Oh, and actually no less than Chazal (Berachos 5a) say that when calamities befall us, we are supposed to do introspection to see what areas of observance need improvement. And the default area to improve given by Chazal is Torah study!
But then again, Chazal were Chareidi, so scratch that.
Chazal are making unfalsifiable claims, here. No way to prove or disprove. They should know better that this is a fallacy. You are making an appeal to authority. Another fallacy. Both examples of the logical weakness of religious apologetics. Both commonly employed by clergy, mass movement leaders, as well as people who know exactly what they are doing (who we would call charlatans.) No grade on this one.
Sorry, you've come to the wrong address. As the good rabbi has said, this site is for people who believe in the basic tenets of Judaism. What we argue about here is what exactly those are. But for those who don't believe in Judaism, this is not the place for you. Do us all a favor and get the hell out of here.
The discussions between Hillel and Shammai were l'shem shamayim
Rabossi - what's going on here is definitely NOT l'shem shamayim
Get outside your heads, if possible, and look at what's going on in Israel, in the Yiddische Welt, in the middle east, in the world in general.
All of this brainpower, when focused positively, should be a light to the other nations
Exactly what the f**** are y'all doing??
Don't respond - just think about it; rationally, if possible - and if you are pointing a finger[literally or figuratively] go stand in front of a mirror
WADR, you are unread on some fundamental elements of Chareidi thought. It's worth a shot at communicating this to you since you appreciate thinking and not responding. Find a friendly Chareidi person IN A DIFFERENT PLACE to share your questions with & become better read, while here everything is in the context of fighting.
appeal to emotion. Giving you an incomplete. I am being a nice guy.
but, in terms of what you do say - what could you mean by believing in basic "tenets" that you can't define? You say you "believe," but the evidence points to the contrary.
Yes, ad hominem indeed. It is pointless to attempt in engaging in intelligent conversation in Judaism with someone who openly isn't working with the premise of Judaism.
And that's if I thought you were capable of engaging in intelligent conversation to begin with. But from observing your immature comments here, it seems the extent of your capability is to "grade" or attack other commenters. Intelligent argument does not seem to be your strong point.
But you'll have to excuse me. I've broken my commitment not to engage with idiots. As Mark Twain said, "Never engage with a fool; the onlookers won't be able to tell the difference." So adios, amigo!
straw man. it is neither automatically true, or false. no one, not the arguer or his counter arguer - can make heads or tails of it.
the con man has the deeper problem: he makes claims that he knows are false. that's why after he sells his snake oil, he must leave town.
Religious apologists have it much easier: "faith can move mountains." "I have faith, and can't move mountains with it." "You lack real faith."
You got to figure this is why there are so many mega churches with teams of clergy pontificating from the same pulpit for decades, and con men are wily and adept at making the hasty exit.
"Logical fallacies are deceptive or false arguments that may seem stronger than they actually are due to psychological persuasion, but are proven wrong with reasoning and further examination. These mistakes in reasoning typically consist of an argument and a premise that does not support the conclusion."
There are many kinds of logical fallacies. These are not matters of "experimentation," as you state.
Your last two sentences are non-falsifiable.
My HUMBLE advice to all religious apologists (from all religions; from all mass movements, too): go and learn.
Not the default rather the fallback option when no reasonable alternative is at hand . Torah learning is at an all time(?) high. Infighting is as well. So which one is more reasonable. The reason R Gershon Edelstein doesn't say this is because the far right view is that increased division is the best situation possible to insure the religious level of the "proper" jews. (A la the chazon ish) How can the proper jews get punished when they are doing everything right? (Note he doesn't blame Frei people breaking sabbath laws etc.. Arvus is viewed in a diminished fashion due to the self identification as seperate)
That gemara says the opposite. The default area is not Torah study:
אם רואה אדם שיסורין באין עליו יפשפש במעשיו ...פשפש ולא מצא יתלה בבטול תורה
A straight reading here, indicates the default area of improvement is NOT Torah study. Only if someone finds himself faultless in other areas, should he attribute his ordeal to neglect of Torah study.
For a deeper reading, see the Kotzker who notes that the simple reading implies a redundancy. Wouldn't ביטול תורה be already included in faults discovered through examines one's deeds? Rather ביטול תורה here doesn't refer to neglect of Torah study per se, but using ביטול תורה as an excuse for not carrying out one's other responsibilities. So you have someone who examines his deeds and discovers that he has neglected his responsibilities, but excuses such neglect by saying that he was too busy learning to do the other things required of him. As such פשפש ולא מצא- he finds himself faultless. So the גמרא continues and says יתלה בבטול תורה, that it's the excuse of ביטול תורה that caused him to neglect his other duties and thus brought on calamity.
Another interpretation of that statement is that יתלה applies to the פשפש ולא מצא, not to the יסורין - i.e., your neglect of Torah study is *the reason you don't realize what it is you did wrong*. In other words, it's never the lack of Torah study itself that causes יסורין; you're sinning in other areas because you lack sufficient understanding of Torah to know what's forbidden.
The gemara is saying that one should examine what he could improve in. If he cannot find any obvious serious sin that seems to be the cause, then he can assume that the only serious sin that he has is bittul Torah. As Rashi explains, this is because calamities come especially from lack of Torah study. See the Maharsha there which explains this very clearly.
Kollel/yeshivah style of learning does not do 'straight readings'. That is was academic talmudists do (kofrim the lot of them). In chareidiland practically each and every aggadic statement can be twisted and cherry picked to mean whatever the quoter wants it to mean.
But seriously speaking, you can hardly claim something is a 'basic tenant' when there are so many different interpratations. Everything is a machlokas.
It's ironic for the kotzker to say that seeing as students abandoned their families to deprivation and starvation to study by him. (Other masters encouraged or condoned the same )
Statement 1. Using the excuse of spiritual growth to shirk one's obligations to one's family is fine. statement 2. Bitul torah means Using one's learning as an excuse to shirk one's obligations (and is wrong) . If someone maintains 1. It would be unexpected for him to maintain 2. as well since it is in contradiction. Thus these two statements fulfill the conditions to be declared ironic insofar as they are found to emanate from the same source.
Ah, okay. So even though there is enormous cultural significance of chametz to Egypt, you think that these points mean that this should be ridiculed as being "silly." And it is much more reasonable to say that Lot served matza to his guests because he was celebrating the future rushed exodus of the Jews from Egypt than because it was a food that was eaten in Eretz Yisrael. Got it.
This is totally ridiculous. Yes, Chareidim really think that Torah protects! This concept is not a Chareidi innovation. It is classic Judaic philosophy and Chazal say as such in numerous places. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect. This very speech from R' Edelstein demonstrates that Charedim believe so, as well as the psak from R' Zilberstein that you were busy mocking last month, as well as numerous other statements and halachic rulings by Chareidi Gedolim and Poskim. It is simply not practical to leave all Yeshivos running 24/7. Most Yeshiva students are not cut out for that type of schedule, and it would in fact be detrimental in the long-term. Although in times of danger, Torah students do increase Torah study, exactly as R' Edelstein is advocating for here. When the rockets were falling in the south, MOST YESHIVOS STAYED, based on the psak of R' Chaim Kanievsky and others. The ones that relocated were mostly high schools, where the young bochurim were not able to cope with the situation. Not because the Yeshiva administration was frightened.
This is extremely straightforward, and you seem to be the only one confused about it. I think the real reason that you can't seem to wrap your head around is because that YOU don't think that Torah protects, as you've said numerous times. So it's kinda like me having trouble believing that intelligent Indians really, really believe that they are created and governed by a bunch of action figures. You are so far removed from believing in the Torah's protection that you have trouble understanding that anyone else really does.
"It is simply not practical to leave all Yeshivos running 24/7." It is extremely straightforward to arrange things so that different yeshivos take vacations at different times. And if you believe that lives are at stake, this is exactly what should be done.
Well, theoretically you may have a point, and there has even been a strong push in the past to do that a few times, but:
1. Bein Hazmanim of Nissan and Tishrei is an old tradition (which even has a source in Chazal), and like any tradition, it is hard to change (and summer bein haznanim goes back at least to the 19th century European Yeshiva era).
2. Being that we are in golus and lack central authority, it is very hard to make any large-scale communal change that involves many parties. As someone who is involved in klal related work in the US, I would call it next to impossible.
3. It is not as if this happens every bein hazmanim. There are some years that nothing out of ordinary happens. Yet every few years, we have bein hazmanims like this.
4. It is not as if there is no Torah learning happening during bein hazmanim. Most bachurim and avreichim maintain regular sedarim of a few hours during bein hazmanim. And when calamities such as these befall us, we are capable of increasing in Torah study, even during bein hazmanim.
Ah, so it would be a great way to save lives, but it's organizationally too difficult? Gosh, maybe they should get the IDF to help them schedule things.
That seems a very reasonable approach. Perhaps we should indeed leave questions of theodicy to Him, rather than make up reasons for why bad things happen.
Uh, just we didn't make it up. Chazal (Berachos) say that when bad things happen, we can assume that the reason most likely is a due to a decrease in Torah study.
All the more so when it happens during bein hazmanim.
Don't you know that it's an old tradition that in times of war or danger, we are Machmir to take off on Bein Hazemanim? I mean every knows that tradition.
you can take the charedim out of the ghetto, but ya can't take the ghetto mentality out of charedim. Please request that das toireh people substantiate their irrational claims and statements Remind them why Jewish armies are required to do battle on Shabbos
You might even suggest they put down the Talmud and learn TaNaCh
You have a great blog, R Slifkin, but your detractors have the mindset of 19th century shtetl dwellers and kollel bochrim(who probably believe R Akiva's students literally died in a plague [Chazal's codeword for rebellion - not a good word to mention when living under foreign domination]
Uh, obviously no one thinks that they wore contemporary Chareidi garb, spoke Yiddish, and whatnot, but their value system was far more in-line with that of Chareidim than that of liberal MODOX, which is antithesis to their teachings in so many ways. I IYH have a few in-depth posts coming up on Irrationalist Modoxism on this very topic.
I am not sure if any 2 people have the same definition for who or what modox is, let alone liberal.
Haredim I can at least differentiate between Israeli and non Israeli in some respects; and das toyreh vs non das toyreh -- certainly very binary and generic, when in reality am yisrael is a very complicated and unconventional Venn diagram
"Acquiring a wife doesnt mean..." - actually it does, and to claim otherwise means you're either speaking your own language or making up definitions to suit your own tastes.
Garvin, you are a bocher - i'm not litvish, so i say 'bucher' Your inability to distinguish between figurative and literal is disappointing.
Bucher, you need to get out into the real world and see how people struggle every day to eke out an honest living; go comfort the sick and the dying, try helping someone who has been attacked and is bleeding to death.
Get back to me after you've had a few of these experiences - and don't be an asshole and reply prematurely
As you ask like a gentleman, Kollel is for marrieds, and Bochurim are singles. Anyone unaware of that in the heat of a debate can expect to be jeered & sniggered at for that lapse in their knowledge, and have the remainder of their comment hooted at and dismissed
Mr. Coyote--Some1's failing to make that purported distinction among word choices is an insignificant error, (if it is indeed an "error"), in no way detracts from the thrust of some1's arguments or opinions. U r desperately over-reacting, clearly intentionally, to shout down an opinion with which u disagree. Your endless amplification of Kenneth's "error" is more hammy than a footballer's play-acting serious injury to draw a penalty upon their opponent.
Rebbes (and Alan Dershowitz) do it all the time to suppress purported apikorsim. Unfortunately, some bochrim, maybe u, pick up the habit. While u at at it, feel free to criticize my use of text abbreviations to dig yourself a deeper hole.
Kindly bear in mind once and for all that I'm not a desperate commenter, let alone intentionally shouting...; I rarely raise my 'voice'. I was explaining to you what you asked about others.
Generally speaking, where there's a cultural gap and one party feels that the other can't see across it at all, but in a way that isn't easily quantified, and the other also made a tangible albeit insignificant error, the first party will point out the latter in attempt to convey that the other party, in their opinion, is clueless in general of what goes on on the other side. I've seen this among atheists, agnostics, believers; Jews, gentiles--anyone and everyone.
Huxley did something similar to great effect in his 1860 debate with Wilberforce.
Coyote, u r very desperate. U invalidated a person's opinion because of a SMALL terminology maybe-error, as per you: Anyone unaware of that...can expect to be jeered & sniggered at for that lapse in their knowledge, and have the remainder of their comment hooted at and dismissed."
Unaware of "that" WHAT? A terminology error? You: "The first party will point out the latter in attempt to convey that the other party, in their opinion, is clueless in general of what goes on on the other side."
U r desperate, Dude. U r probably 1 of the idiots that dismisses my frum brother-in-law because he cannot gutturally pronounce khof and khet!
Well said, except that I would not call the error insignificant. To be so unfamiliar with such basic terminology betrays such a woeful understanding of the subject in question, that it is not worth one's time to engage the individual further in discussion.
I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Try studying gemara in the context of historical, political, socioeconomic circumstances. You will never understand chazal if you do not attempt to understand their world They lived in the real world, not in an ivory tower - and those who got stuck in the tower were instructed to go into the marketplace, mingle with the ordinary people and observe the day to day comings and goings: Chazal did not presume to have haredi privilege, which affects so many people these days and has not produced an original thought in a generation
thank you for that enlightening response; although I will grant you that diphtheria epidemics have been described in ancient times. I was not aware that "Contact with amei ha'aretz was severely limited, due to the Halachos of Tum'ah and Taharah,' even though we are speaking of 'post-churban' period extending over a few hundred years.
'historical, political and socioeconomic circumstances' are completely unknown to us,' is a baseless statement, perhaps stemming in part from your contempt for academics, to say nothing of us feeble-minded apikorsim
As I read the comments, I ponder why certain people come to rage at Rabbi Slifkin while a simple "I disagree, here is why" would suffice. I also ponder why certain other people use this comment section to express their anger at a God they don't believe in.
So much irrational behavior. To paraphrase the words of a certain sci-fi character "Consider the illogic of wasted energy."
Actually I agree with Rav Edelsten that Charedim did enable many of the recent tragedies/ disasters, but not for the reason he gives. They have contributed to the division that has turned Jews against each other. They have increased wanton and needless dislike and hatred (Sinat Chinam). When our enemies see they we are not united, when reserve officers threaten not to report for duty, when we came close to all out civil war.. they rub their hands in glee and take the opportunity to strike out against us. That has caused tragic loss of life.
Working from the premise that the universe would cease to exist if all Torah study were to cease even for a moment, R’ Chaim Volozhiner instituted round-the-clock “mishmaros” in his yeshiva so that, at least in Volozhin, someone was always learning Torah (for the sake of the rest of the world). It’s worth noting that:
A) Reb Chaim did not seem to believe that the protective effect of Torah study was geographically or spatially limited (i.e., as long as someone was learning in Volozhin, the rest of the universe was OK), and
B) It wasn’t necessary that *everyone* always be learning, just that someone was always learning.
What an ignorant comment. R' Chaim held that there always has to be at least one person learning in the world or else the world would cease to exist. This has nothing to do with what we are talking about, which is the concept of Torah protecting. See this article https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect which brings many proofs from Chazal that A. The more Torah learned, the more protection gained from it. B. That the protection is stronger where Torah is being learned.
So, by that logic, couldn’t yeshivos simply coordinate “mishmaros” (like Reb Chaim did) and maybe, ya know, not all take vacation at the same time? Seems like a lot of lives could be saved that way…
Its a Jewish thing to take blame for not living up to observance. From the times of Tanach the leaders have used any calamity happening to us as a sign that we have not lived up to our standards in Torah. Other nations blamed it upon the enemy, or their gods, or nature etc and they are no longer exist as peoples, but we always blamed it on our lack of observance everytime. And our Rabbis continue to lead us in the same true and trusted way.
Yeh you might solve the problem of the tragedies. However the yeshiva system is what saved Yiddishkeit when everybody was going OTD and assimilating in Europe. If we change something then we don't know if that could ruin the great thing we have going that has saved Judaism and the world and produced millions of dedicated frum Yidden, when things looked like they would die out altogether. Unless the person is a major Godol Hador with immense Daas Torah. In that case then they have the authority but most Roshei Yeshiva will still not listen to them unless they are the more radical type.
Reasonable fear. However it leads to stagnation when the world changes around us and what worked..... doesn't. Internal change happens as well ( as second and third generation roshei yeshiva and rabbanim fill positions held by people who grew up in a radically different world). So we just wait for the "inevitable " breakdown and then "bshas hadchak " (under duress) we invoke "eis laasos" and make the changes we should have implemented on our own.
Nah. Lots of other belief systems say "Our Faith is perfect. If something bad happens it's because we didn't do it hard enough." Every time there's a natural disaster in the US the Gospel Grinders say "It's because we didn't oppress the Gays/Black people/Latines/Jews/liberals *ENOUGH*. Or " Forget policy. What we need to do is offer thoughts and prayers."
The non-falsifiable assertion is the hallmark of religion (and other mass movements.). Things that cannot be proven false (or true) and therefore can’t be argued against. “Faith can move mountains.” “Well, I have faith and can’t move mountains.” “You lack true faith.”
This is the stock and trade of the manipulative mass movement leader. His go to tactic.
What is "dorky" about that term? Do u have a non-dorky alternative? Labeling a term as "dorky" to be pejorative does not work after u graduate 8th-grade debate. In fact, doing so is retarded.
What’s “dorky” about it is that it is just one of many clumsy attempts to de-gender traditional language (typically motivated by well-meaning—but ultimately retarded—“woke” ideology).
Granted, “Latine” is less clumsy that some, but that doesn’t change the fact these silly and unnecessary neologisms are almost universally reviled by the Hispanic folks whom they patronize.
Indeed, guilt-tripping is a long-misused Jewish tool to get people to do stuff they do not want to and that u cannot make a good case for them to do it. Read up Nietzsche on Ethics.
When I was in the yeshiva, many learned bein hazmanim. This was true for both a DL and charedi yeshivos that I'd learned in. The reasons for bein hazmanim are obvious. The subject has been discussed numerous times and has become an obsession on this blog. I would guess, that something must be going not as expected with the chinuch of Slifkin's kids. Remember that as a general rule: כל באיה לא ישובון, good intentions not withstanding.
Slifkin hit a new low again. He looses this round hands down.
Yeah, but you said that Rabbi Slifkin won the Torah protecting fight besides the fact that the other side offered a very substantive reply and Rabbi Slifkin got himself all tied up in knots trying to respond to them.
It should first be noted that you have yet to actually prove Charedim dont truly believe that Torah protects. In fact, last month you claimed there was a massive increase in Charedim applying for gun permits, and still haven't offered a word of proof to back that up. (You embedded a hyperlink to an article, which itself gave no evidence, whatsoever, to back the claim up.) So the whole premise is fatally flawed.
With that said, I personally share your belief that at least some Charedim dont truly believe the official claims, and use it as a convenient motto instead of their real reason for avoiding the army, viz, its corrupting influence. OK, let's assume arguendo that's true - what of it? All of modern society is based on official statements of position that party members themselves don't believe. Most Communist party members never believed their own propaganda, leaders of the US Democrats don't believe most of their own public statements, and neither do plenty in Republican leadership. The same is true in CEO messaging to the employees; they don't believe in many of the actions they've been forced to take because of a few powerful fund managers. So, at most, you've made an unproven claim that some in the Charedi world are the same as the rest of the world. We can live with that.
We all know the reason the charedi leadership doesn't want their youth to serve in the army has almost othing to do with learning torah and is more about not exposing their youth to outside influences. After all, the girls don't do sheirut leumi. I find this fascinating as they pray for kibbutz galiyot and moshiach all the time. Will they then be willing to serve in an army. There will also be outside influences. When push comes to shove, they want to continue living in the galut while physically being here.
BTW, The brisket Rav wanted to leave Palestine leading up to the war of independence because of the possible dangers and needed to be persuaded to stat.
You keep saying that people are "pretending otherwise", but so far, all the evidence that you have brought is 100% to the contrary. In fact, this very post proves otherwise! Here you are mocking R' Edelstein for thinking that the increase in calamities is a result from the decrease in Torah study and for advocating for increasing Torah study. Last month, you were mocking R' Zilberstein for the same thinking. And so on. Of course, this is all endemic of Chareidi rubes who actually believe what Chazal say. He he he.
So far, the only one "proof" you have that Chareidim don't think that Torah protects was from one Yeshiva relocating from Ashdod to Beit Shemesh during one of the Gazan wars. But it just so turns out that the reason why they left had nothing to do with them not thinking that Torah protects!
Of course, there is also the obvious reason for not wanting to send kids to the army. But that does not preclude believing in the Torah's protection, exactly as Chazal say in numerous places. So seriously, what is so hard to understand about this??
"So far, the only one "proof" you have that Chareidim don't think that Torah protects was from one Yeshiva relocating from Ashdod to Beit Shemesh during one of the Gazan wars."
There is also the increased security at the gates of kiryat sefer and demands for extra security in beitar, which you tie yourself up in knots trying to explain away. Plus demanding special gas masks for those with long beards.
Plus the complete self-contradiction in ignoring everything the talmud has to say about protection from disease also provided by torah learning. To which the obvious answer is that chareidim can't get anybody else to take the diseases for them.
There are plenty of examples, but needless to say you don't want to look.
I don't ignore you in principle. I promise you, as soon as you respond with a comment that makes sense, I will respond.That also goes for you sock puppet, Test.
Nope. I figured it out a long time ago because they both have the same exact writing style, say the same types of things, and seem to have zero reading comprehension, either because this English bloke is not too intelligent or is intentionally dreying people a kup.
Rabbi meshulem dovid soleviechik the brisket ravs son is quoted as bemoaning the idea that "we" don't serve in the army because Torah protects and that the right reason not to serve is because in present circumstances it is forbidden to serve due to the detrimental religious atmosphere.
Writing tip: when an opinion piece ends with a platitude, e.g., "it's as simple as that," u acknowledge u have not really made a convincing logical argument. Similar useless platitudes, like ending a piece "Period" r equally unconvincing. Likewise, starting a piece with a platitude is a total turn-off, like "would somebody please tell me why..," as r silly analogies like, "well if u r so pro-life as to ban abortion, why r u not pro-life enough to ban the death penalty?"
It goes without saying that people adopt positions that not-coincidentally jive with own their self-interest. Do 80% of rabbi-written Talmudic agadtas just "coincidentally" promote the primacy of rabbinic rulings, over Biblical rules or even verbal directives from God (like a bat-kol)?
I am not ignorant, just unconvinced by roundabout non-explanations of a well-known term. As a finale, God's overtly praising rabbinical methodology was the icing for the amaratzim who did not get the message the 1st time.
If indeed you have the source material for an informed decision and already arrived at whatever conclusion, I'll withdraw amicably from the discussion.
But if not, I'd give you some references with which to inform yourself.
So which Sugyos & Mefarshim have you seen, so I'll know if I have anything to add?
---
"As a finale, God's overtly praising rabbinical methodology was the icing for the amaratzim who did not get the message the 1st time."
What are you saying? I didn't get it the 1st time(! ;) ).
1) Thanks, I believe I have enough info on the topic, having studied it with an MO rabbi/scholar.
2) I meant that the rabbi-writers of this midrash wanted their message to be crystal clear: God concedes (with a chuckle) that, ultimately, the halakha is to be ruled according to their decisions, even when the omniscient Lawgiver himself feels otherwise. He is to be defied, even when he miraculously appears in the sky. After all, we do know that Yahweh dwells in the sky above, not in the deep seas or underground, like some of those other gods. U know, those poseurs who have eyes that do not, get this, see! (Chazal and the psalmist might do themselves a favor by taking Comparative Religion 101.)
When I learned in a kollel that went according to the Mifal HaShas program (20 daf/30 daf of Gemara, or 10 daf of Yoreh Deah/8 daf of Choshen Mishpat per month), they take off a bit from the load (9 daf Yoreh Deah/7 daf Choshen Mishpat) for the months of Tishrei, Nisan, and Av.
(Tishrei and Nisan I can understand, since people are so busy preparing for the holidays. But why Av?)
Yeshivos cannot be run like armies. There is one rosh yeshiva who does so to some extent. Fired my grandson after he was caught with a kosher pelephone.
If it really is that important it can be. Coordination between yeshivot would be a start. Make sure enough are always open so the students will always have a place to do their supposedly invaluable work. Deputize teachers to fill in when the Commander is on vacation.
Nissan has so many holidays and partial holidays, that u may as well make a month of it. These Nissan holidays, more than most others, emphasize family gatherings, so bochrim need extra days for traveling between yeshiva and home city.
What holidays are there in Nissan aside from Pesach? A few days before pesach a few days after pesach would be plenty. 2 weeks before and 9 or 10 days after is way too much.
In Volozhan the Netziv had them learning 24/7. There were shifts, so that there would always be some torah learning. He himself covered the shift immediately after Yom Kippur.
Sorry that is ridiculous. If learning can save lives then they should be learning in yeshiva. Pesach was over last Wednesday night in israel. Yeshivas aren’t starting up again until next Sunday. That is a very long time. There are no holidays that I know of this week. The same applies at the beginning. They are off from Rosh Chodesh Nissan, that is 2 full weeks before pesach. That is way too much. There is no justification for that much time off today when travel is ridiculously easy.
It's fair to debate the wisdom of having a whole month off for Nissan, I myself think its too long. and plenty of yeshivahs in America - including Philly and Sharei Torah and Chafetz Chayim, among others - give off far less. There are many reasons that argue in favor of shortening it. But don't fall prey to going with NS's "if learning can save lives" rhetoric. It's a ridiculous bit of political posturing, and using it would automatically cause your arguments to be dismissed out of hand.
First of all the overwhelming majority of bachurim in Israeli yeshivas live in israel. Second of all air travel is easy. Get on a plane and in less then 12 hours in NY. In 4 hours you are in the UK. That travel time doesn’t justify a monthlong bein hazmanim
Pesach is 7-8 days, plus a few days for siyum b'chorim and other preps. If u believe in having a monthlong holiday once a year, Nisson is the best month to do it. University students get a 2-3 month block period off annually. It is accepted that hi-level students need that long of a break for rest and other projects.
We are talking about Israel, pesach is 7 days. Erev pesach is 1 day, that’s it. There are no other holidays. Stretching it out to a month is ridiculous.
Dayenu on the word "ridiculous," which u have used 4 times in the past hour. I was explaining the month-off phenomenon, not justifying anything. 2nd, I did not compare kollel to grad school, except to make the narrow point that it is recognized that serious hi-level students of any academic pursuit customarily have at least a month off every year. In no way did I make an overly broad comparison to the 2 types of students, and certainly not to any1's purported lofty vs. mundane motivations.
Oh, and actually no less than Chazal (Berachos 5a) say that when calamities befall us, we are supposed to do introspection to see what areas of observance need improvement. And the default area to improve given by Chazal is Torah study!
But then again, Chazal were Chareidi, so scratch that.
Update: See happygolucky's response here:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-vacation-from-torah
And this one from me:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/is-there-anything-at-all-rational
Chazal are making unfalsifiable claims, here. No way to prove or disprove. They should know better that this is a fallacy. You are making an appeal to authority. Another fallacy. Both examples of the logical weakness of religious apologetics. Both commonly employed by clergy, mass movement leaders, as well as people who know exactly what they are doing (who we would call charlatans.) No grade on this one.
Sorry, you've come to the wrong address. As the good rabbi has said, this site is for people who believe in the basic tenets of Judaism. What we argue about here is what exactly those are. But for those who don't believe in Judaism, this is not the place for you. Do us all a favor and get the hell out of here.
The discussions between Hillel and Shammai were l'shem shamayim
Rabossi - what's going on here is definitely NOT l'shem shamayim
Get outside your heads, if possible, and look at what's going on in Israel, in the Yiddische Welt, in the middle east, in the world in general.
All of this brainpower, when focused positively, should be a light to the other nations
Exactly what the f**** are y'all doing??
Don't respond - just think about it; rationally, if possible - and if you are pointing a finger[literally or figuratively] go stand in front of a mirror
WADR, you are unread on some fundamental elements of Chareidi thought. It's worth a shot at communicating this to you since you appreciate thinking and not responding. Find a friendly Chareidi person IN A DIFFERENT PLACE to share your questions with & become better read, while here everything is in the context of fighting.
appeal to emotion. Giving you an incomplete. I am being a nice guy.
but, in terms of what you do say - what could you mean by believing in basic "tenets" that you can't define? You say you "believe," but the evidence points to the contrary.
It wasn't an appeal to emotion; it was an appeal to a mamzer.
ad hominem fallacy. I'd advise you repeat the grade...you got this..!
Yes, ad hominem indeed. It is pointless to attempt in engaging in intelligent conversation in Judaism with someone who openly isn't working with the premise of Judaism.
And that's if I thought you were capable of engaging in intelligent conversation to begin with. But from observing your immature comments here, it seems the extent of your capability is to "grade" or attack other commenters. Intelligent argument does not seem to be your strong point.
But you'll have to excuse me. I've broken my commitment not to engage with idiots. As Mark Twain said, "Never engage with a fool; the onlookers won't be able to tell the difference." So adios, amigo!
straw man. it is neither automatically true, or false. no one, not the arguer or his counter arguer - can make heads or tails of it.
the con man has the deeper problem: he makes claims that he knows are false. that's why after he sells his snake oil, he must leave town.
Religious apologists have it much easier: "faith can move mountains." "I have faith, and can't move mountains with it." "You lack real faith."
You got to figure this is why there are so many mega churches with teams of clergy pontificating from the same pulpit for decades, and con men are wily and adept at making the hasty exit.
A logical fallacy is not a mistaken "belief."
From Google:
"Logical fallacies are deceptive or false arguments that may seem stronger than they actually are due to psychological persuasion, but are proven wrong with reasoning and further examination. These mistakes in reasoning typically consist of an argument and a premise that does not support the conclusion."
There are many kinds of logical fallacies. These are not matters of "experimentation," as you state.
Your last two sentences are non-falsifiable.
My HUMBLE advice to all religious apologists (from all religions; from all mass movements, too): go and learn.
Akiva,
But "idiocy" remains just that.
Not the default rather the fallback option when no reasonable alternative is at hand . Torah learning is at an all time(?) high. Infighting is as well. So which one is more reasonable. The reason R Gershon Edelstein doesn't say this is because the far right view is that increased division is the best situation possible to insure the religious level of the "proper" jews. (A la the chazon ish) How can the proper jews get punished when they are doing everything right? (Note he doesn't blame Frei people breaking sabbath laws etc.. Arvus is viewed in a diminished fashion due to the self identification as seperate)
That gemara says the opposite. The default area is not Torah study:
אם רואה אדם שיסורין באין עליו יפשפש במעשיו ...פשפש ולא מצא יתלה בבטול תורה
A straight reading here, indicates the default area of improvement is NOT Torah study. Only if someone finds himself faultless in other areas, should he attribute his ordeal to neglect of Torah study.
For a deeper reading, see the Kotzker who notes that the simple reading implies a redundancy. Wouldn't ביטול תורה be already included in faults discovered through examines one's deeds? Rather ביטול תורה here doesn't refer to neglect of Torah study per se, but using ביטול תורה as an excuse for not carrying out one's other responsibilities. So you have someone who examines his deeds and discovers that he has neglected his responsibilities, but excuses such neglect by saying that he was too busy learning to do the other things required of him. As such פשפש ולא מצא- he finds himself faultless. So the גמרא continues and says יתלה בבטול תורה, that it's the excuse of ביטול תורה that caused him to neglect his other duties and thus brought on calamity.
Another interpretation of that statement is that יתלה applies to the פשפש ולא מצא, not to the יסורין - i.e., your neglect of Torah study is *the reason you don't realize what it is you did wrong*. In other words, it's never the lack of Torah study itself that causes יסורין; you're sinning in other areas because you lack sufficient understanding of Torah to know what's forbidden.
Nice.
The gemara is saying that one should examine what he could improve in. If he cannot find any obvious serious sin that seems to be the cause, then he can assume that the only serious sin that he has is bittul Torah. As Rashi explains, this is because calamities come especially from lack of Torah study. See the Maharsha there which explains this very clearly.
"As Rashi explains, this is because calamities come especially from lack of Torah study."
Where does Rashi say "especially"?
@Oiberchochom,
Could Rashi be wrong? And if not would you explain why?
Kollel/yeshivah style of learning does not do 'straight readings'. That is was academic talmudists do (kofrim the lot of them). In chareidiland practically each and every aggadic statement can be twisted and cherry picked to mean whatever the quoter wants it to mean.
But seriously speaking, you can hardly claim something is a 'basic tenant' when there are so many different interpratations. Everything is a machlokas.
You're apparently ignorant of how long what you call the "Kollel/yeshivah style of learning" has been in use.
It's ironic for the kotzker to say that seeing as students abandoned their families to deprivation and starvation to study by him. (Other masters encouraged or condoned the same )
Why is that behavior "ironic"?
From Google. "happening in the opposite way to what is expected, and typically causing wry amusement because of this."
Saying a vort which is an attack on your own shitta is opposite to expectations and hence ironic.
I know what "ironic" means. I was asking what is ironic about these rebbes' advice yielding lives of poverty.
Statement 1. Using the excuse of spiritual growth to shirk one's obligations to one's family is fine. statement 2. Bitul torah means Using one's learning as an excuse to shirk one's obligations (and is wrong) . If someone maintains 1. It would be unexpected for him to maintain 2. as well since it is in contradiction. Thus these two statements fulfill the conditions to be declared ironic insofar as they are found to emanate from the same source.
yes, the purpose of torah study is to practice what one has learned.
introspection is not for the faint of heart
perhaps we need to get back to the basics - learning and applying the mitzvot in sefer d'varim, before moving on to gemara
On the contrary, the gemara says to check what you did wrong, and only if you found nothing, to assume it is because of Bitull Torah.
Welcome back. You never responded to my question about what you found theologically objectionable about my matzah/chametz post.
Come on, Happy, I'm waiting. Why do you think it is "silly" to show that chametz is culturally associated with Egypt?
Ah, okay. So even though there is enormous cultural significance of chametz to Egypt, you think that these points mean that this should be ridiculed as being "silly." And it is much more reasonable to say that Lot served matza to his guests because he was celebrating the future rushed exodus of the Jews from Egypt than because it was a food that was eaten in Eretz Yisrael. Got it.
Why did you think it was silly?
i thought his examples showed why your pshat was silly
that pshat was epic!
This is totally ridiculous. Yes, Chareidim really think that Torah protects! This concept is not a Chareidi innovation. It is classic Judaic philosophy and Chazal say as such in numerous places. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect. This very speech from R' Edelstein demonstrates that Charedim believe so, as well as the psak from R' Zilberstein that you were busy mocking last month, as well as numerous other statements and halachic rulings by Chareidi Gedolim and Poskim. It is simply not practical to leave all Yeshivos running 24/7. Most Yeshiva students are not cut out for that type of schedule, and it would in fact be detrimental in the long-term. Although in times of danger, Torah students do increase Torah study, exactly as R' Edelstein is advocating for here. When the rockets were falling in the south, MOST YESHIVOS STAYED, based on the psak of R' Chaim Kanievsky and others. The ones that relocated were mostly high schools, where the young bochurim were not able to cope with the situation. Not because the Yeshiva administration was frightened.
This is extremely straightforward, and you seem to be the only one confused about it. I think the real reason that you can't seem to wrap your head around is because that YOU don't think that Torah protects, as you've said numerous times. So it's kinda like me having trouble believing that intelligent Indians really, really believe that they are created and governed by a bunch of action figures. You are so far removed from believing in the Torah's protection that you have trouble understanding that anyone else really does.
"It is simply not practical to leave all Yeshivos running 24/7." It is extremely straightforward to arrange things so that different yeshivos take vacations at different times. And if you believe that lives are at stake, this is exactly what should be done.
Well, theoretically you may have a point, and there has even been a strong push in the past to do that a few times, but:
1. Bein Hazmanim of Nissan and Tishrei is an old tradition (which even has a source in Chazal), and like any tradition, it is hard to change (and summer bein haznanim goes back at least to the 19th century European Yeshiva era).
2. Being that we are in golus and lack central authority, it is very hard to make any large-scale communal change that involves many parties. As someone who is involved in klal related work in the US, I would call it next to impossible.
3. It is not as if this happens every bein hazmanim. There are some years that nothing out of ordinary happens. Yet every few years, we have bein hazmanims like this.
4. It is not as if there is no Torah learning happening during bein hazmanim. Most bachurim and avreichim maintain regular sedarim of a few hours during bein hazmanim. And when calamities such as these befall us, we are capable of increasing in Torah study, even during bein hazmanim.
So basically, it's easier said than done.
Ah, so it would be a great way to save lives, but it's organizationally too difficult? Gosh, maybe they should get the IDF to help them schedule things.
Great idea.
Akiva,
yes it is סכנת נפשות so no excuses.
“It is not as if this happens every bein hazmanim.”
So, decreasing Torah study doesn’t always cause calamities to take place? What determines whether it does or doesn’t? 🤔
You gotta ask God.
That seems a very reasonable approach. Perhaps we should indeed leave questions of theodicy to Him, rather than make up reasons for why bad things happen.
Uh, just we didn't make it up. Chazal (Berachos) say that when bad things happen, we can assume that the reason most likely is a due to a decrease in Torah study.
All the more so when it happens during bein hazmanim.
It's an 'old tradition', yeah back to the 'mesorah' again, never fails.
Don't you know that it's an old tradition that in times of war or danger, we are Machmir to take off on Bein Hazemanim? I mean every knows that tradition.
F- for reading comprehension.
Specious. Volozhin, one yeshiva (much smaller than the Mir and several others), had students learning practically 24/7, even during bein hazmanim.
Yacov,
This protection ideology as in the extreme is not chazal but political nonsense.
you can take the charedim out of the ghetto, but ya can't take the ghetto mentality out of charedim. Please request that das toireh people substantiate their irrational claims and statements Remind them why Jewish armies are required to do battle on Shabbos
You might even suggest they put down the Talmud and learn TaNaCh
You have a great blog, R Slifkin, but your detractors have the mindset of 19th century shtetl dwellers and kollel bochrim(who probably believe R Akiva's students literally died in a plague [Chazal's codeword for rebellion - not a good word to mention when living under foreign domination]
A guy who can speak of "kollel bochrim" is probably not the best person to be lecturing others on anything relating to learning...
'Acquiring a wife' doesn't mean one sheds the appellation 'bocher' - you can have 12 children and still remain a jejeune 35 yr old
BTW the idea that chazal were charedim is so outrageous, so eastern european and so ignorant.
Uh, obviously no one thinks that they wore contemporary Chareidi garb, spoke Yiddish, and whatnot, but their value system was far more in-line with that of Chareidim than that of liberal MODOX, which is antithesis to their teachings in so many ways. I IYH have a few in-depth posts coming up on Irrationalist Modoxism on this very topic.
I am not sure if any 2 people have the same definition for who or what modox is, let alone liberal.
Haredim I can at least differentiate between Israeli and non Israeli in some respects; and das toyreh vs non das toyreh -- certainly very binary and generic, when in reality am yisrael is a very complicated and unconventional Venn diagram
"Acquiring a wife doesnt mean..." - actually it does, and to claim otherwise means you're either speaking your own language or making up definitions to suit your own tastes.
Garvin, you are a bocher - i'm not litvish, so i say 'bucher' Your inability to distinguish between figurative and literal is disappointing.
Bucher, you need to get out into the real world and see how people struggle every day to eke out an honest living; go comfort the sick and the dying, try helping someone who has been attacked and is bleeding to death.
Get back to me after you've had a few of these experiences - and don't be an asshole and reply prematurely
And yet again, another left winger who can't write without resorting to disgusting nivul peh. Thanks for proving the point.
You are a Boucher- I’m a registered Republican and no doubt much more conservative than you are!
My advantage is that I’m at least 40 yrs older and have gone through what I suggested you might try experiencing; and by responding the way you did -
You just proved what a miserable supercilious progressive woke parasite-asshole you are
Go out and get a life
Why do u object so robustly to the term "kollel bochrim" that u think its usage invalidates the speaker's opinions?
As you ask like a gentleman, Kollel is for marrieds, and Bochurim are singles. Anyone unaware of that in the heat of a debate can expect to be jeered & sniggered at for that lapse in their knowledge, and have the remainder of their comment hooted at and dismissed
Literary devices are not taught in yeshiva. Too bad one needs to dumb things down.
I know very well the difference, and have put my time and money where mouth is to support a kollel.
Mr. Coyote--Some1's failing to make that purported distinction among word choices is an insignificant error, (if it is indeed an "error"), in no way detracts from the thrust of some1's arguments or opinions. U r desperately over-reacting, clearly intentionally, to shout down an opinion with which u disagree. Your endless amplification of Kenneth's "error" is more hammy than a footballer's play-acting serious injury to draw a penalty upon their opponent.
Rebbes (and Alan Dershowitz) do it all the time to suppress purported apikorsim. Unfortunately, some bochrim, maybe u, pick up the habit. While u at at it, feel free to criticize my use of text abbreviations to dig yourself a deeper hole.
Kindly bear in mind once and for all that I'm not a desperate commenter, let alone intentionally shouting...; I rarely raise my 'voice'. I was explaining to you what you asked about others.
Generally speaking, where there's a cultural gap and one party feels that the other can't see across it at all, but in a way that isn't easily quantified, and the other also made a tangible albeit insignificant error, the first party will point out the latter in attempt to convey that the other party, in their opinion, is clueless in general of what goes on on the other side. I've seen this among atheists, agnostics, believers; Jews, gentiles--anyone and everyone.
Huxley did something similar to great effect in his 1860 debate with Wilberforce.
Chill, good man, chill.
Coyote, u r very desperate. U invalidated a person's opinion because of a SMALL terminology maybe-error, as per you: Anyone unaware of that...can expect to be jeered & sniggered at for that lapse in their knowledge, and have the remainder of their comment hooted at and dismissed."
Unaware of "that" WHAT? A terminology error? You: "The first party will point out the latter in attempt to convey that the other party, in their opinion, is clueless in general of what goes on on the other side."
U r desperate, Dude. U r probably 1 of the idiots that dismisses my frum brother-in-law because he cannot gutturally pronounce khof and khet!
Well said, except that I would not call the error insignificant. To be so unfamiliar with such basic terminology betrays such a woeful understanding of the subject in question, that it is not worth one's time to engage the individual further in discussion.
I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Try studying gemara in the context of historical, political, socioeconomic circumstances. You will never understand chazal if you do not attempt to understand their world They lived in the real world, not in an ivory tower - and those who got stuck in the tower were instructed to go into the marketplace, mingle with the ordinary people and observe the day to day comings and goings: Chazal did not presume to have haredi privilege, which affects so many people these days and has not produced an original thought in a generation
thank you for that enlightening response; although I will grant you that diphtheria epidemics have been described in ancient times. I was not aware that "Contact with amei ha'aretz was severely limited, due to the Halachos of Tum'ah and Taharah,' even though we are speaking of 'post-churban' period extending over a few hundred years.
'historical, political and socioeconomic circumstances' are completely unknown to us,' is a baseless statement, perhaps stemming in part from your contempt for academics, to say nothing of us feeble-minded apikorsim
Actually, there are very little contemporaneous accounts of Chazal at all. A little from Josephus but that's about it.
actually not, but you avoided all the issues
As I read the comments, I ponder why certain people come to rage at Rabbi Slifkin while a simple "I disagree, here is why" would suffice. I also ponder why certain other people use this comment section to express their anger at a God they don't believe in.
So much irrational behavior. To paraphrase the words of a certain sci-fi character "Consider the illogic of wasted energy."
Actually I agree with Rav Edelsten that Charedim did enable many of the recent tragedies/ disasters, but not for the reason he gives. They have contributed to the division that has turned Jews against each other. They have increased wanton and needless dislike and hatred (Sinat Chinam). When our enemies see they we are not united, when reserve officers threaten not to report for duty, when we came close to all out civil war.. they rub their hands in glee and take the opportunity to strike out against us. That has caused tragic loss of life.
Working from the premise that the universe would cease to exist if all Torah study were to cease even for a moment, R’ Chaim Volozhiner instituted round-the-clock “mishmaros” in his yeshiva so that, at least in Volozhin, someone was always learning Torah (for the sake of the rest of the world). It’s worth noting that:
A) Reb Chaim did not seem to believe that the protective effect of Torah study was geographically or spatially limited (i.e., as long as someone was learning in Volozhin, the rest of the universe was OK), and
B) It wasn’t necessary that *everyone* always be learning, just that someone was always learning.
What an ignorant comment. R' Chaim held that there always has to be at least one person learning in the world or else the world would cease to exist. This has nothing to do with what we are talking about, which is the concept of Torah protecting. See this article https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect which brings many proofs from Chazal that A. The more Torah learned, the more protection gained from it. B. That the protection is stronger where Torah is being learned.
So, by that logic, couldn’t yeshivos simply coordinate “mishmaros” (like Reb Chaim did) and maybe, ya know, not all take vacation at the same time? Seems like a lot of lives could be saved that way…
Its a Jewish thing to take blame for not living up to observance. From the times of Tanach the leaders have used any calamity happening to us as a sign that we have not lived up to our standards in Torah. Other nations blamed it upon the enemy, or their gods, or nature etc and they are no longer exist as peoples, but we always blamed it on our lack of observance everytime. And our Rabbis continue to lead us in the same true and trusted way.
Taking blame means taking responsibility. If the problem is bein hazmanim, then stop having a simultaneous bein hazmanim for all the yeshivos!
Yeh you might solve the problem of the tragedies. However the yeshiva system is what saved Yiddishkeit when everybody was going OTD and assimilating in Europe. If we change something then we don't know if that could ruin the great thing we have going that has saved Judaism and the world and produced millions of dedicated frum Yidden, when things looked like they would die out altogether. Unless the person is a major Godol Hador with immense Daas Torah. In that case then they have the authority but most Roshei Yeshiva will still not listen to them unless they are the more radical type.
Reasonable fear. However it leads to stagnation when the world changes around us and what worked..... doesn't. Internal change happens as well ( as second and third generation roshei yeshiva and rabbanim fill positions held by people who grew up in a radically different world). So we just wait for the "inevitable " breakdown and then "bshas hadchak " (under duress) we invoke "eis laasos" and make the changes we should have implemented on our own.
Nah. Lots of other belief systems say "Our Faith is perfect. If something bad happens it's because we didn't do it hard enough." Every time there's a natural disaster in the US the Gospel Grinders say "It's because we didn't oppress the Gays/Black people/Latines/Jews/liberals *ENOUGH*. Or " Forget policy. What we need to do is offer thoughts and prayers."
The non-falsifiable assertion is the hallmark of religion (and other mass movements.). Things that cannot be proven false (or true) and therefore can’t be argued against. “Faith can move mountains.” “Well, I have faith and can’t move mountains.” “You lack true faith.”
This is the stock and trade of the manipulative mass movement leader. His go to tactic.
Magical thinking is the opposite of living in the real world
“Latines”?
A non-gendered term invented by Spanish speakers to describe Spanish speakers
I’m aware. That doesn’t make it any less dorky.
What is "dorky" about that term? Do u have a non-dorky alternative? Labeling a term as "dorky" to be pejorative does not work after u graduate 8th-grade debate. In fact, doing so is retarded.
“Retarded”! 😂
What’s “dorky” about it is that it is just one of many clumsy attempts to de-gender traditional language (typically motivated by well-meaning—but ultimately retarded—“woke” ideology).
Granted, “Latine” is less clumsy that some, but that doesn’t change the fact these silly and unnecessary neologisms are almost universally reviled by the Hispanic folks whom they patronize.
Indeed, guilt-tripping is a long-misused Jewish tool to get people to do stuff they do not want to and that u cannot make a good case for them to do it. Read up Nietzsche on Ethics.
When I was in the yeshiva, many learned bein hazmanim. This was true for both a DL and charedi yeshivos that I'd learned in. The reasons for bein hazmanim are obvious. The subject has been discussed numerous times and has become an obsession on this blog. I would guess, that something must be going not as expected with the chinuch of Slifkin's kids. Remember that as a general rule: כל באיה לא ישובון, good intentions not withstanding.
Slifkin hit a new low again. He looses this round hands down.
My rules are simple:
1. No substantive reply to Slifkin and he wins aoutomatically, which is most of the time.
2. A substantive reply is judged on its merits.
3. A rediculous post, which didn't use to happen very often, is an aoutomatic loss for him.
In my yeshiva days bein hazmanim was the time of intense preparation for the next zman. Nothing would realy change.
Yeah, but you said that Rabbi Slifkin won the Torah protecting fight besides the fact that the other side offered a very substantive reply and Rabbi Slifkin got himself all tied up in knots trying to respond to them.
It should first be noted that you have yet to actually prove Charedim dont truly believe that Torah protects. In fact, last month you claimed there was a massive increase in Charedim applying for gun permits, and still haven't offered a word of proof to back that up. (You embedded a hyperlink to an article, which itself gave no evidence, whatsoever, to back the claim up.) So the whole premise is fatally flawed.
With that said, I personally share your belief that at least some Charedim dont truly believe the official claims, and use it as a convenient motto instead of their real reason for avoiding the army, viz, its corrupting influence. OK, let's assume arguendo that's true - what of it? All of modern society is based on official statements of position that party members themselves don't believe. Most Communist party members never believed their own propaganda, leaders of the US Democrats don't believe most of their own public statements, and neither do plenty in Republican leadership. The same is true in CEO messaging to the employees; they don't believe in many of the actions they've been forced to take because of a few powerful fund managers. So, at most, you've made an unproven claim that some in the Charedi world are the same as the rest of the world. We can live with that.
Most people know how to "sincerely" convince themselves (falsely) that their position is not merely a cover for their own self-service.
We all know the reason the charedi leadership doesn't want their youth to serve in the army has almost othing to do with learning torah and is more about not exposing their youth to outside influences. After all, the girls don't do sheirut leumi. I find this fascinating as they pray for kibbutz galiyot and moshiach all the time. Will they then be willing to serve in an army. There will also be outside influences. When push comes to shove, they want to continue living in the galut while physically being here.
BTW, The brisket Rav wanted to leave Palestine leading up to the war of independence because of the possible dangers and needed to be persuaded to stat.
You are correct that you and I know what the real reason is, but a lot of people try to pretend otherwise.
You keep saying that people are "pretending otherwise", but so far, all the evidence that you have brought is 100% to the contrary. In fact, this very post proves otherwise! Here you are mocking R' Edelstein for thinking that the increase in calamities is a result from the decrease in Torah study and for advocating for increasing Torah study. Last month, you were mocking R' Zilberstein for the same thinking. And so on. Of course, this is all endemic of Chareidi rubes who actually believe what Chazal say. He he he.
So far, the only one "proof" you have that Chareidim don't think that Torah protects was from one Yeshiva relocating from Ashdod to Beit Shemesh during one of the Gazan wars. But it just so turns out that the reason why they left had nothing to do with them not thinking that Torah protects!
Of course, there is also the obvious reason for not wanting to send kids to the army. But that does not preclude believing in the Torah's protection, exactly as Chazal say in numerous places. So seriously, what is so hard to understand about this??
"So far, the only one "proof" you have that Chareidim don't think that Torah protects was from one Yeshiva relocating from Ashdod to Beit Shemesh during one of the Gazan wars."
There is also the increased security at the gates of kiryat sefer and demands for extra security in beitar, which you tie yourself up in knots trying to explain away. Plus demanding special gas masks for those with long beards.
Plus the complete self-contradiction in ignoring everything the talmud has to say about protection from disease also provided by torah learning. To which the obvious answer is that chareidim can't get anybody else to take the diseases for them.
There are plenty of examples, but needless to say you don't want to look.
I don't ignore you in principle. I promise you, as soon as you respond with a comment that makes sense, I will respond.That also goes for you sock puppet, Test.
You must have figured that out cause his comments were so testy ;)
Nope. I figured it out a long time ago because they both have the same exact writing style, say the same types of things, and seem to have zero reading comprehension, either because this English bloke is not too intelligent or is intentionally dreying people a kup.
So why don't you write a post relating to the real reason?
Rabbi meshulem dovid soleviechik the brisket ravs son is quoted as bemoaning the idea that "we" don't serve in the army because Torah protects and that the right reason not to serve is because in present circumstances it is forbidden to serve due to the detrimental religious atmosphere.
I like that: the "brisket rav"! I used to call it the "brisk Lipton tea" school of learning. I referred to the Rogatchover Gaon as the rugalach rav.
Writing tip: when an opinion piece ends with a platitude, e.g., "it's as simple as that," u acknowledge u have not really made a convincing logical argument. Similar useless platitudes, like ending a piece "Period" r equally unconvincing. Likewise, starting a piece with a platitude is a total turn-off, like "would somebody please tell me why..," as r silly analogies like, "well if u r so pro-life as to ban abortion, why r u not pro-life enough to ban the death penalty?"
It goes without saying that people adopt positions that not-coincidentally jive with own their self-interest. Do 80% of rabbi-written Talmudic agadtas just "coincidentally" promote the primacy of rabbinic rulings, over Biblical rules or even verbal directives from God (like a bat-kol)?
Have you studied Malbim, Torah Temima, &/or Ksav Vekabala?
You're also apparently ignorant of how the commentaries address "bat- kol".
I am not ignorant, just unconvinced by roundabout non-explanations of a well-known term. As a finale, God's overtly praising rabbinical methodology was the icing for the amaratzim who did not get the message the 1st time.
I'm not much of a scuffler.
If indeed you have the source material for an informed decision and already arrived at whatever conclusion, I'll withdraw amicably from the discussion.
But if not, I'd give you some references with which to inform yourself.
So which Sugyos & Mefarshim have you seen, so I'll know if I have anything to add?
---
"As a finale, God's overtly praising rabbinical methodology was the icing for the amaratzim who did not get the message the 1st time."
What are you saying? I didn't get it the 1st time(! ;) ).
1) Thanks, I believe I have enough info on the topic, having studied it with an MO rabbi/scholar.
2) I meant that the rabbi-writers of this midrash wanted their message to be crystal clear: God concedes (with a chuckle) that, ultimately, the halakha is to be ruled according to their decisions, even when the omniscient Lawgiver himself feels otherwise. He is to be defied, even when he miraculously appears in the sky. After all, we do know that Yahweh dwells in the sky above, not in the deep seas or underground, like some of those other gods. U know, those poseurs who have eyes that do not, get this, see! (Chazal and the psalmist might do themselves a favor by taking Comparative Religion 101.)
When I learned in a kollel that went according to the Mifal HaShas program (20 daf/30 daf of Gemara, or 10 daf of Yoreh Deah/8 daf of Choshen Mishpat per month), they take off a bit from the load (9 daf Yoreh Deah/7 daf Choshen Mishpat) for the months of Tishrei, Nisan, and Av.
(Tishrei and Nisan I can understand, since people are so busy preparing for the holidays. But why Av?)
Yeshivos cannot be run like armies. There is one rosh yeshiva who does so to some extent. Fired my grandson after he was caught with a kosher pelephone.
If it really is that important it can be. Coordination between yeshivot would be a start. Make sure enough are always open so the students will always have a place to do their supposedly invaluable work. Deputize teachers to fill in when the Commander is on vacation.
Why not? No one has given a good reason for giving off a whole month in Nissan.
Nissan has so many holidays and partial holidays, that u may as well make a month of it. These Nissan holidays, more than most others, emphasize family gatherings, so bochrim need extra days for traveling between yeshiva and home city.
What holidays are there in Nissan aside from Pesach? A few days before pesach a few days after pesach would be plenty. 2 weeks before and 9 or 10 days after is way too much.
In Volozhan the Netziv had them learning 24/7. There were shifts, so that there would always be some torah learning. He himself covered the shift immediately after Yom Kippur.
Sorry that is ridiculous. If learning can save lives then they should be learning in yeshiva. Pesach was over last Wednesday night in israel. Yeshivas aren’t starting up again until next Sunday. That is a very long time. There are no holidays that I know of this week. The same applies at the beginning. They are off from Rosh Chodesh Nissan, that is 2 full weeks before pesach. That is way too much. There is no justification for that much time off today when travel is ridiculously easy.
It's fair to debate the wisdom of having a whole month off for Nissan, I myself think its too long. and plenty of yeshivahs in America - including Philly and Sharei Torah and Chafetz Chayim, among others - give off far less. There are many reasons that argue in favor of shortening it. But don't fall prey to going with NS's "if learning can save lives" rhetoric. It's a ridiculous bit of political posturing, and using it would automatically cause your arguments to be dismissed out of hand.
& BMG & MTJ & MRCB & MTV ...
You sure about BMG? I thought Lakewood was off the whole Nisan.
Many bochrim's home families live worldwide. If u find modern overseas air travel to be "ridiculously easy," u r very easy to please.
First of all the overwhelming majority of bachurim in Israeli yeshivas live in israel. Second of all air travel is easy. Get on a plane and in less then 12 hours in NY. In 4 hours you are in the UK. That travel time doesn’t justify a monthlong bein hazmanim
1 more time: I am not JUSTIFYING anything. I am merely explaining their thinking behind it. I propose we drop it, ok?
Pesach is 7-8 days, plus a few days for siyum b'chorim and other preps. If u believe in having a monthlong holiday once a year, Nisson is the best month to do it. University students get a 2-3 month block period off annually. It is accepted that hi-level students need that long of a break for rest and other projects.
We are talking about Israel, pesach is 7 days. Erev pesach is 1 day, that’s it. There are no other holidays. Stretching it out to a month is ridiculous.
You want to compare yeshiva students to university students? Torah lishma to studying for a degree?
Dayenu on the word "ridiculous," which u have used 4 times in the past hour. I was explaining the month-off phenomenon, not justifying anything. 2nd, I did not compare kollel to grad school, except to make the narrow point that it is recognized that serious hi-level students of any academic pursuit customarily have at least a month off every year. In no way did I make an overly broad comparison to the 2 types of students, and certainly not to any1's purported lofty vs. mundane motivations.
What happened to the Jews of who where studying torah. Seemed to have provided so much protection.
E