Last week you received a letter from an irate man decrying an article you wrote about a boy who went to Europe to collect for his sisters chasuna, only to have the money stolen as 'deeply upsetting' and 'tragic'. But it was not the plight of the protagonist that he found so 'tragic'. It's the fact that the boy's father was learning and not providing for his family, contrary to the maamar Chazal that one should even take on a humiliating trade to earn a living, rather than rely on charity.
The fact that many Poskim qualify that maamar Chazal as someone not learning Torah, (as for one learning Torah there are numerous mamarrei Chazal that espouse supporting Talmidei Chachamim from Tzedakah) is irrelevant to the author. He seems to have done zero research into it as a halachic topic. Because in fact, the Halacha and defying Chazal is not actually what irks him. If it were, he would stop in horror at the numerous disregards and ignorance for not only Chazal but also Mitzvos Doiraysa that so define the community to which he belongs. He would at least express some pause at the fact that its educational system seems absolutely broken. He himself has absolutely no issue with posting Reformist 'halachic articles' which attempt to permit issurim that are possibly D'oraysa. What infuriates him is the same thing the infuriates Avigdor Lieberman and all the other haters of Torah. They see zero value in Torah study and absolutely loath those who devote their lives towards it, especially when they don't contribute to secular Israeli society. They can't wrap their minds how people can live such ascetic lives, devoid of gashmius and shmutz and yearning only 'fluffy spirituality'. Luckily, he conveniently was able to find a purported maamar Chazal to hide behind. But other than perhaps himself, he is fooling absolutely no one.
"The fact that many Poskim qualify that maamar Chazal as someone not learning Torah, (as for one learning Torah there are numerous mamarrei Chazal that espouse supporting Talmidei Chachamim from Tzedakah) is irrelevant to the author. He seems to have done zero research into it as a halachic topic." Actually, I've done plenty of research into it as a halachic topic, and I've even written a study of it - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/economics-of-torah-scholarship-in. Please quote sources for all the Poskim and Maamarei Chazal to which you refer.
Dude, it's literally a Beis Yosef (יו"ד סי' רמו ד"ה ומ"ש כל המשים). The Biur Halacha (סי' רלא ד"ה בכל) brings down from the Dvar Shmuel that if by working one will be an Am Ha'aretz by going to work, then it does not apply. As does the Igros Moshe ( יו"ד ח"ב סי' קטז). The famous Tashbetz (סי קמ"ז) that we pasken like (יו"ד סי' רמו) literally addresses this very Gemara in Psachim! Seriously. Look it up.
If you are not an am ha'aretz, that's beautiful. I'm very proud of you. Maybe you can even attribute it to your Charedi upbringing. The fact of the matter is, the ignorance in Torah in the community to which you belong is astounding. I'm talking about ignorance about Mitzvos and Issurei D'oraysa. So I just find it amusing that you strut around like a proud peacock seeking to draw attention to relatively minor imperfections in the society of Jews attempting to follow the Torah as well as possible, while you guys are at large clueless about the most basic things.
I'm well aware of these sources, I discussed them in my monograph and blog posts, and they do not at all undermine Chazal's directives in the way that you claim. And in September, I pointed out that even Tashbetz, who is presented by Ramoh as a "yesh omrim" at the most pro-taking money end of the spectrum, STILL says that it is better for them to spend less time learning and work to support themselves rather than rely on the community. And you claimed that "Es la'asos" means that we don't follow Tashbetz on this. So the bottom line is that you believe that the current circumstances justify being even more lenient than the most lenient views on this topic, and I do not. But don't claim that you are accurately reflecting the view of Chazal and the Rishonim.
Uh, no. That's not what happened. First of all, I pointed out to you then that you MISREAD the Ramoh. The machlokes quoted in the Ramoh is whether one being supported in learning is permitted to take enough money to live comfortably, or whether he must suffice with the bare minimum. It is not whether or not we pasken like the Tashbetz. If this is not clear enough to you from the Ramoh, look up his primary sources, as well as the Poskim which quote him such as the Aruch Hashulchan.
You then made up that the reason why the Beis Yosef and Tashbetz ruled that it is permitted to take money for learning (as opposed to teaching) is because they were talking about 'eras where it was so rare to have someone dedicated to Torah that it was Eis Laasos to bend the rules and support them'. This was completely fabricated by YOU and YOU only. I countered that first of all, if you would ACTUALLY READ THE TASHBETZ INSIDE, you will see that he quotes dozens of maamarei chazal which imply that supporting Torah scholars is a notable and worthy cause. And I added, that even following your fabricated caveat, nowadays is also an Es La'asos, just look at how unsuccessful other societies are that don't have a Kollel system.
Being that you don't seem able or willing to actually look up all the ma'amarei chazal quoted by the Tashbetz, IYH tonight when I have a chance I will copy and paste as many as possible, with their English translations, from Sefaria.
This seems to be a topic near and dear to your heart, yet you seem to have done astonishingly little research about it from primary sources. I suggest you take a sabbatical from your museum and research it well instead of continuously showing off your ignorance in public.
All your sources are either about doing business with a Torah scholar, or supporting teachers, or the voluntary support of select students. They are not about a entire section of society saying that they will learn and demanding that everyone else support them and not having the ability to support themselves.
Mecharker and Happygolucky I would like to appeal to you and everyone who contributes to the blog to do so with respect for those who oppose your view.
If each side would recognise or at least be דן לכף זכות that those he disagrees with, make their arguments לשם שמים then this should lead to
Attacking the argument
Not attacking any individual
Admitting when those you disagree with make some valid points worthy of consideration
No argument is black and white.
Don’t we learn from the plague which killled 24,000 of Rabbi Akiva’s students that Hashem is not happy with even the highest quality of Talmud Torah if if comes at the expense of ahavas chinam - unconditional love (or at least respect) for those one disagrees with?
Sam, you write so poignantly and in fact have a good point. But I would advise you to point this out to Natan. He (as well as his sycophants who love his blog) seem to feel that it is Ok to obsessively attack and besmirch an entire segment of the population with nasty and ad hominem attacks (although admittedly masked behind superb and witty writing skills) and then react in utter bafflement when people come and fight back. See my comment here, item 1:
Then why do you assume that Slifkin hates learning? The point he is making that if someone wants to have 10 children, they should be able to support them without relying on tzedakah. The story is definitely tragic, but it never should have happened.
Why do I assume he hates Torah? I am not assuming; he tells us that loudly and clearly almost daily! That is the THEME of this blog. He complains about people pursuing 'fluffy spirituality'. He complains about people learning Torah as not contributing to society. He doesn't seem to give a d@mn about a society that is extremely ignorant about Torah and Mitzvos and transgress on the most basic prohibitions, with nearly 30% - 40% of their kids leaving the path, because they are contributing to the GDP.
I'm very familiar with the Sugya. B"h I have a successful job from which I can support a family and I learn several nights a week. I have no problem if you want to be a fill time learner, just don't come to me for handouts and don't ask the government for help. If there is a parent, in-law or wife that wants to support their son/in-law or husband then they are a very special person.
True, I think we all agree it’s important to work and that’s part of the curse of man. But you really need to read the Mishpacha story (if you haven’t yet) and then the article. https://mishpacha.com/payback-time-3/
When I read the Mishpacha story I walked away with a feeling of wow, look what a sibling was willing to do for his sister, and look at the power of forgiveness.
R’ Slifkin calls it a “tragic story,” and harps on the one fact that the family was poor because the father didn’t have proper education, etc.
He calls it defying Chazal. The only one defying Chazal is R’ Slifkin who is clearly writing, angrily, to bring out a point that we all already agree on.
If everyone agrees you have to try to work hard to make money why is he writing his article other than to stir his own pot and cast shadows on naive Jews who haven’t read the actual article he is attacking.
This is a manipulative and dangerous way of writing.
R’ Natan Slifkin, I ask for your honesty and integrity, that’s all.
Haredi society (not individual haredim, to be clear) care more about their community norms than they do about the law. It doesn't matter how many times we show them Abot or Mishne Torah, it's always "eis laasois!" And the reason these excuses and pilpulim fly is because they're never even taught in yeshiva/kollel how to analyze a sughya properly and come out knowing a law with actual brevity, instead it's all pilpul to get desired outcomes.
This is one of the most insightful comments ever on this blog. And it applies in all directions and not just to chareidim. It’s cuts through and beyond the back and forth bickering, and focuses on a real lack that exists - the lack of real analysis (whether by choice or by limit of ability).
I would qualify that (at least from my own perspective) I don’t know if it’s “because they’re never taught in yeshiva/kollel how” or for some other reason, but the lack of analysis is a real issue.
From my perspective there is a lack of analysis and understanding of the halakhic legal system in all modern branches of Judaism (meaning the sects that have a name - modern orthodox, haredi, conservative etc). With haredi society I think there's an added element why it's like this, and that's because a lot of the leadership (with exceptions) want control over the people, whether consciously or not, so in order to keep the members of haredi society "in line" they don't teach them the law in a "halakhah pesuqah" type of way but rather put more effort into "shlugging up tosfos" but that doesn't actually help the people come out with a knowledge of the law
Point out what I'm missing. Haza"l said what they said and only more recent sources have really tried to pilpul out of it. I didn't even say specifically this sughya, but have you ever asked most yeshiva guys for a bottom line halakha?
Also it's not a conspiracy theory I'm pointing something out about haredi society, which I have enough experience actually having lived in to know
And Rabbi Levi bar Ḥama said that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said: God said to Moses, “Ascend to me on the mountain and be there, and I will give you the stone tablets and the Torah and the mitzva that I have written that you may teach them” (Exodus 24:12), ... “That you may teach them” refers to the Talmud/Gemara, which explains the Mishna. These explanations are the foundation for the rulings of practical halakha.
Rashi:
זה תלמוד/גמרא. סברת טעמי המשניות שממנו יוצאה הוראה. אבל המורים הוראה מן המשנה נקראו מבלי העולם במס' סוטה (דף כב.):
-Refers to the Talmud/Gemara: the explanation of the reasons of the Mishnayot out of which come the rulings of practical halakha. But those who rule practical halakha from the Mishna itself are called 'those who wear out of the world' in tractate Sota.
Rambam writes about his Mishna Torah that it is written in the style of Mishna, not of scripture or Talmud.
וכן ראיתי שלא אחברהו בלשון ספרי הנבואה לפי שהלשון ההוא קצר בידינו מהשלים עניני הדינים בו. וכן לא אחברהו בלשון התלמוד לפי שלא יבינוהו מאנשי אומתנו כי אם יחידים, ומלות ממנו זרות וקשות אפילו לבקיאים בתלמוד, אבל אחברהו בלשון המשנה כדי שיקל זה לרוב
The take home of this is that for practical Halacha the way to go isn't to suffice with Mishna and Mishna Torah. It's necessary to study the Gemara, which won't always leave you with the smoothest reading of the Mishna. Some explain that this is because Mishna is only a memory device, the logic and reasoning you have to do with the methods of the Gemara. The Mishna is so to speak anticipating that you'll do so before deciding the practical Halacha.
So Aboth is good as Talmud Torah, the greatest Mitzva. But for practical Halacha, you have to factor others things also.
The Gemara itself leaves much unexplained, many difficulties. These are resolved by the Poskim. At that point we arrive at the Halacha.
What's wrong with "Et Laasot"? There's such a thing. We need to look at the success of the alternate systems. If they don't pass the bar, then the "baseless" Et Laasot will have to be the only way to go.
I don't know where you were taught the Sugya. I'd love to learn a Sugya properly.
Et laasot is only really a modern reasoning. Haza"l used it in one place as the reasoning for why the Mishna was compiled. I dont even think there's a concrete issur in "writing down an oral tradition". Even if there were others, that reasoning would only be able to be applied by the beth din hagadol, not modern day rabbis who can't overturn rulings of the BDG. Et laasot as it is applied there and other places has no legal basis
Take a look at the Encyclopedia Talmudis entry הוראת שעה. You'll find extensive sources that it's much more than a 'modern reasoning'.
I can't answer for what your neighbors told you, but in our context Et Laasot is as good a reason as any to conduct ourselves not in accordance with Rambam's view.
So does Yad Eliezer provide support to kollel men who choose not to work, thereby perpetuating the poverty? Or do they screen to who they give food, so that it goes to people who legitimately need help due to external factors?
The Abba is described as being from the old timers of Jerusalem whose world was only Torah. He's not describing the general community he lives in which he grew up seeing growing all around him with house extentions.
Unfortunately, the charedi community is upside down. There is a strong emphasis on bein adam l'makom over bein adam lechavairo. Strong focus on the individual growth and their daled amos and no concern for the rest of the klal. Almost no appreciation or recognition of the significance of living eretz yisrael.
Its like a half baked cake. There are three components to Judaism. The Torah, the Am, and the Land. Unfortunately the charedim are taught that only one of the three is relevant. So its not just that they perceive being poor and learning torah all day as ideal thats a problem, its actually a lot more and runs deeper to a whole slew of issues.
Not disagreeing with everything you wrote but......Chareidim are actually very strong in bein Adam Lchaveiro. Just go and see how a family is treated by their chareidi neighbors when they have a baby. Look how many gemachim their are.
I am not referring to the amount they do for their own community and neighbors or what they do as part of chessed organizations. I know that they help out one another tremendously. And so does the modern orthodox community. My comment about bein adam l'chaveir refers to the rest of klal yisrael. If you notice Haredim live in mostly only charedi communities with little to no secular jews. Secular or even modern orthodox arent welcome in their communities. They dont preach to one another about going out and having ahavas yisroel with all jews. Their primary focus is their own torah oriented community with little concern for the rest of klal yisrael. If they truly cared about bein adam lchaveiro they would be out helping and supporting all types of Jews (again, i am not referring to chessed organizations. I am referring to the individual charedi families etc.) They would be in the front lines supporting soldiers etc. Imagine a modern orthodox jew collecting tzedeka for his yeshiva in their neighborhood. How many would give tzedaka to this person? And yet plenty of satmar and other charedim come to modern orthodox communities and they do get money for their yeshivas.
Right before the recent elections I ran into a charedi couple in Ramat bet shemesh. They asked me why I am not voting for Gimmel. After all they asked, arent I concerned about the level of torah commitment for klal yisrael? What about the chilul shabbos in Tel aviv? Shouldnt I be concerned about that? I replied that its important to think about the needs of the nation as a whole with many people who arent observant than just focus on Torah observance. I also added that I am more concerned about the ongoing Chilul Hashem that goes on in Ramat Bet Shemesh Bet than the chilul shabbos that happens in Tel aviv.
This finding would seem to relate to the question that keeps popping up regarding: why should donations to synagogues churches etc. be tax deductible, after all in a large proportion of cases the donors are parishioners at those institutions and the major beneficiaries of the funds that they donated?
But if religious commitment also has other benefits to society as a whole, such as by instilling a greater likelihood that those same beneficiaries will go out and do more volunteering or other activity to benefit society in other ways, then it would be a good trade off.
You should go out read how the secular wielded state power—exponentially greater than anything the Chareidim ever got their hands on—to compel their religious Chaveiro’s “bein Adam l’Makom” to be just like their own.
IIRC, the religious never forced even one secular person to be inducted into the religious camp. While the secular did so to the religious countless times.
Poignant to me is the young holocaust survivor whose parents went to heaven through the chimneys in Auschwitz. He was left with only one memento of his parents, his father's T'fillin. But his secular counselor threw it into fire. It too ascended to heaven where it met up with the father, while the boy was left alone with nothing. Bein Adam Lachaveiro personified.
I am not familiar with that story. While I don’t doubt that it is possible to have occurred in the manner in which you stated, I have asked for sources/citations in the past and have been often ignored (as if substantiating alleged factual statements were not important to have a real discussion).
Nevertheless, I certainly agree with the sentiment that Religious coercion and compulsion through wielding the power of the State in ANY direction (secular on religious; religious on secular; anything else) leads to resentment and is problematic at least for that reason and potentially for other reasons as well.
I will try to look for it. Maybe it's in the biography of Jacob Griffel, in the end. Or maybe in one of the books about survivors staying in the Maabarot.
Just as a general observation, when a person—any person, of any mindset, I believe—reads an episode that is consistent with his culture's paradigms, he doesn't find it remarkable enough to make note of it so as to be bring it out when needed. Sometime later he encounters someone with different paradigm and tosses it on the table. The job isn't complete if he'd like that other person to accept it. Indeed, I didn't do a complete job, as it was only icing on the cake for what I was trying to say. But hey! on a more central point we agree. Nice.
Over here we're talking about someone from a community where everyone around him is having money but not his family and his father is doing what he is doing as a part of the old timers of select individuals.
Really? The MODOX are better in bein adam lechavairo? That must be why they have blogs dedicated towards hate and proportionately WAY less chessed and charity in their communities than Chareidi communities! I would rephrase what you said. Their bein adam lechavairo may or may not be somewhat passible (how many MODOX really give a tenth of their money to charity?), and their bein adam l'makom is severely lacking!
By the way, the three components of Judaism that Chazal talk about are Torah, Avodah and Gemilus Chasadim, not 'The Torah, the Am, and the Land'. I admit what you mentioned are integral parts of Judaism, but not sure who decided to cast them as the 'three components' of Judaism, contrary to Chazal's take. That's the problem with a movement whose general population has an extremely limited knowledge of Torah and of Judaic history from primary Judaic sources. When they read a couple of English books written in the 20th century by post-modern thinkers or hear a Shabbat drasha or two, they ignorantly begin to formulate their entire concept of Judaism on that! כעיוור באפלה
You obviously dont know much about the modern orthodox community. There is plenty of bein adam l'chaveiro and bein adam l'makom. But unfortunately many only see through thier charedi lenses and cant recognize this.
Both the Torah and Eretz Yisrael were given to bnei yisrael as a 'yerusha'. They are tied together and therefore and integral part of yiddishkeit. Focusing only on Torah but not on Eretz Yisrael is half baked. Both are equally important.
As for Bein adam l'chaviero in charedi communites, I am not referring to the amount they do for their own community and neighbors or what they do as part of chessed organizations. I know that they help out one another tremendously. And so does the modern orthodox community. My comment about bein adam l'chaveir refers to the rest of klal yisrael. If you notice Haredim live in mostly only charedi communities with little to no secular jews. Secular or even modern orthodox arent welcome in their communities. They dont preach to one another about going out and having ahavas yisroel with all jews. Their primary focus is their own torah oriented community with little concern for the rest of klal yisrael. If they truly cared about bein adam lchaveiro they would be out helping and supporting all types of Jews (again, i am not referring to chessed organizations. I am referring to the individual charedi families etc.) They would be in the front lines supporting soldiers etc. Imagine a modern orthodox jew collecting tzedeka for his yeshiva in their neighborhood. How many would give tzedaka to this person? And yet plenty of satmar and other charedim come to modern orthodox communities and they do get money for their yeshivas.
Right before the recent elections I ran into a charedi couple in Ramat bet shemesh. They asked me why I am not voting for Gimmel. After all they asked, arent I concerned about the level of torah commitment for klal yisrael? What about the chilul shabbos in Tel aviv? Shouldnt I be concerned about that? I replied that its important to think about the needs of the nation as a whole with many people who arent observant than just focus on Torah observance. I also added that I am more concerned about the ongoing Chilul Hashem that goes on in Ramat Bet Shemesh Bet than the chilul shabbos that happens in Tel aviv.
We need to be concerned about all of klal yisrael and not just those who are like us or live in our communities. We are no longer in the shtetl. We are finally back in Eretz Yisrael after thousands of years of exile. Its time to work together to build our nation and look out for one another instead of just keeping our head down in torah and only focusing on our daled amos.
Good letter but I'm sure you know that the chances of them printing it is exactly zero.
Dear Editor,
Last week you received a letter from an irate man decrying an article you wrote about a boy who went to Europe to collect for his sisters chasuna, only to have the money stolen as 'deeply upsetting' and 'tragic'. But it was not the plight of the protagonist that he found so 'tragic'. It's the fact that the boy's father was learning and not providing for his family, contrary to the maamar Chazal that one should even take on a humiliating trade to earn a living, rather than rely on charity.
The fact that many Poskim qualify that maamar Chazal as someone not learning Torah, (as for one learning Torah there are numerous mamarrei Chazal that espouse supporting Talmidei Chachamim from Tzedakah) is irrelevant to the author. He seems to have done zero research into it as a halachic topic. Because in fact, the Halacha and defying Chazal is not actually what irks him. If it were, he would stop in horror at the numerous disregards and ignorance for not only Chazal but also Mitzvos Doiraysa that so define the community to which he belongs. He would at least express some pause at the fact that its educational system seems absolutely broken. He himself has absolutely no issue with posting Reformist 'halachic articles' which attempt to permit issurim that are possibly D'oraysa. What infuriates him is the same thing the infuriates Avigdor Lieberman and all the other haters of Torah. They see zero value in Torah study and absolutely loath those who devote their lives towards it, especially when they don't contribute to secular Israeli society. They can't wrap their minds how people can live such ascetic lives, devoid of gashmius and shmutz and yearning only 'fluffy spirituality'. Luckily, he conveniently was able to find a purported maamar Chazal to hide behind. But other than perhaps himself, he is fooling absolutely no one.
"The fact that many Poskim qualify that maamar Chazal as someone not learning Torah, (as for one learning Torah there are numerous mamarrei Chazal that espouse supporting Talmidei Chachamim from Tzedakah) is irrelevant to the author. He seems to have done zero research into it as a halachic topic." Actually, I've done plenty of research into it as a halachic topic, and I've even written a study of it - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/economics-of-torah-scholarship-in. Please quote sources for all the Poskim and Maamarei Chazal to which you refer.
Dude, it's literally a Beis Yosef (יו"ד סי' רמו ד"ה ומ"ש כל המשים). The Biur Halacha (סי' רלא ד"ה בכל) brings down from the Dvar Shmuel that if by working one will be an Am Ha'aretz by going to work, then it does not apply. As does the Igros Moshe ( יו"ד ח"ב סי' קטז). The famous Tashbetz (סי קמ"ז) that we pasken like (יו"ד סי' רמו) literally addresses this very Gemara in Psachim! Seriously. Look it up.
We already fought about this in September http://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2022/09/tzedakah-good-bad-and-ugly.html?showComment=1664076790344&m=0#c1114899727397286675 and I brought you a bunch of Maamarei Chazal that support taking Tzedaka for learning. There are many more Maamarei Chazal about it brought down by the Tashbetz in that series of Teshuvos which support Talmidei Chachomim taking Tzedaka for learning Torah. Forgot already?
Oh, and I've got news for you: Not being in kollel for twenty years does not equate to being an am haa-aretz.
If you are not an am ha'aretz, that's beautiful. I'm very proud of you. Maybe you can even attribute it to your Charedi upbringing. The fact of the matter is, the ignorance in Torah in the community to which you belong is astounding. I'm talking about ignorance about Mitzvos and Issurei D'oraysa. So I just find it amusing that you strut around like a proud peacock seeking to draw attention to relatively minor imperfections in the society of Jews attempting to follow the Torah as well as possible, while you guys are at large clueless about the most basic things.
I'm well aware of these sources, I discussed them in my monograph and blog posts, and they do not at all undermine Chazal's directives in the way that you claim. And in September, I pointed out that even Tashbetz, who is presented by Ramoh as a "yesh omrim" at the most pro-taking money end of the spectrum, STILL says that it is better for them to spend less time learning and work to support themselves rather than rely on the community. And you claimed that "Es la'asos" means that we don't follow Tashbetz on this. So the bottom line is that you believe that the current circumstances justify being even more lenient than the most lenient views on this topic, and I do not. But don't claim that you are accurately reflecting the view of Chazal and the Rishonim.
Uh, no. That's not what happened. First of all, I pointed out to you then that you MISREAD the Ramoh. The machlokes quoted in the Ramoh is whether one being supported in learning is permitted to take enough money to live comfortably, or whether he must suffice with the bare minimum. It is not whether or not we pasken like the Tashbetz. If this is not clear enough to you from the Ramoh, look up his primary sources, as well as the Poskim which quote him such as the Aruch Hashulchan.
You then made up that the reason why the Beis Yosef and Tashbetz ruled that it is permitted to take money for learning (as opposed to teaching) is because they were talking about 'eras where it was so rare to have someone dedicated to Torah that it was Eis Laasos to bend the rules and support them'. This was completely fabricated by YOU and YOU only. I countered that first of all, if you would ACTUALLY READ THE TASHBETZ INSIDE, you will see that he quotes dozens of maamarei chazal which imply that supporting Torah scholars is a notable and worthy cause. And I added, that even following your fabricated caveat, nowadays is also an Es La'asos, just look at how unsuccessful other societies are that don't have a Kollel system.
Being that you don't seem able or willing to actually look up all the ma'amarei chazal quoted by the Tashbetz, IYH tonight when I have a chance I will copy and paste as many as possible, with their English translations, from Sefaria.
UPDATE 11:46 PM
Did not have a chance yet, IYH tomorrow.
This seems to be a topic near and dear to your heart, yet you seem to have done astonishingly little research about it from primary sources. I suggest you take a sabbatical from your museum and research it well instead of continuously showing off your ignorance in public.
All your sources are either about doing business with a Torah scholar, or supporting teachers, or the voluntary support of select students. They are not about a entire section of society saying that they will learn and demanding that everyone else support them and not having the ability to support themselves.
Responding is great. But resorting to insults proves nothing and accomplishes nothing. It might make you feel good but it turns off the opposing side.
I wonder if such insults are עובר on being מלבין פני חבירו ברבים.
An ignorant response from an ignorant person. Many people that have a job also learn on the side. They either have a chavrusa or do daf yomi.
Huh? I know that. I also have a job and learn. When did I ever say anything to the contrary??!!
Mecharker and Happygolucky I would like to appeal to you and everyone who contributes to the blog to do so with respect for those who oppose your view.
If each side would recognise or at least be דן לכף זכות that those he disagrees with, make their arguments לשם שמים then this should lead to
Attacking the argument
Not attacking any individual
Admitting when those you disagree with make some valid points worthy of consideration
No argument is black and white.
Don’t we learn from the plague which killled 24,000 of Rabbi Akiva’s students that Hashem is not happy with even the highest quality of Talmud Torah if if comes at the expense of ahavas chinam - unconditional love (or at least respect) for those one disagrees with?
Sam, you write so poignantly and in fact have a good point. But I would advise you to point this out to Natan. He (as well as his sycophants who love his blog) seem to feel that it is Ok to obsessively attack and besmirch an entire segment of the population with nasty and ad hominem attacks (although admittedly masked behind superb and witty writing skills) and then react in utter bafflement when people come and fight back. See my comment here, item 1:
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/on-being-attacked-by-sharks/comment/11972856
Then why do you assume that Slifkin hates learning? The point he is making that if someone wants to have 10 children, they should be able to support them without relying on tzedakah. The story is definitely tragic, but it never should have happened.
Why do I assume he hates Torah? I am not assuming; he tells us that loudly and clearly almost daily! That is the THEME of this blog. He complains about people pursuing 'fluffy spirituality'. He complains about people learning Torah as not contributing to society. He doesn't seem to give a d@mn about a society that is extremely ignorant about Torah and Mitzvos and transgress on the most basic prohibitions, with nearly 30% - 40% of their kids leaving the path, because they are contributing to the GDP.
MODOX Yid indeed.
I'm very familiar with the Sugya. B"h I have a successful job from which I can support a family and I learn several nights a week. I have no problem if you want to be a fill time learner, just don't come to me for handouts and don't ask the government for help. If there is a parent, in-law or wife that wants to support their son/in-law or husband then they are a very special person.
True, I think we all agree it’s important to work and that’s part of the curse of man. But you really need to read the Mishpacha story (if you haven’t yet) and then the article. https://mishpacha.com/payback-time-3/
When I read the Mishpacha story I walked away with a feeling of wow, look what a sibling was willing to do for his sister, and look at the power of forgiveness.
R’ Slifkin calls it a “tragic story,” and harps on the one fact that the family was poor because the father didn’t have proper education, etc.
He calls it defying Chazal. The only one defying Chazal is R’ Slifkin who is clearly writing, angrily, to bring out a point that we all already agree on.
If everyone agrees you have to try to work hard to make money why is he writing his article other than to stir his own pot and cast shadows on naive Jews who haven’t read the actual article he is attacking.
This is a manipulative and dangerous way of writing.
R’ Natan Slifkin, I ask for your honesty and integrity, that’s all.
Thank you my holy brother
He was being honest. It is not praiseworthy to be a parasite and beg when you could and should earn a living
I like reading the comments 'chronologically'. But when I refresh the page, it switches to 'top first'.
Annoying!
Cheers anyway!
Maybe they’d more likely to print your letter if you were to sign it “Nosson Slifkin”…
You do realize that it is the law right? And that what I said is the simple understanding of what Haza"l said?
Haredi society (not individual haredim, to be clear) care more about their community norms than they do about the law. It doesn't matter how many times we show them Abot or Mishne Torah, it's always "eis laasois!" And the reason these excuses and pilpulim fly is because they're never even taught in yeshiva/kollel how to analyze a sughya properly and come out knowing a law with actual brevity, instead it's all pilpul to get desired outcomes.
Bobby,
This is one of the most insightful comments ever on this blog. And it applies in all directions and not just to chareidim. It’s cuts through and beyond the back and forth bickering, and focuses on a real lack that exists - the lack of real analysis (whether by choice or by limit of ability).
I would qualify that (at least from my own perspective) I don’t know if it’s “because they’re never taught in yeshiva/kollel how” or for some other reason, but the lack of analysis is a real issue.
Thank you for articulating it.
Thank you.
From my perspective there is a lack of analysis and understanding of the halakhic legal system in all modern branches of Judaism (meaning the sects that have a name - modern orthodox, haredi, conservative etc). With haredi society I think there's an added element why it's like this, and that's because a lot of the leadership (with exceptions) want control over the people, whether consciously or not, so in order to keep the members of haredi society "in line" they don't teach them the law in a "halakhah pesuqah" type of way but rather put more effort into "shlugging up tosfos" but that doesn't actually help the people come out with a knowledge of the law
Point out what I'm missing. Haza"l said what they said and only more recent sources have really tried to pilpul out of it. I didn't even say specifically this sughya, but have you ever asked most yeshiva guys for a bottom line halakha?
Also it's not a conspiracy theory I'm pointing something out about haredi society, which I have enough experience actually having lived in to know
Bobby, you sound like a nice guy who goes out of his way to avoid condemning individual Haredim and/or its entire leadership. I respect you for that. But I refer you to the following Gemara and Rashi https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.5a.3?lang=bi https://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Berakhot.5a.3.3?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en
וְאָמַר רַבִּי לֵוִי בַּר חָמָא, אָמַר רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן לָקִישׁ, מַאי דִּכְתִיב ״וְאֶתְּנָה לְךָ אֶת לֻחֹת הָאֶבֶן וְהַתּוֹרָה וְהַמִּצְוָה אֲשֶׁר כָּתַבְתִּי לְהוֹרֹתָם״. ..., ״לְהוֹרוֹתָם״ — זֶה תַּלְמוּד/גמרא...
And Rabbi Levi bar Ḥama said that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said: God said to Moses, “Ascend to me on the mountain and be there, and I will give you the stone tablets and the Torah and the mitzva that I have written that you may teach them” (Exodus 24:12), ... “That you may teach them” refers to the Talmud/Gemara, which explains the Mishna. These explanations are the foundation for the rulings of practical halakha.
Rashi:
זה תלמוד/גמרא. סברת טעמי המשניות שממנו יוצאה הוראה. אבל המורים הוראה מן המשנה נקראו מבלי העולם במס' סוטה (דף כב.):
-Refers to the Talmud/Gemara: the explanation of the reasons of the Mishnayot out of which come the rulings of practical halakha. But those who rule practical halakha from the Mishna itself are called 'those who wear out of the world' in tractate Sota.
Rambam writes about his Mishna Torah that it is written in the style of Mishna, not of scripture or Talmud.
וכן ראיתי שלא אחברהו בלשון ספרי הנבואה לפי שהלשון ההוא קצר בידינו מהשלים עניני הדינים בו. וכן לא אחברהו בלשון התלמוד לפי שלא יבינוהו מאנשי אומתנו כי אם יחידים, ומלות ממנו זרות וקשות אפילו לבקיאים בתלמוד, אבל אחברהו בלשון המשנה כדי שיקל זה לרוב
The take home of this is that for practical Halacha the way to go isn't to suffice with Mishna and Mishna Torah. It's necessary to study the Gemara, which won't always leave you with the smoothest reading of the Mishna. Some explain that this is because Mishna is only a memory device, the logic and reasoning you have to do with the methods of the Gemara. The Mishna is so to speak anticipating that you'll do so before deciding the practical Halacha.
So Aboth is good as Talmud Torah, the greatest Mitzva. But for practical Halacha, you have to factor others things also.
The Gemara itself leaves much unexplained, many difficulties. These are resolved by the Poskim. At that point we arrive at the Halacha.
Best.
What's wrong with "Et Laasot"? There's such a thing. We need to look at the success of the alternate systems. If they don't pass the bar, then the "baseless" Et Laasot will have to be the only way to go.
I don't know where you were taught the Sugya. I'd love to learn a Sugya properly.
Et laasot is only really a modern reasoning. Haza"l used it in one place as the reasoning for why the Mishna was compiled. I dont even think there's a concrete issur in "writing down an oral tradition". Even if there were others, that reasoning would only be able to be applied by the beth din hagadol, not modern day rabbis who can't overturn rulings of the BDG. Et laasot as it is applied there and other places has no legal basis
Take a look at the Encyclopedia Talmudis entry הוראת שעה. You'll find extensive sources that it's much more than a 'modern reasoning'.
I can't answer for what your neighbors told you, but in our context Et Laasot is as good a reason as any to conduct ourselves not in accordance with Rambam's view.
> food packages from Yad Eliezer
So does Yad Eliezer provide support to kollel men who choose not to work, thereby perpetuating the poverty? Or do they screen to who they give food, so that it goes to people who legitimately need help due to external factors?
See my post here very similar idea. https://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2011/09/entitled-to-tzedaka.html
https://mishpacha.com/payback-time-3/
The Abba is described as being from the old timers of Jerusalem whose world was only Torah. He's not describing the general community he lives in which he grew up seeing growing all around him with house extentions.
Chassidim work and also have lots of children.
You're talking about Israelis or Chutznikim?
Both. I have Chassidic relatives in droves.
Many indeed do, but the subject of this article is also a chassid.
Most by far do and at jobs that are needed to get society going and the diamond industry.
The protagonist in the story grew up in a Breslover family in Yerushalayim. They do not work in the diamond industry.
"His son therefore has to travel to go begging (which he describes as "earning money"). "
He did not say "earning money", but "raise that money". Don't make it sound worse than it really is.
In the article he speaks about the money that he earned with his blood.
"In the article he speaks about the money that he earned with his blood."
We'd have to see the original. It might be a figure of speech to the tune of "Damim Tarti Mashma" compounded by loss in translation.
Unfortunately, the charedi community is upside down. There is a strong emphasis on bein adam l'makom over bein adam lechavairo. Strong focus on the individual growth and their daled amos and no concern for the rest of the klal. Almost no appreciation or recognition of the significance of living eretz yisrael.
Its like a half baked cake. There are three components to Judaism. The Torah, the Am, and the Land. Unfortunately the charedim are taught that only one of the three is relevant. So its not just that they perceive being poor and learning torah all day as ideal thats a problem, its actually a lot more and runs deeper to a whole slew of issues.
Not disagreeing with everything you wrote but......Chareidim are actually very strong in bein Adam Lchaveiro. Just go and see how a family is treated by their chareidi neighbors when they have a baby. Look how many gemachim their are.
I am not referring to the amount they do for their own community and neighbors or what they do as part of chessed organizations. I know that they help out one another tremendously. And so does the modern orthodox community. My comment about bein adam l'chaveir refers to the rest of klal yisrael. If you notice Haredim live in mostly only charedi communities with little to no secular jews. Secular or even modern orthodox arent welcome in their communities. They dont preach to one another about going out and having ahavas yisroel with all jews. Their primary focus is their own torah oriented community with little concern for the rest of klal yisrael. If they truly cared about bein adam lchaveiro they would be out helping and supporting all types of Jews (again, i am not referring to chessed organizations. I am referring to the individual charedi families etc.) They would be in the front lines supporting soldiers etc. Imagine a modern orthodox jew collecting tzedeka for his yeshiva in their neighborhood. How many would give tzedaka to this person? And yet plenty of satmar and other charedim come to modern orthodox communities and they do get money for their yeshivas.
Right before the recent elections I ran into a charedi couple in Ramat bet shemesh. They asked me why I am not voting for Gimmel. After all they asked, arent I concerned about the level of torah commitment for klal yisrael? What about the chilul shabbos in Tel aviv? Shouldnt I be concerned about that? I replied that its important to think about the needs of the nation as a whole with many people who arent observant than just focus on Torah observance. I also added that I am more concerned about the ongoing Chilul Hashem that goes on in Ramat Bet Shemesh Bet than the chilul shabbos that happens in Tel aviv.
From just the other day-- https://matzav.com/observant-jews-volunteer-most/ are some admittedly vague statistics about the rates of Chareidi/religious/traditional/secular volunteer work. Undisclosed are the types of volunteer work, but Chareidim are 1/4 more involved than the closest competitor. See also here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel.
This finding would seem to relate to the question that keeps popping up regarding: why should donations to synagogues churches etc. be tax deductible, after all in a large proportion of cases the donors are parishioners at those institutions and the major beneficiaries of the funds that they donated?
But if religious commitment also has other benefits to society as a whole, such as by instilling a greater likelihood that those same beneficiaries will go out and do more volunteering or other activity to benefit society in other ways, then it would be a good trade off.
"Chareidim are 1/4 more involved than the closest competitor."
You seem to have forgotten about military service and sherut leumi. There is no bigger sacrifice in time and ones life than serving in the military.
"If they truly cared about bein adam lchaveiro they would be out helping and supporting all types of Jews ..."
I imagine they think that although bein adam lchaveiro is a crucial component of observance, in such cases other considerations take precedence.
“There is a strong emphasis on bein adam l'makom over bein adam lechavairo.”
They also have a strong emphasis of wielding State power to compel their Chaveiro’s “bein Adam l’Makom” to be just like their own.
“Strong focus on the individual growth and their daled amos and no concern for the rest of the klal.”
They also have a sting focus on wielding that same State power to i trample other Jews’ daled amot in order to expand their own.
Oh wait, looks like quite a few RZ politicians are jumping on this bandwagon to do the same.
If you give a mouse a cookie…
You should go out read how the secular wielded state power—exponentially greater than anything the Chareidim ever got their hands on—to compel their religious Chaveiro’s “bein Adam l’Makom” to be just like their own.
IIRC, the religious never forced even one secular person to be inducted into the religious camp. While the secular did so to the religious countless times.
Poignant to me is the young holocaust survivor whose parents went to heaven through the chimneys in Auschwitz. He was left with only one memento of his parents, his father's T'fillin. But his secular counselor threw it into fire. It too ascended to heaven where it met up with the father, while the boy was left alone with nothing. Bein Adam Lachaveiro personified.
@Don,
I am not familiar with that story. While I don’t doubt that it is possible to have occurred in the manner in which you stated, I have asked for sources/citations in the past and have been often ignored (as if substantiating alleged factual statements were not important to have a real discussion).
Nevertheless, I certainly agree with the sentiment that Religious coercion and compulsion through wielding the power of the State in ANY direction (secular on religious; religious on secular; anything else) leads to resentment and is problematic at least for that reason and potentially for other reasons as well.
I will try to look for it. Maybe it's in the biography of Jacob Griffel, in the end. Or maybe in one of the books about survivors staying in the Maabarot.
Just as a general observation, when a person—any person, of any mindset, I believe—reads an episode that is consistent with his culture's paradigms, he doesn't find it remarkable enough to make note of it so as to be bring it out when needed. Sometime later he encounters someone with different paradigm and tosses it on the table. The job isn't complete if he'd like that other person to accept it. Indeed, I didn't do a complete job, as it was only icing on the cake for what I was trying to say. But hey! on a more central point we agree. Nice.
Chareidim are Chareidim by rote.
Their father didn't work, and so their grandfather and so their great grandfather.
Why should we do any different?
Their father was "raising funds", and so their grandfather etc., etc.
It's free money, no reason to stop.
Over here we're talking about someone from a community where everyone around him is having money but not his family and his father is doing what he is doing as a part of the old timers of select individuals.
Really? The MODOX are better in bein adam lechavairo? That must be why they have blogs dedicated towards hate and proportionately WAY less chessed and charity in their communities than Chareidi communities! I would rephrase what you said. Their bein adam lechavairo may or may not be somewhat passible (how many MODOX really give a tenth of their money to charity?), and their bein adam l'makom is severely lacking!
By the way, the three components of Judaism that Chazal talk about are Torah, Avodah and Gemilus Chasadim, not 'The Torah, the Am, and the Land'. I admit what you mentioned are integral parts of Judaism, but not sure who decided to cast them as the 'three components' of Judaism, contrary to Chazal's take. That's the problem with a movement whose general population has an extremely limited knowledge of Torah and of Judaic history from primary Judaic sources. When they read a couple of English books written in the 20th century by post-modern thinkers or hear a Shabbat drasha or two, they ignorantly begin to formulate their entire concept of Judaism on that! כעיוור באפלה
You obviously dont know much about the modern orthodox community. There is plenty of bein adam l'chaveiro and bein adam l'makom. But unfortunately many only see through thier charedi lenses and cant recognize this.
Both the Torah and Eretz Yisrael were given to bnei yisrael as a 'yerusha'. They are tied together and therefore and integral part of yiddishkeit. Focusing only on Torah but not on Eretz Yisrael is half baked. Both are equally important.
As for Bein adam l'chaviero in charedi communites, I am not referring to the amount they do for their own community and neighbors or what they do as part of chessed organizations. I know that they help out one another tremendously. And so does the modern orthodox community. My comment about bein adam l'chaveir refers to the rest of klal yisrael. If you notice Haredim live in mostly only charedi communities with little to no secular jews. Secular or even modern orthodox arent welcome in their communities. They dont preach to one another about going out and having ahavas yisroel with all jews. Their primary focus is their own torah oriented community with little concern for the rest of klal yisrael. If they truly cared about bein adam lchaveiro they would be out helping and supporting all types of Jews (again, i am not referring to chessed organizations. I am referring to the individual charedi families etc.) They would be in the front lines supporting soldiers etc. Imagine a modern orthodox jew collecting tzedeka for his yeshiva in their neighborhood. How many would give tzedaka to this person? And yet plenty of satmar and other charedim come to modern orthodox communities and they do get money for their yeshivas.
Right before the recent elections I ran into a charedi couple in Ramat bet shemesh. They asked me why I am not voting for Gimmel. After all they asked, arent I concerned about the level of torah commitment for klal yisrael? What about the chilul shabbos in Tel aviv? Shouldnt I be concerned about that? I replied that its important to think about the needs of the nation as a whole with many people who arent observant than just focus on Torah observance. I also added that I am more concerned about the ongoing Chilul Hashem that goes on in Ramat Bet Shemesh Bet than the chilul shabbos that happens in Tel aviv.
We need to be concerned about all of klal yisrael and not just those who are like us or live in our communities. We are no longer in the shtetl. We are finally back in Eretz Yisrael after thousands of years of exile. Its time to work together to build our nation and look out for one another instead of just keeping our head down in torah and only focusing on our daled amos.