Hatzlacha, keep using the obviously strong values instilled in you by your parents! When Yosef was in Egypt and all pressure was against him, his upbringing is what kept him strong (ראה דמות דיוקנו של אביו)
Your service is not only a service to עם ישראל but a קידוש ה'.
I hope that you are able to stay strong in your commitment to Am Yisrael and Torat Yisrael, and have a positive influence on the soldiers around you.
My daughter drafted 3 weeks ago, she is one of very few religious soldiers in her Pluga, and I hope and Pray every day that she will be protected physically and spiritually
However she is in a physically demanding situation, lots of physical running and other activities outside, sleeping in a tent in the dessert, handling a gun and other dangerous equipment. So yes, I hope that she is not physically hurt or injured.
I am not lobbying for Haredim to go to the army, certainly not Haredi girls, and my preference was for my daughter to go to Sherut leumi (like her older sister), but she decided to go to the army, which is why I daven for her physical and spiritual safety.
Truth is, I pray for the safety of all my kids, even when they are not in the army - but the army does have potentially dangerous physical and spiritual situations.
My daughter is in a similar program - but the Magal commander's course. Some of the graduates go on to Hod but most go to regular basic training programs. She has almost no religious girls in her platoon. Not even a significant number of "mesorati" girls. We joke that she's become the 'rabbanot" of the פלוגה. There is no doubt in my mind that she has only grown Jewishly from this experience - religiously, spiritually and in every way possible. She went to a religious pre-army preparatory program for a year prior. Her Ulpana wasn't thrilled - but this is what she wanted to do.
two weeks ago her "dosi" Ulpana where my second daughter is still in HS, finally had IDF recruitment reps present in the school facility for the first time ever. I suppose that a pogrom can push things along.....
I didn't even notice the short sleeves. But one reader did and made a big deal about it, so I scrolled up to see what he meant. And found a moving and beautiful picture of a father giving his daughter a bracha. It's a shame that some people can only see one thing.
Nah, they will think she is wearing short sleeves, her own daughters will probably be completely sleevless (but with a super high hair covering turban thing that leaves half the hair uncovered) and a husband who wears a kippah the size of a coin, likely with a big dog too.
Hachush me'id that that is the progression of these sorts of families. I have seen it so many times.
The post is meant to inspire and unite, not trigger. If someone is triggered, I'd say that is on them. I believe short sleeves are acknowledged as a chumrah, no?
I'm not sure. I just know people from that community.
Either way, I am deeply uncomfortable analyzing another's dress or personal halachic compliance. Ms. Slifkin has made it extremely clear that she respects and follows halacha and it is of extreme importance to her, and I respect her for that. She is clearly a deeply religious person with yiras shamayim. The fact is she certainly beleives her dress meets halachic requirements, and she would not have worn it otherwise, as her other actions clearly show. Whether she is technically right or wrong is irrelevant, and bringing the picture as proof of her lack of serious religiosity as Garvin did is quite frankly disgusting.
Um... this started with a comment from Eli B saying "I am sure that some of your charedi followers (enemies) will initially be triggered by the photo of her in short sleeves. Then will read on and be awed by her many sacrifices. And will realize that being Torah observant involves more than just Tznius".
No one else commented on it till that was mentioned, and talking like that in regard to tznius is not professing much sensitivity either. (BTW, this blog is full of critisizing people who try to be the best Jews they can and I never found you calling anyone else disgusting here.) The fact that someone responded to that comment is not called analyzing anymore than what you are doing now. As far as your other point, The fact that someone excels in one area of Yiddishkait means nothing about another area, as most Jews can prove that. You are simply overreacting, especially since you are focusing on a conversation from September. Take a chill pill, and maybe respond to some of my more recent comments I directed your way.
Dus yehudis. Which means custom. however this custom is in the mishna as grounds to lose ones kesuba. ( since it was customary then) some , especially far right Rabbis and Poskim maintain that once a custom is quoted as binding even if the custom changes it remains binding. Some say this is not halacha(strict law) but rather "hanhaga" ( leadership?best practice?) Others simply reject this innovation out of hand.
In chareidi circles Rabbis who maintain the lenient position keep their mouths shut for fear of reprisal. I personally know of two such examples(one in the US) they will only be open with their close friends about such things. They are the ones who answer questions about " how much this or that needs to be covered " with " do whatever is considered tzanua and don't go overboard"
This a common polemic. Have you spoken to any women who learn gemara on a regular basis?
There are feminists. However the majority of women i've come across who regularly learn gemara ,do so , according to them " to have a deeper spirituality" which i understand to mean greater intellectual engagement.
When women started being educated, surprise, there are women with brains! who also have an intellectual bend.
Rav soloveichik insisted on having the Talmud classes mixed because he feared if they were separate the girls would likely end up getting an inferior teacher.
The Mishna quotes a dispute as to whether or not to teach Talmud to one's daughter. There is no ruling in the talmud .
The Rambam rules like those that recommend against( whether its a prohibition or advice is disputed). The Mechaber quotes the Rambam.
For those who view the shulchan aruch as binding in itself this settles the matter . For those that generally follow the Shulchan aruch as a matter of custom however ,one needs to note that women were never educated and there was no need for intellectual engagement with their religion,
Times have changed non Halachik but rather customary practice based in times completely foreign to our current experience should be reconsidered.
Primary source - no one is denying that women didn't learn in the past . The question is if they should today.
The yerushalmi is according to the opinion of those who prohibit. (Tosafos says this) ( there is a dispute between the Rambam ( according to the commentaries) and tosafos as to whether rabbi elazar Ben azaria ( who says women come to hakhel to hear ) holds like rabbi Elazar or like Ben azai ( tosafos holds r elazar ben azaria is like ben azai and the rambam holds rabbi elazar ben azaria is saying torah shebeksav is mutar.)
Interestingly the ברכי יוסף, יו"ד סימן רמו אות ז says the reason the Rambam tur and mechaber don't pasken like ben azai even though the gemara refers to ben azai's opinion as "Rabanan" implying consensus, is because rav yeshoshua in the mishna seems to follow his general approach. -( according to the aforementioned tosafos ben azai has backing from rabbi elazar ben azaria and wouldn't be a yachid anyway. This reason falls) -now interestingly the rav ( of bartenura) says on rabbi yehoshua מתשעה קבין ופרישות. לפרוש מן התשמיש, הלכך אין טוב שתלמוד תורה. "not good" sounds very reccomendy and not very chayavy
פסקי הריא"ז, סוטה, פ"א ה"ב
אע"פ שאין האשה מצווה על תלמוד תורה כמו שנ' ולמדתם אותם את בניכם ולא את בנותיכם אם רצה ללמדה הרשות בידו כמבואר בקונטרס הראייות בראיי' ב' ובזמן שהיו משקין את הסוטות חייב אדם ללמד את בתו תורה שאם תשתה ותנצל תדע שהזכות תלת לה
( not a chiyuv today)
( if anyone has this digitized, pdf etc I'd appreciate it)
The prisha 246 allows women who choose to learn to learn ( while still prohibiting teaching one who hasn't started on her own)
The Chofetz Chaim allowed a major innovation in allowing tanach studies in depth
ונראה דכל זה דוקא בזמנים שלפנינו שכל אחד היה דר במקום אבותיו וקבלת האבות היה חזק מאד אצל כל אחד ואחד להתנהג בדרך שדרכו אבותיו וכמאמר הכתוב שאל אביך ויגדך בזה היינו יכולים לומר שלא תלמוד תורה ותסמוך בהנהגה על אבותיה הישרים אבל כעת בעו"ה שקבלת האבות נתרופף מאוד מאוד וגם מצוי שאינו דר במקום אבותיו כלל ובפרט אותן שמרגילין עצמן ללמוד כתב ולשון העמים בודאי מצוה רבה ללמדם חומש וגם נביאים וכתובים ומוסרי חז"ל כגון מסכת אבות וספר מנורת המאור וכדומה כדי שיתאמת אצלם ענין אמונתינו הקדושה דאל"ה עלול שיסורו מדרך ד' ויעברו על כל יסודי הדת ח"ו
From this rav soloveichik said [the rav thinkng aloud page 121]
DH:] Can women learn Torah she'bal peh?
Yes. You can't really understand chumash or hashkafas ha'yahadus without the interpretation and analysis of Torah she'bal peh.
[DH:] How do you explain "כל המלמד בתו תורה (כאלו) לומדה תפלות"?
Women also have to have the concept of mesorah. In the days of Chazal, women got the mesorah through osmosis without formal learning, so there was no chiyuv for formal learning. It was based on "שמע בני מוסר אביך ואל תטש תורת אמך". Today when our mesoros are weak and they cannot get it through osmosis, they still have two chiyuvim, to know the halachos, to know what to do ללמוד לעשות; and the love of Torah she'bal peh so they can pass it on to their children.
The proof is from a giyoress, who must be taught ikarei ha'das including mussar and hashkafas ha'chaim. Our daughters today are certainly no worse than geirim, who need limud. Why would Rashi and Ramban be OK, but gemara not? They're all Torah she'bal peh. ע"כ
There are many examples of learned women throughout our history Google it ( I got lazy copy pasting)
There is an interesting maharshal about a yeshiva where the shiurim were given by a women שו"ת מהרש"ל, הערות סימן כט
I'm being mekatzer because my keyboard is making me tzaros .
going forward please do some basic research before commenting its annoying to have to deal with the basics.
The Gun. See Nazir daf 59 and Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 182, see there Shach Taz and Bach. See also Igros Moshe (או"ח ח"ד סימן ע"ה) regarding woman living in Gush Etzion that a pistol is fine since it is not used in combat.
Shalom. 30 years ago, the army didn't have very many frum men soldiers either. And even today, frum male soldiers are often given a hard time about religion. Not a few male soldiers have gone off the derech courtesy of the army. But I also have a daughter the authors age. And she decided to enlist. She has 2 older sisters who did sherut leumi, and the middle one is sorry she didn't enlist (She would have been awesome!) She also went to a mechina. Many people in my community still think it was a mistake. Today she is an armor instructor with 3 stripes and a skirt, and all of the other young ladies she serves with have learned about their Judaism because of her. They keep Kashrut and Shabbat in her room, they let her shower first before Shabbat, and she davens every morning as well as attending a shiur once a week given by the base Rav. Please G-d this will become the norm, but only if more and more women will serve. None of this will convince those who refuse to see that this is the direction our lives are headed. Kol tuv
Very IMPRESSIVE accomplishments ! BTW I have Orthodox Women relatives in the IDF. Maybe Commander Slifkin can form a club for Orthodox Women of the IDF, with the IDF's permission of course.
Thank you Tikvah for sharing your experiences with us and thank you for your service to klal yisrael.
But getting to the broader issue: The clear implication of this article and Rabbi Slifkin's postscript is that while strong girls like Tikvah are able to withstand the challenges that such an environment poses to frum girls specifically, many if not most girls are not able to withstand the enormous pressures put on them. This makes sense, as after all human nature is to be influenced by ones surroundings (see the rambam at the beginning of chapter 6 of hilchos deios). So the question is, while it might be that some day in the future there will be a critical mass of frum girls in the army that the challenges will abate, should this be encouraged systemically until then? Is it even necessary (most armies in the world do not draft or need women)? Is it worth the girls sacrificed on the alter to get to that point? Is it mutar al pi halacha? These questions are all related and need to be considered seriously.
Let's be honest. Secular Israelis are much better Torah-True Jews than the medakdei b'pirtei pratim because they fulfill the values of the Torah. Unlike haredim who rely on others blood to spill to keep them safe and on others work to feed them, and who devote their lives to honestly pretty meaningless details and to learning Talmud without creating any benefit to society, secular Jews score very highly on צדק ומשפט
So, if we keep the Land of Israel, it is thanks to those that actually keep the Torah, not those who 'keep the details' but avoid (or don't even understand) the main point.
Not even remotely joking.
The light-weight jews are the ones who shirk their obligations in favor of wild enthusiasm for things that are not actually that important.
Seems to me that spending time in religious neighborhoods is much more damaging for their soul. They will be exposed to stupidity and immorality.
Well, just to clear up how much understanding I have. I'm a frum Israeli, always have been, with two daughters going through these questions now. Since they always went to Torani institutions I'm sure they will choose Sherut Leumi in the end, but it's their choice. So I have some experience of these issues and also, after 50 years, some mileage regarding just how out of whack frum society has become. Over time I have come to think very clearly that members ofmoderate secular society in Israel arebetter at being good Jews, than frum people are. And its incredibly sad. So I know frum parents go through paroxysms of panic at the idea that their daughter might go to the army, be exposed to secular Israelis and as a result become less frum.. Well, for me that's a good thing as they might become better Jews as a result. I'm aware it's not a popular opinion
I knew that you or some other commentator would react they way you did. But trust me I do understand. I think the majority has it wrong on this matter.
But secular zionism cant last. Look at the Israeli left. They used to be קיבוצניק pioneers fighting as IDF generals for israels survival and now theyre all Universali and pro-trans. they are the most willing to abandon the land and Israels jewish charachter. Rav Kook knew that as correct as their inspiration was they needed to ground it in Torah. The real Zionists today are the religious settler "extremists", especially the ones who are מדקדק בהלכה.
The לייטים are very boug'ie and dont seem to have the same Nationalistic Idealism as the Merkaznikim and Halachik Gushnikim.
First, people also say that Chareidi Judaism can't last. Are you a prophet? No, neither am I.
Being universalist an pro-trans are indeed markers for being liberal and secular. You might as well point out that Chareidim are chauvinistic and anti-government.
You have a different definition of what it means to abandon the land and Israel's Jewish character than they do. Look at the over 100,000 people who have come out to demonstrate each week for the last few months. Do they look like people who have lost their fire, their commitment or their passion? Not to me. Now compare that the poor showing at right-wing demo's. (Chareidi demo's don't count because of the insane social pressure and lack of education about the alternatives. Their participation doesn't show you anything other than the fact that chareidi society has more social control.)
To talk about the 'real zionists' is just reflecting your definition, again. I personally think that 'real zionism' is about building up a viable sustainable moderate Jewish democratic country, not about having wild fantasies about how raising goats and picking fights with Arabs will bring about the Messiah. But that's just my definition.
Rav Kook is also entitled to his opinions, but it's not particularly binding.
In other words, you are entitled to your definitions, but trying to demand that others keep to your definitions is wrong. Getzel insists on his definition of being frum as a marker of being a good Jew. My definition is different (and he got upset about that). You have a definition of what it means to be a zionist. Great. Enjoy your definition. But don't write off those who disagree with you or assume you are right.
We can't tell the future. But don't underestimate those who have a different point of view. (And don't be rude to them, like Getzel is, either.)
Secular Zionism is at a) financially viable, b) capable of defending itself, c) capable of running a democratic state, d) capable of living with those of a different opinion and e) not racist. Neither chareidi Judaism or the religious Jewish nationalism can make those claims. So, you know, things aren't so clear.
If it is very challenging to remain a practicing orthodox jew in the IDF then you should advise anyone who is not very secure in their yiddishkeit to avoid it because the risks are much too great.
sorry, but I don't get something. Is Torah divine or not. If you believe that it is, you're being irrational, but if you believe that it is not (rational view - more in line with your father's view), why go through all the hardships and sacrifices? I'm really trying to understand how it's possible to be committed and rational at the same time. Why bother?
When has Natan ever written that he believes the Torah is not divine? My understanding is that he takes a rational approach to the details of yahadut but that he believes in Torah Min Hashamayim.
He never explicitly wrote that it is not divine but repeatedly points out that one needs to use common sense. It would require a great leap of faith (and being irrational, let's be real) to believe that god spoke to Moses and handed down the torah. I gather that he believes that it's a way of life that is moral and good to follow and that the stories and torah are not to be taken literally. That being said, I find it hard to understand how one can be committed to the laws if they are not divine. Believe me, I'm not criticizing him, I'm honestly trying to understand.
I believe Rav Slifkin's position is mainly against superstition and magical thinking, which is a mainstream position. However there is a fine line (and sometimes maybe a not so fine line), to be against superstition and magical thinking, without recognising what Ben Gurion said that 'to be a realist in Israel, you have to believe in miracles', which is one of the most important principles in Torah that logic and ordinary causality do not apply in the same way to Jews, who operate under Hashem's direct protection so long as we stay true to Torah. One controversial way in which this may manifest itself is the 'illogical' correlation between Israel's economic growth and Charedi population growth! :-)
The line is arbitrary (if there is a line at all). Ben Gurion may have said that and he was a secular person (he was not committed to the Torah and did not believe in a correlation between keeping the Torah and seeing miracles). You can either believe that the Torah is divine (somewhat irrational) or that it is not (more rational). Assuming you go with the rational point of view, how can you be committed to it? Why bother? How is believing in silly miracles any different than believing that Moshe heard the words of God and passed it on to us, the chosen few? And if it is all made up or loosely based on a true story which we are not to take literally, then why bother with it at all? He might say that it leads to a better life but go explain that to a 20-year-old. Again, not asking to be critical, I honestly don't get his position or how he can remain committed with his rational thinking.
So does he believe that the Torah is divine? Does he beleive in angels? Prophets? If yes, I'm sorry to tell you that it's kinda irrational, and if that is his position, why call yourself rational. There is no question that the most rational way of thinking would be agnosticism but he considers himself to be a rational orthadox jew and to me, that is an oxymoron.
Rabbi Slifkin, if you are reading this, I would appreciate it if you would reply. Again, not being critical but I honestly would like to understand your philosophy.
Jews do it - be rational and committed. Irrational can sometimes come across as a flight away from being real. It can border on delusional. It always gave me the idea that Judaism was an escapist sham, and G-d simply the religious charlatan’s product for sale. Being observant - the acid test of old - is much more subtle. Less of a child’s mindset.
I have a friend who is a non believer - more than one. Married, children, never cheating on their wives. Why never cheat? Because they made “the commitment” not to. Ethics are a commitment too. Not a religious one built on a perverse escape hatch of a commitment to irrational.
כל הכבוד! I wish myself to have such children!! I wanted to ask concerning שומר נגיעה. Why is it an importance practice to you? Did you always do it? Is it an important part of your identity as a “dosit “ ? Thanks! And כל הכבוד again!
Nonsence! Stam touching is a harchoko between a husband and ishto niddah. It does NOT apply to stam niddoh who is not a spouse. Once it is not a spouse we are into derech chibboh and hanhogos tovos.
All the 'raid' b'yeshivish about taking a spouse's pulse etc is only ishto niddoh. Not stam ishoh niddoh, perferctly pemissable for a charedi doctor to take her pulse (and they do, or would except the technology had advanced so no touching needed).
Go learn. If you think differently, ask how all the very charedi professionals can squash on a subway train with all sorts of different genders. To be avoided as much as possible, obvioiusly, but no issur.
Then i was reffering to intentional touching בדרך חיבה. The context was that someone asked Tikva why shes shomer. I dont think he understood her to mean that she wont sit next to a man on a bus out of fear of brushing past him.
That is a concept connected to chashash hirhurim or histaklus. Nothing to do with negiah per se.
A doctor doesn't need that heter, it is not derech chibah period. And if the doctor is the husband, and his wife is a niddoh, whether the harchokas niddah do not permit him to take the pulse is a machlokas poskim.
It should be noted that the full term the shach uses is דרך חיבת ביאה which is not slapping five or even hugging as a friend it would need to be explicitly sexual. ( I'm full on shomer because thats more practical for me but as a matter of halacha...)
The Hebrew word "l'hithgayes" has g-y-s as a root, but it does not mean "drafted." that's what the government does to grow the army. Y'all mean "enlisted." Maybe i'll be able to read this when this basic but repetitive error is corrected.
it makes the criticism easier to digest when accompanied with ironic humor. sometimes just being curious is not sufficient. it's also important to be chilled out.
Hatzlacha, keep using the obviously strong values instilled in you by your parents! When Yosef was in Egypt and all pressure was against him, his upbringing is what kept him strong (ראה דמות דיוקנו של אביו)
Kol haKavod Tikva.
Your service is not only a service to עם ישראל but a קידוש ה'.
I hope that you are able to stay strong in your commitment to Am Yisrael and Torat Yisrael, and have a positive influence on the soldiers around you.
My daughter drafted 3 weeks ago, she is one of very few religious soldiers in her Pluga, and I hope and Pray every day that she will be protected physically and spiritually
No she is not in combat (unlike my son who was)
However she is in a physically demanding situation, lots of physical running and other activities outside, sleeping in a tent in the dessert, handling a gun and other dangerous equipment. So yes, I hope that she is not physically hurt or injured.
I am not lobbying for Haredim to go to the army, certainly not Haredi girls, and my preference was for my daughter to go to Sherut leumi (like her older sister), but she decided to go to the army, which is why I daven for her physical and spiritual safety.
Truth is, I pray for the safety of all my kids, even when they are not in the army - but the army does have potentially dangerous physical and spiritual situations.
This ^^^. Every good parents davens for their children's physical and spiritual well being.
May Hashem shield her physically and spiritually!
My daughter is in a similar program - but the Magal commander's course. Some of the graduates go on to Hod but most go to regular basic training programs. She has almost no religious girls in her platoon. Not even a significant number of "mesorati" girls. We joke that she's become the 'rabbanot" of the פלוגה. There is no doubt in my mind that she has only grown Jewishly from this experience - religiously, spiritually and in every way possible. She went to a religious pre-army preparatory program for a year prior. Her Ulpana wasn't thrilled - but this is what she wanted to do.
two weeks ago her "dosi" Ulpana where my second daughter is still in HS, finally had IDF recruitment reps present in the school facility for the first time ever. I suppose that a pogrom can push things along.....
I am sure that some of your charedi followers (enemies) will initially be triggered by the photo of her in short sleeves
Then will read on and be awed by her many sacrifices
And will realise that being Torah observant involves more than just Tznius
Thanks for an inspiring post
I didn't even notice the short sleeves. But one reader did and made a big deal about it, so I scrolled up to see what he meant. And found a moving and beautiful picture of a father giving his daughter a bracha. It's a shame that some people can only see one thing.
Nah, they will think she is wearing short sleeves, her own daughters will probably be completely sleevless (but with a super high hair covering turban thing that leaves half the hair uncovered) and a husband who wears a kippah the size of a coin, likely with a big dog too.
Hachush me'id that that is the progression of these sorts of families. I have seen it so many times.
Yea, and thats why we don't touch girls either, even שלא דרל חיבה for the same reason. (I do not mean when there is a need.)
Agreed.
The post is meant to inspire and unite, not trigger. If someone is triggered, I'd say that is on them. I believe short sleeves are acknowledged as a chumrah, no?
Just elbows exposed, some stretch it to a tefach, no more than that.
R Teitz in Elizabeth disagrees. Rov is enough.
Interesting, where can I check that?
Any way, due to style there is almost no such Woman's top like that, and neither in the posted picture, so it is still not just a Chumra.
I'm not sure. I just know people from that community.
Either way, I am deeply uncomfortable analyzing another's dress or personal halachic compliance. Ms. Slifkin has made it extremely clear that she respects and follows halacha and it is of extreme importance to her, and I respect her for that. She is clearly a deeply religious person with yiras shamayim. The fact is she certainly beleives her dress meets halachic requirements, and she would not have worn it otherwise, as her other actions clearly show. Whether she is technically right or wrong is irrelevant, and bringing the picture as proof of her lack of serious religiosity as Garvin did is quite frankly disgusting.
Um... this started with a comment from Eli B saying "I am sure that some of your charedi followers (enemies) will initially be triggered by the photo of her in short sleeves. Then will read on and be awed by her many sacrifices. And will realize that being Torah observant involves more than just Tznius".
No one else commented on it till that was mentioned, and talking like that in regard to tznius is not professing much sensitivity either. (BTW, this blog is full of critisizing people who try to be the best Jews they can and I never found you calling anyone else disgusting here.) The fact that someone responded to that comment is not called analyzing anymore than what you are doing now. As far as your other point, The fact that someone excels in one area of Yiddishkait means nothing about another area, as most Jews can prove that. You are simply overreacting, especially since you are focusing on a conversation from September. Take a chill pill, and maybe respond to some of my more recent comments I directed your way.
I have heard of one Orthodox rabbi who holds that short sleeves are permitted, but IINM the commonly accepted opinion is that they are forbidden.
Dus yehudis. Which means custom. however this custom is in the mishna as grounds to lose ones kesuba. ( since it was customary then) some , especially far right Rabbis and Poskim maintain that once a custom is quoted as binding even if the custom changes it remains binding. Some say this is not halacha(strict law) but rather "hanhaga" ( leadership?best practice?) Others simply reject this innovation out of hand.
In chareidi circles Rabbis who maintain the lenient position keep their mouths shut for fear of reprisal. I personally know of two such examples(one in the US) they will only be open with their close friends about such things. They are the ones who answer questions about " how much this or that needs to be covered " with " do whatever is considered tzanua and don't go overboard"
Not by most poskim
You are aware that there are great halachic authorities who permit or even encourage women to learn gemara, aren't you?
This a common polemic. Have you spoken to any women who learn gemara on a regular basis?
There are feminists. However the majority of women i've come across who regularly learn gemara ,do so , according to them " to have a deeper spirituality" which i understand to mean greater intellectual engagement.
When women started being educated, surprise, there are women with brains! who also have an intellectual bend.
Rav soloveichik insisted on having the Talmud classes mixed because he feared if they were separate the girls would likely end up getting an inferior teacher.
The Mishna quotes a dispute as to whether or not to teach Talmud to one's daughter. There is no ruling in the talmud .
The Rambam rules like those that recommend against( whether its a prohibition or advice is disputed). The Mechaber quotes the Rambam.
For those who view the shulchan aruch as binding in itself this settles the matter . For those that generally follow the Shulchan aruch as a matter of custom however ,one needs to note that women were never educated and there was no need for intellectual engagement with their religion,
Times have changed non Halachik but rather customary practice based in times completely foreign to our current experience should be reconsidered.
Primary source - no one is denying that women didn't learn in the past . The question is if they should today.
The yerushalmi is according to the opinion of those who prohibit. (Tosafos says this) ( there is a dispute between the Rambam ( according to the commentaries) and tosafos as to whether rabbi elazar Ben azaria ( who says women come to hakhel to hear ) holds like rabbi Elazar or like Ben azai ( tosafos holds r elazar ben azaria is like ben azai and the rambam holds rabbi elazar ben azaria is saying torah shebeksav is mutar.)
Interestingly the ברכי יוסף, יו"ד סימן רמו אות ז says the reason the Rambam tur and mechaber don't pasken like ben azai even though the gemara refers to ben azai's opinion as "Rabanan" implying consensus, is because rav yeshoshua in the mishna seems to follow his general approach. -( according to the aforementioned tosafos ben azai has backing from rabbi elazar ben azaria and wouldn't be a yachid anyway. This reason falls) -now interestingly the rav ( of bartenura) says on rabbi yehoshua מתשעה קבין ופרישות. לפרוש מן התשמיש, הלכך אין טוב שתלמוד תורה. "not good" sounds very reccomendy and not very chayavy
פסקי הריא"ז, סוטה, פ"א ה"ב
אע"פ שאין האשה מצווה על תלמוד תורה כמו שנ' ולמדתם אותם את בניכם ולא את בנותיכם אם רצה ללמדה הרשות בידו כמבואר בקונטרס הראייות בראיי' ב' ובזמן שהיו משקין את הסוטות חייב אדם ללמד את בתו תורה שאם תשתה ותנצל תדע שהזכות תלת לה
( not a chiyuv today)
( if anyone has this digitized, pdf etc I'd appreciate it)
The prisha 246 allows women who choose to learn to learn ( while still prohibiting teaching one who hasn't started on her own)
The Chofetz Chaim allowed a major innovation in allowing tanach studies in depth
ונראה דכל זה דוקא בזמנים שלפנינו שכל אחד היה דר במקום אבותיו וקבלת האבות היה חזק מאד אצל כל אחד ואחד להתנהג בדרך שדרכו אבותיו וכמאמר הכתוב שאל אביך ויגדך בזה היינו יכולים לומר שלא תלמוד תורה ותסמוך בהנהגה על אבותיה הישרים אבל כעת בעו"ה שקבלת האבות נתרופף מאוד מאוד וגם מצוי שאינו דר במקום אבותיו כלל ובפרט אותן שמרגילין עצמן ללמוד כתב ולשון העמים בודאי מצוה רבה ללמדם חומש וגם נביאים וכתובים ומוסרי חז"ל כגון מסכת אבות וספר מנורת המאור וכדומה כדי שיתאמת אצלם ענין אמונתינו הקדושה דאל"ה עלול שיסורו מדרך ד' ויעברו על כל יסודי הדת ח"ו
From this rav soloveichik said [the rav thinkng aloud page 121]
DH:] Can women learn Torah she'bal peh?
Yes. You can't really understand chumash or hashkafas ha'yahadus without the interpretation and analysis of Torah she'bal peh.
[DH:] How do you explain "כל המלמד בתו תורה (כאלו) לומדה תפלות"?
Women also have to have the concept of mesorah. In the days of Chazal, women got the mesorah through osmosis without formal learning, so there was no chiyuv for formal learning. It was based on "שמע בני מוסר אביך ואל תטש תורת אמך". Today when our mesoros are weak and they cannot get it through osmosis, they still have two chiyuvim, to know the halachos, to know what to do ללמוד לעשות; and the love of Torah she'bal peh so they can pass it on to their children.
The proof is from a giyoress, who must be taught ikarei ha'das including mussar and hashkafas ha'chaim. Our daughters today are certainly no worse than geirim, who need limud. Why would Rashi and Ramban be OK, but gemara not? They're all Torah she'bal peh. ע"כ
There are many examples of learned women throughout our history Google it ( I got lazy copy pasting)
There is an interesting maharshal about a yeshiva where the shiurim were given by a women שו"ת מהרש"ל, הערות סימן כט
I'm being mekatzer because my keyboard is making me tzaros .
going forward please do some basic research before commenting its annoying to have to deal with the basics.
Its a rambam and shulcham aruch that they get schar for learning.
Rav Soloveichek ztz"l.
Busted, Getzel… 😂
Rashi
בגד איש is also an issue isn't it?
What בגד איש did you see?
The Gun. See Nazir daf 59 and Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 182, see there Shach Taz and Bach. See also Igros Moshe (או"ח ח"ד סימן ע"ה) regarding woman living in Gush Etzion that a pistol is fine since it is not used in combat.
An olive drab skirt, obvi…
Shalom. 30 years ago, the army didn't have very many frum men soldiers either. And even today, frum male soldiers are often given a hard time about religion. Not a few male soldiers have gone off the derech courtesy of the army. But I also have a daughter the authors age. And she decided to enlist. She has 2 older sisters who did sherut leumi, and the middle one is sorry she didn't enlist (She would have been awesome!) She also went to a mechina. Many people in my community still think it was a mistake. Today she is an armor instructor with 3 stripes and a skirt, and all of the other young ladies she serves with have learned about their Judaism because of her. They keep Kashrut and Shabbat in her room, they let her shower first before Shabbat, and she davens every morning as well as attending a shiur once a week given by the base Rav. Please G-d this will become the norm, but only if more and more women will serve. None of this will convince those who refuse to see that this is the direction our lives are headed. Kol tuv
Very IMPRESSIVE accomplishments ! BTW I have Orthodox Women relatives in the IDF. Maybe Commander Slifkin can form a club for Orthodox Women of the IDF, with the IDF's permission of course.
Thank you Tikvah for sharing your experiences with us and thank you for your service to klal yisrael.
But getting to the broader issue: The clear implication of this article and Rabbi Slifkin's postscript is that while strong girls like Tikvah are able to withstand the challenges that such an environment poses to frum girls specifically, many if not most girls are not able to withstand the enormous pressures put on them. This makes sense, as after all human nature is to be influenced by ones surroundings (see the rambam at the beginning of chapter 6 of hilchos deios). So the question is, while it might be that some day in the future there will be a critical mass of frum girls in the army that the challenges will abate, should this be encouraged systemically until then? Is it even necessary (most armies in the world do not draft or need women)? Is it worth the girls sacrificed on the alter to get to that point? Is it mutar al pi halacha? These questions are all related and need to be considered seriously.
Correct. Light weight jews who don't truly care about Torah living make light of these concerns in favor of protecting the land.
One of the most common themes throughout Tanach is that the land is conditioned on keeping Torah.
The jews who don't truly care, ignore this, while yelling like mad against extrs chumras and non rationalism as if these are the biggest issues.
But what about dangers, such as women in the army where they are exposed to immorality and sin, and risk of profaning the shabbos?
There they go radio silent because their empty fake souls.
Let's be honest. Secular Israelis are much better Torah-True Jews than the medakdei b'pirtei pratim because they fulfill the values of the Torah. Unlike haredim who rely on others blood to spill to keep them safe and on others work to feed them, and who devote their lives to honestly pretty meaningless details and to learning Talmud without creating any benefit to society, secular Jews score very highly on צדק ומשפט
So, if we keep the Land of Israel, it is thanks to those that actually keep the Torah, not those who 'keep the details' but avoid (or don't even understand) the main point.
Not even remotely joking.
The light-weight jews are the ones who shirk their obligations in favor of wild enthusiasm for things that are not actually that important.
Seems to me that spending time in religious neighborhoods is much more damaging for their soul. They will be exposed to stupidity and immorality.
Was that silent enough for you?
Well, just to clear up how much understanding I have. I'm a frum Israeli, always have been, with two daughters going through these questions now. Since they always went to Torani institutions I'm sure they will choose Sherut Leumi in the end, but it's their choice. So I have some experience of these issues and also, after 50 years, some mileage regarding just how out of whack frum society has become. Over time I have come to think very clearly that members ofmoderate secular society in Israel arebetter at being good Jews, than frum people are. And its incredibly sad. So I know frum parents go through paroxysms of panic at the idea that their daughter might go to the army, be exposed to secular Israelis and as a result become less frum.. Well, for me that's a good thing as they might become better Jews as a result. I'm aware it's not a popular opinion
I knew that you or some other commentator would react they way you did. But trust me I do understand. I think the majority has it wrong on this matter.
But secular zionism cant last. Look at the Israeli left. They used to be קיבוצניק pioneers fighting as IDF generals for israels survival and now theyre all Universali and pro-trans. they are the most willing to abandon the land and Israels jewish charachter. Rav Kook knew that as correct as their inspiration was they needed to ground it in Torah. The real Zionists today are the religious settler "extremists", especially the ones who are מדקדק בהלכה.
The לייטים are very boug'ie and dont seem to have the same Nationalistic Idealism as the Merkaznikim and Halachik Gushnikim.
@Avraham
First, people also say that Chareidi Judaism can't last. Are you a prophet? No, neither am I.
Being universalist an pro-trans are indeed markers for being liberal and secular. You might as well point out that Chareidim are chauvinistic and anti-government.
You have a different definition of what it means to abandon the land and Israel's Jewish character than they do. Look at the over 100,000 people who have come out to demonstrate each week for the last few months. Do they look like people who have lost their fire, their commitment or their passion? Not to me. Now compare that the poor showing at right-wing demo's. (Chareidi demo's don't count because of the insane social pressure and lack of education about the alternatives. Their participation doesn't show you anything other than the fact that chareidi society has more social control.)
To talk about the 'real zionists' is just reflecting your definition, again. I personally think that 'real zionism' is about building up a viable sustainable moderate Jewish democratic country, not about having wild fantasies about how raising goats and picking fights with Arabs will bring about the Messiah. But that's just my definition.
Rav Kook is also entitled to his opinions, but it's not particularly binding.
In other words, you are entitled to your definitions, but trying to demand that others keep to your definitions is wrong. Getzel insists on his definition of being frum as a marker of being a good Jew. My definition is different (and he got upset about that). You have a definition of what it means to be a zionist. Great. Enjoy your definition. But don't write off those who disagree with you or assume you are right.
We can't tell the future. But don't underestimate those who have a different point of view. (And don't be rude to them, like Getzel is, either.)
Secular Zionism is at a) financially viable, b) capable of defending itself, c) capable of running a democratic state, d) capable of living with those of a different opinion and e) not racist. Neither chareidi Judaism or the religious Jewish nationalism can make those claims. So, you know, things aren't so clear.
If it is very challenging to remain a practicing orthodox jew in the IDF then you should advise anyone who is not very secure in their yiddishkeit to avoid it because the risks are much too great.
sorry, but I don't get something. Is Torah divine or not. If you believe that it is, you're being irrational, but if you believe that it is not (rational view - more in line with your father's view), why go through all the hardships and sacrifices? I'm really trying to understand how it's possible to be committed and rational at the same time. Why bother?
When has Natan ever written that he believes the Torah is not divine? My understanding is that he takes a rational approach to the details of yahadut but that he believes in Torah Min Hashamayim.
He never explicitly wrote that it is not divine but repeatedly points out that one needs to use common sense. It would require a great leap of faith (and being irrational, let's be real) to believe that god spoke to Moses and handed down the torah. I gather that he believes that it's a way of life that is moral and good to follow and that the stories and torah are not to be taken literally. That being said, I find it hard to understand how one can be committed to the laws if they are not divine. Believe me, I'm not criticizing him, I'm honestly trying to understand.
I believe Rav Slifkin's position is mainly against superstition and magical thinking, which is a mainstream position. However there is a fine line (and sometimes maybe a not so fine line), to be against superstition and magical thinking, without recognising what Ben Gurion said that 'to be a realist in Israel, you have to believe in miracles', which is one of the most important principles in Torah that logic and ordinary causality do not apply in the same way to Jews, who operate under Hashem's direct protection so long as we stay true to Torah. One controversial way in which this may manifest itself is the 'illogical' correlation between Israel's economic growth and Charedi population growth! :-)
The line is arbitrary (if there is a line at all). Ben Gurion may have said that and he was a secular person (he was not committed to the Torah and did not believe in a correlation between keeping the Torah and seeing miracles). You can either believe that the Torah is divine (somewhat irrational) or that it is not (more rational). Assuming you go with the rational point of view, how can you be committed to it? Why bother? How is believing in silly miracles any different than believing that Moshe heard the words of God and passed it on to us, the chosen few? And if it is all made up or loosely based on a true story which we are not to take literally, then why bother with it at all? He might say that it leads to a better life but go explain that to a 20-year-old. Again, not asking to be critical, I honestly don't get his position or how he can remain committed with his rational thinking.
You should start by defining what it means to believe Torah is from G-d. Different observant Jews would describe what they believe differently.
Then you might want to think about what belief is really worth, anyway?
Believing something and it being actually real or true are not related logically, because of the lack of evidence (thus the belief.)
I think it is called the appeal to belief fallacy - an error in thinking (or logic) that is at the core of all religions.
You're right, its not a line at all, its a spectrum. As you get to either end of the spectrum you reach difficulties.
So does he believe that the Torah is divine? Does he beleive in angels? Prophets? If yes, I'm sorry to tell you that it's kinda irrational, and if that is his position, why call yourself rational. There is no question that the most rational way of thinking would be agnosticism but he considers himself to be a rational orthadox jew and to me, that is an oxymoron.
Rabbi Slifkin, if you are reading this, I would appreciate it if you would reply. Again, not being critical but I honestly would like to understand your philosophy.
he wrote a book on it, funnily enough entitled 'rationalism vs mysticism'... i'm sure it will answer your questions
Rav Saadiah Gaon wrote rules on how to understand Torah passages that seem to contradict common sense. No one accused him of being a kofer.
Jews do it - be rational and committed. Irrational can sometimes come across as a flight away from being real. It can border on delusional. It always gave me the idea that Judaism was an escapist sham, and G-d simply the religious charlatan’s product for sale. Being observant - the acid test of old - is much more subtle. Less of a child’s mindset.
I have a friend who is a non believer - more than one. Married, children, never cheating on their wives. Why never cheat? Because they made “the commitment” not to. Ethics are a commitment too. Not a religious one built on a perverse escape hatch of a commitment to irrational.
So proud of you, Tikvah! Continued hatzlacha!
Nice.
I recently read about a similar endeavor for guys to join the US Navy. It could be done.
PS thanks for the article, and expressing huge appreciation... a complete Kiddush Hashem....
כל הכבוד! I wish myself to have such children!! I wanted to ask concerning שומר נגיעה. Why is it an importance practice to you? Did you always do it? Is it an important part of your identity as a “dosit “ ? Thanks! And כל הכבוד again!
Its straight up הלכה. One cant touch a woman forbidden to them and Nida counts. Single girls arent טובל, so theyre all בגדר נידה.
Nonsence! Stam touching is a harchoko between a husband and ishto niddah. It does NOT apply to stam niddoh who is not a spouse. Once it is not a spouse we are into derech chibboh and hanhogos tovos.
All the 'raid' b'yeshivish about taking a spouse's pulse etc is only ishto niddoh. Not stam ishoh niddoh, perferctly pemissable for a charedi doctor to take her pulse (and they do, or would except the technology had advanced so no touching needed).
Go learn. If you think differently, ask how all the very charedi professionals can squash on a subway train with all sorts of different genders. To be avoided as much as possible, obvioiusly, but no issur.
If its not דרך חיבה its very different. The context of being shomer or not is generally דרך חיבה.
I can look it up again but לא תקרבו is touching (דרך חיבה) as well as ייחוד. Anything which comes close to immorality
Indeed. But stam touching is not derech chiboh. As I wrote. Your statement below is wrong. You can touch a woman forbidden to you.
"One cant touch a woman forbidden to them and Nida counts. Single girls arent טובל, so theyre all בגדר נידה
Then i was reffering to intentional touching בדרך חיבה. The context was that someone asked Tikva why shes shomer. I dont think he understood her to mean that she wont sit next to a man on a bus out of fear of brushing past him.
Along with קלות ראש.
אבן העזר כא
A doctor has a Heter of טרוד במלאכתו
That is a concept connected to chashash hirhurim or histaklus. Nothing to do with negiah per se.
A doctor doesn't need that heter, it is not derech chibah period. And if the doctor is the husband, and his wife is a niddoh, whether the harchokas niddah do not permit him to take the pulse is a machlokas poskim.
It should be noted that the full term the shach uses is דרך חיבת ביאה which is not slapping five or even hugging as a friend it would need to be explicitly sexual. ( I'm full on shomer because thats more practical for me but as a matter of halacha...)
Hi, that’s why I am asking: because for me it is not “straight up Halacha”. דרך חיבה is more common sense than Halacha.
Ok. We must have very different pre-conceived notions regarding halacha and its authority. Glad your common sense leads you towards the halacha.
Thanks
The Hebrew word "l'hithgayes" has g-y-s as a root, but it does not mean "drafted." that's what the government does to grow the army. Y'all mean "enlisted." Maybe i'll be able to read this when this basic but repetitive error is corrected.
That is a pretty dick attitude. If you (obviously) understand what she means, maybe just offer correction respectfully without the snark.
so when your sarcasm detector starts working, you'll be able to re-read my comment.
Admitting sarcasm doesn’t make your comment any less snarky or more respectful…
it makes the criticism easier to digest when accompanied with ironic humor. sometimes just being curious is not sufficient. it's also important to be chilled out.
You refer to “this error” as though this is not the first time you have heard it.
Just out of curiosity, do English-speaking Israelis commonly use “draft” as a kind of slang for “enlist”?
"When my daughter surprised my wife and I..."
... my wife and *me*.
"Housecleaning" aside, this was a fantastic post.