316 Comments

What's fascinating is that despite endless comments and nasty insults here, Shimshon has not actually addressed the argument of the post (he threw out a claim about faster winds but was unable to explain which direction they blow in, nor how they would even help given the flight path he seems to now be proposing.

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"Instead, they told me, they had started by becoming skeptical of medical science, and then proceeded to Earth science. I’ve seen other people take this path, and unfortunately this sort of conspiratorial thinking sometimes ends up with those who believe that the Rothschilds are controlling it all. Along with the total nonsensicality of it, this motivated me to give a shot at dissuading them."

That is what you wrote. Why is it nonsensical to be skeptical of the covid vaccines, or any other medical belief? Is it a religion? What is "medical science" anyway? Who gets to determine that? Fauci? The CDC? The New York Times? The government? Why is it nonsensical to be skeptical of any or all of them? It might be wrong in some cases to come to a different conclusion, but why is it nonsensical? Why are you allowed to be skeptical of Chazal, but we can't be skeptical of the CDC? And why are you afraid to answer simple, important questions like this, yet you just go on insulting the people who are skeptical? What is rational and scientific about you, anyway?

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Natan, I was never unable to answer your question about wind speed or direction. I even said I would get back to you. Your word choice perfectly reflects your stance. The videos I provided do address the wind speed and direction, as well as other factors. That being said, maybe I am right or wrong about these flights in particular, but others specifically address the subject in greater depth than interests me.

As I explained in another comment, my interest is seeing far. I study other aspects of the subject as I come across them, such as flights, time zones, etc. The weaknesses of the globe model are plainly evident. The lack of my ability to explain everything about what our realm is like is 1) reflective of me and not the general model and 2) our general limited ability to understand something that great expense and effort is taken to obscure and 3) dealing with retards who cannot process simple observations, but always have some thoughtless snarky response. That being said, I am impressed with the abilities of others and their tenacity in pursuing the subject. Your drive-by is nothing. I can address retards who talk as if they know the subject but clearly don't. But that is not my main interest. Seeing too far cuts right to the chase. We clearly can, which itself disproves the globe model as we are taught. As far as I am concerned, the rest is very persuasive illusion, whether through narrative, sophisticated media manipulation, green screen, and the like.

JTolan Media1's work on infrared photography and flat earth calculations inspired me. He also has a more serious engineering background than me, and brings copious math to the party to prove his point.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqjHW3sIVWspvEw9yRW_Hcw

He uses actual surveying equipment in some of his videos. Sorry guys, there is no accounting for curvature in engineering projects.

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Shimshon, I have a good idea. Let's have your friend with his 2 Bitcoin put his money where his mouth is and charter a commercial plane and fly it from Brazil to Australia via Antartica. You can load up the plane with all your conspiracy theory comrades, so we can get this settled for once and for all.

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He's not my friend. It's someone I know. Would you like to contact him to claim your prize?

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"Sorry guys, there is no accounting for curvature in engineering projects."

But there is. It is called geodetic surveying. Just repeating that this type of surveying doesn't exist, doesn't somehow erase its existence.

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Perhaps you can explain how it actually takes curvature into account, besides referring to magical black boxes and satellites. I am reading, but there is a lot of hand-waving going as to what it actually means. I suspect, reasonably, it's just a buzzword added for completeness when talking about new technology no one except the ones who developed it understand.

Are you in civil engineering, Jordan, or just retardedly regurgitating talking points?

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No, I'm not a civil engineer, but I have a physical sciences background and have worked in the physical sciences for my whole career.

Over reasonable separation distances (perhaps up to tens of km) one can approximate two plumb lines (a line from a given point to the Earth's center of gravity) as being parallel. They are not parallel, but for almost all short distance surveying cases, the angle between them is negligible for the purposes of engineering calculations, and surveyors use this as the basis for a flat reference plane relative to which elevations can be determined.

Over larger distances, the parallel plumb line approximation introduces too much error, and you can't accurately calculate elevations relative to a reference plane. Instead, you calculate elevations relative to a reference ellipsoid (called a geoid) -- a representation of a smooth "featureless Earth" with radii determined to sea level.

The geoid serves as the elevation baseline, and replaces the flat plane that would be used over short distances.

The location of the geoid in space is determined by GPS, which provides precise elevation numbers relative to the Earth's average sea level, and reference distances over a curved suface vs. a flat one. So in geodetic surveying, precise GPS receivers (which determine longitude, latitude, and elevation relative to the geoid) partly replace the traditional theodolites (which just determine angles between reference points and a plumb line) that are used in plane surveying.

Turnkey GPS receivers are not that expensive now, but you could even create your own with a $20 software defined radio plugged into your laptop and a $5 antenna capable of receiving at the GPS frequency (which is around 1.5 GHz, IIRC).

I hope this explanation is helpful.

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I can say the same about your refusing to answer simple questions about your stance on the vaccines after all this time. All you do is insult people who are skeptical about them. Your head is deep in the sand. You are not scientific or rational. You just insult people, and you only respond when you think you can make someone look stupid with a zinger.

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I’ve used that very logical aviation analogy to try to show flat earthers how aviation shows a non-flat earth. To which I’ve gotten replies that anyone who would try to fly the flat earth route would be shot down by the NATO Air Force. Aside from the fact that NATA doesn’t have an air force.

https://brothke.medium.com/a-simple-experiment-that-can-prove-the-earth-is-flat-b354ca12220f

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Ask a pilot next time you fly commercial.

There is an international treaty banning personal exploration north of 75 degrees and south of 60 degrees. It is enforced. If you attempt to go further north or south, you will be repelled, gently at first. And it would be by boat, as it is possible for individuals to own boats with the needed range, but not planes. Your logic is wanting.

There has never been an actual north-south circumnavigation of the earth, period.

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Antarctica is irrelevant. The earth was known to be a globe long before Antarctica was discovered.

There have been north-south circumnavigations, but that too is irrelevant since the earth was known to be round long before any circumnavigation.Your inability or obstinate refusal to travel the poles is no proof of anything.

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No there haven't. There have been trips from north to south and back. But no actual flights from, say, South Africa to Australia. Why wouldn't arch explorer Burt Rutan, who is known for all sorts of amazing aeronautical accomplishments, devote some effort to such a flight if it were possible but never done? Answer, because it cannot be done.

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"No there haven't."

It was done in 1965.

Maybe Rutan isn't as incredulous as you are. It doesn't matter. Rutan's personal standards of what he considers a waste of time, effort and money aren't a proof of any geographic claim.

There may be no direct roads from Asuza to Kookamunga but that doesn't mean they aren't on the same continent. There haven't been trips from Everest to the Mariana Trench and yet both extreme locations exist. The delusion that there are no such flights is no proof of any geographic claim. Why are you arguing from circuitous proxies?

While your pondering the answer to that question, you can go to Qantas' website and book a direct flight from Sydney to Johannesburg.

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What was done in 1965? Got a link?

Incredulous? Why wouldn't Rutan do a historic circumpolar around the globe navigation that has never been done before? He (his brother, really) did the usual east-west variety to much over the top acclaim. I remember him doing it in college. Ho hum. Really? This is rational to you? Sounds retarded to me.

We can still see too far Ephraim. You know as much about flying and how jets work as I do, which is not at all. I would be interested in such a flight to direct my camera to the south during the day, but it is otherwise not of interest. It doesn't actually prove anything, but provides comfort to the rationalist.

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"We can still see too far."

What is too far? How many km is too far? You still haven't been forthcoming with your claim. You're being evasive. What are you trying to hide?

"You know as much about flying and how jets work as I do"

How flying works is irrelevant. How the camera (or human eyes) gets to a specific location and altitude is irrelevant to how far you expect to see when you get there. But you keep bringing up irrelevant issues to sidestep stating a clear claim that can be evaluated.

You mentioned 30k feet, but you never, ever mentioned precisely what you'd expect to see from such an altitude. Numbers, please.

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Treaty? Link to it? What the name of it?

Enforced? By whom?

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Those are reasonable questions. There is not much on how the Antarctic Treaty System is enforced. But it does exist, and it is enforced. You can do further research if you are interested. I have heard this is not the only public case of enforcement.

As far as the north, I have heard a such a restriction there too, and will get back to you if I find something.

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The treaty does not ban aviation flyovers in the area.

It is about exploration and exploiting Antarctica.

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This man never set foot there. This is of course about to descend into retardery, because nothing will satisfy you. Whatever the treaty allows, if circumpolar navigation were a thing, it would be done often in practice.

And I never said anything about airplanes being shot down. Maybe you heard that from someone. Maybe you made it up as a retarded straw man.

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:: if circumpolar navigation were a thing, it would be done often in practice.

It is not done in practice due to ETOPS and other safety issue.

As to being shot down for trying to penetrate the ‘ice dome’, check out Quora and Twitter conversations with flat earthers.

https://brothke.medium.com/quora-banned-me-for-saying-the-earth-isnt-flat-9bd98010c09d

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The earth is a triangle

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Only on Purim. And Yerushalayim is the delicious filling.

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Hence the song, "Ichlu et Yerushalayim ve gilu vah...."

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It's a rhombus

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Graph candle lighting times throughout the year and you get an elliptical shape -- the path of the earth around the sun.

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I really hope most of the comments here are due to Purim coming next week. I had no idea there were still people who believed in a flat Earth. As David Oshie pointed out, the Greeks knew about a round Earth well over 2000 years ago. If you look up Aristarchus, Eratosthenes, and and Hipparchus, you'll find that they knew the circumference of the Earth to a surprisingly accurate value. They even knew the relative Earth-Moon to Earth-Sun distance all due to basic trigonometry and some out-of-the-box thinking and experimenting.

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Flat earthers are the most interesting conspiracy theorists as it is so triviap to show they are incorrect. I still half believe thst they are all just trolls and go to sleep each night laughing about the people on the internet they have wound up.

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I’ve just caught up on reading the comments, and my updated version of this theory includes that @Shimshon is actually a RNS sock-puppet created solely to show how stupid his opponents are.

(in case I have just violated Poe’s Law, to be clear that was not a serious claim but intended sarcastically)

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No. way. I am a much better writer than Natan. And smarter. Although I do believe he sockpuppets.

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What?!

The Flat Earth Society has followers all around the world!

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All around the GLOBE

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Very funny.

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Emphasis on "around" or is it a round?

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Go ahead. Show me.

I know one guy offering two BTC for hard proof of the globe. Good luck. You could use the money.

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The answer is obvious!

Clearly, Hashem employs the well-attested phenomenon of k’fitzat haderech trick us into believing the distance between Johannesburg and Perth is shorter than it really is. QED.

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Possible. Or, the wind at 2-300 mph gives an unaccounted-for boost. Among other details that are mere quibbles to scientists like Natan.

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On Quora, flat earthers have a strong presence, and will flag any attempt to disproved them as spam. It’s easy to get banned on Quora, as they have strong ‘be nice’ policy. And it is easy to violate that when dealing with moronic flat earthers.

https://brothke.medium.com/quora-banned-me-for-saying-the-earth-isnt-flat-9bd98010c09d

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I am very disappointed in this post. It legitimizes the flat-earthers. I do beleive that we should be open for debate on every subject, but not on their terms. To discuss flight patterns regarding something as elementary as the shape of the earth is giving in to their narrative. Is 1 plus one also proved from flight patterns? Anyone can at any time call up someone on the other sidde of the globe at any time and determine that they see the sun at the same time at the opposite positin. That is 100% proof. The fact that these communcications now happen millions of times every day, and that the AllZmanim times are used constantly all over the globe multiplies this prooof by the billions.

Iam wriring this because I spoke to a Lakewood flat-Earther and he felt vet very legitimized by this entire conversation.

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I never saw Star Wars in a public release, despite growing up in Beverly Hills. Instead, I only ever saw it at a private screening at 20th Century Fox, where my mom worked at the time. I was 10. I grew up in a very assimilated home, with a Christmas tree until I was nine, and as mentioned, pictures adorning my walls from NASA. I took two years of astronomy courses in high school. I worked in the space program. I was steeped in this world, and the world of entertainment.

Today, I have sons who have served in a charedi combat unit.

I grew up in a very different world than you.

The Charedim are correct. They are correct in clinging to our mesorah. They are correct in disconnecting to lesser or greater degree from a world that is saturated with illusion and manipulation, even while taking advantage of the fruits being built by that same world, because the true parts of the world don't depend on the false parts. You believe the illusion and decided it is important to spread it to people who are resistant to it, even if they don't know how to answer it sufficiently, or aren't educated to believe in it. You want to cry hypocrisy, when it is not. Sadly, they are correct too in their regarding you.

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"I took two years of astronomy courses in high school. I worked in the space program. I was steeped in this world"

Your C.V. is not an argument. It's irrelevant. Make a precise claim, and show us the math.

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The essential error of "flat earth" belief is that what works for short distances, also works for long distances. It's only when distances become long -- a significant fraction of the diameter of the earth -- that the "flat earth" model fails.

"Celestial navigation" has been used for a long time (not decades, but centuries) as a reliable way to find a boat's position on the open sea, and to tell the navigator which way to steer the boat, to get to its destination. Well into the 20th century, it was also used in aircraft navigation.

Every calculation, and every astronomical datum that goes into celestial navigation, depends on the assumption of a (roughly) spherical Earth. That boats and airplanes get to their destinations, is pretty good evidence against a flat earth, and in favor of a spherical one.

Of course, understanding the calculations requires mathematical knowledge that goes beyond what's covered in yeshivah. So the argument I just made isn't likely to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced.

Charles

_Every calculation_ in celestial nav assumes a round earth.

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Not weighing in on any specific conspiracy theory that is being pushed here, but I really wish that Shimshon and Cookie would stop calling everyone who disagrees with them "retards" etc. It lowers the level of conversation here. Even if you are absolutely convinced that every scientific theory in existence is wrong, calling your opponents "retards" is an automatic גריעותא. It shows that you have nothing to say other than insults. Other than the very offensive nature of the word "retard".

That being said, Shimshon has basically pushed 2 arguments: A treaty to prevent civilian exploration south of the arctic circle, and some unlikely seeming plane landings. He has thrown some wind speed into the mix. Everything else he has said has been "packaging". Ditto for Cookie. So for those of you who find conspiracies in all shadows, find suspicious coincidence in innocuous things, and haven't simply read wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence_for_the_spherical_shape_of_Earth), I urge you to read this comic: https://xkcd.com/481/

I believe that is all there is to say. You need only watch any responses to this comment (if there are any) - they will devoid of content, and mostly accusations of "retard".

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I don't know about Cookie, who seems rather angry. Also, Cookie, I like to comment on topic, not off.

I call people retard when they don't think; when they regurgitate falsehoods; etc. Not because I am convinced of anything. There is absolutely nothing intellectual going on here. It's vomit. Drivel. Garbage.

I presented the treaty not as an argument, but a response to someone who made a retarded argument.

The wind speed just blows Natan's retarded argument out of the water. Along with an entire book that documents 16 emergency landings that make zero sense on a globe. You won't read it. Because you are a retard.

I never spoke of conspiracies, though obviously they exist.

The only argument I present on its own and not as a response is the lack of observed curvature, which is easily verified. That's an argument, and one you don't even bother to include in your comments.

You can believe what you want. It doesn't make you smart or clever.

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"Lack of observed curvature"? If you get high enough, you see the curvature. Many hundreds, probably upward of a thousand, people have seen it with their own eyes (astronauts and high-altitude reconnaissance pilots). Billions more have seen it in pictures taken from space.

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You can see the lack of horizon drop off on the ground.

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"The only argument I present on its own and not as a response is the lack of observed curvature"

You have referred to such an argument but haven't presented it. Where's the math?

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Ephraim, you are too short for this ride. Are you in second grade. Do you not know trigonometry or how to do a Google search. THE MATH IS NOT THE ARGUMENT. The math describes how a sphere 8000 miles in diameter is in reality.

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"THE MATH IS NOT THE ARGUMENT."

But it is. It is. The math will tell which height the curve becomes perceivable. Obviously, it's not perceivable with your nose on the ground. Obviously, it's perceivable from the moon. But the math will tell whether it's perceivable from 30k feet.

And you haven't shown us the math.

Have you done the math?

Do you have the skills to do the math?

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I have nothing to say other than insults? One of the posters openly rooted for me to die, and Slifkin did nothing but make sarcastic retorts and ignore my serious questions challenging his position. Stop whining about hurt feelings and saying I find conspiracies in shadows. You're also full of s***.

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Did you ask them how they explain the different time zones?

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Why is it relevant to point out that they are from Lakewood? Most Yeshiva people know the earth is round. Secondly, the Talmud in Avodah Zarah 42 clearly knew the earth to be round. It was the dark ages that digressed and forgot much previously known knowledge.

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I do agree that almost Yeshivish believe that the world is spherical and that the solar system is heliocentric. However, if you ask them if the Gemara and Rishonim agreed, they will likely mistakenly assume that the answer is yes when that isn't the case. And there are definitely geocentrists like Bloch who advocate this position based on the Rishonim who were all geocentrists.

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Almost all*

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This reference has little to do with the shape of the earth. Unless we imagine that the author of that statement imagined that the earth could be shaped like a bird. See Pesachim 94a which can only be understood assuming a flat earth. Undoubtedly many members of chazal knew the earth to be spherical, but all or almost all the references in the Talmud are to a flat earth.

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No idea what you are talking about. Mishnah says befairush if an idol is holding a globe is certainly Avodah Zarah. Tosafos says because it shows domination over the world by the idol holding a globe.

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The immediately prior statement is that if the idol is holding a bird and the exact same reasoning is used: צפור שתופש את עצמו תחת כל העולם כולו כצפור: כדור שתופש את עצמו תחת כל העולם כולו ככדור. So this is very poor evidence that the author of this piece of gemara viewed the earth as a sphere. Tosafos do relate it to the shape of the earth, but via a yerushalmi that views the earth of consisting of a ball-shaped landmass in a bowl of water which is the worldwide ocean surrounding the land. This too is a variation on a flat earth; a spherical earth has no bowl of flat water surrounding a central landmass. It is true that this is often misquoted as indicating the understanding that the earth is spherical, but that is incorrect. And as I pointed out there are many other places in the Talmud where is it clear that a flat earth was simply assumed.

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Total nonsense, a bird indicates hovering over the globe i.e. the world which means domination.

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OK, that is a peshat. I'm not sure why not accepting it as certain is nonsense. What the gemera is saying is that holding an object indicates control. So it is certainly possible that the ball represents a globe. It is also possible, as pointed out by Tosafos, that it represents only the landmass, sunk into a flat ocean. Or there could be some other symbolism. OTOH, there are many, many gemaras which clearly indicate that the earth is flat. Have you looked at Pesachim 94a? 94b also indicates a flat earth (the water is warm at night because the sun passes under the earth warming it). All the descriptions of the sun hiding about behind the rakia at night also assume a flat earth. See https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/our-world-their-universe

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Tosafos says the "Alexander something" (is he even Jewish?) saw the earth was curved by looking down from a tower, i.e., through observation. The Greeks thought the earth was curved as well. In any case, Tosafos was well after the Gemara . . .

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Big nafka mina between Flat Earth and curved: When Adam haRishon lay down, did his feet meet his head?

See Chagigah 12a.

אָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב: אָדָם הָרִאשׁוֹן, מִסּוֹף הָעוֹלָם וְעַד סוֹפוֹ הָיָה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״לְמִן הַיּוֹם אֲשֶׁר בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אָדָם עַל הָאָרֶץ וּלְמִקְצֵה הַשָּׁמַיִם וְעַד קְצֵה הַשָּׁמָיִם״, כֵּיוָן שֶׁסָּרַח הִנִּיחַ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא יָדוֹ עָלָיו וּמִיעֲטוֹ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״וַתָּשֶׁת עָלַי כַּפֶּכָה״.

Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: The size of Adam the first man was from one end of the world to the other, as it is stated: “Since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other,” which indicates that he spanned the entire length of the world. Once he sinned, the Holy One, Blessed be He, placed His hand upon him and diminished him, as it states: “And laid Your hand upon me.”

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David, when I discovered the truth, I reached a higher level of appreciation and acceptance of everything that chazal say. If they were right about the earth, they are right about everything else, and we encounter something at odds with "science" it is us who don't understand, and not them.

By the way, there is plenty of evidence that the flood happened. It's everywhere.

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And if the earth were round, how did he not fall off?

Obvious: Earth must be flat.

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Because our realm is contained by a rakia. There is a wall, not an edge.

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Where is this wall/rakia? Be as precise as possible.

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What does our mesorah say about it?

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So you refuse to tell us where you think the רקיע is. Why won't you tell us? Could it be that if you provided a precise location that is consistent with flat earth nonsense you'd necessary contradict Chazal.

The south pole is some 4000 miles south of Argentina. What do you think is 4000 miles south of Argentina? The רקיע?

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You people are all falling for Slifkin's little game. It's all about discrediting any criticism of the covid shots by conflating it with people who believe the earth is flat. They are two separate subjects. It's true that people who are naturally skeptical of the establishment are more likely to be skeptical about other things, but in reality the two subjects have nothing to do with one another. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would never conflate the two, but would examine each on its own merits. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would also be skeptical of the official narrative about the shots, especially when the "crazy anti-vaxxers" have been vindicated in the eyes of all but the most stubborn. Slifkin can make fun of them all he wants, but he's in the extreme minority at this point, and losing more ground by the day.

Then again, Slifkin isn't really rational or scientific -- he's just an arrogant windbag with his own extreme biases, and he just can't admit he was very very wrong about the covid shots. So he writes a childish post conflating skepticism about the shots to flat earth.

Slifkin should be very concerned about what he might have done to himself and his family with these shots, as well as the responsibility he has if anyone took the shots because of him. Just because Slifkin and the yokels here make a joke out of everything doesn't mean it's a joke in real life.

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Cookie, Slifkin mocks Chazal who, according to him, hold by a flat earth. If he's mocking it, it's not about you or Covid.

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No, I don't.

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Yes, you do. Your monograph on the sun's path summarizes Chaza"l's cosmology as a variant of a flat earth, and then proceed to say that Chaza"l gave you license to say they were wrong and NASA was right, because Chaza"l said the Babylonians might have superior worldly wisdom than the Jews on certain specific matters. NASA is not Bavel, so an admittance of wrongness in one case doesn't not give you permission to assess their wrongness compared to NASA.

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"NASA was right"

NASA is irrelevant. The earth's shape is determinable without the help of NASA and was proven long before the existence of NASA.

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You mock everyone who doesn't see things the way you do and you try to make them look stupid. That's all you ever do.

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Going to enjoy watching this Cookie crumble……

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Going to enjoy watching this Cookie crumble……

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You're a very sick person.

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Of course. It's what he always does, and not just about Covid either, but on all left wing issues. It is genuinely amusing to me that someone who spends so much accusing others of narrow-mindedness or ignorance or any of a long list of fictitious horrible , is himself among the most closed-minded of public bloggers.

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