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Ezra Brand's avatar

Great post, as usual. Just want to nitpick on your intro:

>"Until recently, the worst explanation of a Torah verse that I ever heard was from a casually-Orthodox Jew some years back. He justified not being careful to follow halacha on the grounds that the Torah says, regarding observing the mitzvot, Ve-chai bahem, “And you shall live by them” - which he explained to mean that you have to live a life, and you can’t live life properly if you’re keeping all the mitzvot. Which is, of course, removing the entire point of the verse."

In fact, this "casually-Orthodox Jew" is assuming the standard well-known Talmudic interpretation of the verse:

https://www.sefaria.org.il/Yoma.85b.3

רבי שמעון בן מנסיא אומר: ״ושמרו בני ישראל את השבת״, אמרה תורה: חלל עליו שבת אחת כדי שישמור שבתות הרבה. אמר רב יהודה אמר שמואל: אי הואי התם, הוה אמינא דידי עדיפא מדידהו: ״וחי בהם״ — ולא שימות בהם.

Ed. Steinzaltz translation and explanation:

"Rabbi Shimon ben Menasya said: It is stated: “And the children of Israel shall keep Shabbat, to observe Shabbat” (Exodus 31:16). The Torah said: Desecrate one Shabbat on his behalf so he will observe many Shabbatot. Rav Yehuda said that Shmuel said: If I would have been there among those Sages who debated this question, I would have said that my proof is preferable to theirs, as it states: “You shall keep My statutes and My ordinances, which a person shall do and live by them” (Leviticus 18:5), and not that he should die by them. In all circumstances, one must take care not to die as a result of fulfilling the mitzvot."

To put it in academic terms, this rabbinic interpretation is antinomian, meaning, used to allow for behaviors that go against halacha. Exactly the way your interlocutor was using it, to not follow halacha 100 percent

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michael stern's avatar

There may be other discontinuities (polite word) in the Charedi approach.

1 An alleged crook is at or towards the top of a charedi party. What does that show about their Torah values in practice ? In the non-Jewish world business directors have to resign as soon as improprieties are alleged.

2 In the controversial legislation which led up to the crisis I understand that the charedim wanted to reduce the required age at which people were allowed to leave learning and go out to work. The "chilonim" wanted to leave the longer period required for staying in learning in place. So charedim apparently wanted less learning (a shorter obligation). And the chilonim wanted a longer obligation.

So who are the true supporters of learning - those who want less or those who want more ?

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