150 Comments
User's avatar
Ash's avatar

Hishtadlus to solve the contradictions between Torah and Science - Chareidim offload it to someone else (named Nosson or Natan).

Expand full comment
Eric Polly's avatar

Science reveals the mechanics of the observable universe, it is natural to want to understand how things work. Perhaps the Creator of the miraculous and intricate universe is disappointed that some of his creations do not make an effort to understand the beauty of it all? He is like "Why did I even bother to create all of this when they are not curious about how it works!". How many of his creations ever look up at the cosmos and marvel at its beauty and complexity?

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

True!

Expand full comment
James Nicholson's avatar

A similar argument is made in Shabbat 75a https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.75a.4?lang=bi

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

That's actually an underratedly important comment.

The charedi viewpoint is that we are here to learn Torah and understand God as He prescribes to us in His Torah. Questions like these actually don't bother us as much, because (a) we know there are answers and (b) we aren't confident to know that we will know the right answers. The only thing we are and can be confident about is the truth of the Torah and the halachos we delve into to understand the mind of the Creator. Science, while it has it's place in avoda, especially when discussing ahavas Hashem as the Rambam discusses, is not the main way we get to know God. We can gaze at the beauty of evolution or the theory of relativity or the incredible complexity of the mitochondria in the bathroom because that isn't learning His will and His essence, it is just a shell. So we leave it to those who have less appreciation for Torah and think they are the height of mankind for having a "knowledge" of the shell, but leaving their "trust" of the intricate details of Hashem's word to the "rabbis" who they hardly respect. The rabbis do the opposite - the love and cherish every word of the gemara and spend hours becoming intimate with its nuances, while the questions of the shell, they leave it to the scientists.

And no, there's nothing wrong with being a scientist, and in fact Jewish scientists are commendable for many, many reasons, but who is higher on the totem pole in Judaism? It's not and shouldn't be an insult to be lower on the totem pole; we all have different roles, but flipping the script and losing sight of what's really important in life is very easy to do, which is why we have the rabbis leading the way for anyone who's interested.

Expand full comment
Saul Katz's avatar

Which is why we have the rabbis leading the way

You hit the nail on the head. Which Rabbis?

The problem is your Rabbis want people to live off others, while real honest Rabbis want everyone to do his own histadlus, and go shoulder to shoulder with the rest of K'lal Yisroel

Expand full comment
Yaacov Bar-Chaiim's avatar

"honest"? Please. Where's at least your elu v'elu?

Expand full comment
Saul Katz's avatar

ELU V'ELU ??

Is where one Rav says you have to hold 2 days yom tov in Israel, and another says one day is also fine.

However, if one says you are allowed to steal from others, and the other says it is not allowed you have to work for your money. Exactly what kind of Elu V'elu is that? One is a crook and the other is an honest person.

Expand full comment
Yaacov Bar-Chaiim's avatar

gocha. You know better than 1000's of תלמידי חכמים, who study יומם ולילה. Not just a different שיטה but explicit moral authority. No wonder your culture runs after army service. Militant superiority complex drives you.

Expand full comment
Janon3's avatar

Appeal to Authority Fallacy.

Expand full comment
Saul Katz's avatar

No My Friend. it is indeed so sad to see 1,000 Talmdei Chachmem using Hashem Torah to hoodwink the rest of "Hashems People"

Try to Imagine how Hashem feels?

These people are using my Holy Torah "Anu Nafshe Kashvis Yehuvis" I put my own-self in the Torah, and they use it to become Draft Dodgers, getting out not protect MY very own land.

Expand full comment
Ephraim's avatar

"we all have different roles"

Who's role is it to do electioneering and campaigning for subsidies, grants and discounts?

Expand full comment
Weaver's avatar

Practically speaking, that's mostly true, but it's not so simple. There is a line of thought popularized by the Ishbitzer Rebbe, R' Tzadok, and others that Hashem created two Books, Nature and Torah, and they reveal and compliment each other. The Nefesh HaChaim even compares the Earth to the "body" of Hashem. Thus physical reality need not contradict ruchniyus, but is rather a reflection of it. Hashem didn't "mess up" when He created teva!

Those who know how to delve into this might find it more worthwhile than trying to spend hours trying to figure out who said what braisa. Hence דָּבָר גָּדוֹל" — מַעֲשֵׂה מֶרְכָּבָה. דָּבָר קָטָן — הֲוָיוֹת דְּאַבָּיֵי וְרָבָא".

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

I agree, but I don't think they were talking about evolution and atoms which were only revealed to mankind later; they are discussing the way nature looks to the naked eye which does compliment the spiritual realm. I'm sure these other aspects of modern science have their place as well in that picture but I'm not sure how.

But either way, like you said that's for the really giant people like the Gr'a to figure out. For simple people like me, science is purely about seeing His majesty, while Torah is seeing His actual will.

Expand full comment
Ephraim's avatar

"the totem pole in Judaism?"

That doesn't make sense.

Expand full comment
Ephraim's avatar

"Science, while it has it's place in avoda, especially when discussing ahavas Hashem as the Rambam discusses, is not the main way we get to know God.""

What about science's place in הלכה and keeping us from dying prematurely?

Expand full comment
Ephraim's avatar

"The charedi viewpoint is that we are here to learn Torah and understand God as He prescribes to us in His Torah."

What about מצוות?

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

What about 'em?

Expand full comment
Ephraim's avatar

"mitochondria in the bathroom"

That doesn't make sense.

Expand full comment
Ezra N's avatar

It makes a lot of sense, when we release ourselves, some cells of the intestinal epithelium are detached and mixed with our waste. So there are effectively mitochondria in the bathroom.

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

Hahaha

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

Haha

Expand full comment
Avraham marcus's avatar

He means youre allowed to study the mitichondria in the bathroom

Expand full comment
Ash's avatar

The slight issue is that it leads to less respect for Torah, not more.

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

True, and I agree that at some point people should take their heads out of the sand, but only after building a solid foundation of what Torah is. The amount of people I know who's Judaism has failed them because of science and other worldly intellectualisms are really coming from a weak foundation of what Torah can be. I feel like the MO community feel like everything is equal and it really messes people up. Science has its place, but Torah is our connection to Him and is what really matters, in a whole different way that isn't even in the same league!

Expand full comment
Bpsb's avatar

How do you KNOW that those people failed because of weak foundations?

Maybe they just have just been exposed to other areas of knowledge and now truly believe otherwise?

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

I'm talking about people that are now off the derech completely, some in practice, some just in their beliefs. If that's not a failure by you, that's a different story.

Expand full comment
Bpsb's avatar

I understood that.

But just because they are OTD does not necessarily mean they had weak foundations. They might have been convinced by anti-religious claims.

Expand full comment
Ash's avatar

You didn't answer the question. I know people with deep knowledge of Torah who went off due to science questions

Expand full comment
Ephraim's avatar

"Hishtadlus for war"

War if not a מצוה in itself, is wrapped up with many מצות.

And after the רמב"ם paskens:

וכל הנלחם בכל ליבו בלא פחד, ותהיה כוונתו לקדש את השם בלבד--מובטח לו שלא ימצא נזק ולא תגיעו רעה, ויבנה לו בית נכון בישראל, ויזכה לו ולבניו עד עולם, ויזכה לחיי העולם הבא

...it's preposterous to denigrate war and its accompanying מצות as mere השתדלות.

And then there's the description the גמרא of an ideal soldier:

עדינו העצני - כשהיה יושב ועוסק בתורה היה מעדן עצמו כתולעת, ובשעה שיוצא למלחמה היה מקשה עצמו כעץ

Does this sound like mere השתדלות?

Expand full comment
Shaul's avatar

The Rambam and the sages of the Talmud lived in times when there was no sovereign Jewish state. Consequently, their perspectives on war, maintaining an army, and related matters were shaped by mystical and midrashic interpretations rather than practical governance. To understand how things truly worked, look to the Tanach. There, you won't find yeshivas or the notion of Torah study providing "divine protection." Instead, wars were fought conventionally. For example, David asks God whether he should attack the Philistines, receives a positive response, and then leads his men into battle. He doesn't request Torah study on his behalf, nor does he seek blessings or amulets from prophets.

Expand full comment
Y G's avatar

Yes. Those are helpful because it works within that framework as well

Expand full comment
dov's avatar

I think this is ur most powerful post on the topic yet.

It's concise but hits hard and has a surprising hook: u used to be on the opposite side of this argument! 😅

Expand full comment
Ezra N's avatar

A Rabbi of mine years ago, talking about non Halachic movements within Judaism, called them convenience Judaism. He said that we should be honest enough, that if we want to eat pig, let's assume our transgression and not try and bend the Torah and thousands of Jewish tradition to have fun with shikses and eat sea bugs feeling good about ourselves.

Isn't that precisely what some are doing in the Charedi society in Israel? Isn't that also harmful, albeit in a different way, to Judaism and the Jewish people?

I suggest Charedi and reform leaders meet, maybe they can figure out something together?

Expand full comment
Avraham marcus's avatar

Big difference. Reform isnt bound by the halachik system. Neither do they believe in Torah Misinai and Torah Shebaal Peh.

Expand full comment
Ezra N's avatar

The behaviour of the Charedi community towards the defense of the state is not only not based on Torah, but runs contrary to Torah. No-one in the observant world takes reform seriously, it is obvious. But black hated guys with big peot and so on, of course we take them seriously. After all, how could they be bending the Torah and the Halachic system to fit their needs and will, at the expense of other Jews?

You're right, big difference, the Charedi deception is much, much worse.

Expand full comment
Avraham marcus's avatar

Torah values yes, halacha not necessarily.

Expand full comment
Jerry Steinfeld's avatar

Thank you.

Expand full comment
Y G's avatar

The comment that wins: Torah can save us from Iran no problem, but the draft? No chance - protest in the streets! Tustus Lo Ya'avor!

Expand full comment
Ephraim's avatar

Not bad. A link that summarizes itself.

But does תורה protect from גזירת המעונות?

Expand full comment
Aron T's avatar

You conveniently forgot one (and there are other similar ones):

Hishtadlus for joining the workforce: Charedim highly prefer to work in insulated environments, even at the cost of earning less, in order to not have to mix with cultures that they feel are harmful and/or antagonistic to their way of life

Expand full comment
test's avatar

How do you know? Maybe their job options in non insulated environments is limited due to their characteristics?

Expand full comment
Aron T's avatar

I know from personal experience

Expand full comment
test's avatar

How? I'm not disputing the facts, I'm disputing the reason. In any event, you can't know for the whole of chareididom.

Expand full comment
Aron T's avatar

It never makes sense to me to speak for the whole of chareidim as one single entity where everyone thinks and does the same thing. So yeah, I'll grant you that point.

My point is just that there is a significant segment that lives with this belief, and avoids army service for the same reason which is consistent and not a contradiction as the author is suggesting.

Expand full comment
test's avatar

There is a difference between no work and some work.

Expand full comment
Nachum's avatar

Yeah, back when the whole contretemps erupted I asked my Mancunian sister-in-law if she knew this "Nosson Slifkin". "Oh, Nati?" she asked. (I think she was your babysitter or something.) "Well, if he called himself that..."

More to the point: If we're talking individually, then most of us "offload" quite a few of those things: We're not all doctors or soldiers and so on. (Of course we *go* to doctors, lock our doors, vote, and so on.) If we're talking communally, then you have a very good point. To take one: We all pay taxes, some of which comes back to us as benefits. But if a community chooses not to work, it's going to pay a lot less taxes, while at the same time, ironically, it will require *more* government benefits. And so on.

The other day I read an article in The Atlantic about Israel at war. It was pro-Israel- we take what we can these days- but at one point the author, visiting Israel, mentioned that one change he saw was that dati leumi friends and family of his were suddenly a lot less tolerant of charedim than they may once have been. He cited one such person summing it up with one word: "Cowards." And looking back at what I just wrote above, I suddenly think that that may be one big thing at the root of all this: No one wants to die, of course. No one dies by taking government benefits or voting; people die in battle. (I still stand by my belief that at the root is a fundamental communal disconnect from anything outside of their narrow circle.)

Now, that makes sense. Again, no one wants to die, no one wants their child to die. There's just one little problem: 90% of Israelis have somehow risen above that. Because they have to, because we need it. Who are charedim, living here and benefiting from that, not to do so? George Patton, "Old Blood and Guts" himself, in his famous "pep talk" to his men, would tell them that they shouldn't be ashamed of being scared. Every normal human being would be, going into battle. Only a lunatic wouldn't be. (Patton was a lunatic, but that's another story.) The question, he told them, is what they do *next*. Bravery isn't a lack of fear; if one had no fear, one wouldn't be brave. Bravery is rising above it.

Expand full comment
Y G's avatar

Charedi insulation always was and will be about safety and security. But security from ideas. An orthodox rudimentary predictable system of values. AKA psychological safety. This was threatening to them even not at times of war. It's hard for us to appreciate this but we need to.

Expand full comment
Bpsb's avatar

The premise of this post is that belief is voluntary and demonstrates beautifully how ridiculous this approach is to attempt to sway Charedim to change their minds. However, many great thinkers feel that belief in a given proposition is simply the result of the evidence available to the person on the topic.

For example, no one is free to believe that they are an animal. Additionally, we are not even free to believe a proposition with CERTAINTY even if it is likely. For example, say you typically weigh between 180 and 181 lbs., you are not free to believe in the truth of the claim that you currently weigh precisely, 180.5 lbs. and not 180.3 or 180.4.

Therefore, I think that given the inclusive environment Charedim reside in, they are not choosing to believe this, they really feel that HIshtadlus in the context of war is different or some other excuse.

The impression I get when talking to Bts and those who "flipped out" is that the whatever the Gedolim say is the only way to approach the matter.

Expand full comment
Natan Slifkin's avatar

I'm inclined to agree - people just assume that this is the correct approach. But once you point the truth out to them, they ought to recognize it.

Expand full comment
David Ohsie's avatar

hahahahahahahahahanabahaha

People changing beliefs just based on a reasonable and strong argument?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Thanks for giving me my laugh for the day.

Expand full comment
Avraham marcus's avatar

But they'd say the same about you though.

Expand full comment
Ash's avatar

There's a great book called How Minds Change which goes through how people who've changed their minds on long held beliefs did so. I think you would be well served in reading that book and implementing it if you actually want to change people's minds.

Expand full comment
Y G's avatar

By the very nature of that book, groupthink and a culture of non-open-mindedness is a recipe of resisting change no matter how rational the arguments are. Charedi life is the epitome of Western tribalism. It's the definition of groupthink in the deepest sense (mate selection - shidduchim based on status).

Expand full comment
Y G's avatar

Completely agree. The average Charedi has no choice in front of him. The familial, communal, and cultural systems are set up for him not to have that choice. The cost would be too great. Not many people can pick up and leave like Natan did.

Expand full comment
Ben J's avatar

This may be one of your most important posts. You’ve highlighted a clear pattern in how hishtadlut is applied selectively, and your examples make it hard to ignore the inconsistency. The contrast between taking action for immediate needs and avoiding responsibility for national defense is striking.

That said, framing it as purely “convenient” might oversimplify the issue. After years of raising this point, perhaps it’s worth exploring why these contradictions persist and what might truly drive this worldview. Your continued effort to address this topic is important, and deeper engagement could inspire more honest reflection.

Expand full comment
Aron T's avatar

Just curious, was this comment aided by an AI chat?

Expand full comment
David Ohsie's avatar

Do you think that R Nosson Slifkin didn’t have intellectual honesty?

Expand full comment
Mark's avatar

I think he had been taught intellectually dishonest ideas and had not yet recognized the flaws in them.

Expand full comment
David Ohsie's avatar

So then it's not the case that anyone with intellectual honesty will agree with R Natan.

Expand full comment
Ash's avatar

I think intellectual honesty is based on ones priors and evaluating evidence. Even a conspiracy theorist can have intellectual honesty if he trusts Infowars more than mainstream news.

Expand full comment
Ephraim's avatar

Honest but stupid?

What about the lack of intellectual curiosity?

Expand full comment
Chana Siegel's avatar

It's not just lack of intellectual curiosity, this extends to squelching ideas because their conclusions are unacceptable, not the logic used to get there.

Expand full comment
D.apple's avatar

Here is a pet peeve. The chareidim think they are entitled to have others subsidize their lifestyle. This includes getting tax payer funds by hook or crook. It includes chareidim not doing their fair share in Israel's wars.

Expand full comment
Yehoshua Dalin's avatar

@RNS Don't go throwing stones in glass houses - you believe in offloading Israel's hishtadlus to America!

Expand full comment
Dan's avatar

Without picking sides, I would just point out they (chareidim) do not feel those other activities come together with the risk of losing ones "level of yahadus" while joining the army they feel is spiritually bad for them.

Expand full comment
Danny Eisenberg's avatar

Rabbi Slifkin,

A good point.

Do you think the original you would have been convinced by the current you if not for your personal story?

Expand full comment
Saul Katz's avatar

Rabbi Slifkin,

Happy you saw the light - some sooner some later!

Expand full comment
Chana Siegel's avatar

Oh, please. You haven't brought any sources or new material, and very few readers need you to translate those that you have. This isn't even an argument, it's begging the question again.

In spite of your very nice use of spacing, you are definitely the one who "doesn't get it".

Expand full comment