What a tasteless post. Accusing others of deflection when that's just about all you do!
Not once have you ever addressed the importance of torah and how literally nothing even comes remotely close to its toes in what matters in life. But opinions borne from utter ignorance, with the confidence of someone who knows what they're talking about, you have no problem sharing.
" Accusing others of deflection when that's just about all you do!"
What deflection are you referring to?
"Not once have you ever addressed the importance of torah and how literally nothing even comes remotely close to its toes in what matters in life. "
Part of RNS's point was that the Charedi political leadership has demanded that those who are learning Torah in non-Charedi frameworks should be taken away from their learning. Having just declared the " the importance of torah and how literally nothing even comes remotely close to its toes in what matters in life", do you agree with UTJ policy of drafting these students of Torah?
I'm referring to the deflection of pretending to be talking about one thing (fixing the world, making EY a better place, caring about the safety of klal yisroel) whole really talking about another thing entirely, wrapped nearly with this political wrapping paper; the craziness of the Chareidim following their mesorah. But never addressing their mesorah directly, only assuming that they're not even sincere and that their actual beliefs are completely illegitimate.
And once again, if we were to sit down and discuss the issue of Chareidim not joining the army, we might even find plenty of common ground, but to have this discussion time and time again without appreciating where the Chareidim are even coming from while pretending that you're trying to help - but really just wanting to tear down the already stupid mindless system - is a very different discussion to have. So let's stop pretending this is about something else.
Let's clear something up: When RNS writes about some contentious topic, he is writing about that contentious topic. Here, he's writing about the draft, and I don't agree with you that's he really writing "about another thing entirely". That's your interpretation. But by imposing your interpretation, you conveniently change the topic. That's deflection, isn't it?
No, I said in a different comment, there's a way to approach this topic as a friend who believes in the Chareidi cause, and a way to approach it as an enemy who wants to "tear down the system" anyway. If someone appreciates torah like the chareidim do, he says, "Listen up guys, we gotta figure out how to continue our mission but still be able to adapt to the situation." What rabbi doctor does is call or whole mission stupid and insincere and cruel. That's just furthering the divide, nothing else.
It could be we need people like him to create a scare that the government will stop funding and in order not to have a riot, the Chareidi leaders meet with the officials who are anti and stay making some sort of test and be mechazek everyone to start learning much much better (similar to chizkiyahu's yodaker b'cherev) and instead create better quality learning and teshuva. But our people shouldn't be on the won't side of history. I'm pretty sure Haman and the malshhinim on mordechai don't get any schar despite their noble outcomes.
"be mechazek everyone to start learning much much better "
More deflection. You still haven't addressed RNS's points - Why has UTJ demanded the draft of Yeshiva students, so long as they are not from the Charedi community?
He doesn't have to use your terminology. He has discussed the importance off limud Torah vs. work,vs Chesed, vs public responsibility to serve in the Army,vs continuous financial support by the govt.. Torah is important.The whole Torah not just sitting in the Beit HaMedrash which you consider the ultimate and reason for living.
Exactly my point! A ton of "torah vs..." but never how torah is in its own league. Which means we aren't even in the same wavelength. We are discussing completely separate value systems. But you wonder why we will never come to an agreement...
Yes, there are other things besides torah and whoever thinks torah is all there is, אפילו תורה אין בו, but at the same time all these other things can't diminish the value of torah which is beyond even a mitzvah, and not learning torah when you can is worse than any aveira. And don't forget, to a chareidi, the worth of a mitzvah is simply inexplicable in human terms, and an aveira c'v isn't just spilling soup. The values are constantly laughed at in the world outside of the BM. But we should compromise on those few places where we actually can teach and espouse these truths? תורה לאמיתתה מה תהא עליה??? That is not 'my terminology;' this is the Chareidi value system.
Appeal to emotion fallacy. Related to appeal to guilt fallacy.
This occurs when someone tries to win an argument by evoking emotion, without using facts or logic. Arguments that appeal to our emotions often attempt to influence our viewpoints in a manipulative way.
In other words, what you are saying is manipulative (charlatanism) and not a logical argument.
Actually, a major portion of the campaign to draft Yeshiva Bachurim has for years been relying upon evoking emotion. "My son needs to serve in the Army, why not yours?". "Our children are dying, why are there no funerals in Bnei Brak?". "We can't sleep at night, but Haredi mothers do just fine". Face it - the Haredim have a well-thought out and considered position, like it or not. They will not be moved by emotional arguments to harm the Yeshiva educational sysytem, which they view as central to Jewish life, and critically necessary for the future of Judaism.
Exactly. The entire sharing the burden discourse is exclusively about emotion. Nothing rational or logical in the slightest. That doesn't mean we should repudiate their emotions. But we should realize that this is what it is all about.
Arguments from emotion, I'm sorry to say, obfuscate the topic at hand. If you wanna not listen to our side and instead keep yelling at us about how selfish we are, go ahead. But don't expect us to listen.
So, the view of the chilonim is that charedim and chilonim are the same (for the purposes of this question of joining the IDF in order to fight and protect the nation.)
I think the chilonim are correct in this assertion. The two groups are the same.
First, Judaism does not embrace pacifism, and the charedim are not religious pacifists.
The chilonim are the same on this point.
Neither group has as principled/religious reason to not fight.
Second, is what the charedim do in life, actually “special?”
Well, it is special – to them. What they do is special – in their own minds.
The chilonim are the same, on this point, too.
Their lives are special – to them (and their parents.) What they do is special – in their own minds (and their parents.)
So, again, the two groups come up the same, but with different treatment as far as fighting and sacrificing to protect the nation.
The charedim want to justify a double standard. But they can’t, as there is no basis for it.
The chilonim are on firm ground when they object to the double standard for these two groups.
Sorry, Barry. traditional Judaism - to which Haredim claim adhrerence -, views creation, life, meaning, purpose, values, priorities, the nature of nations and the purpose of human existence differently than secular society. While some Modern Orthodox Jews share our perspective, a significant portion are closer to secular Israelis than to the positions we espouse. No compromise or understanding will ever be reached between Haredim and those who have no respect for our values, or with those who hope to harm our educational systems. Rabbi Dr. Slifkin's positions are not worthy of serious contemplation or response, as he, poor man, has spent a good portion of his life merely trying to publicly shame and embarrass Haredim, Gedolei Torah, Roshei Yeshivos and Yeshiva students, whatever today's cause may be.
Haredim are not pacifists by religion. They don't object to war, or killing.
Their values are safe, with respect to war fighting.
If they worry about an education system? Figure it out. Keep the system.
If they worry about some values being lost? Again, figure it out. Keep the values.
i don't recall them fearing financial dependence on secular society would erode their work ethic (isn't a man supposed to work according to traditional values? Fathers to teach sons a trade? I think the ketubah mentions it, too?)
They somehow made that difficult sacrifice, took the secular cash.
They just don't want to serve, if they don't have to. So they trade votes for not having to do something they don't want to do. Values are not involved.
These are political questions and wants. That's the lens to see it through.
"to which Haredim claim adhrerence -, views creation, life, meaning, purpose, values, priorities, the nature of nations and the purpose of human existence differently than secular society. "
Doesn't look that way browsing the ads in the Hemieshe Press - Mishpach, Ami Hamodia etc. There is more gashmiyous advertised in those than in a non Jewish newspaper. There was one I saw for a 'scent specalist' for your home!
How does ""to which Haredim claim adhrerence -, views creation, life, meaning, purpose, values, priorities, the nature of nations and the purpose of human existence differently than secular society. " fit in with Gur on Gur violence, mateh akum, long luxury sheitels, minyan factories, sushi resteraunts and all that stuff?
Which luxury hotel are you going to for Pesach? Seen the queus outside pizza places motzai pesach?
The values you claim chareidim have do not manifest themeselves particularly well, once you look deeper.
agreeing does not make it a logically sound argument. agreeing is due to bad arguments that sound good, but are not. happens all the time, PARTICULARLY in mass movements. Also, in pyramid schemes. sometimes in bad marriages, too.
You don't get what I'm saying. If rabbi doctor and I share a certain premise and I call him out for ignoring said premise and jumping to outgrowths of this more crucial point that ignore the root of it all, when addressing it would actually change the focus of the conversation, there is absolutely nothing fallacious about that.
"there is absolutely nothing fallacious about that. "
Absolutely nothing? Not even a little? Certainly, changing the topic on the excuse of focusing on "the root" can be fallacious, because it's not necessarily so that what you declare the "root of it all" is in fact relevant to the topic.
Once again, when trying to effect change, one needs to see the bigger picture. Otherwise he's just a whiner. It is very relevant. We, the frum Jews who believe in the torah, should be on the side of promoting not torah learning, not withholding it! And if there's a problem (there is), let's talk about it within that context!
If a wife tells her husband she loves him, and he tells her he loves her, and then she says "if you love me, you would never leave me alone to go bowling with your buddies!"
The second part does not logically follow from the first part.
You may both think Torah is a huge value. What that means to each of you is up for debate.
The use of bad logic that sounds good is an intent to manipulate (or guilt) the other party. It's inherently manipulative. Beneath you... but common to ALL mass movements, including religions.
First of all, first rule of debate: don't throw around debate words. It's super annoying.
Second, apparently you are not understanding my point at all. If we are on the same page that Torah is super important, this whole conversation takes on a different vibe. We would all be trying our hardest to maximize Torah learning while focusing on the issue as an important kink that needs a fixin'. Rabbi doctor is not doing that at all. He wants to tear down the stupid system entirely. These are two very different ways of addressing the issue, and his way will get nowhere with Chareidim.
"It's frustrating that no matter how much pain and harm the charedi community causes to the rest of Israel, they so often refuse to acknowledge criticism as an expression of that pain and as stemming from a genuine need to create change. Instead, it's always branded as "anti-religious incitement." This is a deflection which enables the charedi community to flip the narrative, paint themselves as victims, and avoid actually dealing with the criticism."
Instead of getting "frustrated" about a "deflection", how about.....actually stopping the anti-religious incitement? Everything on your website, including your descriptions of chareidim's emunah as "stupid religious beliefs" falls into the category of anti-religious incitement. Accept that chareidim have different religious beliefs than you. That's not changing. Try to work within that. Otherwise you are getting nowhere fast, except satisfying your own hatred.
Thank you for your comments about this egregiously unfair, and unjust situation. It has been allowed for far too long and always for political expediency. Now we are involved in an existential crisis in which the Charedi participation in the defense of our country and their help in those sectors, e.g. agricultural, require their help so that we can defeat our enemy and maintain our economy. The rabbis, to whom they listen, have to tell these yeshiva boys and young men studying full-time to get out there and join their brethren for the sake of our country. Please continue to keep this issue in the forefront of our attention.
What a thought provoking post, as always. On such an original topic! I've been reading this blog for quite some time, but this is the first I've heard of all these issues. What an eye opener. Kudos!
One question for you, Rabbi Slifkin. What's your position on Chareidim in the army? Have you ever studied that topic? Either way, thanks for your posts. Keep em coming. Maybe write an article about chareidim serving in the army, don't think you've discussed that yet. And don't forget to throw in something about Chareidim serving in the army, as well.
"Personally, I think that if one considers satire to be a legitimate tool of social commentary - which I think most people do, and even charedi newspapers have political cartoons - then I don’t see why charedim should be immune. "
And some people don't see why Slifkin should be immune!
Hey Slifkin, why do you call the belief that Torah protects "a stupid religious belief"? Link below. Do you think this type of rhetoric will convince chareidim to abandon their stupid religion and join?
Because it is a stupid belief. And you're making the same mistake that I discussed in the post. I'm not talking about "Torah" - I'm talking about the Torah of charedim aged 18-24 who ought to be in the army.
Oh wise rabbi doctor, a stupid belief you say, is it now? Are you aware of the sources that promote torah, especially that of full time learners, to the ultimate, supreme, maximum possible levels? Are you aware of the sources that tell us that torah is more important than even cheftzei shamayim? And that comes along with an understanding that cheftzei shamayim have values beyond anything this frivolous world has to offer! You, in your rationality, decided that these ideals are for only for idealistic teenagers and can't be real to anyone who understands "how this world works," but o my, what if the good rabbi doctor is mistaken?? What if these idealistic ideas are what all the mussar seforim are telling us and you thinking otherwise is nothing but a clear indication that you are spending too much time reading other (false) ideologies? And getting yourself worked up about it too a level of hatred towards those who do have their priorities straight!
(And I'll say again that this does not in any way condone the chareidim not joining the army at all. Only that if you actually want to move the conversation forward, you can't ignore their ideology. Which happens to be a valid form is Judaism, to say the least...)
Not sure we're taking about the same sources. I mean like Sefer Chareidim, orchos tzaddikim, shaarei teshuva, derech eitz Chaim, tomer devora, shaarei kedusha, mesilas yesharim etc.
It sure doesn't sound like that, Slifkin! You literally called the belief that Torah protects "a stupid religious belief", which by the way, is consistent with your rationalism, and then expect us to think you only magically mean " the Torah of charedim aged 18-24" but everybody else's Torah protects? I've got a bridge to sell you in Siberia.
If your so confident that torah protects, than surely chareidim wont mind if a law comes out that they must move to border communities in exchange for not joining the army.
Do you also think that the protection of Torah is a stupid religious belief? Why? Do you believe in God? Do you believe He protects you and your family? If the answer is yes, then you ought not think it is a stupid belief at all.
Gee, what if every young Israeli decided to study 'Torah' full time? Who would run and defend the state and its residents. Leave it to God. We don't need scientists, soldiers or politicians. We need more Bandana.
Yeah, the idea that Torah protects is a real stupid religious belief, right? Keep on saying it, you will surely convince chareidim to abandon their stupid religious beliefs!
Can you actually present a logical argument in coherent terms. Your emotional beliefs may (or may not) be admirable but are not relevant. Catch phrases are cute but not convincing. Are these 'learning' charedim prepared to forego IDF protection and the withholding of welfare payments.
I agree Rabbi Slifkin, from a rationalist perspective it doesn't prove anything. I just found it beautiful and interesting. Hatred is an inherent part of who we are as human beings, and while too much hatred could be harmful, we should to some degree embrace our nature.
Uh, you don't get the point of that comment, do you? There's nothing "beautiful" or "natural" about hatred. It's just people like you, Slifkin, and anti-Semites who pretend to be just anti-Zionists who look for excuses for hatred. That's the point.
Thank you for your response. There is no need to be rude. I didn't mean hatred is beautiful, I meant that this is a beautiful idea, because Maimonides stated that the ultimate beauty is truth, and I found that this idea resounded as truth for me. Hatred between groups is natural. Do you deny this? This is especially true for hareidim in a non-hareidi society, or Jews in a predominantly non-Jewish world, very distinct groups. Hatred is a very natural response when one population encounters another one that is very different from it, especially if one can pin it on some reason, like sharing the burden, "occupation", "genocide", disproportional control of institutions, etc. That is the actual point of the comment. I mean that instead of fighting nature, there should be a healthy outlet for hatred, which is speech, rather than violence. This is the wisdom of the Founding Fathers who foresaw the need for free speech.
This is ridiculous. The comment was very clear in what the point was. Nothing "beautiful" or "natural" about hatred. Everybody looks for excuses to hate people who are very different than them. Antisemites have plenty of excuses. Antichareidim have plenty of excuses. But at the end of the day, it is just excuses to engage for people to engage in their worst impulses, guilt-free.
The one point that I disagree with the entire attitude is that someone who is in the service of the army and who is sacrificing for the greatest good, can be upset at someone else who doesn't give the same sacrifice. It is the bystanders like R Slifkin, who are not actually serving who have an issue, not the actual service men. To actually want someone else to shoulder the burden diminishes their sacrifice immensely. A fireman or policeman does not begrudge a bystander because they don't help them. They do their job heroically because it is the right thing to do and they do it altruistically. The entire concept of shavei benetal is laughable. Being upset because someone from a different camp from yours didn't have a levaya to go to. That is so childish behavior. If you really believe that every bullet has an address then who is to say a charedi serving will get the bullet instead of a dati luemi person as if you can make a calculation like that. Those that believe that service in klal yisrael means joining the army and fighting to protect the Jewish people should not be looking over their shoulder at those who don't serve because if they really care about how much the other person is putting in then their service value is diminished. The value becomes quid pro quo rather than actual service of conviction. If a charedi person has an honest conviction that his service is to learn Torah for the Jewish nation then he should be allowed to choose that and others who feel that fighting protection is more valuable should take up that service alltruistically.
How many people do you know personally who recently spent >100 days in miluim? Have you asked them how they feel?
I'll explain what's wrong with your "logic" after Shabbat. It's not just about the calculations of death. Please educate yourself about how much time Israelis will have to serve going forward, and how that will affect every aspect of their lives. We can continue after shabbat.
I have seen the numbers on how much extra time people will have to serve and the extra hardship, and there is no denying the self sacrifice of those that serve and their families. My point is those that actually serve and their families need to frame their perspective that it is a heroic act for all of the Jewish people regardless of what other jews are doing and where they live in the world It is greater than someone who is learning without sacrifice no doubt about it. By demanding equality from everyone equally it diminishes the heroic act since it becomes evident that there are forces out of control involved instead of intent to actually be heroic. Should Israelis begrudge those in the diaspora since they are not physically involved? It brings to mind the story of two old men with numbers on their arm fighting in the mikvah and coming to blows. After asking what happened to cause them to fight, one of them said the other man claimed to be in Auschwitz for 4 months when he knew he was really there for only 3 months and he was there for 4 months so he knew the truth. It is sad when one jew cannot fargin another jew one month in Auschwitz .
Obviously the soldiers feel a sense of responsibility, and believe that they are doing something that is larger and more important than any individual.
But they don't want any sort of standing as heroes; what they would like is some additional manpower
A soldier is automatically thrust into a hero position and those who are hero material rise to the top. They don't choose it. The additional manpower should grow organically from in the charedi community, not one that is for fostered upon them. When the IDF enterprise acts in a way that is accommodating to their religious sensibilities then those suited to the position will volunteer organically since that is what their purpose in life is. A soldier who is being forced to conscript is a mercenary and is a horrible soldier and will not be successful.
" If a charedi person has an honest conviction that his service is to learn Torah for the Jewish nation then he should be allowed to choose that and others who feel that fighting protection is more valuable should take up that service alltruistically. "
But UTJ is demanding that certain Yeshivah students stop learning and join the army.
You're very into that argument. that's because they're willing to give in without a fight. Part of their value system is that there are things equal to the importance of torah. They can fight as much as we would if they want.
" that's because they're willing to give in without a fight."
So are you saying that Yeshiva should only be drafted if they don't protest? Why then is UTJ demanding that those Torah students should be drafterd instead of demanding that those Yeshiva students should protest against the draft?
"They can fight as much as we would if they want."
I asked you about UTJ's demands that Yeshiva students be drafted. You deflected and changed the topic to whether such students should protest. Stay on topic and answer: Do you agree with UTJ that these Yeshiva students should be drafted?
If they will learn with the same chashivus of what they do as a chareidi has, sure they shouldn't be drafted!
Now, can you concede a bit as well, that torah is more important than anything in the world bar none? (Not chalila at the expense and to the exclusion of other things, but that it is way higher on the totem pole of values)
Let's try to find common ground here. I 100% agree that just by virtue of being a chareidi shouldn't a person be exempt. But I also think that the values taught in yeshivos are found nowhere else and if anything we need more not less of that.
"If they will learn with the same chashivus of what they do as a chareidi has, sure they shouldn't be drafted! "
And where is you source for this distinction of yours? We've been told that not a single Torah student may be drafted- no matter whether he be of the rare elite or the common masses. Now, you claim that there are Torah students who can be drafted. Oddly, you hold that the students from an elite Hesder Yeshiva should be drafted, but none of the weaker and unmotivated students from a low level Charedi Yeshiva.
Of course, this is all dishonesty. You've invented the distinction after your earlier distinction of " because they're willing to give in without a fight." was refuted.
" But I also think that the values taught in yeshivos are found nowhere else and if anything we need more not less of that. "
So now, you invented another distinction. It's not about Torah study per se, but about values. So someone learning full time should be drafted if they're not in a Yeshiva that teaches such values? What about a student who does learn in such a Yeshiva but skips the mussar shmooze because he's focusing on ש"ס and פוסקים? Should he be drafted?
Of course I agree with you here, as I said many times! I don't think there should be a petur just be virtue of being part of a group. I think the only people who should get this petur are those truly serious about their learning and life devoted to such. And the hesder student who is ready to devote his life to Torah should be patur. But he won't be because he is in a hesder yeshiva on purpose, because he feels that serving the army is the same as his torah, which is a separate discussion.
Please clarify where we are actually arguing. We both think torah is the most important thing bar none, yes? We both agree that there is a problem with the implementation of the petur which allows people who aren't learning properly to still be patur. We probably disagree on how to fix this situation because you think (at least in theory) that major actions should be taken against the yeshiva system and I think we can only even try to change some small things (such as testing or allowing them to do service at an older age if by then they're not learning quite as well).
Which to me, doesn't this ultimately boil down to one of two things? - 1. either how important torah is, or 2. how many Chareidim are actually learning as they should. I probably have a more positive view of what happens in a BM than you. But if this is the case, I agree that, if my numbers are off, that is an even bigger problem. And btw, the solution should be to mechazek Torah tremendously!
"....the values taught in yeshivos are found nowhere else and if anything we need more not less of that." Excluding themselves from the general community including the religious community that are not Chareidi including when dealing with פיקוח נפש and this even when this protects them too, is not a value to admire even if it's for learning.
What about criminal fines for not complying with the law demanding enlistment including interest.The fines will grow including interest. Non payment next stop הוצאה לפועל, collection. With this you won't get a mortgage. Or liens on your property. When the sums become astronomical,and they will, you could lose your apt.. So much for lack of compromise.
Again, this is your perceived narrative of the Chareidim. With that obtuse attitude, we'll never listen to you because you're just coughing up the same dribble again and again. We get it. You think we're selfish. Keep yelling and we'll keep hearing that you think we're selfish. Yell louder and we'll hear you even louder that you think we're selfish.
What's wrong with anti-Haredi incitement, as long as it explicitly isn't incitement to violence? Like a call to vote only for a party that refuses to be in a coalition with a Haredi party is non-violent incitement. That's totally legitimate.
The word "incitement" is a bad one. Incitement to murder or violence or crime, i.e. trying to get other people to do those bad things, is a legitimate concept. But the way people say "incitement" in Israel now, they just mean "criticism".
NOt at all. It means exactly what it says. That Palestine shall be free of Zionist dominion. There is no call to violence if the Jews surrender peacefully and return the land they stole. This is Zionist propaganda to call it incitement to violence.
I will first state that I am neither jewish nor arab nor do I in particular want to chose a side with regard to the current conflict, only to comment on a very interesting question that is posed by the author. This question as I see it (I am open to being corrected) is should those who have dedicated themselves wholly to study of the torah, also share the responsibility for the defense of the only jewish state in existance which subsidises said study. I must also say that I have no real idea on the Haredi or charedim and the exacts specifics of what makes them such, however I do assume that to take on this identity requires alot of sacrifice. I am assuming that this dedication to the torah is above that of say an engineering student who somewhat dedicates himself to the study of engineering but does not, and is not required to remove himself from 'worldly' things which I assume ( rightly or wrongly I honestly dont know) the charedim must. Also the engineering student's dedication to engineering is supposed to directly benefit himself materially e.g. well paid and highly respected work, whereas I am assuming that he who dedicates himself to study of the torah forgoes such material benefits for the most part.
Now it may already be apparent that as part of my argument I am assuming IDF service to be somewhat 'worldly' as the engineering student would without question be required to serve.
The point I am trying to make at a minimum is that it is unfair for the charedim to be called to 'share' the burden of IDF sevice, as a lifetime of aesetic dedication to the torah is not a burden most israeli's are willing to share (another assumption).
Before Oct7 up until the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, were there many legal arguments around the haredi being able to attend nightclubs and get blackout drunk?? I mean an argument that they should be able to do this and to retain their identity as charedim with (assumption time again) the moral superiority that comes with the role of religious aesetic?? The engineering student of course would have no questions about his identity nor have to justify anything nor would it be a national question were he to buy himself a few drinks.
Can the chardim be LGBTQ+?? Holiday in the maldives?? Be CEO of intel?? Have there been any charedim prime ministers?? What is the level of interaction in Israeli political life?? Do they have time to study the torah and take on a full politcal portfolio?? ( all questions I genuinely do not know the answer to, although as you can guess by now I have my assumptions).
As I said those are the minimum arguments I have against haredi conscription i.e. 'its not fair' an argument any of us humans on earth have had since learning to speak.
So then to higher moral questions.
Is it not true that the Haredi have already sacrificed their lives in the name of Israel/Judaism?? Voluntarily no less. I would posit (somewhat controversially and maybe unecessarily but there you go) that this is a greater sacrifice than any conscript could possiibly achieve. I do wonder if this question were left only to those who volunteered IDF for service before Oct7 would they require the charedim to be forced into service while knowing the value of making a personal decision to dedicate your life for the benefit of other jews.
If I as a non jew were to come to Israel and ask aloud the question 'what does it mean to be a jew?' would you prefer I was aswered by the engineering student or the student of the torah?? I ask this because in my opinion there is a separation between, on the one hand the duty to fight, and on the other hand that which is to be fought for. What is Israel?? What is the IDF fighting for and more importantly should that which is being fought for be forced to fight?? Because fighting is hard for those who fight?? Isn't that self defeating (for those who are fought for/that which is fought for to fight)?? Are there charedim who should be conscripted ahead of netanyahu's son?? How many?? To what is he dedicated?? To whom?? Israel?? Judaism?? God?? As to the title of the article what is the true deflection?? In my opinion sending the charedim to war is somewhat like the image of the ourabourous, almost like judaism eating itself to save itself. Makes no sense.
For want of a better metaphor I refer to my favorite sport, football (soccer) although the rules are different now. It used to be that if the ball was kicked and it hit the referee play would continue, in the same way that if the ball were kicked and it hit a goal post and bounced back into onto the field play would continue. The reason for this is that the referee was considered a part of the LANDSCAPE of the football pitch like the lines marking the edges of the pitch or the goalposts. In the same way I am of the opinion that if a man decides to dedicate his entire life to judaism then he becomes a part of the landscape of Israel. That which is fought for. Like Women and children ( I kno Israel prides itself on females being part of the armed forces but no legitmate nation does this past a certain point and it is therefore irrelavant or this conversation wouldn't be happening just more women would be pushed to the front).
The most difficult question is this, if you are at the point where these people are required to fight is this a war you can win?? In my opinion the conscription of these people ( Women, Children, Charedim) is as good an indication as any that you have already lost.
Moshe M, thanks for that link. Rav Adlerstein writes both convincingly of the need for Charedi young men to serve their country in the IDF and movingly of the effort to supply chayalim with tefillin. It’s good to know that Rabbi Doctor Slifkin is not a lone voice crying in the wilderness.
66,000 people cannot be forcefully drafted. Satire and incitement won't accomplish it. Only wisdom and good will can do it. This defies a solution at present. To form a government a compromise with charedim will be reached. Slifkin as usual spews out hatred and incitement, which only makes finding an accomodation more difficult.
Agreed. But does that make it your responsibility (or Rabbi doctor's) to be the instigator to reduce the funding? Shouldn't frum Yidden want to be the ones promoting learning?
I think that there should be found a way to enable charedim to serve, as I have said in the past. It cannot be done by force, only by mutual accomodation. This can only happen when charei reluctance to serve is validated and they are not besmerched as cowards and parasites. There are weak lonely voices of reason, but they are drowned by the cacaphony of Slifkin, Liberman, Lapid etc.
". This can only happen when charei reluctance to serve is validated and they are not besmerched as cowards and parasites. "
Do you believe that if the gov't and pundits are silent on these issues that the Charedi world will enlist and start working in greater numbers? That the most effective engine of change is to shut up and do nothing that would actively encourage or enforce change?
Now there is a way. The govt. is setting up Chareidi yeshivot in the Jordan valley where they learn full time except for guard duty at the border where they are stationed.
I loved this video. Has the same vibe as the tons of anti-Zionist videos on Twitter now X which show the cruel and heartless side of the occupiers past their crocodile tears. Both the ultra orthodox dressed person and the occupier army uniforms with their crocodile tears look like typical Zionists! Where's the tears for all the women and kids of Gaza? Who is knocking on their doors? They don't have doors anymore thanks to you.
Haha I like how cynical you Zionists are. "Stop resisting and let us rape you and your land and then we will stop killing your kids. you say. كلب صهيوني قذر
Idk Arabic but you're welcome to translate. I happen not to be a Zionist at all and I think Israel has done a whole lot of stupid stuff. But enjoy your narrative.
Go live in Gaza. We didn't start the war. The surveys say 80 per cent of the Gazans support Hamas. Blame the Hamas for using Gazans as human shields, a crime against humanity.
Brits don’t have “a very developed sense of humor”? Ever hear of “The Goon Show,” “Monty Python's Flying Circus,” or “That Was the Week that Was” to name a few obvious counter examples? Sheesh. Next you’ll be claiming there are no beautiful movie stars from France and Italy!
What a tasteless post. Accusing others of deflection when that's just about all you do!
Not once have you ever addressed the importance of torah and how literally nothing even comes remotely close to its toes in what matters in life. But opinions borne from utter ignorance, with the confidence of someone who knows what they're talking about, you have no problem sharing.
" Accusing others of deflection when that's just about all you do!"
What deflection are you referring to?
"Not once have you ever addressed the importance of torah and how literally nothing even comes remotely close to its toes in what matters in life. "
Part of RNS's point was that the Charedi political leadership has demanded that those who are learning Torah in non-Charedi frameworks should be taken away from their learning. Having just declared the " the importance of torah and how literally nothing even comes remotely close to its toes in what matters in life", do you agree with UTJ policy of drafting these students of Torah?
I'm referring to the deflection of pretending to be talking about one thing (fixing the world, making EY a better place, caring about the safety of klal yisroel) whole really talking about another thing entirely, wrapped nearly with this political wrapping paper; the craziness of the Chareidim following their mesorah. But never addressing their mesorah directly, only assuming that they're not even sincere and that their actual beliefs are completely illegitimate.
And once again, if we were to sit down and discuss the issue of Chareidim not joining the army, we might even find plenty of common ground, but to have this discussion time and time again without appreciating where the Chareidim are even coming from while pretending that you're trying to help - but really just wanting to tear down the already stupid mindless system - is a very different discussion to have. So let's stop pretending this is about something else.
Let's clear something up: When RNS writes about some contentious topic, he is writing about that contentious topic. Here, he's writing about the draft, and I don't agree with you that's he really writing "about another thing entirely". That's your interpretation. But by imposing your interpretation, you conveniently change the topic. That's deflection, isn't it?
No, I said in a different comment, there's a way to approach this topic as a friend who believes in the Chareidi cause, and a way to approach it as an enemy who wants to "tear down the system" anyway. If someone appreciates torah like the chareidim do, he says, "Listen up guys, we gotta figure out how to continue our mission but still be able to adapt to the situation." What rabbi doctor does is call or whole mission stupid and insincere and cruel. That's just furthering the divide, nothing else.
It could be we need people like him to create a scare that the government will stop funding and in order not to have a riot, the Chareidi leaders meet with the officials who are anti and stay making some sort of test and be mechazek everyone to start learning much much better (similar to chizkiyahu's yodaker b'cherev) and instead create better quality learning and teshuva. But our people shouldn't be on the won't side of history. I'm pretty sure Haman and the malshhinim on mordechai don't get any schar despite their noble outcomes.
"be mechazek everyone to start learning much much better "
More deflection. You still haven't addressed RNS's points - Why has UTJ demanded the draft of Yeshiva students, so long as they are not from the Charedi community?
That was not his point in this post. You brought that up. And I responded below in one of the other dozen places you mentioned it.
Are you daft! RDNS has been
discussing all your comments
ad infinitum forever. Study up on the past logs!
Really?? Name one time he mentioned that "torah is the most important thing in the world bar none, but..."
He doesn't have to use your terminology. He has discussed the importance off limud Torah vs. work,vs Chesed, vs public responsibility to serve in the Army,vs continuous financial support by the govt.. Torah is important.The whole Torah not just sitting in the Beit HaMedrash which you consider the ultimate and reason for living.
Remember לשמור לעשות.
Exactly my point! A ton of "torah vs..." but never how torah is in its own league. Which means we aren't even in the same wavelength. We are discussing completely separate value systems. But you wonder why we will never come to an agreement...
Yes, there are other things besides torah and whoever thinks torah is all there is, אפילו תורה אין בו, but at the same time all these other things can't diminish the value of torah which is beyond even a mitzvah, and not learning torah when you can is worse than any aveira. And don't forget, to a chareidi, the worth of a mitzvah is simply inexplicable in human terms, and an aveira c'v isn't just spilling soup. The values are constantly laughed at in the world outside of the BM. But we should compromise on those few places where we actually can teach and espouse these truths? תורה לאמיתתה מה תהא עליה??? That is not 'my terminology;' this is the Chareidi value system.
Appeal to emotion fallacy. Related to appeal to guilt fallacy.
This occurs when someone tries to win an argument by evoking emotion, without using facts or logic. Arguments that appeal to our emotions often attempt to influence our viewpoints in a manipulative way.
In other words, what you are saying is manipulative (charlatanism) and not a logical argument.
Just saying.
Actually, a major portion of the campaign to draft Yeshiva Bachurim has for years been relying upon evoking emotion. "My son needs to serve in the Army, why not yours?". "Our children are dying, why are there no funerals in Bnei Brak?". "We can't sleep at night, but Haredi mothers do just fine". Face it - the Haredim have a well-thought out and considered position, like it or not. They will not be moved by emotional arguments to harm the Yeshiva educational sysytem, which they view as central to Jewish life, and critically necessary for the future of Judaism.
Exactly. The entire sharing the burden discourse is exclusively about emotion. Nothing rational or logical in the slightest. That doesn't mean we should repudiate their emotions. But we should realize that this is what it is all about.
You don't get it! Time to hit you in the gut,so to speak. Only someone else's child husband should ,G-d forbid die or get injured!
Arguments from emotion, I'm sorry to say, obfuscate the topic at hand. If you wanna not listen to our side and instead keep yelling at us about how selfish we are, go ahead. But don't expect us to listen.
So, the view of the chilonim is that charedim and chilonim are the same (for the purposes of this question of joining the IDF in order to fight and protect the nation.)
I think the chilonim are correct in this assertion. The two groups are the same.
First, Judaism does not embrace pacifism, and the charedim are not religious pacifists.
The chilonim are the same on this point.
Neither group has as principled/religious reason to not fight.
Second, is what the charedim do in life, actually “special?”
Well, it is special – to them. What they do is special – in their own minds.
The chilonim are the same, on this point, too.
Their lives are special – to them (and their parents.) What they do is special – in their own minds (and their parents.)
So, again, the two groups come up the same, but with different treatment as far as fighting and sacrificing to protect the nation.
The charedim want to justify a double standard. But they can’t, as there is no basis for it.
The chilonim are on firm ground when they object to the double standard for these two groups.
one more point: it's not a mature, adult, move to call yourself "special" and therefore exempt from an obligation.
the reason it works in israel is due to politics. for political reasons, the govt needs the voting bloc, and gives the charedim special privileges.
obviously, there are chilonim (i don't know what proportion of the citizenry) who object to this.
the charedim calling themselves, or their sons "special," is not a logical argument.
everyone can call themselves "special!"
I am "special," i should get the last seat on the lifeboat!
wait, I am more "special!", I should get it!
now, if they both agree that only one of them is special, now you're talking...
otherwise, narcissism of a kind. childish reasoning.
why do small children feel ok taking another kid's toy? why do they equally feel ok not putting it away when they're done?
"if i like it, it's mine. If it's time to clean up, it's yours..."
we put up with that in children. we hope they grow up.
Sorry, Barry. traditional Judaism - to which Haredim claim adhrerence -, views creation, life, meaning, purpose, values, priorities, the nature of nations and the purpose of human existence differently than secular society. While some Modern Orthodox Jews share our perspective, a significant portion are closer to secular Israelis than to the positions we espouse. No compromise or understanding will ever be reached between Haredim and those who have no respect for our values, or with those who hope to harm our educational systems. Rabbi Dr. Slifkin's positions are not worthy of serious contemplation or response, as he, poor man, has spent a good portion of his life merely trying to publicly shame and embarrass Haredim, Gedolei Torah, Roshei Yeshivos and Yeshiva students, whatever today's cause may be.
Haredim are not pacifists by religion. They don't object to war, or killing.
Their values are safe, with respect to war fighting.
If they worry about an education system? Figure it out. Keep the system.
If they worry about some values being lost? Again, figure it out. Keep the values.
i don't recall them fearing financial dependence on secular society would erode their work ethic (isn't a man supposed to work according to traditional values? Fathers to teach sons a trade? I think the ketubah mentions it, too?)
They somehow made that difficult sacrifice, took the secular cash.
They just don't want to serve, if they don't have to. So they trade votes for not having to do something they don't want to do. Values are not involved.
These are political questions and wants. That's the lens to see it through.
"to which Haredim claim adhrerence -, views creation, life, meaning, purpose, values, priorities, the nature of nations and the purpose of human existence differently than secular society. "
Doesn't look that way browsing the ads in the Hemieshe Press - Mishpach, Ami Hamodia etc. There is more gashmiyous advertised in those than in a non Jewish newspaper. There was one I saw for a 'scent specalist' for your home!
How does ""to which Haredim claim adhrerence -, views creation, life, meaning, purpose, values, priorities, the nature of nations and the purpose of human existence differently than secular society. " fit in with Gur on Gur violence, mateh akum, long luxury sheitels, minyan factories, sushi resteraunts and all that stuff?
Which luxury hotel are you going to for Pesach? Seen the queus outside pizza places motzai pesach?
The values you claim chareidim have do not manifest themeselves particularly well, once you look deeper.
Cut the funding!
So what! There is a new reality in town. Get with it.
Boo Hoo. Cut the funding tool will change the reality!
Not if the other person agrees to your premises.
Otherwise, what a weird comment.
agreeing does not make it a logically sound argument. agreeing is due to bad arguments that sound good, but are not. happens all the time, PARTICULARLY in mass movements. Also, in pyramid schemes. sometimes in bad marriages, too.
You don't get what I'm saying. If rabbi doctor and I share a certain premise and I call him out for ignoring said premise and jumping to outgrowths of this more crucial point that ignore the root of it all, when addressing it would actually change the focus of the conversation, there is absolutely nothing fallacious about that.
"there is absolutely nothing fallacious about that. "
Absolutely nothing? Not even a little? Certainly, changing the topic on the excuse of focusing on "the root" can be fallacious, because it's not necessarily so that what you declare the "root of it all" is in fact relevant to the topic.
Once again, when trying to effect change, one needs to see the bigger picture. Otherwise he's just a whiner. It is very relevant. We, the frum Jews who believe in the torah, should be on the side of promoting not torah learning, not withholding it! And if there's a problem (there is), let's talk about it within that context!
maybe a non sequitur fallacy...
If a wife tells her husband she loves him, and he tells her he loves her, and then she says "if you love me, you would never leave me alone to go bowling with your buddies!"
The second part does not logically follow from the first part.
You may both think Torah is a huge value. What that means to each of you is up for debate.
The use of bad logic that sounds good is an intent to manipulate (or guilt) the other party. It's inherently manipulative. Beneath you... but common to ALL mass movements, including religions.
First of all, first rule of debate: don't throw around debate words. It's super annoying.
Second, apparently you are not understanding my point at all. If we are on the same page that Torah is super important, this whole conversation takes on a different vibe. We would all be trying our hardest to maximize Torah learning while focusing on the issue as an important kink that needs a fixin'. Rabbi doctor is not doing that at all. He wants to tear down the stupid system entirely. These are two very different ways of addressing the issue, and his way will get nowhere with Chareidim.
"It's frustrating that no matter how much pain and harm the charedi community causes to the rest of Israel, they so often refuse to acknowledge criticism as an expression of that pain and as stemming from a genuine need to create change. Instead, it's always branded as "anti-religious incitement." This is a deflection which enables the charedi community to flip the narrative, paint themselves as victims, and avoid actually dealing with the criticism."
Instead of getting "frustrated" about a "deflection", how about.....actually stopping the anti-religious incitement? Everything on your website, including your descriptions of chareidim's emunah as "stupid religious beliefs" falls into the category of anti-religious incitement. Accept that chareidim have different religious beliefs than you. That's not changing. Try to work within that. Otherwise you are getting nowhere fast, except satisfying your own hatred.
Why would he stop the incitement? He lives off it
Thank you for your comments about this egregiously unfair, and unjust situation. It has been allowed for far too long and always for political expediency. Now we are involved in an existential crisis in which the Charedi participation in the defense of our country and their help in those sectors, e.g. agricultural, require their help so that we can defeat our enemy and maintain our economy. The rabbis, to whom they listen, have to tell these yeshiva boys and young men studying full-time to get out there and join their brethren for the sake of our country. Please continue to keep this issue in the forefront of our attention.
What a thought provoking post, as always. On such an original topic! I've been reading this blog for quite some time, but this is the first I've heard of all these issues. What an eye opener. Kudos!
One question for you, Rabbi Slifkin. What's your position on Chareidim in the army? Have you ever studied that topic? Either way, thanks for your posts. Keep em coming. Maybe write an article about chareidim serving in the army, don't think you've discussed that yet. And don't forget to throw in something about Chareidim serving in the army, as well.
Love ya Doc!
"Personally, I think that if one considers satire to be a legitimate tool of social commentary - which I think most people do, and even charedi newspapers have political cartoons - then I don’t see why charedim should be immune. "
And some people don't see why Slifkin should be immune!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-donkey-of-chelm
Hey Slifkin, why do you call the belief that Torah protects "a stupid religious belief"? Link below. Do you think this type of rhetoric will convince chareidim to abandon their stupid religion and join?
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Feb79710b-9c00-422a-a6f1-274ac8b6170e_580x522.png
Because it is a stupid belief. And you're making the same mistake that I discussed in the post. I'm not talking about "Torah" - I'm talking about the Torah of charedim aged 18-24 who ought to be in the army.
Oh wise rabbi doctor, a stupid belief you say, is it now? Are you aware of the sources that promote torah, especially that of full time learners, to the ultimate, supreme, maximum possible levels? Are you aware of the sources that tell us that torah is more important than even cheftzei shamayim? And that comes along with an understanding that cheftzei shamayim have values beyond anything this frivolous world has to offer! You, in your rationality, decided that these ideals are for only for idealistic teenagers and can't be real to anyone who understands "how this world works," but o my, what if the good rabbi doctor is mistaken?? What if these idealistic ideas are what all the mussar seforim are telling us and you thinking otherwise is nothing but a clear indication that you are spending too much time reading other (false) ideologies? And getting yourself worked up about it too a level of hatred towards those who do have their priorities straight!
(And I'll say again that this does not in any way condone the chareidim not joining the army at all. Only that if you actually want to move the conversation forward, you can't ignore their ideology. Which happens to be a valid form is Judaism, to say the least...)
Yes, I am aware of all the sources, thanks.
Just you just think they're stupid?
I don't think those sources are stupid at all. I think applying them to charedim avoiding the army is stupid.
Not sure we're taking about the same sources. I mean like Sefer Chareidim, orchos tzaddikim, shaarei teshuva, derech eitz Chaim, tomer devora, shaarei kedusha, mesilas yesharim etc.
It sure doesn't sound like that, Slifkin! You literally called the belief that Torah protects "a stupid religious belief", which by the way, is consistent with your rationalism, and then expect us to think you only magically mean " the Torah of charedim aged 18-24" but everybody else's Torah protects? I've got a bridge to sell you in Siberia.
If your so confident that torah protects, than surely chareidim wont mind if a law comes out that they must move to border communities in exchange for not joining the army.
Do you also think that the protection of Torah is a stupid religious belief? Why? Do you believe in God? Do you believe He protects you and your family? If the answer is yes, then you ought not think it is a stupid belief at all.
"Do you also think that the protection of Torah is a stupid religious belief? "
Does UTJ "believe that the protection of Torah is stupid religious belief" when they demanded the drafting of מכינה and הסדר Torah students?
Gee, what if every young Israeli decided to study 'Torah' full time? Who would run and defend the state and its residents. Leave it to God. We don't need scientists, soldiers or politicians. We need more Bandana.
What's with the quotes around Torah?
If we did that it would be a Chizkiyahu-Sancheirev repeat!
You've ignored the essential question and focused on the typographical styling!
Please elucidate.
Yeah, the idea that Torah protects is a real stupid religious belief, right? Keep on saying it, you will surely convince chareidim to abandon their stupid religious beliefs!
Can you actually present a logical argument in coherent terms. Your emotional beliefs may (or may not) be admirable but are not relevant. Catch phrases are cute but not convincing. Are these 'learning' charedim prepared to forego IDF protection and the withholding of welfare payments.
Please come to grips with reality.
Thank you Rabbi Slifkin for the youtube link. There's a beautiful and popular comment on it as follows, which really gets to the heart of the matter:
מעניין שבמקביל להתגברות השנאה כלפי החרדים בארץ ישנה התגברות של שנאה כלפי ישראל בכל העולם.
And there's a greater hatred in Israel to Hamas. So what does that prove?
I agree Rabbi Slifkin, from a rationalist perspective it doesn't prove anything. I just found it beautiful and interesting. Hatred is an inherent part of who we are as human beings, and while too much hatred could be harmful, we should to some degree embrace our nature.
Uh, you don't get the point of that comment, do you? There's nothing "beautiful" or "natural" about hatred. It's just people like you, Slifkin, and anti-Semites who pretend to be just anti-Zionists who look for excuses for hatred. That's the point.
Thank you for your response. There is no need to be rude. I didn't mean hatred is beautiful, I meant that this is a beautiful idea, because Maimonides stated that the ultimate beauty is truth, and I found that this idea resounded as truth for me. Hatred between groups is natural. Do you deny this? This is especially true for hareidim in a non-hareidi society, or Jews in a predominantly non-Jewish world, very distinct groups. Hatred is a very natural response when one population encounters another one that is very different from it, especially if one can pin it on some reason, like sharing the burden, "occupation", "genocide", disproportional control of institutions, etc. That is the actual point of the comment. I mean that instead of fighting nature, there should be a healthy outlet for hatred, which is speech, rather than violence. This is the wisdom of the Founding Fathers who foresaw the need for free speech.
This is ridiculous. The comment was very clear in what the point was. Nothing "beautiful" or "natural" about hatred. Everybody looks for excuses to hate people who are very different than them. Antisemites have plenty of excuses. Antichareidim have plenty of excuses. But at the end of the day, it is just excuses to engage for people to engage in their worst impulses, guilt-free.
Troll
What the heck? So we should hate each other but not let it turn into violence and that is beautiful?
The one point that I disagree with the entire attitude is that someone who is in the service of the army and who is sacrificing for the greatest good, can be upset at someone else who doesn't give the same sacrifice. It is the bystanders like R Slifkin, who are not actually serving who have an issue, not the actual service men. To actually want someone else to shoulder the burden diminishes their sacrifice immensely. A fireman or policeman does not begrudge a bystander because they don't help them. They do their job heroically because it is the right thing to do and they do it altruistically. The entire concept of shavei benetal is laughable. Being upset because someone from a different camp from yours didn't have a levaya to go to. That is so childish behavior. If you really believe that every bullet has an address then who is to say a charedi serving will get the bullet instead of a dati luemi person as if you can make a calculation like that. Those that believe that service in klal yisrael means joining the army and fighting to protect the Jewish people should not be looking over their shoulder at those who don't serve because if they really care about how much the other person is putting in then their service value is diminished. The value becomes quid pro quo rather than actual service of conviction. If a charedi person has an honest conviction that his service is to learn Torah for the Jewish nation then he should be allowed to choose that and others who feel that fighting protection is more valuable should take up that service alltruistically.
I strongly disagree both factually and logically.
How many people do you know personally who recently spent >100 days in miluim? Have you asked them how they feel?
I'll explain what's wrong with your "logic" after Shabbat. It's not just about the calculations of death. Please educate yourself about how much time Israelis will have to serve going forward, and how that will affect every aspect of their lives. We can continue after shabbat.
Shabbat Shalom
I have seen the numbers on how much extra time people will have to serve and the extra hardship, and there is no denying the self sacrifice of those that serve and their families. My point is those that actually serve and their families need to frame their perspective that it is a heroic act for all of the Jewish people regardless of what other jews are doing and where they live in the world It is greater than someone who is learning without sacrifice no doubt about it. By demanding equality from everyone equally it diminishes the heroic act since it becomes evident that there are forces out of control involved instead of intent to actually be heroic. Should Israelis begrudge those in the diaspora since they are not physically involved? It brings to mind the story of two old men with numbers on their arm fighting in the mikvah and coming to blows. After asking what happened to cause them to fight, one of them said the other man claimed to be in Auschwitz for 4 months when he knew he was really there for only 3 months and he was there for 4 months so he knew the truth. It is sad when one jew cannot fargin another jew one month in Auschwitz .
Those who serve aren't looking for "hero points", they do it so that all of us will survive.
Asking for others to also carry the burden seem to be asking for "hero points" to me.
Huh?
Obviously the soldiers feel a sense of responsibility, and believe that they are doing something that is larger and more important than any individual.
But they don't want any sort of standing as heroes; what they would like is some additional manpower
A soldier is automatically thrust into a hero position and those who are hero material rise to the top. They don't choose it. The additional manpower should grow organically from in the charedi community, not one that is for fostered upon them. When the IDF enterprise acts in a way that is accommodating to their religious sensibilities then those suited to the position will volunteer organically since that is what their purpose in life is. A soldier who is being forced to conscript is a mercenary and is a horrible soldier and will not be successful.
" If a charedi person has an honest conviction that his service is to learn Torah for the Jewish nation then he should be allowed to choose that and others who feel that fighting protection is more valuable should take up that service alltruistically. "
But UTJ is demanding that certain Yeshivah students stop learning and join the army.
Ridiculous. We all live here in Israel and everyone should carry the burden.l
You're very into that argument. that's because they're willing to give in without a fight. Part of their value system is that there are things equal to the importance of torah. They can fight as much as we would if they want.
" that's because they're willing to give in without a fight."
So are you saying that Yeshiva should only be drafted if they don't protest? Why then is UTJ demanding that those Torah students should be drafterd instead of demanding that those Yeshiva students should protest against the draft?
"They can fight as much as we would if they want."
I asked you about UTJ's demands that Yeshiva students be drafted. You deflected and changed the topic to whether such students should protest. Stay on topic and answer: Do you agree with UTJ that these Yeshiva students should be drafted?
If they will learn with the same chashivus of what they do as a chareidi has, sure they shouldn't be drafted!
Now, can you concede a bit as well, that torah is more important than anything in the world bar none? (Not chalila at the expense and to the exclusion of other things, but that it is way higher on the totem pole of values)
Let's try to find common ground here. I 100% agree that just by virtue of being a chareidi shouldn't a person be exempt. But I also think that the values taught in yeshivos are found nowhere else and if anything we need more not less of that.
"If they will learn with the same chashivus of what they do as a chareidi has, sure they shouldn't be drafted! "
And where is you source for this distinction of yours? We've been told that not a single Torah student may be drafted- no matter whether he be of the rare elite or the common masses. Now, you claim that there are Torah students who can be drafted. Oddly, you hold that the students from an elite Hesder Yeshiva should be drafted, but none of the weaker and unmotivated students from a low level Charedi Yeshiva.
Of course, this is all dishonesty. You've invented the distinction after your earlier distinction of " because they're willing to give in without a fight." was refuted.
" But I also think that the values taught in yeshivos are found nowhere else and if anything we need more not less of that. "
So now, you invented another distinction. It's not about Torah study per se, but about values. So someone learning full time should be drafted if they're not in a Yeshiva that teaches such values? What about a student who does learn in such a Yeshiva but skips the mussar shmooze because he's focusing on ש"ס and פוסקים? Should he be drafted?
Of course I agree with you here, as I said many times! I don't think there should be a petur just be virtue of being part of a group. I think the only people who should get this petur are those truly serious about their learning and life devoted to such. And the hesder student who is ready to devote his life to Torah should be patur. But he won't be because he is in a hesder yeshiva on purpose, because he feels that serving the army is the same as his torah, which is a separate discussion.
Please clarify where we are actually arguing. We both think torah is the most important thing bar none, yes? We both agree that there is a problem with the implementation of the petur which allows people who aren't learning properly to still be patur. We probably disagree on how to fix this situation because you think (at least in theory) that major actions should be taken against the yeshiva system and I think we can only even try to change some small things (such as testing or allowing them to do service at an older age if by then they're not learning quite as well).
Which to me, doesn't this ultimately boil down to one of two things? - 1. either how important torah is, or 2. how many Chareidim are actually learning as they should. I probably have a more positive view of what happens in a BM than you. But if this is the case, I agree that, if my numbers are off, that is an even bigger problem. And btw, the solution should be to mechazek Torah tremendously!
Great values like you get killed l'm staying safe. No community responsibility. It's called exploitation.
Are you in the IDF right now? Just curious.
Are you in Gaza? On the front lines?
"....the values taught in yeshivos are found nowhere else and if anything we need more not less of that." Excluding themselves from the general community including the religious community that are not Chareidi including when dealing with פיקוח נפש and this even when this protects them too, is not a value to admire even if it's for learning.
How is that a response to anything I said? Are you listening? Or are you just continuing to call us selfish again packaged in new words?
What about criminal fines for not complying with the law demanding enlistment including interest.The fines will grow including interest. Non payment next stop הוצאה לפועל, collection. With this you won't get a mortgage. Or liens on your property. When the sums become astronomical,and they will, you could lose your apt.. So much for lack of compromise.
You wanna play that game? Just remember, you guys constantly complain about our growing numbers. Gl getting laws like this passed with that in mind.
Also focusing on those kinds of issues will reduce focus on the war effort, as headache no smart politician will embrace right now.
The laws are already here. Refusing to serve is a crime. Punishment for crimes include fines
How about 100 shekel for every day not served.
No problem we will help you learn what פיקוח נפש is and communal responsibility. No to exploit others even for a noble goal.
Again, this is your perceived narrative of the Chareidim. With that obtuse attitude, we'll never listen to you because you're just coughing up the same dribble again and again. We get it. You think we're selfish. Keep yelling and we'll keep hearing that you think we're selfish. Yell louder and we'll hear you even louder that you think we're selfish.
The appeal to emotion (pathos) will win logic (logos) in a debate every time. This a political pundit's playground.
What's wrong with anti-Haredi incitement, as long as it explicitly isn't incitement to violence? Like a call to vote only for a party that refuses to be in a coalition with a Haredi party is non-violent incitement. That's totally legitimate.
The word "incitement" is a bad one. Incitement to murder or violence or crime, i.e. trying to get other people to do those bad things, is a legitimate concept. But the way people say "incitement" in Israel now, they just mean "criticism".
"Criticism" is too dispassionate. Incitement provokes emotions, like resentment.
And what's wrong with anti-Zionist incitement as long as it explicitly isn't incitement to violence? By the way, almost all Jews are Zionists.
Nothing, but I hope you agree that "Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea" is explicit incitement to violence.
NOt at all. It means exactly what it says. That Palestine shall be free of Zionist dominion. There is no call to violence if the Jews surrender peacefully and return the land they stole. This is Zionist propaganda to call it incitement to violence.
I can't trust you on that. This is an Arabic phrase I learned yesterday: الكذب على الاعداء حلال
" That Palestine shall be free of Zionist dominion. "
No, it mean that Arabs should oppress, kill, rob and rape other Arabs. Like Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq.....
I reject your definition of "Free".
Again, enjoy your narrative.
كاره اليهود
Wash, rinse, repeat.
I will first state that I am neither jewish nor arab nor do I in particular want to chose a side with regard to the current conflict, only to comment on a very interesting question that is posed by the author. This question as I see it (I am open to being corrected) is should those who have dedicated themselves wholly to study of the torah, also share the responsibility for the defense of the only jewish state in existance which subsidises said study. I must also say that I have no real idea on the Haredi or charedim and the exacts specifics of what makes them such, however I do assume that to take on this identity requires alot of sacrifice. I am assuming that this dedication to the torah is above that of say an engineering student who somewhat dedicates himself to the study of engineering but does not, and is not required to remove himself from 'worldly' things which I assume ( rightly or wrongly I honestly dont know) the charedim must. Also the engineering student's dedication to engineering is supposed to directly benefit himself materially e.g. well paid and highly respected work, whereas I am assuming that he who dedicates himself to study of the torah forgoes such material benefits for the most part.
Now it may already be apparent that as part of my argument I am assuming IDF service to be somewhat 'worldly' as the engineering student would without question be required to serve.
The point I am trying to make at a minimum is that it is unfair for the charedim to be called to 'share' the burden of IDF sevice, as a lifetime of aesetic dedication to the torah is not a burden most israeli's are willing to share (another assumption).
Before Oct7 up until the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, were there many legal arguments around the haredi being able to attend nightclubs and get blackout drunk?? I mean an argument that they should be able to do this and to retain their identity as charedim with (assumption time again) the moral superiority that comes with the role of religious aesetic?? The engineering student of course would have no questions about his identity nor have to justify anything nor would it be a national question were he to buy himself a few drinks.
Can the chardim be LGBTQ+?? Holiday in the maldives?? Be CEO of intel?? Have there been any charedim prime ministers?? What is the level of interaction in Israeli political life?? Do they have time to study the torah and take on a full politcal portfolio?? ( all questions I genuinely do not know the answer to, although as you can guess by now I have my assumptions).
As I said those are the minimum arguments I have against haredi conscription i.e. 'its not fair' an argument any of us humans on earth have had since learning to speak.
So then to higher moral questions.
Is it not true that the Haredi have already sacrificed their lives in the name of Israel/Judaism?? Voluntarily no less. I would posit (somewhat controversially and maybe unecessarily but there you go) that this is a greater sacrifice than any conscript could possiibly achieve. I do wonder if this question were left only to those who volunteered IDF for service before Oct7 would they require the charedim to be forced into service while knowing the value of making a personal decision to dedicate your life for the benefit of other jews.
If I as a non jew were to come to Israel and ask aloud the question 'what does it mean to be a jew?' would you prefer I was aswered by the engineering student or the student of the torah?? I ask this because in my opinion there is a separation between, on the one hand the duty to fight, and on the other hand that which is to be fought for. What is Israel?? What is the IDF fighting for and more importantly should that which is being fought for be forced to fight?? Because fighting is hard for those who fight?? Isn't that self defeating (for those who are fought for/that which is fought for to fight)?? Are there charedim who should be conscripted ahead of netanyahu's son?? How many?? To what is he dedicated?? To whom?? Israel?? Judaism?? God?? As to the title of the article what is the true deflection?? In my opinion sending the charedim to war is somewhat like the image of the ourabourous, almost like judaism eating itself to save itself. Makes no sense.
For want of a better metaphor I refer to my favorite sport, football (soccer) although the rules are different now. It used to be that if the ball was kicked and it hit the referee play would continue, in the same way that if the ball were kicked and it hit a goal post and bounced back into onto the field play would continue. The reason for this is that the referee was considered a part of the LANDSCAPE of the football pitch like the lines marking the edges of the pitch or the goalposts. In the same way I am of the opinion that if a man decides to dedicate his entire life to judaism then he becomes a part of the landscape of Israel. That which is fought for. Like Women and children ( I kno Israel prides itself on females being part of the armed forces but no legitmate nation does this past a certain point and it is therefore irrelavant or this conversation wouldn't be happening just more women would be pushed to the front).
The most difficult question is this, if you are at the point where these people are required to fight is this a war you can win?? In my opinion the conscription of these people ( Women, Children, Charedim) is as good an indication as any that you have already lost.
A lot of very fine points brother!
Please define אמונה שלימה. What is incomplete faith?
Perhaps you can explain to me and the rest of the thinking world what the definition of rational thought is. Also, I am not your 'bud'.
Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein is a respected orthodox rabbi and he is pro more chareidim serving. https://cross-currents.com/2024/02/21/the-day-after-is-now/
Moshe M, thanks for that link. Rav Adlerstein writes both convincingly of the need for Charedi young men to serve their country in the IDF and movingly of the effort to supply chayalim with tefillin. It’s good to know that Rabbi Doctor Slifkin is not a lone voice crying in the wilderness.
I believe it would be beneficial for someone (Natan?) to compile a list with sources of Orthodox rabbi's that are pro Chareidim serving in the army.
Go to DL sources and you will find it all.
66,000 people cannot be forcefully drafted. Satire and incitement won't accomplish it. Only wisdom and good will can do it. This defies a solution at present. To form a government a compromise with charedim will be reached. Slifkin as usual spews out hatred and incitement, which only makes finding an accomodation more difficult.
The leaders will change their reasoning
when the funding is reduced.
Agreed. But does that make it your responsibility (or Rabbi doctor's) to be the instigator to reduce the funding? Shouldn't frum Yidden want to be the ones promoting learning?
Ok, if that makes you feel good, sure.
But aside from that, you agree that 66,000 should be voluntarily be drafted?
What about the170,000 already eligible?! 236,000?!
I think that there should be found a way to enable charedim to serve, as I have said in the past. It cannot be done by force, only by mutual accomodation. This can only happen when charei reluctance to serve is validated and they are not besmerched as cowards and parasites. There are weak lonely voices of reason, but they are drowned by the cacaphony of Slifkin, Liberman, Lapid etc.
How about if the charedi Roshei Yeshiva and politicians make the first move?
Let them propose a framework they'd like to see for charedi service in IDF those three years and this will then be the basis for negotiation.
". This can only happen when charei reluctance to serve is validated and they are not besmerched as cowards and parasites. "
Do you believe that if the gov't and pundits are silent on these issues that the Charedi world will enlist and start working in greater numbers? That the most effective engine of change is to shut up and do nothing that would actively encourage or enforce change?
Yeah ,we should kiss their a__.
We should get on our knees and beg them?
Now there is a way. The govt. is setting up Chareidi yeshivot in the Jordan valley where they learn full time except for guard duty at the border where they are stationed.
Chareidim are human beings.They don't want to die
like every normal human. Why for the Zionist State!?
It's not for the Zionist state, but for the the country they live in, their nation, families and homes.
I loved this video. Has the same vibe as the tons of anti-Zionist videos on Twitter now X which show the cruel and heartless side of the occupiers past their crocodile tears. Both the ultra orthodox dressed person and the occupier army uniforms with their crocodile tears look like typical Zionists! Where's the tears for all the women and kids of Gaza? Who is knocking on their doors? They don't have doors anymore thanks to you.
I feel awful about the Gazan casualties. Innocent people getting killed, hurt and their lives destroyed. Maybe Hamas should free Gaza now!
Haha I like how cynical you Zionists are. "Stop resisting and let us rape you and your land and then we will stop killing your kids. you say. كلب صهيوني قذر
Yecharav beitak.
Idk Arabic but you're welcome to translate. I happen not to be a Zionist at all and I think Israel has done a whole lot of stupid stuff. But enjoy your narrative.
كلب قذر كاره لليهود
أخي السلام
Go live in Gaza. We didn't start the war. The surveys say 80 per cent of the Gazans support Hamas. Blame the Hamas for using Gazans as human shields, a crime against humanity.
I think they're a totally legitimate target for satire. But I didn't find the sketch very funny. Maybe just the way it was written or performed.
Israleis (and Brits) don't have a very developed sense of humor.
Brits don’t have “a very developed sense of humor”? Ever hear of “The Goon Show,” “Monty Python's Flying Circus,” or “That Was the Week that Was” to name a few obvious counter examples? Sheesh. Next you’ll be claiming there are no beautiful movie stars from France and Italy!
My comment was based on the Brits I've come in contact with over the years. They're usually quite stiff.
They're no Seinfeld;)
Seinfeld?
Meh
Dw, I kid.