What a tasteless post. Accusing others of deflection when that's just about all you do!
Not once have you ever addressed the importance of torah and how literally nothing even comes remotely close to its toes in what matters in life. But opinions borne from utter ignorance, with the confidence of someone who knows what they're talking about, you have no problem sharing.
"It's frustrating that no matter how much pain and harm the charedi community causes to the rest of Israel, they so often refuse to acknowledge criticism as an expression of that pain and as stemming from a genuine need to create change. Instead, it's always branded as "anti-religious incitement." This is a deflection which enables the charedi community to flip the narrative, paint themselves as victims, and avoid actually dealing with the criticism."
Instead of getting "frustrated" about a "deflection", how about.....actually stopping the anti-religious incitement? Everything on your website, including your descriptions of chareidim's emunah as "stupid religious beliefs" falls into the category of anti-religious incitement. Accept that chareidim have different religious beliefs than you. That's not changing. Try to work within that. Otherwise you are getting nowhere fast, except satisfying your own hatred.
Thank you for your comments about this egregiously unfair, and unjust situation. It has been allowed for far too long and always for political expediency. Now we are involved in an existential crisis in which the Charedi participation in the defense of our country and their help in those sectors, e.g. agricultural, require their help so that we can defeat our enemy and maintain our economy. The rabbis, to whom they listen, have to tell these yeshiva boys and young men studying full-time to get out there and join their brethren for the sake of our country. Please continue to keep this issue in the forefront of our attention.
What a thought provoking post, as always. On such an original topic! I've been reading this blog for quite some time, but this is the first I've heard of all these issues. What an eye opener. Kudos!
One question for you, Rabbi Slifkin. What's your position on Chareidim in the army? Have you ever studied that topic? Either way, thanks for your posts. Keep em coming. Maybe write an article about chareidim serving in the army, don't think you've discussed that yet. And don't forget to throw in something about Chareidim serving in the army, as well.
"Personally, I think that if one considers satire to be a legitimate tool of social commentary - which I think most people do, and even charedi newspapers have political cartoons - then I don’t see why charedim should be immune. "
And some people don't see why Slifkin should be immune!
The one point that I disagree with the entire attitude is that someone who is in the service of the army and who is sacrificing for the greatest good, can be upset at someone else who doesn't give the same sacrifice. It is the bystanders like R Slifkin, who are not actually serving who have an issue, not the actual service men. To actually want someone else to shoulder the burden diminishes their sacrifice immensely. A fireman or policeman does not begrudge a bystander because they don't help them. They do their job heroically because it is the right thing to do and they do it altruistically. The entire concept of shavei benetal is laughable. Being upset because someone from a different camp from yours didn't have a levaya to go to. That is so childish behavior. If you really believe that every bullet has an address then who is to say a charedi serving will get the bullet instead of a dati luemi person as if you can make a calculation like that. Those that believe that service in klal yisrael means joining the army and fighting to protect the Jewish people should not be looking over their shoulder at those who don't serve because if they really care about how much the other person is putting in then their service value is diminished. The value becomes quid pro quo rather than actual service of conviction. If a charedi person has an honest conviction that his service is to learn Torah for the Jewish nation then he should be allowed to choose that and others who feel that fighting protection is more valuable should take up that service alltruistically.
What's wrong with anti-Haredi incitement, as long as it explicitly isn't incitement to violence? Like a call to vote only for a party that refuses to be in a coalition with a Haredi party is non-violent incitement. That's totally legitimate.
I will first state that I am neither jewish nor arab nor do I in particular want to chose a side with regard to the current conflict, only to comment on a very interesting question that is posed by the author. This question as I see it (I am open to being corrected) is should those who have dedicated themselves wholly to study of the torah, also share the responsibility for the defense of the only jewish state in existance which subsidises said study. I must also say that I have no real idea on the Haredi or charedim and the exacts specifics of what makes them such, however I do assume that to take on this identity requires alot of sacrifice. I am assuming that this dedication to the torah is above that of say an engineering student who somewhat dedicates himself to the study of engineering but does not, and is not required to remove himself from 'worldly' things which I assume ( rightly or wrongly I honestly dont know) the charedim must. Also the engineering student's dedication to engineering is supposed to directly benefit himself materially e.g. well paid and highly respected work, whereas I am assuming that he who dedicates himself to study of the torah forgoes such material benefits for the most part.
Now it may already be apparent that as part of my argument I am assuming IDF service to be somewhat 'worldly' as the engineering student would without question be required to serve.
The point I am trying to make at a minimum is that it is unfair for the charedim to be called to 'share' the burden of IDF sevice, as a lifetime of aesetic dedication to the torah is not a burden most israeli's are willing to share (another assumption).
Before Oct7 up until the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, were there many legal arguments around the haredi being able to attend nightclubs and get blackout drunk?? I mean an argument that they should be able to do this and to retain their identity as charedim with (assumption time again) the moral superiority that comes with the role of religious aesetic?? The engineering student of course would have no questions about his identity nor have to justify anything nor would it be a national question were he to buy himself a few drinks.
Can the chardim be LGBTQ+?? Holiday in the maldives?? Be CEO of intel?? Have there been any charedim prime ministers?? What is the level of interaction in Israeli political life?? Do they have time to study the torah and take on a full politcal portfolio?? ( all questions I genuinely do not know the answer to, although as you can guess by now I have my assumptions).
As I said those are the minimum arguments I have against haredi conscription i.e. 'its not fair' an argument any of us humans on earth have had since learning to speak.
So then to higher moral questions.
Is it not true that the Haredi have already sacrificed their lives in the name of Israel/Judaism?? Voluntarily no less. I would posit (somewhat controversially and maybe unecessarily but there you go) that this is a greater sacrifice than any conscript could possiibly achieve. I do wonder if this question were left only to those who volunteered IDF for service before Oct7 would they require the charedim to be forced into service while knowing the value of making a personal decision to dedicate your life for the benefit of other jews.
If I as a non jew were to come to Israel and ask aloud the question 'what does it mean to be a jew?' would you prefer I was aswered by the engineering student or the student of the torah?? I ask this because in my opinion there is a separation between, on the one hand the duty to fight, and on the other hand that which is to be fought for. What is Israel?? What is the IDF fighting for and more importantly should that which is being fought for be forced to fight?? Because fighting is hard for those who fight?? Isn't that self defeating (for those who are fought for/that which is fought for to fight)?? Are there charedim who should be conscripted ahead of netanyahu's son?? How many?? To what is he dedicated?? To whom?? Israel?? Judaism?? God?? As to the title of the article what is the true deflection?? In my opinion sending the charedim to war is somewhat like the image of the ourabourous, almost like judaism eating itself to save itself. Makes no sense.
For want of a better metaphor I refer to my favorite sport, football (soccer) although the rules are different now. It used to be that if the ball was kicked and it hit the referee play would continue, in the same way that if the ball were kicked and it hit a goal post and bounced back into onto the field play would continue. The reason for this is that the referee was considered a part of the LANDSCAPE of the football pitch like the lines marking the edges of the pitch or the goalposts. In the same way I am of the opinion that if a man decides to dedicate his entire life to judaism then he becomes a part of the landscape of Israel. That which is fought for. Like Women and children ( I kno Israel prides itself on females being part of the armed forces but no legitmate nation does this past a certain point and it is therefore irrelavant or this conversation wouldn't be happening just more women would be pushed to the front).
The most difficult question is this, if you are at the point where these people are required to fight is this a war you can win?? In my opinion the conscription of these people ( Women, Children, Charedim) is as good an indication as any that you have already lost.
66,000 people cannot be forcefully drafted. Satire and incitement won't accomplish it. Only wisdom and good will can do it. This defies a solution at present. To form a government a compromise with charedim will be reached. Slifkin as usual spews out hatred and incitement, which only makes finding an accomodation more difficult.
I loved this video. Has the same vibe as the tons of anti-Zionist videos on Twitter now X which show the cruel and heartless side of the occupiers past their crocodile tears. Both the ultra orthodox dressed person and the occupier army uniforms with their crocodile tears look like typical Zionists! Where's the tears for all the women and kids of Gaza? Who is knocking on their doors? They don't have doors anymore thanks to you.
What a tasteless post. Accusing others of deflection when that's just about all you do!
Not once have you ever addressed the importance of torah and how literally nothing even comes remotely close to its toes in what matters in life. But opinions borne from utter ignorance, with the confidence of someone who knows what they're talking about, you have no problem sharing.
"It's frustrating that no matter how much pain and harm the charedi community causes to the rest of Israel, they so often refuse to acknowledge criticism as an expression of that pain and as stemming from a genuine need to create change. Instead, it's always branded as "anti-religious incitement." This is a deflection which enables the charedi community to flip the narrative, paint themselves as victims, and avoid actually dealing with the criticism."
Instead of getting "frustrated" about a "deflection", how about.....actually stopping the anti-religious incitement? Everything on your website, including your descriptions of chareidim's emunah as "stupid religious beliefs" falls into the category of anti-religious incitement. Accept that chareidim have different religious beliefs than you. That's not changing. Try to work within that. Otherwise you are getting nowhere fast, except satisfying your own hatred.
Thank you for your comments about this egregiously unfair, and unjust situation. It has been allowed for far too long and always for political expediency. Now we are involved in an existential crisis in which the Charedi participation in the defense of our country and their help in those sectors, e.g. agricultural, require their help so that we can defeat our enemy and maintain our economy. The rabbis, to whom they listen, have to tell these yeshiva boys and young men studying full-time to get out there and join their brethren for the sake of our country. Please continue to keep this issue in the forefront of our attention.
What a thought provoking post, as always. On such an original topic! I've been reading this blog for quite some time, but this is the first I've heard of all these issues. What an eye opener. Kudos!
One question for you, Rabbi Slifkin. What's your position on Chareidim in the army? Have you ever studied that topic? Either way, thanks for your posts. Keep em coming. Maybe write an article about chareidim serving in the army, don't think you've discussed that yet. And don't forget to throw in something about Chareidim serving in the army, as well.
Love ya Doc!
"Personally, I think that if one considers satire to be a legitimate tool of social commentary - which I think most people do, and even charedi newspapers have political cartoons - then I don’t see why charedim should be immune. "
And some people don't see why Slifkin should be immune!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-donkey-of-chelm
Thank you Rabbi Slifkin for the youtube link. There's a beautiful and popular comment on it as follows, which really gets to the heart of the matter:
מעניין שבמקביל להתגברות השנאה כלפי החרדים בארץ ישנה התגברות של שנאה כלפי ישראל בכל העולם.
The one point that I disagree with the entire attitude is that someone who is in the service of the army and who is sacrificing for the greatest good, can be upset at someone else who doesn't give the same sacrifice. It is the bystanders like R Slifkin, who are not actually serving who have an issue, not the actual service men. To actually want someone else to shoulder the burden diminishes their sacrifice immensely. A fireman or policeman does not begrudge a bystander because they don't help them. They do their job heroically because it is the right thing to do and they do it altruistically. The entire concept of shavei benetal is laughable. Being upset because someone from a different camp from yours didn't have a levaya to go to. That is so childish behavior. If you really believe that every bullet has an address then who is to say a charedi serving will get the bullet instead of a dati luemi person as if you can make a calculation like that. Those that believe that service in klal yisrael means joining the army and fighting to protect the Jewish people should not be looking over their shoulder at those who don't serve because if they really care about how much the other person is putting in then their service value is diminished. The value becomes quid pro quo rather than actual service of conviction. If a charedi person has an honest conviction that his service is to learn Torah for the Jewish nation then he should be allowed to choose that and others who feel that fighting protection is more valuable should take up that service alltruistically.
What's wrong with anti-Haredi incitement, as long as it explicitly isn't incitement to violence? Like a call to vote only for a party that refuses to be in a coalition with a Haredi party is non-violent incitement. That's totally legitimate.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
I will first state that I am neither jewish nor arab nor do I in particular want to chose a side with regard to the current conflict, only to comment on a very interesting question that is posed by the author. This question as I see it (I am open to being corrected) is should those who have dedicated themselves wholly to study of the torah, also share the responsibility for the defense of the only jewish state in existance which subsidises said study. I must also say that I have no real idea on the Haredi or charedim and the exacts specifics of what makes them such, however I do assume that to take on this identity requires alot of sacrifice. I am assuming that this dedication to the torah is above that of say an engineering student who somewhat dedicates himself to the study of engineering but does not, and is not required to remove himself from 'worldly' things which I assume ( rightly or wrongly I honestly dont know) the charedim must. Also the engineering student's dedication to engineering is supposed to directly benefit himself materially e.g. well paid and highly respected work, whereas I am assuming that he who dedicates himself to study of the torah forgoes such material benefits for the most part.
Now it may already be apparent that as part of my argument I am assuming IDF service to be somewhat 'worldly' as the engineering student would without question be required to serve.
The point I am trying to make at a minimum is that it is unfair for the charedim to be called to 'share' the burden of IDF sevice, as a lifetime of aesetic dedication to the torah is not a burden most israeli's are willing to share (another assumption).
Before Oct7 up until the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, were there many legal arguments around the haredi being able to attend nightclubs and get blackout drunk?? I mean an argument that they should be able to do this and to retain their identity as charedim with (assumption time again) the moral superiority that comes with the role of religious aesetic?? The engineering student of course would have no questions about his identity nor have to justify anything nor would it be a national question were he to buy himself a few drinks.
Can the chardim be LGBTQ+?? Holiday in the maldives?? Be CEO of intel?? Have there been any charedim prime ministers?? What is the level of interaction in Israeli political life?? Do they have time to study the torah and take on a full politcal portfolio?? ( all questions I genuinely do not know the answer to, although as you can guess by now I have my assumptions).
As I said those are the minimum arguments I have against haredi conscription i.e. 'its not fair' an argument any of us humans on earth have had since learning to speak.
So then to higher moral questions.
Is it not true that the Haredi have already sacrificed their lives in the name of Israel/Judaism?? Voluntarily no less. I would posit (somewhat controversially and maybe unecessarily but there you go) that this is a greater sacrifice than any conscript could possiibly achieve. I do wonder if this question were left only to those who volunteered IDF for service before Oct7 would they require the charedim to be forced into service while knowing the value of making a personal decision to dedicate your life for the benefit of other jews.
If I as a non jew were to come to Israel and ask aloud the question 'what does it mean to be a jew?' would you prefer I was aswered by the engineering student or the student of the torah?? I ask this because in my opinion there is a separation between, on the one hand the duty to fight, and on the other hand that which is to be fought for. What is Israel?? What is the IDF fighting for and more importantly should that which is being fought for be forced to fight?? Because fighting is hard for those who fight?? Isn't that self defeating (for those who are fought for/that which is fought for to fight)?? Are there charedim who should be conscripted ahead of netanyahu's son?? How many?? To what is he dedicated?? To whom?? Israel?? Judaism?? God?? As to the title of the article what is the true deflection?? In my opinion sending the charedim to war is somewhat like the image of the ourabourous, almost like judaism eating itself to save itself. Makes no sense.
For want of a better metaphor I refer to my favorite sport, football (soccer) although the rules are different now. It used to be that if the ball was kicked and it hit the referee play would continue, in the same way that if the ball were kicked and it hit a goal post and bounced back into onto the field play would continue. The reason for this is that the referee was considered a part of the LANDSCAPE of the football pitch like the lines marking the edges of the pitch or the goalposts. In the same way I am of the opinion that if a man decides to dedicate his entire life to judaism then he becomes a part of the landscape of Israel. That which is fought for. Like Women and children ( I kno Israel prides itself on females being part of the armed forces but no legitmate nation does this past a certain point and it is therefore irrelavant or this conversation wouldn't be happening just more women would be pushed to the front).
The most difficult question is this, if you are at the point where these people are required to fight is this a war you can win?? In my opinion the conscription of these people ( Women, Children, Charedim) is as good an indication as any that you have already lost.
Please define אמונה שלימה. What is incomplete faith?
Perhaps you can explain to me and the rest of the thinking world what the definition of rational thought is. Also, I am not your 'bud'.
Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein is a respected orthodox rabbi and he is pro more chareidim serving. https://cross-currents.com/2024/02/21/the-day-after-is-now/
66,000 people cannot be forcefully drafted. Satire and incitement won't accomplish it. Only wisdom and good will can do it. This defies a solution at present. To form a government a compromise with charedim will be reached. Slifkin as usual spews out hatred and incitement, which only makes finding an accomodation more difficult.
I loved this video. Has the same vibe as the tons of anti-Zionist videos on Twitter now X which show the cruel and heartless side of the occupiers past their crocodile tears. Both the ultra orthodox dressed person and the occupier army uniforms with their crocodile tears look like typical Zionists! Where's the tears for all the women and kids of Gaza? Who is knocking on their doors? They don't have doors anymore thanks to you.
I think they're a totally legitimate target for satire. But I didn't find the sketch very funny. Maybe just the way it was written or performed.