Rabbis Reissman and Deutsch's answers demonstrate an important generational shift among Black Hat Yeshivishe Jews of the Diaspora.
Black Hat Yeshivishe of Rabbi Reissman's generation primarily identify with other Black Hat Yeshivishe, but nevertheless see themselves as part of Clal Yisroel.
Rav Deutch's generation's SOLE identification is with other Black Hat Yeshivishe -- and DO NOT see themselves as part of Clal Yisroel.
Rather, they have divorced the rest of Clal Yisroel, both emotionally and practically.
When Rav Deutsch spoke of "Clal Yisroel" his only thought (both emotional and intellectual) was of the Black Hat Yeshivishe.
Rav Deutch is giving over the perspective of his Rabbeim which include his Rabbeim from Ponovezh and Brisk. Which have the most Yeshivishe elements that you are speaking about.
His hashkofos were primarily formed by American Roshei Yeshiva (Rav Pam, etc) rather than Brisk and Ponovezh.
American Black Hat Yeshivishe hashkofa of Rav Deutch's generation and younger reflects EY Hareidi hashkofa (the world revolves around us haredim and no one else matters).
And than there is the early Ponovezh of The Ponovezher Rav and Rav Shmuel Rozovsky which were much more Zionist leaning than the later Ponovezh of Rav Shach.
When Rav Shlomo Heiman Z”L taught at MTV it was a community school with a broad array of students from different backgrounds. There is a clip of him at Camp Mesivta and in the same clip (not the one out up by a known “Gedolim” photographer, which was “elucidated”) you’ll see a “Zionist” flag being flown and bochurim taking rifle shooting lessons.
"the most acute gezerah that the residents of Israel are facing is the need to raise money for the yeshivos and struggle against the draft"
There was a time when גזירה actually meant something. As in גזֵירות תַ"ח–תָ"ט. Today when one subsidy (meant to get women into the workforce, not to keep men out of it) is suspended, it's a גזירה. Then again, the accolade גאון also once meant something. Today it means someone who overuses the word גזירה.
I live in Jerusalem ... we've been here since aliya in Sept 2022. I been attending a shiur at Nitzanim for a number of months, and at least 2 of the lecturers, both Rabbis, have clearly stated, WITH citations and noted opinions, that the Haredi position, from a halachic perspective DOESN'T HOLD WATER, ESPECIALLY in a milchemet mitzvah, an obligatory war.
My wife and I each have family that have served and have been serving (some for LONG periods), one having come back from outside the country to serve.
If the Haredim don't want to serve, don't recognize or accept the existence of the Israeli gov't, then perhaps ALL the benefits they receive should be terminated.
They cannot have it both ways. Either your part of (klal) Yisrael, or you're not. It's not a Chinese menu scenario.
In today's world, you can't live anywhere without getting "benefits." For example, charedim benefit from IDF protection no matter what they want, and the IDF can't stop protecting them without putting us all at risk.
In general, no one gets to opt out of being a citizen. Nor should they.
It's all about incentives. If you give soldiers enough benefits (conquered land, good salaries, etc.), and stop giving benefits to people who don't serve, then the story would be different.
In part yes. On the other hand, they are paying taxes. So, really, everyone should be pushing for very low taxes so nobody get subsidies (nor yeshivot, nor universities). But the chiloni / leumi world is not willing to do push for this.
Deutsch is what we call a "shanda." Nothing has changed? They shouldn't feel upset ? That they need to fight the draft is their biggest concern? This man is not a rabbi, this man is an insult to the thousands of years of jewish history/suffering that he can sit there and say this lashon hara.
That he said his "people" should not be so upset? So upset? The entirely of the Jewish world has felt every moment of the every day since October 7, 2023. THE ENTIRE JEWISH WORLD IS UPSET ANGRY FURIOUS!
The IDF needs soldiers to continue the fight to prevent Jewish genocide. He thinks it is the obligation of someone else's son to prevent the slaughter of Jews? He is siding with the cowards. Yes they are COWARDS every last one of them who won't serve.
They want to say prayers? They think this is it? They think that is the reason israel has been able to push back the forces of evil? These people are ridiculous. israel is able to accomplish her goals because the military is run by people who can think, the right weapons, and men with backbones.
You want to say prayers? You think this is the end all and be all of what a Jew does in self defense? Take a siddur, tallit, tefillin into the battlefield then. Kill our enemies before they come for our babies. That is what real men do.
I agree there is a significant component of cowardice because they KNOW thier “Torah” won’t protect them in battle. R. Slifkin disagreed with me a few months ago that there is a component of cowardice in their refusal, but I think it’s self evident there is.
The fact that Mr. Deutsch (he's most certainly not a Rav despite what his Torah scholarship may be) can stand up at an Agudah convention and make these statements is so beyond the pale of being repulsive that there are no words.
"If you see someone collapsing under a heavy burden, you don’t go and pick up a rock to feel what it’s like - you go and help them with the burden!" Rashi on Sh'mot 23:5: ומדרשו כן דרשו רבותינו: כי תראה וחדלת, פעמים שאתה חודל ופעמים שאתה עוזר. הא כיצד, זקן ואינו לפי כבודו, וחדלת. That's the mindset of the Haredim. Military service is manual labor and so is beneath them.
ירידת הדורות is a real thing. While past generations of frum Jews may have had fewer years of yeshiva learning, they rarely suffered from the ethical numbness and lack of compassion for עם ישראל that afflicts Deutsch and his contemporaries. Torah learning is many things, but for too many in this generation, it has become a closed circle and an increasingly meaningless and self-referential performance.
"Rabban Gamaliel the son of Rabbi Judah Hanasi said: excellent is the study of the Torah when combined with a worldly occupation, for toil in them both keeps sin out of one’s mind; But [study of the] Torah which is not combined with a worldly occupation, in the end comes to be neglected and becomes the cause of sin."
Chazal already said that not working is bad for oneself. We can see their wisdom now more than ever.
It's even worse; the MC seemed to belittle Rabbi Reisman's comments, and say "yes that's individuals who are suffering, but we're talking about Clal Yisrael" (in other words, yes, non-Hareidim may be suffering in all sorts of ways from the war, and that's a shame, but we're not going to worry too much about that, as we care about the Hareidi world, and we're doing just fine... let's move on to Shidduchim..).
By the way, did they even recite Tehillim at the start of the conference?
Rabbi Deutschs answer was quite shocking to me. He is someone very well regarded in Lakewood and someone who is known to be a nosei b'ol in others pain and on the forefront of mental health issues in Lakewood. I wonder if he feels some internal or external pressure to toe the party line as extreme as he can to allow breathing room for some of his other ideas.
I was shocked as well. I know rabbi deutsch personally, and he's generally a genuinely empathetic person, even with people who are extremely far from his hashkafa.
Relistening to it, I think he genuinely believes that the gedolim are focusing on the goyish and therefore we have to as well. We also seems to be coming about anxiety, not nosei b'ol. Still a shocking answer, but I imagine if asked for clarification he would definitely revise what was said.
Your definitions dovetail nicely. By the way, my husband's wonderful great-aunt, z"l, the tzaddeket Dorothy Baum Weiner, was deeply shocked to hear that contemporary Aguda was not Zionist. Her father, her uncles, and all their friends had been "Agudas Yisrael" back in the day, and they all considered themselves Zionists.
The yekkes in the Aguda were definitely not Zionists. Mostly anti. The Polish chassidim in Aguda, as well as certain Galician and Austria-Hungarian groups were Zionist supporters and supported the establishment of a State as early as the Peel Commission
Such a large percent of people identify as Jews and do not keep the Torah. Is it so off the wall that some zionistic people might be part of a non-zionistic organization?
Sorry. In any case, new words are coined all the time. I thought "zionistic" means "people who are like zionists", and I used it because the initial commenter said that those people "consider themselves Zionists" which does not confirm whether they actually are or not.
And so, by your correction, I rephrase my responses to that comment:
Such a large percent of people identify as Jews and do not keep the Torah. Is it so off the wall that some people who consider themselves zionists might be part of an organization which is not zionist?
I was immediately disturbed by the unconventional way with which both Rabbonim began to answer the sheila. In every single other case, especially controversial ones, you start off with the basic a halacha. Are we talking about a Mitzvah Deorisah, DeRabbanon, a Chiuv, a Kiomis, mammash an isur, etc. Then, having given the foundation, then you can apply the halacha HaMa'eseh which might for various reasons to be machmir or meikel.
Let's take the example of a sheila that If someone asked whether they could stop off at a night time road cafe to buy a black coffee from a machine if they were feeling tired and felt in danger. The Rabbonim would start with the basic halacha, then ask if there was perhaps somewhere to stop and sleep it off or whether it was a lonely road with nowhere to stop. Then go into the issue of whether the coffee machine also supplied other drinks which could potentially be non-kosher.
But it seems strange to start with negative assumptions about the kavana of the one asking and the detailed safekim.
Regarding Rabbi Reisman's comparison with the Kavod of a Shul. The isur of entering a shul simply to escape the harsh weather, whether rain, snow or heat of the sun, thus showing a lack of kavod to the Beis HaKaneses (Mesechtas Megillah 28b, Shulchan Aruch 151:1), if my understanding is correct, is based on the premise that there are other places where one can find shelter. Therefore, not even the "patent" of sitting and learning would help. (See 5 Shar Ha’tzyion 2).
However, as a practical example, say it was extremely hot (let's say 38 degrees celsius) which would make it acutely uncomfortable to learn at home (without a mazgan) and there really was nowhere else to go, then you could sit and learn in an airconditioned shul, to escape the heat. For sure, if one wasn't feeling well due to the cold or heat and had nowhere else to go, then one could seek refuge in a shul. We are not even talking about Pikuach Nefesh. Notice the emphasis on "nowhere else to go".
So, I would respectfully argue the acute feeling of discomfort in Chutz LaAretz (and again, not even to the stage of Pikuach Nefesh which would turn it into a chiuv, not just mutar), and literally having no other place to go except Israel , which would give you immediate citizenship and assistance, with respect to the Rav, would seem not to be analogous to the halacha of a shul.
Thank G-d for Rabbi Reissman and others like him whose חינוך has not failed them. Unfortunately, there are those who take their years of study (and the community's investments in them) and make יהדות into a cult of witches and warlocks, murmuring spells and performing obscurantist rites.
האגודה הישנה כל תהלתה ותפארתה היא בהד' מינים השונים בהקברטט שלה, ואילו ה"אגודה" החדשה יודעת רק ממין אחד, ולא חלה ולא מרגישה כלל, כי זהו הנגוד הגמור מהאגודה הישנה
Perhaps R Deutsch and those who share his viewpoint should take a trip to Machaneh Shurah and do some Chesed financially and on the Bein Adam LChavero level on the ground in Israel before they have Asifos decrying the purportedly evil decree about the draft There is no shortage of Chesed that can be done on the ground right now in Israel
Rabbis Reissman and Deutsch's answers demonstrate an important generational shift among Black Hat Yeshivishe Jews of the Diaspora.
Black Hat Yeshivishe of Rabbi Reissman's generation primarily identify with other Black Hat Yeshivishe, but nevertheless see themselves as part of Clal Yisroel.
Rav Deutch's generation's SOLE identification is with other Black Hat Yeshivishe -- and DO NOT see themselves as part of Clal Yisroel.
Rather, they have divorced the rest of Clal Yisroel, both emotionally and practically.
When Rav Deutsch spoke of "Clal Yisroel" his only thought (both emotional and intellectual) was of the Black Hat Yeshivishe.
Everyone else is out of mind.
I don't think its conscious. It's the automatic reaction, but if stopped and pressed, they'd reconsider. But subconsciously I think you are correct.
Rav Deutch is giving over the perspective of his Rabbeim which include his Rabbeim from Ponovezh and Brisk. Which have the most Yeshivishe elements that you are speaking about.
Agreed.
Rav Reissman primarily learned in America.
His hashkofos were primarily formed by American Roshei Yeshiva (Rav Pam, etc) rather than Brisk and Ponovezh.
American Black Hat Yeshivishe hashkofa of Rav Deutch's generation and younger reflects EY Hareidi hashkofa (the world revolves around us haredim and no one else matters).
ירידת הדורות!
My brother was a classmate of R' Reissman. I can attest to what you said.
Then those rabbis of those yeshivot are evil as well.
And than there is the early Ponovezh of The Ponovezher Rav and Rav Shmuel Rozovsky which were much more Zionist leaning than the later Ponovezh of Rav Shach.
I am really curious about the evolution of extremist fringe ideas becoming mainstream in the frum society.
Torah Vdas stayed the way it always was, at one point it was mainstream - R Shlomo Heiman taught there.
Yet now, they now they are considered far left, as evident from this discourse.
R Reisman is expressing an opinion that only a minority in the frum community would express.
But just a few decades ago was mainstream, basic way of thinking.
And R Deutch is saying regular current yeshivishe talking points of Today, that yesteryears average frum person would associate with radical jihad.
When did Meah Shearim and Brisk - both radical fringe groups, become so enmeshed in lakewood frum society.
When Rav Shlomo Heiman Z”L taught at MTV it was a community school with a broad array of students from different backgrounds. There is a clip of him at Camp Mesivta and in the same clip (not the one out up by a known “Gedolim” photographer, which was “elucidated”) you’ll see a “Zionist” flag being flown and bochurim taking rifle shooting lessons.
"the most acute gezerah that the residents of Israel are facing is the need to raise money for the yeshivos and struggle against the draft"
There was a time when גזירה actually meant something. As in גזֵירות תַ"ח–תָ"ט. Today when one subsidy (meant to get women into the workforce, not to keep men out of it) is suspended, it's a גזירה. Then again, the accolade גאון also once meant something. Today it means someone who overuses the word גזירה.
A very good point you make there about the subsidy. Of course, they'd never admit that they're pushing women into the workforce.
They admit it alright.
"יצחק גולדקנופף ...הזהיר כי הגזירה תוביל לתוצאה שנשים חרדיות יעזבו את שוק העבודה וכי הנזק הוא לא רק לציבור החרדי אלא גם לדתי לאומי. "
https://www.kikar.co.il/interviews/396078
Of course, we all know it's not about getting Charedi women into the workforce, but keeping men out of it.
sharp :)
See the Chofetz Chaim on this weeks parshah (VaYishlach).
I live in Jerusalem ... we've been here since aliya in Sept 2022. I been attending a shiur at Nitzanim for a number of months, and at least 2 of the lecturers, both Rabbis, have clearly stated, WITH citations and noted opinions, that the Haredi position, from a halachic perspective DOESN'T HOLD WATER, ESPECIALLY in a milchemet mitzvah, an obligatory war.
My wife and I each have family that have served and have been serving (some for LONG periods), one having come back from outside the country to serve.
If the Haredim don't want to serve, don't recognize or accept the existence of the Israeli gov't, then perhaps ALL the benefits they receive should be terminated.
They cannot have it both ways. Either your part of (klal) Yisrael, or you're not. It's not a Chinese menu scenario.
In today's world, you can't live anywhere without getting "benefits." For example, charedim benefit from IDF protection no matter what they want, and the IDF can't stop protecting them without putting us all at risk.
In general, no one gets to opt out of being a citizen. Nor should they.
Which is why purists like Moshe Ber Beck held that is was forbidden (not just chazer treif forbidden, but cardinally forbidden) to live in ארץ ישראל.
Why would he take that position?
It's all about incentives. If you give soldiers enough benefits (conquered land, good salaries, etc.), and stop giving benefits to people who don't serve, then the story would be different.
In part yes. On the other hand, they are paying taxes. So, really, everyone should be pushing for very low taxes so nobody get subsidies (nor yeshivot, nor universities). But the chiloni / leumi world is not willing to do push for this.
Deutsch is what we call a "shanda." Nothing has changed? They shouldn't feel upset ? That they need to fight the draft is their biggest concern? This man is not a rabbi, this man is an insult to the thousands of years of jewish history/suffering that he can sit there and say this lashon hara.
That he said his "people" should not be so upset? So upset? The entirely of the Jewish world has felt every moment of the every day since October 7, 2023. THE ENTIRE JEWISH WORLD IS UPSET ANGRY FURIOUS!
The IDF needs soldiers to continue the fight to prevent Jewish genocide. He thinks it is the obligation of someone else's son to prevent the slaughter of Jews? He is siding with the cowards. Yes they are COWARDS every last one of them who won't serve.
They want to say prayers? They think this is it? They think that is the reason israel has been able to push back the forces of evil? These people are ridiculous. israel is able to accomplish her goals because the military is run by people who can think, the right weapons, and men with backbones.
You want to say prayers? You think this is the end all and be all of what a Jew does in self defense? Take a siddur, tallit, tefillin into the battlefield then. Kill our enemies before they come for our babies. That is what real men do.
I agree there is a significant component of cowardice because they KNOW thier “Torah” won’t protect them in battle. R. Slifkin disagreed with me a few months ago that there is a component of cowardice in their refusal, but I think it’s self evident there is.
The fact that Mr. Deutsch (he's most certainly not a Rav despite what his Torah scholarship may be) can stand up at an Agudah convention and make these statements is so beyond the pale of being repulsive that there are no words.
Still, a lot of dati leumi people give kabod to these charedi rabbis 🤷♂️ Stockholm syndrome they call it.
"If you see someone collapsing under a heavy burden, you don’t go and pick up a rock to feel what it’s like - you go and help them with the burden!" Rashi on Sh'mot 23:5: ומדרשו כן דרשו רבותינו: כי תראה וחדלת, פעמים שאתה חודל ופעמים שאתה עוזר. הא כיצד, זקן ואינו לפי כבודו, וחדלת. That's the mindset of the Haredim. Military service is manual labor and so is beneath them.
How astute. You don't even know what you are arguing against.
“without contradicting anything [...] said"
=I disagree with such solipsistic drivel, but I'm not going to actively contract him.
ירידת הדורות is a real thing. While past generations of frum Jews may have had fewer years of yeshiva learning, they rarely suffered from the ethical numbness and lack of compassion for עם ישראל that afflicts Deutsch and his contemporaries. Torah learning is many things, but for too many in this generation, it has become a closed circle and an increasingly meaningless and self-referential performance.
"Rabban Gamaliel the son of Rabbi Judah Hanasi said: excellent is the study of the Torah when combined with a worldly occupation, for toil in them both keeps sin out of one’s mind; But [study of the] Torah which is not combined with a worldly occupation, in the end comes to be neglected and becomes the cause of sin."
Chazal already said that not working is bad for oneself. We can see their wisdom now more than ever.
It's even worse; the MC seemed to belittle Rabbi Reisman's comments, and say "yes that's individuals who are suffering, but we're talking about Clal Yisrael" (in other words, yes, non-Hareidim may be suffering in all sorts of ways from the war, and that's a shame, but we're not going to worry too much about that, as we care about the Hareidi world, and we're doing just fine... let's move on to Shidduchim..).
By the way, did they even recite Tehillim at the start of the conference?
Yup. That's what is expected, though, not a surprise.
Rabbi Deutschs answer was quite shocking to me. He is someone very well regarded in Lakewood and someone who is known to be a nosei b'ol in others pain and on the forefront of mental health issues in Lakewood. I wonder if he feels some internal or external pressure to toe the party line as extreme as he can to allow breathing room for some of his other ideas.
I was shocked as well. I know rabbi deutsch personally, and he's generally a genuinely empathetic person, even with people who are extremely far from his hashkafa.
Relistening to it, I think he genuinely believes that the gedolim are focusing on the goyish and therefore we have to as well. We also seems to be coming about anxiety, not nosei b'ol. Still a shocking answer, but I imagine if asked for clarification he would definitely revise what was said.
Like forgetting your wife's birthday or your wedding anniversary?
If asked for clarification you would definitely revise what was said.
Yes. Precisely that.
Your definitions dovetail nicely. By the way, my husband's wonderful great-aunt, z"l, the tzaddeket Dorothy Baum Weiner, was deeply shocked to hear that contemporary Aguda was not Zionist. Her father, her uncles, and all their friends had been "Agudas Yisrael" back in the day, and they all considered themselves Zionists.
Of course, this was Chicago.
The Agudah in general was very different back then. A lot of yekkes, for example.
Rav Soloveitchik z'tz'l was very active in Agudath Israel of America at one point.
But he wasn't exactly Zionist at the time. But yes, lines were much different.
Defining Zionist too narrowly has been a problem for quite a while now.
The yekkes in the Aguda were definitely not Zionists. Mostly anti. The Polish chassidim in Aguda, as well as certain Galician and Austria-Hungarian groups were Zionist supporters and supported the establishment of a State as early as the Peel Commission
Such a large percent of people identify as Jews and do not keep the Torah. Is it so off the wall that some zionistic people might be part of a non-zionistic organization?
"Zionistic" is not a word.
It is in the Merriam-Webster dictionary.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zionistic
Sorry. In any case, new words are coined all the time. I thought "zionistic" means "people who are like zionists", and I used it because the initial commenter said that those people "consider themselves Zionists" which does not confirm whether they actually are or not.
And so, by your correction, I rephrase my responses to that comment:
Such a large percent of people identify as Jews and do not keep the Torah. Is it so off the wall that some people who consider themselves zionists might be part of an organization which is not zionist?
I was immediately disturbed by the unconventional way with which both Rabbonim began to answer the sheila. In every single other case, especially controversial ones, you start off with the basic a halacha. Are we talking about a Mitzvah Deorisah, DeRabbanon, a Chiuv, a Kiomis, mammash an isur, etc. Then, having given the foundation, then you can apply the halacha HaMa'eseh which might for various reasons to be machmir or meikel.
Let's take the example of a sheila that If someone asked whether they could stop off at a night time road cafe to buy a black coffee from a machine if they were feeling tired and felt in danger. The Rabbonim would start with the basic halacha, then ask if there was perhaps somewhere to stop and sleep it off or whether it was a lonely road with nowhere to stop. Then go into the issue of whether the coffee machine also supplied other drinks which could potentially be non-kosher.
But it seems strange to start with negative assumptions about the kavana of the one asking and the detailed safekim.
Regarding Rabbi Reisman's comparison with the Kavod of a Shul. The isur of entering a shul simply to escape the harsh weather, whether rain, snow or heat of the sun, thus showing a lack of kavod to the Beis HaKaneses (Mesechtas Megillah 28b, Shulchan Aruch 151:1), if my understanding is correct, is based on the premise that there are other places where one can find shelter. Therefore, not even the "patent" of sitting and learning would help. (See 5 Shar Ha’tzyion 2).
However, as a practical example, say it was extremely hot (let's say 38 degrees celsius) which would make it acutely uncomfortable to learn at home (without a mazgan) and there really was nowhere else to go, then you could sit and learn in an airconditioned shul, to escape the heat. For sure, if one wasn't feeling well due to the cold or heat and had nowhere else to go, then one could seek refuge in a shul. We are not even talking about Pikuach Nefesh. Notice the emphasis on "nowhere else to go".
So, I would respectfully argue the acute feeling of discomfort in Chutz LaAretz (and again, not even to the stage of Pikuach Nefesh which would turn it into a chiuv, not just mutar), and literally having no other place to go except Israel , which would give you immediate citizenship and assistance, with respect to the Rav, would seem not to be analogous to the halacha of a shul.
You were correct in calling their philosophy Evil….
Thank G-d for Rabbi Reissman and others like him whose חינוך has not failed them. Unfortunately, there are those who take their years of study (and the community's investments in them) and make יהדות into a cult of witches and warlocks, murmuring spells and performing obscurantist rites.
That last sentence is cruelly ironic, yet sadly justified.
But ר' עמיאל beat him by a century:
האגודה הישנה כל תהלתה ותפארתה היא בהד' מינים השונים בהקברטט שלה, ואילו ה"אגודה" החדשה יודעת רק ממין אחד, ולא חלה ולא מרגישה כלל, כי זהו הנגוד הגמור מהאגודה הישנה
Perhaps R Deutsch and those who share his viewpoint should take a trip to Machaneh Shurah and do some Chesed financially and on the Bein Adam LChavero level on the ground in Israel before they have Asifos decrying the purportedly evil decree about the draft There is no shortage of Chesed that can be done on the ground right now in Israel