Inherent in the idea that chareidi learners are complementary to those who serve in the army is also a delegitimization of the learning of hesder men. (My inclination, as a 53-year old Teaneck resident, was to write "hesder boys," but they are men in the sense of איש, warriors and מוסרי נפש in both the realms of Torah and military bravery.)
Conscription is slavery. Taxation is armed robbery. Even if everyone became a soldier we'd still have enemies attacking us because of the purity of arms doctrine.
Why waste your time with him he’s obviously messhuginah. Or loco en cabesa either way he’s obviously also antisocial enough to not understand the necessity of taxes so he probably belongs living in a cave by himself. Definition of a troll.
Oh, of course—conscription isn't slavery. It’s just a mandatory unpaid internship with guns, enforced by prison time if you politely decline. Totally different. Especially for Hesder guys, who get the deluxe package: half the indentured servitude, all the ideological guilt-tripping.
And taxation? No no, that’s not armed robbery. It’s a voluntary contribution, generously extracted at gunpoint to fund all kinds of vital necessities—like perks for politicians, inflated defense budgets, and failing bureaucracies. Some communities get crumbs, others get the whole cake, but hey—at least we all get to feel like we’re contributing!
And yes, armies are for defense. Except when they’re used to enforce political conformity, protect bad policy, or act like moral arbiters of who counts as a “good citizen.” But don’t worry—if you question any of this, there’s always a well-paid pundit or a government spokesperson ready to explain why your skepticism is actually a threat to national security.
But hey, if you squint hard enough and chant “democracy” three times, maybe it’ll all start to look like freedom.
Your comment has nothing to do with Israel and its conscription and taxation policies. It has to do with all conscription and all taxation. There's a book about this, it's called "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", by Robert A. Heinlein. The fact that you personally are a hardline libertarian has no bearing on the fact that the govt. does in fact need money to run, and the army does in fact need soldiers to fight.
“If you send your son to a yeshiva, then I will go to the army!”
I'm guessing that he was parroting a talking point from his yeshiva. I heard the same type of thing at my baal tshuva Haredi yeshiva 30+ years ago. The argument is something like this...
The country needs citizens that carry the burden of Torah study (so that we are worthy of divine protection) in addition to carrying the burden of military service. We'd be happy to switch places if that's what they want.
There's not enough time in the day to respond to all of the fallacies of this demagoguery. For me, the fundamental problem is that it is totally insincere. The Haredi world avoids military service because they can get away with it without any direct bad consequences to their sector. They're not concerned with the country or the wider community or even the medium to long term crisis brewing in their own sector. They do it because they have an effective political voting block that enables it. Everything else is a song and dance.
Of course, this entire "debate" takes as a given that certain people are entitled to "learn" based on birth and certain people aren't on the same principle.
I'm surprised that a learned person who has contributed many learned comments should think I'm commenting on more than the narrow issue that I write about. Nachum said that birth is a factor. I say no, they welcome converts. Elsewhere in these comments Yehoshua says, “I can tell you that I can off the top of my head think of 4 such families [that became Chareidi] whose fathers learned in hesder yeshivot that live within a two minute walk from me.” Those would be the children of converts. Chareidism maintains an open door policy for these types without regard to birth.
Funding charedi yeshivot out of Zionist funds (both Israeli government and WZO) is bad enough, Eretz HaKodesh wants to fund *American* students learning in charedi places.
"Sheer vileness" What is in fact vile is the haredi leadership's demand that every other sector of Jews in Israel support their lifestyle not only with their treasure, but with their blood and their children's. Oh, and on top of that, we must give them our unconditional approval for it.
This may be a pillar of Israeli haredi ideology, but they have no right to demand anyone else comply with it, let alone consent or love them for it.
The clueless one here is the writer of this post. He seems to believe that the only way someone can see matters differently than he does is if they don't really understand the facts. Get a clue. There are plenty of people who know the same facts as you, yet, believe it or not, disagree with your conclusions.
Without giving away too many personal details, I know someone who went to a hesder yeshiva, is currently a rebbi in a hesder yeshiva, and lives in a Dati-Leumi community, who nevertheless sends his children to chareidi schools. Bais Yaakov for the girls, and yeshiva/no army for the boys. Do you think that is because he is unaware of what hesder yeshivas are? Or, just maybe, he is quite aware of what they are, and chose to raise his children differently despite that?
Once again, you seem incapable, or unwilling, to accept the possibility that people see things differently than you.
Enjoy this wonderful quote from David Foster Wallace:
A Democratic Spirit is one that combines rigor and humility, i.e., passionate conviction plus sedulous respect for the convictions of others. As any American knows, this is a very difficult spirit to cultivate and maintain, particularly when it comes to issues you feel strongly about. Equally tough is a D.S.’s criterion of 100 percent intellectual integrity — you have to be willing to look honestly at yourself and your motives for believing what you believe, and to do it more or less continually.
This kind of stuff is advanced U.S. citizenship. A true Democratic Spirit is up there with religious faith and emotional maturity and all those other top-of-the-Maslow-Pyramid-type qualities people spend their whole lives working on. A Democratic Spirit’s constituent rigor and humility and honesty are in fact so hard to maintain on certain issues that it’s almost irresistibly tempting to fall in with some established dogmatic camp and to follow that camp’s line on the issue and to let your position harden within the camp and become inflexible and to believe that any other camp is either evil or insane and to spend all your time and energy trying to shout over them.
I am quite confident that you are wrong, and that you have zero evidence to back up your assertion. If you do have evidence for that, please supply it.
In Ramat Beit Shemesh, for example, there are many many people who grew up in the modern Orthodox/YU world who are raising their families chareidi. I doubt that there is a minyan who grew up chareidi who are raising their families as Dati Leumi.
I know that. But many MO/YU people attended yeshivot hesder, are fully aware of what those yeshivot and that community are about, and chose to raise their families in a different way. There are far many more of people like that than chareidim who are raising their families as Dati Leumi.
I don't know what you mean by "graduates." Do hesder yeshivot have graduations? I also do not know what you mean by "many." But I can tell you that I can off the top of my head think of 4 such families whose fathers learned in hesder yeshivot that live within a two minute walk from me.
It's not proportionate but it definitely exists. It's sure you can find more outside of RBS. I hear יהודה ושומרון has more. The average hesder yeshiva with some Americas will have a few. Maybe they aren't from the heart of Lakewood but definitely there are people who went to black hat schools in the US who chose the hesder path. I was unusual but not alone.
However point taken re the many MO/YU who go on to raise their family in the Charedi system. Although, i'm not sure the end result is that those families are fully integrated into the Israeli charedi world. ie how many of their next generation end up going to the army etc...
would be interested in any statistical or anecdotal info
"I’m continually struck by how many well-meaning people, especially in the United States, do not understand the situation in Israel."
I don't find this surprising, though. It isn't possible to fully understand another society without being a part of it. This is one of many reasons why diaspora Jews should keep out of Israeli politics, and Israelis should keep out of diaspora politics.
Here in the UK, Eretz Hakodesh have done a huge amount of advertising, they have raised their profile massively over the last five years. Most of the propaganda that they put out can be dissembled easily by anyone that cares to understand the nuances. They go so far as to not even mention the WZO and make no mention at all of the mechanism of what they are trying to achieve and how.
The most worrying thing of all, is that the UK elections are coming up in June and Mizrachi have not said a word. There is no voice in the Jewish community other then Eretz Hakodesh.
Thank you for continuing to speak out so eloquently on these issues. I have read and greatly appreciated your books especially the one on creation. The voice I hear in all your writings is one of crying out for unity- not necessarily thinking the same but caring and acting towards the common good of the Am Yisrael.
One of the problems of forwarding is that those who don’t want to hear won’t. And BTW, you’d be amazed at how many people are voting, and voting for RZ. I learn with a very Chassidish/Yeshivish group who all voted after acknowledging that there was “daas Torah” not to do so. In this case, there are enough opposing opinions that people can actually use some common sense. Kinda reminds me of people who hear a psak not to use a smart phone, then do it anyway when the need arises. There are/is more support here for the Chayalim than you’d think.
The idea that Charedim are a bunch of bots who blindly follow daas torah is a comforting thought to those who don't want to allow the Torah to teach them how to act. They do what they want, and when called out on it, they disingenuously argue, "I don't believe in da'as torah."
If they had to confront the truth, that Charedim are not blind followers, and there is a real value system behind their lives, their cushion is flattened. They will have to deal with the truth - their lives are based on goyishe ideals and their personal wishes. They are not the idealists their nemeses are.
What is the "ideal" of making everyone else shoulder the burden of national defense on your behalf without your community having any need to contribute?
What percentage of Mizrachi's 2020 dollars from WZO were disbursed to Hesder yeshivot or to soldier related programs (e.g., lone soldiers, physically injured soldiers, soldiers suffering PTSD and needing emotional and spiritual care etc.)?
We sent this question to Mizrachi several weeks ago and we have not received any response.
**"Ah, Yes, Let’s All March Off the Cliff Together – Equality!"**
Let’s review the glorious logic presented:
> *“Let’s put down the weapons, you’ll see how far your Americanism brings us.”*
Right. Because when I said **“stop forcing people into suicide missions,”** what I *really* meant was “give Gaza a hug and hope for the best.” Thanks for the deep insight, Sun Tzu.
Also—newsflash—I’m **not American**. But nice try reducing a principled position on human dignity and freedom to "imported ideology." I suppose next you’ll tell me that objecting to slavery is a *Western liberal mindset* too?
> *“There’s a huge landmass for people like you.”*
Aha! The ol’ **“If you don’t like it, leave”** argument. Nothing screams confidence in your values like immediately suggesting emigration. I guess anyone who questions national policy must obviously be allergic to passports.
But let’s be honest: the last thing you actually want is people *like me* to leave. Because if everyone who thought for themselves packed up and left, who would be left to fix the mess? You? With your PowerPoint slides on forced equality and recycled slogans?
> *“We need the draft because we’re surrounded by enemies.”*
Sure. And I suppose we’re surrounded by enemies because they’re jealous of our morality? No—we’re surrounded by enemies because **we refuse to defeat them**. Because every war ends with handcuffs on our soldiers and new humanitarian gestures to those trying to kill us.
If you really cared about defense, you’d demand victory. But instead, you demand more **equal suffering**—a nation of martyrs, not defenders.
> *“American mindsets are the last thing Israel needs.”*
Really? You mean like *property rights, limited government, personal liberty, and due process*? Yes, let’s definitely make sure none of that taints our sacred tribal collectivism.
And by the way—**why do you think the government owns my body?**
If it doesn’t own your bank account, your living room, or your dog, how on earth did it get rights over your *flesh*?
Answer: it didn’t. You just *pretend* it does, because it makes the sacrifices feel meaningful. You want everyone to suffer equally so your pain feels justified. It’s bitterness, dressed up as patriotism.
But here’s the truth: **Real strength doesn’t come from equal slavery. It comes from free people choosing what they’re willing to fight for.**
And I choose to fight for a society where **no one owns anyone.** Not even the State.
"But let’s be honest: the last thing you actually want is people *like me* to leave. Because if everyone who thought for themselves packed up and left, who would be left to fix the mess? "
Messianic megalomania.
You're complaints about defense strategy don't negate the need for an army. Even an army run by radical leftists is better than nothing. What you are proposing is that until you (or a like-minded person) is appointed command-in-chief, we should ensure that burdensome conscription should be imposed on everyone but a certain community. The unequal distribution of that burden means that the army is less effective. Are you in favor in the army being less effective? Or are you merely stuck in messianic thinking?
"And I choose to fight for a society where **no one owns anyone.**"
Go ahead and dream on about your libertarian utopia, where there are no subsidies, tax breaks, welfare, socialized medicine and undeserved service exemptions.
Based on the uncoherent rant you just spit forward, You might want to seek professional help. It would be a plus for other to make out what you are saying, or your logic.
**“Ah, the tired fallback of someone who read something uncomfortable and couldn’t refute a single point: declare it ‘incoherent,’ accuse the author of being mentally unwell, and call it a day.**
Let me help you out.
If you truly found my writing incoherent, you’d have pointed out what didn’t make sense. You didn’t. Because you can’t. You didn’t even try.
If you genuinely thought my logic was flawed, you’d have addressed an argument. But you didn’t. Because you’re not here to discuss—you’re here to posture.
Calling something incoherent is not a rebuttal. It’s intellectual cowardice.
Telling someone to ‘seek help’ when they challenge your sacred cows isn’t clever. It’s lazy and cruel—and worse, it’s predictable.
If this is the best you can offer, you’ve already conceded the debate.
Next time, try reading with your brain instead of your ego.”
"If you truly found my writing incoherent, you’d have pointed out what didn’t make sense. "
Nonsense is nonsense, but the rigorous analysis of nonsense is scholarship. Perhaps he doesn't have the academic skills, or strong stomach, to counter your well written nonsense with reason.
What I am tiring to enlighten you to - Lets take a few sentences you started out your "well thought" out rant
**"Ah, Yes, Let’s All "March Off the Cliff" Together – Equality!"**
*“Let’s put down the weapons, you’ll see how far your Americanism brings us.”*
** What I *really* meant was “give Gaza a hug and hope for the best.” Thanks for the deep insight, Sun Tzu.
You wat to say something - try to say I so normal people can understand it . This rant look like it comes from a compromised mind.
"Mentally compromised" generally means a person's mental or emotional well-being is impaired or weakened, potentially due to a mental health condition, trauma, or other factors, leading to difficulties in thinking,
The solution is simple: abolish the draft. We have conscription and the IDF forbids actually winning. No one has any moral authority to demand my kids go on suicide missions just because yours do. Statism is a plague and conscription is slavery.
1. I'm not American. 2. Who said put down the weapons? 3. American mindsets is exactly what we need in Israel: crony capitalism and socialism does not work. 4. Again, why do you presume the government owns my body?
The existence of "crony capitalism and socialism", nor the existence of an army that doesn't follow your strategic whims, legitimate or not, does not negate the army's need for more manpower, especially from those charedim who are not learning full time.
Plus any reforms and removal of "crony capitalism and socialism" will just motivate you to whine and complain about other things. So if socialism goes out the window, and Charedim would have to pay equals taxes, and won't receive subsidies, the gov't will be condemned as cruel and anti-Torah and not deserving of army service.
This back-and-forth clearly isn’t going anywhere, so I’ll end with this:
The existence of crony capitalism or flawed socialism—just like the existence of an army that doesn't match your ideal strategic outlook—doesn’t negate the *fact* that the army needs manpower. Especially from Charedim who aren’t learning full-time and are otherwise idle.
But let’s be honest: no matter what reforms happen, you’ve already made up your mind that people like me will always be the problem. If cronyism were removed and socialism ended, you'd just shift the goalposts. Suddenly, expecting Charedim to pay equal taxes or receive no subsidies would be framed as *“cruel,”* *“anti-Torah,”* or evidence that the state doesn’t deserve military service.
It’s a convenient narrative that ensures you always get to feel righteous, and others always remain suspect.
Inherent in the idea that chareidi learners are complementary to those who serve in the army is also a delegitimization of the learning of hesder men. (My inclination, as a 53-year old Teaneck resident, was to write "hesder boys," but they are men in the sense of איש, warriors and מוסרי נפש in both the realms of Torah and military bravery.)
Everyonee should equally share the burden of defense, as well as wok and pay taxes.
These hareidim will bankrupt the country. Their way of life must change.
Conscription is slavery. Taxation is armed robbery. Even if everyone became a soldier we'd still have enemies attacking us because of the purity of arms doctrine.
Conscription isn't slavery. (Especially for a Hesder Torah scholar?)
Taxation isn't armed robbery. (Which communities are victimized by such so-called "armed robbery"? Which are the beneficiaries?)
An army is meant to defend the nation, and does not become superfluous because you don't approve of their ideology.
Why waste your time with him he’s obviously messhuginah. Or loco en cabesa either way he’s obviously also antisocial enough to not understand the necessity of taxes so he probably belongs living in a cave by himself. Definition of a troll.
Oh, of course—conscription isn't slavery. It’s just a mandatory unpaid internship with guns, enforced by prison time if you politely decline. Totally different. Especially for Hesder guys, who get the deluxe package: half the indentured servitude, all the ideological guilt-tripping.
And taxation? No no, that’s not armed robbery. It’s a voluntary contribution, generously extracted at gunpoint to fund all kinds of vital necessities—like perks for politicians, inflated defense budgets, and failing bureaucracies. Some communities get crumbs, others get the whole cake, but hey—at least we all get to feel like we’re contributing!
And yes, armies are for defense. Except when they’re used to enforce political conformity, protect bad policy, or act like moral arbiters of who counts as a “good citizen.” But don’t worry—if you question any of this, there’s always a well-paid pundit or a government spokesperson ready to explain why your skepticism is actually a threat to national security.
But hey, if you squint hard enough and chant “democracy” three times, maybe it’ll all start to look like freedom.
Your comment has nothing to do with Israel and its conscription and taxation policies. It has to do with all conscription and all taxation. There's a book about this, it's called "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", by Robert A. Heinlein. The fact that you personally are a hardline libertarian has no bearing on the fact that the govt. does in fact need money to run, and the army does in fact need soldiers to fight.
“If you send your son to a yeshiva, then I will go to the army!”
I'm guessing that he was parroting a talking point from his yeshiva. I heard the same type of thing at my baal tshuva Haredi yeshiva 30+ years ago. The argument is something like this...
The country needs citizens that carry the burden of Torah study (so that we are worthy of divine protection) in addition to carrying the burden of military service. We'd be happy to switch places if that's what they want.
There's not enough time in the day to respond to all of the fallacies of this demagoguery. For me, the fundamental problem is that it is totally insincere. The Haredi world avoids military service because they can get away with it without any direct bad consequences to their sector. They're not concerned with the country or the wider community or even the medium to long term crisis brewing in their own sector. They do it because they have an effective political voting block that enables it. Everything else is a song and dance.
Of course, this entire "debate" takes as a given that certain people are entitled to "learn" based on birth and certain people aren't on the same principle.
But where feasible Chareidim recruit from DL families to their yeshivas.
Don't be obtuse.
I'm surprised that a learned person who has contributed many learned comments should think I'm commenting on more than the narrow issue that I write about. Nachum said that birth is a factor. I say no, they welcome converts. Elsewhere in these comments Yehoshua says, “I can tell you that I can off the top of my head think of 4 such families [that became Chareidi] whose fathers learned in hesder yeshivot that live within a two minute walk from me.” Those would be the children of converts. Chareidism maintains an open door policy for these types without regard to birth.
Great piece, well written and argued
Agreed 👍
Funding charedi yeshivot out of Zionist funds (both Israeli government and WZO) is bad enough, Eretz HaKodesh wants to fund *American* students learning in charedi places.
We get it. Money for their institutions is the haredi sector's equivalent to PA's stipends for terrorists with blood on their hands.
Wow we've gone to a new level of sheer vileness. Yeshiva students are akin to terrorists with blood on their hands..... Nice
"Sheer vileness" What is in fact vile is the haredi leadership's demand that every other sector of Jews in Israel support their lifestyle not only with their treasure, but with their blood and their children's. Oh, and on top of that, we must give them our unconditional approval for it.
This may be a pillar of Israeli haredi ideology, but they have no right to demand anyone else comply with it, let alone consent or love them for it.
The clueless one here is the writer of this post. He seems to believe that the only way someone can see matters differently than he does is if they don't really understand the facts. Get a clue. There are plenty of people who know the same facts as you, yet, believe it or not, disagree with your conclusions.
Without giving away too many personal details, I know someone who went to a hesder yeshiva, is currently a rebbi in a hesder yeshiva, and lives in a Dati-Leumi community, who nevertheless sends his children to chareidi schools. Bais Yaakov for the girls, and yeshiva/no army for the boys. Do you think that is because he is unaware of what hesder yeshivas are? Or, just maybe, he is quite aware of what they are, and chose to raise his children differently despite that?
He's aware, and he chooses to adopt a selfish path. I know many people like that.
Once again, you seem incapable, or unwilling, to accept the possibility that people see things differently than you.
Enjoy this wonderful quote from David Foster Wallace:
A Democratic Spirit is one that combines rigor and humility, i.e., passionate conviction plus sedulous respect for the convictions of others. As any American knows, this is a very difficult spirit to cultivate and maintain, particularly when it comes to issues you feel strongly about. Equally tough is a D.S.’s criterion of 100 percent intellectual integrity — you have to be willing to look honestly at yourself and your motives for believing what you believe, and to do it more or less continually.
This kind of stuff is advanced U.S. citizenship. A true Democratic Spirit is up there with religious faith and emotional maturity and all those other top-of-the-Maslow-Pyramid-type qualities people spend their whole lives working on. A Democratic Spirit’s constituent rigor and humility and honesty are in fact so hard to maintain on certain issues that it’s almost irresistibly tempting to fall in with some established dogmatic camp and to follow that camp’s line on the issue and to let your position harden within the camp and become inflexible and to believe that any other camp is either evil or insane and to spend all your time and energy trying to shout over them.
So he is the exception that proves the rule.
If anything there are more people who left the charedi world to raise their families in the DL world
I am quite confident that you are wrong, and that you have zero evidence to back up your assertion. If you do have evidence for that, please supply it.
In Ramat Beit Shemesh, for example, there are many many people who grew up in the modern Orthodox/YU world who are raising their families chareidi. I doubt that there is a minyan who grew up chareidi who are raising their families as Dati Leumi.
MO/YU is not Dati Leumi!!!!
I know that. But many MO/YU people attended yeshivot hesder, are fully aware of what those yeshivot and that community are about, and chose to raise their families in a different way. There are far many more of people like that than chareidim who are raising their families as Dati Leumi.
I do not remotely believe that there are many graduates of hesder who send their kids to the charedi system.
Much of shaalavim and KBY. Even Hakotel. If you live in RBS, Rabbi Myers went to gush and now sends his kids to mesivta beit Shemesh.
I don't know what you mean by "graduates." Do hesder yeshivot have graduations? I also do not know what you mean by "many." But I can tell you that I can off the top of my head think of 4 such families whose fathers learned in hesder yeshivot that live within a two minute walk from me.
It's not proportionate but it definitely exists. It's sure you can find more outside of RBS. I hear יהודה ושומרון has more. The average hesder yeshiva with some Americas will have a few. Maybe they aren't from the heart of Lakewood but definitely there are people who went to black hat schools in the US who chose the hesder path. I was unusual but not alone.
There are certainly people like that. But I do not think that it is more than the number that went in the other direction.
To that I agree.
MO/YU is not Dati Leumi.
However point taken re the many MO/YU who go on to raise their family in the Charedi system. Although, i'm not sure the end result is that those families are fully integrated into the Israeli charedi world. ie how many of their next generation end up going to the army etc...
would be interested in any statistical or anecdotal info
Some % of them do end up going to the army, but that does not mean that they join the DL world.
"I’m continually struck by how many well-meaning people, especially in the United States, do not understand the situation in Israel."
I don't find this surprising, though. It isn't possible to fully understand another society without being a part of it. This is one of many reasons why diaspora Jews should keep out of Israeli politics, and Israelis should keep out of diaspora politics.
You really like saying that. Why?
Too many Americans are willing to intervene in Israeli politics, and vice versa.
“though they seem to specialize in it, especially if they are from Baltimore”.
Wait, our #1 claim to fame is protecting sexual predators from prosecution. What did we do to get a mention here?
Lol
I think he may have the current head of the OU in mind.
That makes sense.
No, he has the current head of Ner Israel in mind!
He's mostly a standard Charedi Rabbi. Rabbi Hauer would position himself differently even though he is really Charedi lite.
That makes sense
What about the O-U? They seem to have really gone over to the "other side", by acknowledging the validity of the Haredi position.
My occasional letters have never elicited any sort of substantive response.
Is there any way to apply pressure?
The OU actually endorses Mizrachi in the WZO elections.
More than endorse… they are an allied organization that stands to gain from mizrachi votes. As does YU and Touro
Here in the UK, Eretz Hakodesh have done a huge amount of advertising, they have raised their profile massively over the last five years. Most of the propaganda that they put out can be dissembled easily by anyone that cares to understand the nuances. They go so far as to not even mention the WZO and make no mention at all of the mechanism of what they are trying to achieve and how.
The most worrying thing of all, is that the UK elections are coming up in June and Mizrachi have not said a word. There is no voice in the Jewish community other then Eretz Hakodesh.
Thank you for continuing to speak out so eloquently on these issues. I have read and greatly appreciated your books especially the one on creation. The voice I hear in all your writings is one of crying out for unity- not necessarily thinking the same but caring and acting towards the common good of the Am Yisrael.
One of the problems of forwarding is that those who don’t want to hear won’t. And BTW, you’d be amazed at how many people are voting, and voting for RZ. I learn with a very Chassidish/Yeshivish group who all voted after acknowledging that there was “daas Torah” not to do so. In this case, there are enough opposing opinions that people can actually use some common sense. Kinda reminds me of people who hear a psak not to use a smart phone, then do it anyway when the need arises. There are/is more support here for the Chayalim than you’d think.
The idea that Charedim are a bunch of bots who blindly follow daas torah is a comforting thought to those who don't want to allow the Torah to teach them how to act. They do what they want, and when called out on it, they disingenuously argue, "I don't believe in da'as torah."
If they had to confront the truth, that Charedim are not blind followers, and there is a real value system behind their lives, their cushion is flattened. They will have to deal with the truth - their lives are based on goyishe ideals and their personal wishes. They are not the idealists their nemeses are.
What is the "ideal" of making everyone else shoulder the burden of national defense on your behalf without your community having any need to contribute?
So by process of elimination, they must be mindless bots. When the mindless bots theory is busted, what's your next option?
Are you speaking for yourself?
What is the real value system that you are referring to?
Great article, but here's my question:
What percentage of Mizrachi's 2020 dollars from WZO were disbursed to Hesder yeshivot or to soldier related programs (e.g., lone soldiers, physically injured soldiers, soldiers suffering PTSD and needing emotional and spiritual care etc.)?
We sent this question to Mizrachi several weeks ago and we have not received any response.
Maybe you should ask them for a copy of their annual report or some other similar document. Then you can research it yourself.
Be sure to let us know what you discovered.
**"Ah, Yes, Let’s All March Off the Cliff Together – Equality!"**
Let’s review the glorious logic presented:
> *“Let’s put down the weapons, you’ll see how far your Americanism brings us.”*
Right. Because when I said **“stop forcing people into suicide missions,”** what I *really* meant was “give Gaza a hug and hope for the best.” Thanks for the deep insight, Sun Tzu.
Also—newsflash—I’m **not American**. But nice try reducing a principled position on human dignity and freedom to "imported ideology." I suppose next you’ll tell me that objecting to slavery is a *Western liberal mindset* too?
> *“There’s a huge landmass for people like you.”*
Aha! The ol’ **“If you don’t like it, leave”** argument. Nothing screams confidence in your values like immediately suggesting emigration. I guess anyone who questions national policy must obviously be allergic to passports.
But let’s be honest: the last thing you actually want is people *like me* to leave. Because if everyone who thought for themselves packed up and left, who would be left to fix the mess? You? With your PowerPoint slides on forced equality and recycled slogans?
> *“We need the draft because we’re surrounded by enemies.”*
Sure. And I suppose we’re surrounded by enemies because they’re jealous of our morality? No—we’re surrounded by enemies because **we refuse to defeat them**. Because every war ends with handcuffs on our soldiers and new humanitarian gestures to those trying to kill us.
If you really cared about defense, you’d demand victory. But instead, you demand more **equal suffering**—a nation of martyrs, not defenders.
> *“American mindsets are the last thing Israel needs.”*
Really? You mean like *property rights, limited government, personal liberty, and due process*? Yes, let’s definitely make sure none of that taints our sacred tribal collectivism.
And by the way—**why do you think the government owns my body?**
If it doesn’t own your bank account, your living room, or your dog, how on earth did it get rights over your *flesh*?
Answer: it didn’t. You just *pretend* it does, because it makes the sacrifices feel meaningful. You want everyone to suffer equally so your pain feels justified. It’s bitterness, dressed up as patriotism.
But here’s the truth: **Real strength doesn’t come from equal slavery. It comes from free people choosing what they’re willing to fight for.**
And I choose to fight for a society where **no one owns anyone.** Not even the State.
"But let’s be honest: the last thing you actually want is people *like me* to leave. Because if everyone who thought for themselves packed up and left, who would be left to fix the mess? "
Messianic megalomania.
You're complaints about defense strategy don't negate the need for an army. Even an army run by radical leftists is better than nothing. What you are proposing is that until you (or a like-minded person) is appointed command-in-chief, we should ensure that burdensome conscription should be imposed on everyone but a certain community. The unequal distribution of that burden means that the army is less effective. Are you in favor in the army being less effective? Or are you merely stuck in messianic thinking?
"And I choose to fight for a society where **no one owns anyone.**"
Go ahead and dream on about your libertarian utopia, where there are no subsidies, tax breaks, welfare, socialized medicine and undeserved service exemptions.
Based on the uncoherent rant you just spit forward, You might want to seek professional help. It would be a plus for other to make out what you are saying, or your logic.
**“Ah, the tired fallback of someone who read something uncomfortable and couldn’t refute a single point: declare it ‘incoherent,’ accuse the author of being mentally unwell, and call it a day.**
Let me help you out.
If you truly found my writing incoherent, you’d have pointed out what didn’t make sense. You didn’t. Because you can’t. You didn’t even try.
If you genuinely thought my logic was flawed, you’d have addressed an argument. But you didn’t. Because you’re not here to discuss—you’re here to posture.
Calling something incoherent is not a rebuttal. It’s intellectual cowardice.
Telling someone to ‘seek help’ when they challenge your sacred cows isn’t clever. It’s lazy and cruel—and worse, it’s predictable.
If this is the best you can offer, you’ve already conceded the debate.
Next time, try reading with your brain instead of your ego.”
"If you truly found my writing incoherent, you’d have pointed out what didn’t make sense. "
Nonsense is nonsense, but the rigorous analysis of nonsense is scholarship. Perhaps he doesn't have the academic skills, or strong stomach, to counter your well written nonsense with reason.
You do realize you can say that for any comment. You may disagree but he made a point.
"You do realize you can say that for any comment."
But I don't. And I didn't.
What I am tiring to enlighten you to - Lets take a few sentences you started out your "well thought" out rant
**"Ah, Yes, Let’s All "March Off the Cliff" Together – Equality!"**
*“Let’s put down the weapons, you’ll see how far your Americanism brings us.”*
** What I *really* meant was “give Gaza a hug and hope for the best.” Thanks for the deep insight, Sun Tzu.
You wat to say something - try to say I so normal people can understand it . This rant look like it comes from a compromised mind.
"Mentally compromised" generally means a person's mental or emotional well-being is impaired or weakened, potentially due to a mental health condition, trauma, or other factors, leading to difficulties in thinking,
Whatever it is that you are smoking, does it have a haskachah and is it dairy, parve, and kosher for passover?
The solution is simple: abolish the draft. We have conscription and the IDF forbids actually winning. No one has any moral authority to demand my kids go on suicide missions just because yours do. Statism is a plague and conscription is slavery.
1. I'm not American. 2. Who said put down the weapons? 3. American mindsets is exactly what we need in Israel: crony capitalism and socialism does not work. 4. Again, why do you presume the government owns my body?
The existence of "crony capitalism and socialism", nor the existence of an army that doesn't follow your strategic whims, legitimate or not, does not negate the army's need for more manpower, especially from those charedim who are not learning full time.
Plus any reforms and removal of "crony capitalism and socialism" will just motivate you to whine and complain about other things. So if socialism goes out the window, and Charedim would have to pay equals taxes, and won't receive subsidies, the gov't will be condemned as cruel and anti-Torah and not deserving of army service.
This back-and-forth clearly isn’t going anywhere, so I’ll end with this:
The existence of crony capitalism or flawed socialism—just like the existence of an army that doesn't match your ideal strategic outlook—doesn’t negate the *fact* that the army needs manpower. Especially from Charedim who aren’t learning full-time and are otherwise idle.
But let’s be honest: no matter what reforms happen, you’ve already made up your mind that people like me will always be the problem. If cronyism were removed and socialism ended, you'd just shift the goalposts. Suddenly, expecting Charedim to pay equal taxes or receive no subsidies would be framed as *“cruel,”* *“anti-Torah,”* or evidence that the state doesn’t deserve military service.
It’s a convenient narrative that ensures you always get to feel righteous, and others always remain suspect.
I’m done here.