What's fascinating is that despite endless comments and nasty insults here, Shimshon has not actually addressed the argument of the post (he threw out a claim about faster winds but was unable to explain which direction they blow in, nor how they would even help given the flight path he seems to now be proposing.
"Instead, they told me, they had started by becoming skeptical of medical science, and then proceeded to Earth science. I’ve seen other people take this path, and unfortunately this sort of conspiratorial thinking sometimes ends up with those who believe that the Rothschilds are controlling it all. Along with the total nonsensicality of it, this motivated me to give a shot at dissuading them."
That is what you wrote. Why is it nonsensical to be skeptical of the covid vaccines, or any other medical belief? Is it a religion? What is "medical science" anyway? Who gets to determine that? Fauci? The CDC? The New York Times? The government? Why is it nonsensical to be skeptical of any or all of them? It might be wrong in some cases to come to a different conclusion, but why is it nonsensical? Why are you allowed to be skeptical of Chazal, but we can't be skeptical of the CDC? And why are you afraid to answer simple, important questions like this, yet you just go on insulting the people who are skeptical? What is rational and scientific about you, anyway?
I can say the same about your refusing to answer simple questions about your stance on the vaccines after all this time. All you do is insult people who are skeptical about them. Your head is deep in the sand. You are not scientific or rational. You just insult people, and you only respond when you think you can make someone look stupid with a zinger.
Shimshon, I have a good idea. Let's have your friend with his 2 Bitcoin put his money where his mouth is and charter a commercial plane and fly it from Brazil to Australia via Antartica. You can load up the plane with all your conspiracy theory comrades, so we can get this settled for once and for all.
No, I'm not a civil engineer, but I have a physical sciences background and have worked in the physical sciences for my whole career.
Over reasonable separation distances (perhaps up to tens of km) one can approximate two plumb lines (a line from a given point to the Earth's center of gravity) as being parallel. They are not parallel, but for almost all short distance surveying cases, the angle between them is negligible for the purposes of engineering calculations, and surveyors use this as the basis for a flat reference plane relative to which elevations can be determined.
Over larger distances, the parallel plumb line approximation introduces too much error, and you can't accurately calculate elevations relative to a reference plane. Instead, you calculate elevations relative to a reference ellipsoid (called a geoid) -- a representation of a smooth "featureless Earth" with radii determined to sea level.
The geoid serves as the elevation baseline, and replaces the flat plane that would be used over short distances.
The location of the geoid in space is determined by GPS, which provides precise elevation numbers relative to the Earth's average sea level, and reference distances over a curved suface vs. a flat one. So in geodetic surveying, precise GPS receivers (which determine longitude, latitude, and elevation relative to the geoid) partly replace the traditional theodolites (which just determine angles between reference points and a plumb line) that are used in plane surveying.
Turnkey GPS receivers are not that expensive now, but you could even create your own with a $20 software defined radio plugged into your laptop and a $5 antenna capable of receiving at the GPS frequency (which is around 1.5 GHz, IIRC).
I’ve used that very logical aviation analogy to try to show flat earthers how aviation shows a non-flat earth. To which I’ve gotten replies that anyone who would try to fly the flat earth route would be shot down by the NATO Air Force. Aside from the fact that NATA doesn’t have an air force.
Antarctica is irrelevant. The earth was known to be a globe long before Antarctica was discovered.
There have been north-south circumnavigations, but that too is irrelevant since the earth was known to be round long before any circumnavigation.Your inability or obstinate refusal to travel the poles is no proof of anything.
Maybe Rutan isn't as incredulous as you are. It doesn't matter. Rutan's personal standards of what he considers a waste of time, effort and money aren't a proof of any geographic claim.
There may be no direct roads from Asuza to Kookamunga but that doesn't mean they aren't on the same continent. There haven't been trips from Everest to the Mariana Trench and yet both extreme locations exist. The delusion that there are no such flights is no proof of any geographic claim. Why are you arguing from circuitous proxies?
While your pondering the answer to that question, you can go to Qantas' website and book a direct flight from Sydney to Johannesburg.
What is too far? How many km is too far? You still haven't been forthcoming with your claim. You're being evasive. What are you trying to hide?
"You know as much about flying and how jets work as I do"
How flying works is irrelevant. How the camera (or human eyes) gets to a specific location and altitude is irrelevant to how far you expect to see when you get there. But you keep bringing up irrelevant issues to sidestep stating a clear claim that can be evaluated.
You mentioned 30k feet, but you never, ever mentioned precisely what you'd expect to see from such an altitude. Numbers, please.
I really hope most of the comments here are due to Purim coming next week. I had no idea there were still people who believed in a flat Earth. As David Oshie pointed out, the Greeks knew about a round Earth well over 2000 years ago. If you look up Aristarchus, Eratosthenes, and and Hipparchus, you'll find that they knew the circumference of the Earth to a surprisingly accurate value. They even knew the relative Earth-Moon to Earth-Sun distance all due to basic trigonometry and some out-of-the-box thinking and experimenting.
Flat earthers are the most interesting conspiracy theorists as it is so triviap to show they are incorrect. I still half believe thst they are all just trolls and go to sleep each night laughing about the people on the internet they have wound up.
I’ve just caught up on reading the comments, and my updated version of this theory includes that @Shimshon is actually a RNS sock-puppet created solely to show how stupid his opponents are.
(in case I have just violated Poe’s Law, to be clear that was not a serious claim but intended sarcastically)
Clearly, Hashem employs the well-attested phenomenon of k’fitzat haderech trick us into believing the distance between Johannesburg and Perth is shorter than it really is. QED.
On Quora, flat earthers have a strong presence, and will flag any attempt to disproved them as spam. It’s easy to get banned on Quora, as they have strong ‘be nice’ policy. And it is easy to violate that when dealing with moronic flat earthers.
I am very disappointed in this post. It legitimizes the flat-earthers. I do beleive that we should be open for debate on every subject, but not on their terms. To discuss flight patterns regarding something as elementary as the shape of the earth is giving in to their narrative. Is 1 plus one also proved from flight patterns? Anyone can at any time call up someone on the other sidde of the globe at any time and determine that they see the sun at the same time at the opposite positin. That is 100% proof. The fact that these communcications now happen millions of times every day, and that the AllZmanim times are used constantly all over the globe multiplies this prooof by the billions.
Iam wriring this because I spoke to a Lakewood flat-Earther and he felt vet very legitimized by this entire conversation.
The essential error of "flat earth" belief is that what works for short distances, also works for long distances. It's only when distances become long -- a significant fraction of the diameter of the earth -- that the "flat earth" model fails.
"Celestial navigation" has been used for a long time (not decades, but centuries) as a reliable way to find a boat's position on the open sea, and to tell the navigator which way to steer the boat, to get to its destination. Well into the 20th century, it was also used in aircraft navigation.
Every calculation, and every astronomical datum that goes into celestial navigation, depends on the assumption of a (roughly) spherical Earth. That boats and airplanes get to their destinations, is pretty good evidence against a flat earth, and in favor of a spherical one.
Of course, understanding the calculations requires mathematical knowledge that goes beyond what's covered in yeshivah. So the argument I just made isn't likely to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced.
Charles
_Every calculation_ in celestial nav assumes a round earth.
Not weighing in on any specific conspiracy theory that is being pushed here, but I really wish that Shimshon and Cookie would stop calling everyone who disagrees with them "retards" etc. It lowers the level of conversation here. Even if you are absolutely convinced that every scientific theory in existence is wrong, calling your opponents "retards" is an automatic גריעותא. It shows that you have nothing to say other than insults. Other than the very offensive nature of the word "retard".
That being said, Shimshon has basically pushed 2 arguments: A treaty to prevent civilian exploration south of the arctic circle, and some unlikely seeming plane landings. He has thrown some wind speed into the mix. Everything else he has said has been "packaging". Ditto for Cookie. So for those of you who find conspiracies in all shadows, find suspicious coincidence in innocuous things, and haven't simply read wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence_for_the_spherical_shape_of_Earth), I urge you to read this comic: https://xkcd.com/481/
I believe that is all there is to say. You need only watch any responses to this comment (if there are any) - they will devoid of content, and mostly accusations of "retard".
I have nothing to say other than insults? One of the posters openly rooted for me to die, and Slifkin did nothing but make sarcastic retorts and ignore my serious questions challenging his position. Stop whining about hurt feelings and saying I find conspiracies in shadows. You're also full of s***.
"Lack of observed curvature"? If you get high enough, you see the curvature. Many hundreds, probably upward of a thousand, people have seen it with their own eyes (astronauts and high-altitude reconnaissance pilots). Billions more have seen it in pictures taken from space.
But it is. It is. The math will tell which height the curve becomes perceivable. Obviously, it's not perceivable with your nose on the ground. Obviously, it's perceivable from the moon. But the math will tell whether it's perceivable from 30k feet.
Why is it relevant to point out that they are from Lakewood? Most Yeshiva people know the earth is round. Secondly, the Talmud in Avodah Zarah 42 clearly knew the earth to be round. It was the dark ages that digressed and forgot much previously known knowledge.
I do agree that almost Yeshivish believe that the world is spherical and that the solar system is heliocentric. However, if you ask them if the Gemara and Rishonim agreed, they will likely mistakenly assume that the answer is yes when that isn't the case. And there are definitely geocentrists like Bloch who advocate this position based on the Rishonim who were all geocentrists.
This reference has little to do with the shape of the earth. Unless we imagine that the author of that statement imagined that the earth could be shaped like a bird. See Pesachim 94a which can only be understood assuming a flat earth. Undoubtedly many members of chazal knew the earth to be spherical, but all or almost all the references in the Talmud are to a flat earth.
No idea what you are talking about. Mishnah says befairush if an idol is holding a globe is certainly Avodah Zarah. Tosafos says because it shows domination over the world by the idol holding a globe.
The immediately prior statement is that if the idol is holding a bird and the exact same reasoning is used: צפור שתופש את עצמו תחת כל העולם כולו כצפור: כדור שתופש את עצמו תחת כל העולם כולו ככדור. So this is very poor evidence that the author of this piece of gemara viewed the earth as a sphere. Tosafos do relate it to the shape of the earth, but via a yerushalmi that views the earth of consisting of a ball-shaped landmass in a bowl of water which is the worldwide ocean surrounding the land. This too is a variation on a flat earth; a spherical earth has no bowl of flat water surrounding a central landmass. It is true that this is often misquoted as indicating the understanding that the earth is spherical, but that is incorrect. And as I pointed out there are many other places in the Talmud where is it clear that a flat earth was simply assumed.
OK, that is a peshat. I'm not sure why not accepting it as certain is nonsense. What the gemera is saying is that holding an object indicates control. So it is certainly possible that the ball represents a globe. It is also possible, as pointed out by Tosafos, that it represents only the landmass, sunk into a flat ocean. Or there could be some other symbolism. OTOH, there are many, many gemaras which clearly indicate that the earth is flat. Have you looked at Pesachim 94a? 94b also indicates a flat earth (the water is warm at night because the sun passes under the earth warming it). All the descriptions of the sun hiding about behind the rakia at night also assume a flat earth. See https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/our-world-their-universe
Tosafos says the "Alexander something" (is he even Jewish?) saw the earth was curved by looking down from a tower, i.e., through observation. The Greeks thought the earth was curved as well. In any case, Tosafos was well after the Gemara . . .
Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: The size of Adam the first man was from one end of the world to the other, as it is stated: “Since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other,” which indicates that he spanned the entire length of the world. Once he sinned, the Holy One, Blessed be He, placed His hand upon him and diminished him, as it states: “And laid Your hand upon me.”
So you refuse to tell us where you think the רקיע is. Why won't you tell us? Could it be that if you provided a precise location that is consistent with flat earth nonsense you'd necessary contradict Chazal.
The south pole is some 4000 miles south of Argentina. What do you think is 4000 miles south of Argentina? The רקיע?
You people are all falling for Slifkin's little game. It's all about discrediting any criticism of the covid shots by conflating it with people who believe the earth is flat. They are two separate subjects. It's true that people who are naturally skeptical of the establishment are more likely to be skeptical about other things, but in reality the two subjects have nothing to do with one another. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would never conflate the two, but would examine each on its own merits. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would also be skeptical of the official narrative about the shots, especially when the "crazy anti-vaxxers" have been vindicated in the eyes of all but the most stubborn. Slifkin can make fun of them all he wants, but he's in the extreme minority at this point, and losing more ground by the day.
Then again, Slifkin isn't really rational or scientific -- he's just an arrogant windbag with his own extreme biases, and he just can't admit he was very very wrong about the covid shots. So he writes a childish post conflating skepticism about the shots to flat earth.
Slifkin should be very concerned about what he might have done to himself and his family with these shots, as well as the responsibility he has if anyone took the shots because of him. Just because Slifkin and the yokels here make a joke out of everything doesn't mean it's a joke in real life.
Of course. It's what he always does, and not just about Covid either, but on all left wing issues. It is genuinely amusing to me that someone who spends so much accusing others of narrow-mindedness or ignorance or any of a long list of fictitious horrible , is himself among the most closed-minded of public bloggers.
What's fascinating is that despite endless comments and nasty insults here, Shimshon has not actually addressed the argument of the post (he threw out a claim about faster winds but was unable to explain which direction they blow in, nor how they would even help given the flight path he seems to now be proposing.
"Instead, they told me, they had started by becoming skeptical of medical science, and then proceeded to Earth science. I’ve seen other people take this path, and unfortunately this sort of conspiratorial thinking sometimes ends up with those who believe that the Rothschilds are controlling it all. Along with the total nonsensicality of it, this motivated me to give a shot at dissuading them."
That is what you wrote. Why is it nonsensical to be skeptical of the covid vaccines, or any other medical belief? Is it a religion? What is "medical science" anyway? Who gets to determine that? Fauci? The CDC? The New York Times? The government? Why is it nonsensical to be skeptical of any or all of them? It might be wrong in some cases to come to a different conclusion, but why is it nonsensical? Why are you allowed to be skeptical of Chazal, but we can't be skeptical of the CDC? And why are you afraid to answer simple, important questions like this, yet you just go on insulting the people who are skeptical? What is rational and scientific about you, anyway?
I can say the same about your refusing to answer simple questions about your stance on the vaccines after all this time. All you do is insult people who are skeptical about them. Your head is deep in the sand. You are not scientific or rational. You just insult people, and you only respond when you think you can make someone look stupid with a zinger.
Shimshon, I have a good idea. Let's have your friend with his 2 Bitcoin put his money where his mouth is and charter a commercial plane and fly it from Brazil to Australia via Antartica. You can load up the plane with all your conspiracy theory comrades, so we can get this settled for once and for all.
"Sorry guys, there is no accounting for curvature in engineering projects."
But there is. It is called geodetic surveying. Just repeating that this type of surveying doesn't exist, doesn't somehow erase its existence.
No, I'm not a civil engineer, but I have a physical sciences background and have worked in the physical sciences for my whole career.
Over reasonable separation distances (perhaps up to tens of km) one can approximate two plumb lines (a line from a given point to the Earth's center of gravity) as being parallel. They are not parallel, but for almost all short distance surveying cases, the angle between them is negligible for the purposes of engineering calculations, and surveyors use this as the basis for a flat reference plane relative to which elevations can be determined.
Over larger distances, the parallel plumb line approximation introduces too much error, and you can't accurately calculate elevations relative to a reference plane. Instead, you calculate elevations relative to a reference ellipsoid (called a geoid) -- a representation of a smooth "featureless Earth" with radii determined to sea level.
The geoid serves as the elevation baseline, and replaces the flat plane that would be used over short distances.
The location of the geoid in space is determined by GPS, which provides precise elevation numbers relative to the Earth's average sea level, and reference distances over a curved suface vs. a flat one. So in geodetic surveying, precise GPS receivers (which determine longitude, latitude, and elevation relative to the geoid) partly replace the traditional theodolites (which just determine angles between reference points and a plumb line) that are used in plane surveying.
Turnkey GPS receivers are not that expensive now, but you could even create your own with a $20 software defined radio plugged into your laptop and a $5 antenna capable of receiving at the GPS frequency (which is around 1.5 GHz, IIRC).
I hope this explanation is helpful.
I’ve used that very logical aviation analogy to try to show flat earthers how aviation shows a non-flat earth. To which I’ve gotten replies that anyone who would try to fly the flat earth route would be shot down by the NATO Air Force. Aside from the fact that NATA doesn’t have an air force.
https://brothke.medium.com/a-simple-experiment-that-can-prove-the-earth-is-flat-b354ca12220f
Antarctica is irrelevant. The earth was known to be a globe long before Antarctica was discovered.
There have been north-south circumnavigations, but that too is irrelevant since the earth was known to be round long before any circumnavigation.Your inability or obstinate refusal to travel the poles is no proof of anything.
"No there haven't."
It was done in 1965.
Maybe Rutan isn't as incredulous as you are. It doesn't matter. Rutan's personal standards of what he considers a waste of time, effort and money aren't a proof of any geographic claim.
There may be no direct roads from Asuza to Kookamunga but that doesn't mean they aren't on the same continent. There haven't been trips from Everest to the Mariana Trench and yet both extreme locations exist. The delusion that there are no such flights is no proof of any geographic claim. Why are you arguing from circuitous proxies?
While your pondering the answer to that question, you can go to Qantas' website and book a direct flight from Sydney to Johannesburg.
"We can still see too far."
What is too far? How many km is too far? You still haven't been forthcoming with your claim. You're being evasive. What are you trying to hide?
"You know as much about flying and how jets work as I do"
How flying works is irrelevant. How the camera (or human eyes) gets to a specific location and altitude is irrelevant to how far you expect to see when you get there. But you keep bringing up irrelevant issues to sidestep stating a clear claim that can be evaluated.
You mentioned 30k feet, but you never, ever mentioned precisely what you'd expect to see from such an altitude. Numbers, please.
Treaty? Link to it? What the name of it?
Enforced? By whom?
The treaty does not ban aviation flyovers in the area.
It is about exploration and exploiting Antarctica.
:: if circumpolar navigation were a thing, it would be done often in practice.
It is not done in practice due to ETOPS and other safety issue.
As to being shot down for trying to penetrate the ‘ice dome’, check out Quora and Twitter conversations with flat earthers.
https://brothke.medium.com/quora-banned-me-for-saying-the-earth-isnt-flat-9bd98010c09d
The earth is a triangle
Only on Purim. And Yerushalayim is the delicious filling.
Hence the song, "Ichlu et Yerushalayim ve gilu vah...."
It's a rhombus
Graph candle lighting times throughout the year and you get an elliptical shape -- the path of the earth around the sun.
I really hope most of the comments here are due to Purim coming next week. I had no idea there were still people who believed in a flat Earth. As David Oshie pointed out, the Greeks knew about a round Earth well over 2000 years ago. If you look up Aristarchus, Eratosthenes, and and Hipparchus, you'll find that they knew the circumference of the Earth to a surprisingly accurate value. They even knew the relative Earth-Moon to Earth-Sun distance all due to basic trigonometry and some out-of-the-box thinking and experimenting.
Flat earthers are the most interesting conspiracy theorists as it is so triviap to show they are incorrect. I still half believe thst they are all just trolls and go to sleep each night laughing about the people on the internet they have wound up.
I’ve just caught up on reading the comments, and my updated version of this theory includes that @Shimshon is actually a RNS sock-puppet created solely to show how stupid his opponents are.
(in case I have just violated Poe’s Law, to be clear that was not a serious claim but intended sarcastically)
All around the GLOBE
Very funny.
Emphasis on "around" or is it a round?
The answer is obvious!
Clearly, Hashem employs the well-attested phenomenon of k’fitzat haderech trick us into believing the distance between Johannesburg and Perth is shorter than it really is. QED.
On Quora, flat earthers have a strong presence, and will flag any attempt to disproved them as spam. It’s easy to get banned on Quora, as they have strong ‘be nice’ policy. And it is easy to violate that when dealing with moronic flat earthers.
https://brothke.medium.com/quora-banned-me-for-saying-the-earth-isnt-flat-9bd98010c09d
I am very disappointed in this post. It legitimizes the flat-earthers. I do beleive that we should be open for debate on every subject, but not on their terms. To discuss flight patterns regarding something as elementary as the shape of the earth is giving in to their narrative. Is 1 plus one also proved from flight patterns? Anyone can at any time call up someone on the other sidde of the globe at any time and determine that they see the sun at the same time at the opposite positin. That is 100% proof. The fact that these communcications now happen millions of times every day, and that the AllZmanim times are used constantly all over the globe multiplies this prooof by the billions.
Iam wriring this because I spoke to a Lakewood flat-Earther and he felt vet very legitimized by this entire conversation.
The essential error of "flat earth" belief is that what works for short distances, also works for long distances. It's only when distances become long -- a significant fraction of the diameter of the earth -- that the "flat earth" model fails.
"Celestial navigation" has been used for a long time (not decades, but centuries) as a reliable way to find a boat's position on the open sea, and to tell the navigator which way to steer the boat, to get to its destination. Well into the 20th century, it was also used in aircraft navigation.
Every calculation, and every astronomical datum that goes into celestial navigation, depends on the assumption of a (roughly) spherical Earth. That boats and airplanes get to their destinations, is pretty good evidence against a flat earth, and in favor of a spherical one.
Of course, understanding the calculations requires mathematical knowledge that goes beyond what's covered in yeshivah. So the argument I just made isn't likely to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced.
Charles
_Every calculation_ in celestial nav assumes a round earth.
Not weighing in on any specific conspiracy theory that is being pushed here, but I really wish that Shimshon and Cookie would stop calling everyone who disagrees with them "retards" etc. It lowers the level of conversation here. Even if you are absolutely convinced that every scientific theory in existence is wrong, calling your opponents "retards" is an automatic גריעותא. It shows that you have nothing to say other than insults. Other than the very offensive nature of the word "retard".
That being said, Shimshon has basically pushed 2 arguments: A treaty to prevent civilian exploration south of the arctic circle, and some unlikely seeming plane landings. He has thrown some wind speed into the mix. Everything else he has said has been "packaging". Ditto for Cookie. So for those of you who find conspiracies in all shadows, find suspicious coincidence in innocuous things, and haven't simply read wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence_for_the_spherical_shape_of_Earth), I urge you to read this comic: https://xkcd.com/481/
I believe that is all there is to say. You need only watch any responses to this comment (if there are any) - they will devoid of content, and mostly accusations of "retard".
I have nothing to say other than insults? One of the posters openly rooted for me to die, and Slifkin did nothing but make sarcastic retorts and ignore my serious questions challenging his position. Stop whining about hurt feelings and saying I find conspiracies in shadows. You're also full of s***.
"Lack of observed curvature"? If you get high enough, you see the curvature. Many hundreds, probably upward of a thousand, people have seen it with their own eyes (astronauts and high-altitude reconnaissance pilots). Billions more have seen it in pictures taken from space.
"The only argument I present on its own and not as a response is the lack of observed curvature"
You have referred to such an argument but haven't presented it. Where's the math?
"THE MATH IS NOT THE ARGUMENT."
But it is. It is. The math will tell which height the curve becomes perceivable. Obviously, it's not perceivable with your nose on the ground. Obviously, it's perceivable from the moon. But the math will tell whether it's perceivable from 30k feet.
And you haven't shown us the math.
Have you done the math?
Do you have the skills to do the math?
Did you ask them how they explain the different time zones?
Why is it relevant to point out that they are from Lakewood? Most Yeshiva people know the earth is round. Secondly, the Talmud in Avodah Zarah 42 clearly knew the earth to be round. It was the dark ages that digressed and forgot much previously known knowledge.
I do agree that almost Yeshivish believe that the world is spherical and that the solar system is heliocentric. However, if you ask them if the Gemara and Rishonim agreed, they will likely mistakenly assume that the answer is yes when that isn't the case. And there are definitely geocentrists like Bloch who advocate this position based on the Rishonim who were all geocentrists.
Almost all*
This reference has little to do with the shape of the earth. Unless we imagine that the author of that statement imagined that the earth could be shaped like a bird. See Pesachim 94a which can only be understood assuming a flat earth. Undoubtedly many members of chazal knew the earth to be spherical, but all or almost all the references in the Talmud are to a flat earth.
No idea what you are talking about. Mishnah says befairush if an idol is holding a globe is certainly Avodah Zarah. Tosafos says because it shows domination over the world by the idol holding a globe.
The immediately prior statement is that if the idol is holding a bird and the exact same reasoning is used: צפור שתופש את עצמו תחת כל העולם כולו כצפור: כדור שתופש את עצמו תחת כל העולם כולו ככדור. So this is very poor evidence that the author of this piece of gemara viewed the earth as a sphere. Tosafos do relate it to the shape of the earth, but via a yerushalmi that views the earth of consisting of a ball-shaped landmass in a bowl of water which is the worldwide ocean surrounding the land. This too is a variation on a flat earth; a spherical earth has no bowl of flat water surrounding a central landmass. It is true that this is often misquoted as indicating the understanding that the earth is spherical, but that is incorrect. And as I pointed out there are many other places in the Talmud where is it clear that a flat earth was simply assumed.
Total nonsense, a bird indicates hovering over the globe i.e. the world which means domination.
OK, that is a peshat. I'm not sure why not accepting it as certain is nonsense. What the gemera is saying is that holding an object indicates control. So it is certainly possible that the ball represents a globe. It is also possible, as pointed out by Tosafos, that it represents only the landmass, sunk into a flat ocean. Or there could be some other symbolism. OTOH, there are many, many gemaras which clearly indicate that the earth is flat. Have you looked at Pesachim 94a? 94b also indicates a flat earth (the water is warm at night because the sun passes under the earth warming it). All the descriptions of the sun hiding about behind the rakia at night also assume a flat earth. See https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/our-world-their-universe
Tosafos says the "Alexander something" (is he even Jewish?) saw the earth was curved by looking down from a tower, i.e., through observation. The Greeks thought the earth was curved as well. In any case, Tosafos was well after the Gemara . . .
Big nafka mina between Flat Earth and curved: When Adam haRishon lay down, did his feet meet his head?
See Chagigah 12a.
אָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב: אָדָם הָרִאשׁוֹן, מִסּוֹף הָעוֹלָם וְעַד סוֹפוֹ הָיָה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״לְמִן הַיּוֹם אֲשֶׁר בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אָדָם עַל הָאָרֶץ וּלְמִקְצֵה הַשָּׁמַיִם וְעַד קְצֵה הַשָּׁמָיִם״, כֵּיוָן שֶׁסָּרַח הִנִּיחַ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא יָדוֹ עָלָיו וּמִיעֲטוֹ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״וַתָּשֶׁת עָלַי כַּפֶּכָה״.
Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: The size of Adam the first man was from one end of the world to the other, as it is stated: “Since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other,” which indicates that he spanned the entire length of the world. Once he sinned, the Holy One, Blessed be He, placed His hand upon him and diminished him, as it states: “And laid Your hand upon me.”
And if the earth were round, how did he not fall off?
Obvious: Earth must be flat.
Where is this wall/rakia? Be as precise as possible.
So you refuse to tell us where you think the רקיע is. Why won't you tell us? Could it be that if you provided a precise location that is consistent with flat earth nonsense you'd necessary contradict Chazal.
The south pole is some 4000 miles south of Argentina. What do you think is 4000 miles south of Argentina? The רקיע?
You people are all falling for Slifkin's little game. It's all about discrediting any criticism of the covid shots by conflating it with people who believe the earth is flat. They are two separate subjects. It's true that people who are naturally skeptical of the establishment are more likely to be skeptical about other things, but in reality the two subjects have nothing to do with one another. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would never conflate the two, but would examine each on its own merits. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would also be skeptical of the official narrative about the shots, especially when the "crazy anti-vaxxers" have been vindicated in the eyes of all but the most stubborn. Slifkin can make fun of them all he wants, but he's in the extreme minority at this point, and losing more ground by the day.
Then again, Slifkin isn't really rational or scientific -- he's just an arrogant windbag with his own extreme biases, and he just can't admit he was very very wrong about the covid shots. So he writes a childish post conflating skepticism about the shots to flat earth.
Slifkin should be very concerned about what he might have done to himself and his family with these shots, as well as the responsibility he has if anyone took the shots because of him. Just because Slifkin and the yokels here make a joke out of everything doesn't mean it's a joke in real life.
Going to enjoy watching this Cookie crumble……
Going to enjoy watching this Cookie crumble……
You're a very sick person.
Of course. It's what he always does, and not just about Covid either, but on all left wing issues. It is genuinely amusing to me that someone who spends so much accusing others of narrow-mindedness or ignorance or any of a long list of fictitious horrible , is himself among the most closed-minded of public bloggers.
No, I don't.
You mock everyone who doesn't see things the way you do and you try to make them look stupid. That's all you ever do.
"NASA was right"
NASA is irrelevant. The earth's shape is determinable without the help of NASA and was proven long before the existence of NASA.
Just ask them to call someone in Australia and ask what time it is. If earth is flat they cannot have night when it's day here.