What's fascinating is that despite endless comments and nasty insults here, Shimshon has not actually addressed the argument of the post (he threw out a claim about faster winds but was unable to explain which direction they blow in, nor how they would even help given the flight path he seems to now be proposing.
I’ve used that very logical aviation analogy to try to show flat earthers how aviation shows a non-flat earth. To which I’ve gotten replies that anyone who would try to fly the flat earth route would be shot down by the NATO Air Force. Aside from the fact that NATA doesn’t have an air force.
I really hope most of the comments here are due to Purim coming next week. I had no idea there were still people who believed in a flat Earth. As David Oshie pointed out, the Greeks knew about a round Earth well over 2000 years ago. If you look up Aristarchus, Eratosthenes, and and Hipparchus, you'll find that they knew the circumference of the Earth to a surprisingly accurate value. They even knew the relative Earth-Moon to Earth-Sun distance all due to basic trigonometry and some out-of-the-box thinking and experimenting.
Flat earthers are the most interesting conspiracy theorists as it is so triviap to show they are incorrect. I still half believe thst they are all just trolls and go to sleep each night laughing about the people on the internet they have wound up.
Clearly, Hashem employs the well-attested phenomenon of k’fitzat haderech trick us into believing the distance between Johannesburg and Perth is shorter than it really is. QED.
On Quora, flat earthers have a strong presence, and will flag any attempt to disproved them as spam. It’s easy to get banned on Quora, as they have strong ‘be nice’ policy. And it is easy to violate that when dealing with moronic flat earthers.
I am very disappointed in this post. It legitimizes the flat-earthers. I do beleive that we should be open for debate on every subject, but not on their terms. To discuss flight patterns regarding something as elementary as the shape of the earth is giving in to their narrative. Is 1 plus one also proved from flight patterns? Anyone can at any time call up someone on the other sidde of the globe at any time and determine that they see the sun at the same time at the opposite positin. That is 100% proof. The fact that these communcications now happen millions of times every day, and that the AllZmanim times are used constantly all over the globe multiplies this prooof by the billions.
Iam wriring this because I spoke to a Lakewood flat-Earther and he felt vet very legitimized by this entire conversation.
I never saw Star Wars in a public release, despite growing up in Beverly Hills. Instead, I only ever saw it at a private screening at 20th Century Fox, where my mom worked at the time. I was 10. I grew up in a very assimilated home, with a Christmas tree until I was nine, and as mentioned, pictures adorning my walls from NASA. I took two years of astronomy courses in high school. I worked in the space program. I was steeped in this world, and the world of entertainment.
Today, I have sons who have served in a charedi combat unit.
I grew up in a very different world than you.
The Charedim are correct. They are correct in clinging to our mesorah. They are correct in disconnecting to lesser or greater degree from a world that is saturated with illusion and manipulation, even while taking advantage of the fruits being built by that same world, because the true parts of the world don't depend on the false parts. You believe the illusion and decided it is important to spread it to people who are resistant to it, even if they don't know how to answer it sufficiently, or aren't educated to believe in it. You want to cry hypocrisy, when it is not. Sadly, they are correct too in their regarding you.
The essential error of "flat earth" belief is that what works for short distances, also works for long distances. It's only when distances become long -- a significant fraction of the diameter of the earth -- that the "flat earth" model fails.
"Celestial navigation" has been used for a long time (not decades, but centuries) as a reliable way to find a boat's position on the open sea, and to tell the navigator which way to steer the boat, to get to its destination. Well into the 20th century, it was also used in aircraft navigation.
Every calculation, and every astronomical datum that goes into celestial navigation, depends on the assumption of a (roughly) spherical Earth. That boats and airplanes get to their destinations, is pretty good evidence against a flat earth, and in favor of a spherical one.
Of course, understanding the calculations requires mathematical knowledge that goes beyond what's covered in yeshivah. So the argument I just made isn't likely to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced.
Charles
_Every calculation_ in celestial nav assumes a round earth.
Not weighing in on any specific conspiracy theory that is being pushed here, but I really wish that Shimshon and Cookie would stop calling everyone who disagrees with them "retards" etc. It lowers the level of conversation here. Even if you are absolutely convinced that every scientific theory in existence is wrong, calling your opponents "retards" is an automatic גריעותא. It shows that you have nothing to say other than insults. Other than the very offensive nature of the word "retard".
That being said, Shimshon has basically pushed 2 arguments: A treaty to prevent civilian exploration south of the arctic circle, and some unlikely seeming plane landings. He has thrown some wind speed into the mix. Everything else he has said has been "packaging". Ditto for Cookie. So for those of you who find conspiracies in all shadows, find suspicious coincidence in innocuous things, and haven't simply read wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence_for_the_spherical_shape_of_Earth), I urge you to read this comic: https://xkcd.com/481/
I believe that is all there is to say. You need only watch any responses to this comment (if there are any) - they will devoid of content, and mostly accusations of "retard".
Why is it relevant to point out that they are from Lakewood? Most Yeshiva people know the earth is round. Secondly, the Talmud in Avodah Zarah 42 clearly knew the earth to be round. It was the dark ages that digressed and forgot much previously known knowledge.
Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: The size of Adam the first man was from one end of the world to the other, as it is stated: “Since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other,” which indicates that he spanned the entire length of the world. Once he sinned, the Holy One, Blessed be He, placed His hand upon him and diminished him, as it states: “And laid Your hand upon me.”
You people are all falling for Slifkin's little game. It's all about discrediting any criticism of the covid shots by conflating it with people who believe the earth is flat. They are two separate subjects. It's true that people who are naturally skeptical of the establishment are more likely to be skeptical about other things, but in reality the two subjects have nothing to do with one another. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would never conflate the two, but would examine each on its own merits. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would also be skeptical of the official narrative about the shots, especially when the "crazy anti-vaxxers" have been vindicated in the eyes of all but the most stubborn. Slifkin can make fun of them all he wants, but he's in the extreme minority at this point, and losing more ground by the day.
Then again, Slifkin isn't really rational or scientific -- he's just an arrogant windbag with his own extreme biases, and he just can't admit he was very very wrong about the covid shots. So he writes a childish post conflating skepticism about the shots to flat earth.
Slifkin should be very concerned about what he might have done to himself and his family with these shots, as well as the responsibility he has if anyone took the shots because of him. Just because Slifkin and the yokels here make a joke out of everything doesn't mean it's a joke in real life.
What's fascinating is that despite endless comments and nasty insults here, Shimshon has not actually addressed the argument of the post (he threw out a claim about faster winds but was unable to explain which direction they blow in, nor how they would even help given the flight path he seems to now be proposing.
I’ve used that very logical aviation analogy to try to show flat earthers how aviation shows a non-flat earth. To which I’ve gotten replies that anyone who would try to fly the flat earth route would be shot down by the NATO Air Force. Aside from the fact that NATA doesn’t have an air force.
https://brothke.medium.com/a-simple-experiment-that-can-prove-the-earth-is-flat-b354ca12220f
The earth is a triangle
Graph candle lighting times throughout the year and you get an elliptical shape -- the path of the earth around the sun.
I really hope most of the comments here are due to Purim coming next week. I had no idea there were still people who believed in a flat Earth. As David Oshie pointed out, the Greeks knew about a round Earth well over 2000 years ago. If you look up Aristarchus, Eratosthenes, and and Hipparchus, you'll find that they knew the circumference of the Earth to a surprisingly accurate value. They even knew the relative Earth-Moon to Earth-Sun distance all due to basic trigonometry and some out-of-the-box thinking and experimenting.
Flat earthers are the most interesting conspiracy theorists as it is so triviap to show they are incorrect. I still half believe thst they are all just trolls and go to sleep each night laughing about the people on the internet they have wound up.
The answer is obvious!
Clearly, Hashem employs the well-attested phenomenon of k’fitzat haderech trick us into believing the distance between Johannesburg and Perth is shorter than it really is. QED.
On Quora, flat earthers have a strong presence, and will flag any attempt to disproved them as spam. It’s easy to get banned on Quora, as they have strong ‘be nice’ policy. And it is easy to violate that when dealing with moronic flat earthers.
https://brothke.medium.com/quora-banned-me-for-saying-the-earth-isnt-flat-9bd98010c09d
I am very disappointed in this post. It legitimizes the flat-earthers. I do beleive that we should be open for debate on every subject, but not on their terms. To discuss flight patterns regarding something as elementary as the shape of the earth is giving in to their narrative. Is 1 plus one also proved from flight patterns? Anyone can at any time call up someone on the other sidde of the globe at any time and determine that they see the sun at the same time at the opposite positin. That is 100% proof. The fact that these communcications now happen millions of times every day, and that the AllZmanim times are used constantly all over the globe multiplies this prooof by the billions.
Iam wriring this because I spoke to a Lakewood flat-Earther and he felt vet very legitimized by this entire conversation.
I never saw Star Wars in a public release, despite growing up in Beverly Hills. Instead, I only ever saw it at a private screening at 20th Century Fox, where my mom worked at the time. I was 10. I grew up in a very assimilated home, with a Christmas tree until I was nine, and as mentioned, pictures adorning my walls from NASA. I took two years of astronomy courses in high school. I worked in the space program. I was steeped in this world, and the world of entertainment.
Today, I have sons who have served in a charedi combat unit.
I grew up in a very different world than you.
The Charedim are correct. They are correct in clinging to our mesorah. They are correct in disconnecting to lesser or greater degree from a world that is saturated with illusion and manipulation, even while taking advantage of the fruits being built by that same world, because the true parts of the world don't depend on the false parts. You believe the illusion and decided it is important to spread it to people who are resistant to it, even if they don't know how to answer it sufficiently, or aren't educated to believe in it. You want to cry hypocrisy, when it is not. Sadly, they are correct too in their regarding you.
The essential error of "flat earth" belief is that what works for short distances, also works for long distances. It's only when distances become long -- a significant fraction of the diameter of the earth -- that the "flat earth" model fails.
"Celestial navigation" has been used for a long time (not decades, but centuries) as a reliable way to find a boat's position on the open sea, and to tell the navigator which way to steer the boat, to get to its destination. Well into the 20th century, it was also used in aircraft navigation.
Every calculation, and every astronomical datum that goes into celestial navigation, depends on the assumption of a (roughly) spherical Earth. That boats and airplanes get to their destinations, is pretty good evidence against a flat earth, and in favor of a spherical one.
Of course, understanding the calculations requires mathematical knowledge that goes beyond what's covered in yeshivah. So the argument I just made isn't likely to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced.
Charles
_Every calculation_ in celestial nav assumes a round earth.
Not weighing in on any specific conspiracy theory that is being pushed here, but I really wish that Shimshon and Cookie would stop calling everyone who disagrees with them "retards" etc. It lowers the level of conversation here. Even if you are absolutely convinced that every scientific theory in existence is wrong, calling your opponents "retards" is an automatic גריעותא. It shows that you have nothing to say other than insults. Other than the very offensive nature of the word "retard".
That being said, Shimshon has basically pushed 2 arguments: A treaty to prevent civilian exploration south of the arctic circle, and some unlikely seeming plane landings. He has thrown some wind speed into the mix. Everything else he has said has been "packaging". Ditto for Cookie. So for those of you who find conspiracies in all shadows, find suspicious coincidence in innocuous things, and haven't simply read wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence_for_the_spherical_shape_of_Earth), I urge you to read this comic: https://xkcd.com/481/
I believe that is all there is to say. You need only watch any responses to this comment (if there are any) - they will devoid of content, and mostly accusations of "retard".
Did you ask them how they explain the different time zones?
Why is it relevant to point out that they are from Lakewood? Most Yeshiva people know the earth is round. Secondly, the Talmud in Avodah Zarah 42 clearly knew the earth to be round. It was the dark ages that digressed and forgot much previously known knowledge.
Big nafka mina between Flat Earth and curved: When Adam haRishon lay down, did his feet meet his head?
See Chagigah 12a.
אָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב: אָדָם הָרִאשׁוֹן, מִסּוֹף הָעוֹלָם וְעַד סוֹפוֹ הָיָה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״לְמִן הַיּוֹם אֲשֶׁר בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אָדָם עַל הָאָרֶץ וּלְמִקְצֵה הַשָּׁמַיִם וְעַד קְצֵה הַשָּׁמָיִם״, כֵּיוָן שֶׁסָּרַח הִנִּיחַ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא יָדוֹ עָלָיו וּמִיעֲטוֹ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״וַתָּשֶׁת עָלַי כַּפֶּכָה״.
Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: The size of Adam the first man was from one end of the world to the other, as it is stated: “Since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other,” which indicates that he spanned the entire length of the world. Once he sinned, the Holy One, Blessed be He, placed His hand upon him and diminished him, as it states: “And laid Your hand upon me.”
You people are all falling for Slifkin's little game. It's all about discrediting any criticism of the covid shots by conflating it with people who believe the earth is flat. They are two separate subjects. It's true that people who are naturally skeptical of the establishment are more likely to be skeptical about other things, but in reality the two subjects have nothing to do with one another. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would never conflate the two, but would examine each on its own merits. A "rationalist" and a "scientist" would also be skeptical of the official narrative about the shots, especially when the "crazy anti-vaxxers" have been vindicated in the eyes of all but the most stubborn. Slifkin can make fun of them all he wants, but he's in the extreme minority at this point, and losing more ground by the day.
Then again, Slifkin isn't really rational or scientific -- he's just an arrogant windbag with his own extreme biases, and he just can't admit he was very very wrong about the covid shots. So he writes a childish post conflating skepticism about the shots to flat earth.
Slifkin should be very concerned about what he might have done to himself and his family with these shots, as well as the responsibility he has if anyone took the shots because of him. Just because Slifkin and the yokels here make a joke out of everything doesn't mean it's a joke in real life.