Better to sit in a Beis Midrash wasting one's life (admittedly non-productive and bored) than to go where you feel needed and productively contribute to the rest of society.
Why?
Because if you go where needed, it won't fly anymore to sit and gossip all day, all the while packing on the pounds in the coffee room.
Instead, you will have to be disciplined, physically fit, and exert yourself to your physical limits.
What a horrible thought!
Yup, it's religiously better to remain soft, lazy, selfish, unhealthy, and non-productive.
Bored? I happen to be an even bigger apikores! I am currently learning מנחות daily in a 3 man chavruta…..and we are having fun! (That’s is strictly forbidden and borders on kfira)😄
Torah learning is wonderful and can be the greatest pleasure and one of the most productive and worthwhile things one could do, but not for the target audience of this ad, for whom it's boring and unsatisfying.
(I tried posting this in response to Harold, but there seems to be some kind of glitch with my phone, so I'm just going to post in response to your message)
.רבי אברהם מן ההר מסכת נדרים דף מח
אבל מצות לימוד, שהוא ענין ציור הלב וידיעת האמת, עיקר הציווי הוא כדי לצייר האמת ולהתענג וליהנות במדע לשמח לבבו ושכלו, כדכתיב פקודי י"י ישרים משמחי לב. ומשום הכי אבל אסור לקרות בתורה ובנביאים ובכתובים, מפני שהם משמחים לבו על כרחו. הילכך לא שייך למימר במצות תלמוד דלא ניתן ליהנות, שעיקר מצותו היא ההנאה והתענוג במה שמשיג ומבין בלימודו.
אגלי טל מתוך ההקדמה
ומדי דברי זכור אזכור מה ששמעתי קצת בני אדם טועין מדרך השכל בענין לימוד תורה הקדושה ואמרו כי הלומד ומחדש חדושים ושמח ומתענג בלימודו אין זה לימוד תורה כל כך לשמה כמו אם היה לומד בפשיטות שאין לו מהלימוד שום תענוג והוא רק לשם מצוה. אבל הלומד ומתענג בלימודו הרי מתערב בלימודו גם הנאת עצמו. ובאמת זה טעות מפורסם. ואדרבא כי זה היא עיקר מצות לימוד התורה להיות שש ושמח ומתענג בלימודו ואז דברי תורה נבלעין בדמו. ומאחר שנהנה מדברי תורה הוא נעשה דבוק לתורה....
רבנו בחיי דברים כח,מז
תחת אשר לא עבדת את ה' אלהיך בשמחה. יאשימנו הכתוב בעבדו השי"ת ולא היתה העבודה בשמחה, לפי שחייב האדם על השמחה בהתעסקו במצות, והשמחה במעשה המצוה מצוה בפני עצמו, מלבד השכר שיש לו על המצוה יש לו שכר על השמחה, ועל כן יעניש בכאן למי שעובד עבודת המצוה כשלא עשאה בשמחה, ולכך צריך שיעשה אדם המצות בשמחה ובכוונה שלמה, וכן אמרו במדרש רות אלו היה יודע ראובן שהקב"ה מכתיב עליו (בראשית ל״ז:כ״א) וישמע ראובן ויצלהו מידם, בכתפו היה מוליכו לאביו, ואלו היה יודע אהרן שהקב"ה מכתיב עליו (שמות ד׳:י״ד) וראך ושמח בלבו, בתופים ובמחולות היה יוצא לקראתו, ואלו היה יודע בועז שהקב"ה מכתיב עליו (רות ב׳:י״ד) ותאכל ותשבע ותותר, עגלים פטומים היה מאכילה
The Government is simply allowing Chabad to do community Service. By Chabad providing services to the Jewish nation, Food in way out places, Spiritual help, a place to rest on a business trip (for those that are R"L working for their piece of bread and not taking from others). That is Community service.
Any Frum Yeshiva boy can do the same, they were offered that - Working in a hospital, or old age home. Be a tutor to children that are having a hard time in Yeshivas. Even help boys that are OTD to make them proper citizens.
Buy NO these frummers want to do NOTHING. Remember some big, or huge, Rosh Yeshiva said Yeshiva boys are not changing diaper in Hospitals.
"But NO these frummers want to do NOTHING." That's right. You got it! The Chachmey HaTorah caved to the demands of the lazy Charedi community, and the entire reason for their ban on joining the IDF is because the Charedim want to do nothing.
Can I ask you from where you know the whole cheshbon of the Chachmey HaTorah behind their ban on joining the IDF?
The Chachney Hatorah did not at all cave to the demands of the Charedim.
THEY were the ones that push the idea - not to serve in the army.
Asking about do I know the entire chesbon of the Chachmey Hatorah?
No I don't know the entire cheshbon. All I know is the revealed part, Now 21 excuses, too weak to hold a gun, not milches mizitvah, the Gov't wants to shmad them, the food is not kosher enough, etc. etc. I am sure there are more. I will A'H keep track of them just as soon as they come out.
The bottom line is they are DRAFT DODGERS and have excuses, excuses, and more excuses. I seriously hate to bust your bubble - the REAL Chachmey Hatorah are the Dati Leumi Rebbes that walk step in step, arm in arm, with the rest of k'lal Yisroel. Hope you are not too upset to finally find this out.
"I seriously hate to bust your bubble - the REAL Chachmey Hatorah are the Dati Leumi Rebbes that walk step in step, arm in arm, with the rest of k'lal Yisroel. Hope you are not too upset to finally find this out."
I seriously hate to burst your bubble, but it is a recent religious-zionist and non-Jewish invention to "walk step in step, arm in arm with" people who reject part of the Torah (at best), or the whole Torah, or even spit on the Torah, or reject HKB"H. That was never the Torah way. I hope you are not too upset to finally find this out.
(2)
"The Chachmey Hatorah did not at all cave to the demands of the Charedim. THEY were the ones that push the idea - not to serve in the army."
I was not referring to rabbis who are n'guim by a nationalistic ideology that is completely foreign to the Torah.
(3)
"Asking about do I know the entire chesbon of the Chachmey Hatorah? No I don't know the entire cheshbon. All I know is the revealed part, ..."
Just as I thought. By your own admission you are slandering Chachmey HaTorah and an entire community of 1 million Jews (plus their supporters in chutz la'Aretz) based on incomplete and unreliable hearsay alone. BTW, much of what you call "the revealed part" was never even said by the Chachmey HaTorah, but incorrectly inferred by others.
(4)
"Now 21 excuses, too weak to hold a gun, not milches mizitvah, the Gov't wants to shmad them, ..."
See response #3 immediately above.
(4)
The bottom line is they are DRAFT DODGERS and have excuses, excuses, and more excuses."
If you want to think of following Chachmey HaTorah as an "excuse" that's between you and HKB"H. If you want to slander people based on that perversion then you are making your situation far worse.
I agree that this message is pretty messed up. Apparently, those making it feel the spiritual value of remaining in Yeshiva is so great that they're willing to appeal to the most base needs of those thinking about leaving it. Surely, they're not trying to sell Yeshiva life as one of relative ease; just sobering them up to the fact that they also won't find that ease in צה"ל.
Still - it's terrible חינוך, a gross 'חילול ה, and a grave insult to those who genuinely sacrifice for the nation via צה"ל. Perhaps indeed it was made by a troll ...
It's not just the messed up message, tho it's that too; the complete lack of self awareness of how stupid they come across is what's particularly jarring.
My wondering if it might be fake is because there clearly was not attempt to portray Yeshiva life positively. This Rav just growls "Lilmod!", robotically.
Yes I agree this definitely seems like a fake, perhaps produced by Doctor Natan himself. It is an attempt to make fun of those "stuck" in Yeshiva who would rather be in the army.
Obviously, this bachor doesn't "really love" being there. Just like many in the army don't "really love" being there either! At the same time, he's not anti-learning, just complaining about the pressure and discipline. To which this ad-maker is trying to tell him that THIS is not a reason to go to the army. Perhaps if he would have spoken about army service ideologically, there wouldn't have been any push-back.
All he's saying is that the calls for him to enlist are annoying and he may cave to them. He's not complaining about the "pressure" and "discipline" of learning at all, not the least because there is none. The whole point of the video is that learning is easy and army is hard.
Incorrect, Nachum. He begins with a whine about the עומס, which is followed by the growling Rav's monotone pressure to stop disturbing the atmosphere and get back to learning. Nothing about it being easy!
Precisely. That boy wants it easier, but the Rav doesnt let him off the hook... and the little reality-shock vision about what goes on in the army doesn't either. So now, you're left to choose which path of SELFLESS Jewish devotion will you choose?
Correction. One is completely selfless protecting your homeland and fellow Jews.
The other is completely and utterly selfish. Only justified retroactively as being good for klal Yisrael but in truth it’s done for completely selfish reasons. Material and spiritual.
Re. spiritual values - its understood by all who are in that system. Even passively participating in the great mitzvah of t"t, and quietly supporting the atmosphere of the proactive learners, is considered a tremendous זכות. NOT as a picnic, but as being part of a SPIRITUAL army. I know that will bug you, but that's the basic mindset. Haval to besmirch it to gain debate points.
Disagree. It's addressing those who are CONSIDERING to get out of the system FOR AN EASIER LIFE, via the army. A bucket of ice water is then thrown at them. Army is not a ticket out of a tough noble life. It may even be degradingly difficult.
There is nothing ironic about the name of this organisation. The fraternity that they feel is towards other Charedim. The rest of the Jewish People simply don't count.
Sadly, there's something to that. Talmud Torah k'neged kulam is the exclusionary basis for their brotherhood. The Dati L'eumi crowd doesn't get the genuine devotion involved in T"T that drives this culture, and insist on tar and feathering them with hate-filled ideology instead of recognizing that its just a difference in priorities. Still... those who produce such ads definitely reek of antipathy towards the army.
Is demonizing a better word? I never said the standard hareidi attitude is hateful towards those outside of the Beis Midrash. You may know cases that are, but its not my impression, certainly not of a collective attitude. But it's definitely coming from religious tsahal'niks. Justifiably, you might say. I don't buy it. Ahavat l'rei'eikha is not only about those who share your shita. I believe we ALL should be working on it, elu v'elu ...
What's the deal with these fellows in the video? So easily distracted from their studies, and so easily tripping out into weird hallucinations with pedestrian soundtracks from goyish action movies.
Kind of disgusting. And, btw, it borders on self-sabotage in that they are encouraging people to be lazy and take the easy way out!! I think it might have the opposite effect on some people!. (Hopefully).
"Don't go to the army because it's easier to stay in Yeshivah"
is an official Charedi position is delusional.
The fact is that the Chachmey HaTorah have issued an unconditoinal bad on joining the IDF, for reasons which you clearly do not know (more on that below).
It happens to be that there is a bottom tier of Yeshivaleit who are not getting the geschmak of Yeshiva. For those who are near y'ush (despair) (which in itself is also assur) and are considering going to the IDF because of their lack of success in Yeshiva, this ad is simply an appeal to those emotions saying "Don't think you will enjoy that more."
But the reason that the makers of the ad is, of course, the ban by the Chachmey HaTorah on the IDF.
And, Natan, the question I have asked you and you have still not answered is:
From where do you know the WHOLE cheshbon behind the ban of the Chachmey HaTorah against joining the IDF that you can speak against the ban with such certainty and derision?
Just as I thought; you don't know. So by you're own admission, based on incomplete and unreliable hearsay alone, you are slandering Chachmey HaTorah and an entire community of 1 million Jews (plus those in chutz la'Aretz who agree with them). And whataboutism can not save you.
"the Chachmey HaTorah have issued an unconditoinal bad on joining the IDF, for reasons which you clearly do not know." Hang on. YOU say that YOU do not know the reasons. How do you claim to know that WE do not know them? You can't possibly know that, if you don't even claim to know what the reasons are!
".... How do you claim to know that WE do not know them? You can't possibly know that"
I know that I know SOME things that you don't, because you wouldn't have the self-control to stop yourself from ridiculing the Charedim (according to your misunderstanding) about them in your tirades if you did known them. Ergo, you don't know them. Your inability to figure this out is astounding.
(1) The Charedi Chachmey HaTorah have issued an unconditional ban on joining the IDF.
(2) They would be pleased if any Charedi person in the IDF would get out of the IDF.
(3) The Charedi Chachmey HaTorah would not be displeased if all Jews would become Charedi.
Therefore, what I said stands.
Perhaps you might want to say that if all or most of the Jews became Charedi and followed the Chachmey HaTorah, MAYBE then the Chachmey HaTorah might call for some sort of military to be organized (following the Torah, of course). But (a) that is just a maybe (as we have not heard about that) and (b) it's exactly as much theoretical as all/most of the Jews becoming Charedi, so it is not (yet) a topic of discussion.
(BTW, we're not talking only about "ritual" laws such as Shabbos, Kashrus, Tznius, etc.. Therefore, all the ways of "fixing" the IDF that people have been talking about is (quantitatively and qualitatively) a drop-in-the-bucket to the changes that need to take place. We've spoken about this in previous articles' comments.)
I'm not sure which chachmei hatorah you're referring to exactly, but the more important question is, instead of looking at the "chachmei hatorah," do you have a personal rebbi? What does he say about all this?
"(1) The Charedi Chachmey HaTorah have issued an unconditional ban on joining the IDF.
(2) They would be pleased if any Charedi person in the IDF would get out of the IDF."
Really? Is that why Rav Steinman would send some people to Nachal Chareidi?
"(3) The Charedi Chachmey HaTorah would not be displeased if all Jews would become Charedi."
Well, duh, they're Chareidi. And Yekkes would not be displeased if all Jews would take on TIDE, and Chassidim would not be displeased if all Jews would become Chassidish.
This is illegal in Israel to encourage people not to draft even and more than that they have live campaigns to raise money (https://www.charidy.com/tatkoltorah) and also are a registered Amutah (https://www.guidestar.org.il/organization/580699643)! If you can bring this to the attention of someone who could do something maybe we can get something positive done.
An Israeli Chabadnick avoids the draft and does Schlihut opening a Chabad location somewhere dedicated to assisting Jews of all stripes feel at home. What say you regarding this draft avoiding Chabadnick?
Would have been better if he had done the army and then shlichut.
At least he is no longer living in Israel and benefitting from government funds. Everyone is allowed to emigrate, if they so please, even if that means not drafting (as long as they do it before getting drafted).
So that's the way society works? We all get to decide what we want? What if I told the government, "You know, I don't agree where my taxes go. Tell you what: I'll give the same amount you take* to a charity of my choice. It may not even be in Israel." See how far you'd get. Do I have to go on about how it doesn't compare?
*Less, really. Is the Chabadnik risking his life? (Tragic cases excepted.)
How do you feel about merkaz or har h amor students who don't draft (half do and half don't. It's on an individual basis). You lump them together with chevron and ponevitch?
The clip is amazing:
Better to sit in a Beis Midrash wasting one's life (admittedly non-productive and bored) than to go where you feel needed and productively contribute to the rest of society.
Why?
Because if you go where needed, it won't fly anymore to sit and gossip all day, all the while packing on the pounds in the coffee room.
Instead, you will have to be disciplined, physically fit, and exert yourself to your physical limits.
What a horrible thought!
Yup, it's religiously better to remain soft, lazy, selfish, unhealthy, and non-productive.
Got it.
Bored? I happen to be an even bigger apikores! I am currently learning מנחות daily in a 3 man chavruta…..and we are having fun! (That’s is strictly forbidden and borders on kfira)😄
Torah learning is wonderful and can be the greatest pleasure and one of the most productive and worthwhile things one could do, but not for the target audience of this ad, for whom it's boring and unsatisfying.
Yeah. I'm not seeing the legendary love of learning for which those guys are so reknown.
(I tried posting this in response to Harold, but there seems to be some kind of glitch with my phone, so I'm just going to post in response to your message)
.רבי אברהם מן ההר מסכת נדרים דף מח
אבל מצות לימוד, שהוא ענין ציור הלב וידיעת האמת, עיקר הציווי הוא כדי לצייר האמת ולהתענג וליהנות במדע לשמח לבבו ושכלו, כדכתיב פקודי י"י ישרים משמחי לב. ומשום הכי אבל אסור לקרות בתורה ובנביאים ובכתובים, מפני שהם משמחים לבו על כרחו. הילכך לא שייך למימר במצות תלמוד דלא ניתן ליהנות, שעיקר מצותו היא ההנאה והתענוג במה שמשיג ומבין בלימודו.
אגלי טל מתוך ההקדמה
ומדי דברי זכור אזכור מה ששמעתי קצת בני אדם טועין מדרך השכל בענין לימוד תורה הקדושה ואמרו כי הלומד ומחדש חדושים ושמח ומתענג בלימודו אין זה לימוד תורה כל כך לשמה כמו אם היה לומד בפשיטות שאין לו מהלימוד שום תענוג והוא רק לשם מצוה. אבל הלומד ומתענג בלימודו הרי מתערב בלימודו גם הנאת עצמו. ובאמת זה טעות מפורסם. ואדרבא כי זה היא עיקר מצות לימוד התורה להיות שש ושמח ומתענג בלימודו ואז דברי תורה נבלעין בדמו. ומאחר שנהנה מדברי תורה הוא נעשה דבוק לתורה....
רבנו בחיי דברים כח,מז
תחת אשר לא עבדת את ה' אלהיך בשמחה. יאשימנו הכתוב בעבדו השי"ת ולא היתה העבודה בשמחה, לפי שחייב האדם על השמחה בהתעסקו במצות, והשמחה במעשה המצוה מצוה בפני עצמו, מלבד השכר שיש לו על המצוה יש לו שכר על השמחה, ועל כן יעניש בכאן למי שעובד עבודת המצוה כשלא עשאה בשמחה, ולכך צריך שיעשה אדם המצות בשמחה ובכוונה שלמה, וכן אמרו במדרש רות אלו היה יודע ראובן שהקב"ה מכתיב עליו (בראשית ל״ז:כ״א) וישמע ראובן ויצלהו מידם, בכתפו היה מוליכו לאביו, ואלו היה יודע אהרן שהקב"ה מכתיב עליו (שמות ד׳:י״ד) וראך ושמח בלבו, בתופים ובמחולות היה יוצא לקראתו, ואלו היה יודע בועז שהקב"ה מכתיב עליו (רות ב׳:י״ד) ותאכל ותשבע ותותר, עגלים פטומים היה מאכילה
Precisely.
Just think about how much this fellow's going to be costing the health system once he's middle-aged and 50 pounds heavier.
8-second run and on the verge of a heart attack -- at the age of 21?
What don't all of you get???
The Government is simply allowing Chabad to do community Service. By Chabad providing services to the Jewish nation, Food in way out places, Spiritual help, a place to rest on a business trip (for those that are R"L working for their piece of bread and not taking from others). That is Community service.
Any Frum Yeshiva boy can do the same, they were offered that - Working in a hospital, or old age home. Be a tutor to children that are having a hard time in Yeshivas. Even help boys that are OTD to make them proper citizens.
Buy NO these frummers want to do NOTHING. Remember some big, or huge, Rosh Yeshiva said Yeshiva boys are not changing diaper in Hospitals.
"But NO these frummers want to do NOTHING." That's right. You got it! The Chachmey HaTorah caved to the demands of the lazy Charedi community, and the entire reason for their ban on joining the IDF is because the Charedim want to do nothing.
Can I ask you from where you know the whole cheshbon of the Chachmey HaTorah behind their ban on joining the IDF?
The Chachney Hatorah did not at all cave to the demands of the Charedim.
THEY were the ones that push the idea - not to serve in the army.
Asking about do I know the entire chesbon of the Chachmey Hatorah?
No I don't know the entire cheshbon. All I know is the revealed part, Now 21 excuses, too weak to hold a gun, not milches mizitvah, the Gov't wants to shmad them, the food is not kosher enough, etc. etc. I am sure there are more. I will A'H keep track of them just as soon as they come out.
The bottom line is they are DRAFT DODGERS and have excuses, excuses, and more excuses. I seriously hate to bust your bubble - the REAL Chachmey Hatorah are the Dati Leumi Rebbes that walk step in step, arm in arm, with the rest of k'lal Yisroel. Hope you are not too upset to finally find this out.
(1)
"I seriously hate to bust your bubble - the REAL Chachmey Hatorah are the Dati Leumi Rebbes that walk step in step, arm in arm, with the rest of k'lal Yisroel. Hope you are not too upset to finally find this out."
I seriously hate to burst your bubble, but it is a recent religious-zionist and non-Jewish invention to "walk step in step, arm in arm with" people who reject part of the Torah (at best), or the whole Torah, or even spit on the Torah, or reject HKB"H. That was never the Torah way. I hope you are not too upset to finally find this out.
(2)
"The Chachmey Hatorah did not at all cave to the demands of the Charedim. THEY were the ones that push the idea - not to serve in the army."
I was not referring to rabbis who are n'guim by a nationalistic ideology that is completely foreign to the Torah.
(3)
"Asking about do I know the entire chesbon of the Chachmey Hatorah? No I don't know the entire cheshbon. All I know is the revealed part, ..."
Just as I thought. By your own admission you are slandering Chachmey HaTorah and an entire community of 1 million Jews (plus their supporters in chutz la'Aretz) based on incomplete and unreliable hearsay alone. BTW, much of what you call "the revealed part" was never even said by the Chachmey HaTorah, but incorrectly inferred by others.
(4)
"Now 21 excuses, too weak to hold a gun, not milches mizitvah, the Gov't wants to shmad them, ..."
See response #3 immediately above.
(4)
The bottom line is they are DRAFT DODGERS and have excuses, excuses, and more excuses."
If you want to think of following Chachmey HaTorah as an "excuse" that's between you and HKB"H. If you want to slander people based on that perversion then you are making your situation far worse.
I agree that this message is pretty messed up. Apparently, those making it feel the spiritual value of remaining in Yeshiva is so great that they're willing to appeal to the most base needs of those thinking about leaving it. Surely, they're not trying to sell Yeshiva life as one of relative ease; just sobering them up to the fact that they also won't find that ease in צה"ל.
Still - it's terrible חינוך, a gross 'חילול ה, and a grave insult to those who genuinely sacrifice for the nation via צה"ל. Perhaps indeed it was made by a troll ...
It's not just the messed up message, tho it's that too; the complete lack of self awareness of how stupid they come across is what's particularly jarring.
"Perhaps indeed it was made by a troll ..."
Tone deafness and ironic inappropriateness is the hallmark of such campaigns. If it were reasonable, it would be fake.
Well, Goldknopf just said in an interview that charedi families are living in dread of a knock on the door calling them up to the army.
He literally said "knock on the door."
I am increasingly convinced these people have *no clue* how the rest of Israel lives.
perhaps. But with political machinations driving so many, I wouldnt put it passed anti-hareidim to do this.
Not likely that they could get it right.
Um, yes, if they really loved learning they wouldn't need this ad. Why do you assume it's fake?
My wondering if it might be fake is because there clearly was not attempt to portray Yeshiva life positively. This Rav just growls "Lilmod!", robotically.
That's exactly what many Israeli charedim respond to: Strict authority telling you what to do without giving reasons.
Yes I agree this definitely seems like a fake, perhaps produced by Doctor Natan himself. It is an attempt to make fun of those "stuck" in Yeshiva who would rather be in the army.
" This Rav just growls "Lilmod!", robotically."
And that isn't accurate?
No
Obviously, this bachor doesn't "really love" being there. Just like many in the army don't "really love" being there either! At the same time, he's not anti-learning, just complaining about the pressure and discipline. To which this ad-maker is trying to tell him that THIS is not a reason to go to the army. Perhaps if he would have spoken about army service ideologically, there wouldn't have been any push-back.
All he's saying is that the calls for him to enlist are annoying and he may cave to them. He's not complaining about the "pressure" and "discipline" of learning at all, not the least because there is none. The whole point of the video is that learning is easy and army is hard.
Incorrect, Nachum. He begins with a whine about the עומס, which is followed by the growling Rav's monotone pressure to stop disturbing the atmosphere and get back to learning. Nothing about it being easy!
No, by עומס he explicitly means the pressure to enlist. Again, the whole point of the video is how easy things are in yeshiva.
And what about "I only took my eyes out of the gmara for a moment," as if to continue "why is he breathing down my neck?
warped. Go back over the dialogue, carefully
So it's about עומס and not being easy?
The ad says nothing about spiritual or religious values, only that being in yeshiva is an easier life than being in the IDF is.
incorrect. Nothing there about being easier. Just a different kind of עומס. Interesting the ppl are insisting on reading that in ...
"Nothing there about being easier. Just a different kind of עומס."
So the easing of עומס doesn't make it easier?
Precisely. That boy wants it easier, but the Rav doesnt let him off the hook... and the little reality-shock vision about what goes on in the army doesn't either. So now, you're left to choose which path of SELFLESS Jewish devotion will you choose?
"SELFLESS"
Providing someone else pays for it.
Correction. One is completely selfless protecting your homeland and fellow Jews.
The other is completely and utterly selfish. Only justified retroactively as being good for klal Yisrael but in truth it’s done for completely selfish reasons. Material and spiritual.
gottit. This is a prime example of דיון לכף חוב! Prejudice par excellence. Do you really believe every soldier is truly selfless?
That is *not* what he is saying.
Re. spiritual values - its understood by all who are in that system. Even passively participating in the great mitzvah of t"t, and quietly supporting the atmosphere of the proactive learners, is considered a tremendous זכות. NOT as a picnic, but as being part of a SPIRITUAL army. I know that will bug you, but that's the basic mindset. Haval to besmirch it to gain debate points.
The ad says nothing about spiritual values, nor spiritual contributions, nor does it appeal to spiritual values.
It speaks to those who want out of the system.
Disagree. It's addressing those who are CONSIDERING to get out of the system FOR AN EASIER LIFE, via the army. A bucket of ice water is then thrown at them. Army is not a ticket out of a tough noble life. It may even be degradingly difficult.
OK.
You win.
Yes, the ad appeals to those who don't see their lives as noble and shows them the nobility of remaining in learning.
BTW, I've got a bridge.
Wanna buy it?
There is nothing ironic about the name of this organisation. The fraternity that they feel is towards other Charedim. The rest of the Jewish People simply don't count.
Sadly, there's something to that. Talmud Torah k'neged kulam is the exclusionary basis for their brotherhood. The Dati L'eumi crowd doesn't get the genuine devotion involved in T"T that drives this culture, and insist on tar and feathering them with hate-filled ideology instead of recognizing that its just a difference in priorities. Still... those who produce such ads definitely reek of antipathy towards the army.
" The Dati L'eumi crowd doesn't get the genuine devotion involved in T"T that drives this culture"
Supremacy of one ideal doesn't negate other ideals and obligations.
What? "Tar and feathering"? "hate-filled ideology"? And at the same time as you admit that these ads are hateful themselves.
Sorry, some of us remember who calls their נישט אזאי ברידר "Nazis".
Is demonizing a better word? I never said the standard hareidi attitude is hateful towards those outside of the Beis Midrash. You may know cases that are, but its not my impression, certainly not of a collective attitude. But it's definitely coming from religious tsahal'niks. Justifiably, you might say. I don't buy it. Ahavat l'rei'eikha is not only about those who share your shita. I believe we ALL should be working on it, elu v'elu ...
Ahavta ...
What's the deal with these fellows in the video? So easily distracted from their studies, and so easily tripping out into weird hallucinations with pedestrian soundtracks from goyish action movies.
Definitely not שבט לוי material.
Let's not forget that Shevet Levi got its status only by...going to war.
משך חכמה?
I was thinking of the Egel HaZahav.
This video is obviously made by a troll
I called the number,, it's real.
Well, then I'm gonna call and troll them!
@ Jerry Steinfeld,
Go right ahead and troll them. Don’t wait an instant. Your trolling skills are shrinking.
Before you go and troll them, see my comment above starting "Anyone who thinks that".
The video could have still been made by a troll
Made that up, eh?
I was hoping for the best...
This would be a funny Purim spiel if it weren't so real. Pathetic.
Kind of disgusting. And, btw, it borders on self-sabotage in that they are encouraging people to be lazy and take the easy way out!! I think it might have the opposite effect on some people!. (Hopefully).
I thought this was a fake video by Meretz to smear the Chareidim. Amazingly, it looks like it's real. Ribbono shel oilam...
Anyone who thinks that
"Don't go to the army because it's easier to stay in Yeshivah"
is an official Charedi position is delusional.
The fact is that the Chachmey HaTorah have issued an unconditoinal bad on joining the IDF, for reasons which you clearly do not know (more on that below).
It happens to be that there is a bottom tier of Yeshivaleit who are not getting the geschmak of Yeshiva. For those who are near y'ush (despair) (which in itself is also assur) and are considering going to the IDF because of their lack of success in Yeshiva, this ad is simply an appeal to those emotions saying "Don't think you will enjoy that more."
But the reason that the makers of the ad is, of course, the ban by the Chachmey HaTorah on the IDF.
And, Natan, the question I have asked you and you have still not answered is:
From where do you know the WHOLE cheshbon behind the ban of the Chachmey HaTorah against joining the IDF that you can speak against the ban with such certainty and derision?
From where do you know the WHOLE cheshbon behind Zionism that you can definitively speak against it with such certainty and derision?
Just as I thought; you don't know. So by you're own admission, based on incomplete and unreliable hearsay alone, you are slandering Chachmey HaTorah and an entire community of 1 million Jews (plus those in chutz la'Aretz who agree with them). And whataboutism can not save you.
"the Chachmey HaTorah have issued an unconditoinal bad on joining the IDF, for reasons which you clearly do not know." Hang on. YOU say that YOU do not know the reasons. How do you claim to know that WE do not know them? You can't possibly know that, if you don't even claim to know what the reasons are!
".... How do you claim to know that WE do not know them? You can't possibly know that"
I know that I know SOME things that you don't, because you wouldn't have the self-control to stop yourself from ridiculing the Charedim (according to your misunderstanding) about them in your tirades if you did known them. Ergo, you don't know them. Your inability to figure this out is astounding.
You think no one should be joining the IDF at all?? That's a pretty extreme (and ridiculous imo) position, my duderino.
Read the conversation we had in the previous post
post.
3 things I know:
(1) The Charedi Chachmey HaTorah have issued an unconditional ban on joining the IDF.
(2) They would be pleased if any Charedi person in the IDF would get out of the IDF.
(3) The Charedi Chachmey HaTorah would not be displeased if all Jews would become Charedi.
Therefore, what I said stands.
Perhaps you might want to say that if all or most of the Jews became Charedi and followed the Chachmey HaTorah, MAYBE then the Chachmey HaTorah might call for some sort of military to be organized (following the Torah, of course). But (a) that is just a maybe (as we have not heard about that) and (b) it's exactly as much theoretical as all/most of the Jews becoming Charedi, so it is not (yet) a topic of discussion.
(BTW, we're not talking only about "ritual" laws such as Shabbos, Kashrus, Tznius, etc.. Therefore, all the ways of "fixing" the IDF that people have been talking about is (quantitatively and qualitatively) a drop-in-the-bucket to the changes that need to take place. We've spoken about this in previous articles' comments.)
I'm not sure which chachmei hatorah you're referring to exactly, but the more important question is, instead of looking at the "chachmei hatorah," do you have a personal rebbi? What does he say about all this?
"(1) The Charedi Chachmey HaTorah have issued an unconditional ban on joining the IDF.
(2) They would be pleased if any Charedi person in the IDF would get out of the IDF."
Really? Is that why Rav Steinman would send some people to Nachal Chareidi?
"(3) The Charedi Chachmey HaTorah would not be displeased if all Jews would become Charedi."
Well, duh, they're Chareidi. And Yekkes would not be displeased if all Jews would take on TIDE, and Chassidim would not be displeased if all Jews would become Chassidish.
This is illegal in Israel to encourage people not to draft even and more than that they have live campaigns to raise money (https://www.charidy.com/tatkoltorah) and also are a registered Amutah (https://www.guidestar.org.il/organization/580699643)! If you can bring this to the attention of someone who could do something maybe we can get something positive done.
Is there a way to do a denial of service attack on 02-579-5252?
More about this organization:
https://x.com/moshepargod/status/1819374204581732424
An Israeli Chabadnick avoids the draft and does Schlihut opening a Chabad location somewhere dedicated to assisting Jews of all stripes feel at home. What say you regarding this draft avoiding Chabadnick?
Would have been better if he had done the army and then shlichut.
At least he is no longer living in Israel and benefitting from government funds. Everyone is allowed to emigrate, if they so please, even if that means not drafting (as long as they do it before getting drafted).
There are Israeli Chabadnickim who serve in the IDF, like this hero of Am Yisrael who was recently murdered. In any event, it's more productive to discuss real issues rather than hypothetical examples. https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-whole-world-is-shaken-chabad-rabbi-murdered-in-uae-laid-to-rest-in-israel/
I mean, one of the rabbis at my campus Chabad did army service before schilhut. It's not that weird.
So that's the way society works? We all get to decide what we want? What if I told the government, "You know, I don't agree where my taxes go. Tell you what: I'll give the same amount you take* to a charity of my choice. It may not even be in Israel." See how far you'd get. Do I have to go on about how it doesn't compare?
*Less, really. Is the Chabadnik risking his life? (Tragic cases excepted.)
"So that's the way society works? We all get to decide what we want?"
No. The Torah and its Chachomim should decide. But certainly NOT a bunch of kofrim in the government.
Chabad at least shows solidarity.
Yep - that's the biggest issue
No, it isn't really.
How do you feel about merkaz or har h amor students who don't draft (half do and half don't. It's on an individual basis). You lump them together with chevron and ponevitch?
Exceptions should be for the exceptonal.
If haredi leadership had not demanded deferments for "ישיבות לנושרים", there wouldn't be such an outcry.
Right - we have Begin to thank for this situation. If there was still a cap on deferments, they would only go to real learners (or family....)
I don't like it. Heck, I'm not thrilled about hesder.
As it happens, most serve eventually.
Is that legal? They're using IDF uniforms to encourage people to break the law.
It's illegal to show an actual soldier in an ad, and uniforms usually have some slight difference. Not here, though.
If I'm not mistaken, I think anyone can buy an IDF uniform in an army-navy store. Some of the October 7th terrorists were wearing IDF uniforms!
Yes, but you can't use them in advertisements.