Slifkin, you clearly didn't understand what was taught about hishtadlus, which is why you are having difficulty understanding concepts that are pashut to five year olds. But that's ok, you will surely convince many chareidim that they are hypocrites for voting! I would go further and convince them they are hypocrites for going grocery shopping and using the bathroom!
Following your logic you're right .Why are you going to the grocery store?! After all everything is an "illusion". If you are on the right מדרגה it would be done for you! Certainly then we don't need an army or a large enough army(including 7,000 Chareidi soldiers)
I did not say it R. Dessler pzatzal said it. He was referring to G-d causing results not man. Man's actions causing results are an illusion. He didn't believe in G-,d acting and operating according to rules of Nature that regularly happen.Hence operating with holy people could produce results without proper effort.Hence no need to work too much or serve in the army.G-d would take care of everything just be holy and act according to the Torah.
You are asking a question on R' Dessler? How about you quote the exact lines where you are seeing this, including the context of the two preceding and two following paragraphs. Then we can see if it is so difficult.
My my, I'm so ashamed. You've really got us in a pickle here. I just wonder what exactly was it about these elections specifically that opened your eyes to our stupidity? I mean, we go the store to buy groceries and don't expect it to magically appear on our doorsteps. We lift up our hands and manually place morsels of food in our mouths. But that's all par for the course here; you don't understand our position, urgo it makes no sense.
For the adults in the room, our position is not that complex. You see, we have a mission in life, a kind of "deal" with God, where we do what He wants, and in turn, and He takes care of us. That's what bitachon is about. We follow Him even when it seems difficult. We'd follow Him into a desert even though that isn't exactly the best idea food wise, and he sends us Manna. Anything that is part of His service, we do with zerizus!
As it turns out, eating is important and we do that to sustain ourselves to maximize avodas Hashem. If we are weak and for there will be *less* avoda. Going to the army, otoh, will reduce our avoda and connection with God. So that's out until further notice. And watch this: the elections - which are serving to enable our mission - fit right in to this paradigm! Your can almost have guessed that this is something Chareidim *would* do! Not much of contradiction when phrased properly, eh?
When עם ישראל entered ארץ ישראל the Manna ended and דרך הטבע took over. פיקוח נפש and לא תעמוד על דם רעך now take over and serving in the Army is a great מצווה. Your logic is faulty. According to your approach no human action is needed but you continue on your חילול הה/ . What do you care if G-d forbid the State of Israel is destroyed and/ or millions of Jews are killed. You have your pet ridiculous theory and let everyone be damned.
Chill my friend. Or don't. I agree we need to do hishtadlus. I even thing the should be Chareidim in the army.
But for some reason you guys can't agree that the yeshivos are important. To a Chareidi, the yeshivos are the most important entity in klal yisroel. If you don't see the value we aren't going to get anywhere at all.
We can discuss why these yeshivos are indeed so important, but any other starting point is taking the eye off the ball and trying to win on a further discussion that we probably both agree to, when the real disagreement is about this.
K that's a great starting point! So should we just shut them down? Shouldn't we try other solutions first? Shouldn't we make sure it's absolutely necessary to do so before taking such a drastic measure? Better, how could we not do try other things first?
Part of the answer to this is if you appreciate the yeshivos a little bit or as much as we do
Excuse me. You don't have a monopoly on "learning", yeshivot etc..
We believe in action not "vague hishtadlit". We believe in the overiding duty to join Tzahal. פיקוח נפש and the duty
to protect your community is primary. I suggest a creative Hesder for Chareidim.
You can have different courses of study and army service. More learning for those expected to dedicate their life to learning,
teaching, Also I believe in a. course of study and army service with more emphasis on army service for those who will end their learning and go to work.
I believe this accords more with reality and also provides for learning. Please spare me me esoteric created theories that believe that army service is unecessary.
Let us be very clear. As we see from the Eretz Nehederet clip, they do think we are extremely, cartoonishly evil. They are literally no better than anti-semites. That's why there will never be any compromise with these "rationalists", but with level-headed people.
Another one confirming not going to the army has nothing to do with 'torah protects'. You have sort off conceded NS's point - of course the chareidim believe in hishtadlus like everyone else, other there claims that 'torah protects' re the army is just a soundbite and they don't want to die or have their ruchniyos disrupted.
Sure it is doing His will! But if that will be at the expense of an entire generation is Israeli Jews not knowing what torah and yiraas shamayim are really about, that's kinda a big deal to the Chareidi! Open up a mussar sefer and you'll see what connecting with God is. They're not something that we should be giving up.
I'm not sure why older, developed Chareidim can't join and at some point I think we are on the same page that the culture had seeing too far in that direction, but we can change they if we're going to lose sight of what were about. Change can only come if we can keep up our mission. (It may come anyways from haters but this blog at least pretends to be coming from jewish values and that is who I'm talking to.)
I do. He is just nuanced when he explains the claim that Torah is a protection. It is not some magic that you can say some Torah words and you have magic powers that can deflect bullets/rockets/ grenades etc.
Why can't Haredim do their service in the IDF? Dati'im do it. They also get qualified jobs and still keep Torah. Perhaps HaShem uses our forces to protect us? I don't want to try simply davening.
Please. I'm not ducking out, and you never asked a question. You attacked. Here's what happened: you asked why Chareidim can't do their service in the IDF, and I responded that it's about forging a relationship, which cannot be done outside of the BM. You took that to mean that Datiim can't have ANY relationship with Hashem as some sort of "gotcha!" like I'm out of my mind. But it's actually an easy answer for me, and you can refer to my comment below: they cannot POSSIBLY have the same relationship with Hashem as someone can in the BM. It's just a fact of how things work. You can read the Rambam who describes that he would love to live in a cave in the desert and just focus on אהבה ויראה. This does not make them worse people, but it does make them not able to forge the same level of relationship. As per how these things work.
But thank you for clarifying anyway, as militant as you are trying to be.
You are correct they probably shouldn't have stopped learning, I know most Yeshivas/Kollelim operated completely as usual . People just like to cherry pick the few that didnt.
The yeshivot are putting too much hishtadlut into elections. If you accept that voting is acceptable (and many Haredim dispute this), it does not follow that you shut down learning for the entire day.
Again, if it is important, we stop learning to do things that are important. I'm not sure why you decided that an hour or two is okay, a whole day not, based on some projections and stats in your mind. It's truly not so hard to hear that Chareidim voting is the hishtadlus we need to protect hundreds of days of learning in the future and if we need a whole day on this, that's not strange or anything.
Actually, it's not Zionists who produce these things, but tens of millions of non-Jews from all over the world, including Indians, Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Brazilians, Russians, and many more. Without them you would live like a caveman. Please express your heartfelt hakaras hatov to them.
Still, where is your hakaras hatov to all the Non-Zionists, Non-Zionists, Non-Zionists without whom you would be in an infinitely worse situation than you are now?
You guys like doing this. You make a rando point and when I don't answer and instead point out your deflection, which is what should be done in these kinds of situations, you say "you can't answer blah blah blah..." It's ridiculous because it's not even a particularly difficult question on my end, but you bring it up only to obfuscate the original point of the discussion, which is why'm calling you out in the first place. If you want to have this discussion here, we can, but don't pretend you are on topic and not playing a game of "gotcha!"
So human action relation to results is now illusion but it is I'm elation to going to the army even if it is to protect everyone.And it is because you decided it is part of the "deal" with G-d.The Rambam days Nature counts.G-d operates on and through Nature. You won't accomplish without the requisite effort and knowledge. There is no reference to any " illusion."Rabbi Dessler Za"tzal innovated this theory. He did not qualify it as you do with exceptions.
Corrected sorry. So human action in relation to results is an illusion but not for immediate necessary matters but for Army yes even if it is to protect everyone. This is so because of the "deal" with G-d. The Rambam days Nature counts.G-d operates on and through Nature. You won't accomplish anything without the requisite effort and knowledge. There is no mention of "illusion". Rabbi Dessler Za" Tzal innovated this theory.He did not qualify it as you do with your exceptions.
I believe that it takes serious action to achieve results. You ask for G-d's help.Your merits may help you and your sins may weaken or defeat you, but serious action you must take. There is no illusion ,that is, you accomplished it because you did it.That's how G-d runs the world.
You're certainly correct in general. The question here is what is considered serious action and what isn't. Remember, it isn't at all just about numbers (see RSRH beginning of ki setzei) or might. As long as we are making a reasonable effort, if we are doing God's will, He will take care of us. I find it hard to say that we are not making a reasonable effort. The IDF is very powerful. The fact that it could be even stronger is not a taina. And I find it hard to say that we are doing God's will properly and so we need to strengthen that as well. Closing the yeshivos will have a super detrimental affect on avodas Hashem, while adding numbers isn't quite so simple.
How do you determine that eating is a maximization of avodah and army service isn't? And how do you determine that voting somehow maximizes avodah in the way army service doesn't?
That is the big question, and perhaps the only good one to be raised here. I'm probably on the same side as you in a lot of these issues.
As far as army service is concerned, you must admit that being in yeshiva during those formitive years are essential to the mission. Missing those years is missing the chance to learn what torah and avodas Hashem is about. But should more (weaker) people join later? Probably!
Eating is maximization because not eating has less net avoda. Exercising probably, for most people, same thing. But too much maintenance at the expense of the machine actually running, that would be detrimental. Closing the yeshivos is detrimental. I can give a basic overview, but many details can be disputed. We have to think of it as a business where the currency is avodas Hashem and some decisions aren't 100% clear I'd leave it to the executives of the business who are the most invested in the cause (AKA the gedolim)...
One thing for sure, if people are ending up like the rationalists here, we are not doing our job and we need to strengthen our position, not weaken it.
To me this line is extraordinarily disturbing and upsetting. What right does he have to uproot a mitzvah in the torah? How is this different than telling someone to eat pig? There is no Mitvah in the torah to vote. And even if there was, a Gadol should never encourage someone to sin further. To me this crosses a line. He made up his own torah. This is no longer Judaism.
This is actually very consistent with standard chareidi beliefs, who believe the continuity of Judaism is dependent on the chareidi community. So voting for the interests of chareidi yeshivos is equivalent to voting for Judaism.
To be clear, you believe that Rav Lando and his followers have radically different religious beliefs than you do in general? Or only in regard to whether voting = tefillin?
The government has a significant effect on chareidi interests. For example, if they would pass a law that all yeshiva bochurim enlist in the army or go to jail, then this would have a detrimental effect on yeshivos.
Well, it would have a detrimental effect on the few people who benefit from the running of some yeshivot. Most charedim would not be affected, and of course there are hundreds of yeshivot whose students serve in the army.
I have been in the Israeli Charedi system for quite a few decades, and I never heard that hishtadlus is optional - I am not sure where you got this idea from.
So a bunch of yeshiva bachurim take a hour to go vote once year and all of a sudden that is a disproof they don't have bitachon? You are far from logical here.
This is nothing. In one of his recent "paid" posts, the one for his little club of sycophants, a commenter expressed the wish that Charedim should be barred from holding public office, and NS replied back with a hearty "I wish." You will not find any more vile anti-semitism on the internet than right here.
Doesn't seem all that complicated. You are not likely to go OTD if you have a day outing with your fellow bochurim. You are likely to go OTD if you spend 3 years in an army literally designed - in the explicit words of of its designers - to be an engine of integration into secular culture. It doesn't matter how you dress up it up theologically because all theology is nonsense anyway.
The truth is that Charedim are just much better at psychology and sociology than DL. But then you don't have to be playing 5D chess when your competitor is playing checkers.
The king's heart is in Hashem's hand like the watercourses. He turns it wherever he desires. with Malbim elaborating: הגם שלב האדם הפרטי נתון ברשותו והבחירה בידו, לא כן לב המלך, אחר שבבחירותו תלוי אושר הכלל, ואם יבחר בדרך רע ישחית רבים ועצומים, לכן ליבו זה הכללי הוא ביד ה', והוא בענייני הכלל משולל הבחירה.
How about freeing charedim from army service, on condition that those not serving do not get to vote (because they are relying on God rather than hishtadlus). That would be self-consistent.
No, only people whose stated belief system implies that there is no point in voting shouldn't be able to vote.
It wouldn't be taking anything away from them because they already don't think a vote will accomplish anything. If anything, you're benefiting them by saving their time.
Yes it is, but more fundamentally its dumb and unworkable. If the Charedim can't engage in any hishtadlus on the lunatic theory that its "inconsistent" [as determined by their opponents] with their beliefs, then their opponents also can never pretend to have spiritual or religious ideals, being equally inconsistent. In theory both sides might agree to this - Charedim not voting, opponents promising never again to pretend to pray, refer to God, quote the Torah, etc - but who can enforce that?
Also, if we're so worried about precious "inconsistencies", we still have have the inconvenient little problem of hundreds of thousands of Israeli Arabs who also aren't drafted. The silence is deafening.
Mark - I dont think you're understanding his post. NS claims that b/c Charedim believe in divine providence, it is therefore hypocritical of them to spend effort on elections, for they should just sit back and let God do the work. Perforce, he DOES believe religion and hishtadlus are incompatible. (Dont ask me to explain such naarishkeit, i'm not his PR guy.)
Practically speaking, this would not work because once you have eliminated half of the charedim from the electorate, the next government is sure to be more hostile and they'll reverse the law or find some other way of drafting them and who knows what else. It will be a temporary solution with horrible long-term consequences for charedim (and democracy in general).
According to Rav Brunner Dayan and Rosh Yeshiva in Safed there is no source for a blanket exception of one group of people from fighting in a Torah mandated war
"I wish people would just make up their minds and be consistent. Either you believe that hishtadlus is real - in which case, give your kids the education that they need to earn a living. Or, or decide that it's not - in which case, don't bother voting, just learn Torah!"
"The circumstances of this responsum, written back in 2014, is one of the Gaza conflicts. The questioner is dealing with the extremely difficult situation of waking his children when the siren sounds and evacuating them to a safe room. This causes immense hardship for the children and families. And the questioner is asking whether he can just let them continue to sleep in their rooms.
...
... incredibly, Rav Zilberstein addresses the question solely from a standpoint of hishtadlus. He begins by establishing that it is God Who protects Israel, though we are obligated to perform hishtadlus, which includes a halachic requirement to act safely. However, such obligations are only incumbent upon adults, since only adults are obligated in mitzvos. And so there is no halachic reason to wake children, since they are exempt from hishtadlus!
...
This is probably one of the most shocking things that I have ever seen, but it's really only the inevitable consequence of the Desslerian approach. There is no independent reality of rockets. There are only spiritual obligations, the neglect of which can lead one to be punished, possibly in the form of rockets. And since a child has no such obligations, he does not need to do anything, and the threat of rockets is meaningless."
I suppose that's how Judaism managed to survive almost 4,000 years without a yeshiva system. And then, boom, there was a yeshiva system, and, boom, there was a Holocaust.
Cuz the idea of people going through the yeshiva system is necessary for forging a deep connection with Hashem. Not sure if this is something you ever learned about because you weren't zoicheh to join the yeshiva system but that's not on me
Didn't say that. At all. (Which is why we need teshuva!) But whatever people do have deep connections, for the most part, it comes from the yeshiva system, the only places which champion those messages
I learned in yeshiva for many years, thankyouverymuch.
You are aware that yeshivot didn't exist before 1800, right? That the "yeshiva system" you speak of didn't exist before 1980? And that many great gedolim never went to yeshiva, and certainly not through the "yeshiva system"? Did none of them have a "deep connection with Hashem"?
Do only charedi Israeli men raised under this new system have a "deep connection to Hashem"? Do all of them? Do only they get to? What about women? Sephardim? Amharatzim, all of them?
"You are aware that yeshivot didn't exist before 1800, right? "
Wrong. Gross ignorance of the highest order. And of course, the Haskalah changed everything- for the worse. A strong yeshiva system is more necessary than it ever was.
'This takes years of growth and training, and not everyone inside puts in the proper effort to "get it" (and so we find some who think they were a part of our culture when they really never were)."
That doesn't exempt somebody from their chiyuv of milchama. In his opinion, he should be doing everything possible to help the army, and he should not be doing anything else (e.g. Working in his museum or writing books). Joining the IDF isn't the only way to fight in this milchama.
Precisely such changes will have to be made if anyone is actually sincere about wanting charedim in the army [a doubtful proposition for the vast majority of the populace.] Similar compromises, in different areas, will have to be made with Israeli Arabs.
Are you suggesting only combat positions are important in any army? Better tell the chayalot they're not really that important after all!
Remember, also, we're talking about a *compromise.* The whole program of hesder was also a compromise. To put it otherwise, its an "accommodation." That's the way it is. Like I said, the army is useful red meat for the base to bash "the other", but when one actually contemplates what it would mean to bring in tens of thousands of charedim, followed inevitably by Israeli Arabs [which you and NS noticeably keep ignoring] - - very doubtful anyone really interested in taking the steps necessary to make it happen.
I don't disagree with you. And I understand the point of younger drafting making for better soldiers. Still and all, there needs to be compromise, if it is to happens. (And I'm not saying it should or that the Charedim would agree; I'm just saying proponents need to be a little more realistic.)
If 'brains go hard at 26", surely those precious years beforehand should be spent training Jews in Judiasm, and not in training them for 'running into fire'? The most important thing in Judaism is Torah, not army service.
Brains going hard has certain implications. It has nothing to do with training Jews or learning, it has to do with following orders and going against instincts.
By the way, in Eastern Europe virtually everyone stopped learning at the age of ten. They did OK. And here you have eight more years than that!
So if joining the IDF has nothing to do with brains and is just about following orders, why can't 30 year old men do it?
And as for your Eastern European point, the system in Eastern Europe was not the ideal Torah system due to widespread poverty and ignorance of the lower class, and therefore it was necessary for people to stop learning in order to support their families.
However, when poverty wasn't an issue, the Jews were expected to study Torah (see the Chassid Yaavetz, the Spanish Rishon, who blamed the cause of the inquisition on the Spanish Jews who had the ability to study Torah but instead studied secular subjects).
Nowadays, the system has allowed Jews to study Torah. So Jews should study Torah.
Slifkin, you clearly didn't understand what was taught about hishtadlus, which is why you are having difficulty understanding concepts that are pashut to five year olds. But that's ok, you will surely convince many chareidim that they are hypocrites for voting! I would go further and convince them they are hypocrites for going grocery shopping and using the bathroom!
Following your logic you're right .Why are you going to the grocery store?! After all everything is an "illusion". If you are on the right מדרגה it would be done for you! Certainly then we don't need an army or a large enough army(including 7,000 Chareidi soldiers)
to protect us
If everything is an illusion, my going to the grocery store is also an illusion. The army is also an illusion. You're an illusion. I'm an illusion.
I did not say it R. Dessler pzatzal said it. He was referring to G-d causing results not man. Man's actions causing results are an illusion. He didn't believe in G-,d acting and operating according to rules of Nature that regularly happen.Hence operating with holy people could produce results without proper effort.Hence no need to work too much or serve in the army.G-d would take care of everything just be holy and act according to the Torah.
You are asking a question on R' Dessler? How about you quote the exact lines where you are seeing this, including the context of the two preceding and two following paragraphs. Then we can see if it is so difficult.
My my, I'm so ashamed. You've really got us in a pickle here. I just wonder what exactly was it about these elections specifically that opened your eyes to our stupidity? I mean, we go the store to buy groceries and don't expect it to magically appear on our doorsteps. We lift up our hands and manually place morsels of food in our mouths. But that's all par for the course here; you don't understand our position, urgo it makes no sense.
For the adults in the room, our position is not that complex. You see, we have a mission in life, a kind of "deal" with God, where we do what He wants, and in turn, and He takes care of us. That's what bitachon is about. We follow Him even when it seems difficult. We'd follow Him into a desert even though that isn't exactly the best idea food wise, and he sends us Manna. Anything that is part of His service, we do with zerizus!
As it turns out, eating is important and we do that to sustain ourselves to maximize avodas Hashem. If we are weak and for there will be *less* avoda. Going to the army, otoh, will reduce our avoda and connection with God. So that's out until further notice. And watch this: the elections - which are serving to enable our mission - fit right in to this paradigm! Your can almost have guessed that this is something Chareidim *would* do! Not much of contradiction when phrased properly, eh?
When עם ישראל entered ארץ ישראל the Manna ended and דרך הטבע took over. פיקוח נפש and לא תעמוד על דם רעך now take over and serving in the Army is a great מצווה. Your logic is faulty. According to your approach no human action is needed but you continue on your חילול הה/ . What do you care if G-d forbid the State of Israel is destroyed and/ or millions of Jews are killed. You have your pet ridiculous theory and let everyone be damned.
Chill my friend. Or don't. I agree we need to do hishtadlus. I even thing the should be Chareidim in the army.
But for some reason you guys can't agree that the yeshivos are important. To a Chareidi, the yeshivos are the most important entity in klal yisroel. If you don't see the value we aren't going to get anywhere at all.
We can discuss why these yeshivos are indeed so important, but any other starting point is taking the eye off the ball and trying to win on a further discussion that we probably both agree to, when the real disagreement is about this.
Of course yeshivot are extremely important!
K that's a great starting point! So should we just shut them down? Shouldn't we try other solutions first? Shouldn't we make sure it's absolutely necessary to do so before taking such a drastic measure? Better, how could we not do try other things first?
Part of the answer to this is if you appreciate the yeshivos a little bit or as much as we do
Excuse me. You don't have a monopoly on "learning", yeshivot etc..
We believe in action not "vague hishtadlit". We believe in the overiding duty to join Tzahal. פיקוח נפש and the duty
to protect your community is primary. I suggest a creative Hesder for Chareidim.
You can have different courses of study and army service. More learning for those expected to dedicate their life to learning,
teaching, Also I believe in a. course of study and army service with more emphasis on army service for those who will end their learning and go to work.
I believe this accords more with reality and also provides for learning. Please spare me me esoteric created theories that believe that army service is unecessary.
My point exactly. Much hatzlacha with your endeavors!
I would add that the נביאים placed heavy
emphasis on the sin of idol worship and the lack of justice as major causes for punishment for עם ישראל.(plus רציחה ו גזל).
Do you not see how ridiculously evil and irrational the chareidim would have to be to believe what you think they do, its obviously not their belief.
What you are saying is just completely irrational.
Let us be very clear. As we see from the Eretz Nehederet clip, they do think we are extremely, cartoonishly evil. They are literally no better than anti-semites. That's why there will never be any compromise with these "rationalists", but with level-headed people.
Another one confirming not going to the army has nothing to do with 'torah protects'. You have sort off conceded NS's point - of course the chareidim believe in hishtadlus like everyone else, other there claims that 'torah protects' re the army is just a soundbite and they don't want to die or have their ruchniyos disrupted.
Torah protects is Him watching is while we do His will. So you're wrong about that.
And if this is rabbi doctor's point, we're square!
and helping fight to protect Jewish lives isn't "doing His will"? I just don't get it.
My son had a big dilemma about whether he should bring a Gemmara into Gaza. I'll tell you about it sometime
Sure it is doing His will! But if that will be at the expense of an entire generation is Israeli Jews not knowing what torah and yiraas shamayim are really about, that's kinda a big deal to the Chareidi! Open up a mussar sefer and you'll see what connecting with God is. They're not something that we should be giving up.
I'm not sure why older, developed Chareidim can't join and at some point I think we are on the same page that the culture had seeing too far in that direction, but we can change they if we're going to lose sight of what were about. Change can only come if we can keep up our mission. (It may come anyways from haters but this blog at least pretends to be coming from jewish values and that is who I'm talking to.)
it seems clear:
if charedim don't want to do it - they have excuses as to why they cannot (serve in the army, for instance.)
if they do want to do it - there have excuses as why they can (take money from the govt, for instance.)
that's politics (what's in it for me?) Not religious principle. Politics is a dirtier business - just a reality.
What's 32 months? Will they really have "missed out"?
I'd love to hear that story:)
So why doesn't He help you win elections while you do His will, learning torah all day and not going out from yeshivah canvassing?
Please set out the chiluk in clear bullet points.
There are many possibilities that only G-d knows when it occurs. G-,d has promised his Mercy as well as reward and
punishment,G-d forbid. HE guides human events also according to His Plans. Also צדיק ורע לו and רשע וטוב לו. Also He has a ברית אברהם ,יצחק ויעקב
No Rabbi ever claimed Torah protects and that is why charedim don't go to the army. It is a made up myth that R' Slifkin made up.
Clearly you don't follow the irrationalist modixosm blog....
I do. He is just nuanced when he explains the claim that Torah is a protection. It is not some magic that you can say some Torah words and you have magic powers that can deflect bullets/rockets/ grenades etc.
Why can't Haredim do their service in the IDF? Dati'im do it. They also get qualified jobs and still keep Torah. Perhaps HaShem uses our forces to protect us? I don't want to try simply davening.
What is with the fixation that the army is the only way to serve God? There are other ways of serving God even without going to the army.
It's not just about keeping Torah. It's about forging a relationship with God.
So Dati'im don't have a relationship with HaShem?????
Wow.
You can twist my words is you'd like. Or we can have an honest conversation here. You're choice
No, I'm simply asking you a question.
Do Dati'im have a decent relationship with HaShem (even while in the IDF)?
You can't answer yes, because then that puts Haredim in a hot spot. Nor can you say no because then you'll risk their ire.
So, again, why can't you answer the question? It's a bit cheap to just duck out, no?
Please. I'm not ducking out, and you never asked a question. You attacked. Here's what happened: you asked why Chareidim can't do their service in the IDF, and I responded that it's about forging a relationship, which cannot be done outside of the BM. You took that to mean that Datiim can't have ANY relationship with Hashem as some sort of "gotcha!" like I'm out of my mind. But it's actually an easy answer for me, and you can refer to my comment below: they cannot POSSIBLY have the same relationship with Hashem as someone can in the BM. It's just a fact of how things work. You can read the Rambam who describes that he would love to live in a cave in the desert and just focus on אהבה ויראה. This does not make them worse people, but it does make them not able to forge the same level of relationship. As per how these things work.
But thank you for clarifying anyway, as militant as you are trying to be.
Eating is something that we want to minimize, except maybe on Shabbat (when the Rambam says we should eat to satiation).
Why don't Haredim say vote, but only "bein haSedarim".
Right about the eating. About the voting, cuz it won't get done if we do it in that small window or time.
I voted at 9pm last night.
Polls were open until 10.
And why should yeshiva guys stop learning to canvass for votes?
You are correct they probably shouldn't have stopped learning, I know most Yeshivas/Kollelim operated completely as usual . People just like to cherry pick the few that didnt.
My bad if I missed the facts.
Not sure what you're trying to say
The yeshivot are putting too much hishtadlut into elections. If you accept that voting is acceptable (and many Haredim dispute this), it does not follow that you shut down learning for the entire day.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for being more clear.
Again, if it is important, we stop learning to do things that are important. I'm not sure why you decided that an hour or two is okay, a whole day not, based on some projections and stats in your mind. It's truly not so hard to hear that Chareidim voting is the hishtadlus we need to protect hundreds of days of learning in the future and if we need a whole day on this, that's not strange or anything.
"I mean, we go the store to buy groceries and don't expect it to magically appear on our doorsteps."
Who makes the food? Who imports food? Who grows the vegetables? Who gives you the money to buy it?
Zionists, Zionists, Zionists, Zionists.
By the way, it's spelled (and pronounced) "ergo."
Actually, it's not Zionists who produce these things, but tens of millions of non-Jews from all over the world, including Indians, Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Brazilians, Russians, and many more. Without them you would live like a caveman. Please express your heartfelt hakaras hatov to them.
Aren't you clever. And ignorant.
Still, where is your hakaras hatov to all the Non-Zionists, Non-Zionists, Non-Zionists without whom you would be in an infinitely worse situation than you are now?
I'm grateful to anyone who helps me.
Grateful to me for educating you
Deflection. And no - people, people, people, people. .
About the ergo, thanks, I knew I got it wrong! 🤣
Deflection or not, you can't answer. Unless you're living fat and happy in the goooluuus.
You guys like doing this. You make a rando point and when I don't answer and instead point out your deflection, which is what should be done in these kinds of situations, you say "you can't answer blah blah blah..." It's ridiculous because it's not even a particularly difficult question on my end, but you bring it up only to obfuscate the original point of the discussion, which is why'm calling you out in the first place. If you want to have this discussion here, we can, but don't pretend you are on topic and not playing a game of "gotcha!"
Cheers brother.
Walk off, be proud of yourself.
So human action relation to results is now illusion but it is I'm elation to going to the army even if it is to protect everyone.And it is because you decided it is part of the "deal" with G-d.The Rambam days Nature counts.G-d operates on and through Nature. You won't accomplish without the requisite effort and knowledge. There is no reference to any " illusion."Rabbi Dessler Za"tzal innovated this theory. He did not qualify it as you do with exceptions.
Corrected sorry. So human action in relation to results is an illusion but not for immediate necessary matters but for Army yes even if it is to protect everyone. This is so because of the "deal" with G-d. The Rambam days Nature counts.G-d operates on and through Nature. You won't accomplish anything without the requisite effort and knowledge. There is no mention of "illusion". Rabbi Dessler Za" Tzal innovated this theory.He did not qualify it as you do with your exceptions.
I'm sorry I can't understand half of this comment. Can you be more clear?
I'm not being patronizing, I'm earnestly trying to understand what you're asking.
I believe that it takes serious action to achieve results. You ask for G-d's help.Your merits may help you and your sins may weaken or defeat you, but serious action you must take. There is no illusion ,that is, you accomplished it because you did it.That's how G-d runs the world.
You're certainly correct in general. The question here is what is considered serious action and what isn't. Remember, it isn't at all just about numbers (see RSRH beginning of ki setzei) or might. As long as we are making a reasonable effort, if we are doing God's will, He will take care of us. I find it hard to say that we are not making a reasonable effort. The IDF is very powerful. The fact that it could be even stronger is not a taina. And I find it hard to say that we are doing God's will properly and so we need to strengthen that as well. Closing the yeshivos will have a super detrimental affect on avodas Hashem, while adding numbers isn't quite so simple.
So let's instead look for a better solution.
How is sending mechina students to the army before they conclude their Torah studies "maximizing your service of G.od?"
It isn't
https://twitter.com/KnessetT/status/1752980313762931112
Can't access Twitter
https://youtu.be/eqnauNi9UVQ
Or YouTube...
Can you summarize your point?
How do you determine that eating is a maximization of avodah and army service isn't? And how do you determine that voting somehow maximizes avodah in the way army service doesn't?
That is the big question, and perhaps the only good one to be raised here. I'm probably on the same side as you in a lot of these issues.
As far as army service is concerned, you must admit that being in yeshiva during those formitive years are essential to the mission. Missing those years is missing the chance to learn what torah and avodas Hashem is about. But should more (weaker) people join later? Probably!
Eating is maximization because not eating has less net avoda. Exercising probably, for most people, same thing. But too much maintenance at the expense of the machine actually running, that would be detrimental. Closing the yeshivos is detrimental. I can give a basic overview, but many details can be disputed. We have to think of it as a business where the currency is avodas Hashem and some decisions aren't 100% clear I'd leave it to the executives of the business who are the most invested in the cause (AKA the gedolim)...
One thing for sure, if people are ending up like the rationalists here, we are not doing our job and we need to strengthen our position, not weaken it.
Thats why we have Gedolim.
You are spitting pure facts here. It will be interesting to see what krum sevoros the charedi apologists who come on here will concoct
Definitely spitting, but not anything pure.
I'm awaiting your krum sevoros, please don't disappoint
I mean, it's sort of like asking for *your* excuse for trying to convert Jews to Christianity. What's your krum sevara for that?
Ask a proper question like a mentch, and we can discuss things. Spit out slurs and slander, don't expect a proper response.
Here's mine!
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/goodbye-god-its-elections-31b/comment/50546092
Here you can watch Rav Landau, the current Chareidi Gadol Hador saying “Whoever doesn’t want to vote shouldn’t put on tefillin.”
https://vinnews.com/2024/02/27/watch-rav-dov-landau-urges-charedim-to-vote-compares-to-wearing-tefillin/
To me this line is extraordinarily disturbing and upsetting. What right does he have to uproot a mitzvah in the torah? How is this different than telling someone to eat pig? There is no Mitvah in the torah to vote. And even if there was, a Gadol should never encourage someone to sin further. To me this crosses a line. He made up his own torah. This is no longer Judaism.
You obviously don't understand hyperbole.
This too, correct.
This is actually very consistent with standard chareidi beliefs, who believe the continuity of Judaism is dependent on the chareidi community. So voting for the interests of chareidi yeshivos is equivalent to voting for Judaism.
To be clear, you believe that Rav Lando and his followers have radically different religious beliefs than you do in general? Or only in regard to whether voting = tefillin?
Why is the continuity of the charedi community dependent on the histadlus of voting? Why not just learn more torah?
Because they are trying to install a government that is friendly to the chareidi community.
What does the government matter? If it is of material benefit, then there are things of much greater material benefit that could be done.
The government has a significant effect on chareidi interests. For example, if they would pass a law that all yeshiva bochurim enlist in the army or go to jail, then this would have a detrimental effect on yeshivos.
You're using three assumptions:
1. If such a law was passed, that would not be in accordance to God's will.
2. The people in government in charge have the ability to go against God's will.
3. Voting is able to change the government.
If all three are true, why wouldn't it be the case that serving in the army is appropriate means of protecting Israel?
Well, it would have a detrimental effect on the few people who benefit from the running of some yeshivot. Most charedim would not be affected, and of course there are hundreds of yeshivot whose students serve in the army.
I have been in the Israeli Charedi system for quite a few decades, and I never heard that hishtadlus is optional - I am not sure where you got this idea from.
If its inconsistent for Charedim to engage in hishtadlus, it is equally inconsistent for you to be talking about God.
That's right. Can't be a rationalist and talk about G-d, the chosen people, the Promised land. None of that is rational.
I find it all rational. Some would say it's apikorsus to call it irrational.
So a bunch of yeshiva bachurim take a hour to go vote once year and all of a sudden that is a disproof they don't have bitachon? You are far from logical here.
It's all about power and of course money
This is why people call anti- chareidism a microcosm of antisemitism.
Ridiculous comments like this.
This is nothing. In one of his recent "paid" posts, the one for his little club of sycophants, a commenter expressed the wish that Charedim should be barred from holding public office, and NS replied back with a hearty "I wish." You will not find any more vile anti-semitism on the internet than right here.
I get the same feeling of unjust hatred when reading this blog and al jazeera- not exaggerating.
Al Jazeera is tame in comparison.
Doesn't seem all that complicated. You are not likely to go OTD if you have a day outing with your fellow bochurim. You are likely to go OTD if you spend 3 years in an army literally designed - in the explicit words of of its designers - to be an engine of integration into secular culture. It doesn't matter how you dress up it up theologically because all theology is nonsense anyway.
The truth is that Charedim are just much better at psychology and sociology than DL. But then you don't have to be playing 5D chess when your competitor is playing checkers.
If anything there should be less hishtadlus when it comes to elections as משלי כ"א:א
פַּלְגֵי מַיִם לֶב מֶלֶךְ בְּיַד י"י עַל כׇּל אֲשֶׁר יַחְפֹּץ יַטֶּנּוּ.
The king's heart is in Hashem's hand like the watercourses. He turns it wherever he desires. with Malbim elaborating: הגם שלב האדם הפרטי נתון ברשותו והבחירה בידו, לא כן לב המלך, אחר שבבחירותו תלוי אושר הכלל, ואם יבחר בדרך רע ישחית רבים ועצומים, לכן ליבו זה הכללי הוא ביד ה', והוא בענייני הכלל משולל הבחירה.
But this is about CHOOSING the melech. The distinction is obvious.
How about freeing charedim from army service, on condition that those not serving do not get to vote (because they are relying on God rather than hishtadlus). That would be self-consistent.
This idea has come up before in comments on this blog. It's an interesting idea, but it wouldn't actually fly, because it's anti-democratic
No worse than depriving felons of the vote, as the US does.
That is such a one sided view of democracy. Everyone who disagrees with me shouldn't be able to vote. Wow!
No, only people whose stated belief system implies that there is no point in voting shouldn't be able to vote.
It wouldn't be taking anything away from them because they already don't think a vote will accomplish anything. If anything, you're benefiting them by saving their time.
I'm petrified that after the war, the push to get Chareidim to serve which will lead civil war.
The charedim will participate in a civil war?
They don't even join the IDF. They'd be defeated and they know it, B"H, so, no war.
If there is a civil war everyone looses.
Yes it is, but more fundamentally its dumb and unworkable. If the Charedim can't engage in any hishtadlus on the lunatic theory that its "inconsistent" [as determined by their opponents] with their beliefs, then their opponents also can never pretend to have spiritual or religious ideals, being equally inconsistent. In theory both sides might agree to this - Charedim not voting, opponents promising never again to pretend to pray, refer to God, quote the Torah, etc - but who can enforce that?
Also, if we're so worried about precious "inconsistencies", we still have have the inconvenient little problem of hundreds of thousands of Israeli Arabs who also aren't drafted. The silence is deafening.
"then their opponents also can never pretend to have spiritual or religious ideals"
Huh? You really think that hishtadlus and religion are incompatible?
Of course I dont thank that, that would be absurd. But NS does.
Lol, nice libel.
(Rabbi!) NS believes in religion and in hishtadlus, as you well know.
Mark - I dont think you're understanding his post. NS claims that b/c Charedim believe in divine providence, it is therefore hypocritical of them to spend effort on elections, for they should just sit back and let God do the work. Perforce, he DOES believe religion and hishtadlus are incompatible. (Dont ask me to explain such naarishkeit, i'm not his PR guy.)
Practically speaking, this would not work because once you have eliminated half of the charedim from the electorate, the next government is sure to be more hostile and they'll reverse the law or find some other way of drafting them and who knows what else. It will be a temporary solution with horrible long-term consequences for charedim (and democracy in general).
What is problematic is that the Chareidi leadership modify its total refusal to any army service.
Is it really true that they are not going to visit the wounded even?
According to Rav Brunner Dayan and Rosh Yeshiva in Safed there is no source for a blanket exception of one group of people from fighting in a Torah mandated war
"I wish people would just make up their minds and be consistent. Either you believe that hishtadlus is real - in which case, give your kids the education that they need to earn a living. Or, or decide that it's not - in which case, don't bother voting, just learn Torah!"
I wish you would at least be consistent in your accusations regarding alleged charedi inconsistency. Here's what you wrote here: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-denial-of-physical-reality-is-from
"The circumstances of this responsum, written back in 2014, is one of the Gaza conflicts. The questioner is dealing with the extremely difficult situation of waking his children when the siren sounds and evacuating them to a safe room. This causes immense hardship for the children and families. And the questioner is asking whether he can just let them continue to sleep in their rooms.
...
... incredibly, Rav Zilberstein addresses the question solely from a standpoint of hishtadlus. He begins by establishing that it is God Who protects Israel, though we are obligated to perform hishtadlus, which includes a halachic requirement to act safely. However, such obligations are only incumbent upon adults, since only adults are obligated in mitzvos. And so there is no halachic reason to wake children, since they are exempt from hishtadlus!
...
This is probably one of the most shocking things that I have ever seen, but it's really only the inevitable consequence of the Desslerian approach. There is no independent reality of rockets. There are only spiritual obligations, the neglect of which can lead one to be punished, possibly in the form of rockets. And since a child has no such obligations, he does not need to do anything, and the threat of rockets is meaningless."
Either you believe that they don't really believe what they claim to believe, or you believe that they *do* believe it, and it's getting them killed. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/who-caused-death-by-daas-torah
=====
In unrelated news, most Israelis apparently don't *really* believe in 'demokratiya.' https://www.timesofisrael.com/voter-turnout-suffers-as-many-stay-home-for-municipal-elections-amid-gaza-war/ But they do like shopping. https://www.timesofisrael.com/though-voter-turnout-low-israelis-flock-to-malls-on-municipal-election-holiday/
Why aren't you in the army, Nathan slifkin? Since you hold that this is a milchemes mitzva and no one is patur, why aren't you serving in the IDF?
The army doesn't take anyone (apart from physicians and dentists) past the age of twenty-six, for very good reasons.
They also don't take Chareidim who are learning in Yeshiva. For very good reasons.
Oh? Name one.
Because a strong yeshiva system is way more important for the continuation of Judaism than the State of Israel.
I suppose that's how Judaism managed to survive almost 4,000 years without a yeshiva system. And then, boom, there was a yeshiva system, and, boom, there was a Holocaust.
And guess what, Judaism survived for 2000 years without a State of Israel! I suppose you think that the yeshiva system caused the holocaust?
Cuz the idea of people going through the yeshiva system is necessary for forging a deep connection with Hashem. Not sure if this is something you ever learned about because you weren't zoicheh to join the yeshiva system but that's not on me
So there's 66,000 young men in Israel with a deep connection to Hashem - no more, no less? Amazing that it can be quantified like that!
Didn't say that. At all. (Which is why we need teshuva!) But whatever people do have deep connections, for the most part, it comes from the yeshiva system, the only places which champion those messages
I learned in yeshiva for many years, thankyouverymuch.
You are aware that yeshivot didn't exist before 1800, right? That the "yeshiva system" you speak of didn't exist before 1980? And that many great gedolim never went to yeshiva, and certainly not through the "yeshiva system"? Did none of them have a "deep connection with Hashem"?
Do only charedi Israeli men raised under this new system have a "deep connection to Hashem"? Do all of them? Do only they get to? What about women? Sephardim? Amharatzim, all of them?
Seriously, stop digging, for your own good.
"You are aware that yeshivot didn't exist before 1800, right? "
Wrong. Gross ignorance of the highest order. And of course, the Haskalah changed everything- for the worse. A strong yeshiva system is more necessary than it ever was.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-to-deal-with-the-world-isolation
'This takes years of growth and training, and not everyone inside puts in the proper effort to "get it" (and so we find some who think they were a part of our culture when they really never were)."
Maybe they should
I'm sure you know better than they.
If we are using arguments from authority, then I listen to the Gedolim. End of discussion.
Because the "Gedolim" know how to run an army.
The Gedolim know what is important for Torah Judaism. Unlike the army or secular Zionists.
That doesn't exempt somebody from their chiyuv of milchama. In his opinion, he should be doing everything possible to help the army, and he should not be doing anything else (e.g. Working in his museum or writing books). Joining the IDF isn't the only way to fight in this milchama.
So why isn't he doing any of these things?
You...don't live in Israel, do you?
I do.
You may have noticed that a *lot* of people aren't currently fighting.
Precisely such changes will have to be made if anyone is actually sincere about wanting charedim in the army [a doubtful proposition for the vast majority of the populace.] Similar compromises, in different areas, will have to be made with Israeli Arabs.
What changes? Brains get hard at the age of twenty-six, after which you can't train someone to go against natural instincts and run into fire.
Are you suggesting only combat positions are important in any army? Better tell the chayalot they're not really that important after all!
Remember, also, we're talking about a *compromise.* The whole program of hesder was also a compromise. To put it otherwise, its an "accommodation." That's the way it is. Like I said, the army is useful red meat for the base to bash "the other", but when one actually contemplates what it would mean to bring in tens of thousands of charedim, followed inevitably by Israeli Arabs [which you and NS noticeably keep ignoring] - - very doubtful anyone really interested in taking the steps necessary to make it happen.
It's not just a matter of combat. It's following orders.
And yes, you need a lot of combat troops.
And no, I'm not ignoring hesder or the Arabs.
I don't disagree with you. And I understand the point of younger drafting making for better soldiers. Still and all, there needs to be compromise, if it is to happens. (And I'm not saying it should or that the Charedim would agree; I'm just saying proponents need to be a little more realistic.)
30-yr olds can follow orders just fine. Remember, we are talking about a compromise. Not everything Nachum and his cronies want on a silver platter.
If 'brains go hard at 26", surely those precious years beforehand should be spent training Jews in Judiasm, and not in training them for 'running into fire'? The most important thing in Judaism is Torah, not army service.
And who protects Israel from our enemies? Note what age the Torah says people fight.
הנה לא ינום ולא ישן שומר ישראל
The Torah says 50-yr olds fight. What about that, hmmm?
Brains going hard has certain implications. It has nothing to do with training Jews or learning, it has to do with following orders and going against instincts.
By the way, in Eastern Europe virtually everyone stopped learning at the age of ten. They did OK. And here you have eight more years than that!
So if joining the IDF has nothing to do with brains and is just about following orders, why can't 30 year old men do it?
And as for your Eastern European point, the system in Eastern Europe was not the ideal Torah system due to widespread poverty and ignorance of the lower class, and therefore it was necessary for people to stop learning in order to support their families.
However, when poverty wasn't an issue, the Jews were expected to study Torah (see the Chassid Yaavetz, the Spanish Rishon, who blamed the cause of the inquisition on the Spanish Jews who had the ability to study Torah but instead studied secular subjects).
Nowadays, the system has allowed Jews to study Torah. So Jews should study Torah.
By the way, in Eastern Europe, there was no IDF. They did OK. And you have hundreds of thousands of more than that.
It's easy to point fingers.
Yes, it's easy to point at hypocrisy.
If that a dig?
Nope
Lol k good. I thought you were on our side here, but if you weren't, you realize how that could be misread? Dw about...
Nope