When Moshe Rabbenu leaves the Palace in Egypt and goes to see the slaves that he knew were his "brothers," the Torah reports that he encounters two Jews arguing and fighting. The correct translation of the verse (Shemot 2:13) -וַיֹּאמֶר לָרָשָׁע לָמָּה תַכֶּה רֵעֶךָ - He (Moshe) said to the evil one, "Why are you going to hit your friend?" Not, "Why are you hitting your friend?" but "why are you about to hit your friend?" Rashi responds to the obvious question: Why is the Jew who is going to hit his friend called an evil person - רשע? Rashi says: Just raising your hand to hit someone makes you an evil person - even before your actually hit the person." I guess the fellows at Ponevitch have forgotten what Rashi says. Too bad." Rashi is still one of the primary teachers of Judaism, including Jewish ethics. It is important that we listen and integrate into ourselves the life-lessons Rashi teaches us.
>“One of the many differences between American yeshivish Jews and Israeli charedim is how the former is often so unaware of the realities of the latter.”
"Differences between" implies contrasting characteristics, but the sentence focuses only on one side (American yeshivish Jews' lack of awareness). Also, are Israeli charedim more aware of the realities of American yeshivish? Doubtful.
2)
>“A powerful example is a highly significant story in one of the world’s top charedi yeshivos that is assiduously not reported by any of the yeshivish print press in the US”.
The phrase, “assiduously not reported” is misleading. It’s not that stories are deliberately omitted, it’s simply that only positive (or at most, neutral) news about the community is ever published in the yeshivish press in the US. (Or if it's one of the many never-ending general "crises" affecting the community: shidduch crisis, parnasa crisis, loud music at chasunah crisis, etc etc.)
3)
>“At the prestigious Ponovezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, there is a power struggle over leadership.”
this is hardly a revelation. Having studied in yeshivish yeshivas, I can confirm that this power struggle, which began in 1997, is well-known. The most significant violence occurred between 1997 and 2009.
In general, this type of negative news is widely known in the yeshivish world through word of mouth, but it's never published. It's commonly referred to as "hock," "neias,", or more negatively as "loshon hora" (gossip), not that that stops it from being discussed by plenty of people in the community.
4)
>“Instead, they went for arbitration to a retired secular Israeli judge who went off the derech!”
This is indeed scandalous, but it’s not unique. Similar scenarios have occurred with Satmar, Bobov, Ger, and numerous other ultra-Orthodox groups, all of whom have recently brought internal disputes and asset battles to secular courts (as Michael Sedley mentioned as well, in his comment)
The battle of over Ponovitch is a terrible Chilul HaShem, however I don't think that such disagreements are unique to any specific community or to Israel.
I believe the battle between the 2 Satmar Rebbes in New York has turned violent, and they have used the secular courts to resolve internal disputes. I think that Bobov also have a serious split in the community (Bobov and Bobov-45).
If you go back not too far in history, there have been many cases of Rabbis or entire communities arrested or denounced to the non-Jewish authorities as a consequence of disagreements within the community (The Malbim and the Alter Rebbe come to mind, but i am sure there are other examples)
There have also been examples within the Dati Leumi community (The split between Merkaz and Rav Tau may be an example)
Don't overlook the Vilna Gaon. The Russian authorities were called upon by both sides in the conflict between the Hasidim and the Misnagdim in the 18th century
I don't know how many other examples there are in the DL world, besides the one you mentioned (which also jumped to my mind). I cannot think of any, and I have been here close to 50 years.
But even the Merkaz/Har hamor split had no violence involved! And if you bring one "example" of such violence, then that is the exception that proves the rule.
Sadly, I pretty much share your disgust about this, Natan. But allow me to once again suggest something about how far you take this. First of all, you like to use the collective "Chareidim", as if the Ponevitch meshugas is applicable to every Jew that believes in Daas Torah, the preeminence of Talmud Torah, and the spiritual dangers of the IDF.
As for your q abt why they can't extrapolate from their coarse hishtadlus to get their intra-Yeshiva way, to the noble and very urgent need for their hishtadlus to help our nation defend itself ("If they are already believe in such an approach, why can’t they be in the army ...") - I'll just remind you that all those apologetics abt hishtadlus is a smokescreen. Their real issue is the spiritual nature of the IDF.
What gets to me is why they're not concerned abt the spiritual dangers of those riots, and secular mediators!
"- I'll just remind you that all those apologetics abt hishtadlus is a smokescreen. Their real issue is the spiritual nature of the IDF." I agree that the hishtadlus is a smokescreen. But so is "the spiritual nature of the IDF." Hesder does not carry spiritual risks. And if you wanted to argue that it does, there would still be ways for charedim to contribute without spiritual risks. They could go as a yeshiva to help on farms, and not be exposed to anyone! And they're not even interested in davenning for soldiers, instead davening "for the matzav." It's about maintaining an identity of NOT being part of the country.
Concerns abt the nature of the IDF are very real. But I agree that interlaced in this for many - but by far not ALL - is the general ethos of keeping a distance from secular society. Personally, it pains me that most chareidi leaders are so extreme about this. I agree with you that at least encourage חסד projects for war-torn communities, and even the soldiers, would be an incredible mitzvah that would not need to involve significant spiritual risks. A Yeshiva going to a farm to help would be gevalt!
re. Hesder - your assertion that it has no risks don't make it so. For that sector, it may be true (I hope so), but its a no-brainer. Their hashkafa and culture revere the IDF.
Well, the same type of thinking led to Rabbi Slifkin's ban, and as far as I know, not many people spoke up. That implies they agreed with the leaders who banned his books, etc.
If you don't agree with this type of "Charediut", more Charedim should speak up. I haven't seen that.
ouch. It's not exact. They justify trampling on certain mitzvos bein a-l-ch for the sake of preserving what they believe is the most important mitzvah: T"T.
While the DL Hesder guys who would love to combine learning and serving, have had to leave their Yeshivot to enlist early because of Haredi Batlanim who keep the important Mitzva of black hats, and neither learn nor serve...and take exemptions with the full support of most of the Haredi leadership.
I agree it lacks a certain morality, for sure. That's why this is so sad, since they display incredible morality in other realms. The big q is who dares throw stones at this glass house? We all seem to have quite some fragile glass of our own. So let's just STOP hurling stones at one another and everyone do their best to refine their morality in every mitzvah possible!
That goes back to the old "why can't we just love each other" canard.
The reason that doesn't work is that our sons are getting killed and injured. Read the biographies of the soldiers who were killed in the last couple of days. Almost all were DL..none of them came from either faction of Ponovich
You might have missed something in the Times of Israel piece: "Retired Jerusalem District Court judge David Cheshin, who was born into a well-connected Haredi family and speaks Yiddish **but left religious observance after IDF service***, has been serving as mediator in a myriad of conflicts between the two brothers-in-law for three years.
Assuming that's true, then of course they trust him. He proves their claim about the influence of IDF service.
In fairness, mediation is not *exactly* turning to the secular court system. But it sort of is.
"Ponevezh is the Haredi equivalent of an Ivy League university where Deutsch taught since 1988."
1. The whole "Ivy League" thing is the oldest cliche in the book. Ironically, it's more true now than it ever was, but mostly because the Ivy League has declined so much.
2. Deutsch taught at the Ivy League? Where are the ToI's editors? One comma would have solved the whole problem.
"Students cry over the casket of Rabbi Asher Deutsch"
Israelis don't get buried in caskets, as the picture shows.
"there is little if any intermarriage between the sides in order to avoid unnecessary family conflicts — except for '30-year-old bachelors that are desperate to marry.'"
My God.
"Deutsch was also a pragmatic political leader who co-founded with the late Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach the Bnei Torah political party,"
Aurebach was "pragmatic"? Have words lost all meaning?
Satmar had a similar dispute which was the subject of litigation in the NY state courts and there was a major court case as to who owned the library of one of the the Lubavitcher Rebbes ZL.
I used to go to a minyan across the street from the Kings County (Brooklyn) Court House that had a lot of frum lawyers suing each others' frum clients.
Has the world-wide infection of insanity also infected our Jewish learning facilities. It is said that as the time of Moshiach comes closer, the world would become 'hafuch' or flipped. Perhaps that's happening there too.
I don't know at what world YOU'RE looking, but it's not the same one at which I'm looking. Violence is prevalent across the planet including any number of 'civilized' societies. People are being accosted on public transport facilities, in restaurants, on the way to/from work, in houses of worship, and in numbers never before seen.
That's a common fallacy. While anecdotes can always be found, the data tells a different story:
"Americans tend to believe crime is up, even when official data shows it is down.
In 23 of 27 Gallup surveys conducted since 1993, at least 60% of U.S. adults have said there is more crime nationally than there was the year before, despite the downward trend in crime rates during most of that period."
FALLACY? Tell that to all the crime victims. Add to that the number of crimes that are either not reported or not accepted or prosecuted. CRIME IS UP. And that's the fact Jack.
That's not a fact; it's actually a common fallacy influenced by negativity bias and other well-documented cognitive biases. For a detailed discussion, refer to Steven Pinker's book "The Better Angels of Our Nature":
There are fewer of them today than in the early 1990s. There are literally tens of thousands of people alive today in NYC who would not be had the homicide rates remained at 1980s levels.
I will focus on homicides because they aren't subject to reporting biases. Homicide rates have plummeted nationwide since the early 1990s. NYC started the trend in 1991. EVERY source shows this and it is true in most cities. They increased in 2020 and 2021, but have been plummeting since. Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and some other cities had drops of about 40 percent just from 2023 to 2024.
In early modern Europe, the big danger wasn't violent crime it was genocidal religious wars, mostly Protestant/Catholic. The death toll was WW2 level when you consider the much smaller population. The good news is that Jews had been expelled from many of the affected areas so we didn't suffer as much.
When Moshe Rabbenu leaves the Palace in Egypt and goes to see the slaves that he knew were his "brothers," the Torah reports that he encounters two Jews arguing and fighting. The correct translation of the verse (Shemot 2:13) -וַיֹּאמֶר לָרָשָׁע לָמָּה תַכֶּה רֵעֶךָ - He (Moshe) said to the evil one, "Why are you going to hit your friend?" Not, "Why are you hitting your friend?" but "why are you about to hit your friend?" Rashi responds to the obvious question: Why is the Jew who is going to hit his friend called an evil person - רשע? Rashi says: Just raising your hand to hit someone makes you an evil person - even before your actually hit the person." I guess the fellows at Ponevitch have forgotten what Rashi says. Too bad." Rashi is still one of the primary teachers of Judaism, including Jewish ethics. It is important that we listen and integrate into ourselves the life-lessons Rashi teaches us.
יישר כוחך
A few comments:
1)
>“One of the many differences between American yeshivish Jews and Israeli charedim is how the former is often so unaware of the realities of the latter.”
"Differences between" implies contrasting characteristics, but the sentence focuses only on one side (American yeshivish Jews' lack of awareness). Also, are Israeli charedim more aware of the realities of American yeshivish? Doubtful.
2)
>“A powerful example is a highly significant story in one of the world’s top charedi yeshivos that is assiduously not reported by any of the yeshivish print press in the US”.
The phrase, “assiduously not reported” is misleading. It’s not that stories are deliberately omitted, it’s simply that only positive (or at most, neutral) news about the community is ever published in the yeshivish press in the US. (Or if it's one of the many never-ending general "crises" affecting the community: shidduch crisis, parnasa crisis, loud music at chasunah crisis, etc etc.)
3)
>“At the prestigious Ponovezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, there is a power struggle over leadership.”
this is hardly a revelation. Having studied in yeshivish yeshivas, I can confirm that this power struggle, which began in 1997, is well-known. The most significant violence occurred between 1997 and 2009.
See the Hebrew Wikipedia page: הפילוג בישיבת פוניבז': https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%92_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%91%D7%96%27
In general, this type of negative news is widely known in the yeshivish world through word of mouth, but it's never published. It's commonly referred to as "hock," "neias,", or more negatively as "loshon hora" (gossip), not that that stops it from being discussed by plenty of people in the community.
4)
>“Instead, they went for arbitration to a retired secular Israeli judge who went off the derech!”
This is indeed scandalous, but it’s not unique. Similar scenarios have occurred with Satmar, Bobov, Ger, and numerous other ultra-Orthodox groups, all of whom have recently brought internal disputes and asset battles to secular courts (as Michael Sedley mentioned as well, in his comment)
The battle of over Ponovitch is a terrible Chilul HaShem, however I don't think that such disagreements are unique to any specific community or to Israel.
I believe the battle between the 2 Satmar Rebbes in New York has turned violent, and they have used the secular courts to resolve internal disputes. I think that Bobov also have a serious split in the community (Bobov and Bobov-45).
If you go back not too far in history, there have been many cases of Rabbis or entire communities arrested or denounced to the non-Jewish authorities as a consequence of disagreements within the community (The Malbim and the Alter Rebbe come to mind, but i am sure there are other examples)
There have also been examples within the Dati Leumi community (The split between Merkaz and Rav Tau may be an example)
"The Malbim and the Alter Rebbe come to mind".
Don't overlook the Vilna Gaon. The Russian authorities were called upon by both sides in the conflict between the Hasidim and the Misnagdim in the 18th century
The Romans were called in to referee a dispute between Hasmoneans in 63 BCE.
There would not be another independent sovereign Jewish state for 2010 years.
The Romans were called in to referee a dispute between Hasmoneans in 63 BCE.
There would not be another independent sovereign Jewish state for 2010 years.
I don't know how many other examples there are in the DL world, besides the one you mentioned (which also jumped to my mind). I cannot think of any, and I have been here close to 50 years.
But even the Merkaz/Har hamor split had no violence involved! And if you bring one "example" of such violence, then that is the exception that proves the rule.
You are dating yourself regarding Satmar.
Look who it is!!
Sadly, I pretty much share your disgust about this, Natan. But allow me to once again suggest something about how far you take this. First of all, you like to use the collective "Chareidim", as if the Ponevitch meshugas is applicable to every Jew that believes in Daas Torah, the preeminence of Talmud Torah, and the spiritual dangers of the IDF.
As for your q abt why they can't extrapolate from their coarse hishtadlus to get their intra-Yeshiva way, to the noble and very urgent need for their hishtadlus to help our nation defend itself ("If they are already believe in such an approach, why can’t they be in the army ...") - I'll just remind you that all those apologetics abt hishtadlus is a smokescreen. Their real issue is the spiritual nature of the IDF.
What gets to me is why they're not concerned abt the spiritual dangers of those riots, and secular mediators!
"- I'll just remind you that all those apologetics abt hishtadlus is a smokescreen. Their real issue is the spiritual nature of the IDF." I agree that the hishtadlus is a smokescreen. But so is "the spiritual nature of the IDF." Hesder does not carry spiritual risks. And if you wanted to argue that it does, there would still be ways for charedim to contribute without spiritual risks. They could go as a yeshiva to help on farms, and not be exposed to anyone! And they're not even interested in davenning for soldiers, instead davening "for the matzav." It's about maintaining an identity of NOT being part of the country.
Concerns abt the nature of the IDF are very real. But I agree that interlaced in this for many - but by far not ALL - is the general ethos of keeping a distance from secular society. Personally, it pains me that most chareidi leaders are so extreme about this. I agree with you that at least encourage חסד projects for war-torn communities, and even the soldiers, would be an incredible mitzvah that would not need to involve significant spiritual risks. A Yeshiva going to a farm to help would be gevalt!
re. Hesder - your assertion that it has no risks don't make it so. For that sector, it may be true (I hope so), but its a no-brainer. Their hashkafa and culture revere the IDF.
Well, the same type of thinking led to Rabbi Slifkin's ban, and as far as I know, not many people spoke up. That implies they agreed with the leaders who banned his books, etc.
If you don't agree with this type of "Charediut", more Charedim should speak up. I haven't seen that.
They do exactly what they accuse the Datiim of doing. They choose the Mitzvot that interest them, and ignore those that they consider inconvenient
"Daas Torah" has long, long meant "I do what I want to do."
ouch. It's not exact. They justify trampling on certain mitzvos bein a-l-ch for the sake of preserving what they believe is the most important mitzvah: T"T.
There's a method to their madness
While the DL Hesder guys who would love to combine learning and serving, have had to leave their Yeshivot to enlist early because of Haredi Batlanim who keep the important Mitzva of black hats, and neither learn nor serve...and take exemptions with the full support of most of the Haredi leadership.
ראה רד"ק ירמיהו ב,ח
רמב"ם הלכות גניבה ז,יב
רמב"ם ורא"ש פאה א,א
רמב"ם הלכות יסודי התורה ה,יא
ברכות דף יז עמוד א מרגלא בפומיה דרבא
העמק דבר של הנצי"ב, פתיחה לספר בראשית
יומא דף ט עמוד ב ליד אות (ד) של הב"ח לגבי חרבן בית שני
Thier method lacks morality which is inherently anti HaShem and anti Torah
I agree it lacks a certain morality, for sure. That's why this is so sad, since they display incredible morality in other realms. The big q is who dares throw stones at this glass house? We all seem to have quite some fragile glass of our own. So let's just STOP hurling stones at one another and everyone do their best to refine their morality in every mitzvah possible!
That goes back to the old "why can't we just love each other" canard.
The reason that doesn't work is that our sons are getting killed and injured. Read the biographies of the soldiers who were killed in the last couple of days. Almost all were DL..none of them came from either faction of Ponovich
so you feel justified for your hatred and mockery?
Not hatred.. deep frustration
You might have missed something in the Times of Israel piece: "Retired Jerusalem District Court judge David Cheshin, who was born into a well-connected Haredi family and speaks Yiddish **but left religious observance after IDF service***, has been serving as mediator in a myriad of conflicts between the two brothers-in-law for three years.
Assuming that's true, then of course they trust him. He proves their claim about the influence of IDF service.
touche`
Or, it proves that such despicable behavior witnessed by youth drives them away from religion…
https://open.substack.com/pub/doniel/p/army-exemption?r=2842py&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
https://open.substack.com/pub/doniel/p/army-exemption?r=2842py&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Their own corruption will be their own downfall
But they will take so many other Jews with them
Amen
In fairness, mediation is not *exactly* turning to the secular court system. But it sort of is.
"Ponevezh is the Haredi equivalent of an Ivy League university where Deutsch taught since 1988."
1. The whole "Ivy League" thing is the oldest cliche in the book. Ironically, it's more true now than it ever was, but mostly because the Ivy League has declined so much.
2. Deutsch taught at the Ivy League? Where are the ToI's editors? One comma would have solved the whole problem.
"Students cry over the casket of Rabbi Asher Deutsch"
Israelis don't get buried in caskets, as the picture shows.
"there is little if any intermarriage between the sides in order to avoid unnecessary family conflicts — except for '30-year-old bachelors that are desperate to marry.'"
My God.
"Deutsch was also a pragmatic political leader who co-founded with the late Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach the Bnei Torah political party,"
Aurebach was "pragmatic"? Have words lost all meaning?
More pragmatic than Rav Tzvi Friedman, for example.... All is relative.
What's the problem? This is simply הרבצת תורה!
Doesn't the Rosh Yeshiva from Midrash shmeuel hail from Ponevizh?
That's a really sick place that abuses it's talmidim, nobody ever had the guts to blow the whistle on them
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-is-cult
If you read Making of a Gadol in either of its formats such disputes are not exactly novel
Satmar had a similar dispute which was the subject of litigation in the NY state courts and there was a major court case as to who owned the library of one of the the Lubavitcher Rebbes ZL.
I used to go to a minyan across the street from the Kings County (Brooklyn) Court House that had a lot of frum lawyers suing each others' frum clients.
Has the world-wide infection of insanity also infected our Jewish learning facilities. It is said that as the time of Moshiach comes closer, the world would become 'hafuch' or flipped. Perhaps that's happening there too.
The developed world is far less violent now than it ever was. Incidents like these are notable because they're so rare
I don't know at what world YOU'RE looking, but it's not the same one at which I'm looking. Violence is prevalent across the planet including any number of 'civilized' societies. People are being accosted on public transport facilities, in restaurants, on the way to/from work, in houses of worship, and in numbers never before seen.
That's a common fallacy. While anecdotes can always be found, the data tells a different story:
"Americans tend to believe crime is up, even when official data shows it is down.
In 23 of 27 Gallup surveys conducted since 1993, at least 60% of U.S. adults have said there is more crime nationally than there was the year before, despite the downward trend in crime rates during most of that period."
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/24/what-the-data-says-about-crime-in-the-us/
FALLACY? Tell that to all the crime victims. Add to that the number of crimes that are either not reported or not accepted or prosecuted. CRIME IS UP. And that's the fact Jack.
That's not a fact; it's actually a common fallacy influenced by negativity bias and other well-documented cognitive biases. For a detailed discussion, refer to Steven Pinker's book "The Better Angels of Our Nature":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature
Book was written in 2011. Things have changed GREATLY since then. Go find current data.
"Tell that to all the me victims. "
There are fewer of them today than in the early 1990s. There are literally tens of thousands of people alive today in NYC who would not be had the homicide rates remained at 1980s levels.
I will focus on homicides because they aren't subject to reporting biases. Homicide rates have plummeted nationwide since the early 1990s. NYC started the trend in 1991. EVERY source shows this and it is true in most cities. They increased in 2020 and 2021, but have been plummeting since. Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and some other cities had drops of about 40 percent just from 2023 to 2024.
"Data" is not the plural of "anecdote".
We don't really know how was it back hundreds of years ago.
Actually we do. There are a lot of records.
Here is one time series
https://qz.com/162289/217-years-of-homicide-in-new-york
In early modern Europe, the big danger wasn't violent crime it was genocidal religious wars, mostly Protestant/Catholic. The death toll was WW2 level when you consider the much smaller population. The good news is that Jews had been expelled from many of the affected areas so we didn't suffer as much.
So the chart says that 1901 was the best year, contradicting @Ezra Brand.
But since the early 1900s the lowest rates were during WW2 under La Guardia, and in the 2010s under De Blasio.
With Jews like these, who needs anti-semites?
That was you that simplified the טומאה categories? If so, again thanks, there is brilliance in simplicity.
Well stated above. YK
We have been learning the procedures for selecting a beit din in Daf Yomi, tractate Sanhedrin, THIS WEEK! Do they not follow Chazal?