Perhaps Israel should experiment with a month in which Chareidim no longer learn on behalf of the country, and the rest of the country withdraws all police and military protection, as well as financial support, from the Chareidim? Seems fair, and we'll find out soon enough which side contributed more.
Wouldn't it be great for you if the only Jews who lived in Israel were either Chareidi or anti-religious secular Leftists? Then you would be the only Torah alternative, and people might consider overlooking your faults. Sad for you, but fortunately for the Jewish people as a whole, most non-Chareidim aren't anti-religious secularists. And frankly, the willingness of Chareidi parties over the years to join coalitions with the allegedly hated Leftists instead of the religion-respecting Likud and the religious Zionists puts you in a hypocritical position.
Uh, that was dumb. "Frankly, the willingness of non-chareidi parties over the years to join coalitions with the allegedly hated chareidi parasites instead of the leftists who served their country puts them in a hypocritical position."
Problem is, though, the Likud traditionalists and religious Zionists, though certainly not on board with Chareidiism, never disparaged Chareidim the way Chareidim disparaged the secular Leftist Zionists (not entirely without cause; the Laborites were in fact anti-religion, but the Chareidim upped the ante into insane territory). But you don't believe in history, so you wouldn't know that.
What was the title of the OP again? "Parasites". They have been calling the chareidim "parasites". "Leeches". "Bloodsuckers". This post is an article defending that, and the comments are full of religious Zionists enthusiastically agreeing and adding to the flattering terms. But the hypocrites are willing to sit in coalitions with the thieving Judenrats.
I should add that you probably are unaware that this is a discussion among adults. Feel free to say that someone's comment is dumb, but it's only going to confirm suspicions that your usual surroundings are crude and lacking in original thought. In fact, that realization has caused many people like you to switch sides.
I have a lot to say about that article, but I'll stick to the topic at hand. I didn't question Chareidim participating in Israeli democracy (though some Chareidim do and in fact don't participate). If I were Chareidi I would be pragmatic as well. The problem is that for decades, going back to the Yishuv, Chareidim disparaged the Labor Zionists in the most extreme terms (not entirely without cause; in fact the Labor Zionists did largely want to see Yiddishkeit disappear, and they could be ruthless in their methods). After Begin won in 1977, Israel became a very different place, and Chareidim should have been thrilled that they now had an alternative to dealing with a monolithic one-party state. Instead, they sold out for a few extra bucks. Makes me think they weren't entirely serious in all those previous decades, much like the Lefties who spent all election season telling us Trump was a Nazi but aren't running for their lives since the election.
You mean let the chareidim have full independence? I think there was a fight about that in the 1920s, and the Zionists won. Oh well. To the victor goes the Judenparasites..er..I should say spoils. I guess they didn't appreciate their victory then, but they sure appreciate it now.
"Full independence", nebech, brings with it responsibilities that haredi society would prefer to avoid. Like Blanche Dubois, they "have always depended on the kindness of strangers".
That's a relationship of mutual benefit. Israel buys American weapons, which is good for the American defense manufacturers, and gets feedback regarding its effectiveness or lack thereof in combat situations. America gets access to intelligence information it would not orherwise get.
The United States gives billions of dollars worth of aid to Israel at no cost. In addition to a military umbrella which Israel relies upon to engage in actions that it never would have otherwise considered, like we saw in this war. Aren't the Israelis such parasites? You can make up whatever stories you want about how you think it's a beneficial arrangement, just like the chareidim claim they benefit the governing coalition with their political clout, or they protect Israel with their Torah.
Meah Shearim was founded by Chareidi settlers 15 years before Herzl gave up on converting the Jews to xtianity and settled on zionism. There were Chareidi self defense organizations and Chareidi farming communities (eg Bnei Brak). Chareidim fought in Lechi and had their own units in 1948. The explicitly anti religious state made a deal that they won't be involved in politics beyond supporting Yeshivas and not joining Ben Gurion's "melting pot", and the only exclusively Jewish people in Israel (at the time, the Hilltop Youth are as well) won't try to influence the state or army, with the expectation that like the datiim that worship the state, they'd wither away to irrelevancy. Chareidim in America are richer than the average high tech secular CRUD development. Chareidim did fine before the state, Chareidim would do fine without the state.
The charedim never asked for independence. Stop making stuff up, or stop repeating whatever half-baked "history" you half-absorbed from Artscroll or whatever.
Their main thing is that they didn't want the Zionists in charge of things. I'm sure they would have been thrilled with independence, but didn't see it as an option. So you are proposing that the Zionists grant their wish, 100 years later. I'm sure if Israel tried that, it would be the end of Israel very soon.
That makes perfect sense. How could anyone know anything about the past, when they didn't personally witness it? Why, if only they could invent a discipline whereby people could somehow learn about the past they didn't witness......
Rabbi Slifkin, please continue to write and to be an advocate for those of us in Israel whose hearts are in such pain from the utter disregard of the Charedi community.
I think it is fair to truthfully note that they are a parasitic entity, even if you want to avoid the term in its specific context. They rely on the economics, education, and work of other people to function, as does a parasitic entity in the biological world.
As demonstrated by the gathering in Har Nof, the Israeli version of Charedi life is entrenched in fantasy and delusion. I have seen it firsthand. However the Anglo Charedi community differs here because, ultimately, some of them know better and -when they allow themselves to- they can see very clearly through the drivel and polemics. In their gut, they know something is wrong with the current equation. My husband had a conversation last week with a lovely Anglo Charedi businessman in our community, and he candidly admitted he feels awful that his sons aren't serving. He chose a Charedi path when he got to Israel from the US and now he feels stuck. He is able to acknowledge that the message of his sons being "warriors" in yeshiva is untrue. It keeps him up at night.
I think he speaks for a small but significant portion of families caught in the current Charedi system. I think that it is from this branch that change may ultimately happen. I will hope that they will find a way to make it so.
As someone who works with young, cognitively handicapped adults, I find it painfully ironic that many of them are striving to develop skills that will allow them to work and even to serve in the IDF, while young, able-bodied men demand financial support to stay out of the labor market and get army exemptions. עולם הפוך ראיתי.
My cousin, who lives in Rishon L'Tzion and whose own oldest is now in the IDF, once wrote a beautiful piece (she is a professional writer) about seeing the boy next door to them, who has Down's Syndrome, grow up and eventually join the IDF, how proud his mother (and he) was the day he first went off in his uniform.
A week or so ago someone wrote a lovely piece about two soldiers on the train, just back from combat in Gaza, teaching a disabled new soldier the ropes, answering all his questions.
You have that backwards. They're not allowed to work or go to school until they're 27. Clearly this "working with handicapped adults" is a 2 way education.
In my opinion, the position of the Haredi leadership is purely motivated by economics. They have built an entire economy around the yeshiva system, so many in the community depend on it and the real fear is that their economy will collapse, that is what they are trying to protect at all costs. As they famously often say in the US: "It's the economy, stupid"
Sure, even Jews can be antisemites. But that doesn't make all criticism of Jews antisemitic. And it doesn't become antisemitic just because the Jews being criticized wear black hats.
oh you're talking about me? I explicitly said in the post that the term should not be used. It's Rav Breuer who used it most recently. Are you criticizing him or me?
Honestly, I’d never heard of Rav Breuer before your post, but maybe he’s as misguided as you are here. Your title was offensive, and it’s tiring to see the way you constantly fixate on charedi news and use every chance to make repulsive comments about charedim. It’s clear you weren’t outright calling charedim parasites, but it felt like you were flirting with the idea, testing the waters.
This kind of obsessive focus on charedim, especially with terms as loaded as this, is reckless and harmful. Words like these carry weight, and given your reputation, using them as you did isn’t just irresponsible—it’s damaging. Just as Rav Breuer’s comments crossed a line, so do yours.
If you truly wanted a meaningful discussion, you’d find a better way than stirring up negativity and division. This relentless attack mode only fuels animosity and doesn't get anyone closer to real understanding.
This was a speech in front of a major audience and reported in the press. I think it deserves pointing out, and gets people much closer to a real understanding of what the charedi community is about. If it's tiring for you to read my posts, then don't!
And it's pointless to talk about a "meaningful discussion" because there's nobody to have it with.
Now, you claim that my posts are reckless and harmful and damaging. You don't specify what that means, but whatever it means, it's certainly a whole lot less harmful and damaging than the charedi approach.
What about people in black hats who riot, destroy public property funded by taxes paid by Jews, block roads and prevent other Jews from getting home or to work, then physically attack and abuse the (mostly) Jewish police force, cursing them, calling them Nazis and worse? Can we call these disruptors antisemites? Because these was the kind of behavior that characterized the original Nazis.
You mean litteraly one small minority group within Chareidi society? One that is reviled by the rest of Chareidim? Painting with quite the broad brush are we?
If they’re so reviled why haven’t any of your “Gedolim” put any of these miscreants in cheyrem? These aren’t your reviled folks, they’re the vanguard of your narcissistic, entitled society.
The thing is, both sides can play the game of accusing the other of "antisemitism". Because the acrimony is definitely there on both sides, and while the Israeli police force can be brutal, so are the haredi mobs, who are under no threat at all of recriminations for excessive behavior or hatefulness.
Can Slifkin be an idiot? Or is the term off limits?
What a unimportant article. This speech was clearly saying nothing more than that if they call us parasites, if anything they are the parasites. What's wrong with the phraseology? The ideology is wrong, agreed. But that has nothing to do with the title and trajectory of this stupid article. But the semantic background was never the point anyways, was it?
And btw, even though it's true that those serving are not parasites, we both agree (I hope) that those that are actually learning are helping the world. Maybe there are too many who are not. Maybe the system is broken. But that goodness comes to the world through those devoted to Torah and Avoda, is that something anyone disagrees with?
Actually, most of the dati community does not believe that their Torah helps at all. Because there is no merit to Torah that is learned in place of other obligations. It's like Torah being learned instead of kinnos on Tisha B'Av.
Wow, you know nothing about Torah, clearly. "Most of the dati community believes" - sheeesh, what an empty statement. Do you know that there is no obligation to go to war other than in very limited circumstances that no longer apply, and even then, if you were scared or newly married, etc., you could walk off and that was fine? Do you know why? Because Hashem was fighting and we didn't need "numbers." So the Israeli govt says that it expects 100,000 disabled and mentally harmed veterans by 2030 (and even when we have an army they don't show up for 36 hours), so the Charedim are supposed to stop praying for us to join that insanity? Also there are more leftists exempt from the army for all manner of excuses than Charedim - are they parasites? At least don't quote the Torah and say inane things like "Most of them think" without any basis. Also Dati Leumi and Charedim have opposite ideologies, so why are you quoting one like it has an relevance to the other? What the Dati Leumi "think" couldn't be more inapposite.
"Do you know that there is no obligation to go to war other than in very limited circumstances that no longer apply"
and do you know that over 60,000 citizens are unable to go home (for those whose homes are still standing) because of incessant rocket attacks? No one should go to war over that?
Even those that are learning full time and are needed to become leaders of Torah? No exemption for anyone at all? Most of the dati community agrees to that??
This needs to be kept in mind. Why has the חברת הלומדים produced so little Torah leadership, and so little original scholarship? Where are the "broad shoulders" that have tradotionally characterized true גדלות? It's all paralysis and conformity.
I'll let Jerry respond to your point (though I'd ask about those who are learning full time, they aren't supposed to be?), but what about his point that Rabbi Breuer was just saying an "if anything..."? But not actually calling anyone a parasite. Besides the obvious faulty logic, what are you trying to call out?
Yes goodness comes to the world from Torah and Avodah.
However, there are a lot of other things that goodness comes -- from doing Mitzvohs,-- From Praying -- Being an honest person -- Respecting your Neighbors and community --Giving Tzdukah, helping the poor, etc.
And the highest way goodness comes to the world is by doing good things for your neighbor and Community and being a mentch to others.
Sorry to bust your huge bubble that good things only comes from learning Torah. The world is a better place if each and everyone reaches a beautiful level of doing good, refining his character, while being a light on to others around him..
How does a Draft Dodger sitting around fit into this character of being a good person - where we can say "Hashem and Humans are blessed he is around"?
I didn’t say it’s *only* from Torah learning, and I agree that our connection to God comes from many places. But the foundation of a personal relationship with Him starts with His word—understanding what matters to Him, what He cares about, and what He expects of us. It’s like how you build a relationship with a spouse: you learn what they love, what they value, and you build a deeper connection based on that knowledge. That’s why God gave us the Torah—to give us a way to understand His values, His ways, and to draw closer to Him. I’m not denying the importance of other aspects of life, but the emphasis on this relationship, the centrality of Torah and service to God, is deeply lacking in the broader non-Chareidi world, and it’s not a minor point.
The idea of the Shevet Levi, while its practical application to things like the current war might be misguided, carries a powerful message. The Torah describes a model where the Aron (where the Torah is housed) and the Mishkan are placed at the center, with the Kohanim entirely devoted to the service of God, and the Leviim positioned around them, all with the rest of Israel surrounding that holy core. This structure shows that while everyone has their role, the focus is on the Torah and the service of God. And that focus is meant to be reflected in everyone’s personal life too—Torah study and Avodah should be the center of our day.
This focus doesn’t diminish the importance of chesed, community, or social responsibility. In fact, the Kohanim and Leviim themselves should understand their roles as שלוחי דידן—agents of the people—helping to guide Israel in maintaining the true focus on God’s service. But this focus is what establishes the hierarchy. It doesn’t mean that anyone is "better" than anyone else, but there is a recognition that some are leaders within the realm of spiritual service, and others have different roles, equally important, but not in the same sphere. The Kohanim, Leviim, and Torah leaders are the leaders in Avodas Hashem—not necessarily in business, politics, or war, but in what truly matters to a Jew: serving God.
It’s not a bubble we live in—it’s the truth. And if people refuse to acknowledge that our focus as Jews is Avodas Hashem, then I honestly don’t know how you’re going to have a meaningful conversation with a Chareidi who takes that focus seriously. I believe most people here understand this point, but it often gets lost in the noise of other discussions.
That said, yes, there are problems within Chareidi society, and one of them may be a lack of participation in broader societal roles or secular work. But if we can’t first get on the same page about these core values—about the centrality of Torah and Avodah—then why are we jumping ahead to other issues? When we sidestep the foundational values, we’re only obscuring the real conversation.
The irony of course is anyone who claims to be the real ptotector is the one responsible for the losses during the war. There's obviously something lacking in their Torah learning
R' Sha'ul Lieberman in his essay "How Much Greek in Jewish Palestine?" wrote regarding the ethical dilemma of the two men in the desert (BM 62b):
"The problem posed by the Stoics assumes a legal character with the Rabbis. None of the Rabbis suggested that the owner of the water should deliver it to the other person; for as soon as the water is surrendered, the other, on his part, must act in the same manner as the first. The fact that he was not the original owner of the water does not give him any precedence over the former. The only
question is whether they should both share the water, and subsequently perish together, or whether the owner should retain his property entirely for himself. The Stoic principle of utilitas—that is, that of preferring the person "whose life is more valuable, either for his own sake or for that of his country " — is applied by the Rabbis only in case a third person has to make his choice between two other human beings. Thus the Babylonian Talmud (Nazir 47b) states explicitly that the "Anointed for Battle" is to be saved first (that is, before his superior, the Sagan, the adjutant to the High Priest), because the welfare of the community depends upon him; in other words, because his life is more valuable to his country."
While not donating money is a common sense response, it is so gentle that is unlikely to provoke real change. Applying the logic of חז׳׳ל here, Israelis ought to apply a policy of finite water. Israel has very limited security resources, and communities which do not contribute to it should not have security allocated to them. Move iron dome batteries, police, and military away from Charedi areas. Order security forces not to respond to incidents in Charedi cities. Not to worry; their learning should protect them.
Such measures would be, of course, conditional on the community fulfilling its draft responsibility. No reason Charedi community shouldn't be able to fill the new Hasmonean Brigade.
Now, it's not clear what he means that "they are parasites". What does he mean? That they are protected by other's Torah study? But they do pay taxes and support such Torah study. They're not only on the receiving end. They contribute too. That's symbiosis. Not parasitism.
Now, if the term symbiosis is rejected with the claim that even financial success is provided by Torah study, then why was the retraction of daycare subsidies denounced as גזרת המעונות?!
I'll also note that this whole parasite talk is rather tasteless and is evocative of playground taunting. And the response just evokes the old "I know you are, but what I am?" retort. Even the president trash talks with his immature "garbage" remarks. Class act. But hey, civil discourse is dead and ironically, the most toxic thing someone can say is "very fine people".
You’ve been spending too much time visiting Trump-deranged websites. The president elect never called anyone garbage nor has he called any truly vile and despicable folks “very fine people”.
I think you've completely misread him. It was *Biden* who called people garbage, which is exactly what Ephraim was talking about, while commenting on the irony that we're supposed to think that Trump's actually inoffensive use of "very fine people" was somehow worse than that.
Thanks, but my point was subtler than that. I was commenting within the confines of the leftist urban myth that distorted Trump's "very fine people" comment. All of Trump's explicit sophomoric trash talk is forgettable in comparison. But he says one thing nice (albeit about the wrong people), and that's considered vulgar. (It was Trump at his most civil, his least contentious, in which he was attempting to cool down a heated debate.)
To be sure, the more refined speech of Trump's opponents (e.g. the sanctimonious distortions of what "very fine people" meant) have the color of civility, but are just as toxic and vulgar compared to what Trump dishes out. The difference is that Trump doesn't deceive when he bloviates hot empty air. You know exactly what he means. There's an honesty there, because those lies (if they be lies) are on the surface. I can't say the same for the cultured savagery of the others.
He’s called third world countries $hithole countries. He called Nazi demonstrators very fine people. He had dinner with Nick Fuentes and Yee known antisemites and many many other comments disparaging different cultures and minorities. He’s a vile disgusting piece of filth himself. God protect the US against him
Most third world countries are s-holes, even though many of them are, in fact, rich in natural resources. Time after time, what holds them back are vested interests and bad policies with good intentions.
"The anti-rationalist position that it’s actually the tens of thousands of charedi yeshiva students who are protecting Israel, .... I think that the only possible approach is to show them that their belief is not as sincere as they think it is."
I think that you're correct. If you show them that their belief is not as sincere as they think, perhaps they will do teshuvah, learn harder, and have real bitachon in HaShem and know that their learning really counts.
Why do they bitch and whine when asked to cancel or limit bein hazmanim, for instance? Israeli reservists with businesses, jobs, and families have been called up to do as many as 300 days of reserve duty in Gaza and on the Lebanese border, risking life and limb. Where is this "achdus" of which you speak? Where is the devotion? Because what I see are people who, when given a choice, do not leave their comfort zone.
I know plenty of people who do not "bitch and whine about cancelling or limiting bein hazmanim. By the way, me and my friends spend a lot of bein hazmanim in the beis midrash - even when their is not a war. And many of the batei midrash in my neighbourhood are full and noisy with learning during bein hazmanim. So you are speaking loshon horo about a lot of people. I do not envy you or your punishment in this world and the next.
I'm not sure how what you wrote has much to do with my comment. I also did not say a word about "achdus" that you should say I "speak" about it. And your comment about bein hazmanim -if it would be true- I was agreeing with Slifkin, that the Charedim sohuld do teshuvah and be so sincere about their belief and bitachon that you would not see any contradiction in their behaviour at all.
Here's some whataboutism for you: You and Slifkin also don't leave youre Charedi-bashing comfornt zone. :)
I was not countering your point per se, rather expressing horror at the article cited here elsewhere referring to the rosh yeshiva who got pushback from some of his talmidim and their families about shortening their bein hazmanim. The fact that *anyone* would object to cancelling a break during this war, which has caused so much suffering and hardship, and in which no haredi yeshiva student has lost life, limb, or coffee break, should nauseate any sensitive person. Particularly anyone who values תורת ישראל and who realizes the damage that such people are doing to יהדות and to bringing the world under מלכות ה.
If you and your friends are spending extra hours in the בית המדרש, if you were maximizing Torah study during בין הזמנים, then כל הכבודל לכם, this criticism was not meant for you.
I might ask why, if full-time study is your current role in life, you seem to be spending your time in the comments section. (Me, I work at a job with a lot of stops and starts, and I can't let myself get deeply distracted for too long.)
I've never been one for comfort zones myself. They leave me bored and unsatisfied. I have high expectations of myself, and indeed, of every other physically and mentally sound person in the universe, particularly of religious Jews, and I have little patience for
You know, it's amazing how much what we hear/read affects how we perceive reality. I really thought about it, and I realize that I heard NOT A SINGLE complaint about the cancellations or early finishes of bein hazmanim - neither from children nor from teenagers nor from adults.
So, I'm reallly wondering where or from whom you have heard such complaints. Perhaps you heard "about" some fictional complaining from slanderers such as Slifkin and the like and believed it. Or maybe you heard one (or a very few) outlier(s) actually complain and jumped to generalize.
And even if it would be as true and widespread as you wold like to believe... oh the loshon horo.
Someone that spends most of his time hoodwinking the rest of society and has some old people he thinks is great, telling him - 100% right, the word "perhaps" is a non starter.
If you can't struggle through all the hebrew, at least look at the graphics. Quite enlightening data: they work fewer hours, earn less, and are more unemployed. And only pay on average 125 shekels per person in income tax, as opposed to 1,241 shekels for a secular family.
Rabbi Slifkin in how many more articles will you be writing about the removal of Chareidi children from there parents or physically assaulting them in the streets? Seems thats certainly the path you're moving down
I am sure the next thing you will say is that getting a job like everyone else or serving like everyone else is "stealing" a young man or woman. A burden shared by everyone else is not oppression when you have to shoulder it. It is called simple human decency and if your lifestyle cannot survive adult responsibility you need to reconsider aspects of it
It's right out there here in front. Nobody is demanding that all children be taken away Fr m the Charedim. Nobody. Your lies are increasingly shrill and ridiculous, liar
The cause is the printing press that the parasites feed off of. They are not even the main parasites. The main parasite is the federal reserve. Therefore we adopt Bitcoin to protect us from monetary debasement and parasitism of the cantillionaires.
However one feels about whether this post's "parasitim" insinuations went too far or suffered from insufficient distancing, I suggest that one and all listen to the video embedded within the linked article.
The speeches are nothing short of astonishing, from the words spoken, to the tone, to the expressions on the dais participants' faces, to the rank distortion of the very source upon which their building is built.
Those who think there is room for compromise and negotiation regarding haredi yeshiva student participation in the draft are particularly advised to listen. And keep in mind that this forum was held in an enclave many of whose families are originally from Anglo countries.
And BTW, R' Breuer (unlike R' Slifkin) is absolutely unequivocal.
I thought it was a pretty nice speech, even if I don't agree with its intensity. He was saying that the bachurim need to take responsibility for the failings in the war because they are the ones causing the problems and they need to be mischazek
Perhaps Israel should experiment with a month in which Chareidim no longer learn on behalf of the country, and the rest of the country withdraws all police and military protection, as well as financial support, from the Chareidim? Seems fair, and we'll find out soon enough which side contributed more.
Hey dear fellows! Exciting news! You'll be glad to hear that the Irrationalist has written up a similar analysis of using the term Nazi! See it here!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/can-jews-be-nazis
Wouldn't it be great for you if the only Jews who lived in Israel were either Chareidi or anti-religious secular Leftists? Then you would be the only Torah alternative, and people might consider overlooking your faults. Sad for you, but fortunately for the Jewish people as a whole, most non-Chareidim aren't anti-religious secularists. And frankly, the willingness of Chareidi parties over the years to join coalitions with the allegedly hated Leftists instead of the religion-respecting Likud and the religious Zionists puts you in a hypocritical position.
Uh, that was dumb. "Frankly, the willingness of non-chareidi parties over the years to join coalitions with the allegedly hated chareidi parasites instead of the leftists who served their country puts them in a hypocritical position."
Problem is, though, the Likud traditionalists and religious Zionists, though certainly not on board with Chareidiism, never disparaged Chareidim the way Chareidim disparaged the secular Leftist Zionists (not entirely without cause; the Laborites were in fact anti-religion, but the Chareidim upped the ante into insane territory). But you don't believe in history, so you wouldn't know that.
What was the title of the OP again? "Parasites". They have been calling the chareidim "parasites". "Leeches". "Bloodsuckers". This post is an article defending that, and the comments are full of religious Zionists enthusiastically agreeing and adding to the flattering terms. But the hypocrites are willing to sit in coalitions with the thieving Judenrats.
I should add that you probably are unaware that this is a discussion among adults. Feel free to say that someone's comment is dumb, but it's only going to confirm suspicions that your usual surroundings are crude and lacking in original thought. In fact, that realization has caused many people like you to switch sides.
IMO, it's not hypocritical to live in a democracy to help your cause. See: https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/chareidim-in-a-democracy
LMK if you disagree and why...
I have a lot to say about that article, but I'll stick to the topic at hand. I didn't question Chareidim participating in Israeli democracy (though some Chareidim do and in fact don't participate). If I were Chareidi I would be pragmatic as well. The problem is that for decades, going back to the Yishuv, Chareidim disparaged the Labor Zionists in the most extreme terms (not entirely without cause; in fact the Labor Zionists did largely want to see Yiddishkeit disappear, and they could be ruthless in their methods). After Begin won in 1977, Israel became a very different place, and Chareidim should have been thrilled that they now had an alternative to dealing with a monolithic one-party state. Instead, they sold out for a few extra bucks. Makes me think they weren't entirely serious in all those previous decades, much like the Lefties who spent all election season telling us Trump was a Nazi but aren't running for their lives since the election.
Halevai we could run that experiment
You mean let the chareidim have full independence? I think there was a fight about that in the 1920s, and the Zionists won. Oh well. To the victor goes the Judenparasites..er..I should say spoils. I guess they didn't appreciate their victory then, but they sure appreciate it now.
"Full independence", nebech, brings with it responsibilities that haredi society would prefer to avoid. Like Blanche Dubois, they "have always depended on the kindness of strangers".
Like the parasitic state of Israel depends on the kindness of America?
That's a relationship of mutual benefit. Israel buys American weapons, which is good for the American defense manufacturers, and gets feedback regarding its effectiveness or lack thereof in combat situations. America gets access to intelligence information it would not orherwise get.
You're being intentionally thick again.
The United States gives billions of dollars worth of aid to Israel at no cost. In addition to a military umbrella which Israel relies upon to engage in actions that it never would have otherwise considered, like we saw in this war. Aren't the Israelis such parasites? You can make up whatever stories you want about how you think it's a beneficial arrangement, just like the chareidim claim they benefit the governing coalition with their political clout, or they protect Israel with their Torah.
Israel survived a long time without US aid. As a US voter, I would prefer that Israel be allied with us instead of the alternative of Russia or China.
It's a mutually beneficial relationship.
The United States does not give a single dollar to Israel.
Meah Shearim was founded by Chareidi settlers 15 years before Herzl gave up on converting the Jews to xtianity and settled on zionism. There were Chareidi self defense organizations and Chareidi farming communities (eg Bnei Brak). Chareidim fought in Lechi and had their own units in 1948. The explicitly anti religious state made a deal that they won't be involved in politics beyond supporting Yeshivas and not joining Ben Gurion's "melting pot", and the only exclusively Jewish people in Israel (at the time, the Hilltop Youth are as well) won't try to influence the state or army, with the expectation that like the datiim that worship the state, they'd wither away to irrelevancy. Chareidim in America are richer than the average high tech secular CRUD development. Chareidim did fine before the state, Chareidim would do fine without the state.
Funny, I don't recall the Chareidim campaigning for full independence. Sounds Zionist to me.
Because you weren't around then. The 1920s were about 100 years ago. You don't sound that old.
The charedim never asked for independence. Stop making stuff up, or stop repeating whatever half-baked "history" you half-absorbed from Artscroll or whatever.
Their main thing is that they didn't want the Zionists in charge of things. I'm sure they would have been thrilled with independence, but didn't see it as an option. So you are proposing that the Zionists grant their wish, 100 years later. I'm sure if Israel tried that, it would be the end of Israel very soon.
"I'm sure..."
Certainly is not fact.
That makes perfect sense. How could anyone know anything about the past, when they didn't personally witness it? Why, if only they could invent a discipline whereby people could somehow learn about the past they didn't witness......
Rabbi Slifkin, please continue to write and to be an advocate for those of us in Israel whose hearts are in such pain from the utter disregard of the Charedi community.
I think it is fair to truthfully note that they are a parasitic entity, even if you want to avoid the term in its specific context. They rely on the economics, education, and work of other people to function, as does a parasitic entity in the biological world.
As demonstrated by the gathering in Har Nof, the Israeli version of Charedi life is entrenched in fantasy and delusion. I have seen it firsthand. However the Anglo Charedi community differs here because, ultimately, some of them know better and -when they allow themselves to- they can see very clearly through the drivel and polemics. In their gut, they know something is wrong with the current equation. My husband had a conversation last week with a lovely Anglo Charedi businessman in our community, and he candidly admitted he feels awful that his sons aren't serving. He chose a Charedi path when he got to Israel from the US and now he feels stuck. He is able to acknowledge that the message of his sons being "warriors" in yeshiva is untrue. It keeps him up at night.
I think he speaks for a small but significant portion of families caught in the current Charedi system. I think that it is from this branch that change may ultimately happen. I will hope that they will find a way to make it so.
As someone who works with young, cognitively handicapped adults, I find it painfully ironic that many of them are striving to develop skills that will allow them to work and even to serve in the IDF, while young, able-bodied men demand financial support to stay out of the labor market and get army exemptions. עולם הפוך ראיתי.
There is indeed a special program for these young people who have a better grasp of thier adult responsibilities than any Chareid godol…
My cousin, who lives in Rishon L'Tzion and whose own oldest is now in the IDF, once wrote a beautiful piece (she is a professional writer) about seeing the boy next door to them, who has Down's Syndrome, grow up and eventually join the IDF, how proud his mother (and he) was the day he first went off in his uniform.
A week or so ago someone wrote a lovely piece about two soldiers on the train, just back from combat in Gaza, teaching a disabled new soldier the ropes, answering all his questions.
You have that backwards. They're not allowed to work or go to school until they're 27. Clearly this "working with handicapped adults" is a 2 way education.
In my opinion, the position of the Haredi leadership is purely motivated by economics. They have built an entire economy around the yeshiva system, so many in the community depend on it and the real fear is that their economy will collapse, that is what they are trying to protect at all costs. As they famously often say in the US: "It's the economy, stupid"
Mustn't forget power as a motivation
Can people be anti-semites? Or is that term off limits?
Sure, even Jews can be antisemites. But that doesn't make all criticism of Jews antisemitic. And it doesn't become antisemitic just because the Jews being criticized wear black hats.
I think calling (or suggesting to call) other Jews as parasites is a step too far.
So you're saying that Rav Breuer is antisemitic?
oh you're talking about me? I explicitly said in the post that the term should not be used. It's Rav Breuer who used it most recently. Are you criticizing him or me?
Honestly, I’d never heard of Rav Breuer before your post, but maybe he’s as misguided as you are here. Your title was offensive, and it’s tiring to see the way you constantly fixate on charedi news and use every chance to make repulsive comments about charedim. It’s clear you weren’t outright calling charedim parasites, but it felt like you were flirting with the idea, testing the waters.
This kind of obsessive focus on charedim, especially with terms as loaded as this, is reckless and harmful. Words like these carry weight, and given your reputation, using them as you did isn’t just irresponsible—it’s damaging. Just as Rav Breuer’s comments crossed a line, so do yours.
If you truly wanted a meaningful discussion, you’d find a better way than stirring up negativity and division. This relentless attack mode only fuels animosity and doesn't get anyone closer to real understanding.
This was a speech in front of a major audience and reported in the press. I think it deserves pointing out, and gets people much closer to a real understanding of what the charedi community is about. If it's tiring for you to read my posts, then don't!
And it's pointless to talk about a "meaningful discussion" because there's nobody to have it with.
Now, you claim that my posts are reckless and harmful and damaging. You don't specify what that means, but whatever it means, it's certainly a whole lot less harmful and damaging than the charedi approach.
Shui -
Maybe so. But neither should we hesitate to call a spade a spade.
Particularly if that spade is being used as a קרדום לחפור בה.
A “spade” is not a “parasite.”
Funny how many chareidim use Torah as a spade. Do they realize they are shoveling manure with it…?
manure is great for fertilizer...
I think you’re wrong…
Do you know who R .S . Raphel Hirsch is and the R. Breuers, his family and descendents?
Seems to be a descendant. But that doesn't mean too much. https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94_%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%99%D7%90%D7%A8_(%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%92%D7%99%D7%97)
What about people in black hats who riot, destroy public property funded by taxes paid by Jews, block roads and prevent other Jews from getting home or to work, then physically attack and abuse the (mostly) Jewish police force, cursing them, calling them Nazis and worse? Can we call these disruptors antisemites? Because these was the kind of behavior that characterized the original Nazis.
You mean litteraly one small minority group within Chareidi society? One that is reviled by the rest of Chareidim? Painting with quite the broad brush are we?
Funny that such a small group can bring out such big numbers.
You mean ten or twenry thousand out of a million plus? Yeh thags a small minority
How about the hundreds of thousands shirking their duties to their fellow Jews and their country.
@DovKagan,
If they’re so reviled why haven’t any of your “Gedolim” put any of these miscreants in cheyrem? These aren’t your reviled folks, they’re the vanguard of your narcissistic, entitled society.
Tell me you know nothing about chareidi Society without actually saying it this comment is bereft of any actual reality
@Dov Kagan,
Why would you say that? Try responding to my questions instead of foaming non-sequitor responses.
The thing is, both sides can play the game of accusing the other of "antisemitism". Because the acrimony is definitely there on both sides, and while the Israeli police force can be brutal, so are the haredi mobs, who are under no threat at all of recriminations for excessive behavior or hatefulness.
Best example... Soros.
It is self-evident that words are fraught with meaning, and must be chosen with great care.
But with that said...
Getting hung up on words and terms is a convenient ploy that people use to deflect from the issues themselves, and to avoid having to deal with them.
Can Slifkin be an idiot? Or is the term off limits?
What a unimportant article. This speech was clearly saying nothing more than that if they call us parasites, if anything they are the parasites. What's wrong with the phraseology? The ideology is wrong, agreed. But that has nothing to do with the title and trajectory of this stupid article. But the semantic background was never the point anyways, was it?
And btw, even though it's true that those serving are not parasites, we both agree (I hope) that those that are actually learning are helping the world. Maybe there are too many who are not. Maybe the system is broken. But that goodness comes to the world through those devoted to Torah and Avoda, is that something anyone disagrees with?
Actually, most of the dati community does not believe that their Torah helps at all. Because there is no merit to Torah that is learned in place of other obligations. It's like Torah being learned instead of kinnos on Tisha B'Av.
Wow, you know nothing about Torah, clearly. "Most of the dati community believes" - sheeesh, what an empty statement. Do you know that there is no obligation to go to war other than in very limited circumstances that no longer apply, and even then, if you were scared or newly married, etc., you could walk off and that was fine? Do you know why? Because Hashem was fighting and we didn't need "numbers." So the Israeli govt says that it expects 100,000 disabled and mentally harmed veterans by 2030 (and even when we have an army they don't show up for 36 hours), so the Charedim are supposed to stop praying for us to join that insanity? Also there are more leftists exempt from the army for all manner of excuses than Charedim - are they parasites? At least don't quote the Torah and say inane things like "Most of them think" without any basis. Also Dati Leumi and Charedim have opposite ideologies, so why are you quoting one like it has an relevance to the other? What the Dati Leumi "think" couldn't be more inapposite.
"Do you know that there is no obligation to go to war other than in very limited circumstances that no longer apply"
and do you know that over 60,000 citizens are unable to go home (for those whose homes are still standing) because of incessant rocket attacks? No one should go to war over that?
Even those that are learning full time and are needed to become leaders of Torah? No exemption for anyone at all? Most of the dati community agrees to that??
How many "leaders of Torah" have emerged from a full-time learning society?
This needs to be kept in mind. Why has the חברת הלומדים produced so little Torah leadership, and so little original scholarship? Where are the "broad shoulders" that have tradotionally characterized true גדלות? It's all paralysis and conformity.
I'll let Jerry respond to your point (though I'd ask about those who are learning full time, they aren't supposed to be?), but what about his point that Rabbi Breuer was just saying an "if anything..."? But not actually calling anyone a parasite. Besides the obvious faulty logic, what are you trying to call out?
Hey Jerry,
Yes goodness comes to the world from Torah and Avodah.
However, there are a lot of other things that goodness comes -- from doing Mitzvohs,-- From Praying -- Being an honest person -- Respecting your Neighbors and community --Giving Tzdukah, helping the poor, etc.
And the highest way goodness comes to the world is by doing good things for your neighbor and Community and being a mentch to others.
Sorry to bust your huge bubble that good things only comes from learning Torah. The world is a better place if each and everyone reaches a beautiful level of doing good, refining his character, while being a light on to others around him..
How does a Draft Dodger sitting around fit into this character of being a good person - where we can say "Hashem and Humans are blessed he is around"?
I didn’t say it’s *only* from Torah learning, and I agree that our connection to God comes from many places. But the foundation of a personal relationship with Him starts with His word—understanding what matters to Him, what He cares about, and what He expects of us. It’s like how you build a relationship with a spouse: you learn what they love, what they value, and you build a deeper connection based on that knowledge. That’s why God gave us the Torah—to give us a way to understand His values, His ways, and to draw closer to Him. I’m not denying the importance of other aspects of life, but the emphasis on this relationship, the centrality of Torah and service to God, is deeply lacking in the broader non-Chareidi world, and it’s not a minor point.
The idea of the Shevet Levi, while its practical application to things like the current war might be misguided, carries a powerful message. The Torah describes a model where the Aron (where the Torah is housed) and the Mishkan are placed at the center, with the Kohanim entirely devoted to the service of God, and the Leviim positioned around them, all with the rest of Israel surrounding that holy core. This structure shows that while everyone has their role, the focus is on the Torah and the service of God. And that focus is meant to be reflected in everyone’s personal life too—Torah study and Avodah should be the center of our day.
This focus doesn’t diminish the importance of chesed, community, or social responsibility. In fact, the Kohanim and Leviim themselves should understand their roles as שלוחי דידן—agents of the people—helping to guide Israel in maintaining the true focus on God’s service. But this focus is what establishes the hierarchy. It doesn’t mean that anyone is "better" than anyone else, but there is a recognition that some are leaders within the realm of spiritual service, and others have different roles, equally important, but not in the same sphere. The Kohanim, Leviim, and Torah leaders are the leaders in Avodas Hashem—not necessarily in business, politics, or war, but in what truly matters to a Jew: serving God.
It’s not a bubble we live in—it’s the truth. And if people refuse to acknowledge that our focus as Jews is Avodas Hashem, then I honestly don’t know how you’re going to have a meaningful conversation with a Chareidi who takes that focus seriously. I believe most people here understand this point, but it often gets lost in the noise of other discussions.
That said, yes, there are problems within Chareidi society, and one of them may be a lack of participation in broader societal roles or secular work. But if we can’t first get on the same page about these core values—about the centrality of Torah and Avodah—then why are we jumping ahead to other issues? When we sidestep the foundational values, we’re only obscuring the real conversation.
The irony of course is anyone who claims to be the real ptotector is the one responsible for the losses during the war. There's obviously something lacking in their Torah learning
R' Sha'ul Lieberman in his essay "How Much Greek in Jewish Palestine?" wrote regarding the ethical dilemma of the two men in the desert (BM 62b):
"The problem posed by the Stoics assumes a legal character with the Rabbis. None of the Rabbis suggested that the owner of the water should deliver it to the other person; for as soon as the water is surrendered, the other, on his part, must act in the same manner as the first. The fact that he was not the original owner of the water does not give him any precedence over the former. The only
question is whether they should both share the water, and subsequently perish together, or whether the owner should retain his property entirely for himself. The Stoic principle of utilitas—that is, that of preferring the person "whose life is more valuable, either for his own sake or for that of his country " — is applied by the Rabbis only in case a third person has to make his choice between two other human beings. Thus the Babylonian Talmud (Nazir 47b) states explicitly that the "Anointed for Battle" is to be saved first (that is, before his superior, the Sagan, the adjutant to the High Priest), because the welfare of the community depends upon him; in other words, because his life is more valuable to his country."
While not donating money is a common sense response, it is so gentle that is unlikely to provoke real change. Applying the logic of חז׳׳ל here, Israelis ought to apply a policy of finite water. Israel has very limited security resources, and communities which do not contribute to it should not have security allocated to them. Move iron dome batteries, police, and military away from Charedi areas. Order security forces not to respond to incidents in Charedi cities. Not to worry; their learning should protect them.
Such measures would be, of course, conditional on the community fulfilling its draft responsibility. No reason Charedi community shouldn't be able to fill the new Hasmonean Brigade.
אין משיבין על האגדה
Now, it's not clear what he means that "they are parasites". What does he mean? That they are protected by other's Torah study? But they do pay taxes and support such Torah study. They're not only on the receiving end. They contribute too. That's symbiosis. Not parasitism.
Now, if the term symbiosis is rejected with the claim that even financial success is provided by Torah study, then why was the retraction of daycare subsidies denounced as גזרת המעונות?!
I'll also note that this whole parasite talk is rather tasteless and is evocative of playground taunting. And the response just evokes the old "I know you are, but what I am?" retort. Even the president trash talks with his immature "garbage" remarks. Class act. But hey, civil discourse is dead and ironically, the most toxic thing someone can say is "very fine people".
@ Ephraim,
You’ve been spending too much time visiting Trump-deranged websites. The president elect never called anyone garbage nor has he called any truly vile and despicable folks “very fine people”.
I think you've completely misread him. It was *Biden* who called people garbage, which is exactly what Ephraim was talking about, while commenting on the irony that we're supposed to think that Trump's actually inoffensive use of "very fine people" was somehow worse than that.
Thanks, but my point was subtler than that. I was commenting within the confines of the leftist urban myth that distorted Trump's "very fine people" comment. All of Trump's explicit sophomoric trash talk is forgettable in comparison. But he says one thing nice (albeit about the wrong people), and that's considered vulgar. (It was Trump at his most civil, his least contentious, in which he was attempting to cool down a heated debate.)
To be sure, the more refined speech of Trump's opponents (e.g. the sanctimonious distortions of what "very fine people" meant) have the color of civility, but are just as toxic and vulgar compared to what Trump dishes out. The difference is that Trump doesn't deceive when he bloviates hot empty air. You know exactly what he means. There's an honesty there, because those lies (if they be lies) are on the surface. I can't say the same for the cultured savagery of the others.
He’s called third world countries $hithole countries. He called Nazi demonstrators very fine people. He had dinner with Nick Fuentes and Yee known antisemites and many many other comments disparaging different cultures and minorities. He’s a vile disgusting piece of filth himself. God protect the US against him
He never called Nazi demonstrators fine people. It's a myth that was debunked long, long ago, but that didn't keep Obama from repeating it.
And face facts, some cultures and minorities and countries are pretty bad.
No need to debate or to debunk.
Just read the transcript:
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/15/full-text-trump-comments-white-supremacists-alt-left-transcript-241662
If you're brave, check out the actual transcript of the "grab 'em by..." talk.
Most third world countries are s-holes, even though many of them are, in fact, rich in natural resources. Time after time, what holds them back are vested interests and bad policies with good intentions.
"The anti-rationalist position that it’s actually the tens of thousands of charedi yeshiva students who are protecting Israel, .... I think that the only possible approach is to show them that their belief is not as sincere as they think it is."
I think that you're correct. If you show them that their belief is not as sincere as they think, perhaps they will do teshuvah, learn harder, and have real bitachon in HaShem and know that their learning really counts.
Why do they bitch and whine when asked to cancel or limit bein hazmanim, for instance? Israeli reservists with businesses, jobs, and families have been called up to do as many as 300 days of reserve duty in Gaza and on the Lebanese border, risking life and limb. Where is this "achdus" of which you speak? Where is the devotion? Because what I see are people who, when given a choice, do not leave their comfort zone.
You're a real work of art.
I know plenty of people who do not "bitch and whine about cancelling or limiting bein hazmanim. By the way, me and my friends spend a lot of bein hazmanim in the beis midrash - even when their is not a war. And many of the batei midrash in my neighbourhood are full and noisy with learning during bein hazmanim. So you are speaking loshon horo about a lot of people. I do not envy you or your punishment in this world and the next.
I'm not sure how what you wrote has much to do with my comment. I also did not say a word about "achdus" that you should say I "speak" about it. And your comment about bein hazmanim -if it would be true- I was agreeing with Slifkin, that the Charedim sohuld do teshuvah and be so sincere about their belief and bitachon that you would not see any contradiction in their behaviour at all.
Here's some whataboutism for you: You and Slifkin also don't leave youre Charedi-bashing comfornt zone. :)
I was not countering your point per se, rather expressing horror at the article cited here elsewhere referring to the rosh yeshiva who got pushback from some of his talmidim and their families about shortening their bein hazmanim. The fact that *anyone* would object to cancelling a break during this war, which has caused so much suffering and hardship, and in which no haredi yeshiva student has lost life, limb, or coffee break, should nauseate any sensitive person. Particularly anyone who values תורת ישראל and who realizes the damage that such people are doing to יהדות and to bringing the world under מלכות ה.
If you and your friends are spending extra hours in the בית המדרש, if you were maximizing Torah study during בין הזמנים, then כל הכבודל לכם, this criticism was not meant for you.
I might ask why, if full-time study is your current role in life, you seem to be spending your time in the comments section. (Me, I work at a job with a lot of stops and starts, and I can't let myself get deeply distracted for too long.)
I've never been one for comfort zones myself. They leave me bored and unsatisfied. I have high expectations of myself, and indeed, of every other physically and mentally sound person in the universe, particularly of religious Jews, and I have little patience for
You know, it's amazing how much what we hear/read affects how we perceive reality. I really thought about it, and I realize that I heard NOT A SINGLE complaint about the cancellations or early finishes of bein hazmanim - neither from children nor from teenagers nor from adults.
So, I'm reallly wondering where or from whom you have heard such complaints. Perhaps you heard "about" some fictional complaining from slanderers such as Slifkin and the like and believed it. Or maybe you heard one (or a very few) outlier(s) actually complain and jumped to generalize.
And even if it would be as true and widespread as you wold like to believe... oh the loshon horo.
Perhaps - not happening!u
Someone that spends most of his time hoodwinking the rest of society and has some old people he thinks is great, telling him - 100% right, the word "perhaps" is a non starter.
And I presume you've seen the latest from the Central Bureau of Statistics: A secular Israeli family pays 11 times more taxes than a charedi family.
https://www.calcalist.co.il/local_news/article/r1kpp1d11ye#google_vignette
If you can't struggle through all the hebrew, at least look at the graphics. Quite enlightening data: they work fewer hours, earn less, and are more unemployed. And only pay on average 125 shekels per person in income tax, as opposed to 1,241 shekels for a secular family.
I don't know if people can be parasites, but the cumulative effect of the chareidi sector on Israeli society does appear to be parasitic.
Rabbi Slifkin in how many more articles will you be writing about the removal of Chareidi children from there parents or physically assaulting them in the streets? Seems thats certainly the path you're moving down
what a strange comment.
Not really. Anyone with eyes can see where you posts are going
An even stranger comment.
This guy is a rabbi?? Oy, Erev Rav destroying the minds of Jews. Not much longer for these kofrim
with kippot, bezrat Hashem.
Here is my question - you see a nutcase saying you advocate stealing children from their parents,
Why when you go through the comment you just don't take the idiot off??
What benefit do you or for that matter anyone one else have from stupidity?
Saul, it's not so easy, they can just create a new login and post the same stupidity again.
You clearly didnt read what i wrote. Also very classy to misrepresent what i said and call me a nutcase.
Please,stop telling lies, liar
Shiw me the lie
I am sure the next thing you will say is that getting a job like everyone else or serving like everyone else is "stealing" a young man or woman. A burden shared by everyone else is not oppression when you have to shoulder it. It is called simple human decency and if your lifestyle cannot survive adult responsibility you need to reconsider aspects of it
It's right out there here in front. Nobody is demanding that all children be taken away Fr m the Charedim. Nobody. Your lies are increasingly shrill and ridiculous, liar
You should probably look into reading comprehension
I am, among other things, a researcher and historic interpreter as well as having been a a librarian. My reading comprehension is excellent.
Well i recommend you read my comment again
"Bitcoin fixes this"
The cause is the printing press that the parasites feed off of. They are not even the main parasites. The main parasite is the federal reserve. Therefore we adopt Bitcoin to protect us from monetary debasement and parasitism of the cantillionaires.
However one feels about whether this post's "parasitim" insinuations went too far or suffered from insufficient distancing, I suggest that one and all listen to the video embedded within the linked article.
The speeches are nothing short of astonishing, from the words spoken, to the tone, to the expressions on the dais participants' faces, to the rank distortion of the very source upon which their building is built.
Those who think there is room for compromise and negotiation regarding haredi yeshiva student participation in the draft are particularly advised to listen. And keep in mind that this forum was held in an enclave many of whose families are originally from Anglo countries.
And BTW, R' Breuer (unlike R' Slifkin) is absolutely unequivocal.
I thought it was a pretty nice speech, even if I don't agree with its intensity. He was saying that the bachurim need to take responsibility for the failings in the war because they are the ones causing the problems and they need to be mischazek
This article is sick and gross, God help us.