Brilliant. This is something that has bothered me for some time. During the height of the war, over a year ago a young Haredi schnorrer came into our minyan in South Jerusalem asking for money. (This is a common occurence.) As I was leaving shul to go to work, I simply looked him in the eye and said that I had already donated two sons to defend him and his family. He had no answer for that.
As someone who lives in tri-state area. And encounters hundreds of chareidim who make the trip to collect for their familes instead of getting a job.
It makes me sad for the individual and upset at the leaders for creating such a system, of degrading the human being.
They created a system where the worst thing in the world is to get a job - and be productive.
A person at his core is meant to provide.
When he’s not, there is an inherent kind of dissonance of his whole existence.
Just look at the faces of these collectors trudging down Main streets throughout the tri-state area, at 2 PM with a few shopping bags, and a sun beaten hat and jacket that’s turned brown.
They look so lost as they wander around aimlessly with no point .
It’s ironic how the chareidim claim to have “the way” of life, yet when you meet the individuals, although they will claim they are better and they are the reason we all exist. They know that it’s all lies.
Probably the saddest, most disturbing site is seeing the teenagers come over to Schnorr.
Just go to Evergreen in Lakewood on a Friday afternoon and you’ll see countless Israeli chareidi teenagers who couldn’t fit the Mold in Yeshiva.
So instead of getting a job or going to the army, they will come to America and beg outside of supermarkets
They will take the money and go to Atlantic City or they’ll go to prostitutes
All, that is fine as long as they don’t get a job God forbid, or hashem yirachem go to the IDF.
What baffles me most about the chareidim is how things that are not even minhagim are the basis for ignoring many fundamental mitzvahs asey in the Torah.
Now that the Sefardi Breslov moved into the meah shearim, a lot of the teens there come to America to collect as well. I guess they got influenced by the culture.
It’s really sad.
At any given day, Lakewood has hundreds of these guys.
They stroll around all Shuls, even banging down doors on offices.
It took me a while to realize that "meshulachim" is a misnomer, using an old term (collectors on behalf of the yishuv) for something completely different (collecting for oneself, i.e. no shlichut).
A while ago, I spoke to several mishluchem about their coming to America to collect, and this is what I was enlightened to. This goes back several years, so I'm not sure if this still applies or the amounts.
Two families get together and arrange a shidduch (match). Mazel Tov - envey hagefen V'envey Hagefen!!! There is no problem with the actual wedding, as there are many organizations that will make the wedding at a very reasonable price.
HERE IS WHAT THEY ARE REALLY DOING:
They need a home for the young couple, and the down payment is say $30,000. That’s the amount they need to come up with. (the couple will somehow pay the mortgage -as the wife is forced to work to survive). Each father takes upon himself his half, then each one comes around to collect and raise his $15,000. I asked them how they can collect $15,000 a big number?. They said yes. Here is how, they collect every morning and evenings in shuls Then, at night, they go to the homes of known wealthy people who have an open-door policy. This is how it goes in these homes, it depends on how well they can convince, and play the part of a poor man and hit the givers heart. They get anywhere from $36 to $180., Then they travel to different towns around New York - doing it all over again.
This $15,000, they informed me, takes approximately 4-6 months to raise. They did a simple calculation: about $200 a day in shuls with a dollar or $0.50 = $1,000 a week. After covering their expenses, it’s easy to see how they can end up with $15,000.
Here’s what I figured out. People in America are paying for most weddings aka HOMES in that community in Israel and we don’t even realize it. Lets look at it from our part - example, if we give $20-$40 a day during davening (prayers) to these fellows, depending on what you give, we are contributing roughly $6,000 to $8,000 per person -
$30 a day x 250 days =$7,000., this is just in the synagogue. In other words, every 4-5 people just paid for a spanking brand new apartment in Israel and this is EVERY YEAR!
Look around—do you have relatives or children who don’t own a home and are working hard to afford one? If so, it might be much better to give that money to your relatives, than to others who don’t work a day in their lives, and are using this method to get a home. (then the next generation does the same) .Many collectors bragged they married off 8 children in this way. They use the term Hachnosas Kallah, they fold their palms in front in each other looking serious - because if they said they were collecting for an apartment in Kiryat Sefer, how much do you think they could raise?
So, my idea is - when someone puts out their hand for a donation, you are obligated to give - just give a small token like a quarter. Try it - and these days many collectors will even show their upright palm and refuse the charity you want to give. These quarters will go a long way for you . However, you offered to give!
Just make sure you do indeed give, (even more then you could) to real tzdukahs, and to people that are trying to help themselves. It is your "obligation to Hashem" for the money he gave you , to give Tzdukah to the right places.
There's a guy outside the mir who collects money for his mortgages. He owns ten apartments, making him far richer than the parents of the bochrim. But he needs to pay his bills and he has no job so he collects. Feh.
I ask if he or she is buying an apartment for the couple. If yes, I don't give. I cannot buy a house myself, why should I give to you? Many are not buying apartments, and there are also those who used to work but cannot due to injury. Those I try to give to.
There's one issue: they need to pay for their family and feed them, which needs to be covered. Some collectors have apartments they rent out, like the guy outside the mir. Other people aren't so fortunate.
All that notwithstanding, the brave thing that WE do is send our kids to the army. Go down the checklist to make sure she hasn't forgotten anything - diskit, gun, wallet, kumta... Drive her to the bus station, give her a kiss and a hug, send her off.
I usually agree with you, but on this I do not. The Charedi poor and the Charedi institutions are not to blame. Ultimately, it's a top down society. It all comes from the Gedolei Torah and those who influence them. Your average yeshiva bochur, even rebbe and yeshiva, have very little power to upend the system. We can try to educate them, and maybe one day revolution will come from the bottom... but to punish them by withholding tzedakah when they are products of a system is too far. I don't think this plan would work... but even if it would, I don't think the ends justify the means.
One day they are going to wake up to the harsh financial realities of life and realize that they need to make a parnasa. The sooner that day comes, the better for them.
I think it's true to some degree, but it's also wishful thinking the way you seem to be applying it. They believe they are the spiritual successors of our ancestors from the Ghettos in Europe. Just like our ancestors lived in abject poverty, they will be too to live up to what they believe are the Torah's ideals. The only way the poverty will change them, is if the poverty will change the Gedolim. Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. But withholding tzedakah from door to door collectors is not going to in any way achieve that goal, and it will only push our collective needs further away from each other. And even if it does make a tiny dent, refusing to give tzedakah is a big deal, and I don't think in any way the ends justify the means. It will also cause yeshivos to suffer. Even if it does pave the way for Gedolim to change their attitude in the near or far future, is it really fair that we are choosing these yeshivos as the sacrifices to achieve our goal? Like I said, I don't think the ends, as good and true as they are, justify the means. Let God punish the innocents to promote national change. That's not our domain.
Withholding tzedakah is not "punishing" - unless you are Elon Musk, you presumably have a limited amount of charity you can give. The wife of a miluimnik, or for that matter a knitted-kipa kollel student, is not less deserving than a charedi avrech. The decision to whom to give is a value judgement.
I agree partially. When it comes to deciding where you are proactively giving tzedakah, then yeah, it's a zero sum game. What you give to one you can't give to someone else. I'm okay with choosing yeshivos that match your hashkafic views. But when it comes to people coming to the door, you're usually not doing a cheshbon, if I give 1 or 5 or 20 shekels here, then I'm not giving there. In that case, choosing not to give for hashkafic reasons is taking a punishing stance.
It's not punishing; it's refusing to enable destructive behavior. Just like I wouldn't give an addict money to buy drugs. In fact it's a punishment to perpetuate the lifestyle rather than helping poor people become self-sufficient. But don't take my word for it: see Rambam
While the gedolim live in poverty, the gedolims handlers do not. They make a pretty penny, as Yanky Kanievsky demonstrates. That will never change because they reap the benefits..
I happen to agree with R Slifkin here. If the small Rosh Kollels and small Yeshivos couldn't make ends meet, that would upend the system, the same way Lev Tahor fell apart after they lost their backers. The only issue is that it is unlikely to happen.
I think this is true. The Derech Hashem points out that mans inherent nature is to work for oneself and one feels disgusted taking handouts. (This is claimed to be the whole reason for Olam hazeh). If that is true, then Chareidim who do not work will have deep inner discomfort.
They are not taking handout, They are helping K'lal Yisroel.!!!
Like a collector told me , he came to give me the ZICHUS to help K'lal Yisroel and something like up lifting the entire world etc. He really believed it and was disappointed I only gave him one dollar.
My taking on this is ---if a person puts out his hand, you should give, as we want Hashem to give us with no questions asked. However how much is another thing, that is where we are the deciders. In shul I give quarters to these guys, and if he came to my home, he gets a whole dollar.
I don't think that is completely true. None of the gedolim say straight out that you're not allowed to get a job, and working charedim are considered part of the community. (Not to mention that most of the Chassidim do work).
I agree with you partially. When I choose to proactively give tzedaka somewhere, I will choose institutions that are more in line with my hashkafah. But I'm not going to say no collectors, especially around Purim time, just because we disagree. Like I said before, I don't think it will work. It will probably have the opposite effect, create even more animosity and distance. But even if it would work, I don't think the ends justify the means. Tzedaka is an important mitzvah, even to support Torah institutions, and I don't think that mitzvah stops just because their boys don't share the burden of the army. Plus it's unfairly punishing boys and rebbeim that aren't able to control what the top is instructing.
Perhaps the yeshiva students can't control what the fat cats at the top of the yeshivah pecking order are instructing them. Still, they are not mindless robots. They are responsible for their individual decisions, such as avoiding military service. They need to be held accountable. If the status quo becomes unsustainable, they will exert upwards pressure for positive change.
What you say is logical, but I think it's an exaggeration. I don't think they are mindless robots, no more than we are mindless robots when it comes to kashrus or Shabbos. Other then pikuach nefesh, we will subject ourselves to abject poverty to hold those ideals sacred. Are we mindless robots? No, we chose our values. They chose their values of loyalty and obedience to Daas Torah. Obviously, we think they are extreme to a fault, especially when it comes at the expense of others, but that's kind of beyond their control once they have chosen a lifetime of adherence to those values.
In that regard, I don't think it's their fault. They can't just break out of their values. The change has to come out on top. Unless, like you say, maybe we can forced them financially to admit their values are unsustainable. But is that a path we want to take? To withhold tzedakah, to punish them, to force them into poverty, when they are ingrained in a system that's being dictated to them from the top? I stand by what I said... I don't think it will work... but even if it does, the ends do not justify the means.
With respect, I disagree. withholding funds is not "punishment", it is a reality check. It is refusing to enable them to continue an unsustainable lifestyle that locks them and their family into a life of poverty and dependence. In addition, (forgive my choice of words) their parasitic lifestyle is a willful choice, not beyond their control.
Reminded of a story of one of the old world Rosh Yeshivas that used to go around for money in the US. You could either give him a dollar, or pledge 15 minutes of Torah, which he would diligently write down. Never saw something like this in person. At least he was serious about it.
This approach fundamentally misunderstands the charedi perspective. When someone approaches a charedi person collecting for their yeshiva with these arguments, they're immediately categorized as 'someone who doesn't understand our worldview.' This is similar to how you, Dr. Slifkin, might react if someone tried to convince you that modern orthodoxy threatens authentic Judaism.
This is how human psychology works - we categorize contradictory views as misunderstandings rather than engaging with them. If you disagree with funding charedi yeshivas, that's entirely your choice. No one is forcing you to donate. There's a significant difference between requesting donations (even persistently) and compulsion.
While I disagree with your position, I believe even more strongly that this confrontational approach won't foster meaningful dialogue or change. Instead, it deepens divisions within our community at a time when mutual respect and understanding are desperately needed.
Another fantastic post, I was wondering what your approach would be to charadi institutions in the diaspora? On the one hand they have no obligation to the army, on the other they are feeding into a society that champions the same aims as charadim in isreal. The issue of self perpetuating poverty and then becoming reliant on the “modern” or centrist orthodox bears similarity however it isn’t as contentious as the draft debate. Please share your thoughts on this, thanks
Interesting question. I think that your point about them feeding into a society with warped values is correct. Plus, in general, I think that tzedakah should be given to institutions that believe in supporting Israel physically and materially.
I think you should clarify in the subtitle you are referring to those collecting for learning. I imagine that a chareidi who needs money for cancer or extremely poverty for example deserves to get money even if he doesn't serve in the army.
It seems like you’re passively aggressively trying to make Rabbi Slifken look cruel.
As aside why do you always feel like you have to defend the chareidim from constructive criticism.
They are not the underdog - there’s nothing wrong with pointing out legitimate problems with a large fraction of Jews that claimed to have a monopoly on Judaism.
Seems like you’re never got traumatized from them and that’s beautiful. But are many amongst us especially the ones that grew up in the community (like me) that have extreme religious traumas from these people.
It is extremely validating to see someone pointed out what’s wrong .
Probably the third sentence. I do think he's somewhat cruel, unfortunately. It's not something I used to think.
I absolutely do not feel that one has to - if every post was like this on the blog I would post no defense. This post is eminently reasonable and fair. (Have you gone through my blog archives? I absolutely do not defend Chareidim from constructive criticism. The thing which I've criticized was the tone and obsessiveness, not the actual point. I've been very consistent on that because I do agree that the way the Chareidi society is set up right now is absolutely wrong. The only thing I would say is that for this to be fixed, the army needs to make changes to show they are serious about meeting their religious needs. If that happens, draft all but those actually studying to be clergy.)
Guilty as charged - I have only seems your comments here, and built an opinion from that.
Looking forward to your posts!
As far as the army being serious to the chareidi way of life.
I don’t see the two ever coinciding .
Chareidi way of life - is not frum life.
It’s a new way of dealing with a new reality . Specifically a reaction to the creation of the state of Israel.
Frum Jews throughout the millennia - would be considered serving a different god in the eye of current chareidim.
Long term learning, Daas Torah, prioritizing politics above all. Are all very new phenomenons that did not exist throughout Galus.
Chareidim are trying to stay separate - while the beauty of Judaism is to be inclusive.
I think the real fear of the army is not spiritual but political. And maybe even deeper, people will see that this way of life is not in indicative of God’s will.
As far as Rabbi slifkin, I have been reading his post since the start of the war. I wouldn’t call him evil or hateful or spiteful.
This is an absolute necessary awareness that has to be brought up .
Maybe because he got hurt in a deep way from this specific fear - fear of “outside influence”, he is triggered and can see things that others are somewhat oblivious to.
But I don’t think that takes away from the true and reality of his posts .
Not sure why this post would be hateful - but advocating not to help or donate money to anyone but yeshivas (a position taken by the leaders of Degel political party) are not hateful?
Bear in mind that everyone in Israel has health insurance, underwritten by the government. When you see a plea for money to treat illness, it is not being honest, or at least not completely honest. If there is actual illness involved, the need is likely for some ancillary matter, or for extra treatment not approved by the HMO.
That's what I meant by "ancillary." But when Ametican Jews hear such things, they automatically think, "Oh, he has no health insurance" when every Israeli does, by law.
Nuchum - you are 10% right, if Israel does not do that rare but approved treatment in Israel, they will fly him aboard and pay for the total treatment. Not just that.... they pay for a companion to go with you, all expenses paid!
I watched a friend of mine, who used to give thousands to these guys that came around with pictures of their sick child, he had a a very soft heart complete with loads of money.
One day I told him this, he did not believe me at all, but said he knows a person in Israel that would be honest with him and tell him the truth.
2 weeks later he told me in shul with a heavy heart that what I told him I was completely true.
After that, he asked people who came to him, about this and they used excuses they want the best doctors in the world. Israel is a backward country that does not have good doctors. would you let your chid C"V go to these doctors etc.
My friend said HIS medical plan also restricts which doctor he can use - go figure.
And the truth may be somewhere in the middle. Extra insurance is not that expensive given that it merely supplements. However, some of these extra treatments are experimental or of limited efficacy. I checked into one of those appeals and discovered that the treatment had a very low success rate, something like 12%. (And the definition of success meant surviving for a couple years.)
Rabbi, I mostly agree with you here: but I have a question, which I hope you'll try to answer. Some organizations try to square this circle by putting on a se'u'da or by sending out shlach manot; as an outreach activity. It's not really going to poor people per se; but rather bringing people to the mosdot to do the Purim mitzvot. I am contributing to such an organization this year; because I gave a promise and feel I can't back out. But I am wondering whether this is really something that should be encouraged or not. Any thoughts?
I don't really understand the situation. Are you paying to fund kiruv activities so that people who don't keep mitzvot can experience keeping mitzvot for a day? Are you paying an excessive price for a sit down meal with the excess price effectively being a donation to whatever the organization does?
Natan. Doesn't your argument run into the תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם vs מצוות שבגופו scenario discussed in הלכה where it is clear that one cannot substitute Torah learning for obligations?
I'm asking about the mechanics of what you suggest, not the philosophical rationale behind the approach.
Talmud Torah ki'neged kilom ( Torah learning is against everything) is only that the mitzvah of Torah learning, you have to use all your facilities to do so. Doing other mitzvahs you can it do while thinking of other thing and doesn't evolve everything else with you. Each other mitzvah uses only a part of your body, while learning Torah you use your mind - and as in a mind you cannot think of 2 thing at the same time. This means you are using your entire existence to do this mitzvah.
However every mitzvah is just as as good and noble as the next mitzvah. There is no "better" or 'higher" in Hashem's eyes. If it was higher, a person would learn instead of shaking the luliv.
I think a more likely explanation of "talmud torah keneged kulam" is that learning Torah is what enables you to keep all the other mitzvot (which you can't keep if you don't know how).
Thank you Saul. That is a nice lomdus approach, but I am not entirely sure if its true. Either way, it does not address my question to Reb Natan about the correctness of replacing charity with an offer to study Torah on someone's behalf.
OK I think that the Hebrew PDF link should work now.
Thanks, but still not working for me
Brilliant. This is something that has bothered me for some time. During the height of the war, over a year ago a young Haredi schnorrer came into our minyan in South Jerusalem asking for money. (This is a common occurence.) As I was leaving shul to go to work, I simply looked him in the eye and said that I had already donated two sons to defend him and his family. He had no answer for that.
Apologies about the Hebrew PDF link not working. Not sure why that is. Will try to re-upload in the next post.
As someone who lives in tri-state area. And encounters hundreds of chareidim who make the trip to collect for their familes instead of getting a job.
It makes me sad for the individual and upset at the leaders for creating such a system, of degrading the human being.
They created a system where the worst thing in the world is to get a job - and be productive.
A person at his core is meant to provide.
When he’s not, there is an inherent kind of dissonance of his whole existence.
Just look at the faces of these collectors trudging down Main streets throughout the tri-state area, at 2 PM with a few shopping bags, and a sun beaten hat and jacket that’s turned brown.
They look so lost as they wander around aimlessly with no point .
It’s ironic how the chareidim claim to have “the way” of life, yet when you meet the individuals, although they will claim they are better and they are the reason we all exist. They know that it’s all lies.
Probably the saddest, most disturbing site is seeing the teenagers come over to Schnorr.
Just go to Evergreen in Lakewood on a Friday afternoon and you’ll see countless Israeli chareidi teenagers who couldn’t fit the Mold in Yeshiva.
So instead of getting a job or going to the army, they will come to America and beg outside of supermarkets
They will take the money and go to Atlantic City or they’ll go to prostitutes
All, that is fine as long as they don’t get a job God forbid, or hashem yirachem go to the IDF.
What baffles me most about the chareidim is how things that are not even minhagim are the basis for ignoring many fundamental mitzvahs asey in the Torah.
״עולם הפוך ראיתי, עליונים תחתונים,ותחתונים עליונים.״
This is a horrifying account. I had no idea that this phenomenon exists.
Yup - meshulachim, is what they call themselves.
Now that the Sefardi Breslov moved into the meah shearim, a lot of the teens there come to America to collect as well. I guess they got influenced by the culture.
It’s really sad.
At any given day, Lakewood has hundreds of these guys.
They stroll around all Shuls, even banging down doors on offices.
It took me a while to realize that "meshulachim" is a misnomer, using an old term (collectors on behalf of the yishuv) for something completely different (collecting for oneself, i.e. no shlichut).
If you find it incredible, why do you find it credible?
WADR, he knows what hundreds of people are doing, in Lakewood, Meah Shearim, Atlantic City and elsewhere?
This is sad, true, and an indictment of the system.
A while ago, I spoke to several mishluchem about their coming to America to collect, and this is what I was enlightened to. This goes back several years, so I'm not sure if this still applies or the amounts.
Two families get together and arrange a shidduch (match). Mazel Tov - envey hagefen V'envey Hagefen!!! There is no problem with the actual wedding, as there are many organizations that will make the wedding at a very reasonable price.
HERE IS WHAT THEY ARE REALLY DOING:
They need a home for the young couple, and the down payment is say $30,000. That’s the amount they need to come up with. (the couple will somehow pay the mortgage -as the wife is forced to work to survive). Each father takes upon himself his half, then each one comes around to collect and raise his $15,000. I asked them how they can collect $15,000 a big number?. They said yes. Here is how, they collect every morning and evenings in shuls Then, at night, they go to the homes of known wealthy people who have an open-door policy. This is how it goes in these homes, it depends on how well they can convince, and play the part of a poor man and hit the givers heart. They get anywhere from $36 to $180., Then they travel to different towns around New York - doing it all over again.
This $15,000, they informed me, takes approximately 4-6 months to raise. They did a simple calculation: about $200 a day in shuls with a dollar or $0.50 = $1,000 a week. After covering their expenses, it’s easy to see how they can end up with $15,000.
Here’s what I figured out. People in America are paying for most weddings aka HOMES in that community in Israel and we don’t even realize it. Lets look at it from our part - example, if we give $20-$40 a day during davening (prayers) to these fellows, depending on what you give, we are contributing roughly $6,000 to $8,000 per person -
$30 a day x 250 days =$7,000., this is just in the synagogue. In other words, every 4-5 people just paid for a spanking brand new apartment in Israel and this is EVERY YEAR!
Look around—do you have relatives or children who don’t own a home and are working hard to afford one? If so, it might be much better to give that money to your relatives, than to others who don’t work a day in their lives, and are using this method to get a home. (then the next generation does the same) .Many collectors bragged they married off 8 children in this way. They use the term Hachnosas Kallah, they fold their palms in front in each other looking serious - because if they said they were collecting for an apartment in Kiryat Sefer, how much do you think they could raise?
So, my idea is - when someone puts out their hand for a donation, you are obligated to give - just give a small token like a quarter. Try it - and these days many collectors will even show their upright palm and refuse the charity you want to give. These quarters will go a long way for you . However, you offered to give!
Just make sure you do indeed give, (even more then you could) to real tzdukahs, and to people that are trying to help themselves. It is your "obligation to Hashem" for the money he gave you , to give Tzdukah to the right places.
There's a guy outside the mir who collects money for his mortgages. He owns ten apartments, making him far richer than the parents of the bochrim. But he needs to pay his bills and he has no job so he collects. Feh.
I ask if he or she is buying an apartment for the couple. If yes, I don't give. I cannot buy a house myself, why should I give to you? Many are not buying apartments, and there are also those who used to work but cannot due to injury. Those I try to give to.
"So, my idea is - when someone puts out their hand for a donation, you are obligated to give - just give a small token like a quarter."
The Kli Yakar says you're actually NOT obligated to give to tzedakah to people go around schnorring and refuse to work.
There's one issue: they need to pay for their family and feed them, which needs to be covered. Some collectors have apartments they rent out, like the guy outside the mir. Other people aren't so fortunate.
would love to read this but it's paywalled.
Enjoy.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/19/magazine/the-beggars-of-lakewood.html?unlocked_article_code=1.1U4.cbTN.luPdKBiRN0yx&smid=url-share
This is the guy who the rabbanim in the mir say not to give to because he is rich and is using the money to buy apartments!
All that notwithstanding, the brave thing that WE do is send our kids to the army. Go down the checklist to make sure she hasn't forgotten anything - diskit, gun, wallet, kumta... Drive her to the bus station, give her a kiss and a hug, send her off.
I usually agree with you, but on this I do not. The Charedi poor and the Charedi institutions are not to blame. Ultimately, it's a top down society. It all comes from the Gedolei Torah and those who influence them. Your average yeshiva bochur, even rebbe and yeshiva, have very little power to upend the system. We can try to educate them, and maybe one day revolution will come from the bottom... but to punish them by withholding tzedakah when they are products of a system is too far. I don't think this plan would work... but even if it would, I don't think the ends justify the means.
One day they are going to wake up to the harsh financial realities of life and realize that they need to make a parnasa. The sooner that day comes, the better for them.
I think it's true to some degree, but it's also wishful thinking the way you seem to be applying it. They believe they are the spiritual successors of our ancestors from the Ghettos in Europe. Just like our ancestors lived in abject poverty, they will be too to live up to what they believe are the Torah's ideals. The only way the poverty will change them, is if the poverty will change the Gedolim. Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. But withholding tzedakah from door to door collectors is not going to in any way achieve that goal, and it will only push our collective needs further away from each other. And even if it does make a tiny dent, refusing to give tzedakah is a big deal, and I don't think in any way the ends justify the means. It will also cause yeshivos to suffer. Even if it does pave the way for Gedolim to change their attitude in the near or far future, is it really fair that we are choosing these yeshivos as the sacrifices to achieve our goal? Like I said, I don't think the ends, as good and true as they are, justify the means. Let God punish the innocents to promote national change. That's not our domain.
Withholding tzedakah is not "punishing" - unless you are Elon Musk, you presumably have a limited amount of charity you can give. The wife of a miluimnik, or for that matter a knitted-kipa kollel student, is not less deserving than a charedi avrech. The decision to whom to give is a value judgement.
I agree partially. When it comes to deciding where you are proactively giving tzedakah, then yeah, it's a zero sum game. What you give to one you can't give to someone else. I'm okay with choosing yeshivos that match your hashkafic views. But when it comes to people coming to the door, you're usually not doing a cheshbon, if I give 1 or 5 or 20 shekels here, then I'm not giving there. In that case, choosing not to give for hashkafic reasons is taking a punishing stance.
It's not punishing; it's refusing to enable destructive behavior. Just like I wouldn't give an addict money to buy drugs. In fact it's a punishment to perpetuate the lifestyle rather than helping poor people become self-sufficient. But don't take my word for it: see Rambam
While the gedolim live in poverty, the gedolims handlers do not. They make a pretty penny, as Yanky Kanievsky demonstrates. That will never change because they reap the benefits..
I happen to agree with R Slifkin here. If the small Rosh Kollels and small Yeshivos couldn't make ends meet, that would upend the system, the same way Lev Tahor fell apart after they lost their backers. The only issue is that it is unlikely to happen.
I definitely agree with this to some extent.
However, a person inherently knows the truth.
A lot of of the chareidim strong response and resistance to any sort of responsibility comes from a place of jealousy.
They know and feel it in their bones how disgusting it is to just constantly live off handouts and relying on others.
Even though the system is created from top to bottom. It is definitely each person is responsible for how they lived their life.
Now it is definitely not easy, especially in a society that gaslight using religion. However ultimately לב יודע מרת נפשו.
Truth is not something that needs to be learned – it’s a reality.
Even though they’re taking false foods and claiming them to be truth in the name of God.
Ultimately a person feels and knows the truth
Rav Kooks main thesis and Ideology is based on tapping into your inner self to find the truth.
As opposed to chareid society, that’s always gaslighting you that you don’t know the truth and you have to ask someone with Daas Torah.
I think this is true. The Derech Hashem points out that mans inherent nature is to work for oneself and one feels disgusted taking handouts. (This is claimed to be the whole reason for Olam hazeh). If that is true, then Chareidim who do not work will have deep inner discomfort.
Unfortunately this is not the case, because they've created the belief that they are crucially helping the country via learning.
They are not taking handout, They are helping K'lal Yisroel.!!!
Like a collector told me , he came to give me the ZICHUS to help K'lal Yisroel and something like up lifting the entire world etc. He really believed it and was disappointed I only gave him one dollar.
My taking on this is ---if a person puts out his hand, you should give, as we want Hashem to give us with no questions asked. However how much is another thing, that is where we are the deciders. In shul I give quarters to these guys, and if he came to my home, he gets a whole dollar.
I don't think that is completely true. None of the gedolim say straight out that you're not allowed to get a job, and working charedim are considered part of the community. (Not to mention that most of the Chassidim do work).
I agree with you partially. When I choose to proactively give tzedaka somewhere, I will choose institutions that are more in line with my hashkafah. But I'm not going to say no collectors, especially around Purim time, just because we disagree. Like I said before, I don't think it will work. It will probably have the opposite effect, create even more animosity and distance. But even if it would work, I don't think the ends justify the means. Tzedaka is an important mitzvah, even to support Torah institutions, and I don't think that mitzvah stops just because their boys don't share the burden of the army. Plus it's unfairly punishing boys and rebbeim that aren't able to control what the top is instructing.
Perhaps the yeshiva students can't control what the fat cats at the top of the yeshivah pecking order are instructing them. Still, they are not mindless robots. They are responsible for their individual decisions, such as avoiding military service. They need to be held accountable. If the status quo becomes unsustainable, they will exert upwards pressure for positive change.
What you say is logical, but I think it's an exaggeration. I don't think they are mindless robots, no more than we are mindless robots when it comes to kashrus or Shabbos. Other then pikuach nefesh, we will subject ourselves to abject poverty to hold those ideals sacred. Are we mindless robots? No, we chose our values. They chose their values of loyalty and obedience to Daas Torah. Obviously, we think they are extreme to a fault, especially when it comes at the expense of others, but that's kind of beyond their control once they have chosen a lifetime of adherence to those values.
In that regard, I don't think it's their fault. They can't just break out of their values. The change has to come out on top. Unless, like you say, maybe we can forced them financially to admit their values are unsustainable. But is that a path we want to take? To withhold tzedakah, to punish them, to force them into poverty, when they are ingrained in a system that's being dictated to them from the top? I stand by what I said... I don't think it will work... but even if it does, the ends do not justify the means.
With respect, I disagree. withholding funds is not "punishment", it is a reality check. It is refusing to enable them to continue an unsustainable lifestyle that locks them and their family into a life of poverty and dependence. In addition, (forgive my choice of words) their parasitic lifestyle is a willful choice, not beyond their control.
Reb Cheshbon, does this post worry you? Why do you think that this idea will catch on? Or that if it does, that no alternate solution will be found?
Reminded of a story of one of the old world Rosh Yeshivas that used to go around for money in the US. You could either give him a dollar, or pledge 15 minutes of Torah, which he would diligently write down. Never saw something like this in person. At least he was serious about it.
My old shul would auction aliyot (on the rare occasion it did) for dafim Gemara learned.
This approach fundamentally misunderstands the charedi perspective. When someone approaches a charedi person collecting for their yeshiva with these arguments, they're immediately categorized as 'someone who doesn't understand our worldview.' This is similar to how you, Dr. Slifkin, might react if someone tried to convince you that modern orthodoxy threatens authentic Judaism.
This is how human psychology works - we categorize contradictory views as misunderstandings rather than engaging with them. If you disagree with funding charedi yeshivas, that's entirely your choice. No one is forcing you to donate. There's a significant difference between requesting donations (even persistently) and compulsion.
While I disagree with your position, I believe even more strongly that this confrontational approach won't foster meaningful dialogue or change. Instead, it deepens divisions within our community at a time when mutual respect and understanding are desperately needed.
Another fantastic post, I was wondering what your approach would be to charadi institutions in the diaspora? On the one hand they have no obligation to the army, on the other they are feeding into a society that champions the same aims as charadim in isreal. The issue of self perpetuating poverty and then becoming reliant on the “modern” or centrist orthodox bears similarity however it isn’t as contentious as the draft debate. Please share your thoughts on this, thanks
Interesting question. I think that your point about them feeding into a society with warped values is correct. Plus, in general, I think that tzedakah should be given to institutions that believe in supporting Israel physically and materially.
I think you should clarify in the subtitle you are referring to those collecting for learning. I imagine that a chareidi who needs money for cancer or extremely poverty for example deserves to get money even if he doesn't serve in the army.
How more clear can he be?
He specifically said yeshivas…
It seems like you’re passively aggressively trying to make Rabbi Slifken look cruel.
As aside why do you always feel like you have to defend the chareidim from constructive criticism.
They are not the underdog - there’s nothing wrong with pointing out legitimate problems with a large fraction of Jews that claimed to have a monopoly on Judaism.
Seems like you’re never got traumatized from them and that’s beautiful. But are many amongst us especially the ones that grew up in the community (like me) that have extreme religious traumas from these people.
It is extremely validating to see someone pointed out what’s wrong .
Probably the third sentence. I do think he's somewhat cruel, unfortunately. It's not something I used to think.
I absolutely do not feel that one has to - if every post was like this on the blog I would post no defense. This post is eminently reasonable and fair. (Have you gone through my blog archives? I absolutely do not defend Chareidim from constructive criticism. The thing which I've criticized was the tone and obsessiveness, not the actual point. I've been very consistent on that because I do agree that the way the Chareidi society is set up right now is absolutely wrong. The only thing I would say is that for this to be fixed, the army needs to make changes to show they are serious about meeting their religious needs. If that happens, draft all but those actually studying to be clergy.)
No, I have not seen your blog!
Guilty as charged - I have only seems your comments here, and built an opinion from that.
Looking forward to your posts!
As far as the army being serious to the chareidi way of life.
I don’t see the two ever coinciding .
Chareidi way of life - is not frum life.
It’s a new way of dealing with a new reality . Specifically a reaction to the creation of the state of Israel.
Frum Jews throughout the millennia - would be considered serving a different god in the eye of current chareidim.
Long term learning, Daas Torah, prioritizing politics above all. Are all very new phenomenons that did not exist throughout Galus.
Chareidim are trying to stay separate - while the beauty of Judaism is to be inclusive.
I think the real fear of the army is not spiritual but political. And maybe even deeper, people will see that this way of life is not in indicative of God’s will.
As far as Rabbi slifkin, I have been reading his post since the start of the war. I wouldn’t call him evil or hateful or spiteful.
This is an absolute necessary awareness that has to be brought up .
Maybe because he got hurt in a deep way from this specific fear - fear of “outside influence”, he is triggered and can see things that others are somewhat oblivious to.
But I don’t think that takes away from the true and reality of his posts .
Not sure why this post would be hateful - but advocating not to help or donate money to anyone but yeshivas (a position taken by the leaders of Degel political party) are not hateful?
I think that's a horrible position to take.
Bear in mind that everyone in Israel has health insurance, underwritten by the government. When you see a plea for money to treat illness, it is not being honest, or at least not completely honest. If there is actual illness involved, the need is likely for some ancillary matter, or for extra treatment not approved by the HMO.
Or perhaps the former wage-earner is the one in the hospital, or is no longer able to work because of taking care of the ill person.
That's what I meant by "ancillary." But when Ametican Jews hear such things, they automatically think, "Oh, he has no health insurance" when every Israeli does, by law.
Thank G-d I made aliyah shortly after marrying, so I never really experienced the American health insurance crisis.
Some very rare diseases aren't covered. If treatment isn't available in Israel, they can fly you abroad. And I'm not talking snake oil.
Nuchum - you are 10% right, if Israel does not do that rare but approved treatment in Israel, they will fly him aboard and pay for the total treatment. Not just that.... they pay for a companion to go with you, all expenses paid!
I watched a friend of mine, who used to give thousands to these guys that came around with pictures of their sick child, he had a a very soft heart complete with loads of money.
One day I told him this, he did not believe me at all, but said he knows a person in Israel that would be honest with him and tell him the truth.
2 weeks later he told me in shul with a heavy heart that what I told him I was completely true.
After that, he asked people who came to him, about this and they used excuses they want the best doctors in the world. Israel is a backward country that does not have good doctors. would you let your chid C"V go to these doctors etc.
My friend said HIS medical plan also restricts which doctor he can use - go figure.
To be honest, there's a bit of the anti-Zionism there, a refusal to believe that modern Israel can be a good place, ranked with other nations.
And the truth may be somewhere in the middle. Extra insurance is not that expensive given that it merely supplements. However, some of these extra treatments are experimental or of limited efficacy. I checked into one of those appeals and discovered that the treatment had a very low success rate, something like 12%. (And the definition of success meant surviving for a couple years.)
in my experience those who claim to need money for cancer treatment don't actually have cancer
That last sentence is S P I C Y.
Hope this makes a difference
Absolutely brilliant
Rabbi, I mostly agree with you here: but I have a question, which I hope you'll try to answer. Some organizations try to square this circle by putting on a se'u'da or by sending out shlach manot; as an outreach activity. It's not really going to poor people per se; but rather bringing people to the mosdot to do the Purim mitzvot. I am contributing to such an organization this year; because I gave a promise and feel I can't back out. But I am wondering whether this is really something that should be encouraged or not. Any thoughts?
I don't really understand the situation. Are you paying to fund kiruv activities so that people who don't keep mitzvot can experience keeping mitzvot for a day? Are you paying an excessive price for a sit down meal with the excess price effectively being a donation to whatever the organization does?
It's the kiruv situation.
Natan. Doesn't your argument run into the תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם vs מצוות שבגופו scenario discussed in הלכה where it is clear that one cannot substitute Torah learning for obligations?
I'm asking about the mechanics of what you suggest, not the philosophical rationale behind the approach.
Talmud Torah ki'neged kilom ( Torah learning is against everything) is only that the mitzvah of Torah learning, you have to use all your facilities to do so. Doing other mitzvahs you can it do while thinking of other thing and doesn't evolve everything else with you. Each other mitzvah uses only a part of your body, while learning Torah you use your mind - and as in a mind you cannot think of 2 thing at the same time. This means you are using your entire existence to do this mitzvah.
However every mitzvah is just as as good and noble as the next mitzvah. There is no "better" or 'higher" in Hashem's eyes. If it was higher, a person would learn instead of shaking the luliv.
Hope I did not bust you bubble - If I did sorry.
You really think those who learn instead of work are only focused on their Torah learning…??? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think a more likely explanation of "talmud torah keneged kulam" is that learning Torah is what enables you to keep all the other mitzvot (which you can't keep if you don't know how).
Thank you Saul. That is a nice lomdus approach, but I am not entirely sure if its true. Either way, it does not address my question to Reb Natan about the correctness of replacing charity with an offer to study Torah on someone's behalf.
Its clever rhetoric, but not grounded in halacha.
I think it would be a lot more effective if you put the mareh makom from Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky on to the PDF.
Thanks for providing this. The Hebrew PDF link is broken I think...
BUMP!