Goldknopf stated that the "deal" (i.e. surrender) is an unalloyed good, as pikuach nefesh overrides everything. (Which of course it doesn't, but we've all known the charedi leaders are ignoramuses.) To which one commentator replied, "Apparently it overrides everything except when it requires you to draft."
Whoever said that the charedi parties don't have a right to vote on this was right.
First you quote Goldnknopf, then you say 'Charedi leaders'. Which is it? Because there are window cleaners, bottle washers, politicians, and bloggers in the Charedi world. None of whom are leaders.
Are you responsible for what your window cleaner says?
They endorsed the politicians as politicians, to vote for the agenda they set. Nothing else. Not their private lives, not their foolish statements, not their choice of detergent, or their wife-beating/lack thereof.
Whenever I read something that includes 'end of story', 'no way around it', or 'it's clear', I get the feeling that some weak argument is being presented.
I really don't see an analogy between an elected representative an a window washer. They represent my interests and views. If they didn't, I wouldn't vote them in.
The charedi parties' traditional position has been to just go along with the government on issues of defense. If they're hawkish when the government is dovish, they'll be accused, "You want other people's sons to fight, while you stay in the beis midrash?"
It sounds more "Torah-dik" when you throw in terms like "pikuach nefesh".
I remember that Rav Mordechai Eliyahu ruled immediately, when Gilad Shalit was captured, that he (unfortunately, and certainly through no fault of his own) has the din of a "rodef", because releasing terrorists to free him will only endanger more lives. It sounds cruel and heartless, but that's the cold halachic calculus that Rav Eliyahu used.
I just quoted the bottom line. I'm sure there is a whole analysis that Rav Eliyahu made that weighs both sides of the issue. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much of a p'sak, just blurting out what to do without any supporting texts.
Not every "Small minded person" who says IDIOTIC things do we need to respond. There are just too many out there!
Reminds me, I once stooped at a light on a Bowery corner, and a guy came over with a bottle and squeegee and started cleaning my window. As I did not give him money, he spewed derogatory remarks art me. Cheap, ugly, misfit etc. did I roll down my window and argue with him?
R Eliyahu is not an expert in any of the relevant fields needed to come to a decision about whether or not a prisoner swap is a good idea. And if he was, that would be a factual prediction about the future that can be weighed against the judgment of other experts having nothing to do with halacha.
Listen to this shiur of Rav Asher Weiss. He says that there are many factors not dealt with in shas and poskim so that the govt needs to make the tradoffs and the decisions. He also says that by Entebbe, Rabbis were asked if terrorists could be released (as was demanded) and that ROY writes that the Rabbis got together and said that they could be. He mentioned ROY, RSZA, R Elyashiv, [correction] R Shaul Yisraeli and others. He mentions that the Steipler said he didn't think it was a good idea, but the govt had what to rely on if they decided to do so. Where is this Rav Mordechai Eliyahu psak that you refer to? https://torahanytime.com/lectures/267430
For the record, Rav Asher Weiss didn't say Rav Mordechai Eliyahu was in the meeting (I didn't see the original source in Rav Ovadia, maybe he says it there)
I don't know if I could find what Rav Mordechai Eliyahu wrote regarding Gilad Shalit. I just heard the conclusion, without seeing it in writing.
Again, Entebbe involved many more hostages than just a single soldier--as is the case now. So maybe that also has to be considered. (Even Rav Weiss says in the lecture that the Shalit deal was a mistake.)
And although I (sort of) remember Hamas demanding just 200+ terrorists at first, and upping the ante until it reached 1000 terrorists, the Wikipedia article on the Shalit deal said that Hamas immediately demanded the release of 1000 terrorists to free Shalit. That exorbitant demands may also have been a consideration.
Well, like I said: A UTJ guy can't say, "We can't rely on a ceasefire agreement! We have to go fight the terrorists until they're eradicated!" The answer will be, "What do you mean by "we", exactly?"
The ultra-Orthodox ministers cast their ballots on Friday and did not remain for the security briefings that extended into Shabbat. Subsequently, the government made its decision on Saturday. Therefore, the ultra-Orthodox ministers signed their approval on Friday without any knowledge of the consequences. Saada stated, 'When other people's children are fighting, it doesn't interest them
We are jumping on peanuts. They knew what the deal is and they d with the government. This argument about shabbos has no foothold in reality.
What we can look at - the Charedim are still hoping they pass a draft law that will let all their draft dodgers continue sitting around and let others do the heavy lifting.
They would not want to jeopardize their hope - so they lay down stroke the government and hope they get stroked back.
Maybe this would be a reasonable objection if they had voted against a ceasefire and to make other people fight for them. In reality, they voted with the pm and govt for a ceasefire. Also, in reality everyone had picked their position. This is not some new novel idea.
Maybe? They voted for the release of about a thousand terrorists into the State of Israel, each of whom murdered more than one Jew; some of whom burned babies alive. Some of whom raped Jewish women. They voted for complete surrender to American dictates that care as little about Jewish lives as a garlic peel. They voted for the weakening of the State of Israel's defense from a military perspective. And who knows what else? After all, the discussion is secret?? They didn't even know in advance what they would vote on.
You have to understand, David is a good Lefty, and, as such, "ceasefires" are always an undebatable good. Jewish women being raped and murdered and three-month-olds having their heads cut off do not enter into the equation.
In addition, he's a charedi, so they can not do wrong, at least if they agree with him.
All of what you are saying was known before the govt meeting. What you are saying is that you personally disagree. It’s a completely reasonable position. The majority, knowing the same facts, disagree. It’s not that they could not be bothered to find out what you know.
The best proof that the Israeli public knew almost nothing in advance is the need for a cabinet meeting and government before deciding of the very long review of the intelligence, military, and National Security Agency. It entered deep in Shabat
They needed to do that to be informed and because you have to do a review. The parties and individuals had made up their minds. I agree that this discussion is docheh Shabbos and if they are ministers they should have joined. But the result would have been the same.
I listened to Haviv Rettig Gur speak. He said that some 70% of the people polled are in favor of the hostage deal--despite having to release so many terrorists in exchange. Voting against would just be a protest vote, nothing more.
The people protesting screamed for a deal, any deal, for over a year. As soon as there was a deal, they started screaming that it only should be a complete deal or nothing. It's so transparent, and we know what they are really about.
Well one alternative could be (not saying it would happen, but it could) is that you continue the war as is for another fifteen months losing half of the remaining hostages while the other have suffer another 15 months of torture and another 15 months of lost IDF soldiers while Hamas remains in charge in Gaza and you lose the support of Trump who demands the war to be over, are further isolated on the world stage and we are back were we are right now but with all those lost hostages, soldiers and further tortured hostages and in a worse bargaining position.
“I met friends over Shabbos who told me how betrayed their sons feel that all their sacrifice in having left yeshiva or their jobs and families to fight over the last year has been in vain.”
I’m so sad to heard this because these soldiers should be so proud of what they have accomplished in terribly difficult circumstances. The country is so much safer now than before Oct 7th with so many threats eliminated.
This is the sad result of such terrible political leadership openly framing reasonable decisions about an unknowable future as a total defeat in order to achieve their own political aims having nothing to do with Oct 7th and a PM who kowtows to them to save his own skin.
Just like you're sloooowwwlly coming around to realize that a Palestinian state is a horrible idea, so one day you may come around to realize that Bibi isn't the absolute monster you seem to think he is.
That's all true. (Same for Trump, come to think.) And yet somehow he manages to do good. The world is an odd place.
Sometimes, of course, you *need* jerks in power. Rudy Giuliani a real jerk, but I live in New York in 1992 and I can tell you he's exactly what the city needed.
Maybe it took a real jerk to ignore whoever was pulling Biden's strings.
Is this comment posted by a real person or an AI hallucination? Those are definitely words strung together with proper syntax but their relationship to what happened in the real world has been severed. Biden could have forced a deal at any time but didn’t. Trump actually did force a deal and Netanuahu didn’t not ignore him. I guess Netanyahu wasn’t enough of a jerk?
Maybe it’s not a hallucination but the training set was cut before this month.
He is a corrupt wannabe dictator, a friend of evil dictators, and a complete failure in military and intelligence matters. His career should have ended the same way Golda Meier's did after her failure in 1973
Devarim Betalim? I guess discussing the sun’s path at night, spontaneous generation of mice and lice, and who own half a dirty blanket found in the market square are much more worthy of discussion….
Chazal also knew what they were talking about when they ruled that there are no exemptions during a מלחמת מצוה, and that there are limits to the great מצוה of פדיון שבויים.
Such matter are not דברים בטלים and חז"ל discussed them.
I literally have no words for someone who thinks discussing the halacihc aspects pidyon shivuyim is bitul zman and discussing spontaneous generation trumps it
Discussion of פדיון שבוים, by those who have to make a decision, is not ביטול זמן. Unlike by those who have no input in the decision, or method of knowing the details of the deal.
But discussion of שנים אוחזין בטלית by those who aren't deciding the Halacha, is not.
This is the "traditional" response. Don't get involved. And then complain about those who do get involved.
Settle the land? Don't get involved. But complain about those who do.
Defend the Jewish people? Don't get involved. But complain about those who do.
I refer you again to the Yonoson Rosenblum in Jewish Observer (Sept 2005):
"United Torah Judaism's decision not to join the anti-disengagement forces reflects the strong preference of the Torah leadership to avoid casting the decisive vote on matters of national security, and especially not against the will of the majority of Israeli citizens. The great Torah leaders of Eretz Yisroel have been almost completely Silent on the Gaza withdrawal...."
So Da'as Torah™ while infallible, doesn't touch upon all matters. Especially if it's more profitable to keep mum.
And yet, in the years since, Charedi apologists attack the government for the Gaza fiasco. Just days (ago) a commenter here dared to claim that the UTJ was opposed!
I will (ever so cautiously) predict that this deal (if taken to its Bidenesque conclusion) will in the coming years be used by Charedim to "prove" how evil the ממשלת זדון is.
I cannot fathom how we can be advised to ignore thinking about the hostage deal, and how the topic is devarim beteilim. Even if we don’t know what’s right and wrong, we should have this deal in our heart as a way to empathize with our brothers and sisters who are affected by the deals. We need to be nosei beol chaveiro. Empathy with the joy of the hostages and their families who will finally be reunited. Empathy with the families of the bereaved whose killers are now being released. Empathy with the hostages and their families who are not included in the deal. Empathy with the joy of the soldiers who can now return home. Empathy with the soldiers who lost so much and now feel abandoned by the deal that threatens to undo what they sacrificed for. Empathy for the people of the State of Israel who are now fearful what the added threat of released terrorists bring. And yes, even empathy for our politicians who had to go through the psychological torture of making such difficult decision.
Seeing the "victory" parades by the hamas thugs makes me puke.
As a volunteer over the past year and a half I cry for the lives of our dear boys and girls who fought and died for the ego of sick and putrid political gains.
Sadly even if they are alive how many are ever going to get back to a normal life. After this it's almost impossible.
I'm not sure whether there should be "Da'as Torah" on whether the deal is good or bad. It's like asking "Da'as Torah" on whether to have a particular surgery or medical treatment, or whether to invest in a certain portfolio, or whether to update the break mechanism in your car. In each case the answer should be "Ask the experts in the field".
All Israelis are anguished over the deal - on one hand all Israelis anxiously want to see the hostages brought home as quickly as possible, on the other hand all Israelis do not want to see Hamas to return to power and plan the next attack putting the lives of thousands of civilians and soldiers at risk.
It is impossible to know whether this details will do any of the above, the finer details will never be made public (for example, what type of pressure Trump is putting on both sides, how much confidence the IDF has that it could reconquer any territory without loss of life, what type of intelligence infrastructure the IDF has built over the past year, what are the chances that we can recover additional living or dead hostages etc., etc., etc.,). We will never have access to this type of information, and therefore anyone who says definitively that they think that this is a good deal or a bad deal should be taken with a massive grain of salt (even if they are a respected rabbi in the DL of Haredi community).
Funny, it wasn't "devarim betailim" to think about the yeshiva boys being held in prison in Japan. Or the people who died in the Meron tragedy.
I almost feel bad for him, he sounds so bitter. It's one thing he just didn't want deal with a yeshiva guy asking a hot-button political question to start a hock. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
"Because charedim (correctly) perceive themselves as a distinct community that has seceded from the larger Jewish nation, the only things that charedim think about are their own interests"
I'm sorry - just because non chareidim comprise the majority that does not prove who has seceded from whom. Any break from mesorah (or just not having a mesora) is a secession.
While R Chaim Volozhiner might have innovated something on his own (doubtful but I really don't know) the rest of the chareidi world with all of their mesorah (loosely translated as learning from the greats of the previous generation how to conduct our lives) choose to follow it. It hasn't been to their detriment except in your eyes.
While in Israel the support is more directly from the government, so the majority non chareidim get upset about it every time it's reported that the chreidim aren't doing their 'share'. Go ahead try to change it.
In the US the long term learners are supported by family and a community of people who cherish their devotion.
The overwhelming majority only get a small percentage from family and friends, or the kollel. The government programs are what keeps them not having to go to work at all.
I know this from several close people on programs, and they tell me what they get. Basically, a description of how much other people in society gives them. Lets see WIC - Food Stamps - Medicaid - Section 8 or Hud, etc. Now they have a new game - they don't get married on the books, so their wives can get on line, with the lowest to get the SINGLE MOTHER with children's program,
Take the Medicaid for example do you know what a family of several kids cost for a Health program?? 25K -30k. Then they get their rent paid, a government c/card for their food etc. It is no stretch to say each family benefits to the "minimum tune" of over $50,000 net a year.
Say take the low number just 5,000 families doing this = this cost the tax payer 50 MILLION dollars. It might be double or triple that if you add everyone up.
It is fantasies, that the community can step in with his amount. The only reason this idea flourished as we arrived at these shores, is government programs. Take it away, like back in Europe, and then you quickly realize why the largest kollel was in the town of Brody, with approximately 20 avreichim.
Hey, Brody, that's where my people were from! They weren't in the kollel, though.
My great-uncle never took American rabbanim seriously, because his rav in Brody. R' Itzele Chayes (son of the Maharatz Chayes, had a dirt floor in his house. Anyone with a floor was automatically a rich phony to him.
In addition to the irony that the Great Society of the 1960's (and similar Big States elsewhere) enables the charedi world, there's the irony that the other thing that allows them to exist is the multiculturalism that began then. Through the 1950's, the US wouldn't tolerate (socially) a big visible minority who insisted on standing out. After the 60's, it was all OK.
That's fine so long as it's legal. I'm primarily addressing those who take issue with the long term learning part of it. If the government is giving it why shouldn't they take it?
It is not legal they make money off the books and don't claim it. Or if their parent, ,or Tzdukah gives them mosey they have to report it as income. That is outright Gnevah. WHAT DON"T YOU UNDERSTAND??? However, in very few cases if they really fall into the category where they can take programs, however if they have the ability to work but choose to live off others it is' NOT MORAL"
Getting on line and saying you are not married, while wearing a kupkia, standing shoulder to shoulder with the bottom of the barrel, Prostitutes', hefker people etc. When they ask you who is the father and you say - don't really know, it could be Chaim, Yossie, maybe Shmuel That is outright lying and forget the chillel hashem. Rachmonis Ratzilon
The question was where is the mesorah for this? Neither of these approaches existed in Eastern Europe and are a 2nd half of the 20th century phenomenon. You can't get more "modernish" than that
I'm not sure what the problem is. Jews have understood the importance of learning torah for thousands of years. What difference does it make how many are inspired to learn for longer periods of time or even a lifetime?
what's wrong is that you described this as "mesorah (loosely translated as learning from the greats of the previous generation how to conduct our lives)". They are doing the opposite of what the greats of the previous generation did who all worked for a living and learned a profession because that is what the gemara requires. You are misrepresenting the meaning of mesorah.
As for "That's fine so long as it's legal", that is even more problematic. Do you think Judaism is just about Shabbos and Kashrus? That behaving ethically is unimportant so long as what you do is legal? The whole framework of Judaism is based on the notion that we have to behave like Hashem for society to successfully function which requires the highest levels of ethics. If you like mesorah, here is one for you: the highest compliment in Lithuania was to be called "yashar" straight while being called "frum" was considered an insult.
They are not doing the opposite. They're doing what they are being taught from their rabbeim is the ideal. I'm not sure you are correct that if previous generations had access to government sponsored programs in order to stay in learning they would have rejected that. Please bring some proofs.
Rabbi Gifter "Orthodoxy is a Greek term". I'm not sure what frum or yashar has to do with any of this. Torah Judaism is what I subscribe to.
"This is actually an agreement between America and the Arabs. The government here is not the decision-maker. The US demands and so it will be. The army has nothing – without America, they don’t have a single bullet to shoot"
This isn't totally wrong. Trump, Vance, and Rubio were wiling to end aid to Israel last April.
Charlie Hall is a liar. Trump was not willing to end aid to Israel. He wanted to give aid ONLY to Israel, not Ukraine. But the Democrats said if you don't agree to give aid to Ukraine (180 billion so far), then no aid to Israel.
Trump and Republicans wanted to kill the bill that included Ukraine aid, and wanted to give the aid ONLY to Israel. Dems refused, and then claimed Trump didn't want to aid Israel.
This is just made up. It wasn't a poison pill. It was the MAGA folks who didn't want to vote on Ukraine aid. Once It was separated out it passed with the support of 100 republicans in the house. Support for Ukraine and opposition to Russia is hardly a leftist view. It's a pretty standard conservative view, just not supported by MAGA. That is why the MAGA folks didn't want to bring it to a vote and held the Israel aid bill hostage. They knew the Ukraine bill woudl pass and it did.
Some MAGA republicans wanted to *not vote* on the Ukraine bill because they knew it would pass with significant republican support. They were willing to hold up Israel aid to avoid a *vote* on the Ukraine bill. The compromise which MAGA *didn't like* was to allow a vote on both and both passed.
The entire post centers on the Hebrew expression devarim beteilim (דברים בטלים). To present the strongest case for the opposing perspective, this phrase, rooted in the Talmud, refers to anything not connected to Torah - essentially mundane or worldly matters. These are regarded as trivial when measured against the cosmic significance of Torah, regardless of their actual importance.
For instance, consider the well-known Talmudic statement:
"I rise early, and they rise early:
I rise early for words of Torah,
and they rise early for devarim beteilim' (דברים בטלים)."
I and others arise early to treat patients and perform chesed, others arise early to run honest and ethical businesses to support their families. I infinitely prefer those early risers and myself.
Kollel yungerliet don’t rise early. They saunter in to kollel after 9… get a cup of coffee talk about devarim beteilim with otter kollelniks and eventually open a sefer….
Deciding that "life" is the study of God's law and that this will bring about redemption, and that the physical world he created is the temptation of Satan, is Jesus' claim that made him an heretic. Check out the censored passage in the Talmud about Jesus' apostasy.
I've studied and written about references to Jesus in the Talmud, but I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to here. The closest discussion in the Talmud about Jesus' apostasy involves his remarks about an innkeeper's physical appearance, as well as (elsewhere) his use of magic
"Yehoshua ben Perachyah understood the message, arose from Egypt, came to Israel, and happened to arrive at a certain inn on the way to Jerusalem. They treated him with great honor. Yehoshua ben Perachyah said: "How beautiful is this inn." Jesus, his student, said to him: "But my teacher, the eyes of the innkeeper's wife are "terutot" =?"lustful."
Yehoshua ben Perachyah said to him: "Wicked one! Do you involve yourself with regard to that matter?" He produced four hundred shofars and excommunicated him.
Jesus came before Yehoshua ben Perachyah several times asking: "Accept my repentance." (Note: Not God and the Halakha were injured by Jesus! It was a personal offence to his master!) Yehoshua ben Perachyah took no notice of him.
One day, Yehoshua ben Perachyah was reciting the Shema and Jesus came before him with the same request. Yehoshua ben Perachyah intended to accept it, and signaled him with his hand to wait until he completed his prayer (rember Avraham saying to God in the beginning of parashat Vayera: Wait for me! There are Ovdei Avoda Zara who are standing before me in the head of the sun! they have priority). Jesus misunderstood the gesture and thought: "He is rejecting me". In his frustration, he went and stood a brick upright to serve as an idol and he bowed to it (saying, that's what Yehoshua ben Perachyah made of Mitsvot, because he teached me that the true religion is belief only).
Yehoshua ben Perachyah then said to Jesus: "Repent" (He understood his mistake and this time, it's a repent to God). Jesus said to him: "This is the tradition that I received from you (after you rejected me time after time for my thoughts): Whoever sins and causes the masses to sin is not given the opportunity to repent" (in this world. The thoughts of Jesus were on his master, not on himself).
And the Master says: Jesus performed sorcery (because observing the mitzvot don't have any meaning in this world, so to go on, we have to perform sorcery), incited Jews to engage in idolatry (because God doesn't care about this world, they are Devorim Beteilim), and led Israel astray (to devote their lives on learning the Bible in monasteries and not on living physical mitzvot in this world).
Had Yehoshua ben Perachyah not caused him to despair of atonement, Jesus would not have taken the path of evil" (Bavli, Sanhedrin 107b).
I assume you're referring to this part specifically?:
"led Israel astray (to devote their lives on learning the Bible in monasteries and not on living physical mitzvot in this world)."
The parenthetical part is an explanation added by the modern translator (presumably Soncino or Steinsaltz, don't know where you copied this from) and has no basis or indication whatsoever in the actual Talmudic text. The Talmud simply means that Jesus led other Jews to abandon Judaism and halacha
"this is the only historical Jewish heresy of the Minim of the time of Jesus".
Actually, it's quite clear from a number of places in the Talmud that the primary heresy (מינות) it addresses is a form of theistic dualism - belief in multiple deities or שתי רשויות (not necessarily identical to the later Christian concept of a trinity, but likely related)
Ah. Yes, I've read those as well. But that's not really relevant here, as the OP specifically wrote: "Check out the censored passage in the Talmud about Jesus' apostasy"
The Gemara, including the censured version, says כִּישֵּׁף, a term we know from Chumash. According to Ramban this is literal, according to Rambam it is sleight of the hand. Either way, it is prohibited and punishable by death, as in מְכַשֵּׁפָה לֹא תְחַיֶּה" (שמות כב, יז).
The Torah is our life. Therefore, for everything that happens in our lives, we must respond according to the Torah's opinion, "Be holy." See the Ramban's commentary on this command in Vayikra, chapter 19, verse 2 and Devarim chap. 6 verse 18 'veAsita haTov vehayashar". In order to know what the Torah's opinion is for the specific case that happens to us in life, we must meditate on the Torah day and night. Therefore, when someone says: The problem of the abductees is idle talk, the interpretation is: This does not belong to our lives.
The IDF was able to rise from an extremely difficult starting point and wage an intense campaign for over a year and three months across seven different fronts. The military achievements of the IDF have altered the Middle East.
The IDF inflicted severe damage on Hamas’s military wing, created the conditions for the return of hostages, dealt an unprecedented blow to Hezbollah, and significantly weakened Iran and its regional activities.
The IDF continues to protect the residents of the Golan Heights from within the Syrian buffer zone and has successfully dismantled most of the Syrian army’s capabilities. In the West Bank, the IDF operates effectively every day and night in counterterrorism missions.
These achievements far exceed any goal discussed with the political leadership regarding warfare in each of these arenas, and their significance is even greater given the interconnected nature of these fronts.
These achievements, first and foremost, belong to the IDF’s commanders and soldiers — my subordinates. IDF troops, both in active duty and reserves, from all sectors of Israeli society, stood up to fight this just war, fought with bravery and sacrifice, and emerged victorious in every encounter with the enemy.
I would think that given that the Oral Torah says both that redeeming the captive is one of the greatest mitsvot of all, and that it is conditional on the price not being too high, rabbonim would be arguing over the deal. I suppose I was wrong.
Goldknopf stated that the "deal" (i.e. surrender) is an unalloyed good, as pikuach nefesh overrides everything. (Which of course it doesn't, but we've all known the charedi leaders are ignoramuses.) To which one commentator replied, "Apparently it overrides everything except when it requires you to draft."
Whoever said that the charedi parties don't have a right to vote on this was right.
First you quote Goldnknopf, then you say 'Charedi leaders'. Which is it? Because there are window cleaners, bottle washers, politicians, and bloggers in the Charedi world. None of whom are leaders.
Double talk. Goldnknopf was endorsed by the leadership and does their bidding. As such, when he speak stupidity he should be condemned by his bosses.
I chose my words carefully. The real leaders are the politicians, not the "gedolim."
They endorse him. Theyr'e responsible for what he says.
They're not responsible for what he says. But he is their representative and he should be condemned when he represents them in a bad light.
Are you responsible for what your window cleaner says?
They endorsed the politicians as politicians, to vote for the agenda they set. Nothing else. Not their private lives, not their foolish statements, not their choice of detergent, or their wife-beating/lack thereof.
Knesset members represent their constituents. No way around it.
Whenever I read something that includes 'end of story', 'no way around it', or 'it's clear', I get the feeling that some weak argument is being presented.
No different here.
I really don't see an analogy between an elected representative an a window washer. They represent my interests and views. If they didn't, I wouldn't vote them in.
The charedi parties' traditional position has been to just go along with the government on issues of defense. If they're hawkish when the government is dovish, they'll be accused, "You want other people's sons to fight, while you stay in the beis midrash?"
Then Goldknopf should have said that, not the nonsense he DID say.
It sounds more "Torah-dik" when you throw in terms like "pikuach nefesh".
I remember that Rav Mordechai Eliyahu ruled immediately, when Gilad Shalit was captured, that he (unfortunately, and certainly through no fault of his own) has the din of a "rodef", because releasing terrorists to free him will only endanger more lives. It sounds cruel and heartless, but that's the cold halachic calculus that Rav Eliyahu used.
That’s not halachic calculus. That’s an opinion about what will work better couched in halachic terms.
I just quoted the bottom line. I'm sure there is a whole analysis that Rav Eliyahu made that weighs both sides of the issue. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much of a p'sak, just blurting out what to do without any supporting texts.
Rabbi Slivkin,
Not every "Small minded person" who says IDIOTIC things do we need to respond. There are just too many out there!
Reminds me, I once stooped at a light on a Bowery corner, and a guy came over with a bottle and squeegee and started cleaning my window. As I did not give him money, he spewed derogatory remarks art me. Cheap, ugly, misfit etc. did I roll down my window and argue with him?
R Eliyahu is not an expert in any of the relevant fields needed to come to a decision about whether or not a prisoner swap is a good idea. And if he was, that would be a factual prediction about the future that can be weighed against the judgment of other experts having nothing to do with halacha.
Listen to this shiur of Rav Asher Weiss. He says that there are many factors not dealt with in shas and poskim so that the govt needs to make the tradoffs and the decisions. He also says that by Entebbe, Rabbis were asked if terrorists could be released (as was demanded) and that ROY writes that the Rabbis got together and said that they could be. He mentioned ROY, RSZA, R Elyashiv, [correction] R Shaul Yisraeli and others. He mentions that the Steipler said he didn't think it was a good idea, but the govt had what to rely on if they decided to do so. Where is this Rav Mordechai Eliyahu psak that you refer to? https://torahanytime.com/lectures/267430
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3304723,00.html
For the record, Rav Asher Weiss didn't say Rav Mordechai Eliyahu was in the meeting (I didn't see the original source in Rav Ovadia, maybe he says it there)
Thank you, that was my 56yo brain failing me. I mean to write Shaul Yisraeli. I'll fix that.
Thank you for the link. That's useful.
I don't know if I could find what Rav Mordechai Eliyahu wrote regarding Gilad Shalit. I just heard the conclusion, without seeing it in writing.
Again, Entebbe involved many more hostages than just a single soldier--as is the case now. So maybe that also has to be considered. (Even Rav Weiss says in the lecture that the Shalit deal was a mistake.)
And although I (sort of) remember Hamas demanding just 200+ terrorists at first, and upping the ante until it reached 1000 terrorists, the Wikipedia article on the Shalit deal said that Hamas immediately demanded the release of 1000 terrorists to free Shalit. That exorbitant demands may also have been a consideration.
Of course, their vote will just cause soldiers to fight and risk their lives a little bit further down the road.
They should abstain on all security-related issues.
I mean, they shouldn't sit in the Knesset at all, but one thing at a time.
they'll be accused, "You want other people's sons to fight, while you stay in the beis midrash?"
What accusation? It's true, and the Charedim agree with the statement, though not as an accusation.
In any case, since when is UTJ sensitive to such accusations? (Or any other party?)
Well, like I said: A UTJ guy can't say, "We can't rely on a ceasefire agreement! We have to go fight the terrorists until they're eradicated!" The answer will be, "What do you mean by "we", exactly?"
Look at the comment sections on charedi blogs. "Israeli isn't being aggressive enough, so why should charedim agree to be drafted?"
I'm not convinced.
Or have it your way and the UTJ ךןמק would be "You can't rely on a ceasefire agreement! You have to go fight the terrorists until they're eradicated!"
And why not add, "this bad deal ruins all our efforts in the בית מדרש!"
The ultra-Orthodox ministers cast their ballots on Friday and did not remain for the security briefings that extended into Shabbat. Subsequently, the government made its decision on Saturday. Therefore, the ultra-Orthodox ministers signed their approval on Friday without any knowledge of the consequences. Saada stated, 'When other people's children are fighting, it doesn't interest them
We are jumping on peanuts. They knew what the deal is and they d with the government. This argument about shabbos has no foothold in reality.
What we can look at - the Charedim are still hoping they pass a draft law that will let all their draft dodgers continue sitting around and let others do the heavy lifting.
They would not want to jeopardize their hope - so they lay down stroke the government and hope they get stroked back.
Maybe this would be a reasonable objection if they had voted against a ceasefire and to make other people fight for them. In reality, they voted with the pm and govt for a ceasefire. Also, in reality everyone had picked their position. This is not some new novel idea.
Maybe? They voted for the release of about a thousand terrorists into the State of Israel, each of whom murdered more than one Jew; some of whom burned babies alive. Some of whom raped Jewish women. They voted for complete surrender to American dictates that care as little about Jewish lives as a garlic peel. They voted for the weakening of the State of Israel's defense from a military perspective. And who knows what else? After all, the discussion is secret?? They didn't even know in advance what they would vote on.
You have to understand, David is a good Lefty, and, as such, "ceasefires" are always an undebatable good. Jewish women being raped and murdered and three-month-olds having their heads cut off do not enter into the equation.
In addition, he's a charedi, so they can not do wrong, at least if they agree with him.
David is most certainly not charedi.
I’m not a lefty either for that matter. Odd that agreeing with the majority of Israelis and Trump now makes one a lefty.
Yeah, you're a real fan of Trump.
I can assure you that a tiny percentage of Israelis, if any, is happy about this deal.
All of what you are saying was known before the govt meeting. What you are saying is that you personally disagree. It’s a completely reasonable position. The majority, knowing the same facts, disagree. It’s not that they could not be bothered to find out what you know.
The best proof that the Israeli public knew almost nothing in advance is the need for a cabinet meeting and government before deciding of the very long review of the intelligence, military, and National Security Agency. It entered deep in Shabat
They needed to do that to be informed and because you have to do a review. The parties and individuals had made up their minds. I agree that this discussion is docheh Shabbos and if they are ministers they should have joined. But the result would have been the same.
I listened to Haviv Rettig Gur speak. He said that some 70% of the people polled are in favor of the hostage deal--despite having to release so many terrorists in exchange. Voting against would just be a protest vote, nothing more.
I honestly do not think a majority are in favor.
Only two weeks ago the "polls" showed a vast majority were against a deal.
Polls mean nothing. Talking to people on the street even those who demonstrated against the government are very very unhappy with this situation
The people protesting screamed for a deal, any deal, for over a year. As soon as there was a deal, they started screaming that it only should be a complete deal or nothing. It's so transparent, and we know what they are really about.
No one is happy with the situation. The deal is a choice between bad alternatives.
Sort of like the 2024 election in the US?
Sort of like the 2016, 2020 and 2024 elections. No principled conservative/classical liberal to vote for in any of them.
How bad are the alternatives?
Well one alternative could be (not saying it would happen, but it could) is that you continue the war as is for another fifteen months losing half of the remaining hostages while the other have suffer another 15 months of torture and another 15 months of lost IDF soldiers while Hamas remains in charge in Gaza and you lose the support of Trump who demands the war to be over, are further isolated on the world stage and we are back were we are right now but with all those lost hostages, soldiers and further tortured hostages and in a worse bargaining position.
“I met friends over Shabbos who told me how betrayed their sons feel that all their sacrifice in having left yeshiva or their jobs and families to fight over the last year has been in vain.”
I’m so sad to heard this because these soldiers should be so proud of what they have accomplished in terribly difficult circumstances. The country is so much safer now than before Oct 7th with so many threats eliminated.
This is the sad result of such terrible political leadership openly framing reasonable decisions about an unknowable future as a total defeat in order to achieve their own political aims having nothing to do with Oct 7th and a PM who kowtows to them to save his own skin.
Agree 100%
Just like you're sloooowwwlly coming around to realize that a Palestinian state is a horrible idea, so one day you may come around to realize that Bibi isn't the absolute monster you seem to think he is.
Bibi isn’t a monster. He’s a corrupt jerk who only selfishly thinks of his own needs ahead of the Nation’s
That's all true. (Same for Trump, come to think.) And yet somehow he manages to do good. The world is an odd place.
Sometimes, of course, you *need* jerks in power. Rudy Giuliani a real jerk, but I live in New York in 1992 and I can tell you he's exactly what the city needed.
Maybe it took a real jerk to ignore whoever was pulling Biden's strings.
Is this comment posted by a real person or an AI hallucination? Those are definitely words strung together with proper syntax but their relationship to what happened in the real world has been severed. Biden could have forced a deal at any time but didn’t. Trump actually did force a deal and Netanuahu didn’t not ignore him. I guess Netanyahu wasn’t enough of a jerk?
Maybe it’s not a hallucination but the training set was cut before this month.
He is a corrupt wannabe dictator, a friend of evil dictators, and a complete failure in military and intelligence matters. His career should have ended the same way Golda Meier's did after her failure in 1973
Meir.
Ducking auto carrot
It's very nice of you to tell soldiers who have been fighting for a year how to feel.
The OP isn't telling them how to feel; he's analyzing the public messaging, which plays a vital role in maintaining morale
E'en so.
They should also feel confident now if they are captured the Govt will do what’s necessary to bring them home.
Ah, there's the cliche again.
Devarim Betalim? I guess discussing the sun’s path at night, spontaneous generation of mice and lice, and who own half a dirty blanket found in the market square are much more worthy of discussion….
Wow!
Chazal knew what they were talking about when they discussed characters like you.
Chazal also knew what they were talking about when they ruled that there are no exemptions during a מלחמת מצוה, and that there are limits to the great מצוה of פדיון שבויים.
Such matter are not דברים בטלים and חז"ל discussed them.
And we all know what we are talking about when we say traitors who don't consider themselves part of Israel spit on its heroes
Because a dirty blanket is more important than pidyon shivuyim?
I literally have no words for a person who thinks שנים אוחזין is about a dirty blanket. None whatsoever. Its like talking to an infant with a rattle.
I literally have no words for someone who thinks discussing the halacihc aspects pidyon shivuyim is bitul zman and discussing spontaneous generation trumps it
You are actually as dumb as you sound.
Discussion of פדיון שבוים, by those who have to make a decision, is not ביטול זמן. Unlike by those who have no input in the decision, or method of knowing the details of the deal.
But discussion of שנים אוחזין בטלית by those who aren't deciding the Halacha, is not.
Now wasn't that simple?
You’re dead wrong. someone who isn’t on a bet din who won’t have to decide how to divide a dirty blanket shouldn’t waste time learning בבא קמה either…
Glad to see I’m not the only one who was repulsed by that article.
From the very need for a 35-year-old to ask someone else what the “Daas Torah” is, because having your own opinions is treif.
To the callousness and lack of concern of the hostages. The whole thing was repulsive.
I love how it’s devatim betalim to talk about the hostages, but it’s a mitzvah to vote. (so that chareidim get financial benefits.)
Reminds me when Deri didn’t want to be “mechal shabbos” to talk about the hostages…
When Judaism is reduced to external factors, like being charedi, other Jews are just not relevant.
Once we realize being Jewish isn’t about wearing a white shirt and not having a job, we can view others as human beings.
This is the "traditional" response. Don't get involved. And then complain about those who do get involved.
Settle the land? Don't get involved. But complain about those who do.
Defend the Jewish people? Don't get involved. But complain about those who do.
I refer you again to the Yonoson Rosenblum in Jewish Observer (Sept 2005):
"United Torah Judaism's decision not to join the anti-disengagement forces reflects the strong preference of the Torah leadership to avoid casting the decisive vote on matters of national security, and especially not against the will of the majority of Israeli citizens. The great Torah leaders of Eretz Yisroel have been almost completely Silent on the Gaza withdrawal...."
So Da'as Torah™ while infallible, doesn't touch upon all matters. Especially if it's more profitable to keep mum.
And yet, in the years since, Charedi apologists attack the government for the Gaza fiasco. Just days (ago) a commenter here dared to claim that the UTJ was opposed!
I will (ever so cautiously) predict that this deal (if taken to its Bidenesque conclusion) will in the coming years be used by Charedim to "prove" how evil the ממשלת זדון is.
I cannot fathom how we can be advised to ignore thinking about the hostage deal, and how the topic is devarim beteilim. Even if we don’t know what’s right and wrong, we should have this deal in our heart as a way to empathize with our brothers and sisters who are affected by the deals. We need to be nosei beol chaveiro. Empathy with the joy of the hostages and their families who will finally be reunited. Empathy with the families of the bereaved whose killers are now being released. Empathy with the hostages and their families who are not included in the deal. Empathy with the joy of the soldiers who can now return home. Empathy with the soldiers who lost so much and now feel abandoned by the deal that threatens to undo what they sacrificed for. Empathy for the people of the State of Israel who are now fearful what the added threat of released terrorists bring. And yes, even empathy for our politicians who had to go through the psychological torture of making such difficult decision.
Seeing the "victory" parades by the hamas thugs makes me puke.
As a volunteer over the past year and a half I cry for the lives of our dear boys and girls who fought and died for the ego of sick and putrid political gains.
Sadly even if they are alive how many are ever going to get back to a normal life. After this it's almost impossible.
They should have followed the charedim's lead and avoided service. What a waste of time.
Where do you live, Chezky?
"This is not daas torah...This is poison"? But daas torah IS poison!
I'm not sure whether there should be "Da'as Torah" on whether the deal is good or bad. It's like asking "Da'as Torah" on whether to have a particular surgery or medical treatment, or whether to invest in a certain portfolio, or whether to update the break mechanism in your car. In each case the answer should be "Ask the experts in the field".
All Israelis are anguished over the deal - on one hand all Israelis anxiously want to see the hostages brought home as quickly as possible, on the other hand all Israelis do not want to see Hamas to return to power and plan the next attack putting the lives of thousands of civilians and soldiers at risk.
It is impossible to know whether this details will do any of the above, the finer details will never be made public (for example, what type of pressure Trump is putting on both sides, how much confidence the IDF has that it could reconquer any territory without loss of life, what type of intelligence infrastructure the IDF has built over the past year, what are the chances that we can recover additional living or dead hostages etc., etc., etc.,). We will never have access to this type of information, and therefore anyone who says definitively that they think that this is a good deal or a bad deal should be taken with a massive grain of salt (even if they are a respected rabbi in the DL of Haredi community).
Indeed there may not be a place for Daas Torah. But there's certainly not a place for disparaging thinking about the issue.
Funny, it wasn't "devarim betailim" to think about the yeshiva boys being held in prison in Japan. Or the people who died in the Meron tragedy.
I almost feel bad for him, he sounds so bitter. It's one thing he just didn't want deal with a yeshiva guy asking a hot-button political question to start a hock. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
"Because charedim (correctly) perceive themselves as a distinct community that has seceded from the larger Jewish nation, the only things that charedim think about are their own interests"
I'm sorry - just because non chareidim comprise the majority that does not prove who has seceded from whom. Any break from mesorah (or just not having a mesora) is a secession.
While R Chaim Volozhiner might have innovated something on his own (doubtful but I really don't know) the rest of the chareidi world with all of their mesorah (loosely translated as learning from the greats of the previous generation how to conduct our lives) choose to follow it. It hasn't been to their detriment except in your eyes.
Where is the mesorah about not working and getting others to fund your lifestyle?
The Torah itself says to learn. 40 years in the desert was the epitome.of a kollel lifestyle.
Those 'others' either need to be willing or it's by operation of law.
There we have a divide between Israel and the US.
While in Israel the support is more directly from the government, so the majority non chareidim get upset about it every time it's reported that the chreidim aren't doing their 'share'. Go ahead try to change it.
In the US the long term learners are supported by family and a community of people who cherish their devotion.
A bit wrong.
The overwhelming majority only get a small percentage from family and friends, or the kollel. The government programs are what keeps them not having to go to work at all.
I know this from several close people on programs, and they tell me what they get. Basically, a description of how much other people in society gives them. Lets see WIC - Food Stamps - Medicaid - Section 8 or Hud, etc. Now they have a new game - they don't get married on the books, so their wives can get on line, with the lowest to get the SINGLE MOTHER with children's program,
Take the Medicaid for example do you know what a family of several kids cost for a Health program?? 25K -30k. Then they get their rent paid, a government c/card for their food etc. It is no stretch to say each family benefits to the "minimum tune" of over $50,000 net a year.
Say take the low number just 5,000 families doing this = this cost the tax payer 50 MILLION dollars. It might be double or triple that if you add everyone up.
It is fantasies, that the community can step in with his amount. The only reason this idea flourished as we arrived at these shores, is government programs. Take it away, like back in Europe, and then you quickly realize why the largest kollel was in the town of Brody, with approximately 20 avreichim.
Hey, Brody, that's where my people were from! They weren't in the kollel, though.
My great-uncle never took American rabbanim seriously, because his rav in Brody. R' Itzele Chayes (son of the Maharatz Chayes, had a dirt floor in his house. Anyone with a floor was automatically a rich phony to him.
In addition to the irony that the Great Society of the 1960's (and similar Big States elsewhere) enables the charedi world, there's the irony that the other thing that allows them to exist is the multiculturalism that began then. Through the 1950's, the US wouldn't tolerate (socially) a big visible minority who insisted on standing out. After the 60's, it was all OK.
Right on. Don't listen to any rabbis. Ever.
That's fine so long as it's legal. I'm primarily addressing those who take issue with the long term learning part of it. If the government is giving it why shouldn't they take it?
Because it goes against Torah and basic ethics.
?? Please explain.
It is not legal they make money off the books and don't claim it. Or if their parent, ,or Tzdukah gives them mosey they have to report it as income. That is outright Gnevah. WHAT DON"T YOU UNDERSTAND??? However, in very few cases if they really fall into the category where they can take programs, however if they have the ability to work but choose to live off others it is' NOT MORAL"
Getting on line and saying you are not married, while wearing a kupkia, standing shoulder to shoulder with the bottom of the barrel, Prostitutes', hefker people etc. When they ask you who is the father and you say - don't really know, it could be Chaim, Yossie, maybe Shmuel That is outright lying and forget the chillel hashem. Rachmonis Ratzilon
Right. Only kollel guys do that. Again I can't say no one does it but it's not the mainstream.
Because it turns them into entitled lazy men who dont support their families
Perhaps a few as there are some rotten apples in every grocery.
Don’t forget the scams to get govt support.
When did this become a chareidi no holds barred lashon hara competition?
Because those who don't learn torah are so immune to it?
It's not institutionalized to anywhere near the degree that it is in charedi communities.
Is your argument that it is OK for Kollel guys to steal because non-frum people also steal?
Interesting argument
Of course not. Is your argument that no one should learn in kollel because some do?
Your comment touches on the heart of מום שבך אל תאמר לחברך. What exactly is the problem? A third party is allowed but not you; what's the difference?
(I'm not implying either way as far as the current debate is concerned.)
Food for thought.
The question was where is the mesorah for this? Neither of these approaches existed in Eastern Europe and are a 2nd half of the 20th century phenomenon. You can't get more "modernish" than that
I'm not sure what the problem is. Jews have understood the importance of learning torah for thousands of years. What difference does it make how many are inspired to learn for longer periods of time or even a lifetime?
What am I missing?
what's wrong is that you described this as "mesorah (loosely translated as learning from the greats of the previous generation how to conduct our lives)". They are doing the opposite of what the greats of the previous generation did who all worked for a living and learned a profession because that is what the gemara requires. You are misrepresenting the meaning of mesorah.
As for "That's fine so long as it's legal", that is even more problematic. Do you think Judaism is just about Shabbos and Kashrus? That behaving ethically is unimportant so long as what you do is legal? The whole framework of Judaism is based on the notion that we have to behave like Hashem for society to successfully function which requires the highest levels of ethics. If you like mesorah, here is one for you: the highest compliment in Lithuania was to be called "yashar" straight while being called "frum" was considered an insult.
They are not doing the opposite. They're doing what they are being taught from their rabbeim is the ideal. I'm not sure you are correct that if previous generations had access to government sponsored programs in order to stay in learning they would have rejected that. Please bring some proofs.
Rabbi Gifter "Orthodoxy is a Greek term". I'm not sure what frum or yashar has to do with any of this. Torah Judaism is what I subscribe to.
You haven't answered the question: "Where is the mesorah about not working and getting others to fund your lifestyle?"
That doesn't require a mesorah as long as it's the correct way to live. I don't need a mesorah to tell me what to eat for breakfast.
Of course the money has to come from an entity that agrees to give it to you such as the government.
"This is actually an agreement between America and the Arabs. The government here is not the decision-maker. The US demands and so it will be. The army has nothing – without America, they don’t have a single bullet to shoot"
This isn't totally wrong. Trump, Vance, and Rubio were wiling to end aid to Israel last April.
No they were not.
My son liked my quip, "Maybe Don Trumpeone made Bibi a offer he couldn't refuse."
Charlie Hall is a liar. Trump was not willing to end aid to Israel. He wanted to give aid ONLY to Israel, not Ukraine. But the Democrats said if you don't agree to give aid to Ukraine (180 billion so far), then no aid to Israel.
Trump and Republicans wanted to kill the bill that included Ukraine aid, and wanted to give the aid ONLY to Israel. Dems refused, and then claimed Trump didn't want to aid Israel.
This is disinformation at its finest.
It's a common tactic of Democrats- they insert a poison pill and then scream about how the Republicans want to kill children or something.
This is just made up. It wasn't a poison pill. It was the MAGA folks who didn't want to vote on Ukraine aid. Once It was separated out it passed with the support of 100 republicans in the house. Support for Ukraine and opposition to Russia is hardly a leftist view. It's a pretty standard conservative view, just not supported by MAGA. That is why the MAGA folks didn't want to bring it to a vote and held the Israel aid bill hostage. They knew the Ukraine bill woudl pass and it did.
Some MAGA republicans wanted to *not vote* on the Ukraine bill because they knew it would pass with significant republican support. They were willing to hold up Israel aid to avoid a *vote* on the Ukraine bill. The compromise which MAGA *didn't like* was to allow a vote on both and both passed.
The entire post centers on the Hebrew expression devarim beteilim (דברים בטלים). To present the strongest case for the opposing perspective, this phrase, rooted in the Talmud, refers to anything not connected to Torah - essentially mundane or worldly matters. These are regarded as trivial when measured against the cosmic significance of Torah, regardless of their actual importance.
For instance, consider the well-known Talmudic statement:
"I rise early, and they rise early:
I rise early for words of Torah,
and they rise early for devarim beteilim' (דברים בטלים)."
I recently explored this expression on my blog: https://www.ezrabrand.com/p/pt2-the-biblical-books-nearly-suppressed
So human life is relatively trivial, but government funding is not?
I agree that their overall beliefs and statements lack logical consistency
How r u responding to his point?
I and others arise early to treat patients and perform chesed, others arise early to run honest and ethical businesses to support their families. I infinitely prefer those early risers and myself.
Kollel yungerliet don’t rise early. They saunter in to kollel after 9… get a cup of coffee talk about devarim beteilim with otter kollelniks and eventually open a sefer….
Deciding that "life" is the study of God's law and that this will bring about redemption, and that the physical world he created is the temptation of Satan, is Jesus' claim that made him an heretic. Check out the censored passage in the Talmud about Jesus' apostasy.
I've studied and written about references to Jesus in the Talmud, but I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to here. The closest discussion in the Talmud about Jesus' apostasy involves his remarks about an innkeeper's physical appearance, as well as (elsewhere) his use of magic
"Yehoshua ben Perachyah understood the message, arose from Egypt, came to Israel, and happened to arrive at a certain inn on the way to Jerusalem. They treated him with great honor. Yehoshua ben Perachyah said: "How beautiful is this inn." Jesus, his student, said to him: "But my teacher, the eyes of the innkeeper's wife are "terutot" =?"lustful."
Yehoshua ben Perachyah said to him: "Wicked one! Do you involve yourself with regard to that matter?" He produced four hundred shofars and excommunicated him.
Jesus came before Yehoshua ben Perachyah several times asking: "Accept my repentance." (Note: Not God and the Halakha were injured by Jesus! It was a personal offence to his master!) Yehoshua ben Perachyah took no notice of him.
One day, Yehoshua ben Perachyah was reciting the Shema and Jesus came before him with the same request. Yehoshua ben Perachyah intended to accept it, and signaled him with his hand to wait until he completed his prayer (rember Avraham saying to God in the beginning of parashat Vayera: Wait for me! There are Ovdei Avoda Zara who are standing before me in the head of the sun! they have priority). Jesus misunderstood the gesture and thought: "He is rejecting me". In his frustration, he went and stood a brick upright to serve as an idol and he bowed to it (saying, that's what Yehoshua ben Perachyah made of Mitsvot, because he teached me that the true religion is belief only).
Yehoshua ben Perachyah then said to Jesus: "Repent" (He understood his mistake and this time, it's a repent to God). Jesus said to him: "This is the tradition that I received from you (after you rejected me time after time for my thoughts): Whoever sins and causes the masses to sin is not given the opportunity to repent" (in this world. The thoughts of Jesus were on his master, not on himself).
And the Master says: Jesus performed sorcery (because observing the mitzvot don't have any meaning in this world, so to go on, we have to perform sorcery), incited Jews to engage in idolatry (because God doesn't care about this world, they are Devorim Beteilim), and led Israel astray (to devote their lives on learning the Bible in monasteries and not on living physical mitzvot in this world).
Had Yehoshua ben Perachyah not caused him to despair of atonement, Jesus would not have taken the path of evil" (Bavli, Sanhedrin 107b).
I assume you're referring to this part specifically?:
"led Israel astray (to devote their lives on learning the Bible in monasteries and not on living physical mitzvot in this world)."
The parenthetical part is an explanation added by the modern translator (presumably Soncino or Steinsaltz, don't know where you copied this from) and has no basis or indication whatsoever in the actual Talmudic text. The Talmud simply means that Jesus led other Jews to abandon Judaism and halacha
It's my comment, because this is the only historical Jewish heresy of the Minim of the time of Jesus
"this is the only historical Jewish heresy of the Minim of the time of Jesus".
Actually, it's quite clear from a number of places in the Talmud that the primary heresy (מינות) it addresses is a form of theistic dualism - belief in multiple deities or שתי רשויות (not necessarily identical to the later Christian concept of a trinity, but likely related)
you can find the passage at Sefaria free online
You do realize there's a whole series of books about Jesus?
I'm very much aware, yes. I've read many of them, especially the one by Flusser
I'm talking about the New Testament.
Ah. Yes, I've read those as well. But that's not really relevant here, as the OP specifically wrote: "Check out the censored passage in the Talmud about Jesus' apostasy"
lol…magic?
The Gemara, including the censured version, says כִּישֵּׁף, a term we know from Chumash. According to Ramban this is literal, according to Rambam it is sleight of the hand. Either way, it is prohibited and punishable by death, as in מְכַשֵּׁפָה לֹא תְחַיֶּה" (שמות כב, יז).
The Torah is our life. Therefore, for everything that happens in our lives, we must respond according to the Torah's opinion, "Be holy." See the Ramban's commentary on this command in Vayikra, chapter 19, verse 2 and Devarim chap. 6 verse 18 'veAsita haTov vehayashar". In order to know what the Torah's opinion is for the specific case that happens to us in life, we must meditate on the Torah day and night. Therefore, when someone says: The problem of the abductees is idle talk, the interpretation is: This does not belong to our lives.
Halevi says what the political leadership should have said in announcing the deal. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-chief-halevis-resignation-letter-oct-7-failure-will-remain-with-me-for-the-rest-of-my-life/
The IDF was able to rise from an extremely difficult starting point and wage an intense campaign for over a year and three months across seven different fronts. The military achievements of the IDF have altered the Middle East.
The IDF inflicted severe damage on Hamas’s military wing, created the conditions for the return of hostages, dealt an unprecedented blow to Hezbollah, and significantly weakened Iran and its regional activities.
The IDF continues to protect the residents of the Golan Heights from within the Syrian buffer zone and has successfully dismantled most of the Syrian army’s capabilities. In the West Bank, the IDF operates effectively every day and night in counterterrorism missions.
These achievements far exceed any goal discussed with the political leadership regarding warfare in each of these arenas, and their significance is even greater given the interconnected nature of these fronts.
These achievements, first and foremost, belong to the IDF’s commanders and soldiers — my subordinates. IDF troops, both in active duty and reserves, from all sectors of Israeli society, stood up to fight this just war, fought with bravery and sacrifice, and emerged victorious in every encounter with the enemy.
I would think that given that the Oral Torah says both that redeeming the captive is one of the greatest mitsvot of all, and that it is conditional on the price not being too high, rabbonim would be arguing over the deal. I suppose I was wrong.