R. Landau repeated a common error and misspoke. The Arabs haven't ruled Palestine since 1518. It was ruled by Ottoman/Turks, until 1917, and shortly after ruled by the British, until 1948. In 1946, the Arabs ruled Trans Jordan.In 1948 the Arabs(Egypt) Ruled Gaza. Until 1967 Jordan ruled the West Bank and what is foolishly called traditionally Arab East Jerusalem until 1967. There has been a Jewish majority in"traditionally Arab East Jerusalem" since at least 1870 until 1948-1967. No Jew lived in Gaza, West Bank or "traditionally Arab East Jerusalem" during that time.Those that lived there before 1948 were expelled. R. Landau should know better, and now millions or so who consider him their leader will accept his nonsense. And of course the ignorant Jew/Israel haters around the world accept the nonsense narrative too.
Actually since 1099, when the Fatimids were massacred by the Crusaders (along with us). The Crusaders were from Christian Europe, the Ayubids were Kurds, and the Mamluks were primarily Turkish and Circassian.
"it was quite good when Arabs ruled here, the best situation, the Arabs ruled, they respected them, didn't interfere with them, brought money to the land"
This isn't completely false, but it applies to the Umayyad, Abbasid, and Fatimid Caliphates, not to anything in the past 900 years. And it was "best" only by comparison to the Eastern Roman Empire, which had plans to target us with genocide that were thwarted when the Rashidun Caliphate intervened.
The Mongols didn't stay long, thanks to the Mamluks, who gave the Mongols their first real military defeat that was never reversed. The Mongols weren't anti-Semites, they just committed genocide against everyone.
It seems that when R. Landau said "the Arabs" he meant "the Muslims" or "the non-Jews." R. Landau is an expert on Torah, not an expert on history or politics.
The Ottoman Empire for a while was good for us. Suleiman the Magnificent rebuilt Jerusalem and encouraged aliyah. But that was in the 16th century. In the early 20th century the Ottoman Empire tried to do to us what it was doing to the Armenians. The British invasion prevented that.
Is he an expert on Torah or Talmud? If he is an expert on Torah he should know he is breaking the command Gd gave to the Jews via Joshua to conquer the land. Not by sitting around studying but by going out to battle! I don’t think they used the Torah as a weapon!
The standard Jewish position doesn't frame these things as Torah vs. Talmud but rather as Written Torah vs. Oral Torah. Such that if someone studies Written Torah without Oral Torah, they haven't seen the whole picture. This is an old disagreement that I'm not looking to rehash.
If he were truly an expert in the Torah, he would recognize that figures like Yehoshua Bin Nun and King David did not spend their days immersed in the study of Gemara; instead, they actively engaged in battle, confronting their enemies with weapons and military strategy.
Thank you Raffi for making clear go everyone the problem with almost all orthodox rabbis... they are ignorant, having never taken their noses out of a gemara. So they shouldn't be asked for their opinion on anything other than what the gemara says.
But since in order to have a useful opinion on important issues, you need a broader background.. rabbis are useless.
"I have a problem with Haredim who neither serve nor work—because it places a heavy burden on me. However, I am willing to live with it under one condition: they stop being citizens of the State of Israel and forfeit all rights from the state—including purchasing property, opening bank accounts, vote, work, and more."
Charedi Judaism was present in Israel long before modern Zionism was born, and now you want to uproot them from the land. If you don't like how the older group does something, maybe you should move away from them. Instead you want to force your controversial ideas onto them and then punish them when they refuse to do it.
Charedi Judaism existed in Israel long before modern Zionism? in the world ? According to which historical narrative? Not my personal life and the family history.
And now you claim I want to uproot them from the land? Let me clarify: I am not expelling them from the Holy Land itself. I am addressing their presence on the land where I built homes, paved roads, and shed my blood.
Rabbi Landau has stated that Arab rule over Jews is preferable to Zionist rule. If that is his belief, he is free to draw his own conclusions and act accordingly. I do not prevent him from living in Gaza, Nablus, Hebron, Tulkarm, or Jenin.
Sure, charedi Judaism was present in Israel at least 100 years before modern zionism, and maybe more. Think about the Talmidei HaGra, and early form of modern charedism, who came to the land 80 years before the first yishuv.
As for moving to Gaza or the West Bank; 100 years ago, he probably would not have had an issue with that proposal. Before the Balfour declaration, the Arabs where not an issue, and Jews lived pretty peacefully in Arab villages such as Kiriat Arbah. If was only with the declaration of Zionism in Israel that this peace was shattered. It was the Zionists that caused this issue; why should the charedim, who did not want Zionism, be forced to fix the problems that it causes? The only reason why you shed blood was because of your own doing.
We have different definitions of "Haredim". Therefore, the request: Define what "Haredim" is for you and explain how it suits the talmidim of the Gra and the Baal Shem Tov who immigrated to Israel. Then explain how today's Rabbi Landau behaves exactly like them.
What is the source of your historical knowledge? I have personally heard and read different history about what happened here in Israel and in Islamic countries.
A charedi is someone who follows Halacha and also believes in a mesoras hpsak/da'as torah. R Landau is not only following Halacha and is also acting based on the da'as torah that he recieved from previous gedolim.
RE Kiriat Arbah, you are correct. I mistakenly referred to the Jewish Yishuv in chevron as it.
"Daat Torah" is a term that originally appeared in halachic literature. It became a political and ideological doctrine with the rise of Agudat Yisrael. You will not find "Daat Torah" that is not a halachic analysis before this period. The Hafetz Haim opposed this entire "prophetic" concept and explained: Daat Torah is someone who, from the moment he was born until he uttered Daat Torah, did not hear or see anything other than the words of Torah (I read it and I don't remember where). By the same token, there is a video of Rabbi Steinman being asked about Daat Torah and answering, it does not exist. I grew up in an Agudat Yisrael community. The community rabbi was among the most important in Agudat Yisrael. I never heard "Daat Torah" there. For an analysis of historical sources, see, among others, an article in Hebrew,
בנימין בראון, "דוקטרינת דעת תורה: שלושה שלבים", בתוך: יהוידע עמיר (עורך), דרך הרוח - ספר היובל לאליעזר שבייד, מחקרי ירושלים במחשבת ישראל יט (תשס"ה), עמ' 537–600."
99% of charedi Judaism comes from the old litvishe mesorah, specifically that of R Chaim Volozhiner. Nothing has changed ideologically.
Thank you for stawmanning charedi Judaism. Most charedim are not against Zionism. We are against secular and misguided movements within Zionsim. If we were against zionism IE Jew living in Eretz Yisrael we wouldn't be living in Eretz Yisrael.
The concept of Rabbanim having siyata dishmaya (IE Da'as Torah) existed way before the 80s. You can delude yourself if you want, but it is a concept already brought down by chazal. R Yeshua was able to tell a roman the gestation period of a snake because of this, despite not being a biologist.
No one is arguing that there aren't chumros that charedim are extremely makpid to keep, such as their rules on tznius. But what is the issue in that? They are keeping halacha properly. It is definitely better that not keeping halacha properly, like how the majority of Dati Leumi Jews eat Rabbanut hechshered food, a hechsher that allows kulos that every posek in the shulchan aruch says not to use, such as batul berov lechatchila (BTW I have no issue with Rabbanut, because their entire purpose was to matir whatever they can to prevent chilonim from being oiver aveiros legamri, which is why they allow batul berov lechatchila. But it was not meant for orthodox Jews!)
As for the "new religion", if anyone can be called that, surely it is the people who have separated from the mesorah of the past 1000 years simply because they have decided that moshiach is coming. What gives you a heter to enter southern Gaza to kill civilians? What gives you the right to start a milchama and risk hundreds of Jewish lives without a melech, sanhedrin and cohen gadol? Why on earth are you allowing Jewish youth to enter places of religious hatred, places where they are nearly guaranteed to leave on a lower spiritual level that they in at?
Now, I don't feel it is correct to call the Da'ati leumi a "new religion" because it would be incorrect and offensive. The majority of them have what to be somech on (even if it is da'as yechidim) and their intentions are good and honest albeit misplaced. They are orthodox, God fearing Jews, and it is disgusting to seriously suggest otherwise. And it is equally disgusting for you to say that charedim are not Jews.
"99% of charedi Judaism comes from the old litvishe mesora" Absolute nonsense. To give 2 obvious examples: Working and being self-sufficient was once considered the norm, and certainly a value; nowadays, charedim see the norm and ideal as being supported by others. Second: rabbinic leadership used to be held by community rabbis. Now its changed to roshei yeshiva.
You are conflating reality with philosophy/ideology.
It has been the Jewish philosophy for literally millennia that in an ideal world one should sit all day learning. The issue was that the reality of Europe made such a thing nearly impossible. However, if such a thing had become possible, they would have sat all day learning, which is entirely consistent with charedi philosophy.
Regarding community Rabbis, even in Europe there where Rabbinical organizations and Gedolie Hador whos' rulings overruled community rabbis. At times these people where even Roshie Yeshivos, such as Rabbenu Tam, who's pesakim where accepted as far away as England. Or take the Geonim, all of whom where roshie yeshivah, who where so accepted that Rabenu Shmuel Hanagid had to explain to them that one of his pesakim in Spain which seemingly went against the Geonim was approved by a shliach of the Yeshiva of Surah, despite Rabenu Shmuel being the Rav of Spain.
Much closer to our time, we have organizations like the Va'ad arbah aratzos in central Europe, whos pesakim where generally accepted by the Jews, even if they went against individual rabbis. They famously put R Yonasan Eybushitz into Cherem for his Gemarah editing.
Do you want to specify exactly what your issue is with Roshie Yeshiva being poskim?
You are completely ignoring the issue of financial support. For Chazal and all Jewish history, the ideal was to be self-supportive, both in terms of oneself and in terms of how one raises one's children. Charedim have completely abandoned that value.
What give us a heter to "kill civilians"? What's your alternative? Sit back and get killed? You don't need a sanhedrin and kohen gadol for a מלחמת מצווה which includes להציל ישראל מיד צר. The sanhedrin is needed for a מלחמת רשות.
The alternative it to put up strong enough borders to prevent terrorists from coming in. As opposed to going a few hundred kilometers away to kill people who are not necessarily terrorists.
Regarding need a sanhedrin/cohen gadol/melech, the Rambam is pretty clear that you need them all present for both a milchemes reshus and milchemes mitzva. If you don't like it, take it up with him (Lechorah it was learnt from the same pasuk as milchemes reshus is learnt from, as although the gemarah says milchemes reshus, the context of the pasuk is milchemes mitzva). Even Rav Kook was bothered by this, so he was mechadesh a new din, that the government of Israel can act as all three, a huge chiddush and one very easy to disagree with.
Strong borders can prevent all wars? Sounds quite naive. If we have a state we need an army. Any other alternative is לסמוך על הנס.
Regardibg the הלכה, I learned הלכות מלכים in Rambam. He explicitly says you don't need a sanhedrin for מלחמת מצווה. There's a question of מלך but not of sanhedrin. There are those who say that today its not דין מלחמה but a חיוב of פיקוח נפש. Nobody argues that jews living in Israel can't pick up arms and defend themselves. The satmar position would be that jews shouldn't have built a state in the first place and maybe shouldn't make Aliya but the states already been built and we're discussing Israeli jews.
That’s an interesting idea. It would allow them to continue living there, but remove their influence in Israeli politics, and also, prevent them from getting state money and insisting they can’t even be around women, which is personally offensive, and perhaps they would start wanting to leave. I’m pretty sure Ben Gurian would never have allowed the initial policy, if he had foreseen this possibility.
Rav Landau would prefer that Eretz Yisrael be under Arab rule or the U.N. (he says that elsewhere in this interview). How does this square with expecting no financial cuts to governmental support of his community's lifestyle?
Landau - "it was quite good when Arabs ruled here, the best situation, the Arabs ruled'",
Does this guy know any history at all or just speaks out of his Stomach??
Next time you go visit Tzfat and tour the Davidka memorial. Close your eyes and imagine the terror that happened in 1834. No Israel, no State . just approx 4,000 poor Jews trying to earn a living there. The day after Shavuos, a totally UNPROVOKED ATTACK was unleashed by the Arab residents on the their Jewish neighbors. I will describe it in "raw detail" so maybe the Rabbi can get it into his head.
After looting the homes and taking what they could, they brought up all the girls and woman to this Davidka spot , which was the central spot in the city. They publicly undressed each one and did a body exam on all of them to see if they are hiding any valuables. in their private parts. Many were gang raped in the open during this attack, same as they attacked the woman during the looting.
Many men were also raped as by the Arabs, they had no problem with this. The prize was to be the one to rape the Rabbi. As they were searching high and low for the Rabbi, the community snuck him out, paid a lot of money hiding the rabbi in Meron by an Arab . He charged the community by the day.
They also pulled a fast one - after 2 weeks, they claimed it is over and the many woman and girls that were hidden for family money in Tzfas by Arabs, came out and guess what - yep you got it - they raped them. The Rabbi was speared as the community wanted to keep him hidden a few more days longer to be sure . (If this guy was the rabbi at that time, they should not have paid a dime, and he will then know what it means to live with Arabs)) After 33 days a Druze contingent quelled the rioting by the order of the head of the ottoman empire.
Think of the yidden in Tzfas - they lost all their belonging, beaten, some killed , many
Sifrei Torahs and shuls ransacked or burned, Basically all the woman, all young girls, and some men were raped. When you close your eyes at the Davdka square try to imagine
the pain of those poor Yidden.
There in NO Choice we cant live anymore under others people rule. Those that want to gamble it again - please go elsewhere and don't ruin it for the rest of us.
The nominal ruler, Ibrahim Pasha, was supportive of Jews and ended up executing some of the perpetrators of this pogrom. But this actually shows that we can't rely even on a supportive non-Jew. We need a Zionist state.
You missed the point - if Landau would "know" (in both senses of the word) what the poor Yidden went through, he might change his mind. Pain is funny - it can do things to people!
Same as with the Satmer Rebbe, He did not suffer in the holocaust, He was protected and sent to the show concentration camp . He was given extra rations., did not have to work, even able to keep his beard, and then a bit later scooped out of there by the cursed Kastner, who took the highest price for lives. On the train to Switzerland he sat in the back car, and as people wanted to go talk to him, try to get some support, or maybe cry on his shoulders, he refused them. After the war he did not go from Switzerland to the DP camps, to be together with and support the broken Yidden. He washed his hands of the entire thing, He went to Israel, started his entire Idiotic claim that the Zionist wanted the European Jews killed so they can get a state.. Even though, before the occupation of Hungary, he fought with everyone, including the Zionist who came to warn the Yidden to try and leave. Wonder what is his situation in the next world??
I claim, at the end of the war he had egg on his face, as the Zionist were right warning the Yidden to leave. As he was not a dumb man, he figured out - he can kill 2 birds with one stone. First, I was right to fight the Zionist they are bad, and not just that, they were the cause of the holocaust.
On the other hand, the Klausenberg Rebbe of Blessed memory, did not have that protection, but was in a heavy work concentration camp. He got beaten like everyone else , had to work on shabbos, they cut his beard, suffered from fatigue, hunger and cold. (read the book on his life in those years). Then after the liberation he did not run, he stayed in the DP Camps, stayed with the broken Yidden, constantly working to help them and support them. He set up chadorim for the kids to learn Torah (my uncle was a bit older and was a Rebbe to the kids, My grandfather losing half his family got support from him).
After the war - people are not aware of this (and even Klausenberg does not openly disclose this). Every time he came to Israel , with his white socks, long coat, and big black hat. He bent down an all fours and kissed the ground. The first time he stayed like that several minutes thanking Hashem.
Here you san see what a few beatings can do to get people to think straight. Many Rebbes fought the Zionist before the war. The Lubavitch Rebbe Rashab printed a horrible book attacking the Zionist, (you can get a copy of it) but the the last Rebbe realized what the truth is, if everyone had joined them in Israel The Gerrer Rebbe, the Belzer Rebbes, and many others also realized what value Israel brings and never attacked them . However the Hungarian fools kept it up. and now these Litvaks, that want to shirk their duty, sit on their behinds and let other do the heavy lifting conveniently joined them.
Our GOAL should not be to get them to the Army, but we have to get Rid of them, they are nothing but a danger to the future of Israel.
We're on a roll. (A Hungarian one, I believe.) A few posts ago I was under someone's skin. Now the parasites are under my skin. By the way, I like your hat. Ch☺️☺️rs!
Basically. Getting them out of the government would help, as would the creation of a new charedi political party representing the more modern charedim.
If the next government could pass a “no representation without participation” law, in which voting privileges are contingent on the completion of a specified term of mandatory army/national service, this would go a long way towards solving the problem.
WHO WANTS TO DIE AGAIN IN LARGE NUMBERS - listen to this guy. The old fools did the same back in Europe.
You know what I don't want to die like a dog again, There as to be some way to get these crazy dangerous people out of the country. Maybe if we stop all their funding we can get them to voluntarily leave. If not we can always do it the Trump way.
Trump can't even deport unarmed illegal immigrants in the US in large numbers. But I have posted before, offer Palestinian Arabs residence visas with a path to citizenship to countries in Western Europe and North America, and they will likely leave in droves.
Worshippers of him. When he gedolim speak with DOS Toyreh even the Master of the Universe must bend the knee. I was told that I should keep pictures of the latest hereditary rabbi in every room to maximize the blessings and protection
You’re right with Fridays and Sundays, off shabbosim, “sof zman”, Chanukah, Purim, 3 bein hazmanim at least 3 weeks each, it’s closer to half the year.
Firstly, all of these vacations also apply to your beloved Hesder Yeshivos.
Secondly, No yeshivos has sunday off, and most yeshivos have Friday programs for half day, much like all da'ati leumi workers in Israel, who can leave early on Friday.
Thirdly, all religious persons don't work on Shabbos, so why are you including off shabbosos as vacation days that the D"L do not have? On the contrary, the fact that bachurim have to learn on all in shabbosos whilst the D"L have off can be considered unfair to the charedim. The same can be said for Purim, which most D"L also take off.
Fourthly, in regards to chanukah, most yeshivos maintain a learning program for those days, and take off an hour or two in the evening for hadlakas neiros and mesibos, JUST LIKE MOST D"L DO.
Fifth, there is still learning during sof zman. The only difference is more of a relaxation of rules to make the last week of winter zman more enjoyable. By the way, the same happens in most work places with a summer break; the last week or two becomes more relax.
As for bein hazmanim, the D"L get off pesach and sukkos as well, plus isru chag, which many yeshivos do not give free!
All together, the only days that charedim get off that D"L do not is two weeks of summer, two weeks of elul and two weeks of winter, around 45 days, whilst the D"L have around 20 extra shabbosos, isru chag and vacation days (Israel has an average of 12 per person), which gives around 40 days free. All in all, there is not much of a discrepancy, yet you want to milk it and make as if the charedim are always taking breaks.
You should he embarrassed by.your ignore. DL have to leave their yeshivot and jobs and wives and children to do reserve duty for several weeks every year for 25 years. (And thanks to charedim, now for even longer). When does any charedi guy have to leave his family?, in order to help everyone else? Have to leave his job, at risk of losing it?
Or you consider days the yeshiva serves food as days of learning.
As one who spent over ten years in multiple brand name chareidi yeshivas - the days I mentioned are days that no learning happens … even though they serve breakfast and lunch
And name me one yeshiva that doesn’t have 3 x a year bein hazmanim??
Not sure why you took the time to write a whole hit piece against the DL yeshivas when I never mentioned any of them…
I don’t know much about them or care about their schedules as they don’t put themselves on the spiritual pedestal….
What your problem is exactly is beyond my comprehension.
Clearly a lot of entitlement…
No one gives a shit about if the DL learns or not because they don’t make their leaning into other people’s problems.
And don’t lecture dead people why they deserve to be dead (Like landau did about young Jewish soldiers that died from the DL)- and they should sit and learn…
I though I was pretty clear with my issue with your comment, but let me say it again in a very concise way: You exaggerated numbers to make as if the Charedim have lots more vacation than the Da'ati Leumi, which is a lie.
You did this by ignoring days that the D"L has off whilst charedim do not and by counting days that both Charedim and D"L have vacation on.
On a separate note, I have been to a charedi Yeshiva. The only days that we had off was Bein Hazmanim and the Sunday after shabbos Chanukah. Punkt, those where the only days that the Yeshiva did not serve food, but that is irrelevent.
I also did not say anything about only x2 bein hazmanims a year. Neither was my piece targeted purely at hesder yeshivos. Only my first point was. The rest was regarding the larger religious zionist community as well.
Lastly, where did R' Landau say anything about dead soldiers?
If this rabbi and his ilk so dislike Israel so much why do they live there? I suggest that they leave. I suggest they stop taking monies from the government. They are simply hypocrites. The fact that others listen to him as if he is righteous is repugnant. Perhaps it is past time for Israel to hold them to account. They are enemies of the Jewish People, worse than kapos, and should be treated as such.
Not necessarily. Remember he said, "“I don't know what to say, from a political perspective I don't know.” And the rest of the words indicates he doesn't know much history beyond the tropes. It could be the same material in Rav Hutner's infamous Satmarist piece in the Jewish Observer.
That being the case, there's not enough mastery of the subject to be hypocritical. Don't attribute hypocrisy to what could better be explained by lack of knowledge.
Because he was there first, why should he move just because some modern Zionists caused a huge war and now want to impose the consequence onto him and his community?
You are more than welcome to move to a Muslim nation and be subjugated and considered less than. Thank god for the Zionists so Jews don’t have to live as less than anyone else. Oh and you are pathetic.
How could we have lived in Israel as a majority without a "huge war"? Or the yishuv hayashan wanted Israel to themselves and keep out the frayer yeeden?
Do you not know what a kapo is? As far as charedi themselves, this is merely a question of how to observe Judaism. These aren’t sins, these are differences in interpretation with other branches of Judaism.
Ok so substitute 'this rabbi and his ilk' for 'Chareidi' (which is what I meant in the first place), who you refer to as 'are enemies of the Jewish People, worse than kapos'.
So now list the kapos' sins and show how this rabbi and his ilk are worse.
Primo LEvi said that kapos live in a gray area. Presented with the dystopian nightmare of the concentration camp what would you do to survive or help your loved ones to survive. While many kapos indeed committed terrible crimes for which they should be held accountable, others like the female jewish doctor who performed abortions on jewish women raped by nazis so that they would not be gassed is one such kapo who did what she could to help others.
This rabbi and his ilk who decry serving in the IDF, who basically help the enemies of the Jewish people, condemn the Jewish state for existing, condemn the ISraeli soldier are not living in a dystopian nightmare, they are living in a free Jewish state but they have decided to abandon the Jewish people and leave them to the subjugation of our enemies. They pray for the destruction of ISrael. Which would mean the genocide of the 7 million Jews living in Israel. Hence worse than kapos. They are cherem, traitors, and need to be treated as such.
You say that the charedim accept Landau's view. But if you look at the comments in Kikar Shabbat that you linked to pretty much everyone there finds his comments to be crazy.
I don't know much specifically about KS, but that is a brilliant concept. OO begins with feeling inferior to the western zeitgeist and twisting Orthodoxy to fit with it. This could or did happen just as well to Chareidism. As opposed to others with self-confidence yet willing to make accommodations within a genuine framework.
According to Roman legend, their prophetess, the Sybil of Cumae Bay, was condemned to live as many years as there are grains of sand in a handful. According to their legend, she kept shrinking until she lived in a jar.
An alarmingly apt metaphor for what passes for "the Gdoylim" in haredi popular culture.
I’m fine with Rabbi Landau’s position. But, if he is obstructing withdrawal, then he should be I firming his constituents and followers that they should not be taking any money, handouts social or other support from any Zionist or Zionist affiliated organization. Similar, he should instruct his people not to daven at the kotel, learn in buildings funded by the state, suit any kever of a known tzadik etc. after all, these are benefits from the secular zionists and no beracha could ever come of them. The intellectual dishonesty is a joke.
That final point is in parentheses, but perhaps it needs an article of its own. There are large swathes of Orthodox Jews who basically agree with the critique here considered on its merits, but can't bring themselves to condemn the gadol or fully accept the absurdity, nastiness and incompetence displayed.
R Landau clearly has dementia and the Chareidi press is pulling a Joe Biden on him, covering it up. No one takes what he says seriously anymore in the larger Chareidi world, except to play pretend.
I would note that while I agree with the essence of this post, you keep lumping Chareidim as a whole as an other in ways that incite hate. It's horrific to read, but you come close to calling for expulsion of all Chareidim (while of course not backing that for the Arabs). You cannot condemn a whole demographic group like that, just as you would t do it for the Blacks.
Finally, I would not be so quick to praise the Zionists plan, as some.of them as well tried to prevent the escape of Jews from Europe as the Kastner trial plainly revealed. Jabotinsky was right.
Plenty of people make it to their mid 90s without dementia. The nonsense he spoke is just warmed over Charedi tropes. The average Charedi 30 year old in his mental prime and hasn't read any history beyond written by the hagiographers and Ben Hecht would speak in the same way.
You've lost the plot. My point was that this historical nonsense is not a symptom of dementia, just a symptom of living in a cloistered bubble. And the proof is that what he said is typical of the stupidity spoken by people a third his age.
You disagree. By implication, you're saying that the average 30 year old Charedi knows more history than the Gadol HaDor™, or that the latter does indeed suffer from dementia.
They're pulling a Joe Biden by video recording and posting an interview with him, with the assembled Roshei Yeshiva seeking (what they perceive as) his wisdom?
There are a bunch of different issues that are getting in the way of most chareidim joining the army. "Most chareidim" includes a large range of groups, and different groups refuse for different reasons.
Their refusal does not at all have to be predicated on any of the points R Landau was making.
In my opinion the single biggest obstacle is that this is the way it's been for a very long time that chareidim don't draft and it's incredibly difficult to change that mindset and culture, especially in a short amount of time
“R Landau clearly has dementia and the Chareidi press is pulling a Joe Biden on him, covering it up. No one takes what he says seriously anymore in the larger Chareidi world, except to play pretend”
By The Israeli Yeahivishe media taking him seriously the average “chareidy” takes him very seriously.
In Bnei Brak the Yated is not some random paper, that bored people read on shabbos.
It is a daily PR machine, eaten up and devoured by the masses.
Also the concept of “Dass Torah” was created in Bnei Brak, and no one questions “Torah authority”. Even when quoted as ridiculous as this are constantly coming out from those corners.
It’s nice that you’re trying to whitewash Chareidim, as inocentes bystanders with a bad spokesperson.
But that is so far from the truth, just look at what happens to Rabbi leibel… and so many others…
R. Landau repeated a common error and misspoke. The Arabs haven't ruled Palestine since 1518. It was ruled by Ottoman/Turks, until 1917, and shortly after ruled by the British, until 1948. In 1946, the Arabs ruled Trans Jordan.In 1948 the Arabs(Egypt) Ruled Gaza. Until 1967 Jordan ruled the West Bank and what is foolishly called traditionally Arab East Jerusalem until 1967. There has been a Jewish majority in"traditionally Arab East Jerusalem" since at least 1870 until 1948-1967. No Jew lived in Gaza, West Bank or "traditionally Arab East Jerusalem" during that time.Those that lived there before 1948 were expelled. R. Landau should know better, and now millions or so who consider him their leader will accept his nonsense. And of course the ignorant Jew/Israel haters around the world accept the nonsense narrative too.
"The Arabs haven't ruled Palestine since 1518"
Actually since 1099, when the Fatimids were massacred by the Crusaders (along with us). The Crusaders were from Christian Europe, the Ayubids were Kurds, and the Mamluks were primarily Turkish and Circassian.
"it was quite good when Arabs ruled here, the best situation, the Arabs ruled, they respected them, didn't interfere with them, brought money to the land"
This isn't completely false, but it applies to the Umayyad, Abbasid, and Fatimid Caliphates, not to anything in the past 900 years. And it was "best" only by comparison to the Eastern Roman Empire, which had plans to target us with genocide that were thwarted when the Rashidun Caliphate intervened.
True. I forgot about the Mongols as well. Not sure about Saladin.
The Mongols didn't stay long, thanks to the Mamluks, who gave the Mongols their first real military defeat that was never reversed. The Mongols weren't anti-Semites, they just committed genocide against everyone.
Saladin was a Kurd. He let Jews back into Jerusalem when he took it from the Crusaders. Rambam famously worked for him.
It seems that when R. Landau said "the Arabs" he meant "the Muslims" or "the non-Jews." R. Landau is an expert on Torah, not an expert on history or politics.
Bet they all look alike to him….
You know they do.
The Ottoman Empire for a while was good for us. Suleiman the Magnificent rebuilt Jerusalem and encouraged aliyah. But that was in the 16th century. In the early 20th century the Ottoman Empire tried to do to us what it was doing to the Armenians. The British invasion prevented that.
Is he an expert on Torah or Talmud? If he is an expert on Torah he should know he is breaking the command Gd gave to the Jews via Joshua to conquer the land. Not by sitting around studying but by going out to battle! I don’t think they used the Torah as a weapon!
Are you actually an expert on the Hebrew Bible, or do you just memorize what your church tells you to?
Neither. I read it myself. I just don’t accept that I need a rabbi to teach me what the Bible says.
Do you speak Hebrew?
No. I use an English translation from the Sefaria app. It’s dual language, English and Hebrew
Ma tif'ol?
WADR, are you Jewish?
No. Im a Christian who actually reads and studies the whole Bible. Does that make a difference?
The standard Jewish position doesn't frame these things as Torah vs. Talmud but rather as Written Torah vs. Oral Torah. Such that if someone studies Written Torah without Oral Torah, they haven't seen the whole picture. This is an old disagreement that I'm not looking to rehash.
If he were truly an expert in the Torah, he would recognize that figures like Yehoshua Bin Nun and King David did not spend their days immersed in the study of Gemara; instead, they actively engaged in battle, confronting their enemies with weapons and military strategy.
Thank you Raffi for making clear go everyone the problem with almost all orthodox rabbis... they are ignorant, having never taken their noses out of a gemara. So they shouldn't be asked for their opinion on anything other than what the gemara says.
But since in order to have a useful opinion on important issues, you need a broader background.. rabbis are useless.
"I have a problem with Haredim who neither serve nor work—because it places a heavy burden on me. However, I am willing to live with it under one condition: they stop being citizens of the State of Israel and forfeit all rights from the state—including purchasing property, opening bank accounts, vote, work, and more."
Wow, the Chazon Ish was right.
Charedi Judaism was present in Israel long before modern Zionism was born, and now you want to uproot them from the land. If you don't like how the older group does something, maybe you should move away from them. Instead you want to force your controversial ideas onto them and then punish them when they refuse to do it.
Charedi Judaism existed in Israel long before modern Zionism? in the world ? According to which historical narrative? Not my personal life and the family history.
And now you claim I want to uproot them from the land? Let me clarify: I am not expelling them from the Holy Land itself. I am addressing their presence on the land where I built homes, paved roads, and shed my blood.
Rabbi Landau has stated that Arab rule over Jews is preferable to Zionist rule. If that is his belief, he is free to draw his own conclusions and act accordingly. I do not prevent him from living in Gaza, Nablus, Hebron, Tulkarm, or Jenin.
Sure, charedi Judaism was present in Israel at least 100 years before modern zionism, and maybe more. Think about the Talmidei HaGra, and early form of modern charedism, who came to the land 80 years before the first yishuv.
As for moving to Gaza or the West Bank; 100 years ago, he probably would not have had an issue with that proposal. Before the Balfour declaration, the Arabs where not an issue, and Jews lived pretty peacefully in Arab villages such as Kiriat Arbah. If was only with the declaration of Zionism in Israel that this peace was shattered. It was the Zionists that caused this issue; why should the charedim, who did not want Zionism, be forced to fix the problems that it causes? The only reason why you shed blood was because of your own doing.
We have different definitions of "Haredim". Therefore, the request: Define what "Haredim" is for you and explain how it suits the talmidim of the Gra and the Baal Shem Tov who immigrated to Israel. Then explain how today's Rabbi Landau behaves exactly like them.
What is the source of your historical knowledge? I have personally heard and read different history about what happened here in Israel and in Islamic countries.
By the way: Kiryat Arba was founded in 1971.
A charedi is someone who follows Halacha and also believes in a mesoras hpsak/da'as torah. R Landau is not only following Halacha and is also acting based on the da'as torah that he recieved from previous gedolim.
RE Kiriat Arbah, you are correct. I mistakenly referred to the Jewish Yishuv in chevron as it.
"Daat Torah" is a term that originally appeared in halachic literature. It became a political and ideological doctrine with the rise of Agudat Yisrael. You will not find "Daat Torah" that is not a halachic analysis before this period. The Hafetz Haim opposed this entire "prophetic" concept and explained: Daat Torah is someone who, from the moment he was born until he uttered Daat Torah, did not hear or see anything other than the words of Torah (I read it and I don't remember where). By the same token, there is a video of Rabbi Steinman being asked about Daat Torah and answering, it does not exist. I grew up in an Agudat Yisrael community. The community rabbi was among the most important in Agudat Yisrael. I never heard "Daat Torah" there. For an analysis of historical sources, see, among others, an article in Hebrew,
בנימין בראון, "דוקטרינת דעת תורה: שלושה שלבים", בתוך: יהוידע עמיר (עורך), דרך הרוח - ספר היובל לאליעזר שבייד, מחקרי ירושלים במחשבת ישראל יט (תשס"ה), עמ' 537–600."
R Landau is not only following Halacha? I didn't see a word of halakhic law in his words.
Because chareidim would have never brought the nation as a whole back. קיבוץ גלויות as a whole was accomplished by the כופרים mainly.
Again, so what?
What are you smoking
The whole “chareidi” way of life is a new way of Judaism that was a direct response to Zionism.
Hence the Hebrew word “chareidi”.
For all the anti Zionist frum chevrah, by making your religion about being anti-Zionism, you validate Zionism to the max.
How about just being Jewish…
As far as Daas Torah - that’s a concept that came together with the creation of degel hatorah - it’s from the 80s
What’s so funny about Israeli chareidi society is that, things that aren’t even mitzvahs or hangagh tovas, are the “koveya”.
As I said, it’s a new religion
But my friend URI - is drinking the Kool-Aid straight from the can
99% of charedi Judaism comes from the old litvishe mesorah, specifically that of R Chaim Volozhiner. Nothing has changed ideologically.
Thank you for stawmanning charedi Judaism. Most charedim are not against Zionism. We are against secular and misguided movements within Zionsim. If we were against zionism IE Jew living in Eretz Yisrael we wouldn't be living in Eretz Yisrael.
The concept of Rabbanim having siyata dishmaya (IE Da'as Torah) existed way before the 80s. You can delude yourself if you want, but it is a concept already brought down by chazal. R Yeshua was able to tell a roman the gestation period of a snake because of this, despite not being a biologist.
No one is arguing that there aren't chumros that charedim are extremely makpid to keep, such as their rules on tznius. But what is the issue in that? They are keeping halacha properly. It is definitely better that not keeping halacha properly, like how the majority of Dati Leumi Jews eat Rabbanut hechshered food, a hechsher that allows kulos that every posek in the shulchan aruch says not to use, such as batul berov lechatchila (BTW I have no issue with Rabbanut, because their entire purpose was to matir whatever they can to prevent chilonim from being oiver aveiros legamri, which is why they allow batul berov lechatchila. But it was not meant for orthodox Jews!)
As for the "new religion", if anyone can be called that, surely it is the people who have separated from the mesorah of the past 1000 years simply because they have decided that moshiach is coming. What gives you a heter to enter southern Gaza to kill civilians? What gives you the right to start a milchama and risk hundreds of Jewish lives without a melech, sanhedrin and cohen gadol? Why on earth are you allowing Jewish youth to enter places of religious hatred, places where they are nearly guaranteed to leave on a lower spiritual level that they in at?
Now, I don't feel it is correct to call the Da'ati leumi a "new religion" because it would be incorrect and offensive. The majority of them have what to be somech on (even if it is da'as yechidim) and their intentions are good and honest albeit misplaced. They are orthodox, God fearing Jews, and it is disgusting to seriously suggest otherwise. And it is equally disgusting for you to say that charedim are not Jews.
"99% of charedi Judaism comes from the old litvishe mesora" Absolute nonsense. To give 2 obvious examples: Working and being self-sufficient was once considered the norm, and certainly a value; nowadays, charedim see the norm and ideal as being supported by others. Second: rabbinic leadership used to be held by community rabbis. Now its changed to roshei yeshiva.
You are conflating reality with philosophy/ideology.
It has been the Jewish philosophy for literally millennia that in an ideal world one should sit all day learning. The issue was that the reality of Europe made such a thing nearly impossible. However, if such a thing had become possible, they would have sat all day learning, which is entirely consistent with charedi philosophy.
Regarding community Rabbis, even in Europe there where Rabbinical organizations and Gedolie Hador whos' rulings overruled community rabbis. At times these people where even Roshie Yeshivos, such as Rabbenu Tam, who's pesakim where accepted as far away as England. Or take the Geonim, all of whom where roshie yeshivah, who where so accepted that Rabenu Shmuel Hanagid had to explain to them that one of his pesakim in Spain which seemingly went against the Geonim was approved by a shliach of the Yeshiva of Surah, despite Rabenu Shmuel being the Rav of Spain.
Much closer to our time, we have organizations like the Va'ad arbah aratzos in central Europe, whos pesakim where generally accepted by the Jews, even if they went against individual rabbis. They famously put R Yonasan Eybushitz into Cherem for his Gemarah editing.
Do you want to specify exactly what your issue is with Roshie Yeshiva being poskim?
You are completely ignoring the issue of financial support. For Chazal and all Jewish history, the ideal was to be self-supportive, both in terms of oneself and in terms of how one raises one's children. Charedim have completely abandoned that value.
What give us a heter to "kill civilians"? What's your alternative? Sit back and get killed? You don't need a sanhedrin and kohen gadol for a מלחמת מצווה which includes להציל ישראל מיד צר. The sanhedrin is needed for a מלחמת רשות.
Your not arguing with me, youre arguing with the Rambam. If you have an issue, take it out with him.
The alternative it to put up strong enough borders to prevent terrorists from coming in. As opposed to going a few hundred kilometers away to kill people who are not necessarily terrorists.
Regarding need a sanhedrin/cohen gadol/melech, the Rambam is pretty clear that you need them all present for both a milchemes reshus and milchemes mitzva. If you don't like it, take it up with him (Lechorah it was learnt from the same pasuk as milchemes reshus is learnt from, as although the gemarah says milchemes reshus, the context of the pasuk is milchemes mitzva). Even Rav Kook was bothered by this, so he was mechadesh a new din, that the government of Israel can act as all three, a huge chiddush and one very easy to disagree with.
Strong borders can prevent all wars? Sounds quite naive. If we have a state we need an army. Any other alternative is לסמוך על הנס.
Regardibg the הלכה, I learned הלכות מלכים in Rambam. He explicitly says you don't need a sanhedrin for מלחמת מצווה. There's a question of מלך but not of sanhedrin. There are those who say that today its not דין מלחמה but a חיוב of פיקוח נפש. Nobody argues that jews living in Israel can't pick up arms and defend themselves. The satmar position would be that jews shouldn't have built a state in the first place and maybe shouldn't make Aliya but the states already been built and we're discussing Israeli jews.
I like how it took you a couple weeks to come up with this…
It doesn’t even take a few minutes to see all the blatant contradictions just in this paragraph.
The fact that over an ideological difference you constantly speak negatively about acheinu Bnei Yisroel - speaks volumes.
Landau, never spoke against the war, they claimed that the Bochurim are the ones fighting it.
You are advocating for the civilians in Gaza - that sounds more niturey karts then Landau.
That’s an interesting idea. It would allow them to continue living there, but remove their influence in Israeli politics, and also, prevent them from getting state money and insisting they can’t even be around women, which is personally offensive, and perhaps they would start wanting to leave. I’m pretty sure Ben Gurian would never have allowed the initial policy, if he had foreseen this possibility.
Every Hareidi who loses his job has to move out of the country? That sounds reasonable. But not DL. They can stay!
Rav Landau would prefer that Eretz Yisrael be under Arab rule or the U.N. (he says that elsewhere in this interview). How does this square with expecting no financial cuts to governmental support of his community's lifestyle?
Landau - "it was quite good when Arabs ruled here, the best situation, the Arabs ruled'",
Does this guy know any history at all or just speaks out of his Stomach??
Next time you go visit Tzfat and tour the Davidka memorial. Close your eyes and imagine the terror that happened in 1834. No Israel, no State . just approx 4,000 poor Jews trying to earn a living there. The day after Shavuos, a totally UNPROVOKED ATTACK was unleashed by the Arab residents on the their Jewish neighbors. I will describe it in "raw detail" so maybe the Rabbi can get it into his head.
After looting the homes and taking what they could, they brought up all the girls and woman to this Davidka spot , which was the central spot in the city. They publicly undressed each one and did a body exam on all of them to see if they are hiding any valuables. in their private parts. Many were gang raped in the open during this attack, same as they attacked the woman during the looting.
Many men were also raped as by the Arabs, they had no problem with this. The prize was to be the one to rape the Rabbi. As they were searching high and low for the Rabbi, the community snuck him out, paid a lot of money hiding the rabbi in Meron by an Arab . He charged the community by the day.
They also pulled a fast one - after 2 weeks, they claimed it is over and the many woman and girls that were hidden for family money in Tzfas by Arabs, came out and guess what - yep you got it - they raped them. The Rabbi was speared as the community wanted to keep him hidden a few more days longer to be sure . (If this guy was the rabbi at that time, they should not have paid a dime, and he will then know what it means to live with Arabs)) After 33 days a Druze contingent quelled the rioting by the order of the head of the ottoman empire.
Think of the yidden in Tzfas - they lost all their belonging, beaten, some killed , many
Sifrei Torahs and shuls ransacked or burned, Basically all the woman, all young girls, and some men were raped. When you close your eyes at the Davdka square try to imagine
the pain of those poor Yidden.
There in NO Choice we cant live anymore under others people rule. Those that want to gamble it again - please go elsewhere and don't ruin it for the rest of us.
The nominal ruler, Ibrahim Pasha, was supportive of Jews and ended up executing some of the perpetrators of this pogrom. But this actually shows that we can't rely even on a supportive non-Jew. We need a Zionist state.
"I will describe it in "raw detail" so maybe the Rabbi can get it into his head."
The rabbi is for sure going to read your comment!
You missed the point - if Landau would "know" (in both senses of the word) what the poor Yidden went through, he might change his mind. Pain is funny - it can do things to people!
Same as with the Satmer Rebbe, He did not suffer in the holocaust, He was protected and sent to the show concentration camp . He was given extra rations., did not have to work, even able to keep his beard, and then a bit later scooped out of there by the cursed Kastner, who took the highest price for lives. On the train to Switzerland he sat in the back car, and as people wanted to go talk to him, try to get some support, or maybe cry on his shoulders, he refused them. After the war he did not go from Switzerland to the DP camps, to be together with and support the broken Yidden. He washed his hands of the entire thing, He went to Israel, started his entire Idiotic claim that the Zionist wanted the European Jews killed so they can get a state.. Even though, before the occupation of Hungary, he fought with everyone, including the Zionist who came to warn the Yidden to try and leave. Wonder what is his situation in the next world??
I claim, at the end of the war he had egg on his face, as the Zionist were right warning the Yidden to leave. As he was not a dumb man, he figured out - he can kill 2 birds with one stone. First, I was right to fight the Zionist they are bad, and not just that, they were the cause of the holocaust.
On the other hand, the Klausenberg Rebbe of Blessed memory, did not have that protection, but was in a heavy work concentration camp. He got beaten like everyone else , had to work on shabbos, they cut his beard, suffered from fatigue, hunger and cold. (read the book on his life in those years). Then after the liberation he did not run, he stayed in the DP Camps, stayed with the broken Yidden, constantly working to help them and support them. He set up chadorim for the kids to learn Torah (my uncle was a bit older and was a Rebbe to the kids, My grandfather losing half his family got support from him).
After the war - people are not aware of this (and even Klausenberg does not openly disclose this). Every time he came to Israel , with his white socks, long coat, and big black hat. He bent down an all fours and kissed the ground. The first time he stayed like that several minutes thanking Hashem.
Here you san see what a few beatings can do to get people to think straight. Many Rebbes fought the Zionist before the war. The Lubavitch Rebbe Rashab printed a horrible book attacking the Zionist, (you can get a copy of it) but the the last Rebbe realized what the truth is, if everyone had joined them in Israel The Gerrer Rebbe, the Belzer Rebbes, and many others also realized what value Israel brings and never attacked them . However the Hungarian fools kept it up. and now these Litvaks, that want to shirk their duty, sit on their behinds and let other do the heavy lifting conveniently joined them.
Our GOAL should not be to get them to the Army, but we have to get Rid of them, they are nothing but a danger to the future of Israel.
If they continue to stay "as parasites", they are nothing but a danger to the future of Israel?
To Don Coyote, hat is correct - this is the smartest thing a coyote ever said, Ask any Coyote that is full of parasites
We're on a roll. (A Hungarian one, I believe.) A few posts ago I was under someone's skin. Now the parasites are under my skin. By the way, I like your hat. Ch☺️☺️rs!
As the Jew-haters like to say nowadays, "I ain't reading all that."
That is one way to remain ignorant.
Yeah. I despise that.
If you despise remaining ignorant, why don't you read the paragraph?
"Does this guy know any history at all or just speaks out of his Stomach??"
You shouldn't disrespect him by using the word "guy".
Sure I can use other objective words, but trying to keep it civil.
He shouldn’t be disrespecting most of am yisroel.
And especially not Yesomim and Almanis…
I know it’s a averiah to help them (Shay Goucher Clip), but don’t disrespect a young father’s death and alleged spiritual status….
Where do we go from here? Are we just stuck with a fifth column?
Basically. Getting them out of the government would help, as would the creation of a new charedi political party representing the more modern charedim.
If the next government could pass a “no representation without participation” law, in which voting privileges are contingent on the completion of a specified term of mandatory army/national service, this would go a long way towards solving the problem.
Is there really a more “modern” chareidi group?
The mainstream chareidi is getting so radicalized it’s scary to watch.
Did you hear the gaslighting interview with MK Pindrus on headlines a few weeks ago?
It’s just so sickening to see evil win.
What do the chreidim have that the majority party always wants so badly??
first constructive, non acerbic suggestion from you I've seen
Until the sane Israeli public unites at the ballot box, that's the way it is going to be.
Not holding my breath.
Well, the other side wants to keep the Oslo accords, so we are stuck with 2 insane sides.
Antizionism is antisemitism.
Sometimes indeed.
Pretty much...
WHO WANTS TO DIE AGAIN IN LARGE NUMBERS - listen to this guy. The old fools did the same back in Europe.
You know what I don't want to die like a dog again, There as to be some way to get these crazy dangerous people out of the country. Maybe if we stop all their funding we can get them to voluntarily leave. If not we can always do it the Trump way.
Trump can't even deport unarmed illegal immigrants in the US in large numbers. But I have posted before, offer Palestinian Arabs residence visas with a path to citizenship to countries in Western Europe and North America, and they will likely leave in droves.
But when there are rocket attacks anywhere near his worshippers he demands military protection
Worshippers of God, or worshippers of him…?
Worshippers of him. When he gedolim speak with DOS Toyreh even the Master of the Universe must bend the knee. I was told that I should keep pictures of the latest hereditary rabbi in every room to maximize the blessings and protection
"charedim take ten weeks of vacation every year"
I am in the wrong lifestyle!
“A person would rather one kav of his own then 10 kavs of his friends” (Talmud)
Seems like contrary to popular chareidi opinion, the Talmud felt living a welfare style community is far from ideal.
Take your lifestyle in stride.
How do you get to 10 weeks? I can think of:
- 3 Bein HaZmanim
- 1 Pesach (?)
You’re right with Fridays and Sundays, off shabbosim, “sof zman”, Chanukah, Purim, 3 bein hazmanim at least 3 weeks each, it’s closer to half the year.
That's one way of being dishonest.
Firstly, all of these vacations also apply to your beloved Hesder Yeshivos.
Secondly, No yeshivos has sunday off, and most yeshivos have Friday programs for half day, much like all da'ati leumi workers in Israel, who can leave early on Friday.
Thirdly, all religious persons don't work on Shabbos, so why are you including off shabbosos as vacation days that the D"L do not have? On the contrary, the fact that bachurim have to learn on all in shabbosos whilst the D"L have off can be considered unfair to the charedim. The same can be said for Purim, which most D"L also take off.
Fourthly, in regards to chanukah, most yeshivos maintain a learning program for those days, and take off an hour or two in the evening for hadlakas neiros and mesibos, JUST LIKE MOST D"L DO.
Fifth, there is still learning during sof zman. The only difference is more of a relaxation of rules to make the last week of winter zman more enjoyable. By the way, the same happens in most work places with a summer break; the last week or two becomes more relax.
As for bein hazmanim, the D"L get off pesach and sukkos as well, plus isru chag, which many yeshivos do not give free!
All together, the only days that charedim get off that D"L do not is two weeks of summer, two weeks of elul and two weeks of winter, around 45 days, whilst the D"L have around 20 extra shabbosos, isru chag and vacation days (Israel has an average of 12 per person), which gives around 40 days free. All in all, there is not much of a discrepancy, yet you want to milk it and make as if the charedim are always taking breaks.
You should he embarrassed by.your ignore. DL have to leave their yeshivot and jobs and wives and children to do reserve duty for several weeks every year for 25 years. (And thanks to charedim, now for even longer). When does any charedi guy have to leave his family?, in order to help everyone else? Have to leave his job, at risk of losing it?
What has that got to do with the price of cheese?
Clearly you never saw a chareidi yeshiva…
Or you consider days the yeshiva serves food as days of learning.
As one who spent over ten years in multiple brand name chareidi yeshivas - the days I mentioned are days that no learning happens … even though they serve breakfast and lunch
And name me one yeshiva that doesn’t have 3 x a year bein hazmanim??
Not sure why you took the time to write a whole hit piece against the DL yeshivas when I never mentioned any of them…
I don’t know much about them or care about their schedules as they don’t put themselves on the spiritual pedestal….
What your problem is exactly is beyond my comprehension.
Clearly a lot of entitlement…
No one gives a shit about if the DL learns or not because they don’t make their leaning into other people’s problems.
And don’t lecture dead people why they deserve to be dead (Like landau did about young Jewish soldiers that died from the DL)- and they should sit and learn…
I though I was pretty clear with my issue with your comment, but let me say it again in a very concise way: You exaggerated numbers to make as if the Charedim have lots more vacation than the Da'ati Leumi, which is a lie.
You did this by ignoring days that the D"L has off whilst charedim do not and by counting days that both Charedim and D"L have vacation on.
On a separate note, I have been to a charedi Yeshiva. The only days that we had off was Bein Hazmanim and the Sunday after shabbos Chanukah. Punkt, those where the only days that the Yeshiva did not serve food, but that is irrelevent.
I also did not say anything about only x2 bein hazmanims a year. Neither was my piece targeted purely at hesder yeshivos. Only my first point was. The rest was regarding the larger religious zionist community as well.
Lastly, where did R' Landau say anything about dead soldiers?
You didn’t read the original article that quoted landau.
Yet you’re arguing with me?
You rambled on the schedules of Dl yeshivas.
And made up some sort of utopia society of alleged chareidi yeshiva schedules.
I am not sure what your point is - but to you thinking you came out clear - absolutely not..
I still have no idea why you think The ramble on the DL yeshiva schedule had anything to do with anything.
3 weeks in tishrei (yom kippur- rosh chodesh), 4 weeks in Nissan, 3 weeks in av (Tisha b'av- rosh chodesh)
If this rabbi and his ilk so dislike Israel so much why do they live there? I suggest that they leave. I suggest they stop taking monies from the government. They are simply hypocrites. The fact that others listen to him as if he is righteous is repugnant. Perhaps it is past time for Israel to hold them to account. They are enemies of the Jewish People, worse than kapos, and should be treated as such.
"They are simply hypocrites."
Not necessarily. Remember he said, "“I don't know what to say, from a political perspective I don't know.” And the rest of the words indicates he doesn't know much history beyond the tropes. It could be the same material in Rav Hutner's infamous Satmarist piece in the Jewish Observer.
That being the case, there's not enough mastery of the subject to be hypocritical. Don't attribute hypocrisy to what could better be explained by lack of knowledge.
They’re hypocrites because they decry the existence of Israel yet take from the country either in the form of welfare or the army’s protection
We wouldn't need the army if not for the Zionists in the first place.
Most of you wouldn't be in Israel if not for the zionists.
You are more than welcome to walk your children into gas chambers the rest of us won’t take crap from anyone anymore. Oh and go fuck yourself asshole
Because he was there first, why should he move just because some modern Zionists caused a huge war and now want to impose the consequence onto him and his community?
You are more than welcome to move to a Muslim nation and be subjugated and considered less than. Thank god for the Zionists so Jews don’t have to live as less than anyone else. Oh and you are pathetic.
How could we have lived in Israel as a majority without a "huge war"? Or the yishuv hayashan wanted Israel to themselves and keep out the frayer yeeden?
What's on the list of kapo sins & what's on the list of Chareidi sins?
Do you not know what a kapo is? As far as charedi themselves, this is merely a question of how to observe Judaism. These aren’t sins, these are differences in interpretation with other branches of Judaism.
Ok so substitute 'this rabbi and his ilk' for 'Chareidi' (which is what I meant in the first place), who you refer to as 'are enemies of the Jewish People, worse than kapos'.
So now list the kapos' sins and show how this rabbi and his ilk are worse.
Primo LEvi said that kapos live in a gray area. Presented with the dystopian nightmare of the concentration camp what would you do to survive or help your loved ones to survive. While many kapos indeed committed terrible crimes for which they should be held accountable, others like the female jewish doctor who performed abortions on jewish women raped by nazis so that they would not be gassed is one such kapo who did what she could to help others.
This rabbi and his ilk who decry serving in the IDF, who basically help the enemies of the Jewish people, condemn the Jewish state for existing, condemn the ISraeli soldier are not living in a dystopian nightmare, they are living in a free Jewish state but they have decided to abandon the Jewish people and leave them to the subjugation of our enemies. They pray for the destruction of ISrael. Which would mean the genocide of the 7 million Jews living in Israel. Hence worse than kapos. They are cherem, traitors, and need to be treated as such.
Kudos on your imagination.
All western countries would.
It depends if you're talking about Americans who are totally detached, or Israelis who are still being moser nefesh on behalf of other Jews.
You say that the charedim accept Landau's view. But if you look at the comments in Kikar Shabbat that you linked to pretty much everyone there finds his comments to be crazy.
Those who comment are self-selected, no way to know if they are representative of the broad readership.
Meanwhile, the mainstream haredi outlet that first published this specifically selected these excerpts, presumably to honor Rav Landau's "wisdom"
No, not at all. Kikar Shabbos has an agenda not unlike this blog
You don't like the agenda, start your own blog and comment there. I for one promise not to obtrude on your realm.
He does have a blog and he has some interesting, thought provoking stuff there.
The comment section is there for commenting. I commented. As one should do in the comment section.
If it were the brownnose section you'd be correct. But it's not.
What's their agenda?
Mainstreaming open Chareidism
I don't know much specifically about KS, but that is a brilliant concept. OO begins with feeling inferior to the western zeitgeist and twisting Orthodoxy to fit with it. This could or did happen just as well to Chareidism. As opposed to others with self-confidence yet willing to make accommodations within a genuine framework.
What does the alleged agenda got to do with the comments… you’re deflecting…
His point was ghat you see many chareidim are nervous from Landaus position.
You’re mentioning theories on why the website was created.
One has nothing to do with the other…
Speaking of agendas, your the Rebba of agenda.
Ash - aren’t you guilty of agenda yourself.
Trying to be mekatev everyone on Substack…. 😂
But probably most of those people will vote for the party Rav Landau tells them to vote for.
I think this Rabbi created a new target for us in Purim.
Drink until you read his words and say - this is how a gadol speaks
If you are not able to think this you have to drink more
Hard to tell if it is stupidity, nastiness, selfishness, or …dementia….maybe a combination.
Yes, but in what other society do we turn to those with dementia for sage advice and leadership?
look at the last two presidents of the US
Hmmmm Catholicism….???
According to Roman legend, their prophetess, the Sybil of Cumae Bay, was condemned to live as many years as there are grains of sand in a handful. According to their legend, she kept shrinking until she lived in a jar.
An alarmingly apt metaphor for what passes for "the Gdoylim" in haredi popular culture.
I’m fine with Rabbi Landau’s position. But, if he is obstructing withdrawal, then he should be I firming his constituents and followers that they should not be taking any money, handouts social or other support from any Zionist or Zionist affiliated organization. Similar, he should instruct his people not to daven at the kotel, learn in buildings funded by the state, suit any kever of a known tzadik etc. after all, these are benefits from the secular zionists and no beracha could ever come of them. The intellectual dishonesty is a joke.
I am always very surprised whenever I see quotes from him.
Sounds more extreme than any quote I have ever seen from Eitz/Peleg Yerushalayim.
R Shteinman brought a beautiful idea of tolerance and love, something that was quite ahead of the Isreali yeshivshe time.
It is kind of sad to see the mainstream become more extreme than the fringe extremists.
That final point is in parentheses, but perhaps it needs an article of its own. There are large swathes of Orthodox Jews who basically agree with the critique here considered on its merits, but can't bring themselves to condemn the gadol or fully accept the absurdity, nastiness and incompetence displayed.
R Landau clearly has dementia and the Chareidi press is pulling a Joe Biden on him, covering it up. No one takes what he says seriously anymore in the larger Chareidi world, except to play pretend.
I would note that while I agree with the essence of this post, you keep lumping Chareidim as a whole as an other in ways that incite hate. It's horrific to read, but you come close to calling for expulsion of all Chareidim (while of course not backing that for the Arabs). You cannot condemn a whole demographic group like that, just as you would t do it for the Blacks.
Finally, I would not be so quick to praise the Zionists plan, as some.of them as well tried to prevent the escape of Jews from Europe as the Kastner trial plainly revealed. Jabotinsky was right.
"R Landau clearly has dementia"
Plenty of people make it to their mid 90s without dementia. The nonsense he spoke is just warmed over Charedi tropes. The average Charedi 30 year old in his mental prime and hasn't read any history beyond written by the hagiographers and Ben Hecht would speak in the same way.
I'm assuming you don't know any 30 year old Chareidim
You've lost the plot. My point was that this historical nonsense is not a symptom of dementia, just a symptom of living in a cloistered bubble. And the proof is that what he said is typical of the stupidity spoken by people a third his age.
You disagree. By implication, you're saying that the average 30 year old Charedi knows more history than the Gadol HaDor™, or that the latter does indeed suffer from dementia.
I am saying the latter suffers from dementia. Apparently you lack reading comprehension.
I do!
Besides for me lol
They're pulling a Joe Biden by video recording and posting an interview with him, with the assembled Roshei Yeshiva seeking (what they perceive as) his wisdom?
No, i.mean the USA Chareidi media (ywn, Yated etc) are covering up and not reporting the insane things he has said. This is not the least of it.
Sybil of Cumae Bay time.
"pulling a Joe Biden"? You ran "pulling a Convicted Felon"
sane washing the senile ravings of a demented madman by order of the rich men who own the media
I voted for Biden. Did not vote for Trump.
Is that true he’s not taken seriously?
From what I understand he’s adored and followed almost cult like….
Not afaik.
There’s gotta be some sort of cognitive dissonance by them…
For years they were brutally fighting The eitznikim/peleg yerushalmi, over this very idea.
And with the change of recent leadership, the mainstream is sounding more extreme than the fringe.
If no one takes what he says seriously why are the vast majority of Hareidim still refusing to be drafted?
There are a bunch of different issues that are getting in the way of most chareidim joining the army. "Most chareidim" includes a large range of groups, and different groups refuse for different reasons.
Their refusal does not at all have to be predicated on any of the points R Landau was making.
In my opinion the single biggest obstacle is that this is the way it's been for a very long time that chareidim don't draft and it's incredibly difficult to change that mindset and culture, especially in a short amount of time
“R Landau clearly has dementia and the Chareidi press is pulling a Joe Biden on him, covering it up. No one takes what he says seriously anymore in the larger Chareidi world, except to play pretend”
By The Israeli Yeahivishe media taking him seriously the average “chareidy” takes him very seriously.
In Bnei Brak the Yated is not some random paper, that bored people read on shabbos.
It is a daily PR machine, eaten up and devoured by the masses.
Also the concept of “Dass Torah” was created in Bnei Brak, and no one questions “Torah authority”. Even when quoted as ridiculous as this are constantly coming out from those corners.
It’s nice that you’re trying to whitewash Chareidim, as inocentes bystanders with a bad spokesperson.
But that is so far from the truth, just look at what happens to Rabbi leibel… and so many others…