Rabbi, I was thinking that we have to have hakarat hatov to the Haredim for not going to the army. If they would, we wouldn't even have half amount of a reason to seethe about them. Where would we channel all our bitterness and frustration? Heck, we might even need to hire professional help! So next time you see a Haredi, say, "Thank you for not serving in the army so we can hate you and gripe about you 24/7!"
He just constantly barrages them with mostly twisted logic, often ignoring facts that contradicts his narrative or missing major points in an argument to disparage the minor points. He has also contradicted himself in his own articles, whilst trying to tear down a charedi rabbi, and has u-turned on ideas as he sees fit.
Yes, every so often, he raises a decent point, but the vast majority of his arguments are stupid nitty gritty whataboutry.
[This turned out not to be Rabbis SG, so my comment is incorrect.]. Rabbi SG, I know that you disagree strongly with R Slifkin, but your comments are unbecoming of a Rav of any sort. They also just convince others that the proponents of Charedi ideology are unhinged.
He wasn’t banned when I responded and he responded to my comment. However I apparently was wrong about who was posting. He took the Rabbi’s name calling so I assumed it was him. My mistake.
Reading this, and your daughter's post, brought tears to my eyes. You and she are a true inspiration. We wish you and she (and your wife, who no doubt played a big role in this as well) only bracha viHatzlacha and much continued nachat.
Yasher Koach and my admiration to Tikvah, a true Woman of Valor. Israel needs more like her. Congratulations Natan, to you and your wife for raising such an exemplary young woman and supporting her choice to join the IDF.
They did do a good job in raising this exemplary young woman, however, there is a glaring flaw in her upbringing and I'm quite disappointed about it. Rabbi Natan describes his daughter's experience with the Haredi volunteers as "bittersweet" and it seems that she did enjoy herself somewhat. As a product of the Slifkin home, she should have been utterly reviled by these insincere ingrates! She should have heckled them until they left the base. From the river to the sea, Israel will be Haredi-free.
Im not sure what you feel you gain from these personal attacks. Alll you are doing is unjustly giving whoever you represent a worse name than they already have here.
Coming from the Slifkin household she will have understood that inflammatory slogans are never helpful and that building constructive and compassionate bridges between people at a human level has never been more important than it is today.
I didn't mean to kill them Heaven forbid, I meant to defeat their ideology and eradicate it from all of Israel. That's exactly what this blog is all about, isn't it?
I'm not sure how tenable that is, given the last 50 days of almost non-stop anti-Haredi posts. His decade-long obsessive harping of everything related to every aspect of Haredim, real and imagined, is similar to a White Nationalist coincidentally being obsessively irked by everything that has to do with Blacks and then coyly claiming that he is just trying to be constructive. I'm sorry, but if you call this blog "respectful dialogue", I would think you are complicit in that as well.
I still don't understand how the Charedim can argue that Israel is not fighting a milchemet mitzvah, to which all are commanded to participate (even a bride).
I'm not aware of any that are arguing this. Why? Because they're too busy learning Hashem’s Torah.
This is the classic disconnect that they have with Yiddishkeit.
There is nothing greater that RNS's daughter can learn about being part of עם ישראל than fighting in this מלחמה. Her selflessness, like so many other soldiers', is awesome.
We have dozens and dozens of farms all over the country that need so much help with their harvests. This is literally avodas haaretz with "no spiritual dangers". Almost every modern religious school in the country has taken full days off from school to help out at farms. How many charedi schools have done the same?
It gets to a point when you run out of excuses and in the end its that you dont really care about the rest of the country. People really need help desperately and Hareidim are not stepping forward to help.
Has anyone made a formal request to any Chareidi schools to come help in the farms? I would not be surprised if they are just unaware of the situation(Dont go on about how they should be aware plese)
No. They are not. The shtetl was mostly hardscrabble subsistence farming on the ragged edge of malnutrition with high rates of infant mortality. The pious worked and worked hard.
I didn’t. The idea of leadership is to lead, not follow. The leadership has a party in the govt. It is incumbent upon the leadership to find ways to help consistent with their religious principles. But the leadership is poor to say the least. If they have no idea they can call up their DL colleagues and find out.
The same leadership whose response to Chaim Walder was to attack the people who reported him instead of launching an investigation as to have he could have remained unscathed all those years with all those victims including the ones that Batei Din knew about.
The fact that the event described in the post happened means that people do understand and want it help. But the leadership has to lead.
I posted a lot about it over the posts, but I'm bored of posting it over and over again, so if you want you can take a look at the Rambam in hilchos melachim and lechem mishna there.
Most are busy learning Hashem's Torah, except for the ones who are driven to mock Slifkin's posts after paying him money for the priviledge. Odd, odd, odd.
He doesn’t hate them. But really there is NO excuse. None whatsoever. You can dance around it all you want but Charedim who don’t serve are living off the benefit of the young men and women who lay down their lives. Literally.
What about all the olim let's say between the ages of 25 and up who aren't in the army do they also fall into this category? Or the multiples of Jews from chul who enjoy Israel as a holiday destination,are they not guilty of the same?
Show us the source material, and show us that this Halacha is proven.
I learned the Halacha and it was quite clear that a) the current war, of eradicating Hamas, is not a מלחמת מצוה, and b) that women are NEVER obligated to go to war, and are probably forbidden to do so.
Slogans and pithy Gemara statements taken out of context are not Piskei Halacha.
Not sure how well you learned the sugya. It's been a while, but the gemara literally says kallah m'chupata by milchemes mitzva. My personal rav and hashkafa interprets this as kallah m'chupata to say tehillim but i'm honest enough to know that that's a shver reading and that the shitos that say they should do logistics work are real shitos. Combat roles... i don't know enough to comment but it doesn't seem wise logically.
Quoting that Gemara is what I meant by 'pithy Gemara statements taken out of context'.
The Rishonim cannot accept this simplistic explanation, because women don't fight.
If Halacha means ignoring Mefarshim, Rishonim, and Poskim, then they have no right to call it Halacha. That name was used for an age-old process, that includes precedent and Rishonim, Poskim, and Mefarshim.
Tell me Teyre Zundele….does it frighten you to see a woman with a weapon. That she has to power to defend herself and even (gasp) you…? That female division that fought on October 7 and killed numerous terrorists and save countless lives….should they have asked a shaila if it was even permitted for them to touch their weapons…???
Wealthy chareidim solve the shabbos business problem with a few bits of paper from a local rov. chareidi Nursing home, energy businesses, equity partners in large non Jewish professional frims and similar all operate pesach, yom tov and shabbos not a problem. Sorted with some bits of paper. It's often don't ask, don't tell.
If only the DL and modox (and not chareidim) would use those heteirim and bits of paper, to operate business on shabbos. chareidim would raise all sorts of issues. Far worse than the eruvin they kick up a fuss about. But when it comes to money.........after all its only a d'rabbonon at worse.......(other than chometz b'pesach, of course)
1000%. That's why I agree they shouldn't fight. But (according to google, haha, i don't know the sugya) its the radvaz who famously says she brings her husband food and drink and therefore there is some basis for working in side jobs far from the front line.
Fakert, lots of achronim hold this is a melchemes reshus due to it being offensive.
But even if it's a milchemes mitzva, the Rambam mefurash says that a Cohen gadol and melech need to declare it a war. Since we have neither, this cannot be a milchemes mitzva.
A milchemet mitzva, that is, a war that we are commanded to fight, as opposed to a milchemet reshut, an "optional war", for the purpose of expanding Israel's borders.
Technical terms. There is a lot more to it than just the Hebrew words.
Because it's that type of milchemes mitzvah, then even 50 year old museum directors and children under would be obligated to fight. And yet they are not. So clearly the whole "milchemes mitzvah" argument against chareidim is either cynical or ignorant.
No it isn’t at all. The country needs people to both fight AND continue working so that the economy doesn’t collapse. The way it works is that the people from approximately 17yo on up are called up until they get enough soldiers along with older people with military experience needed for the fight. The rest of the people have to either continue in their jobs or else join the workforce in some way either as paid or volunteer workers. The visit here was a bit of the second, but there is a much greater need.
So now we pasken halacha from Midrash, even when it goes against normative halachic sources? And by the way, that Midrash is talking about going with the soldiers to the front lines to pray with them.
We argued about this already. It says nowhere that they went to the front. As far as paskening from a midrash, I agree with you, I was just raising the sentiment, since many people are making this into a moral issue, not a halachic one. If it is indeed halachically milchemes mitzva that's different. (I discussed the issues with that, in addition to that meaning ages 20-60 fighting, not 18-40.) The fact that Chareidim would've been different about this if things would've been different from the beginning, and that if strategies were changed there would be better results, has been raised many times here, and I don't see a point in repeating things.
BTW, that woman who told your daughter it's harder to hold kids than a gun is simply an idiot, and should be doing other things that BBQ's for soldiers, keeping her out of harms way.
Fought. It says in the army. Only the Elisa fought the rest were logistics and whatever else was needed. Don’t place Bronze Age soldiers in modern warfare positions.
As Leib points out, the Midrash doesn't say going to the front lines. The Midrash is not against normative halachic sources, you are completely ignorant of normative halachic sources, just like you are ignorant of the Midrash.
Nah, the country doesn't need museums open or other forms of entertainment. Tons of people not fighting who could. No need to limit it to 17 years old either.
Actually it does (and the museum is also educational). There are many displaced people and closed schools and kids in bad situations that need the museum or similar institutions.
But in general people need to keep their businesses open, continue to pay their people and their rent or else the economy fails. In fact I believe the museum brought money into the economy from the outside via fundraising for free entrance for those displaced from their homes.
That said, this is all irrelevant. Even if you can find a particular institution which is not working the way you think it should, you appear to be agreeing with the principle we have to do things differently now.
Sorry, the displaced people should either be fighting or be involved in essential aspects of a war economy, like food production. There is no excuse for entertainment facilities. That is, if you are really sincere about extreme milchemes mitzvah. But you are not, you just don't value Torah study the same way you value entertainment institutions.
OK so just the make it clear, you think that displaced children who lost all of their possessions should be put to work in war industries with no education or entertainment before 18yo single people with homes?
Most 50-year-old men without military experience aren't worth a significant investment of time and money, as far as military needs are concerned. But the population pool of younger men is an entirely different matter, especially when civilians are, in fact, being targetted by enemy combatants, and the home front too often becomes the front lines.
Don't be too quick to comment; חו"ש, you, or somebody very much like you, could actually be next.
I have to add that Charedim especially the ones in Israel (and not modern Charedim) have excuses for not being part of klal yisrael in a time of need. They dont want to serve in the army because it has spiritual dangers ok. They dont want to spend their day driving things to soldiers cause they feel learning torah is a bigger zechut, ok.
But we have dozens and dozens of farms all over the country that need so much help with their harvests. This is literally avodas haaretz. Almost every modern religious school in the country has taken full days off from school to help out at farms. How many charedi schools have done the same?
It gets to a point when you run out of excuses and in the end its that you dont really care about the rest of the country. Yeah they care about the war and soldiers that are going to fight. Yes they are reciting tehilim and learning for their zechus but people really need help desperately and Hareidim are not coming forward to help.
Why isn't Slifkin helping on a farm? He's spending days writing anti chareidi articles when he could be doing that, huh. He's advertising going away to be a "scholar in residence", that is, feed people his nonsense, instead of farming. It gets to a point when you run out of excuses and in the end its that you dont really care about the rest of the country.
It's unfortunate when people are so bound by their worldview that they automatically say offensive things. I imagine the cognitive dissonance of seeing a religious female soldier- and an Anglo from Beit Shemesh, at that!- didn't help. Good on your daughter for speaking the truth.
And I suspect her experience as an IDF CO will serve her well in raising her kids. :-)
"It's unfortunate when people are so bound by their worldview that they automatically say offensive things" you would be surprised at how many comments about chareidim on this site fall into this category.
Not many comments here critiquing Charedim meet the level of offensive self-absorbed narcissism as "Which do you think is more difficult, carrying a gun all day or carrying a baby?”
So, no. Not " many comments about chareidim on this site fall into this category."
This entire series of posts from Slifkin is the pinnacle of self absorbed narcissism. He's making the entire war about his idiotic quarrel with chareidim.
I'm not sure how 2 wrongs make a right? I never said the above comment was either valid or not offensive. In fact I never referenced the comment you brought up at all.
You were reacting to Nachum who wrote " people are so bound by their worldview that they automatically say offensive things". I referred to that offensive comment that Nachum referred to.
So it's simply not true that you " never referenced the comment you brought up at all."
Unless, of course, you actually didn't comprehend what Nachum was writing about.
You referenced the whole gun thing which I did not allude to I alluded to a concept, either way My first response to you still stands I don't see how 2 wrongs make a roght
My point above was no less valid than the comment you made. I was making an observation , the exact type of observation you yourself made. Im not sure why yours is more valid than mine?
A hug of gratitude to you, your wife and Tikva for the sacrifice each of you and millions of others are making for all of us. These months have changed many perspectives and hashkaffas. Some of the changes will not be noticed as fast as we expect, but nothing will be the same anymore after this is done.
Hey, Rabbi Dr. Natan, jurt wondering. You have mentioned a few times that your daughter is wary of the anti-religious influences that exist in the army. Can you be specific? Does she mean Gilui Arayus, by any chance, and you are being coy? Chillul Shabbos? Kashrus? All of the above? Please elaborate.
None of the above, actually (though doubtless those are problems for others). In her case, the problems have included having to count fast days as absent days, being given 18 hour shifts that finish right before Shabbat, having everyone annoyed at her when they treif up the oven and she insists that it has to be kashered, etc.
"· Walking away from many conversations you feel are inappropriate...
...Just yesterday my friends made me a crown that says on it: "נגיעה נגיעה אבל שומר". Which means - I'm “touching the wall” (army slang for being halfway through) but I won't be touching the guys, since I'm shomer negiah."
On a basic level, why does my nieces husband (dati leumi) have to sit in an armored personnel carrier for weeks outside Gaza in his reserve unit while others are barely affected by this war? Why is my nephew serving somewhere up north? They, their families are just as ‘religious’ as Charedim but somehow they know they need to defend their country. Beliueve me they daven 3x daily and learn Torah. There is no excuse. None. And the louder the Cheredi sector yells about this it’s becusse you are empty suits. Nothing there.
They don't have to. They could learn in yeshiva just like chareidim. They decided not to. Which is also a good decision, but then you start complaining about their decision. I hope they appreciate your complaints.
They have made the decision to be productive adults who earn their bread by the sweat of their brows, not parasites who steal food from the mouths of responsible people .
I read that Ben Gurion gave the original exemption for those remnants of the Yeshiva world the Holocaust survivors who made it to Israel. A very tiny group at that point. It developed of course from here.
If you were projecting any harder you'd be an IMAX. And you lie like cheap carpet.
I am not an atheist. But I believe in the real phenomenological world. I do not ram my fingers into my ears to the fourth knuckle and pretend there will always be chumps to spit on and grift.
And our connection to Israel goes back thousands of years and can be verified through the hard work of real evidence, not blind obedience to self-described petty monarchs and clever word games
Recreating a fantasy of 19ty century Eastern European ghetto life is not Torah. It is delusion. And it is one that places all Jews in peril.
Pick up a hoe. Pick up a rifle. Do something real for your fellow Jew once in your life even if it makes you live in the real world for once.
Yeah, there is a reason why most of the world doesn't buy the historical connection "argument". It doesn't allow people who were living in Poland and Germany and other places for millenia to come and take other people's land. Especially when the victims also have a historical connection. The Torah is the only thing that gives us a right to that land in the first place.
Most Jews in Europe worked. Who could sit and learn? Just the true geniuses the specially gifted learners. And of those many earned a living also. This concept of not working is a modern concept. And the concept of being paid by the State to not work and to not serve obviously didn’t happen until 1948 when Charedi Jews were truly ‘Shaerit ha’plaitah’ and were very few.
The idea of such a large sector living like this is truly bizarre and makes no sense.
You are right about Europe, and when secularists pulled through the generation declined in religiosity by 90%. So Chareidim think the best way to combat this is with this "medern concept". You may think they are wrong, but pushing at them more only makes them want to fight harder. There's a reason more Chareidim in America are educated, open and in business.
You're mixing metaphors. It's "lie like like a rug" and "all over him like a cheap suit." Start again and do it over. (The "projecting like an Imax" was pretty good though, I'd not heard that one before.)
Nah, the other decision also protects the country. If you think it's selfish, it's simply because you don't value Torah and have very little right to live in the Land. In which case the chareidim are protecting you even more than that.
Even in your view you should at the very least have a considerable amount of hakaras hatov to the soldiers,I mean you wouldn't expect them to all leave the battlefield and pick up a gemorrah?
The claim that the army protects the country is non-falsifiable. And if it was falsifiable, Oct 7 falsified it many times over. So please, spare me your silly pseudoscience jargon.
Excellent post. I don't think that it will be viable in the future that charedim can sit on the sides while other people's children are being killed. I don't blame the charedim...until now every government has made a deal with them. I'm not sure that there will be a deal to be had....but perhaps things will continue as usual. To me, it is morally repugnant that charedim would allow others to die for them. No, learning and raising kids are not the same. I don't wish bad on anyone but hundreds of soldiers have died ... And the charedi community has been almost completely untouched. Places like kiryat gay are devoid of men (fathers and husbands) and in bnei brak, life goes on.
Unless the election system changes they will continue to be a swing vote that can extract money for coalition votes. That is probably going to get even stronger as time goes on and the Charedim form a larger and larger part of the population. Even right now they are not willing to update the budget.
It's not an argument. You can choose not to be a combat soldier. So don't be a combat soldier. And, while it may true that the tel aviv elite crowd is not serving at all (it's ascertainable of that's true), it doesn't answer the fact that the charedi community is living life as usual when they should be serving. There is no reason why the entire community gets a get out of jail card forever
They are not living life as usual. There is no get out of jail free card. If you consider military service to be a jail, maybe you shouldn't live in Israel. Why bother going to jail?
I read your blogs now and then. In the beginnig I liked to read the comments section , as they indeed did provide inteiiigent content containing different veiwpoints. Now I dont go there as it turned into a name calling, derogotory items, and a slug fests belonging more on a Charedi mikvah news site.
I am a bit dissapointed you even answer them . I am not sure why you let these individuals hog the content with stupidity (I don't want to metion names - but you know them) maybe it is to show 200 - 300 responses, and how popular the site is? However, why read through all the garbage to get to anything of substance. It would make more sense to just keep the people that have something intelligent to add, even if that makes the comments section shorter.
Those who only attacks you, disparages you, and maybe even hate you - just list them in alphibetical order to start the comments, not to say "you ignore them", and say now we will keep the discussion to things of substance.
I would like to go back to reading the comments, if I could
What I mean to get rid of the stupidity, is not to delete someone or everyone who argues againt the article. I am addressing those who has nothing to offer. Example; there are bunch of comment about 'Yeling" who is yelling etc.. Why do we need to have them post? What does this nariskeit contribute?
Below is a post that is NOT in agreement but at least makes a valid point. Just filter the comments to the ones with some integrity and debate. Most other sites are able to accomplish this. Beleive me, it would be better to have 50-100 commnts of substance than 300 with every fool or hater posting.
I don't understand. The rabbis whose advice we follow have urged us to stay in Yeshiva, to increase our learning, and to work on Yiras HaShamayim. If you are theologically opposed to that, go and argue with the Roshei Yeshiva - but why should you publicly demonize and insult hundreds of thousands of good and sincere people?
I agree. I think there should be a zero tolerance policy. There’s really no point in having people on here who have not the slightest feeling of shame that their community - as a whole - is sitting in safety while others from every other community- as a whole - are risking their lives or have loved ones risking their lives in order that they can continue to sit on their behinds. Get them off.
You haven’t noticed how certain commenters - some of this very thread - litter the comment section with the obvious intention of blowing it up to make it unusable? Be honest
I agree with you on that, I don't like deliberate trolling either, and don't engage in it. But its impossible to thread that needle. We all saw with Twitter (pre Elon Musk) and Facebook how political speech is banned under the guise of "offensive" speech, and those are just the biggest and most recent examples. The answer to offensive speech is not less speech, but more speech.
That’s a tag line. Sounds good but is not a blanket statement. The comment section here has become unusable. More speech (more trolling) is not going to solve that. Trolling should always be controlled to the extent possible. So should profanity and hateful speech which usually goes hand in glove with trolling (as is evident on this blog)
You and I are using the comment section as we speak and disagreeing civilly, so clearly it is quite adequate for its purposes.
"Hateful speech" is meaningless, and if anything at all, means different things to different people. "Profanity", on the other hand, is easily defined, and has no place on this blog or any place of civil discourse.
Yes, silence all of Slifkin's opposition! It's too hard to have to actually stand up for your arguments! Very convenient for you, isn't it? And by the way, nobody in Israel is sitting in safety. And there are many chareidim with loved ones in combat as well.
You should brush up on your reading comprehension skills. I emphasized TWICE “as a whole” and anyone with the slightest bit of intellectual integrity would admit that the chareidim aren’t - as a whole - putting themselves and there loved ones in harms way like other members of Israeli society. Not even close.
And it’s this lack of intellectual honesty and/or lack of shame that I’ve no personal interest in hearing. Not to mention that your obvious intention is to litter the comment section so as to make it exhausting for anyone who is genuinely interested in reading through them.
Wait a minute, you advocated for commenters like us to be silenced since we are so obviously intellectually dishonest and "have no feeling of shame". But now you are trying to debate?! And what a pathetic attempt at debate you have shown. No wonder you want us to be silenced!
There is no chareidi society "as a whole". And there is CERTAINLY no non-chareidi society "as a whole". This is something you just made up on the spot in order to engage in chareidi-hate. There are many non-chareidi communities that send far less soldiers into combat than others. And many that send far more soldiers than others. And the chareidi communities are the ones who are protecting the rest of Israel with their Torah and mitzvos, and are contributing to the soldier's ability to fight. Even the religious soldiers themselves appreciate this, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2. The only ones who are complaining are the completely secular (which is understandable from a certain very mistaken perspective) and useless louts like yourself, and Slifkin.
Yeah, your dichotomy between chareidi and non-chareidi society as regards the burden of military service is deeply flawed, which undermines your whole argument. But don't worry, no need for arguments if you can just beg the blog admin to silence your opponents!
And how else exactly do you expect them to contribute? They ARE praying, saying extra tehillim, some even fasting. And sending money and supplies. So are you just an obsessive hater like Natan, who gets his life's enjoyment out of hatemongering against them, or do you actually have a real complaint?
Well done. But we also expect them to feel the shame that their chareidi counterparts in Israel are letting others risk their lives (as a whole) while they sit in safely (as a whole). And if they felt the shame that would give rise to expression which would help move the needle in Eretz Yisroel.
I live in America. No one has talked about this question yet it is a question that i often ask myself. I wonder what others here believe and would love to get feedback on this. Does the Moshe's question "Shal your brothers go to war and you remain behind" apply to us Jews living in Diaspora?
I dont think the army would be able to process millions of American Jewish men. חתן מחדרו וכלה מחופותה simply means that they can be called to serve. If they are not needed theres no need for them to come.
Only if you or your property are being defended. ( the story has the Israelites conquering one area together and some of them wanting to stop and keep the already conquered area for themselves)
It's hard to know what you mean by 'these people' who are 'yelling in their tiny corner'. I am Haredi and in Yeshiva. Most of the Talmidim, and my friends and colleagues, are trying their best, like everyone else. Why do you imagine that 'these people' are 'yelling'?
I’m not yelling. Commenting. And let’s add this. My brother who made Aliyah 40 years ago as a religious Zionist is now the father and father in law of several men serving in reserve. And he quite frankly doesn’t yell about this issue becusse he has given up on most of the Charedi sector contributing to the society that protects him. He won’t waste his breath on it.
I don't understand. The rabbis whose advice we follow have urged us to stay in Yeshiva, to increase our learning, and to work on Yiras HaShamayim. If you are theologically opposed to that, go and argue with the Roshei Yeshiva - but why should you publicly demonize and insult hundreds of thousands of good and sincere people?
Why don’t you look around and realize that your Rabbis are urging you to stay in a luxury lifestyle after October 7. I also don’t understand. Food is rotting because no one is there to work in agriculture. Others parents sons are dying. My nephews army job is to go to these parents. I don’t understand why you can’t look at Israel and make a contribution to even civil society if not the military.
This just shows how deluded you are. Luxury lifestyle, lol! I guarantee you that way more non chareidim at this very moment are living far more luxuriously than chareidim would dream. Chareidim are making a far bigger contribution than yourself or Slifkin.
Sorry I misspoke. I actually meant a luxury belief. Not a luxury lifestyle. I’m well aware that most Charedi families do not live a luxury life. But the belief is a luxury belief which means that people who hold it don’t pay the consequences. Currently in the US a clsssic example is defund the police. Easy for white wealthy people to believe that.
"Luxury belief" is just something you made up on the spot to knock chareidim, who are the ones really protecting the country. Being a kofer and a mechallel Shabbos or being an apologist for them is a "luxury belief".
A lady tried to find common ground with your daughter and made an inane, ladylike comment about Mefakedet. Instead of taking the comment in good faith as it was intended, your daughter managed to find something objectionable. It sounds almost as though she was looking for something to complain about.
A "lady", supposedly involved in acts of chessed, instead decides to put down one of those she's decided to help in a misguided attempt to build herself up.
Then you, Bentz, indulge your need to boost your ego by putting the young lady down again.
I would think that tayere Yidden schooled in examining their deeds might know better, but it seems not. That cognitive dissonance is tough to shake, isn't it?
Hooray! The evil Haredim again! You had two consecutive posts on other stuff so I was starting to get nervous... Power to ya, rabbi. Get 'em!
Rabbi, I was thinking that we have to have hakarat hatov to the Haredim for not going to the army. If they would, we wouldn't even have half amount of a reason to seethe about them. Where would we channel all our bitterness and frustration? Heck, we might even need to hire professional help! So next time you see a Haredi, say, "Thank you for not serving in the army so we can hate you and gripe about you 24/7!"
Stop the BS. Nowhere does R' Slifkin call Charedim "evil." In fact, both sides were presented in this article.
He just constantly barrages them with mostly twisted logic, often ignoring facts that contradicts his narrative or missing major points in an argument to disparage the minor points. He has also contradicted himself in his own articles, whilst trying to tear down a charedi rabbi, and has u-turned on ideas as he sees fit.
Yes, every so often, he raises a decent point, but the vast majority of his arguments are stupid nitty gritty whataboutry.
I thought there was going to be a pause from last week, but I guess the cease-fire is over.
I certainly haven't got a clue what this guy is talking about. I'm yet to be convinced that this commentator knows himself what he's on about.
It's difficult to agree or disagree when someone writes such garbled and confusing gibberish.
This is disgusting
[This turned out not to be Rabbis SG, so my comment is incorrect.]. Rabbi SG, I know that you disagree strongly with R Slifkin, but your comments are unbecoming of a Rav of any sort. They also just convince others that the proponents of Charedi ideology are unhinged.
I am popping in for a moment to make it very clear I am NOT Rabbi Goldberg.
No fair. Responding to a guy after he's banned is like kicking around a dead dog.
He wasn’t banned when I responded and he responded to my comment. However I apparently was wrong about who was posting. He took the Rabbi’s name calling so I assumed it was him. My mistake.
I don't get it, how was that? It says I responded to you 5 hrs ago that he was banned and Jesus responded to you 4 hrs ago??
😉
That's a question for substack.
Reading this, and your daughter's post, brought tears to my eyes. You and she are a true inspiration. We wish you and she (and your wife, who no doubt played a big role in this as well) only bracha viHatzlacha and much continued nachat.
Yasher Koach and my admiration to Tikvah, a true Woman of Valor. Israel needs more like her. Congratulations Natan, to you and your wife for raising such an exemplary young woman and supporting her choice to join the IDF.
They did do a good job in raising this exemplary young woman, however, there is a glaring flaw in her upbringing and I'm quite disappointed about it. Rabbi Natan describes his daughter's experience with the Haredi volunteers as "bittersweet" and it seems that she did enjoy herself somewhat. As a product of the Slifkin home, she should have been utterly reviled by these insincere ingrates! She should have heckled them until they left the base. From the river to the sea, Israel will be Haredi-free.
Im not sure what you feel you gain from these personal attacks. Alll you are doing is unjustly giving whoever you represent a worse name than they already have here.
No, he has a good point.
He’s trolling.
I go by xe/xir.
Coming from the Slifkin household she will have understood that inflammatory slogans are never helpful and that building constructive and compassionate bridges between people at a human level has never been more important than it is today.
I didn't mean to kill them Heaven forbid, I meant to defeat their ideology and eradicate it from all of Israel. That's exactly what this blog is all about, isn't it?
For me, this blog is more about respectful dialogue, and less about defeating and eradicating things.
I'm not sure how tenable that is, given the last 50 days of almost non-stop anti-Haredi posts. His decade-long obsessive harping of everything related to every aspect of Haredim, real and imagined, is similar to a White Nationalist coincidentally being obsessively irked by everything that has to do with Blacks and then coyly claiming that he is just trying to be constructive. I'm sorry, but if you call this blog "respectful dialogue", I would think you are complicit in that as well.
I had hoped the same ,until I read about the chareidim being the largest existential threat to the Jewish state.
You need to earn your right to breath. As of now, you haven't.
You sound very stupid.
Maybe you are very stupid.
Maybe you should think about growing up.
hitler was a bad dude
I still don't understand how the Charedim can argue that Israel is not fighting a milchemet mitzvah, to which all are commanded to participate (even a bride).
I'm not aware of any that are arguing this. Why? Because they're too busy learning Hashem’s Torah.
This is the classic disconnect that they have with Yiddishkeit.
There is nothing greater that RNS's daughter can learn about being part of עם ישראל than fighting in this מלחמה. Her selflessness, like so many other soldiers', is awesome.
I completely agree
We have dozens and dozens of farms all over the country that need so much help with their harvests. This is literally avodas haaretz with "no spiritual dangers". Almost every modern religious school in the country has taken full days off from school to help out at farms. How many charedi schools have done the same?
It gets to a point when you run out of excuses and in the end its that you dont really care about the rest of the country. People really need help desperately and Hareidim are not stepping forward to help.
Has anyone made a formal request to any Chareidi schools to come help in the farms? I would not be surprised if they are just unaware of the situation(Dont go on about how they should be aware plese)
Once again, if the Charedi leadership said “go to the farms”, they would go. But the leadership is trying to preserve the shtetl.
No. They are not. The shtetl was mostly hardscrabble subsistence farming on the ragged edge of malnutrition with high rates of infant mortality. The pious worked and worked hard.
Farming in the Shtetl?!
Are you really totally ignorant of history?
You seemed to have ignored my point, has anyone requested help then from the chareidi leadership? At least give them a chance.
It's up to us all to ask ourselves what can I do to help.
Once you grow from a teenager to adult, you shouldn't need to wait for someone to ask you. It's obvious.
Plenty of teenagers in other communities are volunteering, then finding out what their volunteer role is.
Stop making excuses.
I didn’t. The idea of leadership is to lead, not follow. The leadership has a party in the govt. It is incumbent upon the leadership to find ways to help consistent with their religious principles. But the leadership is poor to say the least. If they have no idea they can call up their DL colleagues and find out.
The same leadership whose response to Chaim Walder was to attack the people who reported him instead of launching an investigation as to have he could have remained unscathed all those years with all those victims including the ones that Batei Din knew about.
The fact that the event described in the post happened means that people do understand and want it help. But the leadership has to lead.
So why was the Doctor opposed to his daughter joining the idf, as he's written in the past?
What a selfless ingrate!
Are you a Vietnamese sandwich?
I posted a lot about it over the posts, but I'm bored of posting it over and over again, so if you want you can take a look at the Rambam in hilchos melachim and lechem mishna there.
Most are busy learning Hashem's Torah, except for the ones who are driven to mock Slifkin's posts after paying him money for the priviledge. Odd, odd, odd.
english pleez
Maybe they just disagree with your approach. Just like you with theirs. Trust me though they don't hate you as much as you do them.
Why would they hate us? They gain tremendously from us.
Chilonim gain way more from chareidim than chareidim gain from them though.
We would hate you because you sit and disparage us on the internet the entire day.
So you do hate them.... no Rabbi slifkin thats not why they dont hate you.
Nope, I didn't say I hate them.
hates not cool bro
Ok I will set my assumed implications of your previous comment aside.
He doesn’t hate them. But really there is NO excuse. None whatsoever. You can dance around it all you want but Charedim who don’t serve are living off the benefit of the young men and women who lay down their lives. Literally.
He doesn't hate us? Tell it to the marines.
What about all the olim let's say between the ages of 25 and up who aren't in the army do they also fall into this category? Or the multiples of Jews from chul who enjoy Israel as a holiday destination,are they not guilty of the same?
You could say that!
No excuse for Slifkin and millions of others, yet they seem to find plenty of excuses. Funny how that works.
Show us the source material, and show us that this Halacha is proven.
I learned the Halacha and it was quite clear that a) the current war, of eradicating Hamas, is not a מלחמת מצוה, and b) that women are NEVER obligated to go to war, and are probably forbidden to do so.
Slogans and pithy Gemara statements taken out of context are not Piskei Halacha.
Please provide the sources you learnt that brought you to this conclusion. Sounds fascinating.
Not sure how well you learned the sugya. It's been a while, but the gemara literally says kallah m'chupata by milchemes mitzva. My personal rav and hashkafa interprets this as kallah m'chupata to say tehillim but i'm honest enough to know that that's a shver reading and that the shitos that say they should do logistics work are real shitos. Combat roles... i don't know enough to comment but it doesn't seem wise logically.
Quoting that Gemara is what I meant by 'pithy Gemara statements taken out of context'.
The Rishonim cannot accept this simplistic explanation, because women don't fight.
If Halacha means ignoring Mefarshim, Rishonim, and Poskim, then they have no right to call it Halacha. That name was used for an age-old process, that includes precedent and Rishonim, Poskim, and Mefarshim.
Tell me Teyre Zundele….does it frighten you to see a woman with a weapon. That she has to power to defend herself and even (gasp) you…? That female division that fought on October 7 and killed numerous terrorists and save countless lives….should they have asked a shaila if it was even permitted for them to touch their weapons…???
The issue here is Halachic, no need to trash talk.
Success does not decide Halacha. If someone is successful in his business deal done on Shabbos, does that show that business is acceptable on Shabbos?
הלואי אותי עזבו ותורתי שמרו - stop worrying about how He runs His world, and just keep His Torah.
Wealthy chareidim solve the shabbos business problem with a few bits of paper from a local rov. chareidi Nursing home, energy businesses, equity partners in large non Jewish professional frims and similar all operate pesach, yom tov and shabbos not a problem. Sorted with some bits of paper. It's often don't ask, don't tell.
If only the DL and modox (and not chareidim) would use those heteirim and bits of paper, to operate business on shabbos. chareidim would raise all sorts of issues. Far worse than the eruvin they kick up a fuss about. But when it comes to money.........after all its only a d'rabbonon at worse.......(other than chometz b'pesach, of course)
Lol any barely trained woman would kick your butt….someone’s afraid of self-Confident and competent women….
1000%. That's why I agree they shouldn't fight. But (according to google, haha, i don't know the sugya) its the radvaz who famously says she brings her husband food and drink and therefore there is some basis for working in side jobs far from the front line.
That's right, and many woman are doing exactly that. It's obvious it means to help the war effort.
It’s better for those women who died on October 7, civilians and soldiers to have not fought back…???.I see…
Please explain how this is not a מלחמת מצוה, as it most certainly is not a מלחמת רשות .
Fakert, lots of achronim hold this is a melchemes reshus due to it being offensive.
But even if it's a milchemes mitzva, the Rambam mefurash says that a Cohen gadol and melech need to declare it a war. Since we have neither, this cannot be a milchemes mitzva.
man do you speek english? pleez post without the hewbrew
A milchemet mitzva, that is, a war that we are commanded to fight, as opposed to a milchemet reshut, an "optional war", for the purpose of expanding Israel's borders.
Technical terms. There is a lot more to it than just the Hebrew words.
I pray for my hebrew brothers
Because it's that type of milchemes mitzvah, then even 50 year old museum directors and children under would be obligated to fight. And yet they are not. So clearly the whole "milchemes mitzvah" argument against chareidim is either cynical or ignorant.
No it isn’t at all. The country needs people to both fight AND continue working so that the economy doesn’t collapse. The way it works is that the people from approximately 17yo on up are called up until they get enough soldiers along with older people with military experience needed for the fight. The rest of the people have to either continue in their jobs or else join the workforce in some way either as paid or volunteer workers. The visit here was a bit of the second, but there is a much greater need.
That's right, the Midrash says a third to fight, a third לשמור את כליהם meaning maintaining the economy, and a third לתפילה. All 3 are important.
So now we pasken halacha from Midrash, even when it goes against normative halachic sources? And by the way, that Midrash is talking about going with the soldiers to the front lines to pray with them.
We argued about this already. It says nowhere that they went to the front. As far as paskening from a midrash, I agree with you, I was just raising the sentiment, since many people are making this into a moral issue, not a halachic one. If it is indeed halachically milchemes mitzva that's different. (I discussed the issues with that, in addition to that meaning ages 20-60 fighting, not 18-40.) The fact that Chareidim would've been different about this if things would've been different from the beginning, and that if strategies were changed there would be better results, has been raised many times here, and I don't see a point in repeating things.
BTW, that woman who told your daughter it's harder to hold kids than a gun is simply an idiot, and should be doing other things that BBQ's for soldiers, keeping her out of harms way.
It doesn’t say 20-60
Fought. It says in the army. Only the Elisa fought the rest were logistics and whatever else was needed. Don’t place Bronze Age soldiers in modern warfare positions.
As Leib points out, the Midrash doesn't say going to the front lines. The Midrash is not against normative halachic sources, you are completely ignorant of normative halachic sources, just like you are ignorant of the Midrash.
Nah, the country doesn't need museums open or other forms of entertainment. Tons of people not fighting who could. No need to limit it to 17 years old either.
Actually it does (and the museum is also educational). There are many displaced people and closed schools and kids in bad situations that need the museum or similar institutions.
But in general people need to keep their businesses open, continue to pay their people and their rent or else the economy fails. In fact I believe the museum brought money into the economy from the outside via fundraising for free entrance for those displaced from their homes.
That said, this is all irrelevant. Even if you can find a particular institution which is not working the way you think it should, you appear to be agreeing with the principle we have to do things differently now.
Sorry, the displaced people should either be fighting or be involved in essential aspects of a war economy, like food production. There is no excuse for entertainment facilities. That is, if you are really sincere about extreme milchemes mitzvah. But you are not, you just don't value Torah study the same way you value entertainment institutions.
OK so just the make it clear, you think that displaced children who lost all of their possessions should be put to work in war industries with no education or entertainment before 18yo single people with homes?
Most 50-year-old men without military experience aren't worth a significant investment of time and money, as far as military needs are concerned. But the population pool of younger men is an entirely different matter, especially when civilians are, in fact, being targetted by enemy combatants, and the home front too often becomes the front lines.
Don't be too quick to comment; חו"ש, you, or somebody very much like you, could actually be next.
This sounds like a good excuse. I'm sure there are plenty of ways Slifkin could be helpful, other than being an animal-themed clown.
You can blame the Rambam and the Gemara and the Torah for making these Halochos, but I don't think you can blame RNS.
I can blame people who blame the Rambam and then make up their own halachos
"... either cynical or ignorant"
הפוסל, במומו פוסל
Im not sure we are yet at the extreme where you are going to be pulling brides into battle.
Thank G-d, we aren't. But able -bodied young men should be going to the army.
Actually, the Rambam writes that one needs a king and Cohen gadol to declare a milchemes mitzva, meaning this cannot be considered a milchemes mitzva.
Furthermore, the achronim debate if an offensive war after a defensive war needs a sanhedrin as well.
I don't think they are arguing that.
I have to add that Charedim especially the ones in Israel (and not modern Charedim) have excuses for not being part of klal yisrael in a time of need. They dont want to serve in the army because it has spiritual dangers ok. They dont want to spend their day driving things to soldiers cause they feel learning torah is a bigger zechut, ok.
But we have dozens and dozens of farms all over the country that need so much help with their harvests. This is literally avodas haaretz. Almost every modern religious school in the country has taken full days off from school to help out at farms. How many charedi schools have done the same?
It gets to a point when you run out of excuses and in the end its that you dont really care about the rest of the country. Yeah they care about the war and soldiers that are going to fight. Yes they are reciting tehilim and learning for their zechus but people really need help desperately and Hareidim are not coming forward to help.
Why isn't Slifkin helping on a farm? He's spending days writing anti chareidi articles when he could be doing that, huh. He's advertising going away to be a "scholar in residence", that is, feed people his nonsense, instead of farming. It gets to a point when you run out of excuses and in the end its that you dont really care about the rest of the country.
Yeah, and youll have a wonderfull עולם הבא.
It's unfortunate when people are so bound by their worldview that they automatically say offensive things. I imagine the cognitive dissonance of seeing a religious female soldier- and an Anglo from Beit Shemesh, at that!- didn't help. Good on your daughter for speaking the truth.
And I suspect her experience as an IDF CO will serve her well in raising her kids. :-)
"It's unfortunate when people are so bound by their worldview that they automatically say offensive things" you would be surprised at how many comments about chareidim on this site fall into this category.
Not many comments here critiquing Charedim meet the level of offensive self-absorbed narcissism as "Which do you think is more difficult, carrying a gun all day or carrying a baby?”
So, no. Not " many comments about chareidim on this site fall into this category."
This entire series of posts from Slifkin is the pinnacle of self absorbed narcissism. He's making the entire war about his idiotic quarrel with chareidim.
I'm not sure how 2 wrongs make a right? I never said the above comment was either valid or not offensive. In fact I never referenced the comment you brought up at all.
You were reacting to Nachum who wrote " people are so bound by their worldview that they automatically say offensive things". I referred to that offensive comment that Nachum referred to.
So it's simply not true that you " never referenced the comment you brought up at all."
Unless, of course, you actually didn't comprehend what Nachum was writing about.
You referenced the whole gun thing which I did not allude to I alluded to a concept, either way My first response to you still stands I don't see how 2 wrongs make a roght
Why do you come to a site that annoys you so much, just to attack the people who may be trying to have a decent conversation? That's just rude.
My point above was no less valid than the comment you made. I was making an observation , the exact type of observation you yourself made. Im not sure why yours is more valid than mine?
Because you're being a troll. I am not.
Oh , please point out my trolling comments.
All of them. Look up the definition.
I'm going to imagine that you're a nice person in real life and it's only these little comment boxes that make you sound like a first-class jerk.
A hug of gratitude to you, your wife and Tikva for the sacrifice each of you and millions of others are making for all of us. These months have changed many perspectives and hashkaffas. Some of the changes will not be noticed as fast as we expect, but nothing will be the same anymore after this is done.
They said 'nothing will be the same amymore after COVID' too.
People have short memories. A week after the guns fall silent, everything will be the same (other than for the famies caught up, of course).
Did you just assume Yoni's gender?
You can't hug both father and daughter ;)
Hey, Rabbi Dr. Natan, jurt wondering. You have mentioned a few times that your daughter is wary of the anti-religious influences that exist in the army. Can you be specific? Does she mean Gilui Arayus, by any chance, and you are being coy? Chillul Shabbos? Kashrus? All of the above? Please elaborate.
None of the above, actually (though doubtless those are problems for others). In her case, the problems have included having to count fast days as absent days, being given 18 hour shifts that finish right before Shabbat, having everyone annoyed at her when they treif up the oven and she insists that it has to be kashered, etc.
"is it chillul shabbos, or kashrus?"
"no, it's working till shabbos, and treif ovens"
And gilui arayus.
"· Walking away from many conversations you feel are inappropriate...
...Just yesterday my friends made me a crown that says on it: "נגיעה נגיעה אבל שומר". Which means - I'm “touching the wall” (army slang for being halfway through) but I won't be touching the guys, since I'm shomer negiah."
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/commander-slifkin-reflects
Kol hakavod that she prevailed, just don't downplay that there aren't real nisyonos.
Don't think he was downplaying them, though, to be honest.
Pick your battles , this comment is completely unnecessary.
She shouldn't be in that battle in the first place.
And so is this one.
Good for her. Her mesiras nefesh is incredible.
One is allowed to not work on base during a fast day. No need to be absent. Its מטכל"י
On a basic level, why does my nieces husband (dati leumi) have to sit in an armored personnel carrier for weeks outside Gaza in his reserve unit while others are barely affected by this war? Why is my nephew serving somewhere up north? They, their families are just as ‘religious’ as Charedim but somehow they know they need to defend their country. Beliueve me they daven 3x daily and learn Torah. There is no excuse. None. And the louder the Cheredi sector yells about this it’s becusse you are empty suits. Nothing there.
They don't have to. They could learn in yeshiva just like chareidim. They decided not to. Which is also a good decision, but then you start complaining about their decision. I hope they appreciate your complaints.
They have made the decision to be productive adults who earn their bread by the sweat of their brows, not parasites who steal food from the mouths of responsible people .
I read that Ben Gurion gave the original exemption for those remnants of the Yeshiva world the Holocaust survivors who made it to Israel. A very tiny group at that point. It developed of course from here.
From your atheistic perspective, they are occupiers who stole the land and are committing genocide. The only right to the land comes from the Torah.
If you were projecting any harder you'd be an IMAX. And you lie like cheap carpet.
I am not an atheist. But I believe in the real phenomenological world. I do not ram my fingers into my ears to the fourth knuckle and pretend there will always be chumps to spit on and grift.
And our connection to Israel goes back thousands of years and can be verified through the hard work of real evidence, not blind obedience to self-described petty monarchs and clever word games
Recreating a fantasy of 19ty century Eastern European ghetto life is not Torah. It is delusion. And it is one that places all Jews in peril.
Pick up a hoe. Pick up a rifle. Do something real for your fellow Jew once in your life even if it makes you live in the real world for once.
Yeah, there is a reason why most of the world doesn't buy the historical connection "argument". It doesn't allow people who were living in Poland and Germany and other places for millenia to come and take other people's land. Especially when the victims also have a historical connection. The Torah is the only thing that gives us a right to that land in the first place.
And Ben Gurion and Weitzman made the case using Tanach again and again and again.
Most Jews in Europe worked. Who could sit and learn? Just the true geniuses the specially gifted learners. And of those many earned a living also. This concept of not working is a modern concept. And the concept of being paid by the State to not work and to not serve obviously didn’t happen until 1948 when Charedi Jews were truly ‘Shaerit ha’plaitah’ and were very few.
The idea of such a large sector living like this is truly bizarre and makes no sense.
Not 1948. This all started early '80s.
You are right about Europe, and when secularists pulled through the generation declined in religiosity by 90%. So Chareidim think the best way to combat this is with this "medern concept". You may think they are wrong, but pushing at them more only makes them want to fight harder. There's a reason more Chareidim in America are educated, open and in business.
You're mixing metaphors. It's "lie like like a rug" and "all over him like a cheap suit." Start again and do it over. (The "projecting like an Imax" was pretty good though, I'd not heard that one before.)
He obviously cannot learn, so he sees his תפקיד as arguing about other people who do.
Their decision is what protects a country. The other decision is selfish. If you don’t think it’s selfish you need to really do some deep thinking.
Nah, the other decision also protects the country. If you think it's selfish, it's simply because you don't value Torah and have very little right to live in the Land. In which case the chareidim are protecting you even more than that.
There are cities full of charedim learning Torah who don't feel protected by it, why on earth do you think it protects a whole country?
They certainly feel protected by it. You are just a liar. Sorry. In fact, the modern Orthodox feel protected by it as well! See here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/is-the-protection-of-torah-a-chareidi
No they don't. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/promotions/2243744/mayor-of-beitar-illit-we-must-take-immediate-action-to-protect-our-citizens.html
Even in your view you should at the very least have a considerable amount of hakaras hatov to the soldiers,I mean you wouldn't expect them to all leave the battlefield and pick up a gemorrah?
There is considerable hakaros hatov, no matter how much Slifkin tries to deny it.
I agree , I was just making sure.
Sure a non falsifiable claim. It’s what you tell yourself.
The claim that the army protects the country is non-falsifiable. And if it was falsifiable, Oct 7 falsified it many times over. So please, spare me your silly pseudoscience jargon.
Excellent post. I don't think that it will be viable in the future that charedim can sit on the sides while other people's children are being killed. I don't blame the charedim...until now every government has made a deal with them. I'm not sure that there will be a deal to be had....but perhaps things will continue as usual. To me, it is morally repugnant that charedim would allow others to die for them. No, learning and raising kids are not the same. I don't wish bad on anyone but hundreds of soldiers have died ... And the charedi community has been almost completely untouched. Places like kiryat gay are devoid of men (fathers and husbands) and in bnei brak, life goes on.
Unless the election system changes they will continue to be a swing vote that can extract money for coalition votes. That is probably going to get even stronger as time goes on and the Charedim form a larger and larger part of the population. Even right now they are not willing to update the budget.
You are actually disgusting. That you think that you have Hashem on your side is one sick joke
It's not an argument. You can choose not to be a combat soldier. So don't be a combat soldier. And, while it may true that the tel aviv elite crowd is not serving at all (it's ascertainable of that's true), it doesn't answer the fact that the charedi community is living life as usual when they should be serving. There is no reason why the entire community gets a get out of jail card forever
Tel Aviv has a sadly low service rate. The difference is that they don't boast about it as an ideal for the entire secular community to adopt.
Don't hold your breath.
They are not living life as usual. There is no get out of jail free card. If you consider military service to be a jail, maybe you shouldn't live in Israel. Why bother going to jail?
I didnt see this until now -- but it is an expression.
I read your blogs now and then. In the beginnig I liked to read the comments section , as they indeed did provide inteiiigent content containing different veiwpoints. Now I dont go there as it turned into a name calling, derogotory items, and a slug fests belonging more on a Charedi mikvah news site.
I am a bit dissapointed you even answer them . I am not sure why you let these individuals hog the content with stupidity (I don't want to metion names - but you know them) maybe it is to show 200 - 300 responses, and how popular the site is? However, why read through all the garbage to get to anything of substance. It would make more sense to just keep the people that have something intelligent to add, even if that makes the comments section shorter.
Those who only attacks you, disparages you, and maybe even hate you - just list them in alphibetical order to start the comments, not to say "you ignore them", and say now we will keep the discussion to things of substance.
I would like to go back to reading the comments, if I could
Wishing you all the best!
The problem is that they keep posting under different pseudonyms.
What I mean to get rid of the stupidity, is not to delete someone or everyone who argues againt the article. I am addressing those who has nothing to offer. Example; there are bunch of comment about 'Yeling" who is yelling etc.. Why do we need to have them post? What does this nariskeit contribute?
Below is a post that is NOT in agreement but at least makes a valid point. Just filter the comments to the ones with some integrity and debate. Most other sites are able to accomplish this. Beleive me, it would be better to have 50-100 commnts of substance than 300 with every fool or hater posting.
I don't understand. The rabbis whose advice we follow have urged us to stay in Yeshiva, to increase our learning, and to work on Yiras HaShamayim. If you are theologically opposed to that, go and argue with the Roshei Yeshiva - but why should you publicly demonize and insult hundreds of thousands of good and sincere people?
Take my advice Slifkin, get a new commenting platform. Other commenting platforms have ways to prevent this.
Wonder why...
I agree. I think there should be a zero tolerance policy. There’s really no point in having people on here who have not the slightest feeling of shame that their community - as a whole - is sitting in safety while others from every other community- as a whole - are risking their lives or have loved ones risking their lives in order that they can continue to sit on their behinds. Get them off.
Yes! Ban anyone who disagrees with NS's complaints about banning his books!
(The hypocrisy of the left is what made me into a cynical skeptic...)
You haven’t noticed how certain commenters - some of this very thread - litter the comment section with the obvious intention of blowing it up to make it unusable? Be honest
I agree with you on that, I don't like deliberate trolling either, and don't engage in it. But its impossible to thread that needle. We all saw with Twitter (pre Elon Musk) and Facebook how political speech is banned under the guise of "offensive" speech, and those are just the biggest and most recent examples. The answer to offensive speech is not less speech, but more speech.
That’s a tag line. Sounds good but is not a blanket statement. The comment section here has become unusable. More speech (more trolling) is not going to solve that. Trolling should always be controlled to the extent possible. So should profanity and hateful speech which usually goes hand in glove with trolling (as is evident on this blog)
You and I are using the comment section as we speak and disagreeing civilly, so clearly it is quite adequate for its purposes.
"Hateful speech" is meaningless, and if anything at all, means different things to different people. "Profanity", on the other hand, is easily defined, and has no place on this blog or any place of civil discourse.
Yes, silence all of Slifkin's opposition! It's too hard to have to actually stand up for your arguments! Very convenient for you, isn't it? And by the way, nobody in Israel is sitting in safety. And there are many chareidim with loved ones in combat as well.
You should brush up on your reading comprehension skills. I emphasized TWICE “as a whole” and anyone with the slightest bit of intellectual integrity would admit that the chareidim aren’t - as a whole - putting themselves and there loved ones in harms way like other members of Israeli society. Not even close.
And it’s this lack of intellectual honesty and/or lack of shame that I’ve no personal interest in hearing. Not to mention that your obvious intention is to litter the comment section so as to make it exhausting for anyone who is genuinely interested in reading through them.
Wait a minute, you advocated for commenters like us to be silenced since we are so obviously intellectually dishonest and "have no feeling of shame". But now you are trying to debate?! And what a pathetic attempt at debate you have shown. No wonder you want us to be silenced!
There is no chareidi society "as a whole". And there is CERTAINLY no non-chareidi society "as a whole". This is something you just made up on the spot in order to engage in chareidi-hate. There are many non-chareidi communities that send far less soldiers into combat than others. And many that send far more soldiers than others. And the chareidi communities are the ones who are protecting the rest of Israel with their Torah and mitzvos, and are contributing to the soldier's ability to fight. Even the religious soldiers themselves appreciate this, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2. The only ones who are complaining are the completely secular (which is understandable from a certain very mistaken perspective) and useless louts like yourself, and Slifkin.
You’re right. I made up chareidi and non-chareidi societies. Brilliant argument
Yeah, your dichotomy between chareidi and non-chareidi society as regards the burden of military service is deeply flawed, which undermines your whole argument. But don't worry, no need for arguments if you can just beg the blog admin to silence your opponents!
Yeah, these people are terrible!
Not being ashamed by the lack of contribution is terrible
Totally. Let's binge-hate them for the next ten years like Natan did. Maybe it'll make us feel better.
And?
And how else exactly do you expect them to contribute? They ARE praying, saying extra tehillim, some even fasting. And sending money and supplies. So are you just an obsessive hater like Natan, who gets his life's enjoyment out of hatemongering against them, or do you actually have a real complaint?
Well done. But we also expect them to feel the shame that their chareidi counterparts in Israel are letting others risk their lives (as a whole) while they sit in safely (as a whole). And if they felt the shame that would give rise to expression which would help move the needle in Eretz Yisroel.
Rabbi Slifkin, your daughter is an inspiration to the entire Jewish people. Don't listen to these disgusting commenters.
We love you, Commander Slifkin, and we are so proud of you!
I live in America. No one has talked about this question yet it is a question that i often ask myself. I wonder what others here believe and would love to get feedback on this. Does the Moshe's question "Shal your brothers go to war and you remain behind" apply to us Jews living in Diaspora?
I dont think the army would be able to process millions of American Jewish men. חתן מחדרו וכלה מחופותה simply means that they can be called to serve. If they are not needed theres no need for them to come.
One can argue that once the govt gives you a פטור or דחייה youre not expected to fight whether that פטור was a good idea or not.
Well, that was the whole point: Transjordan wasn't within the borders of Israel.
Halakhically, yes, service applies to all Jews.
Only if you or your property are being defended. ( the story has the Israelites conquering one area together and some of them wanting to stop and keep the already conquered area for themselves)
These people are so nasty. Your daughter is a role model. They are afraid. Getting into their tiny corner and yelling.
It's hard to know what you mean by 'these people' who are 'yelling in their tiny corner'. I am Haredi and in Yeshiva. Most of the Talmidim, and my friends and colleagues, are trying their best, like everyone else. Why do you imagine that 'these people' are 'yelling'?
People posting stuff about his daughter. Sorry I wasn’t not specific. My fault.
The implied context here is bashing chareidim. Theyre just defending their position albeit in an obnoxious manner.
The only people yelling are guys like Slifkin and you
I’m not yelling. Commenting. And let’s add this. My brother who made Aliyah 40 years ago as a religious Zionist is now the father and father in law of several men serving in reserve. And he quite frankly doesn’t yell about this issue becusse he has given up on most of the Charedi sector contributing to the society that protects him. He won’t waste his breath on it.
I don't understand. The rabbis whose advice we follow have urged us to stay in Yeshiva, to increase our learning, and to work on Yiras HaShamayim. If you are theologically opposed to that, go and argue with the Roshei Yeshiva - but why should you publicly demonize and insult hundreds of thousands of good and sincere people?
Why don’t you look around and realize that your Rabbis are urging you to stay in a luxury lifestyle after October 7. I also don’t understand. Food is rotting because no one is there to work in agriculture. Others parents sons are dying. My nephews army job is to go to these parents. I don’t understand why you can’t look at Israel and make a contribution to even civil society if not the military.
This just shows how deluded you are. Luxury lifestyle, lol! I guarantee you that way more non chareidim at this very moment are living far more luxuriously than chareidim would dream. Chareidim are making a far bigger contribution than yourself or Slifkin.
They aren’t staying up night worrying if they will see their children ever again. This lack of sharing the communal burden is shameful.
They stay up at night worrying about a lot more than chilonim do. People who think they are serving the country shouldn't be complaining about it.
Sorry I misspoke. I actually meant a luxury belief. Not a luxury lifestyle. I’m well aware that most Charedi families do not live a luxury life. But the belief is a luxury belief which means that people who hold it don’t pay the consequences. Currently in the US a clsssic example is defund the police. Easy for white wealthy people to believe that.
"Luxury belief" is just something you made up on the spot to knock chareidim, who are the ones really protecting the country. Being a kofer and a mechallel Shabbos or being an apologist for them is a "luxury belief".
Not serving the nation of Israel is a luxury belief. It doesn’t make sense and doesn’t work any more.
As they say in Yiddish 'ah Kosher Kind'.
A lady tried to find common ground with your daughter and made an inane, ladylike comment about Mefakedet. Instead of taking the comment in good faith as it was intended, your daughter managed to find something objectionable. It sounds almost as though she was looking for something to complain about.
Ah Kosher Kind.
No I don’t think the lady’s comments were meant in good faith. They were a snark attack actually.
I dont think so. She came to help. Many american jews are חיים בסרט and are so disconnected to reality here that they dont know how to be considerate.
A "lady", supposedly involved in acts of chessed, instead decides to put down one of those she's decided to help in a misguided attempt to build herself up.
Then you, Bentz, indulge your need to boost your ego by putting the young lady down again.
I would think that tayere Yidden schooled in examining their deeds might know better, but it seems not. That cognitive dissonance is tough to shake, isn't it?