the State of Israel is destroyed and/ or millions of Jews are killed. You have your pet ridiculous theory and let everyone be damned.
Chill my friend. Or don't. I agree we need to do hishtadlus. I even thing the should be Chareidim in the army.
But for some reason you guys can't agree that the yeshivos are important. To a Chareidi, the yeshivos are the most important entity in klal yisroel. If you don't see the value we aren't going to get anywhere at all.
We can discuss why these yeshivos are indeed so important, but any other starting point is taking the eye off the ball and trying to win on a further discussion that we probably both agree to, when the real disagreement is about this.
K that's a great starting point! So should we just shut them down? Shouldn't we try other solutions first? Shouldn't we make sure it's absolutely necessary to do so before taking such a drastic measure? Better, how could we not do try other things first?
Part of the answer to this is if you appreciate the yeshivos a little bit or as much as we do
Let us be very clear. As we see from the Eretz Nehederet clip, they do think we are extremely, cartoonishly evil. They are literally no better than anti-semites. That's why there will never be any compromise with these "rationalists", but with level-headed people.
Another one confirming not going to the army has nothing to do with 'torah protects'. You have sort off conceded NS's point - of course the chareidim believe in hishtadlus like everyone else, other there claims that 'torah protects' re the army is just a soundbite and they don't want to die or have their ruchniyos disrupted.
Sure it is doing His will! But if that will be at the expense of an entire generation is Israeli Jews not knowing what torah and yiraas shamayim are really about, that's kinda a big deal to the Chareidi! Open up a mussar sefer and you'll see what connecting with God is. They're not something that we should be giving up.
I'm not sure why older, developed Chareidim can't join and at some point I think we are on the same page that the culture had seeing too far in that direction, but we can change they if we're going to lose sight of what were about. Change can only come if we can keep up our mission. (It may come anyways from haters but this blog at least pretends to be coming from jewish values and that is who I'm talking to.)
I do. He is just nuanced when he explains the claim that Torah is a protection. It is not some magic that you can say some Torah words and you have magic powers that can deflect bullets/rockets/ grenades etc.
Why can't Haredim do their service in the IDF? Dati'im do it. They also get qualified jobs and still keep Torah. Perhaps HaShem uses our forces to protect us? I don't want to try simply davening.
You are correct they probably shouldn't have stopped learning, I know most Yeshivas/Kollelim operated completely as usual . People just like to cherry pick the few that didnt.
Actually, it's not Zionists who produce these things, but tens of millions of non-Jews from all over the world, including Indians, Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Brazilians, Russians, and many more. Without them you would live like a caveman. Please express your heartfelt hakaras hatov to them.
Still, where is your hakaras hatov to all the Non-Zionists, Non-Zionists, Non-Zionists without whom you would be in an infinitely worse situation than you are now?
You guys like doing this. You make a rando point and when I don't answer and instead point out your deflection, which is what should be done in these kinds of situations, you say "you can't answer blah blah blah..." It's ridiculous because it's not even a particularly difficult question on my end, but you bring it up only to obfuscate the original point of the discussion, which is why'm calling you out in the first place. If you want to have this discussion here, we can, but don't pretend you are on topic and not playing a game of "gotcha!"
So human action relation to results is now illusion but it is I'm elation to going to the army even if it is to protect everyone.And it is because you decided it is part of the "deal" with G-d.The Rambam days Nature counts.G-d operates on and through Nature. You won't accomplish without the requisite effort and knowledge. There is no reference to any " illusion."Rabbi Dessler Za"tzal innovated this theory. He did not qualify it as you do with exceptions.
Corrected sorry. So human action in relation to results is an illusion but not for immediate necessary matters but for Army yes even if it is to protect everyone. This is so because of the "deal" with G-d. The Rambam days Nature counts.G-d operates on and through Nature. You won't accomplish anything without the requisite effort and knowledge. There is no mention of "illusion". Rabbi Dessler Za" Tzal innovated this theory.He did not qualify it as you do with your exceptions.
I believe that it takes serious action to achieve results. You ask for G-d's help.Your merits may help you and your sins may weaken or defeat you, but serious action you must take. There is no illusion ,that is, you accomplished it because you did it.That's how G-d runs the world.
How do you determine that eating is a maximization of avodah and army service isn't? And how do you determine that voting somehow maximizes avodah in the way army service doesn't?
That is the big question, and perhaps the only good one to be raised here. I'm probably on the same side as you in a lot of these issues.
As far as army service is concerned, you must admit that being in yeshiva during those formitive years are essential to the mission. Missing those years is missing the chance to learn what torah and avodas Hashem is about. But should more (weaker) people join later? Probably!
Eating is maximization because not eating has less net avoda. Exercising probably, for most people, same thing. But too much maintenance at the expense of the machine actually running, that would be detrimental. Closing the yeshivos is detrimental. I can give a basic overview, but many details can be disputed. We have to think of it as a business where the currency is avodas Hashem and some decisions aren't 100% clear I'd leave it to the executives of the business who are the most invested in the cause (AKA the gedolim)...
One thing for sure, if people are ending up like the rationalists here, we are not doing our job and we need to strengthen our position, not weaken it.
To me this line is extraordinarily disturbing and upsetting. What right does he have to uproot a mitzvah in the torah? How is this different than telling someone to eat pig? There is no Mitvah in the torah to vote. And even if there was, a Gadol should never encourage someone to sin further. To me this crosses a line. He made up his own torah. This is no longer Judaism.
This is actually very consistent with standard chareidi beliefs, who believe the continuity of Judaism is dependent on the chareidi community. So voting for the interests of chareidi yeshivos is equivalent to voting for Judaism.
To be clear, you believe that Rav Lando and his followers have radically different religious beliefs than you do in general? Or only in regard to whether voting = tefillin?
I have been in the Israeli Charedi system for quite a few decades, and I never heard that hishtadlus is optional - I am not sure where you got this idea from.
So a bunch of yeshiva bachurim take a hour to go vote once year and all of a sudden that is a disproof they don't have bitachon? You are far from logical here.
This is nothing. In one of his recent "paid" posts, the one for his little club of sycophants, a commenter expressed the wish that Charedim should be barred from holding public office, and NS replied back with a hearty "I wish." You will not find any more vile anti-semitism on the internet than right here.
Doesn't seem all that complicated. You are not likely to go OTD if you have a day outing with your fellow bochurim. You are likely to go OTD if you spend 3 years in an army literally designed - in the explicit words of of its designers - to be an engine of integration into secular culture. It doesn't matter how you dress up it up theologically because all theology is nonsense anyway.
The truth is that Charedim are just much better at psychology and sociology than DL. But then you don't have to be playing 5D chess when your competitor is playing checkers.
The king's heart is in Hashem's hand like the watercourses. He turns it wherever he desires. with Malbim elaborating: הגם שלב האדם הפרטי נתון ברשותו והבחירה בידו, לא כן לב המלך, אחר שבבחירותו תלוי אושר הכלל, ואם יבחר בדרך רע ישחית רבים ועצומים, לכן ליבו זה הכללי הוא ביד ה', והוא בענייני הכלל משולל הבחירה.
How about freeing charedim from army service, on condition that those not serving do not get to vote (because they are relying on God rather than hishtadlus). That would be self-consistent.
No, only people whose stated belief system implies that there is no point in voting shouldn't be able to vote.
It wouldn't be taking anything away from them because they already don't think a vote will accomplish anything. If anything, you're benefiting them by saving their time.
Yes it is, but more fundamentally its dumb and unworkable. If the Charedim can't engage in any hishtadlus on the lunatic theory that its "inconsistent" [as determined by their opponents] with their beliefs, then their opponents also can never pretend to have spiritual or religious ideals, being equally inconsistent. In theory both sides might agree to this - Charedim not voting, opponents promising never again to pretend to pray, refer to God, quote the Torah, etc - but who can enforce that?
Also, if we're so worried about precious "inconsistencies", we still have have the inconvenient little problem of hundreds of thousands of Israeli Arabs who also aren't drafted. The silence is deafening.
Practically speaking, this would not work because once you have eliminated half of the charedim from the electorate, the next government is sure to be more hostile and they'll reverse the law or find some other way of drafting them and who knows what else. It will be a temporary solution with horrible long-term consequences for charedim (and democracy in general).
According to Rav Brunner Dayan and Rosh Yeshiva in Safed there is no source for a blanket exception of one group of people from fighting in a Torah mandated war
Cuz the idea of people going through the yeshiva system is necessary for forging a deep connection with Hashem. Not sure if this is something you ever learned about because you weren't zoicheh to join the yeshiva system but that's not on me
That doesn't exempt somebody from their chiyuv of milchama. In his opinion, he should be doing everything possible to help the army, and he should not be doing anything else (e.g. Working in his museum or writing books). Joining the IDF isn't the only way to fight in this milchama.
Precisely such changes will have to be made if anyone is actually sincere about wanting charedim in the army [a doubtful proposition for the vast majority of the populace.] Similar compromises, in different areas, will have to be made with Israeli Arabs.
Are you suggesting only combat positions are important in any army? Better tell the chayalot they're not really that important after all!
Remember, also, we're talking about a *compromise.* The whole program of hesder was also a compromise. To put it otherwise, its an "accommodation." That's the way it is. Like I said, the army is useful red meat for the base to bash "the other", but when one actually contemplates what it would mean to bring in tens of thousands of charedim, followed inevitably by Israeli Arabs [which you and NS noticeably keep ignoring] - - very doubtful anyone really interested in taking the steps necessary to make it happen.
If 'brains go hard at 26", surely those precious years beforehand should be spent training Jews in Judiasm, and not in training them for 'running into fire'? The most important thing in Judaism is Torah, not army service.
Slifkin, you clearly didn't understand what was taught about hishtadlus, which is why you are having difficulty understanding concepts that are pashut to five year olds. But that's ok, you will surely convince many chareidim that they are hypocrites for voting! I would go further and convince them they are hypocrites for going grocery shopping and using the bathroom!
Following your logic you're right .Why are you going to the grocery store?! After all everything is an "illusion". If you are on the right מדרגה it would be done for you! Certainly then we don't need an army or a large enough army(including 7,000 Chareidi soldiers)
to protect us
If everything is an illusion, my going to the grocery store is also an illusion. The army is also an illusion. You're an illusion. I'm an illusion.
I did not say it R. Dessler pzatzal said it. He was referring to G-d causing results not man. Man's actions causing results are an illusion. He didn't believe in G-,d acting and operating according to rules of Nature that regularly happen.Hence operating with holy people could produce results without proper effort.Hence no need to work too much or serve in the army.G-d would take care of everything just be holy and act according to the Torah.
You are asking a question on R' Dessler? How about you quote the exact lines where you are seeing this, including the context of the two preceding and two following paragraphs. Then we can see if it is so difficult.
My my, I'm so ashamed. You've really got us in a pickle here. I just wonder what exactly was it about these elections specifically that opened your eyes to our stupidity? I mean, we go the store to buy groceries and don't expect it to magically appear on our doorsteps. We lift up our hands and manually place morsels of food in our mouths. But that's all par for the course here; you don't understand our position, urgo it makes no sense.
For the adults in the room, our position is not that complex. You see, we have a mission in life, a kind of "deal" with God, where we do what He wants, and in turn, and He takes care of us. That's what bitachon is about. We follow Him even when it seems difficult. We'd follow Him into a desert even though that isn't exactly the best idea food wise, and he sends us Manna. Anything that is part of His service, we do with zerizus!
As it turns out, eating is important and we do that to sustain ourselves to maximize avodas Hashem. If we are weak and for there will be *less* avoda. Going to the army, otoh, will reduce our avoda and connection with God. So that's out until further notice. And watch this: the elections - which are serving to enable our mission - fit right in to this paradigm! Your can almost have guessed that this is something Chareidim *would* do! Not much of contradiction when phrased properly, eh?
When עם ישראל entered ארץ ישראל the Manna ended and דרך הטבע took over. פיקוח נפש and לא תעמוד על דם רעך now take over and serving in the Army is a great מצווה. Your logic is faulty. According to your approach no human action is needed but you continue on your חילול הה/ . What do you care if G-d forbid the State of Israel is destroyed and/ or millions of Jews are killed. You have your pet ridiculous theory and let everyone be damned.
Chill my friend. Or don't. I agree we need to do hishtadlus. I even thing the should be Chareidim in the army.
But for some reason you guys can't agree that the yeshivos are important. To a Chareidi, the yeshivos are the most important entity in klal yisroel. If you don't see the value we aren't going to get anywhere at all.
We can discuss why these yeshivos are indeed so important, but any other starting point is taking the eye off the ball and trying to win on a further discussion that we probably both agree to, when the real disagreement is about this.
Of course yeshivot are extremely important!
K that's a great starting point! So should we just shut them down? Shouldn't we try other solutions first? Shouldn't we make sure it's absolutely necessary to do so before taking such a drastic measure? Better, how could we not do try other things first?
Part of the answer to this is if you appreciate the yeshivos a little bit or as much as we do
Do you not see how ridiculously evil and irrational the chareidim would have to be to believe what you think they do, its obviously not their belief.
What you are saying is just completely irrational.
Let us be very clear. As we see from the Eretz Nehederet clip, they do think we are extremely, cartoonishly evil. They are literally no better than anti-semites. That's why there will never be any compromise with these "rationalists", but with level-headed people.
Another one confirming not going to the army has nothing to do with 'torah protects'. You have sort off conceded NS's point - of course the chareidim believe in hishtadlus like everyone else, other there claims that 'torah protects' re the army is just a soundbite and they don't want to die or have their ruchniyos disrupted.
Torah protects is Him watching is while we do His will. So you're wrong about that.
And if this is rabbi doctor's point, we're square!
and helping fight to protect Jewish lives isn't "doing His will"? I just don't get it.
My son had a big dilemma about whether he should bring a Gemmara into Gaza. I'll tell you about it sometime
Sure it is doing His will! But if that will be at the expense of an entire generation is Israeli Jews not knowing what torah and yiraas shamayim are really about, that's kinda a big deal to the Chareidi! Open up a mussar sefer and you'll see what connecting with God is. They're not something that we should be giving up.
I'm not sure why older, developed Chareidim can't join and at some point I think we are on the same page that the culture had seeing too far in that direction, but we can change they if we're going to lose sight of what were about. Change can only come if we can keep up our mission. (It may come anyways from haters but this blog at least pretends to be coming from jewish values and that is who I'm talking to.)
I'd love to hear that story:)
So why doesn't He help you win elections while you do His will, learning torah all day and not going out from yeshivah canvassing?
Please set out the chiluk in clear bullet points.
There are many possibilities that only G-d knows when it occurs. G-,d has promised his Mercy as well as reward and
punishment,G-d forbid. HE guides human events also according to His Plans. Also צדיק ורע לו and רשע וטוב לו. Also He has a ברית אברהם ,יצחק ויעקב
No Rabbi ever claimed Torah protects and that is why charedim don't go to the army. It is a made up myth that R' Slifkin made up.
Clearly you don't follow the irrationalist modixosm blog....
I do. He is just nuanced when he explains the claim that Torah is a protection. It is not some magic that you can say some Torah words and you have magic powers that can deflect bullets/rockets/ grenades etc.
Why can't Haredim do their service in the IDF? Dati'im do it. They also get qualified jobs and still keep Torah. Perhaps HaShem uses our forces to protect us? I don't want to try simply davening.
What is with the fixation that the army is the only way to serve God? There are other ways of serving God even without going to the army.
It's not just about keeping Torah. It's about forging a relationship with God.
So Dati'im don't have a relationship with HaShem?????
Wow.
You can twist my words is you'd like. Or we can have an honest conversation here. You're choice
Eating is something that we want to minimize, except maybe on Shabbat (when the Rambam says we should eat to satiation).
Why don't Haredim say vote, but only "bein haSedarim".
Right about the eating. About the voting, cuz it won't get done if we do it in that small window or time.
I voted at 9pm last night.
Polls were open until 10.
And why should yeshiva guys stop learning to canvass for votes?
You are correct they probably shouldn't have stopped learning, I know most Yeshivas/Kollelim operated completely as usual . People just like to cherry pick the few that didnt.
Not sure what you're trying to say
"I mean, we go the store to buy groceries and don't expect it to magically appear on our doorsteps."
Who makes the food? Who imports food? Who grows the vegetables? Who gives you the money to buy it?
Zionists, Zionists, Zionists, Zionists.
By the way, it's spelled (and pronounced) "ergo."
Actually, it's not Zionists who produce these things, but tens of millions of non-Jews from all over the world, including Indians, Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Brazilians, Russians, and many more. Without them you would live like a caveman. Please express your heartfelt hakaras hatov to them.
Aren't you clever. And ignorant.
Still, where is your hakaras hatov to all the Non-Zionists, Non-Zionists, Non-Zionists without whom you would be in an infinitely worse situation than you are now?
Deflection. And no - people, people, people, people. .
About the ergo, thanks, I knew I got it wrong! 🤣
Deflection or not, you can't answer. Unless you're living fat and happy in the goooluuus.
You guys like doing this. You make a rando point and when I don't answer and instead point out your deflection, which is what should be done in these kinds of situations, you say "you can't answer blah blah blah..." It's ridiculous because it's not even a particularly difficult question on my end, but you bring it up only to obfuscate the original point of the discussion, which is why'm calling you out in the first place. If you want to have this discussion here, we can, but don't pretend you are on topic and not playing a game of "gotcha!"
Cheers brother.
So human action relation to results is now illusion but it is I'm elation to going to the army even if it is to protect everyone.And it is because you decided it is part of the "deal" with G-d.The Rambam days Nature counts.G-d operates on and through Nature. You won't accomplish without the requisite effort and knowledge. There is no reference to any " illusion."Rabbi Dessler Za"tzal innovated this theory. He did not qualify it as you do with exceptions.
Corrected sorry. So human action in relation to results is an illusion but not for immediate necessary matters but for Army yes even if it is to protect everyone. This is so because of the "deal" with G-d. The Rambam days Nature counts.G-d operates on and through Nature. You won't accomplish anything without the requisite effort and knowledge. There is no mention of "illusion". Rabbi Dessler Za" Tzal innovated this theory.He did not qualify it as you do with your exceptions.
I'm sorry I can't understand half of this comment. Can you be more clear?
I'm not being patronizing, I'm earnestly trying to understand what you're asking.
I believe that it takes serious action to achieve results. You ask for G-d's help.Your merits may help you and your sins may weaken or defeat you, but serious action you must take. There is no illusion ,that is, you accomplished it because you did it.That's how G-d runs the world.
How is sending mechina students to the army before they conclude their Torah studies "maximizing your service of G.od?"
It isn't
https://twitter.com/KnessetT/status/1752980313762931112
Can't access Twitter
How do you determine that eating is a maximization of avodah and army service isn't? And how do you determine that voting somehow maximizes avodah in the way army service doesn't?
That is the big question, and perhaps the only good one to be raised here. I'm probably on the same side as you in a lot of these issues.
As far as army service is concerned, you must admit that being in yeshiva during those formitive years are essential to the mission. Missing those years is missing the chance to learn what torah and avodas Hashem is about. But should more (weaker) people join later? Probably!
Eating is maximization because not eating has less net avoda. Exercising probably, for most people, same thing. But too much maintenance at the expense of the machine actually running, that would be detrimental. Closing the yeshivos is detrimental. I can give a basic overview, but many details can be disputed. We have to think of it as a business where the currency is avodas Hashem and some decisions aren't 100% clear I'd leave it to the executives of the business who are the most invested in the cause (AKA the gedolim)...
One thing for sure, if people are ending up like the rationalists here, we are not doing our job and we need to strengthen our position, not weaken it.
Thats why we have Gedolim.
You are spitting pure facts here. It will be interesting to see what krum sevoros the charedi apologists who come on here will concoct
Definitely spitting, but not anything pure.
I'm awaiting your krum sevoros, please don't disappoint
I mean, it's sort of like asking for *your* excuse for trying to convert Jews to Christianity. What's your krum sevara for that?
Ask a proper question like a mentch, and we can discuss things. Spit out slurs and slander, don't expect a proper response.
Here's mine!
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/goodbye-god-its-elections-31b/comment/50546092
Here you can watch Rav Landau, the current Chareidi Gadol Hador saying “Whoever doesn’t want to vote shouldn’t put on tefillin.”
https://vinnews.com/2024/02/27/watch-rav-dov-landau-urges-charedim-to-vote-compares-to-wearing-tefillin/
To me this line is extraordinarily disturbing and upsetting. What right does he have to uproot a mitzvah in the torah? How is this different than telling someone to eat pig? There is no Mitvah in the torah to vote. And even if there was, a Gadol should never encourage someone to sin further. To me this crosses a line. He made up his own torah. This is no longer Judaism.
You obviously don't understand hyperbole.
This too, correct.
This is actually very consistent with standard chareidi beliefs, who believe the continuity of Judaism is dependent on the chareidi community. So voting for the interests of chareidi yeshivos is equivalent to voting for Judaism.
To be clear, you believe that Rav Lando and his followers have radically different religious beliefs than you do in general? Or only in regard to whether voting = tefillin?
Why is the continuity of the charedi community dependent on the histadlus of voting? Why not just learn more torah?
Because they are trying to install a government that is friendly to the chareidi community.
What does the government matter? If it is of material benefit, then there are things of much greater material benefit that could be done.
I have been in the Israeli Charedi system for quite a few decades, and I never heard that hishtadlus is optional - I am not sure where you got this idea from.
If its inconsistent for Charedim to engage in hishtadlus, it is equally inconsistent for you to be talking about God.
That's right. Can't be a rationalist and talk about G-d, the chosen people, the Promised land. None of that is rational.
I find it all rational. Some would say it's apikorsus to call it irrational.
So a bunch of yeshiva bachurim take a hour to go vote once year and all of a sudden that is a disproof they don't have bitachon? You are far from logical here.
It's all about power and of course money
This is why people call anti- chareidism a microcosm of antisemitism.
Ridiculous comments like this.
This is nothing. In one of his recent "paid" posts, the one for his little club of sycophants, a commenter expressed the wish that Charedim should be barred from holding public office, and NS replied back with a hearty "I wish." You will not find any more vile anti-semitism on the internet than right here.
I get the same feeling of unjust hatred when reading this blog and al jazeera- not exaggerating.
Al Jazeera is tame in comparison.
Doesn't seem all that complicated. You are not likely to go OTD if you have a day outing with your fellow bochurim. You are likely to go OTD if you spend 3 years in an army literally designed - in the explicit words of of its designers - to be an engine of integration into secular culture. It doesn't matter how you dress up it up theologically because all theology is nonsense anyway.
The truth is that Charedim are just much better at psychology and sociology than DL. But then you don't have to be playing 5D chess when your competitor is playing checkers.
If anything there should be less hishtadlus when it comes to elections as משלי כ"א:א
פַּלְגֵי מַיִם לֶב מֶלֶךְ בְּיַד י"י עַל כׇּל אֲשֶׁר יַחְפֹּץ יַטֶּנּוּ.
The king's heart is in Hashem's hand like the watercourses. He turns it wherever he desires. with Malbim elaborating: הגם שלב האדם הפרטי נתון ברשותו והבחירה בידו, לא כן לב המלך, אחר שבבחירותו תלוי אושר הכלל, ואם יבחר בדרך רע ישחית רבים ועצומים, לכן ליבו זה הכללי הוא ביד ה', והוא בענייני הכלל משולל הבחירה.
But this is about CHOOSING the melech. The distinction is obvious.
How about freeing charedim from army service, on condition that those not serving do not get to vote (because they are relying on God rather than hishtadlus). That would be self-consistent.
This idea has come up before in comments on this blog. It's an interesting idea, but it wouldn't actually fly, because it's anti-democratic
No worse than depriving felons of the vote, as the US does.
That is such a one sided view of democracy. Everyone who disagrees with me shouldn't be able to vote. Wow!
No, only people whose stated belief system implies that there is no point in voting shouldn't be able to vote.
It wouldn't be taking anything away from them because they already don't think a vote will accomplish anything. If anything, you're benefiting them by saving their time.
I'm petrified that after the war, the push to get Chareidim to serve which will lead civil war.
They don't even join the IDF. They'd be defeated and they know it, B"H, so, no war.
If there is a civil war everyone looses.
Yes it is, but more fundamentally its dumb and unworkable. If the Charedim can't engage in any hishtadlus on the lunatic theory that its "inconsistent" [as determined by their opponents] with their beliefs, then their opponents also can never pretend to have spiritual or religious ideals, being equally inconsistent. In theory both sides might agree to this - Charedim not voting, opponents promising never again to pretend to pray, refer to God, quote the Torah, etc - but who can enforce that?
Also, if we're so worried about precious "inconsistencies", we still have have the inconvenient little problem of hundreds of thousands of Israeli Arabs who also aren't drafted. The silence is deafening.
"then their opponents also can never pretend to have spiritual or religious ideals"
Huh? You really think that hishtadlus and religion are incompatible?
Of course I dont thank that, that would be absurd. But NS does.
Practically speaking, this would not work because once you have eliminated half of the charedim from the electorate, the next government is sure to be more hostile and they'll reverse the law or find some other way of drafting them and who knows what else. It will be a temporary solution with horrible long-term consequences for charedim (and democracy in general).
What is problematic is that the Chareidi leadership modify its total refusal to any army service.
Is it really true that they are not going to visit the wounded even?
According to Rav Brunner Dayan and Rosh Yeshiva in Safed there is no source for a blanket exception of one group of people from fighting in a Torah mandated war
Why aren't you in the army, Nathan slifkin? Since you hold that this is a milchemes mitzva and no one is patur, why aren't you serving in the IDF?
The army doesn't take anyone (apart from physicians and dentists) past the age of twenty-six, for very good reasons.
They also don't take Chareidim who are learning in Yeshiva. For very good reasons.
Oh? Name one.
Because a strong yeshiva system is way more important for the continuation of Judaism than the State of Israel.
Cuz the idea of people going through the yeshiva system is necessary for forging a deep connection with Hashem. Not sure if this is something you ever learned about because you weren't zoicheh to join the yeshiva system but that's not on me
Maybe they should
I'm sure you know better than they.
If we are using arguments from authority, then I listen to the Gedolim. End of discussion.
That doesn't exempt somebody from their chiyuv of milchama. In his opinion, he should be doing everything possible to help the army, and he should not be doing anything else (e.g. Working in his museum or writing books). Joining the IDF isn't the only way to fight in this milchama.
So why isn't he doing any of these things?
You...don't live in Israel, do you?
I do.
Precisely such changes will have to be made if anyone is actually sincere about wanting charedim in the army [a doubtful proposition for the vast majority of the populace.] Similar compromises, in different areas, will have to be made with Israeli Arabs.
What changes? Brains get hard at the age of twenty-six, after which you can't train someone to go against natural instincts and run into fire.
Are you suggesting only combat positions are important in any army? Better tell the chayalot they're not really that important after all!
Remember, also, we're talking about a *compromise.* The whole program of hesder was also a compromise. To put it otherwise, its an "accommodation." That's the way it is. Like I said, the army is useful red meat for the base to bash "the other", but when one actually contemplates what it would mean to bring in tens of thousands of charedim, followed inevitably by Israeli Arabs [which you and NS noticeably keep ignoring] - - very doubtful anyone really interested in taking the steps necessary to make it happen.
If 'brains go hard at 26", surely those precious years beforehand should be spent training Jews in Judiasm, and not in training them for 'running into fire'? The most important thing in Judaism is Torah, not army service.
It's easy to point fingers.
Yes, it's easy to point at hypocrisy.
If that a dig?
Nope
Nope
Rav Slifkin,
I’ve seen a few discussions about Hishtadlus but the various debaters have slightly different definitions of Hishtadlus.
Could you give us your definition.