My my, I'm so ashamed. You've really got us in a pickle here. I just wonder what exactly was it about these elections specifically that opened your eyes to our stupidity? I mean, we go the store to buy groceries and don't expect it to magically appear on our doorsteps. We lift up our hands and manually place morsels of food in our mouths. But that's all par for the course here; you don't understand our position, urgo it makes no sense.
For the adults in the room, our position is not that complex. You see, we have a mission in life, a kind of "deal" with God, where we do what He wants, and in turn, and He takes care of us. That's what bitachon is about. We follow Him even when it seems difficult. We'd follow Him into a desert even though that isn't exactly the best idea food wise, and he sends us Manna. Anything that is part of His service, we do with zerizus!
As it turns out, eating is important and we do that to sustain ourselves to maximize avodas Hashem. If we are weak and for there will be *less* avoda. Going to the army, otoh, will reduce our avoda and connection with God. So that's out until further notice. And watch this: the elections - which are serving to enable our mission - fit right in to this paradigm! Your can almost have guessed that this is something Chareidim *would* do! Not much of contradiction when phrased properly, eh?
Slifkin, you clearly didn't understand what was taught about hishtadlus, which is why you are having difficulty understanding concepts that are pashut to five year olds. But that's ok, you will surely convince many chareidim that they are hypocrites for voting! I would go further and convince them they are hypocrites for going grocery shopping and using the bathroom!
To me this line is extraordinarily disturbing and upsetting. What right does he have to uproot a mitzvah in the torah? How is this different than telling someone to eat pig? There is no Mitvah in the torah to vote. And even if there was, a Gadol should never encourage someone to sin further. To me this crosses a line. He made up his own torah. This is no longer Judaism.
I have been in the Israeli Charedi system for quite a few decades, and I never heard that hishtadlus is optional - I am not sure where you got this idea from.
So a bunch of yeshiva bachurim take a hour to go vote once year and all of a sudden that is a disproof they don't have bitachon? You are far from logical here.
Doesn't seem all that complicated. You are not likely to go OTD if you have a day outing with your fellow bochurim. You are likely to go OTD if you spend 3 years in an army literally designed - in the explicit words of of its designers - to be an engine of integration into secular culture. It doesn't matter how you dress up it up theologically because all theology is nonsense anyway.
The truth is that Charedim are just much better at psychology and sociology than DL. But then you don't have to be playing 5D chess when your competitor is playing checkers.
The king's heart is in Hashem's hand like the watercourses. He turns it wherever he desires. with Malbim elaborating: הגם שלב האדם הפרטי נתון ברשותו והבחירה בידו, לא כן לב המלך, אחר שבבחירותו תלוי אושר הכלל, ואם יבחר בדרך רע ישחית רבים ועצומים, לכן ליבו זה הכללי הוא ביד ה', והוא בענייני הכלל משולל הבחירה.
How about freeing charedim from army service, on condition that those not serving do not get to vote (because they are relying on God rather than hishtadlus). That would be self-consistent.
According to Rav Brunner Dayan and Rosh Yeshiva in Safed there is no source for a blanket exception of one group of people from fighting in a Torah mandated war
"I wish people would just make up their minds and be consistent. Either you believe that hishtadlus is real - in which case, give your kids the education that they need to earn a living. Or, or decide that it's not - in which case, don't bother voting, just learn Torah!"
"The circumstances of this responsum, written back in 2014, is one of the Gaza conflicts. The questioner is dealing with the extremely difficult situation of waking his children when the siren sounds and evacuating them to a safe room. This causes immense hardship for the children and families. And the questioner is asking whether he can just let them continue to sleep in their rooms.
...
... incredibly, Rav Zilberstein addresses the question solely from a standpoint of hishtadlus. He begins by establishing that it is God Who protects Israel, though we are obligated to perform hishtadlus, which includes a halachic requirement to act safely. However, such obligations are only incumbent upon adults, since only adults are obligated in mitzvos. And so there is no halachic reason to wake children, since they are exempt from hishtadlus!
...
This is probably one of the most shocking things that I have ever seen, but it's really only the inevitable consequence of the Desslerian approach. There is no independent reality of rockets. There are only spiritual obligations, the neglect of which can lead one to be punished, possibly in the form of rockets. And since a child has no such obligations, he does not need to do anything, and the threat of rockets is meaningless."
My my, I'm so ashamed. You've really got us in a pickle here. I just wonder what exactly was it about these elections specifically that opened your eyes to our stupidity? I mean, we go the store to buy groceries and don't expect it to magically appear on our doorsteps. We lift up our hands and manually place morsels of food in our mouths. But that's all par for the course here; you don't understand our position, urgo it makes no sense.
For the adults in the room, our position is not that complex. You see, we have a mission in life, a kind of "deal" with God, where we do what He wants, and in turn, and He takes care of us. That's what bitachon is about. We follow Him even when it seems difficult. We'd follow Him into a desert even though that isn't exactly the best idea food wise, and he sends us Manna. Anything that is part of His service, we do with zerizus!
As it turns out, eating is important and we do that to sustain ourselves to maximize avodas Hashem. If we are weak and for there will be *less* avoda. Going to the army, otoh, will reduce our avoda and connection with God. So that's out until further notice. And watch this: the elections - which are serving to enable our mission - fit right in to this paradigm! Your can almost have guessed that this is something Chareidim *would* do! Not much of contradiction when phrased properly, eh?
Slifkin, you clearly didn't understand what was taught about hishtadlus, which is why you are having difficulty understanding concepts that are pashut to five year olds. But that's ok, you will surely convince many chareidim that they are hypocrites for voting! I would go further and convince them they are hypocrites for going grocery shopping and using the bathroom!
You are spitting pure facts here. It will be interesting to see what krum sevoros the charedi apologists who come on here will concoct
Here you can watch Rav Landau, the current Chareidi Gadol Hador saying “Whoever doesn’t want to vote shouldn’t put on tefillin.”
https://vinnews.com/2024/02/27/watch-rav-dov-landau-urges-charedim-to-vote-compares-to-wearing-tefillin/
To me this line is extraordinarily disturbing and upsetting. What right does he have to uproot a mitzvah in the torah? How is this different than telling someone to eat pig? There is no Mitvah in the torah to vote. And even if there was, a Gadol should never encourage someone to sin further. To me this crosses a line. He made up his own torah. This is no longer Judaism.
I have been in the Israeli Charedi system for quite a few decades, and I never heard that hishtadlus is optional - I am not sure where you got this idea from.
If its inconsistent for Charedim to engage in hishtadlus, it is equally inconsistent for you to be talking about God.
So a bunch of yeshiva bachurim take a hour to go vote once year and all of a sudden that is a disproof they don't have bitachon? You are far from logical here.
It's all about power and of course money
Doesn't seem all that complicated. You are not likely to go OTD if you have a day outing with your fellow bochurim. You are likely to go OTD if you spend 3 years in an army literally designed - in the explicit words of of its designers - to be an engine of integration into secular culture. It doesn't matter how you dress up it up theologically because all theology is nonsense anyway.
The truth is that Charedim are just much better at psychology and sociology than DL. But then you don't have to be playing 5D chess when your competitor is playing checkers.
If anything there should be less hishtadlus when it comes to elections as משלי כ"א:א
פַּלְגֵי מַיִם לֶב מֶלֶךְ בְּיַד י"י עַל כׇּל אֲשֶׁר יַחְפֹּץ יַטֶּנּוּ.
The king's heart is in Hashem's hand like the watercourses. He turns it wherever he desires. with Malbim elaborating: הגם שלב האדם הפרטי נתון ברשותו והבחירה בידו, לא כן לב המלך, אחר שבבחירותו תלוי אושר הכלל, ואם יבחר בדרך רע ישחית רבים ועצומים, לכן ליבו זה הכללי הוא ביד ה', והוא בענייני הכלל משולל הבחירה.
How about freeing charedim from army service, on condition that those not serving do not get to vote (because they are relying on God rather than hishtadlus). That would be self-consistent.
What is problematic is that the Chareidi leadership modify its total refusal to any army service.
Is it really true that they are not going to visit the wounded even?
According to Rav Brunner Dayan and Rosh Yeshiva in Safed there is no source for a blanket exception of one group of people from fighting in a Torah mandated war
"I wish people would just make up their minds and be consistent. Either you believe that hishtadlus is real - in which case, give your kids the education that they need to earn a living. Or, or decide that it's not - in which case, don't bother voting, just learn Torah!"
I wish you would at least be consistent in your accusations regarding alleged charedi inconsistency. Here's what you wrote here: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-denial-of-physical-reality-is-from
"The circumstances of this responsum, written back in 2014, is one of the Gaza conflicts. The questioner is dealing with the extremely difficult situation of waking his children when the siren sounds and evacuating them to a safe room. This causes immense hardship for the children and families. And the questioner is asking whether he can just let them continue to sleep in their rooms.
...
... incredibly, Rav Zilberstein addresses the question solely from a standpoint of hishtadlus. He begins by establishing that it is God Who protects Israel, though we are obligated to perform hishtadlus, which includes a halachic requirement to act safely. However, such obligations are only incumbent upon adults, since only adults are obligated in mitzvos. And so there is no halachic reason to wake children, since they are exempt from hishtadlus!
...
This is probably one of the most shocking things that I have ever seen, but it's really only the inevitable consequence of the Desslerian approach. There is no independent reality of rockets. There are only spiritual obligations, the neglect of which can lead one to be punished, possibly in the form of rockets. And since a child has no such obligations, he does not need to do anything, and the threat of rockets is meaningless."
Either you believe that they don't really believe what they claim to believe, or you believe that they *do* believe it, and it's getting them killed. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/who-caused-death-by-daas-torah
=====
In unrelated news, most Israelis apparently don't *really* believe in 'demokratiya.' https://www.timesofisrael.com/voter-turnout-suffers-as-many-stay-home-for-municipal-elections-amid-gaza-war/ But they do like shopping. https://www.timesofisrael.com/though-voter-turnout-low-israelis-flock-to-malls-on-municipal-election-holiday/
Why aren't you in the army, Nathan slifkin? Since you hold that this is a milchemes mitzva and no one is patur, why aren't you serving in the IDF?